Vandal Savage vs Sebastian Shaw

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is a DynaMic Network Podcast. Superherofans, this is it. Black Friday and Cyber Monday

(00:07):
week are here and OldGlory.com is the place to gearup for the holidays. They've got thousands of
official Marvel and DC t-shirts, hoodies, andgifts ready to ship the same day so you can find
something for every hero on your list, oryourself. This week you get 15% off everything in
the shop when you use the promo code Duel atcheckout. That's right, D-U-E-L as the promo code

(00:31):
for the best deal of the year. Shop now beforeheroes and villains alike sell out at
OldGlory.com. Hi, welcome to the Dynamic DuelPodcast, a weekly show where we review superhero

(01:03):
films and debate the superiority between Marveland DC by comparing their characters in
stat-based battle simulations. I'm Johnny DC.And I'm his twin brother, Marvelous Joe. And in
this episode we are doing a duel between twoclassic and classic looking DC and Marvel
villains, Vandal Savage against Sebastian Shaw.We didn't think that we were actually going to get

(01:28):
to this duel episode, but we had a few openingslargely because we won't be reviewing Wonder Man
before the podcast ends in mid-January becauseWonder Man got pushed back. So yeah, that left the
opening. I'm really glad to be squeezing inSebastian Shaw into one of these duels because
he's a total badass X-Men villain and I thought hewas done really well in the X-Men first class film
played by Kevin Bacon. Yeah, and Vandal Savage is areally prominent DC villain who I'm surprised we

(01:54):
haven't gotten to yet. He was the main antagonistof Legends of Tomorrow Season 1, but you know, he's
also shown up pretty much all over DC media,including being the main villain of several
animated films. Yeah, like Justice League Doom orSuicide Squad Hell to Pay. But before we get into
that duel, we're going to break down the comic bookmovie news from the past week, of which there

(02:15):
wasn't movie news, but there was comic book newsand that this past week was the release of the
Batman Deadpool crossover comic book thatfeatured new DC and Marvel crossover stories that
we're going to talk about. As always, we list oursegment times and our episode description, so
feel free to check out the show notes if you want toskip ahead to a particular topic. Our

(02:35):
artificially intelligent duel simulator, AJ9K,has a quick message for our listeners, so listen
up. Why hello there. Do you want even more from thispodcast? Then become a part of the Dynamic Duo
community on Patreon where you can choose fromthree tiers. The Dynamic Duo tier gives you access
to our Discord chat server, the Fantastic Fourtier gives you two bonus episodes each month, and

(02:58):
the X-Force tier makes you an executive producerof this show. Lastly, the Diner Mike podcast
network tier lets you create your own podcastusing this Monte Carlo simulator. Johnny and Joe
will help you develop your show, provide graphicsupport and consultation, and get you simulation
results. Pitch the twins your ideas via email atdynamicdualpodcast at gmail.com. Check it out at

(03:19):
patreon.com slash dynamicdual. Pip pip cheerio.Thanks AJ9K and thanks to everyone who supports
the podcast. Be sure to tune in to the other shows inthe Diner Mike podcast network this week,
including the console combat podcast, wherehosts John and Dean simulate battles between
popular video game characters. In yesterday'sepisode, they found out who would win between the

(03:42):
boss from Metal Gear and Colonel Mail Radick fromKillzone. Over on the Max Destruction podcast
hosts Scotty and Gilly pit your favorite actionheroes from film and television against each
other. The Macho Twins are taking a quick break forthe month of November, but they'll be back in
December with some Christmas season duels. On theCingro World podcast, host Zachary Hepburn

(04:02):
speculates on fights between fan favorite animeand manga characters. In his next episode, Zach is
revealing who would win between ShigeyoKagayama, aka Mob from Mob Psycho 100, and
Tatsumaki the tornado of terror from One PunchMan. Visit dynamicpodcasts.com or click the link
in our show notes to listen to all the shows in theDiner Mike podcast network. But with that out of

(04:24):
the way, quick to the no prize. A no prize is an awardthat Marvel used to give out to fans. Our version,
the dynamic duel no prize, is a digital award wepost on Instagram for the person that we feel gave
the best answer to our question of the week. Lastweek, we asked you guys, what Marvel versus DC
crossover have you always wanted to see in thecomic books? And why? We got a few answers, so let's

(04:48):
run down our honorable mentions as well as the noprize winner. Our first honorable mention goes to
Was, who I'm just going to assume is Steve Wasniak,the co-founder of Apple. He said, Hi, this is the
Was, and I'm calling to give my opinion on who Iwould want to see from DC and Marvel fight. And

(05:10):
maybe this has already been done in the comics and Ijust haven't seen it. You can let me know. But I want
to see Superman versus the Hulk, because whatreally can kill the Hulk? Not much anything. So I'm
not surprised you didn't know the answer to this,Steve Wasniak, because you were helping to
develop Apple in the mid 90s when the DC versusMarvel comic crossover came out, in which

(05:31):
Superman did in fact fight the Hulk and defeat him.Yeah. So wasn't the Superman Hulk matchup one of
the voted on battles within that comic bookseries? I believe it was, yes. So really, it was
just a popularity contest. The Hulk could have wonif the fans had voted that way. But luckily, we have
a podcast that has determined that Superman wouldin fact beat the Hulk, no matter which iteration,

(05:55):
because Superman is just better. We don't knowthat. We haven't determined that. What are you
talking about? Kingdom Come Superman beatMaestro. Oh, yeah. Bizarro beat Abomination.
Isn't that enough? I still think there's a chancethat the Hulk can beat Superman. We'll see. Maybe
in a few months, we'll actually run the stats onthat. Hey, shut up. Great answer, Steve Wasniak.
Our next honorable mention goes to Daniel Alonso,who said, Okay, so I know this is going to be really

(06:20):
hard for everybody because DC has so very fewactually good characters that are cool. But one
that I actually just really, really, really wouldlove to see is King Daredevil and Fallen Grayson
Nightwing team up together. I think that would beso sick if like they were going up against the hand

