Watchmen vs Thunderbolts

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Join our community at https://patreon.com/dynamicduel
• 0:00:00 - Introduction 
• 0:03:49 - No-Prize Time 
• 0:08:16 - Question of the Week 
• 0:09:00 - Watchmen vs Thunderbolts intro 
• 0:12:57 - Watchmen history and roster 
• 0:24:51 - Thunderbolts history and roster 
• 0:35:12 - Fight speculation 
• 0:48:08 - Duel results 
• 0:53:04 - Sign off 
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Executive producers: John Starosky, Zachary Hepburn, Dustyn Balcom, Miggy Matanguihan, Brandon Estergard, Nathaniel Wagner, Levi Yeaton, Austin Wesolowski, AJ Dunkerley, Nic Abanto, Scott Camacho, Gil Camacho, Adam Speas, Dean Maleski, Devin Davis, Joseph Kersting, Josh Liner, Mike Williams, and Oscar Galvez
"Take a Chance" "Clash Defiant" "Blip Stream" "Nowhere Land" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com), Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
#Watchmen #Thunderbolts #MarvelVsDC


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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
This is a DynaMic Network Podcast. Hi, welcome tothe DynaMic Duel Podcast, a weekly show where we

(00:28):
review superhero films and debate thesuperiority between Marvel and DC by comparing
their characters in stat-based battlesimulations. I'm Johnny DC. And I'm his twin
brother, Marvelous Joe. And in lead up to ourreview of the Marvel film Thunderbolts, we are
doing a team duel where we pit that team againstDC's Watchmen. Yeah, we're not pitting the

(00:52):
traditional Thunderbolts team against theWatchmen, like the original classics. It's going
to be more in line with the film version of theThunderbolts, which is also in line with the most
recent roster in the comics. Basically the ideahere is that we have a bunch of street level heroes
and one super powerful character on the team toback them up. Yeah, Dr. Manhattan in the century,

(01:14):
respectively. Exactly. We'll be raking down eachteam's histories and the rosters we'll be using
later on in this episode. There's no comic bookmovie news this week, but as always, we list our
segment times in our episode description, so feelfree to check out the show notes if you want to skip
ahead to a particular topic. Our artificiallyintelligent duel simulator, AJ9K, has a quick

(01:35):
message for our listeners, so listen up. Why hellothere. Do you want even more from this podcast?
Then become a part of the dynamic duel community onPatreon where you can choose from three tiers. The
Dynamic 2.0 tier gives you access to our Discordchat server, the Fantastic Four tier gives you two
bonus episodes each month, and the X-Force tiermakes you an executive producer of this show.

(01:58):
Lastly, the Dynamite Podcast Network tier letsyou create your own podcast using this Monte Carlo
simulator. Johnny and Joe will help you developyour show, provide graphic support and
consultation, and get you simulation results.Pitch the twins your ideas via email at
dynamicduelpodcast at gmail.com. Check it out atpatreon.com slash dynamicduel. Pip pip cheerio.

(02:21):
Thanks AJ9K and thanks to everyone who supportsthe podcast, including executive producer Nick
Abonto who had a birthday recently. Happybirthday man, if I could give you one gift from
Marvel, it would be the power of the century, butwithout the void persona attached to it. Okay, and
I'll do you one better. I will give you the power ofDr. Manhattan. Yeah, blue balls and all. Yeah,

(02:43):
have fun with those. Happy birthday. Guys, be sureto tune into the other shows in the Dynamite
Podcast Network this week, including the consoleCombat Podcast, where hosts John and Dean
simulate battles between popular video gamecharacters. In yesterday's episode, they
speculated on who would win in a fight betweenShe-Hulk from Ultimate Marvel versus Capcom 3
versus The Mask. Over on the Max DestructionPodcast, hosts Scotty and Gilly pit their

(03:08):
favorite action heroes from film and televisionagainst each other. They are on a brief season
break currently, so now is the perfect time to getcaught up with their past episodes. And on the
Senjoh World Podcast hosts Zachary Hepburnspeculates on fights between fan favorite anime
and manga characters. On Thursday, Zach is goingto reveal who would win between Sunraku from

(03:28):
Shangri-La Frontier versus Kirito from Sword ArtOnline. We said that was going to be last week's
episode, but Zach had to undergo surgery lastweek, so he was able to release the episode and
we're wishing him a speedy recovery. Visitdynamicpodcasts.com or click the link in our show
notes to listen to all the shows in the DynamitePodcast Network. But with that out of the way,

(03:50):
quick to the No Prize! A No Prize is an award thatMarvel used to give out to fans. Our version, the
Dynamic duel No Prize, is a digital award we post onInstagram for the person that we feel gave the best
answer to our question of the week. Last week weasked you guys, what did you think of the Shalabal
Silver Surfer from the Fantastic Four First Stepsofficial trailer? And we got three answers, so

(04:13):
let's go over our two honorable mentions and the NoPrize winner. Our first honorable mention goes to
Kat Stevenson, who said, Hi guys, this is KatStevenson. I think that the Shalabal in the
Fantastic Four First Steps trailer, while it was abold choice, I think will ultimately be positive.
I think it'll keep the same people who have beenconsistently shitting on James Gunn's Superman

(04:37):
away from the film and will help maintain positiveaudience reactions to the film. Thanks guys.
Yeah, I'm not quite sure what he was saying here inregards to the Superman film thing, but basically
his answer was it's a bold choice cotton. Let's seehow the strategy pays off for them. What I took this
to mean was that so many people are going to bedistracted by the Silver Surfer that's going to be

(05:03):
a positive for DC because they're not going to careif anything's wrong with that film because
they're just going to be so negatively focused onFantastic Four and Silver Surfer. No he said it's
going to be a positive outcome. Yeah, for DC. Oh.Yeah, I don't think that's what he meant. Well,
that's what I heard. Good answer Kat, our nexthonorable mention goes to Gavin Troyer, who said,

(05:25):
I don't care if Silver Surfer has boobs or a penis. Idon't even care about bad CGI anymore.
Truthfully, I don't really care about theFantastic Four or Silver Surfer that much, but as
long as the movie is good, it's good. And it doesn'treally matter what the gender or how good the CGI

