October 29, 2024 • 55 mins
Pregnancy and Infant Loss Month serves as a poignant reminder of the unique grief experienced by families who have faced such heartbreaking losses. Julie Lehman joins hosts Joel Demott and Andy Lehman to discuss the significance of this month and the importance of acknowledging and supporting those affected. The conversation emphasizes the need for greater...
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
On this episode, we interview Julie Lehman regarding Pregnancy and Infant Loss Month.
You're listening to the Dudes and Dads Podcast, a show dedicated to helping men be better
dudes and dads by building community through meaningful conversation and storytelling.
And now, here are your hosts, Joel DeMott and Andy Lehman.
(00:24):
Joel, Andrew, how are you today?
You know, Andy, if I were any better, there'd be two of me.
Wow, that's a dad joke.
I don't know. Here's the deal. I heard that the first time a few years back.
Who says that? Danny Yoder. Our friend Danny Yoder says that. I was trying to remember who.
(00:47):
My dad normally just says, "If I be any better, I be you."
Nice.
So.
My grandfather said, "I'm finer than frog's hair." That was fun.
Wow. That's the things I learned today.
Yeah, it was so much. Before we jumped on here, we were talking about couches.
Davenport, more specifically.
Davenport.
Wow. Hold on.
(01:09):
It was amazingly entertaining.
I messed up. There we go. I was done on the YouTube stream. I was showing two of me, which is interesting because I don't want to see me twice.
I could take that. Easy on the eyes, Andy.
Well.
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Dudes and Dads Podc-- Pod-- the podcast. Or clash. Podcash?
(01:32):
Clash.
Podclash. What? A podclash?
That could be interesting.
That could be a thing. I don't know what it is, but it sounds interesting. We should look into it at a later time.
Glad to have each and every one of you here.
It is always our great, great honor to welcome my friend Andy's spouse.
(01:54):
My friend too.
And your friend?
Yeah.
Some would say your best friend.
Sure. Yes.
You would say that.
Nice shirt.
Yes. Sorry.
Hi Julie. Thanks for coming.
Yes. Thanks for asking me to be here.
Yeah.
But before we get into that, we need to remind you about our sponsor for this episode.
Please can we?
(02:15):
Yes, let's do it.
Support comes from Everence Financial, dedicated to helping members navigate their life mission and finances through services that positively impact our community.
Learn more at Everence.com/michiana.
Securities offered through Concourse Financial Group, Securities Incorporated, FINRA.
Member, FINRA SIPC.
Thank you so much, Everence. We love you. We appreciate you.
(02:37):
And we do our very best to give these, these ad credits to you.
And Andy is really, he's really zeroed in.
The FINRA SIPC just rolls right off the tongue.
Except for this time I messed it up.
Andy, what's going on? What's, what's in your life? Anything interesting going on?
(02:58):
We have Julie in the studio. That's interesting.
Julie, what's going on in your life right now? Anything interesting going on?
What is the season of life right now for you guys?
We're in the season between tennis and basketball.
Do you have a little bit of a break? Is this a little break?
We're getting a little bit of a break. We had some false softball in there, but that's over now.
So we have about three weeks where we can come up for air.
(03:20):
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
Our air is, let me see. We have no sports right now.
I think I'm being, I think I'm accurate on this. Well, but we did just find out that indoor, indoor soccer starts, starts next weekend.
It was Matthew's last, last outdoor game today.
(03:43):
I was like, so Matthew, like, oh, we're pretty close to foot, the futsal season, indoor soccer season.
He's like, yeah, next game is Saturday. And I was like, you mean this coming?
Wow.
But hey, you know what? Here's the deal. It's in town. It's only a seven minute drive from our house.
I'll chalk that up as a win. You all know when the less travel, the better.
(04:05):
So a little bit, we've got a little bit of a time here to catch our breath, which is nice feeling that way too.
Marching band for us.
Going to state.
Going to state. Goshen Crimson, Marching Crimson. Boy, oh boy. That's exciting.
Lucas Oil Stadium. That's going to be a thing.
(04:26):
Here you come, Lucas Oil.
Yeah. Yeah. I've, I've never been down on the field there and I am a member, a proud member of the marching band parent pit crew.
Lift with your legs, my friends.
Boy, oh boy. We have, we have a couple of props. They're just big giant ramps actually this year.
They're just, they're built out and it takes, it takes an army to get some things moved.
(04:49):
And yeah, yeah. So we, by the end of the season, I'll be going to see Dr. Clark Kaufman over at Avon Chiropractic.
Not a sponsor, but he should be. We still, we still love and appreciate our chiropractors. I might, I might name them.
Well, Hey.
(05:11):
Yeah. Welcome. Welcome to the show, Julie. We've had you on a couple of times actually.
I was going to bring this up to you both. Annie Downs now has a hall of fun when someone has been on her show so many times they get their name on a plaque in the studio.
Okay. Okay. So I'm just going to plant that idea.
Here's what we should do. Cause here's what I think we could do.
(05:33):
We could have like this larger thing and then they get like the bronze.
Listen, even if it was my name and Sharpie on masking tape.
Consider it done. That's one of the perks of being married to one of the ghosts.
Well, yes. So though we are at the very, we're at the tail end of the month of October, October is pregnancy.
(05:59):
And I always want to make sure I say this correctly because I think the title is one of the longer titles, pregnancy and infant loss month where we remember, recognize and have a conversation.
Around a group of people that years ago if I'm really honest, I thought very little about because this tends to be a group who are not well, if I'm accurate, really not well represented kind of, you know, in terms of like loss communities.
(06:31):
I mean, and obviously for, you know, it's not a comparison game, but it's like, you know, we talk a lot about cancer loss. We talk a lot about, I mean, everything violent crime cancer.
There's a lot of communities where these big impactful, you know, these losses that occur.
And definitely the loss of a child also is a, is a, is a major serious thing.
(06:56):
It has been sort of a hallmark of this show that every year that we, we acknowledge it because obviously for you, Andy and Julie it's a central, central part of your life story as a, as a family.
And it has so deeply impacted our family as well being alongside of you guys.
And and again, I, as, as has been the case year after year partly, I think as I'm sure it's been with you guys, once you are aware of a thing, then you see it and experience it everywhere all over the place.
(07:33):
And I've just been ongoing ongoing. Great. I've been coming increasingly grateful of at least gaining in my understanding, gaining in my sensitivity and just, I don't know, getting my, my thoughts around around this a little bit more.
So, you know, Julie, with you on now, I, the one, the one thing that I always think about when we hit this month is maybe some new stories or new things that you've encountered recently around this.
(08:05):
Cause I feel like even though there is this kind of central theme, we're talking about pregnancy and infant loss, the stories are all unique. The stories are that you guys have, have interacted with.
What's kind of made an impression, you know, an impression on you guys, I think here maybe in the last year or two or something that's kind of front of mind for you that has maybe even reminded or affirmed why, why it is, you know, Julie, when years ago, starting with hope mommies and all of that, which we can definitely need to talk more about.
(08:42):
And I always want to remind people of, yeah, what kind of is something kind of a new thing, something you've encountered a new awareness or maybe something you've been reminded of in a powerful way here and maybe in the last year or so.
First back up to even, you know, I think what you were alluding to there at the beginning about this, this type of loss is so unique that when you talk about, you know, the loss community in general, loss is a loss is a loss.
(09:13):
And so like the hierarchy of grief is not a thing. However, it is so unique. And so really say what you will about social media, but the last 12 to 15 years have completely changed how pregnancy and infant loss is, is, well, it has given it a voice and it's brought people together in a way that I don't think it was just possible.
(09:37):
Prior to that. And so, you know, that along with just shifts and change in culture and people being willing to be vulnerable has really changed the landscape for pregnancy and infant loss.
And so what I've seen, especially in the last couple of years is what, what does it look like? You know, when we, when our loss first happened, it was 10 years ago. And so we were kind of what I felt like was in that first wave of people who were finding support through social media, through the internet, being able to connect with others.
(10:12):
And so now what does that look like? It almost feels like we're into gen two of, you know, it feels weird, but you know, it feels like Andy and I are kind of like the mothers and the fathers of, of, of, you know, coming alongside the, that next generation of people that are experiencing loss.
Because the people that are losing, I mean, just mathematically speaking, the families that are losing, in some cases, they're, they're losing a child are a decade younger than you guys are.
(10:42):
Yes. Yeah. We're a little bit out of touch. A little bit.
Yeah. And so, and for them, I mean, as you guys, by God's grace, you know, continue to grow, grow your, grow your family after the loss of Macy. For some people, it is, it is their first, it is their, it is their first, you know, their first child, their first love. That is, that is their experience.
(11:13):
What, what, um, as you guys have engaged with this community and, you know, we've had just a number of conversations.
What is, what, what are your biggest concerns with, with this, this group of folks? And maybe there are, there's some unique concerns within this loss community, or maybe there's some general ones, but what, you know, and this is kind of out to both of you, just what, when you encounter people that have had this experience, what, what worries you about, about that?
(11:55):
You can go ahead.
Okay. As far as like worries and concerns go, um, I don't want to get political, but there has been no change in how we track pregnancy and infant loss. There's been no change in how administrations see pregnancy and infant loss.
(12:22):
The amount of money that is being given in researching. Um, it's kind of just always been chalked up to, well, these things happen. And so a worry, a concern of mine is that, um, in the United States in particular, we're getting outpaced by a lot of other countries who are throwing money at the research and at the awareness and at the things that women should be aware of.