(06:42):
that teamed up with the quarter vowels. I mean,come on. And they would look amazing. Yeah, they
would look amazing because of their beards,right? This is the era of each character's arcs
where they grew heavy beards. Daredevil had takenover as like the new kingpin and he had some magical
amped up senses. Yeah. And in the Fallen Graysonstoryline, Dick Grayson is captured and

(07:07):
seemingly killed. So they have to essentiallyfake his death. And during that time, he became a
secret agent who, yes, also had a beard. And thengoing up against the hand and the quarter vowels.
Hell yeah. Hell yeah. Great answer, DanielAlonso. Our final honorable mention would go to by
Dear Bangor. But unfortunately, the audio was tooquite to make out, but we still want to say thank you

(07:28):
for calling in. The winner of this week's snowprize is Alex Albro, who said, Hey guys, for me,
it's got to be Black Panther versus Hawkman. Maybethey're trying to enhance new medical security
weaponry developments with vibranium keepingout extraterrestrial threats the whole deal. And
they realize it's not enough and they need to useenthmetal. Hawkman doesn't take too kindly to

(07:49):
this and decides maybe he wants vibranium forhimself and his people. And so it just brings down
the wrath of Danagar and Wakanda. I think seeingthese two guys go to war would be epic. I think they
have a lot more in common than the Metsuii. And thiswould just be insane. This sounds amazing as
everyone knows metal that can absorb vibrationsis way better than metal that can defy gravity. I

(08:12):
mean, is it? I don't think it is. I think gravitydefying metal and really universal forces
defying metal is way cooler than just metal thatfucking vibrates, bro. It doesn't vibrate. It
absorbs vibrations. You're confusing it forAntarctic vibranium. Think about it. Would you
rather stop vibrations or freaking fly? It'sessentially bulletproof metal. I mean, so is a lot

(08:37):
of metals. Fair enough. Fair enough. I think thedynamic between a character like Black Panther
and Hawkman would play out pretty well, too,though. They're both pretty badass. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. I would love to see those characterscrossover. Who do you think would win in a fight
between the Wakandans and the Thanagarians? Oh,Thanagarians. All they would have to do is just
drop a bomb on them from space. Although Wakandanswould have to do is just fire a missile at them from

(09:04):
Earth. Oh, and then they could just move their shipout of orbit and dodge the missile entirely. Can
you move Wakanda? No, but it has a protective dome.So, oh, yeah, that's right. Air superiority, my
man. What else can I say? Well, Wakandans were thefirst people from Earth to really start
interstellar colonies. So I mean, they're nostrangers to space. Oh, they're just starting

(09:26):
out. That's cute. No, they've been at it for awhile. Like it was due to a time anomaly. There are
Wakandan space colonies in Marvel Comics. Fullon. Dude, Thanagar is a space empire. Think of them
like the Shi'ar. The Wakandans are nothing likethe Shi'ar. No, they're better. Do they have an
imperial guard? No, but they have the Dormalage.Anyway, we're getting off track here. We could

(09:48):
probably dedicate an entire episode to Wakandaversus Thanagar, I think. Just hold your
thoughts. Let's agree that Wakanda would win.Let's move on. So thank you, Alex Albra, for
calling in with your no prize winning answer. Oh,I'm not ready to move on. If you, the listener, want
a shot at winning your own no prize, stay tuned tolater on this episode when we'll be asking another
question of the week. But now that that's done, youknow why Thanagar would win? Why? Because they

(10:11):
reincarnate, whereas Wakandans just go to theirancestral plane and they could stay there. But
it's not like they fall down dead and then rise upright away. They reincarnate like on the other
side of the fucking universe. So it's fine. It'sfine. They move fast. OK. And now that that's done,
on to the news. All right, last week, we talked toyou guys about the digital comic books that Marble

(10:36):
and DC released that were crossovers for Thor andShazam and The Flash and Fantastic Four. Those
digital issues were released in lead up to thispast week's physical comic book release of Batman
Deadpool, which was the second part of a comic bookcrossover between Marvel and DC. We talked about
the Deadpool Batman crossover when that came out.And we talked about what we liked and didn't like

(10:59):
from the issue. I do have to say that the DC series ofstories didn't blow me away like the Marvel one
did. Like I was a huge fan of the Deadpool Batmancrossover story written by Zeb Wells. I was a big
fan. Grant Morrison wrote this issues, Batman,Deadpool crossover. And, you know, Grant
Morrison is a he's a legend. He's really talented.That being said, I found his work in this issue to be

(11:24):
a little bit masturbatory for lack of a betterword, because not only did he insert himself into
the story, he also inserted his Cassandra Nova andDamien Wayne creations. And the story in all was
just a little all over the place. It wasn't as cleanand pure as the Zeb Wells story. Well, you know,
with Grant Morrison, his stories haven't beencleaned for a long time. I'm not a huge Grant

(11:48):
Morrison fan. Really? I think because of thatreason. I think if you're going to tell a good
story, it shouldn't be that dense. It shouldn't bethat difficult to interpret what is going on. He's
like the Christopher Nolan of comic book writers.He tries to be, but he's less accessible. You know,
I thought the story was actually really good uponsecond read, but you had to read it twice to

(12:12):
appreciate it. Sometimes that's just the casewith like nonlinear storytelling. There are a lot
of stories out there that I enjoy more upon secondread or second rewatch. Well, it's not about
enjoying it more. It's about basicallyunderstanding it. And I understood it more the
second time. Therefore, I enjoyed it more. It's achoice. It's a choice that I think proves to be less

(12:33):
successful than the Marvel version of thecrossover. I do think you're right in that Marvel
is better than DC. Yes. I did not say that. Yeah,it's hard to tell which set of stories was better
because while the Marvel release had the betterDeadpool Batman story, it also had shit like The
Dark Knight, an old man Logan story and like thecrypto and Jeff the Landshark story. There was