(05:46):
is. Hopefully the movie is fantastic and that'sall it really needs. All the criteria it needs is to
be fantastic. OK, but what if the Silver Surfer hadboobs and a penis? Well, like Gavin said, I don't
think it would matter if the movie was good. If themovie is good, then, you know, the sex of the Silver

(06:07):
Surfer is probably going to be the last thing onanyone's minds. At the end of the day, I think
people care more about the overall quality thanany specific, you know, genitalia detail. I don't
know about that. I think I would notice silvergenitalia. Great answer, Gavin. But the winner of
this week's No Prize is Travis Herndon, who said.What's up, dynamic do's Travis here. So I'm fine

(06:32):
with a female Silver Surfer. I mean, they'vealready established that this is an alternate
universe compared to the main MCU universe. Andusually when it comes to multiverses types,
situations is always the whole like, oh, hey, thischaracter might be gender-banned or this
character might be race-wild. I mean, weintroduced the multiverse into your story is kind

(06:55):
of expected. That's a great point made by Travis.And I think why this answer got the No Prize win for
this being the multiversal saga as an audience,we've gotten very little actual multiversal
content. And to quote the vision, what is themultiverse, if not interesting and bold casting
choices, persevering? But what? I don't rememberhim saying that. I'm paraphrasing. Oh, OK. Well, I

(07:21):
mean, Marvel does have a precedence forgender-bending characters and the multiverse.
If you take a look at Captain Carter or Loki or evenLady Deadpool, we've seen gender-bent versions
of heroes we know and love. And since this is amultiversal character, I could see how people

(07:42):
could be a little bit more forgiving. That beingsaid, I still stand by what I said last week in that
sense. Shalabal is really the only seemingmultiversal component of the Fantastic Four
first steps film other than the time period. Itwould have been nice if Marvel chose to go with the
Frankie Ray Nova Herald of Galactus instead.Yeah, 100 percent. I agree with that. Well,

(08:05):
congrats to Travis Herndon for winning thisweek's No Prize. If you, the listener, want a shot
at winning your own No Prize, stay tuned untillater on this episode when we will be asking
another question of the week. And now that that'sdone onto the question of the week. Since this
episode is a team duel between Watchmen andThunderbolts and since Thunderbolts is coming

(08:28):
out this week, here's our question. For those ofyou who have seen both films, which was better?
2009's Watchmen or Thunderbolts and why? Recordyour answer at dynamicduel.com by clicking on the
red microphone button in the bottom right handcorner of the screen, which will prompt you to
leave us a voicemail. Your message could be up to 30seconds long. And don't forget to leave your name

(08:51):
in case we include you on the podcast. We'll pickour favorite answer and award that person a
dynamic duel No Prize that will post to Instagram.Be sure to answer before May 3rd. DC High Volume,
Batman. The Dark Knight's definitive DC comicstories adapted directly for audio for the very

(09:16):
first time. Fear. I have to make them afraid. He'sgot a motorcycle. Get after him or have you shot?
You mean blow up the building? From this moment on,none of you are safe. New episodes every
Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Butnow let's go ahead and move on to the main event of

(09:40):
this episode, a team duel where we find out who willwin between DC's Watchmen and Marvel's
Thunderbolts. OK, Watchmen versusThunderbolts, as we mentioned earlier on in this

(10:08):
episode, this is really going to be a team of streetlevel heroes and one really superpowered
character backing them up. As you may know, withthe characters of Watchmen, none of them have
superpowers except for Dr. Manhattan, since thisis a world where people are essentially dressing
up to play superhero rather than actually being asuperhero. Yeah. And with Thunderbolts, if you

(10:34):
watch the marketing for the upcoming film, YelenaBelova describes the team as a bunch of people who
punch and shoot stuff. But then there's also theSentry, who is on par with Superman, if not
stronger. I'm really excited for this matchup. Inever actually thought I would get to do Watchmen
as a team duel. Watchmen is one of my favorite DCstories and highly praised as the greatest

(10:57):
graphic novel of all time. So I'm super pumped forthis matchup. Well, I think the original arc of the
Thunderbolts has also been called the greatestgraphic novel of all time. Shut the hell up by
somebody. Me, I mean, like at least I just said itright now. So technically, yeah, it has been
called that. All right, one person. But to explainthe methodology behind our duels, let's go to our

(11:20):
sentient duel simulator, Alfred Jarvis, 9000.Agent 9K tell our listeners how you go about
determining a winner in our team duel matchups.Yes, of course, sir. The way I determine a winner
between the two teams is by running 1000 MonteCarlo simulations between every character on
each team using their statistics. A Monte Carlosimulation is a probabilistic model used to

(11:42):
determine outcomes through random sampling. Inthis case, I randomize the statistics along a
normal distribution as a way to simulate the manyvariables that can occur during battle. The stat
parameters are based on the official Marvel powergrid from which the DC characters statistics are
extrapolated. Additional stat categories areincluded such as range, damage potential,

(12:02):
versatility and perception in order to create amore detailed and accurate simulation. The
results of the 49000 simulations provide apercentage of wins for each character on both
teams. The team with the higher average win rate isdeclared the victor as they have a higher
probability to win any given battle. In anequitable pairing, neither team should win 100
percent of the matches. The comic book storieshave shown that there's even a way for Batman to

(12:27):
defeat Superman, so the confidence rate of mymethod falls in line with the precedents that have
been established in the source material. Mymathematical simulations are without
subjectivity or bias. Feats are not the soleconsideration, nor are fan votes tabulated for
determination of the winner. Thanks, AJ9K.Before we run the simulations, though, we like to

(12:47):
break down each team's histories and rostersbefore improvising a scenario on how we imagine
one of the thousands of simulations would play outbeat for beat. And it's my turn to go first with the
DC team's backstory. So let me tell you all aboutWatchmen. Now, the alternate universe of
Watchmen, the costumed adventurers firstemerged during the late 1930s and early 1940s,

