Why Recent College Grads Are Struggling in the Workplace

In this episode of the Dudes and Dads podcast, we dive into a recent study highlighting how our 20-somethings are struggling, specifically to keep their jobs. We discuss how we can be preparing our young people to enter the workforce with purpose and mission. Drawing on a report, we look at the top reasons why...

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
Hey everybody, welcome to the Dudes and Dads podcast. Glad to have each and every one of
you along for the ride. Joel, this music
is just, I love it. It makes me feel like I'm
at the house of blues. Doesn't
it though? It just puts you in that laid back, laid back
mood, which I started getting in that laid back mood, Andy, as I was driving to the studio
this evening and the sun is still, the sun is setting, but it was still out as I was

(00:27):
as I
was
coming in
here.
- It's a beautiful thing.
I mean, it's almost
like we're finally maybe
getting into springish, summerish.
- Springish, summerish, springy.
Hey everybody.
Hope you're all doing well.
Thanks for coming and checking us out.
For this episode, it's gonna be a good conversation
with Andy and I.
I kind of inspired by a recent conversation I had

(00:50):
with some young professionals, as it were.
I like talking to the young people, the 20 somethings that are getting out there in the
world of work and especially those that are doing so from a faith perspective, you know,
asking the question, what does it look like for me to be like a faithful follower of Jesus

(01:12):
and also to be a good employee?
Because apparently, Andy, the
studies have come
out.
Obviously our 20 somethings are struggling.
They're struggling to keep their jobs specifically, but
hey, we're going to
dive into all that.
We're going to have a
conversation.
We
want to talk about how we can be preparing our young people to enter the workforce with

(01:35):
purpose and mission and kind of some of the big categories that are maybe holding them
back.
So
I'm excited about that show or this episode, Joel.
It's going to be fun.
I've seen, seen some, some stuff at my place.
I'd like to check out chat a little bit.
And but first, though, support comes from Everance
dedicated to helping make Medicare an easy step through free

(01:57):
educational seminars and individual consult consultations.
Learn more at Everance dot com slash Medicare dash Monday.
Securities offered through Concourse Financial Group
Securities Incorporated member member FINRA SIPC.
And we also want to give a big thank you to our sponsor over at Avad Chiropractic.

(02:17):
The big question guys is are you experiencing pain?
Do you need a little bit of a reset or realignment as it were?
Well, hey, the people over at Avad Chiropractic specialize in advanced
techniques like chiropractic adjustments, deep tissue and relaxation massage.
Oh, yeah, I need I need some of that compression therapy and more
to target the root cause of your discomfort, not just the symptoms.

(02:39):
Don't settle for just getting by.
Experience real relief.
Book your appointment today at Avad Chiropractic dot com.
And click the schedule now button or call five seven four three one two zero four zero
two of our chiropractic wellness because your body deserves the best.
Your body deserves the best, Andy.
Thank you, Joel.

(03:01):
Joel, we I'm excited about this.
So we have a new voicemail number.
So we.
Yes.
We
have not had a whole lot of voicemails.
In fact, I got a couple from our old voicemail number
that I want to play real quick and then we'll go into the new voicemail number.
Got you this is we were like we're sort of saying goodbye to the old this is the way
of saying goodbye to the old
voicemail number this voicemail number or this voicemail came

(03:23):
in a while ago okay from my daughter I'll just say that it's from my daughter Reagan
and and she was a little disgruntled disgruntled let's just listen okay
hi there I'd like to
file for a complaint um I haven't been on the show very much so yeah get me on the show
Oh, okay. So that was number one.

(03:44):
And then this is number two.
I do not contend to having my voice on the show, but
I would like to just finally give my
last
voice.
I'm not end up on the
show and
not very happy.
Probably going to sue the host.
And yeah.
So anyways, so Reagan Reagan was not she was actually sitting in the studio

(04:04):
when she left.
Yeah, it took a lot of
guts literally to call our voicemail while she was
sitting here with us to complain about us about us.
So so that's
that's besides the point.
So let's play it.
Have a ring and we've made it.
We made you on the show. Yeah.
Secondly, though, the new voicemail number for one is 574-501.

(04:28):
No, sorry.
Yes, I'm getting too many numbers here.
We'll get this eventually.
Five zero five seven four five zero one four four six seven.
And so again, that's 574-501-4467.
And I like it because it's not only a voicemail number.
It's the same same voicemail that you can call and leave us a voicemail during the week.

(04:49):
Yes,
won't wake us up, won't do anything like that.
But the nice thing about it is during our shows, you can actually call in.
So if anyone wants to call in again, that number is 574-501-4467.
And you can call in and talk to us while we're on the show
live.
Yeah, and I told Andy just as long as I'm getting weirdos calling in

(05:13):
They would have a screen we're gonna need
a screener screen you people
But all right, so that's our new voicemail number feel free to call us if you if you want during the show
We would love to talk to you about this or anything else
You can also join our zoom backstage at dudes and dads comm slash backstage mm-hmm
So there you
go the backstage agent. I think and thanks so much Andy for that we we love the voicemails

(05:34):
We keep on asking and we feel we're in turn the corner eventually some the voicemail thing the call-in
Thing is gonna hit eventually. We just know that we're gonna get it in front of the right person
Someone's be like yes, I will call in I will leave a message. I'll leave that feedback
Somebody's
not disgruntled like
that's yeah.
Yeah someone who's not a teenage
Gruntal this teenage girl

(05:57):
All
right, okay, so tonight. We're talking a little bit about college graduate
Graduates and like limb losing their job and not being able to keep jobs and all that yeah all of that fun stuff
So Joel you have this great site, so tell me a little bit about this
You've done a presentation recently because you
have
this nice like slide deck that you said
hey, yeah
I got some info you got

