2024, we were in you

Some of our patrons join us to review the past year

00.00.40: Introductions
00.02.20: Old  West News: First beta layout being reviewed!
00.05.00: Discussion: Most fun gaming moments of 2024; weirdest/most interesting mews of the year; most anticipated launch next year; and where does Year Zero go from here?
01.14.50: Goodbye

Effekt is brought to you by Effekt Publishing. Music is by Stars in a Black Sea, used with kind permission of Free League Publishing.

Like what we do?

• Sign up for updates on Tales of the Old West via our new website and download Tales of the Old West QuickDraw available for free on DriveThru 
• Put our brand on your face! (and elsewhere)
• Buy pdfs via our DriveThru Affiliate link
• Leave a review on iTunes or Podchaser
• Find our Actual Play recordings on effektap
• Find essay transcripts and other stuff on Matthew's, and Dave's blogs

★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Episode Transcript

Matthew (00:39):
Hello, and welcome to episode 248 of effect. 2024, we
were in you. And, my name isMatthew.

Dave (00:53):
Yeah. I'm I'm Dave. That wasn't the title that I
suggested.

Matthew (00:57):
No. It wasn't the new.

Dave (00:59):
It's it's That was frankly disgusting version of the title.

Matthew (01:03):
Yeah. That was right.

Dave (01:04):
Was that we we knew you. You know, I mean, we're not
drunk enough. It's only it's 8o'clock on a Thursday night,
guys. I mean, it's not like it'sparty time or anything.

Matthew (01:12):
But It's

Dave (01:13):
what have

Matthew (01:14):
we got on, Dave?

Dave (01:15):
On the show, Dave.

Matthew (01:16):
To say.

Dave (01:17):
I know. I know. I'm getting there. And and as as our
as our as our show notes said,we have lots of chat. So today
is, it's gonna be a, a littlereview, an opportunity now that
it's now 2025 and we're in thenew year for, some of our
wonderful patrons and friends tojoin the show, and they're

(01:38):
currently sitting there withwith all their mics carefully
mic'd off.
And we're gonna talk a littlebit about, some of our favorite
things. We're gonna talk a bitabout, you know, the weirdest or
most interesting news and andgaming of 2024. Then we'll look
forward a bit. What's the mostexciting release maybe in 2025?

(01:59):
And then we're thinking aboutwell, there was one answer to
that, which clearly people willget kicked very quickly if they
don't they don't ask that first.
And then and then we thought,well, where does the year zero
engine go from here? We are apodcast that was started from,
you know, the the free leagueand the year zero engine. So I

(02:19):
guess it doesn't hurt to justask the question, where does it
go from here? But this is thisis a reasonably freewheeling,
convention of folks. So we don'trun a stick religiously to any
of that.
So if anyone's got somethingreally exciting to add them,
then they should. But, withoutany further ado, let's let's No.

Matthew (02:37):
No. Let's not do that. Let's have some further ado,
Dave. Go on. Further ado.
We should quickly give a briefold west news.

Dave (02:47):
Okay. Yeah. We could do that. Go on then.

Matthew (02:49):
Because something very exciting happened over the last
couple of days or in fact on thevery last day of the year, last
year, what happened Dave?

Dave (03:00):
Well, we we got our beta version of the full layout. So
the full as it turns out, 290something pages of the of the
book. It might even be a bitmore than that because I don't
think we've got Yeah.

Matthew (03:16):
Because it turns out not to be the full ones. The the
the life path tables aren't

Dave (03:20):
yet in place. No. No. But anyway, so we got that, and,
I've had a good chance to startlooking at it today, in fact. So
I'm about about a quarter of theway through.
I know you've got further than Ihave, Matthew, but this is very
exciting because I hadn'texpected to get this quite this
quickly. Stefan has obviouslybeen working very hard over the

(03:41):
last, few weeks to get it intothis place, and it's looking
pretty good actually. In in manymany parts of it, it's looking
great. There are certainlythings to brush up and there are
things we're gonna talk aboutthat will get, get amended. But
actually, as a as a baseline,it's looking pretty damned good.

Matthew (04:00):
It is. It is. So far, we have only, a 114 issues, with
it, which now I say, sounds likequite a lot. But Well,

Dave (04:12):
actually, a lot of those are typos. It's more like
proofreading because I've beenproofreading it a bit as I've
gone. Not not properly, but, tryto do a little bit. So there's
quite a lot in there that I'venoted, which is simply typos or
there's a space in the wrongplace or there's a line missing.