(13:13):
beginning with the masked vigilante known asHooded Justice. His brutal and mysterious
activities against criminals inspired theformation of The Minutemen, a team of eight masked
crime fighters, including Silk Spectre, CaptainMetropolis, Duller Bill, Mothman, the
Silhouette, Night Owl, the comedian and HoodedJustice himself. Though publicly celebrated,

(13:38):
internal tensions plagued the group after anattempted sexual assault by the comedian on Silk
Spectre was violently stopped by Hooded Justice,the comedian was expelled from The Minutemen.
Despite their colorful appearances, the membersof The Minutemen harbored dark secrets and
personal flaws, and the team eventuallydissolved under the weight of scandal, tragedy

(13:59):
and infighting. Hooded Justice vanished withouta trace in the 1950s. His ultimate fate never
publicly confirmed. In the years that followed,new costumed adventurers emerged. Daniel
Dryberg, inspired by the original Night Owl,adopted the same moniker and operated with high
tech gadgetry. Laurie Yospeczyk, the daughter ofthe original Silk Spectre, reluctantly took up

(14:24):
her mother's mantle as the second Silk Spectre.Edward Blake, the comedian, continued operating
through government sanction, becoming ahardened and cynical figure who participated in
the Vietnam War alongside Dr. Manhattan, who wasformerly John Osterman. He emerged as the first
being with true superhuman powers after ascientific accident disintegrated and

(14:47):
reconstituted him as a blue-skinned being whoperceived all of times simultaneously. Adrian
Veit, known as Ozzy Mendeus and renowned as thesmartest man alive, rose to prominence with an
image of altruism and efficiency, only to retireand channel his genius into business ventures. In
the early 1960s, Captain Metropolis attempted toreunite the new generation of adventurers under a

(15:12):
team called the Crime Busters. The group gatheredfor a meeting, but the effort collapsed when the
comedian mocked their idealism and exposed thefutility of costumed heroics in the shadow of
nuclear Armageddon. Following this, theindependent operations of the crime fighters
continued until in 1977, when the United Statespassed the Keen Act, outlawing un-sanctioned

(15:35):
vigilanteism. Most heroes retired. Ozzy Mendeusleft the public eye to pursue corporate power.
Dryberg reluctantly stepped down. Dr. Manhattanand the comedian continued their work as
sanctioned government operatives and onlyRorschach refused to comply. Continuing his
crusade illegally. In October 1985, Edward Blakewas thrown from the window of his apartment in New

(16:00):
York City. His death initially believed to be anisolated homicide. Through the attention of
Rorschach, who uncovered Blake's secretidentity as the comedian, convinced that someone
was targeting masked heroes. Rorschach visitedhis former colleagues, Daniel Dryberg, Laurie
Yospechik, Dr. Manhattan and Adrian Weitz.Though most of them dismissed his warnings, the

(16:23):
seeds of suspicion were planted. Blake's funeralbrought the surviving former heroes together.
Dryberg, Weitz and Manhattan attended, eachreflecting under complicated relationships
with Blake. Shortly after the funeral, Dr.Manhattan was publicly accused of causing cancer
among his former associates. Shocked by theallegations and humanity's sudden rejection,

(16:45):
Manhattan exiled himself to Mars. With thedeparture of their superhuman deterrent, the
Soviet Union seized the opportunity to invadeAfghanistan, escalating global tensions
towards nuclear war. Weitz narrowly survived anassassination attempt for their convincing
Rorschach that a conspiracy was afoot.Meanwhile, Laurie, disillusioned with her life

(17:08):
alongside the increasingly detached Dr.Manhattan, grew closer to Dryberg. The two
eventually donned their costumes once more,rekindling their sense of purpose as vigilantes
and rescuing residents from a burning apartmentbuilding. Their renewed partnership deepened
into romance. Rorschach, continuing hisinvestigation, was framed for the murder of the

(17:29):
former villain, Mollick, and was captured bypolice after a violent struggle. In prison, he was
subjugated to attacks from fellow inmates, but hedefended himself with ruthless efficiency,
culminating in a cafeteria scalding and thebrutal murder of a crime boss. Meanwhile, Dryberg
and Yospechek, believing Rorschach'sconspiracy theory had merit, executed a daring

(17:53):
plan to break him out of prison during a massiveriot. While Dryberg and Rorschach investigated
further, Dr. Manhattan transported Laurie toMars. There, Laurie pleaded with him to save
humanity from impending doom. Initiallyunmoved, Manhattan reconsidered after Laurie's
revelation that she was the daughter of thecomedian, the product of a complex and painful

(18:15):
relationship between her mother and Blake.Seeing the improbability and beauty of human
existence, Manhattan agreed to return to Earth.During investigation, led Dryberg and Rorschach
to suspect Adrian Veit as the masked killer,following a trail of evidence they traveled to
Antarctica to confront him in his private base,where Veit revealed his plan to save humanity from

(18:39):
nuclear annihilation by staging an alieninvasion that would decimate New York City. By
uniting the United States and the Soviet Unionagainst a perceived extraterrestrial threat,
you believed he could avert global war. Veitadmitted to orchestrating the cancer scare to
drive Dr. Manhattan away, staging the attempt onhis own life to eliminate suspicion, murdering

(19:02):
Blake when he uncovered the plot and framingRorschach to impede his investigation. As
Dryberg and Rorschach reeled from therevelation, Veit disclosed that his plan had
already been enacted. In New York, millions laydead amid the wreckage caused by the appearance of
the genetically engineered psychic creature, acolossal sized squid that was teleported into the

(19:24):
city. News reports confirmed that the UnitedStates and Soviet Union had entered talks to unite
against the supposed alien menace. Manhattan andLorry arrived on Earth and traveled to
Antarctica, confronting Veit. Althoughappalled by the slaughter, the heroes realized
that exposing the truth would only reignite thethreat of nuclear war. All except Rorschach

(19:47):
agreed to keep silence. Rorschach refused tocompromise. As he departed into the frozen
wasteland to reveal the truth, he encountered Dr.Manhattan and he demanded to be killed rather than
be silenced by any other means. Without a word,Manhattan complied, disintegrating Rorschach.
Following the confrontation, Dryberg and Lorryadopted new identities, leaving behind their

(20:11):
former lives. Meanwhile, back in New York, theright wing newspaper New Frontiersman received
Rorschach's journal detailing hisinvestigation and suspicions into Adrian, its
contents poised to expose the entire truth,depending on the editor's decision. Dr.
Manhattan, disillusioned by humanities and lesscycles, left Earth to explore new galaxies.

