National Convention set amidst controversy

Zain Johnson speaks to Dr Oscar van Heerden, Senior Research Fellow at the Centre for Diplomacy and Leadership at the University of Johannesburg, ahead of the National Convention for the National Dialogue which takes place today.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Very good morning to you. Welcome to the Early Breakfast
show on seven oh two and on Cape Talk come
Saint Johnson in for Africa. Milani will chat to us
at about twenty two six because he's doing the Cape
Town breakfast for Less to Kivot this morning. Will also
catch up with Bonkani Bingua on seven oh two as
to what's happening on their breakfast show. But let's turn

(00:20):
our attention firstly to the National Convention which is set
as a precursor for the National Dialogue. Is set to
take place this weekend from the fifteenth today until the
seventeenth on Sunday, and the event will bring together two
hundred organizations from thirty three sectors to agree on the framework,
the theme and the steering structure for a nationwide citizen

(00:44):
led conversation on South Africa's future. But preparations have been
marked by division within the organizing team, with withdrawals of
key foundations, political parties refusing to attend a lot of
other things happening within that space. Telphan here then unpacks
what is at stake and how the process can still succeed.

(01:05):
We chat to Dr Askafani, a senior research fellow at
the Center for Diplomacy and Leadership. Good morning to you,
doctor as Tephanedden and welcome to the show again.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Good morning, good morning to your listeners.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
We've got a voice note doctor Thompson Dilley, and he
chats about the National dialogue. Maybe we can kick off
with this voice not and take it from there.

Speaker 3 (01:28):
Good morning. Then you know, the arrogance of the president
when it comes to this national dialogue, the arrogance of him,
it's it's amazing. But what shocks me with more is
that everybody jumps when these political parties are saying, we're
not going to attend this steleog the Foundations, We're not

(01:51):
going to attend the Stanlocks, and everybody is making a
big deal out of it. Maybe this is a big deal,
but when this citizens, because there's a significant number of citizens,
including myself, we don't want this. Then nobody talks about
the citizens. But they're saying it's the people's stylo and

(02:12):
the main characters of this dialog is perceived as these citizens.
But the citizens are saying we don't want it, and
nobody talks about that. The media, your media, including they're
not saying anything about the citizens. Nobody's still in the
president about president, even the people. They don't want this.

(02:34):
Then they've boycotted this dialogue. Nobody makes a big deal
about it. That makes this di look illegitimate. But it
shows us that the interest is not the people. It's
those they elite, the politicians, the business people, those who
are most important in this country want to speak on

(02:55):
our behalf. I don't want anybody.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
To speak on my behalf, doctor Baniaden. That is quite
quite a lot of sentiment in one particular voice out there.
Is he right or you know? He he says he
doesn't want anybody, any politicians speaking on his behalf. One
are the foundations of the convention taking place this weekend,

(03:18):
which will lead probably into the national dialogue taking place later.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah, you know I'm saying, I mean, I understand, may
hear what Sandi Lay is saying, but you know, we
have to ask the question how exactly does sand Lay
feel he needs to be represented? Because I find it
a bit curious when he says the people are not
part of this. You know, people generally are represented through

(03:48):
various organizations, civil society Son called the Civics organizations, and
a number of other church groups. And so on and
so forth. You know, when we talk about the voice
of the people, the only way that voice finds expression,
I would imagine, is through various organizations and groups and

(04:12):
so on and so forth. And when we are told
that more than two hundred organizations are going to be participating,
then the question becomes, are those not in part representatives
of the people, Because I don't want us to talk
about something amorphous that we don't see and feel, you know,

(04:37):
because the people. The only way we can interact with
the people is if we think back, for example, to Cadessa,
because of democratic South Africa, where there was these mass
consultations about what we should do and how we should
go forward with taking the country to the first democratic
elections in nineteen ninety four. Those were various organizations of societies,

(05:03):
et cetera that represented the people. So I hear what
sand Lay is saying, and I understand, and I hear
what some of the foundations that has withdrawn us saying.
But I think it's a bit premature, in my opinion,
to make the conclusion that this convention is not going
to be representing citizens and the people. I think what

(05:25):
we should see look at is who exactly are these
organizations and people that are going to be coming over
the coming days claiming to represent the people? Is it?

Speaker 1 (05:35):
Is it a situation that we as the media are
making too much about the major legacy foundations pulling out
of the organizing process. But there's also been some political
parties openly refusing to attend. Does that sort of take
or detract a little bit away from the credit, the
credibility and the unity and the inclusivity of the national

(05:58):
Convention and dialogue?

