Probe into selling of teacher posts deepens

Africa Melane speaks to NAPTOSA’s Basil Manuel about the ELRC’s investigation into ghost teachers and the alleged selling of teaching posts.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
An You're were seven eighteen Africa Milani on early Breakfast.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
It's a quarter past five now this Wednesday morning. The
Education Labor Relations Council has launched a wide ranging investigation
into what they call ghost teachers and allegations of sale
of teaching posts. Joining me on the line is Exective
Director of NAPTOSA Basil Manual Basil. A very good morning
and welcome to the show.

Speaker 1 (00:25):
Good morning Africa, A pleasure to be with you.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
I am fully aware that you're having a meeting with
a Department of Basic Education later today and hopefully you'll
be enlightened even more, but I thought it important to
have the conversation. Nonetheless, how widespread is the sale of
teaching posts in our education system? From what you know.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
Africa, If we simply just go by anecdotal evidence, because
much of this is anecdotal, it appears to be pretty
widespread and it varies from province to province, with two
or three provinces being really bad, such as them Popo
and clase it In. They have particularly been fingered as

(01:10):
having a very widespread problem and the players that are
being fingered very as well. One would imagine that principles
are involved because we've heard much about that, but its
officials from the department as well that are involved. In
my personal experience with somebody coming to me looking for help,

(01:34):
a young lady who was seeking a post, was simply
desperate not getting a post, went to the department and
was promised to post at a price which unfortunately paid,
but it wasn't delivered. And of course when you came
to me, I also had to point out that fault
is on both sides because you can't bribe somebody for

(01:59):
a post, but that is what desperation does. So it's
happening in various quarters. How widespread it is we will
still discover, but anecdotally it appears to be bad.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
Let's understand the process then of appointing a teacher. You
go through whatever the required level of training and qualification
is concerned. The various provincial departments will then publish posts
that are available for application. You apply. What happens next.

Speaker 1 (02:35):
Africa, that is rhythm. The mistake first starts. It is
with post level one post that is entry level posts.
Are there aren't any publications done in the norm. Then
the norm is a vacancy arises at a school because
somebody is retired or unfortunately passed on whatever. But the

(02:56):
vacancy arises and the school looks for a replacement, and
if the replacement has been there for more than three
months satisfactially, the school can then apply for that person
to be made permanent. But this is where the problem
comes in, where principles get involved, where they gatekeep and

(03:19):
they start baruching on this issue. Alternatively, the department is
aware that there is a vacancy there and suddenly somebody
arrives at the school and they say, okay, no, this
person is a bursary holder, and there's a bit of
two and throwing. But meanwhile there's something that has happened

(03:39):
in the background. So this is the problem that post
level one posts entry level posts are in the main
not advertised, and that opens the gate.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
What should happen then, basil, what would be an intervention
that will help us if not eliminate the idea of
desperate graduates desperate to be employed paying the money in
order for them to get opposed. If we only eliminate that,
at least we will minimize it as much as possible.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
Let me start by saying we have supported the notion
that we need to appoint people as soon as possible.
It was taken too long, which resulting en us having
thousands of people not being permanent. Yet there were permanent vacancies.
Now that has been abused by different players in the field,

(04:31):
and I believe that on the first level it is
the governing bodies that should have been far more alert
because they are responsible for the filling of these posts
and when they see some shenanigans happen, they ought to
be raising the alarm because they are the eyes and ears. However,

(04:52):
even they have been involved, so it is very difficult
to say yes the magic solution, But it is a
about publicly first of all, announcing that the post is vacant,
and then people like ourselves in the unions and in
the department, etc. That do have this responsibility can see

(05:15):
and watch and also ensure that there's no shenanigans behind
the scenes.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
We've suddenly read reports. I've definitely conducted interviews over the
last couple of years around how we are not seeing
enough teachers being absorbed into the education system and this
is a worry. Are we teaching enough teachers, et cetera,
et cetera. So I've always assumed that we have more

(05:45):
than enough posts available to be filled by those teachers
who are graduating.

Speaker 1 (05:52):
Africa. At the moment, we are going through a bit
of a bubble where we are producing more teachers than
can be absorbed immediately. But it's a temporary thing. It
has to do with the economy. The economy is not
buoyant enough. People look for safer type jobs, and you
find that more people go into teacher training and come

(06:15):
out in the hope that well, when things change, I
have a qualification and I can redirect myself. So at
the moment there's this little bubble, but it can't last.
Research shows that as soon as the economy improves, you
find a great dip happening. So we need to ensure
that we are trying to retain as many of these

(06:38):
and making them happy within the jobs that they are in.
And having a bad experience such as having had to
pay for a post, doesn't leave you happy and want
you to stay in the job.

Speaker 2 (06:51):
I'm starting to receive messages that read as follows, and
I'll try to redact as much of it as possible.
Morning Africa. A primary school in any area in a
Corilina posts to new educators to newly appointed hods. If
you do that, you don't get appointed. The money is
given to ex principal who is now working as an
acting district Big boss district is involved in it. It's

(07:15):
wrong and it's bad. Ghost posts is a daily thing.
I imagine this is the kind of message that you
would be exposed to as well.

Speaker 1 (07:23):
Basil absolutely and that there is one of the big
problems when people Africa. I think I should say it
this way. Corruption is so endemic. Everybody believes that they
have a right to try this and this is what
we need to stop route out and of course re

(07:45):
establish faith in the system that more people are good
people than bad people.

Speaker 2 (07:52):
That's true. Let's talk about ghost teachers for a moment.
The apartment saying that it has begun a rigorous employee
verification process as they are scores of employees who do
not work for the department who are still getting paid.

Speaker 1 (08:08):
Africa, year two, it's about corruption. Now, we've had many
head counts over the years, and of course who's doing
the head count has been primarily people from the department.
But if the departmental officials are involved, where they are
drawing salaries of people that are non existent Obviously the

(08:31):
head count is never going to be perfect, so it
is part of the desperation of trying to sort something
out by getting the larc involved, where presumably we will
have a group of people who have no who have
nothing to gain by fiddling that we will see that
a proper head count is done. There are presumably thousands

(08:55):
of people being paid who are not departmental officials, and
so you are not teachers, but the salaries are being
drawn by somebody. The salary doesn't just evaporate. Somebody is
getting the salary, whether it is a person getting a
double salary or alternatively this being paid into a bank

(09:17):
account that is being drawn by somebody else, or a
person not even in the education continuing to draw a salary.
There are a variety of combinations, and we've got to
find out exactly how many teachers they are. It has
presumed that there are a few thousand people that are
being overpaid, that have been paid that should not be paid,

(09:40):
and that comes to a substantial sum of money.

Speaker 2 (09:42):
Absolutely does What are you hoping to get out of
the meeting you have with the Department of a Basic
Education later and who else is invited?

Speaker 1 (09:50):
If you know Basil, it's between the unions and the
dj because we are together in this and we together
supported the idea within the Labor Relations Council because remember
the LSC is made up of fifty percent of the
union side and fifty percent the department side, and we

(10:11):
put our heads together to try and get these two
vexing issues resolved. So we are talking about modalities and
the like, and then of course the ELOC has to
share with us the ideas of how they are going
to go about with this and then we basically leave

(10:32):
them to do the job. So it is clarification of
time frames and the like.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
Good luck with that meeting, Basil. Thank you very much
for your time this morning. Basil Manual, executive director of NAPTUSA,
talking to us about I suppose the investigations into ghost
teachers that will be spearheaded by the Department of Basic
Education and more worryingly, the alleged sale of teaching posts
which is seemingly quite widespread in South Africa.