(20:34):
Adrian Veit, victorious, yet uncertain, was leftto wonder about the consequences of his actions.
Years after the devastation in New York City, theworld uncovered the truth behind Adrian Veit's
deception when Rorschach's journal was finallypublished. Rather than uniting humanity
indefinitely, the revelation reigniteddistrust and chaos among the nations. In

(20:56):
desperation, Veit sought to locate Dr.Manhattan, believing only he could repair the
world he had broken. Tracking residuel quantumtraces across dimensions, Veit crossed into a
parallel Earth where superheroes had long shapedhistory differently. There, he manipulated a
successor to Rorschach, Reginald Long,convincing him to assist in the search. Edward

(21:20):
Blake, the comedian whose death Veit had onceorchestrated, was pulled from the moment of his
murder and brought into this new world by Dr.Manhattan's intervention. Now alive again,
Blake hunted Veit for revenge, while alsobecoming entangled in violent conflicts between
metahuman factions. Dr. Manhattan, observingthis world, had been subtly reshaping its

(21:43):
history. Intrigued by the resilience of itsgreatest hero, Superman, Manhattan had
experimented with removing key figures andaltering pivotal moments, shifting the
emergence of heroes and the world's timeline.Yet, despite his manipulations, Manhattan found
himself unable to see beyond a loomingconfrontation with Superman, uncertain whether

(22:05):
he would destroy this reality or be destroyed byit. Adrian Veit, recognizing the instability Dr.
Manhattan's presence created, attempted oncemore to engineer peace by igniting a global
metahuman arms race and framing Superman as athreat. His plans ultimately unraveled as the
truth surfaced aided by heroes from this new earthwho resisted further deception. In the final

(22:30):
confrontation, Superman's unwavering hopeinspired Dr. Manhattan to abandon his cold
detachment. Rather than destroy or dominate theworld, Manhattan restored what he had broken,
returning lost heroes to existence and ensuringthe survival of those he had once endangered. Veit
was returned to his own world, exposed for hiscrimes and imprisoned, accepting that he had no

(22:54):
place in this world. Manhattan entrusted hispower to a child he had raised, a boy he named Clark,
whom he gave to Daniel Dryberg and Laura Yospechikto raise before Manhattan vanished from
existence. Clark grew up to become the superheroknown as the Watchman. And that's the full history
of the Watchman characters. Now, for my sevenmember Watchman roster, I am, of course, going

(23:19):
with the six main characters of the Watchmanstory, including Rorschach, Silk Spectre and the
Comedian, none of whom who have superhumanpowers, but are skilled fighters and possess
various crime fighting tools and weapons. OzzyMandius, also included on this team, possesses
near superhuman abilities, as he is the mostintelligent and most physically capable human

(23:41):
man in existence. Dr. Manhattan, as my sixthmember, is the powerhouse of the team, possessing
nine missions and omnipotence, whom you'velearned more about in our Dr. Manhattan versus
Molecule Man episode. For my seventh and finalmember, I decided to go with Hooded Justice, as he
was the very first superhero in Watchman Comicsand is an accomplished fighter and stealth

(24:06):
expert. But who watches the Watchman? Your mom?Yeah, I think she's seen that movie. You're right.
You're right. I got to say that the subsequentrebirth DC universe aspects of these characters
history didn't really hold a candle to theoriginal Watchman story. No, and I don't think it
really holds a candle to what they did with theWatchman television series. In my opinion, that

(24:29):
is the superior sequel to the Watchman story,particularly when it comes to also the history of
certain characters like Hooded Justice. Butthat's not comics canon. Yeah, if DC was smart,
they would actually serialize the Watchmantelevision show from HBO, put it into a comic book
format and then make it an official sequel. I mightbe too late for that, but it's fine. Well, at least

(24:52):
Marvel has the synergy going with this new teamthat's going to be in the Thunderbolts movie. But
let me take you back to the beginning of the comicbook history. The Thunderbolts were founded
after a battle with Onslaught left the worldwithout the Avengers or Fantastic Four. Seizing
the opportunity, Baron Zemo assembled a new teamof villains from the Masters of Evil group now
posing as heroes. Vidal, Fixer, Goliath,Moonstone and Screaming Mimi, who adopted the new

(25:17):
identities of Mach 1, Techno, Atlas, Moonstoneand Songbird. You can learn more about the Masters
of Evil in their team duel against the Legion ofDoom. The Thunderbolts debuted to public
acclaim, even inspiring young heroine Jolt, whojoined the team unaware of their deception. After
the Avengers and the Fantastic Four returned,Zemo accelerated his plans, publicly exposing

(25:39):
the Thunderbolts true identities to destroytheir chances at redemption and solidify their
loyalty to him. Zemo attempted to enslave theglobal population with a mind control device, but
the team, having genuinely embraced heroism,turned against him, freeing the mind controlled
populace. Zemo fled while the remainingThunderbolts, now fugitives, struggled to earn

(25:59):
back the trust they had betrayed. Better anAvenger Hawkeye than joined and led the team,
boosting their credibility. He convinced Mach 1to serve jail time for past crimes, solidifying
the team's commitment to change. Under Hawkeye,the Thunderbolts defeated the new Masters of
Evil, gained the headquarters, and earnedgovernment support. After exposing Henry

(26:20):
Guyridge's anti-superhuman conspiracy, theywere officially pardoned. Later, during a battle
with Graviton, several Thunderbolts, includingFixer, Jolt and Songbird, were hurled to counter
Earth, which was a parallel world created byFranklin Richards, the son of Mr. Fantastic and
Invisible Woman. There, they worked with BaronZemo to stabilize the devastated planet.