(06:17):
some info so we're gonna look tonight
We're taking a look at the slide deck and some stuff you gave us recently
Here's the deal this
is this is a report that
Quite honestly, I think my wife sent this to me at first
Was on that was on the news was on a program
And I think a radio podcast program and was talking about a study that had just recently been released on how

(06:43):
Gen Z errs were just like
Losing their jobs at at pretty record rates
Due to being let go like intentionally like let go or fired like they didn't just leave yeah
Yeah,
yeah, this
was this was like
There were concerns about their job performance to an extensive level and

(07:03):
Their their bosses were saying
We just don't think
Their bosses were saying it's not it's not us. It's you
and and
Yeah, we just think that this is not a good fit for you and so
Then they they released and then they surveyed all of these all of these company leaders the HR people all of that

(07:25):
that, and really try to get to the bottom of... this is off of intelligent.com. In the
show notes, I'll give you the reference for the shows and where this actually... the study
that actually came from. This was released at the beginning of 2025, done off of some
things that were also collected this past fall. So pretty recent. The thing that really
kind of, I think, troubled me and broke my heart a little bit, Andy, is people who will

(07:50):
soon have, before we know it... now, we're talking about kids going to college soon,
But then shortly after the college experience, they entered the workforce.
So we hope
that's
on our radar.
And I'm sure plenty of our listeners have young people that are right in that season
as well.
And it's like, "Man, we want to prepare our kids to be like great employees and ideally

(08:13):
to keep
jobs."
You know?

Adam (08:15):
Right.
So,
I mean, this is an interesting phenomenon because this is not something that's necessarily
happened in the past.
So let's talk a little bit about recent reasons that college graduate hires have
not been
successful.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because the
CEOs, the owners of these companies that were letting these people go, the bigger
what kind of troubled me was the statement was being made.

(08:37):
I am just not going to hire 20 somethings anymore.
But they're kind of just like a whole generational black ball.
And how do you how do you get that expertise?
Because a lot of
times people
are looking to hire people who are already.
Yes, I already have some experience, but how
do you get that experience?
Right, because now they're saying they're not.
They're just they're

(08:57):
becoming
less and less likely to give
young people a chance in in
the job market because of these.
So these are the categories.
These are the main the I think we've got this up.
So for those of you listening, listen, 10 of the top 10 categories, why these young
These recent college grad hires were not successful.
So we're talking roughly someone in there about 22, 23 years of age.

(09:20):
Right. And the top one, the
one that is gaining me at 50% of these reasons
is lack of motivation or initiative.
Yeah. Wow.
Wow. Right.
And this made me think, Andy, like I was I was just like, OK.
I know that sometimes older people see younger people.

(09:41):
I'll just talk about my kids. Sure. Specifically.
I as a parent, I sometimes go, man, I just wish they would show more initiative toward
things right.
Like anything from mowing the lawn.
That's probably a bad example, because I've got I've got two kids right now that are they
actually are like they argue over who gets to mow the lawn there.

(10:03):
But those sort of things, right.
Things around the house doing that sort of stuff of seeing a thing that needs to be done
and doing it right.
Like we have this sense of like, okay, that's a necessary skill.
But then I think it's easy for us to assume like, oh, they'll kind of pick it up, right?
They'll eventually get the idea that they need to sort of step up and take a step forward
and do things on their own and not have to be told what to do all the time.

(10:27):
Sure.
Not this,
you need
to do this, you need to do this, you need to do this.
And then my concern is when I saw this study, Andy, I was like, apparently 50% in this study,
percent, half of the people that were losing their jobs right out of college, they were
losing it because they were not able to show a sense of motivation or initiative in their

(10:49):
work.
So we actually have a comment here. Roy is saying, I teach college classes part
time and I'm so disappointed to see the students take courses in a degree that is it's clear
that they have no interest in. Interesting. Yeah, that's it. That's well, that's a whole
thing of itself, too, because if
you know,
if you have no interest in in what you're
taking courses in, then why are you even taking those courses?

(11:11):
Yeah, it's like it's man, especially the way it's expensive as colleges.
It's like, well, you better really like as
we're all going to
take classes that we're
I specifically
remember this,
guys, Andy.
So Andy obviously went to college a little bit later in life, but but I would say it
was an excellent, excellent.
Were you a 4.0 student?

(11:32):
Close.
The only reason I wasn't because grades I brought it back in from the previous
car. Yeah, yeah, I got
scammed out of that
I remember that anyway,
no offense, Indiana Wesleyan University. Um, so, you
know, Indiana was my one
It wasn't Indiana Wesleyan. It was my other one. I'm kidding. Oh, yeah, you're pretty
Right your
previous.
Yes your previous
Establishment. Yeah puts butch KT anyway

(11:54):
But like
Was I going with this before I made a joke about your grades the whole the whole the whole idea here is that
We all have like in the college setting, we all have some classes, right?
We're not right.
We're not thrilled with I just remember I specifically remember because it's been more
recent like everyone's while you'd have a course for your like, oh my gosh, because

(12:17):
you were you were in the profession you were in your field for quite a while as a professional
and like
you're taking classes.
Yeah, you're taking
classes about things that you are already pretty well versed in.
So it's like that's a struggle.
But in general, yeah, it's like, why sort of be motivated toward these things?
If it's, yeah, like, why?
Why?

(12:37):
Yeah.
I
don't know.
That's a good question.
Unless you're getting pressured to be in a particular degree program or going to college
for reasons that you shouldn't be.
But so
yeah, lack
of motivation or initiative.
And I, you know, I think it's just something to think about.
I don't know if I have like great one size fits all solution for like how to instill

(12:59):
those things in young people other than if you're a parent right now, just know that
the job market people, employers are looking for, and this is not new, but I think particularly
now, they're looking for motivated young people.
They're looking for people who will take initiative, that will look around and say, "Hey, where

(13:21):
is there a problem and how can I solve it?
And I want to be that person.
I want to step forward and take that and take that leap.
And even, you know, even from a standpoint of young leadership, you know, like,
hey, there's a need here and I'm going to I'm going to move forward.
I'm going to take a step intentionally. So.
It's it's something it's something to consider.

