July 15, 2025 • 10 mins
Shadrack Sibiya placed on leave amid allegations of political interference and corruption. COSATU’s Matthew Parks joins Africa Melane to unpack the fallout.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Wake up. It's your only breakfast with Africa Milani.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Sixteen minutes. It has now past five o'clock. Quite a
few developments in the world of policing. Most recent the
President Ramaposa placing Gudemantashe as Acting Police Minister, a role
he will be in for just over two weeks actually,
as we wait for Professor Katalia to officially retire from
(00:25):
his academic work at Vits University and then take on
the role as acting Police Minister from the first of August.
But the National Police Commissioner, General Massamola in Durban yesterday
announced that he has placed the Deputy National Commissioner Sabia
on special leave. He said he's asked him to stay
(00:47):
at home while the investigation is underway and it is
possible that after the investigation has been concluded they might
find nothing and then he comes back to work. Joining
me via Zoom is COSATU's parliamentary coordinator Matthew Parks to
reflect on all of this. Matthea, very good morning and
welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Good morning, thanks for having us. Hope you well.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Some questions around why the National Police Commissioner has placed
General Sebia on special leave as opposed to either dismissing
not dismissing him, suspending him is the word I was
looking for, or transferring him to another department.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Well, I think you.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Know, just like with the Minister for Police sanzum Kunu.
You know, series allegations have you made and they need
to be dealt with, They need to be ventilated, and
they also need to be given a chance to respond
to them. It's difficult because there's no evidence has been
presented to indicate what is actually are they accused of,
what is actually might they have been alleged to have done?
(01:50):
So workplaces do allow an employee to put workers on
specially absent you know, leave absence, et cetera. Happens frequently.
I think the idea is that you don't want to
have somebody in positional authority when the city allegations be
made against them by very ceney members the police. On
other hand, you also don't want to find them guilty
(02:10):
because if you dismiss somebody, if you're permanently transferre to somebody,
that is almost an active sanction and you haven't found
them guilty. You don't even know exactly what is it
that they're charged with. But also to follow the rules
of the law. You haven't also given them a chance
to respond to alegation made against them. So I think
for us it's a positive thing. You want to give
(02:32):
space for these allegation to be ventilated. You don't want
to have persons with clousing of the heaving positional authority.
But also you do want to give them themselves time
as well to also focus on their responses and their
own preparations to give testimony at the commission inquiry as well.
So I think for us it's the best way to
handle a very delicate matters, the least worst options, so
(02:55):
to speak, and it's the most fair option as well.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Is it the most efficient though? I wonder because and
appreciate that this matter needs to be addressed with a
certain sense of urgency right because it does, I suppose
bring to the foreground again the question around the integrity
of these South African policing services.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Look, I deal scenario wouldn't have any of these issues,
but the energy is allegations have been made since allegations
by a very seenor of the police service against very
senior leadership of the police.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
So they need to be dealt with.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
You can't stop it under the carpet, because that's what
he wrote, the confidence society needs to have in the police,
the judicially correctional services and so forth. But at the
same time, there hasn't been any actual evidence presented that
you could say, yes, this person has done this or
whatever it might be.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
No one has been charged.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
If a minister has been charged, the asy's got quite
a clear step aside rule where the minute you're a
charge you need to stand aside, you know, resign, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
But they haven't even been charged yet.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
And at the same time you also want to be
fair to the minister, to the to the General, the
Deputy commisty Commission Police who had not been given a
chance to give this side of the story. Yet there
might very well be innocent, it might be very well
be able to give rational explanation to the issues. So
you need to find the affair of sober power. And
I think for us, if the President simply said, well,
(04:20):
waiting for police to be charged or the president to
be charged, what did that took another two years? You
couldn't afford to have such a cloud hang of the
leadership or the police service. But also you couldn't afford
to dismiss people either because no one has been charged,
there's been no actual evidence presented, et cetera. So it's
a difficult deck. Of course, a president and the Commission
(04:42):
Police are given I think they've had it in the
best way they could do. So the challenge now is
for the Commission of Inquiry to do is work. The
President has given quite clear time frames of three months
for the initial report, six months for the final report,
and that that's useful because society also doesn't want to
see it long on our process. They want to see
things will going quickly, and I think also the persons
(05:05):
who have been accused of want to have that chance
to clear their names quickly.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
And of course the ordered members of.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
The police, the ordinary prosecutors, prisons such also don't want
to go to work with such a cloud hanging of
the institutions as well. So I think fast as the
only released, sensitive, sensible way to manage a very very
toxic situation.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
The Secretary Journal of the A and C giving a
media briefing yesterday confirming that Police Minister sends them could
know who as you know, has been placed on leave
as Police Minister will continue to serve as member of
Parliament because well the ANC has not decided to redeploy
him in any way. Whatsoever should Parliament be placing him
(05:48):
on special leave as the investigations are underway, because remember
Parliament will have its own investigations led by three portfolio committees.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Yeah, so so Parliament will happens hearings inquiring to the matter.