(26:41):
Meanwhile, Hawkeye formed a second Thunderboltsteam to combat Crimson Cowell's forces.
Meanwhile, Hawkeye formed a second Thunderboltsteam to combat Crimson Cowell's forces. After
various battles in the return of the original teamfrom counter Earth, the Thunderbolts merged into
one group. Zemo seized control, convincing somemembers to follow his vision of saving the world

(27:01):
through domination. His Thunderbolts clashedwith the Avengers and were ultimately defeated,
fracturing the team. Original members Mock Four,Songbird and Atlas later revived the
Thunderbolts with new recruits like Joystick,Rizzard, Speed Demon and Radioactive Man. This
era saw them battle against Hydra and the PurpleMan, who tried to enslave New York. Zemo secretly

(27:23):
manipulated a Formerly the Green Goblin, soonassumed leadership of the new Thunderbolts

(27:57):
lineup. You can learn more about him in his duelagainst the Joker. Characters like Songbird,
Moonstone, Bullseye, Venom, Penance, andSwordsman operated as a sanctioned strike team
capturing unregistered heroes. Despite publicsuccess, internal betrayal and corruption
riddled the team. Osborn manipulated eventsduring the Skrull invasion positioning himself

(28:18):
as the national hero known as Iron Patriot. UnderOsborn, the Thunderbolts became a covert
assassination squad known as the Dark Avengers.New members included White Widow, Yelena Baloba,
who was actually Natasha Romanoff in disguise,Ant-Man, and Ghost. Missions ranged from
targeting Deadpool to seizing weapons for MaskedGuard during Osborn's campaign against the realm

(28:39):
after it manifested on Earth. After Osborn'sfall, Luke Cage took over the Thunderbolts
program. The team included Songbird, Mach 5,Ghost, Moonstone, Juggernaut, Crossbones,
Hyperion, and Manthing. Operating from the Raftprison, this version aimed at rehabilitating
villains, though tensions and betrayalsremained. Crossbones and Hyperion were expelled

(29:00):
after betraying the team, and Satan had joined todefend against magical threats. The team was
later lost in time, battling through World War II,Camelot, and a dystopian future before returning
to the present and then disbanding. Later,General Thaddeus, Thunderbolt Ross, now Red
Hulk, formed his own Thunderbolt strike team withDeadpool, Electra, Agent Venom, Punisher, and

(29:23):
eventually Ghost Rider. Operating outsidegovernment control, they confronted threats
like Madman, Gamma-irradiated Crimson Dynamos,and even travel to Hell. The team fractured after a
brutal internal conflict between Punisher andRed Hulk, which was partly orchestrated by the
villain known as the Leader. James Bucky Barnes,aka the Winter Soldier, assembled a new

(29:44):
Thunderbolt squad, including original membersFixer, Atlas, Moonstone, and Mach 10. The mission
was to prevent Shield from abusing the sentientcosmic cube, Cobyc. During this time, they
battled alien invaders, the squadron Supreme,and a secretly fascist Captain America. Songbird
briefly reunited with the team before itdisbanded, following attacks by Baron Zemo and

(30:05):
the Masters of Evil. Subsequently, Zemoorganized a Thunderbolt's team during his
vendetta against the Punisher. His rosterincluded Ghost, Moonstone, Radioactive Man,
Fixer, and Jigsaw. Their efforts to trap and killFrank Castle failed after Ghost turned against
Zemo. The Kingpin, as Mayor of New York laterformed his own Thunderbolt's task force led by

(30:27):
Taskmaster to fight the evil deity Null'sinvasion of the city. After being hunted by Null's
shadowy forces, the team made their way to theRavencroft Institute, where they teamed with
Norman Osborn to use the Sentry against Null'ssymbiote base. After Null's eventual defeat,
which you can learn more about in his duel againstDC's White Lantern, Kingpin continued using the

(30:48):
Thunderbolts, now led by a US agent to crack down onVigilantism. Following Fisk's downfall as
Mayor, the newly elected Luke Cage restructuredthe Thunderbolts and placed Hawkeye in charge
with a new lineup featuring Photon, Miss America,and Power Man. This team successfully defended
New York from several threats, but wasshort-lived. Meanwhile, the Winter Soldier and

(31:10):
former Shield agent Contessa Valentina Allegrade Fontaine assembled a separate Thunderbolts
team to dismantle Red Skull's global operations.Red Guardian, White Widow, Black Widow, Sharon
Carter, Shang Chi, and US agent joined the cause.They succeeded in defeating the Red Skull after a
battle in Laferia, involving Dr. Doom. And that'sthe Thunderbolts backstory. For this team duel's

(31:33):
7-person roster, I'm going with mostly membersfrom the most recent iteration of the comic book
team, which largely coincides with the roster inthe Thunderbolts movie, which comes out this
week. Yes, it did destroy me that we're notincluding any members of the original
Thunderbolts team here, including people likeBaron Zemo, Mach 1, Songbird, Atlas, Moonstone,
and Techno. No one is more upset by this than me,because I think the original Thunderbolts

(31:58):
storyline up through Hawkeye's leadership of thegroup is just classic Marvel storytelling that no
other iteration of the team has been able to match.But as we said earlier, when we realized that the
film's Thunderbolts roster could potentiallymake for a good duel against the Watchmen, we just
saw an opportunity that we couldn't pass up. Sorepresenting the Thunderbolts are the Winter
Soldier, who has led two separate versions of theteam, Taskmaster, who served on three iterations

(32:24):
and even led the team once, Ghost, a three-timeThunderbolts member, US Agent, who has served on
the Thunderbolts twice and led once, White Widow,who was involved in two incarnations of the team,
Red Guardian, who was a more recent recruit, andfinally, the Sentry, who was never actually a
Thunderbolts member but who was a part of NormanOsborn's Dark Avengers, which was a team that spun

(32:47):
out of the Thunderbolts. Each of these charactershas had their own duel episode for listeners to
learn more about them, except for Ghost and RedGuardian. Ghost was a brilliant data engineer who
developed quantum computing chips that couldphase out of existence to bypass the physical
limitations of the real world, such asoverheating. When he was betrayed by the company
he worked for, he integrated the technology into asuit that could render him both invisible and