(12:56):
nothing that was quite as pointless in this DCissue. In addition to the Batman Deadpool story,
we also got Constantine meets Doctor Strange,Nightwing and Laura Kinney's Wolverine, Harley
Quinn and the Hulk and Static versus Miss Marvel.And I enjoyed all of those, except for maybe the
Harley Quinn Hulk one. I was expecting more fromthat, although I don't know why. Yeah, that was my

(13:18):
least favorite, too. The rest were fine. Overall,a decent effort. And the last comic, my favorite
was the Wonder Woman Captain America story. Andthis one, I would say my favorite was the Nightwing
Wolverine one. That was good. I also really likedthe Static Miss Marvel one. It was really short,
but it was nice to see the parallels between the twocharacters. I'll leave it vague there. We highly

(13:39):
recommend visiting your local comic book storeand picking up a few issues of Deadpool Batman and
Batman Deadpool. Take advantage of thishistorical moment while you can, folks. It only
happens once every few decades. I mean, I hope theydo more crossovers. I'm actually really loving
this Infiniverse or whatever they want to call it,where the two universes join together. And next

(14:01):
time they better do a Hawkman Black Panther story.That would be cool. I would also accept a Black
Panther Aquaman story. Oh, that'd be cool, too,for sure. But speaking of comic book crossovers
within this issue, that brings us to our questionof the week. What was your favorite story within

(14:22):
the Batman Deadpool crossover comic? And why thisis for the comic book readers out there? Those of
you who picked up and read the issue, go ahead andrecord your answer at dynamicdool.com by
clicking on the red microphone button in thebottom right hand corner of the screen, which will
prompt you to leave us a voicemail. Your messagecould be up to 30 seconds long, and don't forget to
leave your name in case we include you on thepodcast. We'll pick our favorite answer and award

(14:46):
that person a dynamic duel no prize that will postto Instagram. Be sure to answer before November
29th. But that is it for all of the news for thisepisode. Let's go ahead and move on to the main
event where we find out who is going to win betweenthe villain characters of Vandal Savage and

(15:10):
Sebastian Shaw. Vandal Savage vs Sebastian ShawOK, Vandal Savage vs Sebastian Shaw. Now, for the

(15:31):
longest time, I didn't really know who we could pitVandal Savage against considering his main power
is essentially that he's immortal. He hassomething of a healing factor as well. But I
couldn't figure out who a good analog would beagainst him until whenever executive producers,
Devin Davis, suggested pitting him againstSebastian Shaw largely because of how the

(15:51):
characters look. They both look very, I guess youcould say, Victorian. I guess you could describe
it as that they both wear very old fashioned suits,like three piece suits. It's part of the wardrobe
for the inner circle of the Hellfire Club, of whichSebastian Shaw is one of the leaders.
Traditionally, he's known as the Black Kingbecause all of the inner circle members are named

(16:13):
after chess pieces. Yeah, they have aninteresting wardrobe, like the guys dress up like
they're from 1800s Britain and the women dress upin lingerie. What is going on there? I don't know. I
don't know. It does seem like a double standard, ifI must say. Of course, we did a duel with the White
Queen Emma Frost against Poison Ivy quite a fewyears ago. And that was a fun episode. You guys

(16:34):
should definitely go check that out if you want tolearn more about the Hellfire Club. We also did a
duel between mastermind of the Hellfire Club andPsycho Pirate, where we also delved into that
club's history. Vandal Savage has been a part of anumber of teams, which I'll break down in the
character's backstory. But first, to explain themethodology behind our duels, let's go to our
sentient duel simulator, Alfred Jarvis, 9000.AJ9K tell our listeners how you go about

(16:59):
determining a winner in our duel matchups. Yes, ofcourse, sir. The way I determine a winner between
the contestants is by running 1000 Monte Carlosimulations using the character's statistics. A
Monte Carlo simulation is a probabilistic modelused to determine outcomes through random
sampling. In this case, I randomize thestatistics along a normal distribution as a way to

(17:21):
simulate the many variables that can occur duringbattle. The stat parameters are based on the
official Marvel power grid from which the DCcharacters' statistics are extrapolated.
Additional stat categories are included such asrange, damage potential, versatility and
perception in order to create a more detailed andaccurate simulation. The results of the 1000

(17:41):
simulations provide a percentage of wins for eachcharacter. The contestant with the higher
percentage is declared the victor as they have ahigher probability to win any given battle. In an
equitable pairing, neither character should win100% of the matches. The comic book stories have
shown that there's even a way for Batman to defeatSuperman, so the confidence rate of my method

(18:01):
falls in line with the precedents that have beenestablished in the source material. My
mathematical simulations are withoutsubjectivity or bias. Feats are not the sole
consideration, nor are fan votes tabulated fordetermination of the winner. Thanks, AJ9K.
Before we run the simulations, though, we'd liketo break down each of the character's histories
and abilities before improvising a scenario onhow we imagined one of the 1000 simulations would

(18:25):
play out beat for beat. And it's my turn to go firstwith the DC characters backstory, so let me tell
you all about Vandal Savage. Now, Vandar Og wasborn roughly 50,000 years ago as the chief of the
Crow Magnan Blood Tribe. As a young hunter, hewitnessed a glowing meteor crash to Earth.