So if they decided some stags they need to do sanction,
that will be within their choice. I don't think the
ANC could preempt that. And again you need to give
the two board chance to give the side of the story.
But it doesn't know what the ANC Secretary General was
(06:19):
saying that. Look, he still is a member apartment because
all ministers, boarding those who Parliament are members of Parliament.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
So what will be his duties.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
His duties will basically be to go to the House
when they vote to pass the budget et cetera. That
is quite critical for the stability of government, the budget
et cetera, because you know, the ANC has got forty
percent of MPs.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
We saw this year through the three budget votes.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
How literally every single vote counts, and so I think
for our side, look that's fine, this provides you know,
the vote in Parliament. But I think the point of
the reason why the President put the Minister on on
on leave of absence is that so he's not overseeing
the police wile this commissioned under excess work and so
his being a backbench in Parliament sitting in the House
(07:04):
on their vote on whatever bills, including the budget bills,
that doesn't present the kind of conflict of interests that
would have presented it if he was, you know, still
acting as a as the Minister for Police. So I
think from outside there's no real problem with that. I
think the focus really is for the commission to be
given the results he needs to fulfill us work order
to move a speed to address issues, and for those persons,
(07:27):
including General Quaranazi, to come present whatever evidence they may
or may not have, and for the Minister for the
General Sibia to be given a chance to respond, and
to for the judge himself the Deputy Chief Justice, to
have a chance to say here's the recommendations, here's why
we need to be done, or if he even wants
(07:48):
to say this or actually intent of any charges and
they can go back to work. So I think for
us that's the real focal point.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Let me ask this as our parting question. Matthew the
all ten lberteen as assorda foundation calling for player Enramaposita
to resign, citing his failure to effectively address the country's corruption.
This in response, of course, to the president's decision to
place a police minister on special leave and creating a
judicial commission of inquiry. Is this a call that you
(08:15):
support in any way?
Speaker 3 (08:18):
No, it's not, and it's quite disappointing. We're not sure
exactly who does the Sisulu Foundation represent a Both what
and Obituni se Sulu are deceased, so does it represent
Lindue Susulu, who is one of the acnec. Does it
include his siblings of proto fame?
Speaker 1 (08:32):
We're not sure.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
How do they come to their conclusion. But it's not
really helpful for any simil then to be such processes.
But look, the call is unhelpful. They want to say
the president should resign on what basis? A president can't
be a coward to simply abandons ship because it's presented
(08:53):
with the crisis. Presidents need to do a crisis all
the time. They need to find a way to manage
its found way the only subway to manage this issue,
and I think we think if he actually resigned, as
the SULI Foundation says he should, that will create real
crisis for the country. So I think for us, the
foundation's call is really petty, is not helpful, and it
(09:16):
lacks any sense of maturity. And I think for ourselves
we don't take us seriously. We went to elections last
year forty percent society supported the ANC which recommended the
president imposter. He was elected by majority of parliament. If
parliament doesn't want to see him continuing, then they have
conscucual processes to do that. But it'll make no sense
(09:36):
for a president resign because a minister has been alleged
that he could have done something.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
I'm not sure what that would be a very strange thing.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
That's the kind of basis that the Foundation things we
should govern South Africa. Then we will really be running
ourselves like some sort of high school for a turnanty group,
which wouldn't be a sober thing to do.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
All right, Matthew, thank you very much indeed for your
time this morning. Matthew Park's parliamentary coordinator for Kussat too
Wake up. It's your only breakfast with Africa Milani.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Sixteen minutes. It has now past five o'clock. Quite a
few developments in the world of policing. Most recent the
President Ramaposa placing Gudemantashe as Acting Police Minister, a role
he will be in for just over two weeks actually,
as we wait for Professor Katalia to officially retire from
(00:25):
his academic work at Vits University and then take on
the role as acting Police Minister from the first of August.