(33:12):
intangible. After killing his company'sexecutives, he became a corporate saboteur for
hire. He clashed with Iron Man on multipleoccasions before being drafted into the
Thunderbolts. Ghost's suit also renders himcompletely silent, able to zap others or disrupt
electronics with an electric touch, able tointerface with technology, and able to float. Of

(33:33):
course, the comic version is very different thanthe MCU's version, who is Ava Star, the daughter of
the Ant-Man villain Egghead. Now Red Guardian'sreal name is Alexi Shostakov, whom I discussed
briefly in our Black Canary vs Black Widow Duelepisode. In the comics, he is a former Soviet pilot
and husband of Black Widow. His death was faked bythe KGB in order to turn him into a special

(33:54):
operative. Russia is answered to CaptainAmerica, called Red Guardian. He was often pit
against his American rival and later against hisex-wife, when she defected from Russia and joined
the Avengers. Red Guardian later defectedhimself, and often teamed up with White Widow
against the Red Room. He wields a circular shieldand carries smaller discs on his belt that he can

(34:16):
use as throwing projectiles. That's the team. Toreiterate, my Thunderbolts roster is Winter
Soldier, Taskmaster, Ghost, US Agent, WhiteWidow, Red Guardian, and Sentry. Right, and when
we're formulating rosters with our executiveproducers, we like to pair up these characters
just to make sure that they are evenly matched, oras evenly matched as we can get. In this case, Red

(34:41):
Guardian is pairing up with Hooded Justice, WhiteWidow with Comedian, Ghost with Silk Spectre,
Taskmaster with Ozzy Mandias, Winter Soldierwith Night Owl, US Agent with Rorschach, and of
course, Sentry with Dr. Manhattan. Yeah, one ofthe main differences between the two teams is that
the watchmen are going to get served justice likelightning. Okay. And if you didn't know, that is

(35:07):
the Thunderbolts tagline. So, yeah. But now thatwe've got the team's histories and rosters out of

(36:08):
the way, we're going to speculate on how one of thethousands of simulated matches will go. The
winner is determined by simulations, not thespeculation, but it's fun to imagine how the fight
could play out. Agent I.K., what are the rules overspeculation? Well, I should say there are no
rules, other than the teams have no priorknowledge of the other going into the fight. All
they are aware of starting out is that the otherside is a threat that needs to be eliminated. For

(36:33):
the speculation, the groups will beginapproximately 50 meters apart in a nondescript
environment that will have no bearing on the matchitself, as no environmental statistics are
considered in my simulations. The teams must earnvictory on their own merit. All right, then, let's
get into it. The watchmen and the Thunderboltsmeet on the battlefield, which team goes first?

(36:54):
Actually, I'm going to say that because Dr.Manhattan already knows how this match is going to
play out and end, he's going to start by causingthis colossal labyrinth of reflective glass and
clockwork gears to rise up from the ground aroundthem. And so now the teams have to fight through
this MC Escher-esque hall of mirrors. That'spretty cool, but the Thunderbolts are going to be

(37:20):
like, what the hell is this? How is this fair? Andwhy is that blue guy's dick out? And Red Guardian is
going to be like, should I pull my dick out? Andeverybody's going to be like, that's gross. Don't
do that. But I'm going to say the century starts offby he's just going to tear through the clockwork
tower, like shattering some parts of it, meltingparts of it down. So everything is basically

(37:41):
falling apart around them. And as this glassstructure gets torn down, Winter Soldier
suddenly gets a clear shot with his sniper riflethrough a hole in the glass, and he just shoots
Comedian right in his side. Actually, though,that was just a reflection of the Comedian. So
Winter Soldier really just shoots through glassand now he's given away his location to the real

(38:02):
Comedian to return to the favor by launching agrenade from his rifle at the Winter Soldier. And
that's going to cause his good arm to get blownright off. No, no, no, no, because as the grenade
comes in, it's just going to bounce off of USagents' shield and blow up another part of the
glass tower. I think by this point, like at leasthalf of the structure is already gone. So White

(38:25):
Widow grapples up to the highest point that'sstill around. And she's going to shoot down a gas
pellet that covers Rorschach and Hooded Justicein tear gas smoke, and they're not able to breathe
and they're incapacitated. You literally chosethe two characters who both have mouth coverings
to filter their air. No, it would affect them more.I don't think it would. Oh, shit, did I fuck up?

(38:52):
Rorschach, you know, he's going to see where thetear gas came from and he's going to use his
grappling gun to zip up to where White Widow is, atwhich point he's going to attack her with a broken
shot of glass that he collected down below and he'sjust going to slice right into her neck. There's no
way. Like White Widow is going to block this slashattack and then she's going to punch Rorschach

(39:13):
right in the face and then she's going to look at hismask and she's going to be like, I think I see a bitch
and she's going to rent house, kick him right offthe glass tower where he lands on some spiky glass
debris down below and dies. What? Damn. OK, he'sprobably going to call her a whore as he falls to his
death. Right in front of Night Owl, who's like, no.And so he's going to grapple up to his Archie Owl

(39:38):
ship and use its sonic emitters to shatter theglass tower that White Widow is in. So she also
falls to her death. I said that you couldn't useArchie in the course of this battle. I'm sorry.
Why? For the same reason I said you couldn't use thebug ship in the Blue Beetle duel episode. And yet I
did. And it's not fair to do one and not the other. Sosuck it. Meanwhile, back in the match, Hooded

(40:04):
Justice has Red Guardian panties to the ground in awrestling chokehold. OK. And Red Guardian is
going to be like, why is the guy fighting me have anerection? What is with this team? And he's going to
be rescued by USA agent who curls his shield atHooded Justice's head, which is going to cause him
to lose his grip on Red Guardian. And Red Guardian,he's going to get up and he throws his shield at

(40:29):
Hooded Justice to in retaliation for thechokehold. And then, you know what? Just to get it
on the action, Taskmaster also throws his shieldat Hooded Justice. So that's three different
shields being thrown at him. Hooded Justice islooking like a pinball here and he's knocked out of
this match. No one's taken three shields to theface and living to tell about it. OK, that seemed
unnecessary. Let's say Silk Spectre and Ghost arebattling get out elsewhere in this match. But, you