(12:51):
Even in their pregnancy of things to look for and things to be, um, yeah, concerned about. Um, so there is some concern in that on that side of things. Um, I think then, uh, the concern then also flips to as a person of faith. Uh, I don't see that the church has caught up with some of the other support that, uh, people are finding in a lot of other places.
(13:17):
Yeah, that is sorry. I would have anything that, you know, whatever.
I was going to say something similar, just as far as like with guys, I haven't seen a whole lot of guys. You know, that's one of the things that I experienced when, when we lost Macy is there wasn't a lot of support for just me.
There was, we went to a support group that was mainly geared for our kids and they had an adult support group there, but there wasn't really much in the way of just dudes. And so I've, I've seen a little bit in that going on.
(13:50):
I've worked one-on-one with a few people, but for me, like I don't see the wide support, like with hope mommies and other, other support groups around like that. Yeah. Yeah. I, I do wonder, um, cause I, yeah, I've, I've had this, uh, I've had a few other experiences, I think similar to, um,
(14:15):
just, just wondering why faith communities sometimes are behind the eight ball in this, in this area, particularly where, you know, in the traditions that we would be a part of, um, taking care of the, you know, the there's the widow, the orphan, the widow, the orphan and the poor.
Um, you know, and then it's, and then somehow there seems to be this other, this other category. I'll, I'll say this. I won't. Um, when I pastored here at this, at this church, I think, um, there, there was, I don't know what, what was what the season was, but like slowly finding out all of these women who had, um,
(15:04):
who had lost children this way and had never shared that with anybody. Um, and didn't, and didn't think for whatever, I'm sure a myriad of reasons for whatever reasons of the, but these, I would look at these individuals and say, man, they were in close community with other, other people, other women, other families who did not know this story. And they had held on to that.
(15:26):
held on to that or they didn't know the depth of which the grief what or the
pain it was like oh yeah we knew that thing happened to you but right moved on
right yeah yeah I mean I've heard as I'm sure I'm sure you guys have I mean I so
gosh this will go way back I will never I will never forget this and this is I
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can say this now cuz there's no I think I feel like there is enough time that
has passed I can put it out there and it that I still have a strong reaction to
this when I think about it but enough time has passed I mean I remember when
when Macy passed and when I was making I because again I had I had two jobs at
(16:10):
the time at the time I had to make had to make arrangements to like get time
off her day off to come in and to officiate the funeral service right and
so obviously I have to go to my boss and I have to say like have to explain the
situation they were great about it but um you know they asked question I was
like you know this is my friends my friends are these are my friends and
that's what's going on and then just really won't be there for them and then
(16:31):
and then the question was how old how old is she and then whatever Oh how old
you were at the time and and then the sponsors like oh well she can have more
yeah yeah yeah and there's no replacement yeah yeah yeah and I just
yeah like like but but I think that's honestly I think that is the thought
(16:55):
mm-hmm even in like in faith communities oh yeah I have definitely heard church
folks oh yeah talk that way yeah yeah and and it doesn't like I did partly I
just want to be generous and maybe too generous but it's like I don't think you
really know what what you're saying yeah yeah but it's like it's like if you if
you have a really high view of life mm-hmm and and of a view that God has
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intricately designed this human form in in like the miracle of life and of itself
only for that to not come to fruition man of all people of all people the
church should be standing at the front yeah of that line and saying this is a
(17:42):
this is a monumental loss and I you know I was thinking of as I do I say I have
weird thought thinking about the sun the Talmud there's this this theological
conversation around and this in particular is a conversation around
murder and but the loss of life and murder but there is this view that to
(18:03):
lose a single life is to lose an entire universe because of because of all of
the descendants and everybody that might follow that person right and so and
that's like again a unique cover it's a biblically formed perspective I think
that I think holds up for Christians as well and you know so if that is if that
is the case of I think I really think that we should maybe it's a challenge to
(18:27):
kind of bring to bring that perspective more to the forefront to really think
through yeah how we respond how we respond to people and that's so much of
this conversation I think is helpful I'm always looking to like try to help
people think a little more critically and fully about yeah absolutely and I
mean we Andy and I have from the jump ten years ago have always wanted to lead
with grace and to recognize that when somebody is hurting especially as deeply
(18:53):
as what we were people just really do they they really just want you to feel
better and and so we always have to remember that but yes people aren't
gonna say things people are going to not really maybe have that fully formed
thought process behind what they're saying but their intentions are good and
(19:14):
whenever we're given the opportunity to choose are their intentions good or
malicious we're gonna fall on their intentions were good
philosophers says never never assume maliciousness where stupidity will
suffice
(19:35):
that's a interesting way of giving yeah kind of speaking to the giving the
people the benefit of the doubt yeah um Julie I wonder for you vocationally I'm
really curious where now that you are pastor Julie Lehman yes where your
(19:55):
pastoral vocation and the loss of your daughter intersect oh man I is there I
don't even think it's an intersection I think it's just a complete collision yeah
yeah I I don't see that I mean God is God so he was gonna lead and do what he
was going to do but I don't see a path for myself coming into pastoral ministry
(20:21):
without without that I mean even so initially when I became a pastor I was
pastor of care which I think kind of makes sense when you're thinking about
the type of loss that we've experienced and then just some other you know life
experiences along the way that would be kind of a natural path oh yeah somebody
who's needed a lot of care is gonna you know give out of that but even now as
(20:43):
I've moved into connections and it's a lot more of you know meeting with new
people to our church and getting them involved it's still the same thing
because people all have something in their life and so I'm able to use you
know that tender spot in my story to be able to make a connection with somebody
because there's a tender place that they have to yeah you know it could be any
(21:07):
number of things but yeah and I think I think for me too it's it I've used that
while I'm not in professional that's not my job is pastoral care pastor or
whatever I think that my story with Macy our story with Macy has helped me be I
mean I'm a number two I mean any of Graham so I'm caring for people anyways
(21:29):
right but I think that that's just to kind of encourage that I've got to see
more the realistic side of what to do when people are hurting yeah yeah and and
I think that's part of the reason I'm trying to become the Stephen minister
now because I think that that yeah speaks well I mean I'm out of my hurt
and hurt and brokenness yeah I can help others so yeah that that's where I'd say
(21:54):
it affects me I I'm it's why I mean of the many reasons that I love you guys
and just I'm so grateful for you I I I'm intrigued by it's a skill that I think
in my pastoral ministry days and really and still and still is the case a skill
that I'm trying to develop is the how do you want to call it the emotional
(22:18):
courage to go to those places with people with a level of I don't know what
I'm gonna use the word confidence I guess to be able to confidently step
into those places obviously it's just it's a it's a work of humility and care
but I just know that I mean you know we don't live in a culture that's too
(22:42):
readily research to talk about death with people yeah very easily sure and
you know and man in every corner of our culture it feels like we're trying to
we're trying to beat death escape death walk around death but it will happen
(23:04):
yeah it will happen every single one of us the the the impact though the
hardship though is when it comes when it comes way before we you know way before
we would we would expect it to and obviously in the case of a child and
infant loss you know hope mommy's the community you're dealing with is you
(23:26):
know you know birth birth or pre pre birth to a wage - yeah so I mean all of
those losses just feel like gut punch yeah why God why yeah this you know it
like the game was over before and really began sort of sort of feeling how and
(23:54):
I'm sure you've had those conversations oh yeah so many of them yeah what have
those been like and what if what if you like what have you said what it would
have been the conversation around it yeah I mean that seems to be like the
conversation in my mind actually or and even in my experience as I've talked
with people and so you know what do you say I mean you don't say a lot you
(24:17):
listen you know you listen and you validate and in coming from a
perspective of somebody who's been there you know I can say I know what you're
feeling and what you're feeling is normal again as a person of faith so I
often talk a lot about what does it look like to be mad at God and to be mad with
(24:40):
God and so there's a huge there's a huge difference there when I'm being mad at
God I'm putting up a wall and I'm not giving him the opportunity to speak back
into that and and then when I'm mad with him then you know I'm I'm mad and I'm
giving it to him and but I'm recognizing he has broad shoulders and his love for
(25:01):
me is it's not it's not changing conditional upon your yeah how nice
you're gonna be yeah and then I'm also allowing him space yeah to do what only
he can do and and to allow him to speak into that and and you know to mold my
heart and so but really truly like what I am saying to people what those
conversations look like it's it's just a lot of listening and it's a lot of yeah
(25:26):
just encouraging people to talk being present mm-hmm you guys feel like
there's we've talked about this before the you know kind of the models of
stages of grief mm-hmm timelines cut to a certain degree you know a
(25:47):
systematizing of loss really nice idea yeah because we we have a little bit of
a fascination and attraction to that piece right like you're gonna you know
these are the these are the things what what you both have pointed out to me
time and time again and a good and a good reminder is is that most of the
(26:11):
grief stage models as they exist are with people who number one is chronic
often chronic illness rated no the end is coming yeah right which is a
different experience I think yeah your guys's experience was everything is
fine 37 going to 38 pregnancy I we've lost we've lost our child
(26:34):
literally overnight right and and I think you both quickly found out that
like those paradigms were just not yeah helpful they were not in the place where
you were yeah yeah I mean specifically like the Kübler Ross like the five
stages of grief like that her study is it's great but it's specifically
(26:55):
targeted towards people who received a terminal cancer diagnosis so you have to
be really careful that you don't take that and just broadly apply that to
everybody now there there are still really good things about that and I