Matthew (04:29):
Yeah. And I think with you that I've noticed, which
stuns me, but there you go.

Dave (04:33):
This is my un well, I I just wonder. Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew (04:37):
Yeah. You you can think of that. You can take it as read
that I wasn't looking for typosbecause if I was, I wouldn't
have seen them. I did spot a fewbecause I wasn't looking for
them, but, but I was justlooking at the general
composition and things like thatfor that most of my stuff.
Anyway, that's the news.
Just I think to keep peopleinformed, it's useful for them

(04:59):
to do that sort of stuff. Shallwe introduce the gang or get the
gang to introduce themselves?

Dave (05:04):
Introduce themselves. Yeah. Absolutely.

Matthew (05:07):
Okay. So, I am going to mute you unmute you one at a
time in the order that I see youon the screen announcing who you
are, and then I want you to saywho you are and what the most
fun ex gaming experience, Ihasten to add, the most fun
gaming experience that you hadin 2024. So we're gonna start

(05:29):
off, first of all, we

Dave (05:30):
We're we're we're gonna limit you to a minute.

Matthew (05:33):
A minute each? Yeah. Otherwise, the whole the whole
thing would have gone. So youdon't have to be

Dave (05:39):
as Lucretius as Matthew and I am. So you have to be
concise and good podcasting.

Matthew (05:44):
Yeah. Don't take us.

Dave (05:46):
Unlike us.

Matthew (05:46):
Do what we do what we say, not what we do. Do what we
don't say because, yeah. No.I'll I'll show up now.

Dave (05:54):
Let's get on with it, shall we?

Matthew (05:57):
So I'm gonna go, first of all, to you, Paul.

Paul V (06:01):
Hello. I'm Paul.
I'm a patron, and my mostexciting fun bit, of the year
was in a one ring game run byanother patron called John.
John. It was the time where wereenacted the ancient Khazad

(06:31):
dum, kingdom of Durin. Oh. Andthat was just so much fun,
really.
Matthew also played and as wellas well as some other patrons on
this call, but, yes, that was mymost fun

Dave (06:51):
That was at

Paul V (06:51):
the first session.

Matthew (06:52):
We didn't even have character sheets, did we? We
didn't have

Paul V (06:54):
character sheets. We just we just basically just,
very few roles. I think we had 2roles in the whole of that
particular session. It was

Dave (07:01):
just Yeah. It involved being chased across the bridge
by the Balrog then?

Paul V (07:05):
No. It was it involved killing the Balrog in the end,
but,

Dave (07:08):
Okay.

Pete (07:08):
Yeah.

Paul V (07:09):
It was good. Yeah. It was great.

Matthew (07:11):
So we have changed all of Lord of the Rings history
now.

Dave (07:14):
I was gonna say, and it is

Matthew (07:15):
now very different experience. Okay. Next in my
line is Pete.

Pete (07:25):
Hi, I'm Pete. My favorite experience this year was
probably playtesting carried onplaytesting Tales of the Old
West.

Matthew (07:36):
Woo hoo.

Dave (07:37):
Man, good boy.

Pete (07:38):
I thought I'd get the shout in early. You know? I'm
playing in the game run by Tony,Dave's brother, and I'm just
having so much fun being a git.

Dave (07:50):
Well, it is a good it is a great campaign, isn't it? And
we're not It's fantastic. Nastypeople.

Pete (07:56):
Oh, we're we're all just evil. It's brilliant.

Matthew (07:58):
Yeah. And then I'm coming across to Andy.

Andy (08:06):
Hi. I'm Andy. And my most enjoyable experience this year
is almost almost 2023, but itwas just into 24, was I ran a
World War 2 Cthulhu scenario anddrew some, a map of the sort of
area where the players weregoing. And I drew, a campsite
for some Germans and, you know,put it on the table. And my

(08:28):
stepson took one look at it andwent, ah, And at that point, I
couldn't take it seriouslyanymore.
So, but, yeah, apart from that,no. This year, I haven't done
that much gaming, but I'm hopingto run Solon Vale and Selwyn
Junior in the New Year.

Matthew (08:44):
Well And
was that World War 2 Cthulhuscenario actual Achtung Cthulhu?
Do I happen to know your wifewants to play?

