SAPU’s reaction to President Ramaphosa Mkhwanazi’s claims

Africa Melane speaks to Lesiba Thobakgale, National Spokesperson for the South African Policing Union (SAPU), following the President’s decision to place Police Minister Senzo Mchunu on leave while the commission investigates Mkhwanazi’s claims.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Africa Zontas at Africa Milanie. The President of Rama PASA
addressing the nation yesterday where he announced the judicial Commission
of Inquiry, which will be headed up by the Acting
Deputy Chief Justice and Briselli Mazanga, to investigate explosive allegations
made by General Quanazi just over a week ago. He
also announced the placement of Police Minister Sam Kuno on

(00:25):
immediate leave, and of course Professor Cotalia, who has been
a Community Safety AMEC in how Teng previously and now
is soon to be retired academic from Vitz University, he'll
take on that role of Police Minister as of the
beginning of August. Liciba Tomahale, you speak on behalf of
the South African Policing Union. Of course your members are

(00:47):
most immediately impacted by all of this. What is the
South African Policing Union's reaction response reflection on the President's
address yesterday, Good morning, Mornie.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
Thank you for giving us as Sabu. We've been vindicated
because two weeks back we called for a commission of
inquiry to look into the status of what is happening
at the Crime Intelligence and yesterday the President then announced

(01:19):
the establishment of the Commission of the inquiritied. We'll look
into those allocations that we made and it will look
into services as a whole, which we clearly do welcome.
And also the appointment of the acting Minister who is
a professor. We believe that he is an academic, is

(01:40):
a professor in this regard. He would not want to
compromise himself when it comes to issues of like political
interferences we have seen previously, and we will give him
our support as SAP in this regard. We also welcome
the I mean the the placement of Special Live to

(02:03):
Minister too, because the Commissioner of Inquiry would in proceed
quite well with him remaining being a minister and as
an executive decision maker in the police. In this regard.
If he's been placed now on Special Live, we clearly
welcome that because those allegations levels that leased him as

(02:25):
serious and any Commission of inquiry it wouldn't be good
for you to function with him still remaining to be
the Minister of Police.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
I imagine we will in the coming days here from
the National Police Commissioner, because listeners have been asking this
morning what of the Deputy National Police Commissioner Sibia, who
was also implicated in those allegations. It is for the
National Police Commissioner to place him on leave, should he
decide that is the course of action to take, not

(02:57):
for the President to do so.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Right, the other National Commissioner is the one who's responsible
for the day to day running off a SAPs and
all the provincial commissioners and everyone being the National Commissioners,
they report to.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
Him as the National Commissioner in terms of.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
The Police Act of nineteen ninety five and on any
operational matters, I think it lays on him. It is
up to him as the National Commissioner to say what
action is he going to take coming forward?

Speaker 3 (03:29):
I think I think let's afford the National Commissioner space
for him to continue to do what he seems to
be right in relation to these issues or those allegations.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
As he is the one who's the one who's responsible
for the day to day running off a SAPs. We
don't want to We don't we don't want to PreTect
for him or to dictate for him what he needs
to do.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
Well, you do have a wish though, right is there
a wish that the Policing Union has in as far
as the debut National Commissioner is concerned and I suppose
one has to ask what of the Provincial Commissioner, Chadam Kannaze,
what should happen to him now?

Speaker 2 (04:10):
Like we are saying the day to day running of SATs,
the National Commissioner is responsible for it. I think now
since the President, we asked the President to intervene after
the expose a last week Sunday, and now we've seen
the President has intervened and we've seen the National Commissioner
also coming on the media last week where he really

(04:33):
highlighted a few issues and I think it is only
fair for him, then the Responsible General Police, to be
given space for him to be able to apply his
mind in terms of is.

Speaker 3 (04:48):
There any action that he needs to take going forward,
not to really dictate to him, or what is it
that he has to do.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
The fact of time has been a massive concern the
President and in announcing that judicial Commission also reflected that
there will be two three monthly reports that will be
offered to the President and then the final report will
be offered to the President, the National Assembly Speaker as
well as the Chief Justice. So the Africans are concerned

(05:16):
that this Commission of Inquiry will take far too long
before we start to one receive recommendations, which by the way,
the President or the country for that matter, is not
obligated to follow once those recommendations are published.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
In this regard, we are quite you know, we've got
hope and we believe in that the Commission in from
query will be able to really dig deeper because the
main thing is to dig deeper into the allegations that
we made. I mean when you look at issues that
even revolves around time intelligence which initially made us to

(05:51):
make a call for the call for the Commission of
Inquiry to be established. And in this regard, we also
believe that it is for us to give the Commission
of Inquiry some time for them to do what they
need to do. And if you could remember the President said,
where the Commission picks up some criminal elements and the
selection that needs to be taken, those actions would be effected,

(06:15):
which is.

Speaker 3 (06:15):
What we are finding it as the rule of law
being the one that is applicable in this regard. And
also remember that everyone is in a set up until
proven guilty, so the Commission would be able to uncover
because it will it seeks to investigate and really go
and interrogate the allegations that were made in this regard
and criminal activities being picked up and substantiated, then actions

(06:40):
will be taken, not that it will be, it will
await the you know, the final report today off in
terms of those recommendations that that confirmation.

Speaker 2 (06:50):
Came from the President himself yesterday.

Speaker 3 (06:53):
So we do find comfort in this regard because we
called for the intervention of the president and the President
has intervened with something that is taking us somewhere, and
we are also saying that let it be given an opportunity.

Speaker 1 (07:06):
What are the urgent concerns that you have as far
as crime intelligence and that you hope obviously this Commission
of Inquiry will uncover.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
National security, I mean any issues that attached in national security,
and they take integrity of the country and a SAPs
is really concerning to us because if our national security
gets compromised, then it means that a country, you know,
anything can happen in our country or even in the
SAPs itself. That is not what we are looking for.

(07:35):
That is not what we want to be seen. Because
we are carrying the best interest of our members and
the best interests of the country as a whole in
this rechard and based on the allegations that we're made
by the PC of cases, and we hope that the
Commission is the one now being afforded time to go
dig deeper into all of them, investigate them further, interrogate

(07:59):
them further in this regard so that we can really
get into the bottom of everything.

Speaker 1 (08:05):
See, but thank you very much indeed for your time
and your reflections this morning. Let's say about Tobahal, the
national spokesperson for the South African Policing Union,