think for the most part that each of those stages like all people that are in
grief will experience those at different times but again we have to be careful we
talk about stages the stage to me says we're gonna do this and then you're
(27:19):
gonna move on to this and then you go into that and the reality is you're
gonna bounce back and forth yeah probably for the rest of your life
interfering degrees into each of those things so what what does grief look like
for the two of you now Andy take this one yes he just had a fresh experience
so yeah so we were we were actually in our Stephen minister training on
(27:43):
Saturday we had a longer training which just feels like this has got to bring
bring some things to the front for you so so yeah and so we were actually even
talking so that there was two modules we were going over one was grief and one
was depression and and during the Stephen minister training you do some
like role-playing land like scenarios right yeah and and the scenario like we
(28:07):
just talked about this we talked about the stages like not stages but like
waves of grief where like especially at the beginning you have you don't it's
like you're standing at the ocean with your back to it you don't know it's
coming it's gonna come it may just wash up against your feet but it may knock
you over yeah and never know when that's and you never know what's gonna happen
we're just talking about that yeah and we were going through this scenario or
(28:30):
this thing and I was one-on-one with somebody else and it wasn't even about
like sure it's like a loss of a mother was the was the thing and I was the
person was supposed to be receiving care mm-hmm and in it like there was
something about doctors and being mad at the medical staff and immediately like I
I lost it like I was I hardcore cried yeah and like that for me like I was not
(28:50):
expecting that sure out of nowhere yeah and like for me yes it was just
interesting like because I hadn't thought about it and I hadn't experienced
that full like overtaking like great like grief emotion where you're just
coming on you for a long time and all of a sudden yesterday it was it was there
mm-hmm so much so that like I had to walk up out of the room for a little bit
(29:13):
yes I couldn't do it Wow I think that's it I think grief these days it looks
like for the most part it's just our life mm-hmm it often 99% of the time
does not I mean it's just been so integrated into us you know stillbirth
is just a part of our story and Macy is just a part of you know our life and and
(29:38):
so it's not a big deal but but then every once in a while and it's getting
to a point where it's farther and farther apart yeah which is which is I
mean it's a good thing it's an interesting emotion though but yeah well
at some point you feel also like okay my my not loving this person enough that
(29:58):
because I'm not experiencing these daily yeah times and so it is an interesting
emotion where you're not having it it's it's good because you're not crying
every day but it's also interesting because like oh it am I still
remembering my loved one I've heard some I mean I've heard children specifically
if they've lost a parent like at a young at a young age them
(30:21):
like having concerns because the memory seat because they were young and the
memory is seeming to fade for them as they get older and then they're being
sort of this get this guilt this worry this concern about about that
specifically it is that it maybe that's your appointment is that a concern that
(30:43):
you guys ever have or is it a concern that you have heckle even with your own
with your own your other your other kids I don't know if that's if that's come up
in in discussion I would say for me that was a concern for myself earlier earlier
on and I really like had to wrestle through that and I'm at a place of peace
with that right now and like I was saying like to me it's become it's just
(31:05):
she is such a normal everyday part of my life that that I don't worry about that
for myself I don't I don't want to speak for Andy but yes I do have that concern
for our kids which Reagan is here in the studio with us so I want to be careful
about what I put on my kids but that definitely is a concern of like you know
(31:25):
what will what will that look like when when they leave home what will that look
like when they are dating people what will that look like at their wedding
what will that look like when my own daughter is expecting a child like that's
stuff that is way out way way out in the future but it does I mean it does come
(31:48):
to my mind yeah and I think I think for me at one point it was starting to feel
like that a little bit where it's like oh I'm gonna because because it's not as
much my everyday is it is you Julie with your involvement and hope mommy's and
things like that but but I think now it's not as much yeah I mean it's just
(32:11):
part of my everyday and I mean that not in a different way than yours you know
it's still we still you know talk about her and we still have our traditions you
know we at Christmastime go on to the cemetery and things I would say to you
and one of the things that has really reassured me about our kids though too
is it was this last Thanksgiving one of our traditions is cinnamon rolls
(32:32):
Thanksgiving morning we watched the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade and we
pretend that it's it's for Macy yeah and I was at the point where I thought you
know the kids are getting old enough now maybe maybe we need to start backing off
from some of that and so we made plans to go I think we're gonna go down to
Andy's Thanksgiving Day and our kids were like well but we're not doing that
(32:52):
till after we've had cinnamon rolls and watched the parade and so that was
reassuring to me like no those things those things are valuable to them too
still so yeah very cool you guys you mentioned hope mommy's this is it's very
much part a very much part of the story and the thing that was no pun intended
but sort of birthed out of out of this loss as always we want to let me just
(33:18):
want to remind people I mean what a what an amazing mystery this is tell us about
it Julie yeah tell us your journey with it where it is to where it is today and
and how I mean it's just it's impacting lives that continue to do so I just love
yeah love to hear that yeah so I have just been a part of our local leadership
(33:41):
team now for the last couple of years I transitioned away from being our chapter
president Lauren Morris is the current chapter president and she is doing
phenomenal work she's doing so good I am so proud of her I'm so proud of the
whole team as I was saying you know it feels like we're in Gen 2 we've had a
couple of gals that are significantly younger than us come on board that are I
(34:03):
mean they're go-getters they're excited about the ministry it is it feels like
you know the ball kind of is in their hands and they're ready to run with it
so yeah I'm so so proud of those ladies and what they are doing last year we had
the opportunity to host our first retreat here in northern Indiana well
actually it was in southern Michigan but hosted by our local chapter took off
(34:28):
actually was 2023 that we did that took off 2024 and now we're ramping up to do
it again in 2025 I think that is that is where I get really excited about things
that's where you see women come in on a Friday and be so unsure so scared that
are people really gonna understand or is this a safe place for me and they by the
(34:54):
time Sunday rolls around they don't want to leave they there they've found their
people and so yeah I'm really excited about that good stuff good stuff coming
up so practically speaking what services opportunities to hope mommies provide
for people that have experience of loss so our first generally our first contact
(35:16):
with somebody who's experienced pregnancy or infant losses through our
hope box which a couple years ago the whole box has got a completely new
redesign they look amazing so we give those to women preferably as close to
the time of their loss as possible has pampering items and resources ways for
them to then get connected with the community so that's that's what's
(35:38):
happening and then from there then they are invited into the community that
meets face-to-face or online so our local chapter hosts monthly meetups
opportunities for women just kind of come together and receive support
sometimes there's a planned activity this month we made candles because
October 15th is the wave of light which is a specific day that people light a
(36:00):
candle all around the globe sometimes it's just let's get together and chat so
that's happening and then a couple times a year we have our hope groups which are
our Bible study groups hope mommies has written a number of Bible studies
specifically for women who have experienced pregnancy and infant loss
and so that happens a couple times a year as well too and then like I said at
the retreat that is that's happening main hope mommies at the national level
(36:22):
does a an awesome retreat every year our local chapter at this point is doing on
every other nice website hope mommies dot org dot org yes oh and I would I
forgot something new that they're doing is the podcast they now have a hope
mommy's podcast so got with it yes yes so and that's it's fantastic and I'm
(36:44):
actually gonna be on it yeah and next month so we're just warming her up yes
the record show we got to her first many times because she's gonna be on the Hall
of Fame that's right yeah yeah that's right yeah I think and with the with the
with the hope boxes I mean those those are there at doctor's office I mean you
(37:07):
have those kind of yeah we have them doctors offices um
midwife offices birthing clinics hospitals churches a lot though come
just by word of mouth hey my friend you know just experienced a loss can you get
a box to her so yeah yeah but we do have them stocked all over the place really
really beautiful the region that you guys are covering yes ranges from where
(37:31):
to where so roughly so technically technically it's st. Joe and Elkhart
County yeah but with us being the only chapter in the Midwest bigger events
such as our retreat I mean the retreat the year before was we had people from
Kentucky Ohio Michigan Indiana Illinois I think Minnesota we had somebody that
(37:56):
came from Minnesota so you know we're the Midwest and Kentucky I'm super
hesitant yes because I think it's not quite yeah what is Missouri I know
Missouri help us out what do you consider yourself yeah oh well and I
would say to you for for guys if if you were experiencing this and want to reach
(38:20):
out to me specifically you can find me Andy at dudes and dads podcast calm
because I would love to connect with you or you could request a Stephen minister
yes if you're in our local area contact Julie actually yeah Clinton frame org
and we can get you hooked up with a Stephen minister the Stephen minister
(38:41):
thing y'all I had my first gosh my first I think exposure to that probably very
beginning my ministry career and I've just seen oh really amazing really
amazing things I mean the goal the goal ultimately is is this and this is true
for hope mommy's this is true for as you're talking about Stephen ministers
it is equipping everyday folks yes right to be the hands and feet of Jesus
(39:06):
and that is that is what it is all about these things are not relegated to the
high the highly trained professional whatever it is because that's not that's
not where that's not where the work lives the work the work lives every
single day with people that have have experiences who are experiencing loss
experiencing some significant significant challenges and and more times than not
(39:31):
what they need is explaining really just said they to find their people yeah to
find just a group of people that they just get it yeah and in as much as in as
much as we can and are willing to walk with people yeah I I will just say I'm
(39:53):
you know it's kind of slightly slightly related to this I I've run into a few a
few new friends here recently we've got some some close people who are who are
really rebalanced and pretty significant some significant losses and I am I am