(13:45):
And, yeah, just to be aware of number two,
Wait,
hold
on. So Roy wrote back.
Oh, Roy. I like this, Roy.
Yes.
Interaction.
So many cybersecurity students who don't go
who don't go off and try to do research things on their own.
No passion for the topic.
So many students take computers because it's cool

(14:05):
or the job job folks can make money in.
This leads to the lack of motivation.
Yeah. Or it's because of lack.
Yeah. Or it's because of a lack of motivation.
Yeah. So we so that's an interesting perspective in that
the lack of motivation is coming from just
it than not being aligned with what their
actual passion is that they're they're pursuing
an area of. And then obviously that would be
even worse if they're entering the job market

(14:27):
in an industry that they're actually not
really qualified.
Yeah. And or interested.
Right. Yeah. Interesting.
Number two, lack of professionalism.
Now, here's one.
Here's one.
I.
So I'm
going to see if I was looking at these other
categories here of this fits in. I'm guessing this fits in. Okay. So part of professionalism,

(14:51):
Andy, here's the thing. I've heard this. I hear this from business leaders all the time.
I also hear this from, uh, I went, had a really great opportunity actually to talk with, um,
a group of young folks who are, they're out of high school and they're doing a gap year
apprenticeship program. Oh sure. Yeah. Over the course of a year. Yeah. It makes sense.
And I got to meet with them and I should, this is where I first like presented some

(15:13):
this information to them, because I just wanted to give them a context of like, this is what
your generation is up against right now and how you have an opportunity to sort of stand
out in a job market where people are quite honestly, it seems like people are expecting
you sort of to fail.
Like people are expecting you, because they're seeing this enough where it's like, "Every
22-year-old that walks in here is not a great employee."

(15:34):
And so then it's kind of becoming the norm.
Part of the kind of banner of lack of professionalism is being on time, like being on time for things.
I'll tell you what will get you on time for things.
So if you ever work in the production like RV market, oh yeah, like you have to be clocked
in and ready to go

(15:55):
at six
o'clock or whatever time you start at and you get like, I think
literally like three chances.
If you're late
at all, then you're gone.
It's not even
a like, I'm sorry that your tire blew on the way over
or you got
stopped
by a train, which happens
a lot in Goshen,
it you you lose your job.
Yeah.
And so that that'll get you on time pretty quickly.
Yeah. So and I think.

(16:19):
Yeah, I think and I think most places are becoming more and more
more and more rigid about that, because there just seems to be kind of this,
you know, kind of laissez faire approach to it.
But the lack of professionalism, so there is, yes,
there's the timeliness being being punctual.
I was talking with one, when I was doing this presentation, I was talking with one young
adult.
I think he was in his mid-20s, 25, 24, 25.

(16:43):
And he said he was talking about a job that he had last summer where he apparently, he
was like, "My boss, I had a great relationship with my boss.
My boss took me aside and was just like, 'Man, you're killing it.
You're doing such a fantastic job.'"
And he goes, "I had this moment where I was like, 'Dude, all I do is just show up on time.

(17:04):
All I do is show up on time and just do my job.
He goes, I wasn't considering myself to be any above and beyond sort of employer.
I
did what was asked of me.
I was there on time.
I clocked in, I clocked out, because it was a summer job at the time.
And even that, just that approach alone of being there on time, doing exactly what I

(17:25):
was asked, and just not being a problem that way, his boss saw that as
stellar,
just extraordinary.
extraordinary, absolutely stellar.
And so I just think, I said to them, I said, "Guys, the bar is not set very high right
now.
So if you just have a commitment of doing the thing that you're asked to the fullness

(17:53):
of your ability, that right now will be viewed as like almost above and beyond now, right?
and kind of to look at it that way.
Also, just when
we, yeah, go ahead.
- I was just gonna say, and Roy has mentioned again,
but business leaders partnering with colleges

(18:14):
would be great to kind of teach some of these basic skills
'cause they're just not, like these basic
things
that you need to show up for business
aren't showing in college, they're not being taught.
- I noticed the other day I had a young person
introduce themselves to me.
when I say young person, this is their maybe 20 years old,

(18:35):
looked me in the eye and shook my hand and introduced themselves. And I,
I, I think you and I would say that is, that'd be a standard,
business interaction practice for us. But when they did it, it really
stood out,
it stood
out to me. And I was like, I was like, huh, wow.
So like those, some of those, so those, some of those basic professional,

(18:56):
those professional etiquette sort of things showing up on time.
The one I had just had a meeting we're going to I won't let the cat out of the bag.
We had a meeting with a future show that we're going to do.
So I was talking to somebody who is in an academic setting
and they were talking about in our in our virtual realities now.

(19:16):
Like even like a Zoom meeting etiquette, because a lot of places are doing that,
especially hybrid employees or whatever like.
where where people are just like have don't have are lacking certain decorum, certain practices
and zoom meetings like turning their camera off for extended periods of time. And then when called

(19:37):
upon, it's clear that they are like not there or they are doing something else or, you know,
kind of tuned out that sort of way.
So that kind of goes on to the next couple down. I mean,
there's organizational
skills and poor communication skills. And that comes in like almost 40 percent.
It looks like 37% or so like is poor communication skills.

(19:57):
And I've seen that too.
And to go to your.
But what's weird about your having the zoom camera off?
I've seen that before, and it's not even just a younger person.
It
was an
older person.
So
I don't I don't
know if that like to me, if I'm on now.
Now again, this is if I'm in a setting where I join the meeting, usually I'll have my camera

(20:18):
off.
But if there are others that have it on, I'll turn it on.
Yeah.
especially in a business setting.
And a lot of times when we're going business to business,
so like if I'm working with another business
company,
sure, I'm going to.
I'm not going to necessarily most of the time they don't have their cameras on.
Yeah.
But if I come into the meeting and they have them on,
I'm going to turn it
on. Yeah. Yeah.