(18:46):
Exposure to its radiation, later understood tocontain microscopic tech-tites, dramatically
increased his intelligence, halted his aging andmade him effectively immortal. A rival caveman of
the Bear Tribe claimed a fragment of the samemeteor as an amulet and became the immortal man,
destined to reincarnate endlessly and opposeVandar throughout history. Over the centuries

(19:10):
that followed, Vandar adopted many names androles. At times, he acted openly as Warlord, King,
Conqueror or Pharaoh. At others, he served asadvisor, strategist or manipulator behind the
scenes. He claimed numerous historicalidentities, though many were exaggerations
meant to magnify his legend. His immortalityallowed him to gather knowledge of warfare,

(19:33):
politics, culture and science across multipleeras. And his mastery of strategy made him a
recurring architect of upheaval. In ancientAtlantis, Vandal founded a secret society known
as the Children of Light, whose influence helpeddestabilize Atlantean power. Before the
continent sank, his followers spread across theworld as the Illuminati. In Egypt, he ruled as

(19:58):
Coffrey, until Nubu the Wise forged a mysticalsymbol of power to overthrow him, beginning a
conflict that echoed through theirincarnations. In Europe, Asia and the
Mediterranean world, Vandal served or opposedleaders ranging from Napoleon and Bismarck to
Genghis Khan. Across the ages, he repeatedlyclashed with reincarnating enemies, such as

(20:20):
Prince Khufu and Shaira, later known as Hockmanand Hock Girl, and with the immortal man and
resurrection man, whose tectite-linked powersmirrored his own. His immortality was imperfect,
however. The tectite's healed wounds but alsopreserved an early intestinal cancer, causing
periodic agony throughout his life. To survivecatastrophic injuries or organ failure, he

(20:43):
periodically relied on descendants whosegenetic material could restore failing tissues.
As civilization progressed, Vandal Savagecontinued shaping events from the shadows. In the
20th century, he confronted the Justice Societyof America, beginning a recurring rivalry with
the Green Lantern Alan Scott, who you can learnmore about in our Green Lantern vs. Iceman duel

(21:04):
episode. When the Justice Society retired in the1950s under pressure from the House Un-American
Activities Committee, Savage helped engineerpolitical pressure to force their withdrawal,
clearing the stage for later plans. Assuperheroes re-emerged, Vandal expanded his
operations with scientific research, fundingprojects through shell organizations and

(21:26):
adopting new identities. Under aliases such asBurt Villars, he confronted Wally West, the
Flash, who exposed Savage's involvement inexperiments and illegal dealings. Savage
pioneered the Super Speed Drug Velocity 9,distributing it through criminal networks with
the intent of creating an army of addictedsupercriminals. The drug caused rapid aging and

(21:49):
strokes, and the Flash dismantled the operation.You can learn more about Wally West in our Flash vs.
Speedball episode. Savage's immortalityoccasionally faltered, forcing him to pursue
methods to replenish it. Savage financed aclandestine research group known only as the Lab,
directing its scientists to replicate thetectites that sustained his immortality. Their

(22:12):
experiments on unwilling subjects, including anamnesiac man named Mitch Shelley, led to the
creation of the Resurrection Man. When a timewarped tectite creature threatened reality,
Savage temporarily allied with Immortal Man andResurrection Man. Immortal Man sacrificed
himself to destroy the creature, ending theancient rivalry. The Resurrection Man inherited

(22:34):
the role of Savage's primary adversary. Seekingfurther influence, Savage manipulated
conflicts involving the new Titans. He foundedthe villain team Tartarus using Gohman's powers
to select members, then targeted Adeline Wilsonfor her blood in a new immortality serum. The
Titans stopped him after a violent confrontationthat left several villains dead or defecting. You

(22:58):
can learn more about the Titans in their team duelagainst the X-Men. Savage's descent toward more
extreme measures continued. He became the leaderof a doomsday cult and obtained an alien summoner
device capable of dragging an asteroid namedThanatos toward Earth. Savage intended to
engineer a mass extinction and remakecivilization from the ruins, though the Flash

(23:19):
reversed the summoner's pull, sending theasteroid away. Savage deliberately threw
himself onto the beam, believing a second meteorexposure would elevate his power, and he was
hurled into space on the redirected rock. Hesurvived the journey and in time returned to
Earth. His next major conflict placed him at oddswith the Justice Society again. Savage formed the

(23:43):
Fourth Reich, a group of neo-Nazi metahumanstasked with exterminating the descendants of
Golden Age heroes. They murdered severalfamilies before being defeated. Savage was
struck down by a fire truck in the final battle butlater escaped. Savage was eventually captured
and sent to the Salvation Planet alongside othervillains. He established a temporary domain by

(24:05):
exploiting female villains, but the grouprebelled and he fled during an attack from
apocalyptic forces. Savage resurfaced duringthe final crisis as a high ranking member of the
Society of Supervillains. The religion of crimestabbed him with the spirit of destiny,
resurrecting him as Cain, the biblical firstmurderer. As Cain, Savage overpowered the

(24:28):
Spectre and separated him from his host beforebeing stopped by the question. The Spectre
branded Savage with the mark of Cain, condemninghim to wander the Earth, reviled, and unable to
hide the mark. Savage later manipulated FrannyMontoya into taking the mark from him. You can
learn more about the Spectre and the question fromtheir respective duels against Galactus and

(24:51):
Echo. Eventually, Savage became involved withthe surviving faction of his prehistoric tribe,
the Insiders, who had also been altered by themeteor. He formed a temporary alliance with
Russell Gull and the Outsiders to prevent theinsiders from claiming more meteorite
fragments. When Savage's immortality againbegan to fail, he attempted to prolong his life by

(25:14):
stealing Alan Scott's DNA using a mutated Sandmanclone, but the scheme collapsed. Savage
ritualistically consumed a clone of himself totemporarily restore his vitality. In
post-Flashpoint continuity, Vandal Savage wasborn 47,000 years ago into the Wolf Tribe. He
murdered his father after a meteor landed nearby,which bathed him in transformative radiation,

(25:39):
granting immortality, superhuman strength, andheightened senses. Members of the Bear Tribe
exposed to the same meteor became fellowimmortals forming the Council of Immortals. He
waged war against the Han dynasty, served as SirSavage in the Crusades, and clashed with Pandora
in Antioch. Savage joined the Demon Knights afterthe fall of Camelot, fighting alongside Etrican,

(26:03):
Madame Zanadu, and the Shining Knights. Duringfailed attempts to monitor returning meteors
predicted by Shang-Hen, he murdered both John andCopernicus. His activities continued into the
19th century when he carried a plague into GothamCity using his immune body as a vessel before being
stopped by Jonah Hex. Who you've learned moreabout in our last episode, Jonah Hex vs.