(40:14):
just immensely grateful for you too because I you know whatever with all my
there's all the pastoral training and stuff like that that I have but there's
really is nothing nothing has been as helpful as being able to walk with real
people and kind of in maturing within myself the just how to be a good
listener I think to someone who is you know who is going through something
(40:37):
really really challenging just had a had a really meaningful conversation with a
with a with a new friend last night who who just lost a son and in one of the in
one of the worst ways you can imagine and you know if nothing if nothing else
(40:58):
it's like I don't know I just increasingly realized that the great the
great gift it is for someone who is who is just willing to have that
conversation and it like I just I hold those things so so near and so and so
dear and you know and for those who have lost a child who have lost a child it is
(41:24):
just I think for anyone that is caring for those people like it really is it
is just a sacred is a sacred honor to be able to walk with somebody and to do
that and so I'm grateful for you guys I'm grateful for anybody who is just
willing to step into that space oh as uncertain and as gut-wrenching quite
(41:49):
honestly just gut-wrenching you know I think back I think back over ten years
ago now like I mean it's just like a it's just like a bomb goes off I'm
like you know how there is this there's this kind of this just this Armageddon
(42:11):
of everything is true everything is turned upside upside down and in
particular I mean obviously for you guys who are like in the thick of
experiencing a loss like that and then for then for everybody that's there is
close to you and just to go my my gosh like what what in the world are we
(42:32):
supposed to even do with this what what are we because I remember feeling very
much I don't know I just very much as we were like in the planning of things that
had to happen following that it's like no matter what you couldn't
avoid having to have just some really it was a series of hard conversations back
(42:56):
to back to back to back which just feel like climbing uphill in snow I mean you
know yeah but I will say on the backs on the backside of it it's like it does
that does something mm-hmm to you I think in a good way it for it does form
you specifically it does it does and I will say from the alternative
(43:22):
perspective of somebody who's whose friends came rushing in to triage and
and to help carry you all never appeared like you didn't know what to do you guys
yeah I have strong I'd have strong non dudes and dads podcast language for how
we felt yeah I mean we know this but it's because well here's why it is it is
(43:45):
because it's because God yeah mm-hmm yeah enters enter enters into that gap
absolutely like there's you're gonna make me cry um hey speaking of grief yeah
yeah like that that is that is the un that is the unexplainable factor and
(44:06):
all that and that's why the people who've been through this I think they
have like the the spiritual insight that they gain and have yeah they have from
that that is a unique it's a unique gift I wouldn't wish it on nobody yet it's
strangely enough it's like it's like boy boy did I I believe what I believe to be
(44:29):
true about God it's in so many ways that I mean this because because of that
experience yes you know there was no amount of whatever formal training
seminary whatever like there's all those things have its place but in that in
that moment when the when the when the bomb goes off you really have to ask
what do I really believe about the nature of life and death and yeah and a
(44:51):
God who cares and God who sees us and all that right right um and there is
there's this gap in the space that only I think only he can enter into and boy
when he does it's like oh gosh then you all get to you get to experience that
you know that together yeah I think we just we wish that for I wish that for
everyone yeah absolutely absolutely I wish everyone had had people like we
(45:13):
have people that like I said came in and triaged and wrestled through things as
we were wrestling through things and held to faith when it was hard for us to
hold on to faith and lended us faith when we weren't sure we had it anymore
and and so many things but yes like you said that we have ten years of
perspective now where we can look back and we can say whoo yeah wish that
(45:35):
hadn't happened and yet we have seen so much beauty come from it that at this
point honestly I would I would do it again yeah and that's I mean that's a
really hard thing to say yeah but I would because I wouldn't trade what I
have on this side of things I wouldn't trade the relationship I have with my
(45:57):
friends I wouldn't trade the relationships I have with my family and
I would not trade the depth and the intimacy that I have with the Lord
hundred-percent yeah yeah because that it is yeah I mean it is it is good to
know a God who yeah who's there yeah
(46:25):
as some as simple as you can say it I mean that's that's but it's a it's a
profound it's a profound truth yeah and I don't know I'm thinking right now I
mean there's a couple people in my life who are I have another person who just
got a diet you know close close to me inclusive close just got a really scary
diagnosis and you know like I would just I was thinking this morning as I was
(46:53):
praying for him was like all all I could hope for is that they know that he is
there yeah like like yep yes you know I just mean I hope I hope that they feel
that I hope they experience that because that is in these moments it's like
that's really all that mm-hmm you know that's really all that counts I guess
it goes something beyond any might like whatever any of our wise words that we
(47:16):
have to share whatever but you know it that's what we need is is what well
it's what we need so we have yeah there's a guy who's there oh yeah absolutely amen well
you know glad glad we could go there together it's been a good time so good
(47:37):
have a good a good a good tear or two yeah but I'm but as always guys I'm just
I'm grateful I'm grateful that we could do it so thank you for joining yeah yeah
thanks Julie but yeah that's always before we let any of our guys know go
come here you have to do this live we gotta do it live here and now it's time
and now it's time for the dudes and dads pop quiz thank you Reagan she did it live I have a
(48:02):
some bite of her but it's better for her when she's can do it it is and she's
significantly older and now it's time for the dudes and dads pop no no that's
not that's more recent it's not too bad all right all right so if you've never
joined us before with this is a time we just pepper Julie with questions she
can't she can't imagine first question you ask her she's like I can't even
(48:30):
imagine so I'm gonna slide I'm gonna let Reagan take my spot okay so all right
right here we go girl here do it okay your first question if you had to
delete all but three apps from your smartphone which ones would you keep oh
there we go okay so my the Bible my photos does that that counts as an app
(48:53):
so we're talking like all apps okay so yeah yeah so specifically the Bible
would be the blue letter Bible app my photos and probably the lectio 365
prayer app oh so good gosh good answer so good yeah wait but we'll just let
Reagan do her three it was shooting do three and then I'm and then I've got a
(49:20):
couple that I'm gonna be a really hard one cuz I know you oh boy okay what's
left on your bucket list oh goodness she's right because there's a million
and a half things so how about the next big thing that's on my bucket list that
I'm currently working towards that count okay okay so your dad and I are hoping
to go to Scotland yes three years without you three years without you in
(49:44):
three years specifically without you yeah that's uh okay
Scott once the boys are gone yeah so me and I you're gonna be left oh yes oh
that's okay we can party without you there you go okay go for it okay the
last one what's the worst job you ever had oh oh okay so I've not had many
(50:08):
jobs in my life because your mom's lazy but probably when I was in high school I
worked for my grandpa he had a tool and die shop and I came in after school to
(50:28):
clean toilets oh that was probably the wrong job I'm just gonna go out on lemon
say a tool and die shop bathroom is a real nightmare cesspool Julie my
question is this is I just have one this this came to me Andy every once in a
while I have this like oh this is a new pop quiz question yeah oh boy so you're
(50:55):
getting it first here it is I'm ready because I think I'm just so intrigued
with the dynamics of this question and we'll test it out we'll see if you could
be a tour guide or any sort of tour yeah what would it be
okay oh this is really hard to narrow down because there's so many things that
(51:19):
I would love to be like yeah yeah yeah and on your right yes I think okay this
is super nerdy this is what I was hoping for the Oregon Trail yeah okay don't die
and get dysentery okay for the river yeah a tour guide along the Oregon yeah
(51:40):
nice like a two-week real slow like this is where you can like actually get off
the interstate and see the see the actual trail routes and like tell
people stories oh yeah I could get into that do they have to like do any work
because this is by the way I don't this is terrible to say when when we did our
(52:03):
out our out west drive would we have we would have been close to Oregon Oregon
anything yeah yeah yeah yeah I this is the one thing I totally like it skipped
my mind and at no point did I was did I ever like stop and be like oh is there a
place where we can take this do they do they like preserve that trail in any way
(52:23):
shape or form or is it just like no but there are areas where like the ruts are
still there yeah simply because like there were there were divots you know at
that time but then weather comes along and those divots just continue to get
eroded and eroded and eroded so actually there's a place in Guernsey Wyoming
(52:45):
which would have been the opposite corner of Wyoming where you guys were
that we have been to that the divots are like I mean huge feet thick just because
the ground like the rock is so soft gotcha every time it rains it just no see
there we have it that sounds like a tour guide exactly you know you didn't get
this is something on our trip that you didn't get to experience it because you
(53:06):
weren't with us because you know and Josiah took us everyone yeah we saw what
was a yellow submarine and I'm quoting this like this because Jonathan Worsler
it was did a great job he was he would him and Julie should go into business
together because he was always looking up the things gotcha but he was like oh
there's a submarine coming up I'm not kidding you it looked like a propane
(53:27):
tank that someone was appropriate because I'm like there's no way I'm like
this is not a not a summary not a summary it was a complete disappointment
complete disappointment but Jonathan tried oh my gosh that makes the whole
conversation you guys were having about the other summer in much clearer now
because I was really yeah I was I was can I was confused and so many levels I
(53:54):
just screwed the camera I'm sorry it's all right it's the end of the show oh
yeah I don't see me anymore uh Julie thanks you're a blast appreciate you
friend well thanks for having me oh my gosh hey as always you can head over to
dudes and dads calm and you can also call our voicemail at five seven four two
one three eighty seven zero two because no one ever does whatever does we gotta
(54:18):
get some incentives like a first voicemail we can get this we have to
incentivize this that's all there is to it hey dudes and dads podcast at gmail
calm is the email address where you can send us all of your meaningful feedback
or not meaningful whichever whatever you want whatever we like all the feedback
off it guys we're grateful for each and every one of you we look forward to
(54:40):
seeing you next time and until then we wish you grace and peace
you
you
you
you
you
you
On this episode, we interview Julie Lehman regarding Pregnancy and Infant Loss Month.