Andy (08:51):
Yes. She does. But, no. We we did a a straight Cthulhu in
World War 2 because I don'tactually own Acton properly yet.
But, yeah, anyway, yeah, shedoes want to run it.
One of the players, my stepson'sother half, she turned up
dressed appropriately for the 19forties, which was quite cool.
Excellent.

Dave (09:09):
As a not as a Nazi?

Andy (09:11):
No. As a, you know the poster of the woman who's doing
keep the home front thing withthe head tilt

Matthew (09:16):
and all that?

Andy (09:17):
Yeah. I like that.

Matthew (09:18):
Rosie the Riveter, I think her name is.

Andy (09:21):
That's the one. Yep.

Matthew (09:22):
So yeah. And, and Frank, what was your,
experience? Fun experience. Fungaming experience.

Frank (09:32):
Well, fun gaming. Can I have 2?

Matthew (09:36):
Well, if you can fit them in, you can Yes.

Frank (09:39):
1 as a player, 1 as a GM. First of all, I'm Frank on the
Inter tubes. You might know thatone. So as a player, actually,
without actually sucking up toanybody, Tales of the Old West
was really, really good when weplayed our one shot. We had this
huge, shoot out outside thesaloon at the end, where
everybody was turning on HR.

(10:01):
That was really, really goodfun. Bruce was just shaking his
head. He run the

Matthew (10:05):
This was the Las Vegas, oh, what's it called? Las Vegas
treasure? Legacy. That was a

Dave (10:12):
Las Vegas legacy.

Frank (10:13):
Yeah. I can't remember what it was called. And as a as
a GM, we had a I think it waslast year. A really, really,
farcical thing basically goingon on our common campaign in the
little bit that I put in as ourown as my own home brew into the
big campaign where they werejust trying to to solve some
riddles and so on. But at onepoint, there was a big hole in

(10:35):
the ground.
They were trying to upsell downthere, and they ended up
basically all falling into therewith complications. And it was
so comedic in a way. It was areally good moment to run that.

Dave (10:47):
So there you go. Excellent.

Matthew (10:48):
Cool. Bruce, you're muted. I'll say this, and I
can't unmute you.

Bruce (10:55):
Well, I'll I'll mute myself. I'm Bruce. I'm a patron
as well. Favorite one I have.Certainly enjoyed running deals
a little west at conventions.

Matthew (11:10):
So

Bruce (11:10):
I'm getting good positive feedback. But I'm gonna upset
you. I think from the conventionrunning, I'm gonna pick Blade
Runner, because it's the way theplayers have been tackling, one
venture that I've been runningand pushing challenges on me
coming up with ideas I hadn'tthought of versus, trying to

(11:33):
find the clues to get to thenext scene, and that's been
quite good good to see you seenas well.

Matthew (11:41):
And is that an adventure of your own creation
there?

Bruce (11:44):
Yes. It's my own case file. Yep. Cool.

Matthew (11:48):
K. Right. And then, again, Paul, I can't unmute you
because you muted yourself.

Paul W (11:57):
And that's probably what my wife would prefer. Paul
Watson, yeah, my my big thingfor this year, my best game
experience for this year wasafter about 4 or 5 years, we
finally came to the end of ourmutant year 0. We've we found
out the big secret. Peter hasbeen our GM, long standing GM,

(12:21):
Bruce And

Matthew (12:21):
not the Pete earlier on in this

Paul W (12:24):
No. Not that Pete. No. Pete Pete Peter Barusa, he's one
he's a a member of, the clan.And, we we are now looking to
take on Ad Astra, which shouldbe fun.
Oh. Cool. And, I haven't playedTales of the Old West, but I
thought I better mention it justin case I get banned.

Matthew (12:47):
No. That's a good idea. I recommend that to everybody.
That

Dave (12:51):
that there's been no there's been no pre kind of,
like, you know, setting uppeople coming onto the show
today to say Tales of the OldWest is great. No pressure.
We're not staring down thecamera, giving you evil eye or
anything. You know, no threats.

Paul W (13:05):
Well well, I should say that a Scottish person and a
German person are gonna get alittle package from me soon,
which is the, alpha version ofthe foundry tells of the old
west system.

Matthew (13:20):
Oh, that's exciting.

Paul W (13:25):
Yeah. Andy Andy should put us up a sign saying, where's
my check? I'm not getting mymate.