(26:25):
Deathwarp. He supported Nazi operations duringWorld War II and attempted to reach a returning
meteor via rocket flights. When the pilotrejected his plan, Savage killed him after the
craft crashed. In the modern era, Savageperiodically operated as a serial killer and was
imprisoned until freed by the Seeker Societyduring the crime syndicate's invasion. He became

(26:48):
involved in multiversal studies with LionelLuther and manipulated his immortal children
during an attempt to intercept another meteor.During this period, he infected Superman with
radiation that hindered his solar absorption.Savage captured multiple Justice League members
and stole the Fortress of Solitude whilepreparing for the Comet's return. When the Comet

(27:09):
passed near Earth, Savage absorbed enhancedpower but reverted after Superman dispersed the
Comet's energies. Later Savage opposed LexLuthor's attempt to wield the Totality and of the
few forces capable of ending his immortality andwas killed by a shard of its power. Following the
restoration of the multiverse after the finalcrisis with the darkest night, Savage was among

(27:32):
the many beings returned to life. He later joined anew organization called the Totality, a
multiversal council created to monitor risingcosmic threats. And that's his history.
Powers-wise, Vandal Savage is an immortalenhanced by tectites or meteor-borne energies
that halt aging, regenerate tissue, and grantsuperhuman strength, resilience, stamina, and

(27:56):
high-end senses. He could recover from lethalwounds, survive extreme conditions, and endure
diseases that would kill others. Hisintelligence has developed over millennia,
making him a master strategist, tactician,linguist, and combatant. His skill spans ancient
and modern weaponry, hand-to-hand combat,battlefield command, and scientific and

(28:17):
political manipulation. His healing has limits,severe organ damage may require graphs from
descendants or clones, and that's Vandal Savage.But how strong is he though? He's Crow Magnum
strong. You could consider him as strong as asilverback. Okay. And how quick is his healing
factor? Is it like Wolverine deadpool speed orslower than that? I wouldn't say it's quite as fast

(28:40):
as Wolverine's, which has gotten progressivelyfaster in the comic books I might add over the
years. Let's say it's inconsistent in the comics.Like I've seen him literally take an arrow to the
head and still keep fighting. Okay, interesting.You know, his origin reminded me a lot of Ulysses
Bloodstones from the comic books, who is thefather of Elsa Bloodstone. I don't know if you

(29:01):
remember his origin from her duel againstFrankenstein. Vaguely. I'm not sure who came
first, but I'm just gonna say that Vandal Savage isa huge rip-off of Ulysses Bloodstone, and no, I'm
not gonna fact check that. Vandal Savage has beenaround since 1943, so I feel like that's a bold
claim. I stand by what I said. Would you stand by ifyou found out that Ulysses Bloodstone first

(29:23):
appeared in 1975? Yes, I would. Okay. But enoughabout Bloodstone, let me go ahead and tell you all
about the X-Men villain Sebastian Shaw.Sebastian Shaw was born in Pittsburgh,
Pennsylvania, where his father Jacob had settledafter fleeing the United Kingdom. Jacob had spent
years working in secret for the geneticist Mr.Sinister, whose experiments on mutants

(29:45):
convinced Jacob that Sinister posed a danger tohis family. You can learn more about Sinister in
his duel against the Ultra Humanite. Wanting adifferent life for his son, Jacob escaped
Sinister's control and tried to raise Sebastianin America far from that influence. Despite this
effort, the two lived in deep poverty, andSebastian worked in a steel mill from a young age to

(30:07):
help support himself and his father. Despitetheir circumstances, Jacob pushed him toward
education, and Sebastian excelledacademically. After Jacob's death, Sebastian
received a full scholarship to the StevensInstitute of Technology in New Jersey, but
celebrating this achievement led to disaster. Agroup of wealthy young men angry that someone from

(30:27):
a poor background could attend such a prestigiousschool, cornered and beat him. The trauma of this
attack triggered his mutant power for the firsttime. Sebastian discovered he could absorb the
force of physical impacts and convert the energyinto strength, allowing him to overpower his
attackers. At college, Sebastian devotedhimself to engineering and business. After

(30:50):
graduating, he quickly became known as a geniuswith a remarkable talent for understanding
economics and technology. He founded ShawIndustries, a company that grew rapidly through
defense contracts and munitions development. By30, he was a millionaire, and by 40, he was a
billionaire. During these years, Shaw alsobecame romantically involved with a woman named

(31:11):
Lorde Chantel, a mutant teleporter, and he beganraising a boy named Shinobi as his own. Shaw's
wealth drew the attention of the Hellfire Club,which was an elite society of influential
business and political leaders. Its publicreputation was one of luxury and exclusivity, but
many members belonged to a secret leadershipgroup called the Inner Circle. Shaw accepted the

(31:34):
invitation to join and soon became the BlackBishop. His partner Lords distrusted the club,
fearing it would corrupt him, but Shaw sawopportunity and ignored her concerns. Within the
Inner Circle, Shaw worked alongside Emma Frost,Harry Leland, Donald Pierce, and the White King
Ned Buckman. The White King had the Hellfire Clubfinancially support the Sentinel program under

(31:57):
the cover of scientific research. In reality, theSentinels were anti-mutant robots designed to
hunt and kill mutants. You can learn more aboutthem in our Amazo vs Bastion dual episode. When
Shaw discovered the truth about Sentinels, heconfronted Buckman, but the White King betrayed
him and sent Sentinels to eliminate Shaw and hisallies. During the attack, Lords died protecting

(32:22):
Shaw. Grief stricken and furious, Shaw and EmmaFrost turned on the Inner Circle. Using Emma's
telepathy, they forced Buckman to kill the othermembers and then himself. Shaw then declared
himself the new Black King of the Hellfire Club andEmma Frost became the new White Queen. You can
learn more about Emma Frost in her dual againstPoison Ivy. As Black King, Shaw worked to expand