You're listening to the Dudes and Dads Podcast, a show dedicated to helping men be better
dudes and dads by building community through meaningful conversation and storytelling.
And now, here are your hosts, Joel DeMott and Andy Lehman.
(00:24):
Joel, Andrew, how are you today?
You know, Andy, if I were any better, there'd be two of me.
Wow, that's a dad joke.
I don't know. Here's the deal. I heard that the first time a few years back.
Who says that? Danny Yoder. Our friend Danny Yoder says that. I was trying to remember who.
(00:47):
My dad normally just says, "If I be any better, I be you."
Nice.
So.
My grandfather said, "I'm finer than frog's hair." That was fun.
Wow. That's the things I learned today.
Yeah, it was so much. Before we jumped on here, we were talking about couches.
Davenport, more specifically.
Davenport.
Wow. Hold on.
(01:09):
It was amazingly entertaining.
I messed up. There we go. I was done on the YouTube stream. I was showing two of me, which is interesting because I don't want to see me twice.
I could take that. Easy on the eyes, Andy.
Well.
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Dudes and Dads Podc-- Pod-- the podcast. Or clash. Podcash?
(01:32):
Clash.
Podclash. What? A podclash?
That could be interesting.
That could be a thing. I don't know what it is, but it sounds interesting. We should look into it at a later time.
Glad to have each and every one of you here.
It is always our great, great honor to welcome my friend Andy's spouse.
(01:54):
My friend too.
And your friend?
Yeah.
Some would say your best friend.
Sure. Yes.
You would say that.
Nice shirt.
Yes. Sorry.
Hi Julie. Thanks for coming.
Yes. Thanks for asking me to be here.
Yeah.
But before we get into that, we need to remind you about our sponsor for this episode.
Please can we?
(02:15):
Yes, let's do it.
Support comes from Everence Financial, dedicated to helping members navigate their life mission and finances through services that positively impact our community.
Learn more at Everence.com/michiana.
Securities offered through Concourse Financial Group, Securities Incorporated, FINRA.
Member, FINRA SIPC.
Thank you so much, Everence. We love you. We appreciate you.
(02:37):
And we do our very best to give these, these ad credits to you.
And Andy is really, he's really zeroed in.
The FINRA SIPC just rolls right off the tongue.
Except for this time I messed it up.
Andy, what's going on? What's, what's in your life? Anything interesting going on?
(02:58):
We have Julie in the studio. That's interesting.
Julie, what's going on in your life right now? Anything interesting going on?
What is the season of life right now for you guys?
We're in the season between tennis and basketball.
Do you have a little bit of a break? Is this a little break?
We're getting a little bit of a break. We had some false softball in there, but that's over now.
So we have about three weeks where we can come up for air.
(03:20):
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
Our air is, let me see. We have no sports right now.
I think I'm being, I think I'm accurate on this. Well, but we did just find out that indoor, indoor soccer starts, starts next weekend.
It was Matthew's last, last outdoor game today.
(03:43):
I was like, so Matthew, like, oh, we're pretty close to foot, the futsal season, indoor soccer season.
He's like, yeah, next game is Saturday. And I was like, you mean this coming?
Wow.
But hey, you know what? Here's the deal. It's in town. It's only a seven minute drive from our house.
I'll chalk that up as a win. You all know when the less travel, the better.
(04:05):
So a little bit, we've got a little bit of a time here to catch our breath, which is nice feeling that way too.
Marching band for us.
Going to state.
Going to state. Goshen Crimson, Marching Crimson. Boy, oh boy. That's exciting.
Lucas Oil Stadium. That's going to be a thing.
(04:26):
Here you come, Lucas Oil.
Yeah. Yeah. I've, I've never been down on the field there and I am a member, a proud member of the marching band parent pit crew.
Lift with your legs, my friends.
Boy, oh boy. We have, we have a couple of props. They're just big giant ramps actually this year.
They're just, they're built out and it takes, it takes an army to get some things moved.
(04:49):
And yeah, yeah. So we, by the end of the season, I'll be going to see Dr. Clark Kaufman over at Avon Chiropractic.
Not a sponsor, but he should be. We still, we still love and appreciate our chiropractors. I might, I might name them.
Well, Hey.
(05:11):
Yeah. Welcome. Welcome to the show, Julie. We've had you on a couple of times actually.
I was going to bring this up to you both. Annie Downs now has a hall of fun when someone has been on her show so many times they get their name on a plaque in the studio.
Okay. Okay. So I'm just going to plant that idea.
Here's what we should do. Cause here's what I think we could do.
(05:33):
We could have like this larger thing and then they get like the bronze.
Listen, even if it was my name and Sharpie on masking tape.
Consider it done. That's one of the perks of being married to one of the ghosts.
Well, yes. So though we are at the very, we're at the tail end of the month of October, October is pregnancy.
(05:59):
And I always want to make sure I say this correctly because I think the title is one of the longer titles, pregnancy and infant loss month where we remember, recognize and have a conversation.
Around a group of people that years ago if I'm really honest, I thought very little about because this tends to be a group who are not well, if I'm accurate, really not well represented kind of, you know, in terms of like loss communities.
(06:31):
I mean, and obviously for, you know, it's not a comparison game, but it's like, you know, we talk a lot about cancer loss. We talk a lot about, I mean, everything violent crime cancer.
There's a lot of communities where these big impactful, you know, these losses that occur.
And definitely the loss of a child also is a, is a, is a major serious thing.
(06:56):
It has been sort of a hallmark of this show that every year that we, we acknowledge it because obviously for you, Andy and Julie it's a central, central part of your life story as a, as a family.
And it has so deeply impacted our family as well being alongside of you guys.
And and again, I, as, as has been the case year after year partly, I think as I'm sure it's been with you guys, once you are aware of a thing, then you see it and experience it everywhere all over the place.
(07:33):
And I've just been ongoing ongoing. Great. I've been coming increasingly grateful of at least gaining in my understanding, gaining in my sensitivity and just, I don't know, getting my, my thoughts around around this a little bit more.
So, you know, Julie, with you on now, I, the one, the one thing that I always think about when we hit this month is maybe some new stories or new things that you've encountered recently around this.
(08:05):
Cause I feel like even though there is this kind of central theme, we're talking about pregnancy and infant loss, the stories are all unique. The stories are that you guys have, have interacted with.
What's kind of made an impression, you know, an impression on you guys, I think here maybe in the last year or two or something that's kind of front of mind for you that has maybe even reminded or affirmed why, why it is, you know, Julie, when years ago, starting with hope mommies and all of that, which we can definitely need to talk more about.
(08:42):
And I always want to remind people of, yeah, what kind of is something kind of a new thing, something you've encountered a new awareness or maybe something you've been reminded of in a powerful way here and maybe in the last year or so.
First back up to even, you know, I think what you were alluding to there at the beginning about this, this type of loss is so unique that when you talk about, you know, the loss community in general, loss is a loss is a loss.
(09:13):
And so like the hierarchy of grief is not a thing. However, it is so unique. And so really say what you will about social media, but the last 12 to 15 years have completely changed how pregnancy and infant loss is, is, well, it has given it a voice and it's brought people together in a way that I don't think it was just possible.
(09:37):
Prior to that. And so, you know, that along with just shifts and change in culture and people being willing to be vulnerable has really changed the landscape for pregnancy and infant loss.
And so what I've seen, especially in the last couple of years is what, what does it look like? You know, when we, when our loss first happened, it was 10 years ago. And so we were kind of what I felt like was in that first wave of people who were finding support through social media, through the internet, being able to connect with others.
(10:12):
And so now what does that look like? It almost feels like we're into gen two of, you know, it feels weird, but you know, it feels like Andy and I are kind of like the mothers and the fathers of, of, of, you know, coming alongside the, that next generation of people that are experiencing loss.
Because the people that are losing, I mean, just mathematically speaking, the families that are losing, in some cases, they're, they're losing a child are a decade younger than you guys are.
(10:42):
Yes. Yeah. We're a little bit out of touch. A little bit.
Yeah. And so, and for them, I mean, as you guys, by God's grace, you know, continue to grow, grow your, grow your family after the loss of Macy. For some people, it is, it is their first, it is their, it is their first, you know, their first child, their first love. That is, that is their experience.
(11:13):
What, what, um, as you guys have engaged with this community and, you know, we've had just a number of conversations.
What is, what, what are your biggest concerns with, with this, this group of folks? And maybe there are, there's some unique concerns within this loss community, or maybe there's some general ones, but what, you know, and this is kind of out to both of you, just what, when you encounter people that have had this experience, what, what worries you about, about that?
(11:55):
You can go ahead.
Okay. As far as like worries and concerns go, um, I don't want to get political, but there has been no change in how we track pregnancy and infant loss. There's been no change in how administrations see pregnancy and infant loss.
(12:22):
The amount of money that is being given in researching. Um, it's kind of just always been chalked up to, well, these things happen. And so a worry, a concern of mine is that, um, in the United States in particular, we're getting outpaced by a lot of other countries who are throwing money at the research and at the awareness and at the things that women should be aware of.
(12:51):
Even in their pregnancy of things to look for and things to be, um, yeah, concerned about. Um, so there is some concern in that on that side of things. Um, I think then, uh, the concern then also flips to as a person of faith. Uh, I don't see that the church has caught up with some of the other support that, uh, people are finding in a lot of other places.