Matthew (13:35):
And then, coming across to Jed. How are you, Jed? I'm
doing well.

Jed (13:41):
This is Jed from New Jersey. And, yeah. So I'll do 2.
One that's Tales of the Old Westand one that's not. The one
that's not is I ran Delta Green,but adapted the In Darkness We
Wait, Cthulhu scenario.
And it worked out very well forsort of a X Files meets slow

(14:05):
horses kind of, shenanigans

Paul W (14:08):
Cool.

Jed (14:09):
For my group. Really caught them off guard because they went
in with completely differentexpectations. And then yeah. So
for Tales of the Old West, ourvillage opened up a board game
cafe, and so I started running,Tales of the Old West playtest.

(14:30):
But before I started running it,I ran a session of, several
sessions of microscope to definethe town and the region around
it, which worked outextraordinarily well.
And, there were it's been goingon longer than I expected. I
figured it was like a 3 sessionthing, but, they wanna keep
going. So it's cool. Verycompelling.

Matthew (14:50):
The only problem here is everybody's gonna be
enjoying, microscope, and whenthey'll say, oh, no. We don't
wanna play your Tales of the OldWest.

Jed (14:57):
No. No. Now we're into it. Yep. We're

Matthew (14:59):
Oh, okay. Good. Good. Good. Good.
Good. Good. We've lost somebody.

Dave (15:04):
But I at the moment, but,

Matthew (15:06):
Yeah. I'm sure he'll be back. And Douglas, last but not
least.

Douglas (15:11):
Am I last?

Matthew (15:13):
Yeah. I think so.

Douglas (15:15):
Wow. Oh my gosh. That went fast. I'm Douglas. I'm
reluctant artsy, and I, forgetthe question.
No. It was, Tales of the OldWest.

Matthew (15:27):
Woo hoo.

Douglas (15:28):
But I'm not gonna repeat that because I I it was
exactly the same scene that,Frank identified. It was that

Dave (15:35):
shoot out

Douglas (15:36):
the whole the I am the naysayer of the group who's
like, I'm not really intowesterns. And I I really was
surprised at how much fun. SoI'm gonna say outgunned. I was
really surprised because Ihadn't played outgunned. I had
played household.

(15:56):
Outgunned, I played, at the endof the year with the same GM,
with Bruce, and it was amazing.I was really, I was really
overwhelmed with how good itwas. So, Outgun, certainly lived
up to the expectations thatpeople had been building in a a
path.

Matthew (16:16):
Excellent. And Dave Dave, of course, I said that
Doug was last, but whenever Ithink of the least, I think of
you, Dave. So what was your mostfun experience?

Dave (16:26):
You'll be last now, so that'll be the least, which is
fine. Well, yeah. I mean, okay.In quick succession, creating
effect publishing, the totalKickstarter, the any win for
Building Better Worlds. Thosethose are massive, massive great

(16:48):
These

Matthew (16:48):
aren't highlights. Most fun, Dave. Not boring stuff like

Dave (16:52):
These were quite fun for me. So the thing that surprised
me then as as fun and I itprobably shouldn't have
surprised me, but I I loveSpectaculars. Yeah. I thought I
was gonna enjoy it, but I didn'tthink I'd enjoy it quite as much
as I did and have been. And Iparticularly loved the the the

(17:12):
kind of the procedural way thatyou generate the world as a
group.
And some of the ideas we hadthere, I thought, were just
fabulous. And I love the idea ofof the the setting we've
created. And I kind of quitelike to write a novel about it
actually because I think it's afabulous setting or even really
do a cartoon comic for it. So Ithink that would be my surprise,
at how much I've enjoyedSpectaculars. It's great.

(17:34):
We played it twice now, andit's, yeah. Brilliant. Loving
it. And you, Matthew, last lastand most certainly least, what
was yours?

Matthew (17:45):
Well, I I can, I'm gonna give a shout out to a game
that lots of the group here oh,not lots of the group, but
members of this group here haveplayed run by Thomas who was
hoping to join us, but I thinkhe's, otherwise engaged, all the
way from Australia, and that isCthulhu played with the Western

(18:07):
rules and particularly ChrisSpivey's campaign, Harlem
Unbound. Although we went off abit, and the last adventure was
a non Chris by the adventure.But it it it was so thematically
correct. It was brilliant. Andin that, Douglas, Douglas's

(18:28):
character sacrificed himself,and it was all suitably.
So that was, I think, some of mymost fun gaming experiences.
Although

Douglas (18:41):
My character did kill some children, though. So

Matthew (18:44):
You did kill you did kill children. You yeah. You
were

Bruce (18:46):
sacrificing stuff.