(32:46):
the club's influence over world politics andcorporations. He used Shaw Industries to build
and control Sentinel technology, believing itwas safer for mutants if he held power over the
machines, rather than leaving them in the hands ofanti-mutant forces. Shaw also courted powerful
figures like Senator Robert Kelly and Henry PeterGeirich, pretending to be a human supremacist to

(33:08):
allay suspicion while advancing his own plans. Healso attempted to recruit Namor of Atlantis as the
Hellfire Club's White King. Namor refused andShaw's retaliatory use of Sentinels against
Atlantis created a lasting enemy. You can learnmore about Namor in her Aquaman vs Submariner dual
episode. Shaw's ambitions soon collided with theX-Men. Through one of the club's assassins, he

(33:32):
planted surveillance devices in Xavier'smansion, allowing the Hellfire Club to track new
mutants as soon as Cerebro detected them. The clubattempted to recruit or capture new mutants such
as Kitty Pryde and Dazzler, leading to directconfrontation between the Inner Circle and the
X-Men. During this conflict, Mastermindmanipulated Jean Grey, not realizing she was

(33:53):
actually the Phoenix Force. When Phoenix brokefree of his control, she fought back with
devastating power, forcing Shaw and the InnerCircle to retreat. You can learn more about
Professor X and Jean Grey in their respectiveduels against the Chief and Raven. The Hellfire
Club later fought alongside the X-Men against thefuture Sentinel Nimrod. During the battle, Harry
Leland used his gravity powers to send Shawcrashing into Nimrod at incredible speed. The

(34:19):
attack destroyed Nimrod, but the exertion killedLeland, leaving Shaw without an ally in the Inner
Circle. Not long after, Magneto joined the club asthe new White King. He, the Black Queen Selene, and
Emmafrost the White Queen voted to remove Shawfrom power, citing his reckless support of the
Sentinel program. Shaw attempted to rebuild hisinfluence, but his adopted son, Shinobi,

(34:42):
attacked him, phasing a hand into his chest toinduce a heart attack and then blowing up Shaw's
chalet. Although presumed dead, Shaw survivedand later resurfaced allied with Holocaust, a
destructive mutant from another timeline, tocapture X-Force. However, the plan failed when
Cable freed his team, whom we've learned moreabout in our Outsiders vs X-Force duel episode.

(35:04):
Shaw next pursued the Elixir Vitae, a substance hebelieved could cure the legacy virus, which was a
disease that was lethal to mutants, which you canlearn more about in our Beast Boy vs Beast duel
episode. Shaw later regained control of theHellfire Club and worked to rebuild the Inner
Circle by turning the New York branch into anightclub for gathering secrets from wealthy

(35:26):
patrons. He recruited Miss Sinister, a femaleclone of Mr. Sinister, and attempted to
manipulate Wolverine's son, Daken. Emma Frosteventually recovered the memories of her past
connection with Namor and blamed Shaw for theSentinel strike that had destroyed Atlantis. She
struck a deal with Namor. If she removed Shawpermanently, Namor would pledge to defend mutant

(35:47):
kind as his own people. Emma lured Shaw into a trap,telepathically incapacitated him, and rather
than killing him, secretly transported him toUtopia, which was the X-Men's island
headquarters off the coast of San Francisco.There, she had him placed in the X-Brick, which was
an underwater prison facility that the X-Men usedto confine dangerous mutants. For a time, Shaw

(36:09):
remained imprisoned, his whereabouts unknown tomost of the mutant community. Emma eventually
decided that keeping Shaw was too dangerous andhad Shaw released using her telepathy to wipe his
memories and leaving him unaware of his identityor any past crimes. Months later, Shaw was found in
Pakistan and taken to the Avengers Academy wherehe was placed in a special cell that absorbed

(36:30):
kinetic energy. Shaw escaped by repeatedlystriking himself with a book to build enough power
to break free. He eventually regained hismemories and returned to the Hellfire Club. When
the Tarigin Clouds released into the atmosphereby the Inhumans began killing mutants, Shaw
allied with Magneto. However, his involvementwith the genetic modification and mutant

(36:52):
creating drug called Mother Vine Backfire. Aftertaking the drug, he gained the ability to absorb
ambient kinetic energy, but the unstablemutation began damaging his cells from within.
Emma Frost covertly had his drink poisoned with aparalytic that prevented him from releasing this
energy, causing the overload to kill him. Shaw waslater resurrected on the mutant island of Krakowa

(37:15):
and welcomed as part of the New Nation. You canlearn more about Krakowa in its duel against Danny
the Street. Shaw earned a seat on the Quiet Councilas the Black King of the Hellfire Trading Company,
which was responsible for the globaldistribution of Krakowa medicines. Determined
to regain influence, he attempted to install hisresurrected son, Shinobi as the Red King, but Emma

(37:38):
Frost countered him by appointing Kitty Pryde inthat role. Shaw orchestrated Kitty's murder,
believing she could not be resurrected, but shereturned after several attempts. When Emma Frost
learned the truth by reading the memories ofKitty's pet dragon, Lockheed, she and Kate
brutally punished Shaw, leaving him temporarilycrippled. Shaw eventually recovered, but his

(37:59):
power struggles with Krakowa continued until itseventual downfall. And that's his backstory.
Powers-wise, Sebastian Shaw, the Black King, is amutant with the ability to absorb kinetic and
thermal energy, converting it into superhumanstrength, speed, stamina, and healing ability.
Even bladed attacks against him result in onlysuperficial scratches because of his ability to

(38:23):
sap the blade of all its thrusting and cuttingenergy. He is a formidable hand-to-hand
combatant, a cunning strategist, anti-giftedengineer and economist. His weakness is that his
absorption ability does have a limit, and if heoverloads on energy, he can pass out if he does not
exert it. And that's Sebastian Shaw. Okay, so bothof these guys have healing factors and strength,