(13:17):
Yeah, that is sorry. I would have anything that, you know, whatever.
I was going to say something similar, just as far as like with guys, I haven't seen a whole lot of guys. You know, that's one of the things that I experienced when, when we lost Macy is there wasn't a lot of support for just me.
There was, we went to a support group that was mainly geared for our kids and they had an adult support group there, but there wasn't really much in the way of just dudes. And so I've, I've seen a little bit in that going on.
(13:50):
I've worked one-on-one with a few people, but for me, like I don't see the wide support, like with hope mommies and other, other support groups around like that. Yeah. Yeah. I, I do wonder, um, cause I, yeah, I've, I've had this, uh, I've had a few other experiences, I think similar to, um,
(14:15):
just, just wondering why faith communities sometimes are behind the eight ball in this, in this area, particularly where, you know, in the traditions that we would be a part of, um, taking care of the, you know, the there's the widow, the orphan, the widow, the orphan and the poor.
Um, you know, and then it's, and then somehow there seems to be this other, this other category. I'll, I'll say this. I won't. Um, when I pastored here at this, at this church, I think, um, there, there was, I don't know what, what was what the season was, but like slowly finding out all of these women who had, um,
(15:04):
who had lost children this way and had never shared that with anybody. Um, and didn't, and didn't think for whatever, I'm sure a myriad of reasons for whatever reasons of the, but these, I would look at these individuals and say, man, they were in close community with other, other people, other women, other families who did not know this story. And they had held on to that.
(15:26):
held on to that or they didn't know the depth of which the grief what or the
pain it was like oh yeah we knew that thing happened to you but right moved on
right yeah yeah I mean I've heard as I'm sure I'm sure you guys have I mean I so
gosh this will go way back I will never I will never forget this and this is I
(15:49):
can say this now cuz there's no I think I feel like there is enough time that
has passed I can put it out there and it that I still have a strong reaction to
this when I think about it but enough time has passed I mean I remember when
when Macy passed and when I was making I because again I had I had two jobs at
(16:10):
the time at the time I had to make had to make arrangements to like get time
off her day off to come in and to officiate the funeral service right and
so obviously I have to go to my boss and I have to say like have to explain the
situation they were great about it but um you know they asked question I was
like you know this is my friends my friends are these are my friends and
that's what's going on and then just really won't be there for them and then
(16:31):
and then the question was how old how old is she and then whatever Oh how old
you were at the time and and then the sponsors like oh well she can have more
yeah yeah yeah and there's no replacement yeah yeah yeah and I just
yeah like like but but I think that's honestly I think that is the thought
(16:55):
mm-hmm even in like in faith communities oh yeah I have definitely heard church
folks oh yeah talk that way yeah yeah and and it doesn't like I did partly I
just want to be generous and maybe too generous but it's like I don't think you
really know what what you're saying yeah yeah but it's like it's like if you if
you have a really high view of life mm-hmm and and of a view that God has
(17:21):
intricately designed this human form in in like the miracle of life and of itself
only for that to not come to fruition man of all people of all people the
church should be standing at the front yeah of that line and saying this is a
(17:42):
this is a monumental loss and I you know I was thinking of as I do I say I have
weird thought thinking about the sun the Talmud there's this this theological
conversation around and this in particular is a conversation around
murder and but the loss of life and murder but there is this view that to
(18:03):
lose a single life is to lose an entire universe because of because of all of
the descendants and everybody that might follow that person right and so and
that's like again a unique cover it's a biblically formed perspective I think
that I think holds up for Christians as well and you know so if that is if that
is the case of I think I really think that we should maybe it's a challenge to
(18:27):
kind of bring to bring that perspective more to the forefront to really think
through yeah how we respond how we respond to people and that's so much of
this conversation I think is helpful I'm always looking to like try to help
people think a little more critically and fully about yeah absolutely and I
mean we Andy and I have from the jump ten years ago have always wanted to lead
with grace and to recognize that when somebody is hurting especially as deeply
(18:53):
as what we were people just really do they they really just want you to feel
better and and so we always have to remember that but yes people aren't
gonna say things people are going to not really maybe have that fully formed
thought process behind what they're saying but their intentions are good and
(19:14):
whenever we're given the opportunity to choose are their intentions good or
malicious we're gonna fall on their intentions were good
philosophers says never never assume maliciousness where stupidity will
suffice
(19:35):
that's a interesting way of giving yeah kind of speaking to the giving the
people the benefit of the doubt yeah um Julie I wonder for you vocationally I'm
really curious where now that you are pastor Julie Lehman yes where your
(19:55):
pastoral vocation and the loss of your daughter intersect oh man I is there I
don't even think it's an intersection I think it's just a complete collision yeah
yeah I I don't see that I mean God is God so he was gonna lead and do what he
was going to do but I don't see a path for myself coming into pastoral ministry
(20:21):
without without that I mean even so initially when I became a pastor I was
pastor of care which I think kind of makes sense when you're thinking about
the type of loss that we've experienced and then just some other you know life
experiences along the way that would be kind of a natural path oh yeah somebody
who's needed a lot of care is gonna you know give out of that but even now as
(20:43):
I've moved into connections and it's a lot more of you know meeting with new
people to our church and getting them involved it's still the same thing
because people all have something in their life and so I'm able to use you
know that tender spot in my story to be able to make a connection with somebody
because there's a tender place that they have to yeah you know it could be any
(21:07):
number of things but yeah and I think I think for me too it's it I've used that
while I'm not in professional that's not my job is pastoral care pastor or
whatever I think that my story with Macy our story with Macy has helped me be I
mean I'm a number two I mean any of Graham so I'm caring for people anyways
(21:29):
right but I think that that's just to kind of encourage that I've got to see
more the realistic side of what to do when people are hurting yeah yeah and and
I think that's part of the reason I'm trying to become the Stephen minister
now because I think that that yeah speaks well I mean I'm out of my hurt
and hurt and brokenness yeah I can help others so yeah that that's where I'd say
(21:54):
it affects me I I'm it's why I mean of the many reasons that I love you guys
and just I'm so grateful for you I I I'm intrigued by it's a skill that I think
in my pastoral ministry days and really and still and still is the case a skill
that I'm trying to develop is the how do you want to call it the emotional
(22:18):
courage to go to those places with people with a level of I don't know what
I'm gonna use the word confidence I guess to be able to confidently step
into those places obviously it's just it's a it's a work of humility and care
but I just know that I mean you know we don't live in a culture that's too
(22:42):
readily research to talk about death with people yeah very easily sure and
you know and man in every corner of our culture it feels like we're trying to
we're trying to beat death escape death walk around death but it will happen
(23:04):
yeah it will happen every single one of us the the the impact though the
hardship though is when it comes when it comes way before we you know way before
we would we would expect it to and obviously in the case of a child and
infant loss you know hope mommy's the community you're dealing with is you
(23:26):
know you know birth birth or pre pre birth to a wage - yeah so I mean all of
those losses just feel like gut punch yeah why God why yeah this you know it
like the game was over before and really began sort of sort of feeling how and
(23:54):
I'm sure you've had those conversations oh yeah so many of them yeah what have
those been like and what if what if you like what have you said what it would
have been the conversation around it yeah I mean that seems to be like the
conversation in my mind actually or and even in my experience as I've talked
with people and so you know what do you say I mean you don't say a lot you
(24:17):
listen you know you listen and you validate and in coming from a
perspective of somebody who's been there you know I can say I know what you're
feeling and what you're feeling is normal again as a person of faith so I
often talk a lot about what does it look like to be mad at God and to be mad with
(24:40):
God and so there's a huge there's a huge difference there when I'm being mad at
God I'm putting up a wall and I'm not giving him the opportunity to speak back
into that and and then when I'm mad with him then you know I'm I'm mad and I'm
giving it to him and but I'm recognizing he has broad shoulders and his love for
(25:01):
me is it's not it's not changing conditional upon your yeah how nice
you're gonna be yeah and then I'm also allowing him space yeah to do what only
he can do and and to allow him to speak into that and and you know to mold my
heart and so but really truly like what I am saying to people what those
conversations look like it's it's just a lot of listening and it's a lot of yeah
(25:26):
just encouraging people to talk being present mm-hmm you guys feel like
there's we've talked about this before the you know kind of the models of
stages of grief mm-hmm timelines cut to a certain degree you know a
(25:47):
systematizing of loss really nice idea yeah because we we have a little bit of
a fascination and attraction to that piece right like you're gonna you know
these are the these are the things what what you both have pointed out to me
time and time again and a good and a good reminder is is that most of the
(26:11):
grief stage models as they exist are with people who number one is chronic
often chronic illness rated no the end is coming yeah right which is a
different experience I think yeah your guys's experience was everything is
fine 37 going to 38 pregnancy I we've lost we've lost our child
(26:34):
literally overnight right and and I think you both quickly found out that
like those paradigms were just not yeah helpful they were not in the place where
you were yeah yeah I mean specifically like the Kübler Ross like the five
stages of grief like that her study is it's great but it's specifically
(26:55):
targeted towards people who received a terminal cancer diagnosis so you have to
be really careful that you don't take that and just broadly apply that to
everybody now there there are still really good things about that and I
think for the most part that each of those stages like all people that are in
grief will experience those at different times but again we have to be careful we
talk about stages the stage to me says we're gonna do this and then you're
(27:19):
gonna move on to this and then you go into that and the reality is you're