But the National Police Commissioner, General Massamola in Durban yesterday
announced that he has placed the Deputy National Commissioner Sabia
on special leave. He said he's asked him to stay
(00:47):
at home while the investigation is underway and it is
possible that after the investigation has been concluded they might
find nothing and then he comes back to work. Joining
me via Zoom is COSATU's parliamentary coordinator Matthew Parks to
reflect on all of this. Matthea, very good morning and
welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Good morning, thanks for having us. Hope you well.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Some questions around why the National Police Commissioner has placed
General Sebia on special leave as opposed to either dismissing
not dismissing him, suspending him is the word I was
looking for, or transferring him to another department.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Well, I think you.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
Know, just like with the Minister for Police sanzum Kunu.
You know, series allegations have you made and they need
to be dealt with, They need to be ventilated, and
they also need to be given a chance to respond
to them. It's difficult because there's no evidence has been
presented to indicate what is actually are they accused of,
what is actually might they have been alleged to have done?
(01:50):
So workplaces do allow an employee to put workers on
specially absent you know, leave absence, et cetera. Happens frequently.
I think the idea is that you don't want to
have somebody in positional authority when the city allegations be
made against them by very ceney members the police. On
other hand, you also don't want to find them guilty
(02:10):
because if you dismiss somebody, if you're permanently transferre to somebody,
that is almost an active sanction and you haven't found
them guilty. You don't even know exactly what is it
that they're charged with. But also to follow the rules
of the law. You haven't also given them a chance
to respond to alegation made against them. So I think
for us it's a positive thing. You want to give
(02:32):
space for these allegation to be ventilated. You don't want
to have persons with clousing of the heaving positional authority.
But also you do want to give them themselves time
as well to also focus on their responses and their
own preparations to give testimony at the commission inquiry as well.
So I think for us it's the best way to
handle a very delicate matters, the least worst options, so
(02:55):
to speak, and it's the most fair option as well.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Is it the most efficient though? I wonder because and
appreciate that this matter needs to be addressed with a
certain sense of urgency right because it does, I suppose
bring to the foreground again the question around the integrity
of these South African policing services.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Look, I deal scenario wouldn't have any of these issues,
but the energy is allegations have been made since allegations
by a very seenor of the police service against very
senior leadership of the police.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
So they need to be dealt with.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
You can't stop it under the carpet, because that's what
he wrote, the confidence society needs to have in the police,
the judicially correctional services and so forth. But at the
same time, there hasn't been any actual evidence presented that
you could say, yes, this person has done this or
whatever it might be.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
No one has been charged.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
If a minister has been charged, the asy's got quite
a clear step aside rule where the minute you're a
charge you need to stand aside, you know, resign, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
But they haven't even been charged yet.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
And at the same time you also want to be
fair to the minister, to the to the General, the
Deputy commisty Commission Police who had not been given a
chance to give this side of the story. Yet there
might very well be innocent, it might be very well
be able to give rational explanation to the issues. So
you need to find the affair of sober power. And
I think for us, if the President simply said, well,
(04:20):
waiting for police to be charged or the president to
be charged, what did that took another two years? You
couldn't afford to have such a cloud hang of the
leadership or the police service. But also you couldn't afford
to dismiss people either because no one has been charged,
there's been no actual evidence presented, et cetera. So it's
a difficult deck. Of course, a president and the Commission
(04:42):
Police are given I think they've had it in the
best way they could do. So the challenge now is
for the Commission of Inquiry to do is work. The
President has given quite clear time frames of three months
for the initial report, six months for the final report,
and that that's useful because society also doesn't want to
see it long on our process. They want to see
things will going quickly, and I think also the persons
(05:05):
who have been accused of want to have that chance
to clear their names quickly.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
And of course the ordered members of.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
The police, the ordinary prosecutors, prisons such also don't want
to go to work with such a cloud hanging of
the institutions as well. So I think fast as the
only released, sensitive, sensible way to manage a very very
toxic situation.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
The Secretary Journal of the A and C giving a
media briefing yesterday confirming that Police Minister sends them could
know who as you know, has been placed on leave
as Police Minister will continue to serve as member of
Parliament because well the ANC has not decided to redeploy
him in any way. Whatsoever should Parliament be placing him
(05:48):
on special leave as the investigations are underway, because remember
Parliament will have its own investigations led by three portfolio committees.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
Yeah, so so Parliament will happens hearings inquiring to the matter.