(38:46):
yeah. Although Sebastian Shaw's strength has todevelop, but he can absorb kinetic energy, which
is something that Vandal Savage doesn't have. Idon't know how Vandal Savage is gonna hurt him
because punching Shaw is like punching someone inyour dreams, right? Like you punch him as hard as
you can and it's just, it's like hitting goodmattress. Well, this should be a fun speculation.
No wonder we haven't used this character yet. Goodluck. In a world where fantasies collide and

(39:14):
heroes clash, one podcast network rises above therest. Prepare yourself for the ultimate
showdowns in comic books, video games, movies,and anime. The Dynamite Podcast Network presents
Console Combat, where video game legends brawlevery Monday, Dynamic Duel, where comic book
titans smash every Tuesday, Max Destruction,where TV and action heroes battle every

(39:38):
Wednesday, and Sendro World, where animechampions clash every Thursday. Join us as we
speculate on the matches and armed with the powerof mathematical simulations, discover who will
emerge victorious. Visit dynamicpodcast.comwhere we settle the debate and settle the score.

(39:59):
Superhero fans, this is it. Black Friday and CyberMonday week are here, and OldGlory.com is the
place to gear up before the holidays. They've gotthousands of official Marvel and DC t-shirts,
hoodies, and gifts ready to ship the same day so youcan find something for every hero on your list, or
yourself. This week you get 15% off everything inthe shop when you use the promo code Duel at

(40:23):
checkout. That's right, D-U-E-L as the promo codefor the best deal of the year. Shop now before
heroes and villains alike sell out atOldGlory.com. Now that we've got their histories
and abilities out of the way, let's speculate onhow one of the 1,000 simulated matches will go. The
winner is determined by simulations, not thespeculation, but it's fun to imagine how this

(40:47):
fight could play out. AJ9K, what are the rules ofour speculation? Well, I should say there are no
rules other than the characters have no priorknowledge of the other going into the fight. All
they are aware of starting out is that the othercharacter is a threat that needs to be eliminated.
For the speculation, the contestants will beginapproximately 50 meters apart in a nondescript

(41:09):
environment that will have no bearing on the matchitself, as no environmental statistics are
considered in my simulations. The contestantsmust earn victory on their own merit. Alright then
let's get into it. Vandal Savage and SebastianShaw meet on the battlefield. Who goes first? I'm
going to say that Sebastian Shaw goes first bykneeling down and punching the ground with his

(41:30):
fists as hard as he can in order to build up hiskinetic energy reserve. And since he also spends
most of his mornings punching walls or he'll havehis security team beat the shit out of him, we'll
see he starts this match off at around 10% peakpower. Okay. So right off the bat he's at least as

(41:50):
strong as, you know, a gorilla who can lift like,what, like two tons? Well, I'm going to say that
Savage, you know, he sees Shaw punching the groundand just from his historical experience, deduces
Shaw's ability of kinetic energy storage.Alright. Okay. And that's when he's going to twist
a jewel knob that's atop his walking cane. Andthat's going to cause it to emit a blinding flash,

(42:18):
which is going to blind Shaw. And when he's doneblinking away the spots from his eyes, Savage is
already behind him. And Savage is going to taserShaw in the back of the neck with the tip of his cane,
just overloading him with millions of volts ofelectrical energy. Millions of volts? Yeah, like
way too much for him to absorb. No, no, he's justgoing to get a little bit of a boost from the

(42:43):
electricity, but he also absorbs thermal energyin addition to kinetic. So while he's getting
electrocuted, he's slowly going to get strongerand stronger. And he's going to stop convulsing
and just start laughing. He's going to grab VendilSavage's little stick in his hand. And then he's
just going to break it in half and proceed to giveSavage a severe caning, just beating him like he

(43:06):
owes him money. Okay. But as As soon as Shah grabsVandal's cane, Vandal's gonna unsheathe a saber
from the handle. So Shah's just broken a sheathessentially. And while he attempts to beat Vandal
with that, Vandal is gonna calmly deflect all ofhis attacks, slicing the cane halves up in Shah's
hands, and he'll finish off by slitting his throatas well. Well, I mean, like I said, the blade would

(43:31):
only leave a superficial scratch across Shah'sneck because his skin would sap the saber of all of
its kinetic energy as it made contact. So again,all you're doing is powering up Shah. At this
point, he's probably like at 25% power because ofthe electrical attack. So he's just gonna stomp
toward Vandal Savage, you know, keeping hisopponent on the back foot. He's gonna straight up

(43:53):
smack the sword out of his hand and then grab VandalSavage, lift him up in the air and just power bomb
him onto the ground right onto his head, whichcauses Vandal Savage's neck to break. I mean,
Savage, his bones are pretty thick and durable.Like, I don't think it would paralyze him or
anything, plus he'd heal right away. And to givehim the chance to do so as he's on the ground, he's

(44:16):
going to pull out a pen that he kept in his pocket.And that's a sonic emitter. So while Shah is
covering his ears with his hands like, oh no, myfreaking ears. That's when Savage is gonna
straight up shove that pen up Shah's nose andunleash the acid ink within it, just dissolving
Shah's head from the inside. What the fuck? Howmany gadgets does Vandal Savage have? He's like

(44:39):
fucking James Bond or something? What's going onhere? Yeah, he's like the ultimate James Bond in a
way. Stop making shit up. Dude, I'm not. Heliterally invents all kinds of stuff. He invented
the knife. He invented fire. Like he's alwaysprepared with some kind of gadget. Whatever.
Okay, the sonic pen would hurt Shah's ears, yes,but the sonic vibrations from it once again would

(45:05):
power him up. So when Vandal Savage goes to stab himup the nose with the pen, Shah just grabs him by the
wrist and straight up rips his whole damn arm off.Okay, I mean, that's fine. Savage has probably
lost that same arm several times throughout hislife. He'll just regrow another one later. But I
will say that some of that acid from the pen didmanage to land on Shah's chest and it's slowly