gonna bounce back and forth yeah probably for the rest of your life
interfering degrees into each of those things so what what does grief look like
for the two of you now Andy take this one yes he just had a fresh experience
so yeah so we were we were actually in our Stephen minister training on
(27:43):
Saturday we had a longer training which just feels like this has got to bring
bring some things to the front for you so so yeah and so we were actually even
talking so that there was two modules we were going over one was grief and one
was depression and and during the Stephen minister training you do some
like role-playing land like scenarios right yeah and and the scenario like we
(28:07):
just talked about this we talked about the stages like not stages but like
waves of grief where like especially at the beginning you have you don't it's
like you're standing at the ocean with your back to it you don't know it's
coming it's gonna come it may just wash up against your feet but it may knock
you over yeah and never know when that's and you never know what's gonna happen
we're just talking about that yeah and we were going through this scenario or
(28:30):
this thing and I was one-on-one with somebody else and it wasn't even about
like sure it's like a loss of a mother was the was the thing and I was the
person was supposed to be receiving care mm-hmm and in it like there was
something about doctors and being mad at the medical staff and immediately like I
I lost it like I was I hardcore cried yeah and like that for me like I was not
(28:50):
expecting that sure out of nowhere yeah and like for me yes it was just
interesting like because I hadn't thought about it and I hadn't experienced
that full like overtaking like great like grief emotion where you're just
coming on you for a long time and all of a sudden yesterday it was it was there
mm-hmm so much so that like I had to walk up out of the room for a little bit
(29:13):
yes I couldn't do it Wow I think that's it I think grief these days it looks
like for the most part it's just our life mm-hmm it often 99% of the time
does not I mean it's just been so integrated into us you know stillbirth
is just a part of our story and Macy is just a part of you know our life and and
(29:38):
so it's not a big deal but but then every once in a while and it's getting
to a point where it's farther and farther apart yeah which is which is I
mean it's a good thing it's an interesting emotion though but yeah well
at some point you feel also like okay my my not loving this person enough that
(29:58):
because I'm not experiencing these daily yeah times and so it is an interesting
emotion where you're not having it it's it's good because you're not crying
every day but it's also interesting because like oh it am I still
remembering my loved one I've heard some I mean I've heard children specifically
if they've lost a parent like at a young at a young age them
(30:21):
like having concerns because the memory seat because they were young and the
memory is seeming to fade for them as they get older and then they're being
sort of this get this guilt this worry this concern about about that
specifically it is that it maybe that's your appointment is that a concern that
(30:43):
you guys ever have or is it a concern that you have heckle even with your own
with your own your other your other kids I don't know if that's if that's come up
in in discussion I would say for me that was a concern for myself earlier earlier
on and I really like had to wrestle through that and I'm at a place of peace
with that right now and like I was saying like to me it's become it's just
(31:05):
she is such a normal everyday part of my life that that I don't worry about that
for myself I don't I don't want to speak for Andy but yes I do have that concern
for our kids which Reagan is here in the studio with us so I want to be careful
about what I put on my kids but that definitely is a concern of like you know
(31:25):
what will what will that look like when when they leave home what will that look
like when they are dating people what will that look like at their wedding
what will that look like when my own daughter is expecting a child like that's
stuff that is way out way way out in the future but it does I mean it does come
(31:48):
to my mind yeah and I think I think for me at one point it was starting to feel
like that a little bit where it's like oh I'm gonna because because it's not as
much my everyday is it is you Julie with your involvement and hope mommy's and
things like that but but I think now it's not as much yeah I mean it's just
(32:11):
part of my everyday and I mean that not in a different way than yours you know
it's still we still you know talk about her and we still have our traditions you
know we at Christmastime go on to the cemetery and things I would say to you
and one of the things that has really reassured me about our kids though too
is it was this last Thanksgiving one of our traditions is cinnamon rolls
(32:32):
Thanksgiving morning we watched the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade and we
pretend that it's it's for Macy yeah and I was at the point where I thought you
know the kids are getting old enough now maybe maybe we need to start backing off
from some of that and so we made plans to go I think we're gonna go down to
Andy's Thanksgiving Day and our kids were like well but we're not doing that
(32:52):
till after we've had cinnamon rolls and watched the parade and so that was
reassuring to me like no those things those things are valuable to them too
still so yeah very cool you guys you mentioned hope mommy's this is it's very
much part a very much part of the story and the thing that was no pun intended
but sort of birthed out of out of this loss as always we want to let me just
(33:18):
want to remind people I mean what a what an amazing mystery this is tell us about
it Julie yeah tell us your journey with it where it is to where it is today and
and how I mean it's just it's impacting lives that continue to do so I just love
yeah love to hear that yeah so I have just been a part of our local leadership
(33:41):
team now for the last couple of years I transitioned away from being our chapter
president Lauren Morris is the current chapter president and she is doing
phenomenal work she's doing so good I am so proud of her I'm so proud of the
whole team as I was saying you know it feels like we're in Gen 2 we've had a
couple of gals that are significantly younger than us come on board that are I
(34:03):
mean they're go-getters they're excited about the ministry it is it feels like
you know the ball kind of is in their hands and they're ready to run with it
so yeah I'm so so proud of those ladies and what they are doing last year we had
the opportunity to host our first retreat here in northern Indiana well
actually it was in southern Michigan but hosted by our local chapter took off
(34:28):
actually was 2023 that we did that took off 2024 and now we're ramping up to do
it again in 2025 I think that is that is where I get really excited about things
that's where you see women come in on a Friday and be so unsure so scared that
are people really gonna understand or is this a safe place for me and they by the
(34:54):
time Sunday rolls around they don't want to leave they there they've found their
people and so yeah I'm really excited about that good stuff good stuff coming
up so practically speaking what services opportunities to hope mommies provide
for people that have experience of loss so our first generally our first contact
(35:16):
with somebody who's experienced pregnancy or infant losses through our
hope box which a couple years ago the whole box has got a completely new
redesign they look amazing so we give those to women preferably as close to
the time of their loss as possible has pampering items and resources ways for
them to then get connected with the community so that's that's what's
(35:38):
happening and then from there then they are invited into the community that
meets face-to-face or online so our local chapter hosts monthly meetups
opportunities for women just kind of come together and receive support
sometimes there's a planned activity this month we made candles because
October 15th is the wave of light which is a specific day that people light a
(36:00):
candle all around the globe sometimes it's just let's get together and chat so
that's happening and then a couple times a year we have our hope groups which are
our Bible study groups hope mommies has written a number of Bible studies
specifically for women who have experienced pregnancy and infant loss
and so that happens a couple times a year as well too and then like I said at
the retreat that is that's happening main hope mommies at the national level
(36:22):
does a an awesome retreat every year our local chapter at this point is doing on
every other nice website hope mommies dot org dot org yes oh and I would I
forgot something new that they're doing is the podcast they now have a hope
mommy's podcast so got with it yes yes so and that's it's fantastic and I'm
(36:44):
actually gonna be on it yeah and next month so we're just warming her up yes
the record show we got to her first many times because she's gonna be on the Hall
of Fame that's right yeah yeah that's right yeah I think and with the with the
with the hope boxes I mean those those are there at doctor's office I mean you
(37:07):
have those kind of yeah we have them doctors offices um
midwife offices birthing clinics hospitals churches a lot though come
just by word of mouth hey my friend you know just experienced a loss can you get
a box to her so yeah yeah but we do have them stocked all over the place really
really beautiful the region that you guys are covering yes ranges from where
(37:31):
to where so roughly so technically technically it's st. Joe and Elkhart
County yeah but with us being the only chapter in the Midwest bigger events
such as our retreat I mean the retreat the year before was we had people from
Kentucky Ohio Michigan Indiana Illinois I think Minnesota we had somebody that
(37:56):
came from Minnesota so you know we're the Midwest and Kentucky I'm super
hesitant yes because I think it's not quite yeah what is Missouri I know
Missouri help us out what do you consider yourself yeah oh well and I
would say to you for for guys if if you were experiencing this and want to reach
(38:20):
out to me specifically you can find me Andy at dudes and dads podcast calm
because I would love to connect with you or you could request a Stephen minister
yes if you're in our local area contact Julie actually yeah Clinton frame org
and we can get you hooked up with a Stephen minister the Stephen minister
(38:41):
thing y'all I had my first gosh my first I think exposure to that probably very
beginning my ministry career and I've just seen oh really amazing really
amazing things I mean the goal the goal ultimately is is this and this is true
for hope mommy's this is true for as you're talking about Stephen ministers
it is equipping everyday folks yes right to be the hands and feet of Jesus
(39:06):
and that is that is what it is all about these things are not relegated to the
high the highly trained professional whatever it is because that's not that's
not where that's not where the work lives the work the work lives every
single day with people that have have experiences who are experiencing loss
experiencing some significant significant challenges and and more times than not
(39:31):
what they need is explaining really just said they to find their people yeah to
find just a group of people that they just get it yeah and in as much as in as
much as we can and are willing to walk with people yeah I I will just say I'm
(39:53):
you know it's kind of slightly slightly related to this I I've run into a few a
few new friends here recently we've got some some close people who are who are
really rebalanced and pretty significant some significant losses and I am I am
(40:14):
just immensely grateful for you too because I you know whatever with all my
there's all the pastoral training and stuff like that that I have but there's