(20:39):
What do you think? Yeah, maybe that's a I'm just I'm always curious. I.
I do a fair amount.
I do a fair amount of those meetings, both with.
So as I lead a not-for-profit, my board of directors, for instance,
they're spread out over a decent geographic area.
So we do our monthly meetings that way.

(21:00):
And I, but I, but I just, for me, it's like, man,
it's a relation, it's a relational connectivity opportunity. Right.
And I just don't know if,
if maybe that's just not seen that same way by younger generation,
or if they're just like I didn't,
I didn't want to comb my
hair this
morning. So I'm not, you know,
I don't know the full implications, but again, some of those things, like you said, communication

(21:24):
skills, organizational skills, some of those core things.
And Andy, I just think about it, where did you and I learn?
And I wouldn't say I'm not a well-oiled machine when it comes to organization or whatever,
but where did you and I learn our organizational skill?
I was just thinking about this like, because I didn't have an organizational skills class

(21:49):
that I ever took.
Okay.
I we like, how did we do that?
Like, where did we learn how to?
That's a good,
it's a good question.
I'm not, I'm not really sure.
Cause I just like sort of like just one day I was like, okay, this is how I'm organizing
things.
Well, I think part of it comes down to, we see it like by example.

(22:09):
So we grew up in homes that have a pretty organized.
And then I had a job when I was 16, 17.
And I think some of these kids today
don't necessarily have those
skills.
And so they're going to college right offhand
or like, I think a lot of it is just the changing

(22:29):
of the culture too, where it is.
I mean, now, because of the fact that we have this,
we're having to deal with this hybrid approach to business
where we have some businesses are again,
full in person. Some are fully remote and some are like a hybrid where you have two
days at work and two days not. And that was easy for me to transition into. I'm working

(22:53):
hybrid most days or two days out of the week. And I think for me, it was easy to transition
into that. But for those who have not necessarily had that and they've grown up now, they've
I'm saying growing up with with Zoom and it's a different than that.
It is a different way of doing things, you know, where you're in person.

(23:14):
There is a little bit different of a reading and the different of how it goes.
So I think probably some of that's those skills and organization skills
have come from just being, I guess, experience.
I mean, because, you know, we had those jobs.
And for me, I had a job that wasn't necessarily like working at McDonald's
or something where I was a traditional.

(23:35):
I was working in a warehouse.
Yeah.
And so for me, I had a chance to see how businesses run.
And again, not just in a McDonald's job.
Like I had a pretty good paying job when I was in high
school.
Yeah. My first job was when I was in fifth grade.
And I had Andy back when you had paper routes. Oh.
Paper routes. And I was just thinking about this.

(23:55):
That was the first time that required actually like just thinking about this.
I'm saying as a as an 11 year old kid.
In fifth grade.
Having a paper route where I had to
had a route I had to keep organized.
And then I had to collect payment.
Oh, so you were actually financially responsible.

(24:17):
That's right.
I was responsible to get a payment
for
and you had to keep track of like who was the weekend
deliveries and the daily deliveries, all that sort of stuff.
And I just again, I just wonder like.
where are those opportunities, like where are those opportunities or are those those
kind of opportunities just to even begin in the early like the early process of learning
organizational skills.
So again, parents, guardians, educators, you know, people that are interacting with students,

(24:45):
the organizational piece, understanding organization, understanding how to manage your workflows
and things like that.
However, over complicated or simple it might be, that's a it's a real it's a real skill
And apparently a lacking one and it's it's causing problems for our young people when
they're trying to get out into the workplace and and thrive.

(25:05):
OK, next category reasons for recent college graduate hires not being successful.
Challenges with feedback.
So in other words, they're saying.
That their employee doesn't take feedback, so in other words, you're not doing a great
job at this or I would like you to do something else.
Right.
And they're receiving that.

(25:26):
This has been my experience.
They are receiving feedback, even when it is really well presented to them in a helpful
and hopefully constructive sort of way.
They're receiving that as like a deep and personal offense against them.
Do you think that some of that is because of the generation that has come about with

(25:48):
the everybody gets a trophy, like no matter what you do, like a participation award?
I would say yes,
I think that's part of it.
I've also been thinking about, and I would love to hear some feedback on this, I'm sure
a lot of my OG youth workers that are really deep into adolescent psychology would probably
have some really good input on this.

(26:09):
Here's what I am wondering about.
I think, Andy, that so much of the lives of other people that our young people see are
so well curated.
I think there's a sense out there that like everybody just shows up with their best all
the time.
Like, and so that they're like, so the idea is, is that, um, there, the, there's really

(26:34):
not space or places out there or, or even a recognition of reality of like, yeah, you're
not good at everything.
And number two, like there will be things, I mean, Andy, there's things that you and
I suck at even now
is right.
Even,
even like even now in our professional world, I can name, I can name
categories right now where I go not good at this thing.

(26:56):
And at this point in my life, probably never going to be great at it.
I might be able to increase, like I might be able to increase, I might be able to
get my C minus up to a C, maybe B minus area.
But like, I know there are things I'm never going to be good at, which, which is
why, by the way, I'm, I don't do the fake it till you make it sort of thing, which
young people feel like it's some pressure to do.
when I get why. Like, I'm just I just try to be very, very real about here are here

(27:20):
are my strengths. I want to swim in the area of my strengths as much as possible. And I
want to. But then I was also like surround myself with some with resources and other
people to help me in the area of where I'm not going to be as great. That's a life that's
a life skill. And that's how you that's how, by the way, and by the way, I've gotten to
those conclusions. I've done those things from through the the means of feedback from

(27:45):
other people who I think, by and large, want the best for me.
And they're looking to, you know, like as I've developed as a professional and all that,
they've wanted to see, you know, better things for me.
I got some, it's been a couple months ago.
So like I said, as I run a non-for-profit, I, and I'm not outing them or anything, but

(28:09):
my president and vice president of my board came to me, where it was a meeting we had
scheduled came to me and said, had a pretty, I think a pretty, it was kind, but it was
pretty direct criticism about me delegating responsibilities to my, to my board members
because I was in a mode of, it's just easier if I just do it myself.