(40:55):
know, even with ghosts, phasing abilities, SilkSpectre is one of the best trained fighters in the
watchmen world. So she's able to time her attacksperfectly and land several debilitating blows
against a ghost that would never happen. Ifanything, Ghost is probably just going to have
some fun, like frustrating Silk Spectre as shetries to land hit after hit after hit and just

(41:21):
getting air each time. And then Ghost is just goingto turn invisible. And Silk Spectre is wondering
where the hell he's gone. When all of a sudden Ghostappears behind her and straight up tases her in the
neck and she drops to the floor like a wet sack. SoSilk Spectre is out of this match now. For my
tasing? Yeah, she's incapacitated. OK, well,this whole time, Ozymandias has been hiding in

(41:45):
the labyrinth, just observing the thunder bolts.And through his powers of deduction, he's noticed
that the Russian technology of the wintersoldier's bionic arm doesn't match his accent. So
he assumes he is a kidnapped, brainwashedassassin. And having read about Russian

(42:05):
brainwashing techniques, Ozymandias quicklyspeaks Bucky's code words to take control of him.
And he has Bucky's snap red guardians neck killinghim. Well, you're thinking of the movies here,
like in the books, there were no code words. If Iremember correctly, it was just he was controlled
by the Russians through mind implants. But we'llsay that, yeah, sure. Somehow Ozymandias knew

(42:28):
something about Russia manipulationtechniques, at least enough to take advantage of
them. All right, cool. Yeah. So the winter soldieris his agent now, and he killed Red Guardian. But
whatever Ozymandias can do, Taskmaster cancopy. So as the US agent and ghost are like
defending themselves from Bucky's gunfire,Taskmaster is going to just run his sword through

(42:49):
Ozymandias and pailing him and killing him andthen using the same Russian techniques to bring
the winter soldier back onto the Thunderboltside. No, no, no, because Ozymandias had
observed Taskmaster as well and also deduced hisability to mimic physical abilities. So as
Taskmaster attacks him, Ozymandias justsidesteps and catches the blade of Taskmaster's

(43:13):
sword between his palms. And with one fluidmotion, Ozymandias disarms and impales
Taskmaster on his own sword. OK, so you're tellingme that Ozymandias not only still has winter
soldier under his control, but he also just tookout Taskmaster. That's right. Well, it's pretty
dang strong. I'm going to say by this point, Ghosthas floated up to Archie, Night Owl's ship, and he

(43:37):
uses his ghost tech to shut down all of Archie'selectrical systems and Night Owl has no idea
what's going on because Ghost is invisible andinaudible. So Night Owl ejects from the ship as it
falls from the sky. But Ghost manages to steer itright into Ozymandias, who's like, oh, shit, I
didn't see this coming. And then he gets fined intothe world's smartest pancake. OK, sure. Night

(44:00):
Owl, he's going to glide down from the skysilently. And he aims right for US agent doing a
gliding double kick right into his spine, causingUS agent to topple forward. And Night Owl is
quickly going to follow up by hurling a crescentblade right into US agent's neck. No, not only does
US agent block this crescent blade with hisshield, he's going to rush over and then straight

(44:25):
up shield uppercut Night Owl's head. Right off hisbody, because, you know, he has like 10 ton level
strength. What the heck? All right. Well, this iswhen US agent suddenly gets hosed down by the
comedian's flamethrower, just setting himablaze. And while US agent is dying, comedian
turns his attention to Winter Soldier, who'scoming out of Ozymandias's brainwashing, all

(44:49):
confused. And the comedian snipes him right in thehead. No, I think Winter Soldier is less confused
than you think. Like he snaps out of Ozymandias'sbrainwashing and straight up catches comedian's
bullet with his metal arm. And then withoutmissing a beat with his other arm, he just flings a
throwing knife that flacks right into comedian'sforehead. Dude, I said comedian snaped him. He was

(45:12):
far away. Winter Soldier could throw a knife thathard, that fast, that far. Yeah. OK. So what? All I
have left is Dr. Manhattan. Oh, no. Whatever.Psych. Dr. Manhattan is going to split himself
into three duplicates and one's going to teleportover to ghost and turn him into steam. And another

(45:34):
one's going to go to US agent. Just turn him toMercury. And the third one, he's going to teleport
over to Winter Soldier and turn him intosnowflakes. Wow. Easy peasy. And then he's going
to re merge into one giant being that's going tosnatch the century right out of the air. And, you
know, maybe taking a second to study hisphotosynthetic physiology. He's just going to

(45:59):
straight up turn him into a black hole. Match over.I win. OK. I'm going to say that Dr. Manhattan meant
to turn century into a black hole. But what heactually accidentally did was bring out the
centuries void persona. So this like black holethat Dr. Manhattan created, it actually develops
like this dark smile and shoots at a bunch of darktendrils that embed themselves into Dr.

(46:22):
Manhattan and they just explode him like a nuclearbomb. No, Dr. Manhattan would have seen this
coming, though. No, no, no, because there weretachyons. Right. Created by the mini black hole
that was actually the void. And then when Dr.Manhattan exploded like a nuclear bomb, like,
yeah, there were tachyons. And, you know, all thescience stuff. So he couldn't see it. Sorry.

(46:45):
You're just saying words. OK. Actually, you knowwhat? There was a nuclear bomb explosion. So as the
voids embedding itself in Dr. Manhattan, let'ssay suddenly this bright light crackles between
them just as a massive alien squid suddenlyexplodes onto the scene, not only blowing up the

(47:06):
void and Manhattan, but also invading their mindswith like disturbing psychic energy that
literally shatters their minds. And how how didthis happen when Ghost crashed Archie into
Ozymandias at the last second? He leaped throughone of Archie's giant eye windows and then he

(47:26):
rewired and rebooted the ship's technology tosend a signal back to bite industries and putting
coordinates for where his squid alien shouldappear and detonate. He probably knew he wouldn't
survive the explosion, but he knew that Dr.Manhattan could by reconstituting himself
afterward, giving his side the wind. Except, youknow, that the century would also regenerate from