Matthew (18:48):
So it's

Dave (18:49):
less it's it's less heroic than you might have made it
sound then.

Matthew (18:52):
They they were pretty infested, actually. I'd run
away, so I wasn't there to makea decision about the children.
But, I think although it wasvery much the wrong thing to do,
it was also in the world of,Cthulhu, probably the right
thing to do. So so well done,Douglas.

Dave (19:12):
Let's all congratulate Douglas on murdering children.
Yeah. This is just what I wantin this podcast. Yeah. No.
Perhaps not. Perhaps not. But,cool. So the other thing that
surprised me actually that I'veI I I enjoyed very, very much,
and there's no good reason why Ishouldn't have done, was Blade
Runner. And it took me a longtime to get around to playing

(19:33):
it.
Took couple of years, frankly,since you got the books. And we
still haven't finished the thethe the case file that Tony's
running for us. But it'sbrilliant. I'm absolutely loving
it. And it's something I mightcome back to later if we're
talking a bit about the yearsare ending and the 2 dice, you
know, mechanic rather than thedice Cool.
Cool.

Matthew (19:52):
Well, let's come back to it later because

Andy (19:54):
Yeah.

Matthew (19:54):
That's your second dip, and I'm pretty sure you were
over a minute to begin with. Andwe did limit everybody to a
minute, and that includes thehosts except for the timekeeping
host, who is me. Shall we moveon to our first, discussion
topic, which I've forgotten?

Dave (20:13):
I think that was our

Matthew (20:15):
the intro, Dave. Remind me.

Dave (20:17):
The most yeah. The weirdest, the most interesting
news or game of the of 2024.

Matthew (20:23):
Right. Shall we go in reverse order, but the new
reverse order, which starts withPete?

Pete (20:33):
Yeah. Most interesting. Well, the one I find most
interesting is, this, myfather's sword. I got it through
the post the other day.

Matthew (20:43):
Oh. Okay. Cool.

Pete (20:46):
I haven't played anything yet. I

Dave (20:48):
really wanna get the

Pete (20:49):
game going.

Dave (20:50):
I really can't escape going for now for now when you
hear that. Sorry, folks. It justhad to had to be done. Anyway,
carry on, mate. Sorry.

Andy (20:58):
But, yeah, I I'd I'd love

Pete (20:59):
to get I'd love to get a game in this year. I just I love
I love the idea the idea of themechanics, and I actually backed
it off of, off the back of yourpodcast with the with the
interview you did.

Matthew (21:14):
Oh, we're

Andy (21:16):
getting through

Dave (21:16):
to see.

Pete (21:17):
That that that's the most interesting game of 2024.

Matthew (21:20):
Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Gaming news, back to you,
Douglas.

Douglas (21:29):
I play, I play tested, my father's sword, and so that
was awesome. The mostinteresting weirdest news, I
think for me, it's it's, comingup in 2025, but it was announced
in 2024, the narrative dice. Andthe inclusion in narrative dice

(21:53):
in games like, Dagger Heart,which is Critical Rules thing
and, the Cosmere role playinggame. And so instead of just,
black and white, you hit, youfail. We're going back or
forward, toward a powered by theapocalypse kind of, levels of

(22:17):
success, levels of failure, andutilizing a dice.
I think that's I'm not sure howI feel about that yet, but it's
certainly there and it it's inbig companies with big backing
and stuff like that. So

Paul W (22:32):
Cool.

Matthew (22:34):
And so just just to fill this in for me, these are
dice with words on, like succeedand fail. No? No. No?

Douglas (22:44):
No. It's it's more along the lines in Cosmere. What
they have is they have a d 6.You have a a couple of dice
which are going to add either amodifier of 2 or a modifier of
4, and then you have, so theseare narrative that almost like a
push mechanic, but a dramaticscene. So it's very narrative,

(23:07):
and what you're doing is you're,you're pushing the scene to,
levels of success or failureadding to it or taking away from
it, depending on thecircumstance.
So it's just, but doing it witha dice. So it's

Matthew (23:28):
So these are are these like Star Wars dice, Or should I
say, Genesis dice?