(28:34):
But that was, it was creating, it was creating a little bit of a bottleneck in our, in our
operation.
Right.
So they came to me with that.
And I will say I have a much greater awareness now, and I'm asking better questions.
I received that.
So when they came to me and said, "Hey, Joel, we see this happening," I had really two options,
either to crumble like a wet paper sack and say, "Oh, gosh, I can't work here anymore.

(29:02):
Clearly, I'm not the right person.
You don't like me," or whatever.
You get the idea.
to say, "Hey, this is an opportunity.
These people who I really trust, these people who know a decent amount about the
work that
I do are offering me an opportunity to recognize something that I'm not, probably a little

(29:23):
bit of a blind spot with me, and recognizing something I'm not doing particularly well."
It was helpful.
I received that in a really, really helpful way.
But receiving criticism and handling it well and making good things out of it is a key

(29:44):
to success.
Yeah.
Uh, so we also have some comments on, on your Facebook page too.
And I
was able
to pull them in.
Gotcha.
So I didn't get all of them, but Julian said, working with a couple of girls in their young
twenties and having a daughter in her young twenties, I can verify that second, uh, without
a doubt, they have no clue how to be professional.
no clue what it means to be an adult and have an attitude with anyone, anyone who questions

(30:08):
them on anything. It's awful. Interesting.
Joe, we got to talk more about this, I, I, I, I, I.
Joe also sounds like maybe she had a recent run in with us, it sounds fresh, it sounds
fresh. There is
definitely some capital
letters.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She was out
of doubt and
anyone's caps.

(30:29):
We knew it was serious business. Yeah.
Yeah, that's it. That's interesting. I, uh, I,
is, and so going back to like Andy, if you're thinking right now, um,
let we'll Michael, we're going to use you as an example. Cause we,
you're about ready to head off into this next chapter of life.
If you were to have a conversation with Micah right now about, about, um,

(30:52):
Hey, you're like, even in college, Hey, you're going to do some work projects.
You're going to be whatever. And you're going inevitably,
cause it's part of the literally part of the
learning process.
You're going to get feedback on on stuff and not all of that feedback is going to be way to go
Micah. Nice job. You nailed it. 100%.
What what conversations would you want to have with him right now to prepare him for that,

(31:15):
because this is this is the I got to be honest with you with I'm thinking with my oldest son,
freshman in high school. I this is something I need to do better at this. This is like
and having these preparatory conversations for him, because eventually I think especially for
kids that have a particular high skill in areas and are drawn to things.
They they do a lot of really great things.

(31:37):
And then that kind of goes on for a while.
And then eventually, when they stepped up to a next level
or they have a new opportunity, it's like it's like, oh, they get their first
kind of like a harsh what they see is harsh feedback. Right.
What do you like?
What's the conversation you want to have with him about that?
So I think I think for one, I'm going to start and say.

(31:58):
He's had a couple of different jobs already.
Yeah. Three ish jobs already in his high school career.
Yeah. And so I think he's been able to take some of that that feedback.
And it's been in different areas.
I mean, he's worked in
automotives and construction and also
now,
you know, working, doing some quality control.
And so I know that he's definitely had some some feedback

(32:20):
on stuff that he's done.
Yeah.
And I think he's taken it fairly well.
So I
think I think it starts with us as parents.
When we give feedback, you know, we can say like, hey, you know,
I appreciate you cleaning your room. Yeah.
But you did a terrible job.
I wouldn't say that specifically. Yeah.
Yeah.
But I'm noticing you cleaned your room.

(32:41):
However, that's not my clean.
That's not that's not to the standard.
Right. No,
I think and I think that that's tough as a parent
because it also comes across different than it does if you are
a coworker, you know, a worker or an employer, because obviously there's some sense of you're

(33:02):
hiring me and I will get fired. And so I will have to look for a new job. But I also think
that like I've seen turnover so crazy of people in that age range from I mean, again, I'm
not in HR, but I do see when a lot of people come and go from our company. And so I see
I've seen a lot of turnover with the college age, the age that we're talking about right

(33:24):
And
so I think
that that's also something that maybe systemic, that it's more of a mentality
of I can just get a different job.
Yeah, yeah,
I'm I can get a different job.
I can get a different job.
Yeah.
And
so we.
Yeah, the long term invest.
That's I mean, that's our thing, like the long term investment in companies.
You know, when I was growing up, there was a there was a company right in our town, was

(33:47):
manufacturing organization.
And they would they would have they had a sign up right by the road.
It would they're all they would recognize their long like long-standing employee anniversaries and all the time you'd be like congratulations
Bob Smith for 25
years
And 30 years are do you know 15 years of this or whatever and it's and you'd
I'm sure there are still those people, but you don't just don't see that now right right

(34:10):
the long the longevity
Well, and honestly, I mean I'm seeing turnover and granted some of that turnover is people like leaving because they're retiring
or whatever
Or have
been with a company for quite a while and I get that like I think in general people need
Change every so often, but I think that
what i'm seeing more and more of is this

(34:32):
Just churn of yeah, i'm bored i'm gonna
move
on i'm bored i'm gonna move on and what and and there's really a benefit
There is really a benefit for sticking with something
for for a period of time
Because if you're always like the new person,
if you're just doing that like again and again and again,
that gets old too.

(34:53):
And you lose out on opportunities to like,
hey, what might you encounter in a workplace
at the two year mark, at the three year mark,
where you're starting to gain some knowledge
and understanding, you kind of get a better sense
of the organization and how it runs and things like that.
- No, don't get me wrong.
Some jobs in organizations are just not good
fits.
- Yeah, yeah, sure.