(45:31):
eating its way through it. So Shah's freaking out.And while he is, Savage is going to remove his belt
and Garrett, Shah from behind with it, stranglinghim to death with his one arm. For some reason, when
you said Savage removed his belt, I thought youwere going to say he's going to give Shah an ass
whooping. That would have been awkward. Anyway,Shah can't absorb acid. It would hurt him and he can

(45:57):
also be suffocated. But like I'm saying, he's sostrong by this point as Savage is trying to
strangle him, Shah would just grab the belt aroundhis neck and rip it in half. And then he takes that
belt and does give Vandal Savage an ass whoopingbefore straight up ripping his spine out of his
body. Match over. But dude, how is he going to dothat with the acid still eating at his chest? Like

(46:18):
by this point, his organs are exposed. That wasreally strong acid. It was just a little splash
that got on him of acid. He'll be fine. I mean, did Ialso mention that Savage's saber blade from his
cane was laced with poison? Because it was. So thatpoison entered the superficial cut in his neck and
has been slowly sapping away Shah's strength thiswhole time. So after Shah rips the belt, he just

(46:43):
pukes and dies. Well, yeah, poison changesthings. I'm going to say that, you know, Savage's
poison barely got in Shah's system. It didn'treally affect him in enough time to prevent Vandal
Savage's ass whooping and getting his spineripped out. There you go. OK, so it was just a little
poison that affected him a little bit of acid.Yeah. Come on. Shah's just too strong. I don't know

(47:06):
what to tell you. But we could go ahead and leave thematch there. Either Sebastian Shah gets poisoned
early in the match by a poison laced blade andtherefore succumbs to it and dies. Or the poison
doesn't affect him that much because he doesn'tget enough in his system and he rips Vandal
Savage's spine from his body. Let's go ahead andinput the character stats from the simulations

(47:27):
and find out which of these scenarios is morelikely to happen when we come back with a winner.
AJ9K, hit it. Inputting data, runningcalculations, processing results, simulations
complete. I actually really like this matchup.Like I was intrigued by it when it was pitched, but
having gone through it, Vandal Savage had moregoing for him than I thought he would against

(47:50):
Sebastian Shah. Yeah, I thought this was going tobe an easy win for Sebastian Shah, considering
that he's actually super powered. Well, I mean,Vandal Savage is actually super powered too, but
not to the full potential that Sebastian Shah canreach. So I was going in this fairly confident and
then just statistically Vandal Savage is prettyimpressive. So I'm less confident now. We'll say

(48:11):
that. I think this will be a closer match than I everwanted it to be. Well, I mean, from a stat
perspective, Sebastian Shah has the capabilityof being much more of a physical powerhouse than
Vandal Savage. When it came to stats like speed,durability, strength and even damage, the edge
went to Shaw. But on the other side of the spectrum,we found that Vandal Savage was a better fighter.

(48:35):
He had slightly more range just because of thegadgets he carries. He's smarter. He's more
perceptive since he has enhanced senses andoverall just a bit more versatile. I don't think he
should come into this match with any gadgets. I wasnever told that he would have gadgets. Tell that to
all of the superheroes he goes up against who don'texpect him to pull out gadgets. I have receipts,

(48:57):
sir. I have receipts. All right, whatever. Soconsidering all of the stats that were run, who do
you think is going to come out on top? I still thinkit's going to be Sebastian Shah, but I think it's
going to be really close, basically a coin toss.And really, this should have been a curb stop on
behalf of Sebastian Shah, but it's going to end upbeing probably a coin toss. Although, you know

(49:17):
what? Instagram disagrees with me. So maybepeople out there know something I don't because
68% of our poll takers on Instagram sided withVandal Savage over Sebastian Shah. I think Vandal
Savage just has a cooler look to him. Like heactually pulls off that Victorian era look,
whereas Sebastian Shah does not. What are youtalking about? You don't have any clue what you're

(49:38):
talking about. The fact that Vandal Savage won thepoll does scare me, though, because I would have
thought that Sebastian Shah would have won thepopularity contest, at least considering that he
was played by Kevin Bacon in one of the greatestsexman films that has been made. Well, let's find
out who won the match. AJ9K, the results, please.Here you are, sir. The winner of the matchup

(49:59):
between Vandal Savage and Sebastian Shah isVandal Savage, baby. What? He won 593 of the 1000
simulated matches or 59.3% of the time compared toSebastian Shah who only won 40.7%. So that wasn't

(50:20):
even a coin toss. No, Vandal Savage won handedly,which would have been surprising to me prior to us
doing the stats. And I don't even think I mentionedwe accounted for Sebastian Shah being at his
strongest in these stats. The power level he's notalways at. I was supposed to win this entire month
of November. And were you? Yeah, I was supposed to.Well, it looks like that didn't happen. Did it?

(50:44):
Universe owes me for not coming through on this forsure. Universe doesn't owe you shit. You know
what? I'm thankful for this Thanksgiving. Havingan awesome twin brother. What? Yeah. No. I'm
thankful for this win in particular because DC hasbeen on a losing streak and I was getting scared.
Well, I'll be thankful that at least you werescared at some point this month. Sure, I'll let you

(51:05):
have it. But that does it for this duel. A.G. andN.K. help close this out. In our next episode, we

(51:41):
are doing a team duel between the powerhouse teamsof the new gods against the Eternals. Look forward
to that next week. That does it for this episode. Wewant to give a big thanks to our executive
producers, John Staroski, Zachary Hepburn,Destin Belcom, Nathaniel Wagner, Levi Yatyn,
Austin Wazalowski, A.J. Dunkerly, Nick Obonto,Scott Camacho, Gil Camacho, Adam Spees, Dean

(52:03):
Moleski, Devin Davis, Joseph Kirsting and PaulGraves for helping make this podcast possible.
We'll talk to you guys next week. Up, up and away.True believers. The Amalgam version of these two 540 00:52:15,440 --> characters would be named Sandal Bandage and they would repair shoes as their day job.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Burden

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Vandal Savage vs Sebastian Shaw

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Burden

All Episodes

Vandal Savage vs Sebastian Shaw

Stuff You Should Know