Frank (23:35):
You

Douglas (23:37):
let Paul let Paul jump in.

Matthew (23:39):
Paul, jump in. Other Paul.

Paul V (23:42):
The the the the idea behind the dice is similar to
what they did with the, StarWars, dice. It's like another
axi of, of success and failure.So it's not just get success and
failure. You get, like, partialyou get, like, so the the idea
of the dice is the theadditional narrative dice is, it

(24:04):
has on each of the 6 faces,you've got a a my a plus 4,
setback, plus 2 setback, andthen 2 dice with 222 sides with
nothing on it, and then 2 beinga, sort of like a marginal
success sort of thing. So theidea being is you can still fail
the dice, your your it's theactual check, but you get sort

(24:26):
of like a a side advantage.
So, like, the idea of you missthe guy but you destroy his
cover or you hit but you run outof bullets or something along
those lines basically. So thethe general idea of it is that
even if you get a setback,because you get plus 4, you're

(24:48):
more likely to succeed the skillrole. So or if you get a plus 2,
you're more likely to succeed toget the target number on the
main dice, basically, is theidea.

Douglas (25:00):
Okay. Plot dice.

Matthew (25:03):
Plot dice. Plot dice. And, Paul, what's your bit of
interesting news? Same Paul thistime or weird news.

Paul V (25:14):
Weird news. I I think it was a gaming company sending
Pinkertons around to a gamer tobeat him up, cajole him, and,
steal property his own propertyoff him. I think that's

Matthew (25:29):
Yes.

Paul V (25:29):
The weirdest thing that I've ever heard is never
expected to happen, basically,you know, in in in our industry.
And the viral

Matthew (25:38):
In a year of weird shit happening in 2024, that was one
of the weirdest things. Shall wemention the game company, or are
they gonna Yeah. Change around?

Paul V (25:47):
Wizard of the coast. Well, they might send the
Pinkertons round against usagain, but, you know, illegally.

Matthew (25:53):
And this was because he had,

Paul V (25:57):
He'd he'd he'd basically received the the distributors
sent out a box of Magic theGathering cars by accident
basically, to him. So it wastheir fault, but as far as he
he'd actually pre ordered andpaid for them, so they were his
property. So and then when thePinkertons went around, they

(26:18):
actually Pinkertons stole hisproperty, basically, after
basically saying that he wasgonna get, thrown in prison.

Douglas (26:28):
Yeah. I must add that also YouTube received a copy of
I think it was the DungeonMaster Master's Guide or the
Player Player's Handbook inadvance, with perm with
permission to show it, and thenreceived a strike, not from
YouTube, but from them, fromWizards of the Coast. And so,

(26:50):
there's a lot of kind ofmuddying going along from this
company. So but Yeah.

Matthew (26:56):
Andy, you, of course, Andy, B, you, of course,
mentioned that there have beenraids before, but it was the
other way around. It was a gamescompany getting raided before.
Do you wanna say a bit more?

Andy (27:08):
That's Steve Jackson Games back in the nineties when they
did scurrp Cyberpunk. And,someone suggested to the feds
that it was a handbook forhacking. And as a result, the, I
think it was the FBI broke intothe Steve Jackson warehouse and
factory and whatever. And, yeah,confiscated an awful lot of
stuff, and Steve Jackson had torecuperate that loss over a fair

(27:31):
bit of time, I think. And if youwanna find out what that all
that happened there, it'sactually, a large chunk of a
book called The Hacker Crackdownby Bruce Sterling.
It's about 2 or 3 chapters basedon it. So yeah.

Matthew (27:45):
And it also featured on the cover of Crisis Magazine, or
not that, but the story inspiredby that story where one of the
characters in the strip, 3rdWorld War, gets, arrested at an
airport for having a a weaponsguide to a role playing game or
something in in his backpack.

Andy (28:03):
Like that. Yeah.

Matthew (28:03):
And I have the original artwork for that cover on my
wall over there. Hello? I thinkas

Dave (28:10):
Like, Paul is wanting to

Matthew (28:11):
take a look at it. Way, Paul.

Paul W (28:14):
You're gonna just say, at that time, Peter, Bruce, and
I were writing stuff for SteveJackson Games, which never got
published because that bloodyraid.