(47:48):
this, not just Dr. Manhattan. So that would work.Yeah. OK, well, you know, Dr. Manhattan would
regenerate first, so we still win. I don't thinkso, but we can go ahead and leave the match there.
Either Dr. Manhattan regenerates fromOzymandias's giant squid explosion first or the
century regenerates first. Let's go ahead andfind out which scenario happens by inputting the

(48:11):
stats on these teams, running the simulations andcoming back with the winning team. AJ9K, hit it.
Inputting data, running calculations,processing results, simulations complete. All
right, this is quite the fun pairing, mostlybecause putting in the stats for the more street
level characters was funny compared to the moregod level power characters. Yeah, it was not even

(48:35):
close. Dr. Manhattan won a whopping 97.8 percentof his matches against the entire Thunderbolts
team. It was funny because it's rare that we everget a zero win rate percentage, but it happened for
the first time in the course of this match. Therewere several Thunderbolts characters who

(48:55):
literally stood a zero percent chance ofdefeating Dr. Manhattan. Yeah, he was by far the
most powerful character on either of our teams.Now, the century, obviously, was your most
powerful character. Yeah, and there were somewatchmen characters that the century beat, like,
99.9 percent of the time. So his overall win rateended up being 84.3 percent. It would have been

(49:19):
damn near close to 100 if it wasn't for Dr.Manhattan. It was interesting seeing how the
overall stat categories compared across eachteam, especially with things like evasiveness.
Like the Thunderbolts were way more evasive thanthe watchmen, largely because US agent has a
shield, taskmaster has a shield, red guardian hasa shield, ghost is fucking intangible and

(49:42):
invisible. So the Thunderbolts just dominated inthat category. Yeah, the only stat where the
street level watchmen characters really shinedin was fighting skill. They're all pretty good
fighters. And next to Dr. Manhattan, my mostimpressive character was actually Night Owl. I
thought it was going to be Ozzy Madius, but with theArchie Owl ship that really leveled up Night Owl in

(50:08):
terms of his stats. I mean, yeah, the watchmen weregood fighters, but the Thunderbolts were also
really good fighters. That's fair. And you guyswere also much more versatile than the watchmen as
well. I had the most powerful character, but I alsohad the two weakest characters in Silk Spectre and
Hooded Justice. Yeah, my weakest character wasactually Ghost, who does great in terms of

(50:30):
evasiveness, but wasn't really impressive in anyother stat category, except for intelligence and
versatility. Yeah, Ghost as your weakestcharacter had a win rate of thirty six point five
percent, whereas my lowest win rate of fourteenpoint six percent belonged to Silk Spectre. So we
got a nice little trade off here going basically,Jonathan, you have the character with the highest

(50:53):
win rate, but you also have the characters with thelowest win rate. My best win rate doesn't match Dr.
Manhattan's, but also I don't go as low as fourteenpoint six percent like you did. So that all said,
which team do you think came out on top? Well, it'skind of hard to say. I think it's going to be the
Thunderbolts, because even though Dr. Manhattanis statistically better than the Sentry, I think

(51:15):
that the rest of the team is far superior to theWatchmen. Although Instagram does not agree with
me in the poll that we put up prior to recording thisepisode, 69 percent of the poll takers sided with
the Watchmen. And I'm not surprised becauseWatchmen is way cooler than Thunderbolts and
everybody knows it. But did Watchmen get the win? AJNNK, the results, please. Here you are, sir. The

(51:43):
winning team in our matchup between the Watchmenand Thunderbolts is. Thunderbolts, that's
right. What did I say? Justice like lightning.They won an even 57 percent of their matches

(52:05):
compared to Watchmen who only won 43, which isactually a pretty decent showing for the
Watchmen. Right. Now, I guarantee you that Dr.Manhattan got all their wins for them almost
literally. Yeah. But still decent showing. Idon't understand this considering the fact that
at the start of each match, Dr. Manhattan couldliterally teleport the entire Thunderbolts team

(52:30):
to Mars and they would all just die. Well, thecentury wouldn't and he would bring him right back
to Earth and then kick Dr. Manhattan right in hisblue wiener. Whatever. Also, we don't consider
battlefield removal as a viable strategy in theseduels. Says you. Yeah, says the winner. Are you
sad, Jonathan? I'm not going to lie. I am prettysad. Like, I just want to go to bed now. Do you think

(52:55):
we could get you crying on air before we sign off?Well, let me try. Let me try. No, I can't do it.
Sorry. Well, that's too bad. But that doesn't forthis duel, guys. Agent 9K, help close this out.
Thanks for listening to Dynamic Jewel. Visit theshow's website at dynamicjewel.com and follow us
on Instagram at Dynamic Jewel podcast. You cansupport the show on Patreon at patreon.com slash

(53:20):
Dynamic Jewel and joining a tier that works for youor by rating and reviewing Dynamic Jewel on Apple
podcasts, Spotify, Podchaser or on our website.Don't forget to listen to the other shows in the
Dynamite podcast network, including MaxDestruction, Senjo World and Console Combat. As
we mentioned earlier, our next episode is going tobe a review of Marvel Studios Thunderbolts'

(53:47):
asterisk film. We'll find out what the asterisk isapparently when we see the film. Yeah, I'm excited
to see it. Basically staying off the Internet forthe whole rest of the week because I'm not seeing it
until Friday evening. And I know there's going tobe spoilers galore out there. So I can't wait to get
spoilers. And I could just forward them to youbecause I'm petty for losing this match. But thank

(54:09):
you for the warning. It helps me know that I shouldblock you now. I mean, I'm not going to do that.
Fuck. That does it for this episode, guys. We wantto give a big thanks to our executive producers,
John Staroski, Zachary Hepburn, Dustin Balcom,Mickey Mathen-Geehan, Brandon Estregard,
Nathaniel Wagner, Levi Yatten, AustinWuzelowski, A.J. Dunkerley, Nick Ibonto, Scott
Camacho, Gil Camacho, Adam Speese, Dean Moleski,Devin Davis, Joseph Kirchsting, Josh Schleiner,

(54:34):
Mike Williams and Oscar Galvez for helping makethis podcast possible. We'll talk to you guys next
week. Up up and away, true believers. Who watchesthe Watchman when the justice like lightning is or
shit. I lost it.