really is nothing nothing has been as helpful as being able to walk with real
people and kind of in maturing within myself the just how to be a good
listener I think to someone who is you know who is going through something
(40:37):
really really challenging just had a had a really meaningful conversation with a
with a with a new friend last night who who just lost a son and in one of the in
one of the worst ways you can imagine and you know if nothing if nothing else
(40:58):
it's like I don't know I just increasingly realized that the great the
great gift it is for someone who is who is just willing to have that
conversation and it like I just I hold those things so so near and so and so
dear and you know and for those who have lost a child who have lost a child it is
(41:24):
just I think for anyone that is caring for those people like it really is it
is just a sacred is a sacred honor to be able to walk with somebody and to do
that and so I'm grateful for you guys I'm grateful for anybody who is just
willing to step into that space oh as uncertain and as gut-wrenching quite
(41:49):
honestly just gut-wrenching you know I think back I think back over ten years
ago now like I mean it's just like a it's just like a bomb goes off I'm
like you know how there is this there's this kind of this just this Armageddon
(42:11):
of everything is true everything is turned upside upside down and in
particular I mean obviously for you guys who are like in the thick of
experiencing a loss like that and then for then for everybody that's there is
close to you and just to go my my gosh like what what in the world are we
(42:32):
supposed to even do with this what what are we because I remember feeling very
much I don't know I just very much as we were like in the planning of things that
had to happen following that it's like no matter what you couldn't
avoid having to have just some really it was a series of hard conversations back
(42:56):
to back to back to back which just feel like climbing uphill in snow I mean you
know yeah but I will say on the backs on the backside of it it's like it does
that does something mm-hmm to you I think in a good way it for it does form
you specifically it does it does and I will say from the alternative
(43:22):
perspective of somebody who's whose friends came rushing in to triage and
and to help carry you all never appeared like you didn't know what to do you guys
yeah I have strong I'd have strong non dudes and dads podcast language for how
we felt yeah I mean we know this but it's because well here's why it is it is
(43:45):
because it's because God yeah mm-hmm yeah enters enter enters into that gap
absolutely like there's you're gonna make me cry um hey speaking of grief yeah
yeah like that that is that is the un that is the unexplainable factor and
(44:06):
all that and that's why the people who've been through this I think they
have like the the spiritual insight that they gain and have yeah they have from
that that is a unique it's a unique gift I wouldn't wish it on nobody yet it's
strangely enough it's like it's like boy boy did I I believe what I believe to be
(44:29):
true about God it's in so many ways that I mean this because because of that
experience yes you know there was no amount of whatever formal training
seminary whatever like there's all those things have its place but in that in
that moment when the when the when the bomb goes off you really have to ask
what do I really believe about the nature of life and death and yeah and a
(44:51):
God who cares and God who sees us and all that right right um and there is
there's this gap in the space that only I think only he can enter into and boy
when he does it's like oh gosh then you all get to you get to experience that
you know that together yeah I think we just we wish that for I wish that for
everyone yeah absolutely absolutely I wish everyone had had people like we
(45:13):
have people that like I said came in and triaged and wrestled through things as
we were wrestling through things and held to faith when it was hard for us to
hold on to faith and lended us faith when we weren't sure we had it anymore
and and so many things but yes like you said that we have ten years of
perspective now where we can look back and we can say whoo yeah wish that
(45:35):
hadn't happened and yet we have seen so much beauty come from it that at this
point honestly I would I would do it again yeah and that's I mean that's a
really hard thing to say yeah but I would because I wouldn't trade what I
have on this side of things I wouldn't trade the relationship I have with my
(45:57):
friends I wouldn't trade the relationships I have with my family and
I would not trade the depth and the intimacy that I have with the Lord
hundred-percent yeah yeah because that it is yeah I mean it is it is good to
know a God who yeah who's there yeah
(46:25):
as some as simple as you can say it I mean that's that's but it's a it's a
profound it's a profound truth yeah and I don't know I'm thinking right now I
mean there's a couple people in my life who are I have another person who just
got a diet you know close close to me inclusive close just got a really scary
diagnosis and you know like I would just I was thinking this morning as I was
(46:53):
praying for him was like all all I could hope for is that they know that he is
there yeah like like yep yes you know I just mean I hope I hope that they feel
that I hope they experience that because that is in these moments it's like
that's really all that mm-hmm you know that's really all that counts I guess
it goes something beyond any might like whatever any of our wise words that we
(47:16):
have to share whatever but you know it that's what we need is is what well
it's what we need so we have yeah there's a guy who's there oh yeah absolutely amen well
you know glad glad we could go there together it's been a good time so good
(47:37):
have a good a good a good tear or two yeah but I'm but as always guys I'm just
I'm grateful I'm grateful that we could do it so thank you for joining yeah yeah
thanks Julie but yeah that's always before we let any of our guys know go
come here you have to do this live we gotta do it live here and now it's time
and now it's time for the dudes and dads pop quiz thank you Reagan she did it live I have a
(48:02):
some bite of her but it's better for her when she's can do it it is and she's
significantly older and now it's time for the dudes and dads pop no no that's
not that's more recent it's not too bad all right all right so if you've never
joined us before with this is a time we just pepper Julie with questions she
can't she can't imagine first question you ask her she's like I can't even
(48:30):
imagine so I'm gonna slide I'm gonna let Reagan take my spot okay so all right
right here we go girl here do it okay your first question if you had to
delete all but three apps from your smartphone which ones would you keep oh
there we go okay so my the Bible my photos does that that counts as an app
(48:53):
so we're talking like all apps okay so yeah yeah so specifically the Bible
would be the blue letter Bible app my photos and probably the lectio 365
prayer app oh so good gosh good answer so good yeah wait but we'll just let
Reagan do her three it was shooting do three and then I'm and then I've got a
(49:20):
couple that I'm gonna be a really hard one cuz I know you oh boy okay what's
left on your bucket list oh goodness she's right because there's a million
and a half things so how about the next big thing that's on my bucket list that
I'm currently working towards that count okay okay so your dad and I are hoping
to go to Scotland yes three years without you three years without you in
(49:44):
three years specifically without you yeah that's uh okay
Scott once the boys are gone yeah so me and I you're gonna be left oh yes oh
that's okay we can party without you there you go okay go for it okay the
last one what's the worst job you ever had oh oh okay so I've not had many
(50:08):
jobs in my life because your mom's lazy but probably when I was in high school I
worked for my grandpa he had a tool and die shop and I came in after school to
(50:28):
clean toilets oh that was probably the wrong job I'm just gonna go out on lemon
say a tool and die shop bathroom is a real nightmare cesspool Julie my
question is this is I just have one this this came to me Andy every once in a
while I have this like oh this is a new pop quiz question yeah oh boy so you're
(50:55):
getting it first here it is I'm ready because I think I'm just so intrigued
with the dynamics of this question and we'll test it out we'll see if you could
be a tour guide or any sort of tour yeah what would it be
okay oh this is really hard to narrow down because there's so many things that
(51:19):
I would love to be like yeah yeah yeah and on your right yes I think okay this
is super nerdy this is what I was hoping for the Oregon Trail yeah okay don't die
and get dysentery okay for the river yeah a tour guide along the Oregon yeah
(51:40):
nice like a two-week real slow like this is where you can like actually get off
the interstate and see the see the actual trail routes and like tell
people stories oh yeah I could get into that do they have to like do any work
because this is by the way I don't this is terrible to say when when we did our
(52:03):
out our out west drive would we have we would have been close to Oregon Oregon
anything yeah yeah yeah yeah I this is the one thing I totally like it skipped
my mind and at no point did I was did I ever like stop and be like oh is there a
place where we can take this do they do they like preserve that trail in any way
(52:23):
shape or form or is it just like no but there are areas where like the ruts are
still there yeah simply because like there were there were divots you know at
that time but then weather comes along and those divots just continue to get
eroded and eroded and eroded so actually there's a place in Guernsey Wyoming
(52:45):
which would have been the opposite corner of Wyoming where you guys were
that we have been to that the divots are like I mean huge feet thick just because
the ground like the rock is so soft gotcha every time it rains it just no see
there we have it that sounds like a tour guide exactly you know you didn't get
this is something on our trip that you didn't get to experience it because you
(53:06):
weren't with us because you know and Josiah took us everyone yeah we saw what
was a yellow submarine and I'm quoting this like this because Jonathan Worsler
it was did a great job he was he would him and Julie should go into business
together because he was always looking up the things gotcha but he was like oh
there's a submarine coming up I'm not kidding you it looked like a propane
(53:27):
tank that someone was appropriate because I'm like there's no way I'm like
this is not a not a summary not a summary it was a complete disappointment
complete disappointment but Jonathan tried oh my gosh that makes the whole
conversation you guys were having about the other summer in much clearer now
because I was really yeah I was I was can I was confused and so many levels I
(53:54):
just screwed the camera I'm sorry it's all right it's the end of the show oh
yeah I don't see me anymore uh Julie thanks you're a blast appreciate you
friend well thanks for having me oh my gosh hey as always you can head over to
dudes and dads calm and you can also call our voicemail at five seven four two
one three eighty seven zero two because no one ever does whatever does we gotta
(54:18):
get some incentives like a first voicemail we can get this we have to
incentivize this that's all there is to it hey dudes and dads podcast at gmail
calm is the email address where you can send us all of your meaningful feedback
or not meaningful whichever whatever you want whatever we like all the feedback
off it guys we're grateful for each and every one of you we look forward to
(54:40):
seeing you next time and until then we wish you grace and peace
you
you
you
you
you
you
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