(35:13):
- They aren't.
But I think overall we're seeing that.
And yeah, I don't know.
It's just interesting to like going back.
So I'm looking at some of the lower ones here.
Yeah, I'm in bad culture fit.
And that's near the bottom here.
And that's just over 30 percent, 32
percent.
And I'm seeing like bad culture fit.

(35:34):
And I get that.
I think that happens no matter what.
I mean, I don't want to I'm not calling dirty.
I'm not on the
well, and the culture fit thing feels like to me that is that's a heavy
one, there's a responsibility for the employer there in a big way,
right?
Right. You
shouldn't be hiring people if you
should be a surprise.
It should not be a surprise.
There should be there should be mechanisms in

(35:55):
place, right?
You are communicating culture
and things like that up front as best you can. Right. But
but I'm also seeing like difficulty
working on a team. And I think that that's true, because I think part of this is. We
just are so individual these
days and
again, not just the college age, because I'm saying
everybody. Yeah, we're such an individual where, you know, I'm I can do.

(36:19):
I have social media. I can go live and I'm an influencer and I'm this and I'm that.
That doesn't take working on a team.
Yeah, there is. There is.
I was having
the age old conversation with Aaron not too long ago.
He was working on a school group project.
We all love these. I hate school.
Don't we love those group projects like that isn't the best

(36:40):
Because we all know, all of you, all of you know, if you've ever worked on a group project,
especially in an academic setting, the high school, college, whatever it is, here's what
you're going to, you will guarantee to always have at least the one person you will have
is the slacker.
You will always have at least one person that is contributing next to nothing to this project

(37:02):
and is really, really hopeful that the other people are going to do their jobs above and
beyond and make up for their lack of performance, right?
And I will say, Andy, in my college experience, I showed no mercy.
When it came to the group review portion, when you submit to the professor like, "Hey,

(37:25):
how do you think the other people did on this project?"
You're like, "Terrible."
Yeah, it was just like, "This person should have to retake this entire class.
They should absolutely not get a free pass.
But I will say, I'm talking with Aaron, it's just like, he's like, "Man, it's so
frustrating
when somebody isn't doing this or that, or they're not..."

(37:47):
And it's like, "Hey, welcome to the rest of your life, and also welcome to..."
Because I remember having a conversation with him, and I was like, "How do you think that
this person that you feel like is not contributing to the group, how do you think you might be
able to like involve them, call them in, right?
Like that's the sort of thing we're talking about where it's like even in your frustration

(38:12):
with working with other people, how might you be able to overcome that?
How might you be able to get through it?
It's a necessary skill, working with each other, which here's the thing, Andy, in our
schools anymore, really the way that you do that is extracurricular activities with our
kids either in the arts, performing arts or within sports or things like that.

(38:33):
Like that, that thing, that's why it's so important.
That's I, it's like you got to get with other people toward a common mission and
figure out, and they're coming from all different backgrounds or anything and
figure out how to climb that hill together.
Right.
That's a, a key skill.
So, uh, yeah, those are the, those are the top 10 kind of reasons in this recent
study, um, that yeah, the recent college graduate, that young 20 something was

(38:56):
just they weren't quite cut in the mustard, Andy, and all
categories to be thinking about as you as parents, guardians
preparing your young people for their future work and even maybe
what they're doing now.
Have those conversations.
So you've got this great
chart here.
And yes, maybe you can explain it for the listening, not

(39:18):
watching.
So here's this is this a little bit of a faith, kind of a faith,
I think, in practical, practical application integration here in
your vocation, what you're doing for a job, but then also like, I think, I think I just,
I think there's a good example to say, I think what God has called us to, in terms of being,

(39:40):
this is what I would say, we're Christian discipleship informs, as it should, our,
how we conduct ourselves in our work and our professionalism in the world.
So this is how these two things overlap.
So this right here is a four quadrant.

(40:01):
I use this in my coaching.
I've used this in the seminar with these recent high school graduates,
people that are kind of taking a gap year fellowship program.
I talked about, there's sort of this quadrant of people.
So you have, there's two key categories that we want to be talking about, character and

(40:28):
competency.
So I, as an employer and as a parent and as a community leader or investing in my community,
whatever, what I am hoping to accomplish, what I'm hoping to do, be the kind of person
I want to be out in the world is to be a high character, high competency person.

(40:52):
Sure.
So that's kind of that upper right hand quadrant there.
A high character, high competency person will see a lot of fruit in their work.
That's true of, again, you in your workplace, that's true of being a, just a, like a disciple
of Jesus, that your character, who you are, what you bring, your honesty, your transparency,

(41:19):
your thoughtfulness, all of those sort of things, what you bring in your person into
other people, that character element is important.
And then the competency.
And now we're kind of talking in competency, we're talking about knowledge and skill.
Like, you know how to do stuff.
Right, right. Competency, like in your in your field, Andy, like competency.

(41:42):
I in my mind, it's like either you have it or you don't.
Right. Like you
have these skills to to to get these results or or you
have it.
Well, you
just don't have them. You know, it's in the in the soft sciences.
There's a little bit more of a fake it till you make it sort of thing.
I get concerned about sometimes.
But so high character, high competency person.
That's that's the goal.

(42:04):
Then we have all these other we have these other quadrants that we don't
talk about enough. The one, so we'll just go around, we'll go around counter, I guess,
counter-clockwise. So then you have a high character, low competency or low skilled

(42:24):
person. I'm going to say this out loud for all of you listening, and I can say this is one area,
because this is a high area of experience for me, and that's what I've seen. Christian ministries
tend to attract this sort of person.
And this is a, they are a sweet, kind, loving person.