Bruce (28:26):
Oh, my gosh. Really?

Dave (28:29):
I hadn't realized I hadn't realized we've got, like, an FBI
target in our midst, Paul. Okay.You have to be careful with that
one.

Paul W (28:35):
Yeah. I can't say much. No. Seriously, we were we were
writing some some stuff for forthem for for, and, it got
completely trashed because ofall of that because they had to
shut down. So I think they wereshut down handy for about a year
or 18 months

Andy (28:50):
or so. I I was just wondering if that why Baruzer
never comes on cam because he'son the FBI's most wanted list or
something.

Matthew (28:59):
Maybe. Maybe. Paul, since we're on you, what's your,
your weirdest bit of news fromthis last year, not from ancient
times when you were

Dave (29:10):
running out? From prison after being in prison since the
eighties, isn't it, Paul?

Paul W (29:18):
I mean, as far as role playing games are concerned, I
think it's been a pretty strangeyear with what's going on with
Watsy and and D and things. Andand that's I don't think that's
strange anymore. It's becomingthe norm, which is which is
really unfortunate. I I startedin 1978 playing DND, and it was
a a great role playing game andeverybody enjoyed it. But it's

(29:40):
been politicized more and moreand more.
And I think that's that's thething that that really annoys
me. It used to be a game foreverybody and now it's becoming
a game that's marginalizingitself by by virtue of the
rules. A few of you have seen medo this and and you know that in
the new players guide, they'rethey're putting in suggestions

(30:01):
for various things that peopleshould or shouldn't do. And and
and to be honest, they'rehilarious. If you've been role
playing for any period of time,you you know the boundaries of
your group, and what'sacceptable and not acceptable.
And I and I agree that if you'replaying at a convention as a

(30:24):
games master, you should becareful about what you're
presenting. And and and and youshould never really put anything
well, I think any games masterthat runs a a game, a scenario,
a convention with anythingthat's out of bounds, let's say,

(30:44):
is a complete idiot. You know,you've gotta you've gotta cater
for the the lowest denominatorand and not not think that
people are gonna immediatelyaccept your demonic presence or
whatever you wanna do. So Ithink that's the thing that
shocked me the most. It's it'sstill like, oh my god.

(31:07):
We've got to put all theseboundaries in place now.

Matthew (31:10):
I guess so. In their defense, given that they are, if
you like, the most likely firstgame for new gamers, maybe maybe
they do have a special role toplay in talking about the safety
tools and things. Because as yousaid, anybody who's been gaming

(31:31):
for some time, kinda andparticularly working with a
group, you know, they know whattheir group's limits and and and
fails are. But maybe a a a firstgame like that needs to make
them explicit in a way theyhadn't back in the seventies
when we were playing. Douglas,you wanna

Dave (31:46):
add something? Douglas.

Douglas (31:47):
Yeah. I I play with, younger kids. I I play between,
12 15 year olds, none of whichI've I've killed, just to make
that clear. And Yet. Yes.
Well, there's been times. Butthe kids, I don't like safety

(32:09):
tools. I've said it before. Ijust don't I don't like them for
the same arguments that Paul hasjust made. But at the same time,
we, we are completely differentsociety.
And, and a different way thatwe've grown up. And the younger,
the younger ones who are nowturning into, teens and adults

(32:30):
don't have, the filters, theability, the social
interactions, in my experience,to truly understand boundaries,
that are innate in a lot of usthat were back in the 70s, or
eighties, but now have,everything is questioned. And so

(32:53):
I think this is a largersocietal issue, and it's just
manifesting itself in what is apopular game, at this time.

Dave (33:05):
I think that's definitely a thing. I mean, if if you're if
you're if you're working inpublic or running a game in
public with people that youdon't know, then I think
absolutely it makes absolutesense to to like Paul said, to
go for the lowest commondenominator, to make sure that
what you're presenting isn'tgoing to offend anybody. But in
your own group, with people thatyou know and people that you've

(33:27):
played with a long time, Forexample, there's some of the
some of the characters that weplay in some of the games in in
mine and Matthew's group withAndy, our old friend Andy from
school and my brother. Iwouldn't dream of playing those
characters or those kind ofscenarios anywhere near a
convention for for multiplereasons. But, you know, I would
I would happily run Solomon Kaneat a convention, but, obviously,

(33:50):
it'd have to be different.
So I think it's very much a itwas probably always the way, I
think, but maybe they're I don'tknow. But maybe maybe people are
now much more open and willingto to say, I don't like that.
Whereas perhaps in the day, theymight have gone, oh, I don't
really like that internally. Andthen quite often, they would
have got through it and enjoyedthe game anyway, depending on

(34:13):
what the whatever it was theydidn't like.