So if they decided some stags they need to do sanction,
that will be within their choice. I don't think the
ANC could preempt that. And again you need to give
the two board chance to give the side of the story.
But it doesn't know what the ANC Secretary General was
(06:19):
saying that. Look, he still is a member apartment because
all ministers, boarding those who Parliament are members of Parliament.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
So what will be his duties.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
His duties will basically be to go to the House
when they vote to pass the budget et cetera. That
is quite critical for the stability of government, the budget
et cetera, because you know, the ANC has got forty
percent of MPs.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
We saw this year through the three budget votes.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
How literally every single vote counts, and so I think
for our side, look that's fine, this provides you know,
the vote in Parliament. But I think the point of
the reason why the President put the Minister on on
on leave of absence is that so he's not overseeing
the police wile this commissioned under excess work and so
his being a backbench in Parliament sitting in the House
(07:04):
on their vote on whatever bills, including the budget bills,
that doesn't present the kind of conflict of interests that
would have presented it if he was, you know, still
acting as a as the Minister for Police. So I
think from outside there's no real problem with that. I
think the focus really is for the commission to be
given the results he needs to fulfill us work order
to move a speed to address issues, and for those persons,
(07:27):
including General Quaranazi, to come present whatever evidence they may
or may not have, and for the Minister for the
General Sibia to be given a chance to respond, and
to for the judge himself the Deputy Chief Justice, to
have a chance to say here's the recommendations, here's why
we need to be done, or if he even wants
(07:48):
to say this or actually intent of any charges and
they can go back to work. So I think for
us that's the real focal point.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Let me ask this as our parting question. Matthew the
all ten lberteen as assorda foundation calling for player Enramaposita
to resign, citing his failure to effectively address the country's corruption.
This in response, of course, to the president's decision to
place a police minister on special leave and creating a
judicial commission of inquiry. Is this a call that you
(08:15):
support in any way?
Speaker 3 (08:18):
No, it's not, and it's quite disappointing. We're not sure
exactly who does the Sisulu Foundation represent a Both what
and Obituni se Sulu are deceased, so does it represent
Lindue Susulu, who is one of the acnec. Does it
include his siblings of proto fame?
Speaker 1 (08:32):
We're not sure.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
How do they come to their conclusion. But it's not
really helpful for any simil then to be such processes.
But look, the call is unhelpful. They want to say
the president should resign on what basis? A president can't
be a coward to simply abandons ship because it's presented
(08:53):
with the crisis. Presidents need to do a crisis all
the time. They need to find a way to manage
its found way the only subway to manage this issue,
and I think we think if he actually resigned, as
the SULI Foundation says he should, that will create real
crisis for the country. So I think for us, the
foundation's call is really petty, is not helpful, and it
(09:16):
lacks any sense of maturity. And I think for ourselves
we don't take us seriously. We went to elections last
year forty percent society supported the ANC which recommended the
president imposter. He was elected by majority of parliament. If
parliament doesn't want to see him continuing, then they have
conscucual processes to do that. But it'll make no sense
(09:36):
for a president resign because a minister has been alleged
that he could have done something.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
I'm not sure what that would be a very strange thing.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
That's the kind of basis that the Foundation things we
should govern South Africa. Then we will really be running
ourselves like some sort of high school for a turnanty group,
which wouldn't be a sober thing to do.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
All right, Matthew, thank you very much indeed for your
time this morning. Matthew Park's parliamentary coordinator for Kussat too
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