(42:46):
People like them.
They are pleasant to be around, but they don't know anything.
Gotcha.
They, they lack necessary skills, but because we're a grace, we love Jesus, Andy, we're
gracious and we're merciful.
We let these people hang around too long in their current roles
or in
places as opposed

(43:07):
to the loving thing we should do is say, "Hey, we see you have a passion for this or desire.
You're a great guy.
You're a great gal.
Let's get you some training.
Let's get you some investment.
Let's do it.
Let's not just dance around this idea that you just don't quite have it yet.
And that's okay, but we want to put
things in place to help you learn and help

(43:29):
you succeed."
Right?
Again, high character, low competency, low skilled person, they're just going to be limited.
That's the problem.
It's going to be kind of a lid on what they're able to do.
Then there's the person, this is really extreme, the low skill, low character person.
They're irrelevant.
They are They're probably not going to be in They're
not
employable. Right.
You're

(43:49):
not going to hire them. You're
probably not going to get them in the position to begin
with. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Unless they're
a complete psychopath and have found a way to dupe everybody, that's an irrelevant person.
They're not making impacts.
Now, here's the other side of the quadrant though, that I really, really want to talk
about because it is, and again, we're talking about, we've seen these people in the workforce,

(44:13):
in the workplace.
We've also seen them, for those of you that are in ministry context or in faith communities,
whatever, we've seen these sort of people.
And this is what I want to talk about because we're starting to wake up to this.
reality a little bit talking about the low character high competency person

(44:37):
this Andy is a dangerous individual this this individual will hurt other people
and will hurt larger organization well
and to be honest I mean you're gonna get
them in in the position because you're saying they're high-skilled yeah they're
skilled for the job hundred percent skilled but
they will use their skills

(44:58):
to get ahead at any cost, right?
Because there's no character there,
right?
There's
no character there.
So they're not thinking about how they're affecting other people necessarily.
They will do what is necessary to get ahead, to be perceived in a certain light, to, you
know, all of that sort of thing.

(45:20):
And so for talking about, again, talking about workplace stuff, even for young people, these
are categories for number one, for you to apply to yourself, asking yourself, "Am I
developing into being a high character, high competency person?"
Not just pleasant to be around, but rather caring, a quality person rooted in good things,

(45:43):
rooted in a right understanding of her identity, but then also just you're absolutely figuring
how to get better at stuff. You're just, you're dedicated to being, to doing everything that you do
with a certain excellence and quality. By the way, and for those of you that are coming from a
faith perspective, we say this because our work is not our work alone. It's an act of worship,

(46:08):
actually. It's an act, it's a reflection of our relationship with God. And so that's vitally
important. It's this low character, high competency person as well that I'm really concerned about.
We've seen a lot of them recently in senior church leadership. This does a lot of damage.

(46:29):
We've had some local instances here. Oh my gosh. They've been in the news here not too
terribly long ago where, and this is why I always get, guys, I'm not cynical, but this
That's where I always get concerned.
The church that they're leading is growing at a rapid rate, more and more programs, bigger
building, all that sort of thing.

(46:50):
And then the news comes out that they have been engaged in things that are just...
Not good.
Not good.
Immensely harmful to people.
And you can kind of connect the dots from where you want to.
We also ask the question, how was this possible?
How did they find themselves in this position?

(47:10):
It's because the particular culture of that organization valued the output, valued the
skill and didn't ask the question about their character.
What was going on inside?
What was their...
What's their...
What are their family relationships look like?
What are their interpersonal relationships look like?

(47:32):
How are they treating their staff?
I mean, it always blows my mind because once the investigation starts on these things,
when something blows up, the investigation starts
in these things, you uncover like, oh,
they had really, really toxic managerial.
You know, they use threats and fear
to lead their staff or whatever.
And this has been going on for years
and everybody's like so like, so caught off guard by it.

(47:54):
Let me just be very, very clear.
We have a problem in our work cultures.
And this is why, by the way,
this is why I think our young adults have seen a lot of this
I think they're a little bit skittish in the workplace of this, where there's a little
bit of an assumption.
There can be an assumption of if you are in a place of authority, you will probably have

(48:16):
some sort of deep corruption within you, right?
So there's like, you know, and it doesn't have to, that doesn't have to be the case
at all, I would say.
So we just want to be on the lookout.
Number one, we don't want to be that person.
We don't want to be the highly skilled person.
And we go, "Hey, I've got all the skills."

(48:37):
And we just check our character development,
check those things that actually matter at
the door
and say, "Eh, if I just keep on this course,
"I'll make all the paychecks that I need to make
"and we'll move forward."
And it's no good.
What we wanna be is a high character,
high competency person.
And that's a really--
- So up in the upper
right hand corner.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(48:57):
And I'll say this, Andy.
I will hire a higher character, lower competency person
than vice versa.
Why?
Because I can't teach character,
but we can teach skills,
right?
So for me, it's like I tell my staff all the time,
we hire for the vibe.

(49:19):
And what that is, is if I have a sense of like,
you're a genuinely, you're a curious person,
I can see that you wanna learn,
I can see
that you've got, you know, whatever,
and that you're ready to enter into a skill development,
of mindset, you have a
growth mindset.
- You're gonna go.
- Great,
we're great.
If you come in trying to impress me with everything,

(49:39):
you know, with who you are and all the things
that you've done or whatever, like that is usually
like a red flag to me, because it's like,
I wanna know what's inside, I wanna know what's in my heart
and that's what's gonna take us the farthest.
That's what's, by the way, that's what's gonna help form
the best team, 'cause if everybody is in that mindset,
right, then we've got, there's really opportunity

(50:00):
for growth and we're all gonna challenge each other,
we're going to teach each other, it's going to be good.
So yeah, for our young adults, for young people, people that are investing, I would say, in
young people as they enter into just life in general and definitely into their various
vocational endeavors, to be thinking about character and competency, both of those things,

(50:23):
how vitally important both are in the development of young people.
And it's because it's not just, Andy, just before I was here, I was with our good friends
Matt and Courtney, who their son Gideon is doing college tours and things like that,
and is looking into possible, you know, what he wants to do in the future.