Speaker 2 (06:00):
Yeah, I mean, I think I don't think that the
media is necessarily making a big thing a mountain out
of a mole hill. Now, I think it is important
to report on various stakeholders that are not showing an interest,
But let me start with the political parties that we
need to take with a pinch of salt as far
as I'm concerned, because the government is a key stakeholder

(06:21):
that is driving this process. So I'm not surprised if
opposition parties to the African National Congress are wanting to
political points scoring here. You know, we know, for example
that Helen's and others in the DA has already indicated
that they are not part of They don't want to
be part of this convention about this dialogue and so forth,

(06:44):
and they have their reasons for that, but I do
think that we need to take it with a slight
pinch of salt if we naively at thought that everyone
on the political front is going to be together on
this issue. Because remember, if we're talking and I'm sure
will come to it the in but if we're talking
of a genuine national dialogue, we are going to be

(07:05):
talking about very controversial things of which political parties disagree
on issues of class, issues of race, it is of
gender and so and so I'm not surprised we need
to take that with a pinch of salt. And then
the second thing is with the foundations. Now we all
know that part of the foundations is also the Tambaky Foundation.

(07:31):
The patron former President Baki is one of the key
people that actually came up with the idea of a
national dialogue and now they have withdrawn. I think that
there are some there are some issues there in terms
of how they thought they would envisage this taking place
and how it is now playing out. Perhaps they wanted

(07:53):
a bigger role, and we also know about ego issues
of the individuals involved. And so forth. So I think
that it is a bit of a mutch of a
muchness because at the end of the day, the key
stakeholders is organized labor in this country. It is about
the private sector, it's about government, and of course it's

(08:13):
about various organizations that represent the broad constituency of the people.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
Telling this morning to doctor ask Ivania and senior research
fellow at the Center for Diplomacy and Leadership at the
University of Johannesburg, a doctor, There's been a lot of
talk around the national Convention taking place over this weekend
and what that frameworks it should look like, what should
be the key aims and priorities be for the National

(08:40):
Convention this weekend.

Speaker 2 (08:43):
Well, I mean, I think, as the President of outlined,
it is not going to dove into the key issues
just yet. That is obviously for the dialogue itself. But
what this few days are going to do is to
talk about the logistics around that. How do we actually
engage in having a national dialogue, How should it take place,

(09:03):
how should it actually be constituted, who should drive it?
All of those key elements is what is actually going
to be discussed so that everyone should move from the
same premise, so that if by the end of a
National Dialogue, everyone is actually part of it and they
own it. Because without ownership, if we're not going to

(09:26):
take ownership of the National Dialogue, then it's not going
to go anywhere. And I think that's what's going to
be discussed over the next few days. And this is
why I'm slightly confused that the Foundation, some of the
foundations are not party to this process, because this is
actually the disagreement about it being citizens led, for example.

(09:51):
It is this next few days that that is going
to be ironed out and how exactly do we make
it people centered?

Speaker 1 (09:59):
In your view? Dot, what must happen at the convention
this weekend to restore confidence and to probably bring those
skeptics back on board again, because you know, I always
say that you can't catch a fish if your line
is not in the water, you know, which means that
you can't afterwards come and complain if you haven't been
part of the process, if you haven't voted, you haven't

(10:21):
been part of that process. So what must happen this
weekend at this convention, which is sort of setting the
roadmap for the National Dialogue in order to probably bring
people like the Taboo Becky Foundation, the Amadkatrada Foundation, the
Nelson Mandela Foundation, to bring those people who've been calling
for this dialogue, to bring them back on board again.

Speaker 2 (10:41):
I think that we need to observe over the next
few days exactly the integrity and who are going to participate.
I think that the statements coming out of this process
over the next two or three days is what is
going to try and bring everyone on board. And of

(11:02):
course a lot of behind the scenes diplomacies are required
to make sure that the Foundation's concerns are also tackled. Remember,
they did leave the door open. I think it's important
for the listeners to know that in their statement where
they announced that they are not happy with the preparatory
task team and so forth, they did say we are

(11:23):
not shutting the door on the process because we believe
in the national dialogue. We think it is important that
it takes place, but we have a few concerns. I
think those concerns can still be ironed out. If indeed
there is no malice behind the withdrawals, if indeed it
is not about trying to point score politically, then I

(11:44):
do think that it is not insurmountable, and of course
everyone does want all the foundations and everyone else to
be part of the process. But the thing that made
the President perhaps continue with it is he wanted to avoid,
I think, a situation of on his face. He had
set a date, he had put in some credible individuals

(12:05):
in the preparatory task team. He had hoped that everyone
would be able to find each other as we move
towards this day, and unfortunately it didn't work out that way.

Speaker 1 (12:17):
And that's professor at DOT to ask, if I'm heard
and chatting to our senior research fellow at the Center
for Diplomacy and Leadership at the University of Johannesberg, and
your thoughts on that zero one, one, eight, three seven two.
Will you first wait for the national convention to take
place where two hundred organizations from city three sectors will

(12:37):
agree or try to agree on the framework, the themes
and the steering structure for a national dialogue, which is
going to be citizen led conversation, and you, as a citizen,
will then be speaking through some of the civic organizations
representing us at the particular national dialogue taking place later
this year.