(50:46):
And I just love the conversation we're having them when I'm talking about what they're going
to do in their college visits about, "Hey, what's going to form our kid?"
Because he wants to go in and be an engineer.
He's really, really
interested in engineering.
How can he be the best engineer?
And also, how can he just be the best human being?
- Yeah.
- Like how, and where are the places
that we're gonna be investing with those things?

(51:07):
- Up in that upper right
hand.
- Yeah, that's right.
To the up and to the right, right?
How are we gonna, how are we going to see him
become a fruitful person?
And, you know, have a commitment,
a kingdom commitment, right?
That he is a disciple of Jesus as well,
that he's gonna go and be dangerous
for the sake of the kingdom.
But also, he's gonna be doggone good at being an engineer.

(51:31):
- Yeah.
- You know, and it's gonna make a really vital impact
to whatever company he works for and all of that.
And I don't know, Andy, do the next,
I was the next slide there.
This
is-- - This one here.
- This one, this was on my
presentation, super
funny.
So here's my other thing I've been thinking about.

(51:51):
The quote here is, I say,
"You will lose opportunities for authentic witness
if you suck at your job.
And then I said that quote was from Abraham Lincoln.
That's not true at all.
I just try to keep people on their toes.
But there's something to be,
you know, I've just been thinking about that.
Like in like in my situation,

(52:11):
if you're out in like a secular marketplace,
so to
speak,
and you have this sense of like,
hey, I want to be a witness in my work.
You know, I want to be able to share faith
and things like that.
This is the reality, if you are better at your job,
you will have more opportunities to do that.

(52:33):
If you suck at your job,
you will lose those opportunities.
It is hard for people to take
what you say seriously
in terms of you want to share good news with them,
life changing news with them.
It's harder for them to take that seriously.
If you are coming from a place of just of like just
poor performance and poor engagement and poor work ethic and all of that. So, the two go together.

(52:59):
This is, and this is why, I mean, again, do all things as unto the Lord, right? Do your work.
Do your work well. Be an excellent example in all of that. So, yeah, that's my, oh, you even got the,
we don't, we seldom, we seldom throw a Bible verse up here, but
that's,
yeah. Colossians 3,

(53:19):
23 through 24. This is, and that's kind of a, it's just a great grounding.
If you want to have a kind of a faith based discussion with your kids about,
about work, about vocation. Um, yeah,
whatever you do, do it with all your heart as working for the Lord,
not human masters.
Since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward.

(53:40):
It is the Lord Christ you are serving. Gosh, guys, if, if,
if I don't know what says it more clearly than that.
And I would even say like, again, we were Christians. We're not,
the show is not necessarily a Christian.
And so I know we have people that aren't Christians, but that,
even that and just in general, like do whatever you do with all your heart.
Like, like do it well. Like, so even, even if you take,

(54:01):
I don't want to say take God out of that scripture,
the scripture,
but I mean like that's a good, even if you're not a Christian,
that's a good scripture to
base your
whole, the way you do your job on.
No, I, I just,
I just think that if you do your work with all of your heart, if you find a way, and
again, I know there's a whole bunch of different kinds of jobs out there, whole different working

(54:22):
environments, all of that.
But if you can find a way to do what you're doing, to give yourself fully to the work
that you're doing, I think you're better for it.
I think we're all better for it.
I think if we can call our, you know, our young people to that and remind them of that
and kind of have a have a culture and understanding of around that, you know, toward the work

(54:45):
that they do.
It's good.
It's going to go better.
And we're going to help our young people succeed because apparently there's some struggles
going on right now in the workplace.
And we think a few corrective measures might help help them succeed.
So,
Joel.
We have come to the end.
Oh, we have an amazing episode.
Thank you.

(55:06):
It has been amazing.
Do you have any final comments before we wrap tonight?
see what here's the comments, and we haven't said this for a while.
For people that are listening to this show, the like, subscribe,
share all of that sort of stuff.
I've just been thinking about this.
Yes,
it's
again.
We're not out here for a fame and fortune.

(55:26):
What it does do is it helps other people find the show because
it's like a hey, if you like this, then the algorithms they work
in mysterious ways, but it helps other people discover the show.
It helps other people be invited to the community.
So I would just say if you have in any way at any time,
miraculously benefited from the content of these conversations

(55:49):
that we have on the dudes and dads podcast, if you would man
on your socials, share it with others.
We love that.
Like follow hit the hit the bell.
The notification
thing is good.
So Roy
is asking if we are on YouTube.
Yes, Roy, we are.
You can find us at dudes and dads dot com slash YouTube.
We'll take you to our YouTube show.
Thanks for though.

(56:09):
Thanks for the question and by the way an opportunity for us to just unshame
Shamelessly plug the YouTube that's great.
Yes, good dudes and dads comm slash YouTube will take you to their YouTube channel mm
-hmm
Yes, yeah, well you get to see us you get to see the real the real us
And I would say hit up our voicemail because again we love our voicemail so five seven four five zero one four four six three

(56:33):
And you know what Joel hmm what Andy?
I'm really digging this music.
Yeah,
yeah, yeah as always show music theme music provided by the incomparable Scott Allen
What a treasure he is
And again Scott Allen teaching the young people down at Grace College investing in their future gonna be great

(56:57):
Great musicians great. Yes studio people recorders all of that all that good stuff. We thank you Scott
Hey everybody as always you can connect with us over at
at
dudesanddance.com.
That's right, dudesanddance
.com.
Got all previous episodes, show notes, all that good stuff.
Hey, thanks for tuning in.
Yeah, remember to like, share, subscribe,

(57:17):
do all that stuff, we appreciate it.
And until next time, we wish you grace.
- And peace.
Roy found us.
- We found you, Roy.
Thanks, Roy.