Paul W (34:15):
I in banking, there's a there's a premise which is know
your client. And it's a it's abig thing about, you know,
understanding what they'redoing. And I think for a games
master that's massivelyimportant is understanding your
players and and what theirboundaries are and allowing you
to tailor a game for them, whichis a lot easier if you've got

(34:37):
your group and you know thepeople. And and he's
horrendously hard if you ifyou're doing it at convention,
which I always respect peoplelike Bruce, that that that that
run games at conventions. So,yeah, sorry.
That was my bit. I apologize.I've got the run.

Douglas (34:58):
I've had in in in Relden Ashes games, we often
play with different individuals,and, I've appreciated actually
being asked on his Discord whatwhat the what is what is a
nonstarter, one of which isviolence against, pets. And it

(35:23):
it is important to know. So Ithink that video aspect also
requires at least somethingalong the lines of the session
0.

Matthew (35:31):
Yeah. And I think actually that is interesting in
that, with more gaming onlinehappening, I've always said that
we we communicate face to facevery differently with micro
micro gestures that or mic microwords, micro syntax that you
haven't heard because you gotyour mic switched off or

(35:54):
whatever or gestures that thatpeople can't see because they
only look at you through aletterbox. So I think it's a lot
more important for them for, foronline as well. Jed, you're next
in my line. I'm gonna have toslightly reorder this.
But, Jed, what what's your mostinteresting or weirdest bit of
news?

Jed (36:15):
Most interesting this year, I think, was, Foundry's Ember
demos

Dave (36:24):
Mhmm.

Jed (36:25):
Which really was a case of them creating an RPG, with the
assumption it'll be on a VTT andfully integrated into the
systems of a VTT rather thanhaving a VTT that's trying to
painfully adapt a very analogtabletop game into the digital

(36:47):
space. And so just Mhmm. Theimplications of that and what
that could actually be possiblegoing forward kinda blew my mind
a little bit. And

Matthew (36:56):
part of me thinks that that's where Whatsy wants to
head with Wizards of the Coast.Do you think, do you think
that's true as well? Sorry.Whatsy wants to head with D and
D. Do you think that's true?
I mean because they have suchdemos of a a sort of VTT that
was that was very animated.Yeah. But I can't it's yeah.

Jed (37:20):
Yeah. It's like it's making a a virtual tabletop in the most
literal sense, you know, whereyou actually have virtual
miniatures that you move aroundand they behave like miniatures
and you throw dice. And it'slike, the whole thing is like a
Dungeon Forge but digital. Andwhat Amber was doing was more
saying, what is what could thepower of a computer do to make

(37:42):
the GM's job of simulating aworld so much easier by handling
all those in a more abstract,more thoughtful kind of way.

Dave (37:55):
It's very interesting because it it kind of one of the
things just to just to jump offJed's point now, and this is
gonna, like, probably lead youinto what I was gonna say a
little Well, but one of thethings I thought was interesting
was the, what seems to me anywayto be the sudden preponderance
of solo rules. And and I thinkalso what you're talking about,
you know, a game that'sspecifically designed as a game

(38:16):
to be run on a VTT rather thanat the table It's kind of in the
same sort of ballpark in that,you know, how much how much is
the game now moving into thedigital sphere as opposed to
staying around the table? Imean, for for people like me, I
I love gaming online, but Idon't love it as much as I love
gaming around the table. Butthen I've spent the last 40

(38:38):
years gaming around the table.For people, you know, of peak
generation who are a bit youngerthan most of us here, a lot of
those will have gained onlineprimarily rather than at a
table.
So it's so oh, are we dinosaurs?Am I a dinosaur? And we'll be
Yes.

Matthew (38:54):
I know you are.

Dave (38:55):
Well yeah. Well The

Matthew (38:57):
rest of us is fine.

Dave (38:58):
In but it's it's it's it's the kind of gamer that I am
gonna become a, in a aendangered species, you know, in
the next 10 or 20 years becauseso many people will be happier
or just as happy to play onlineor play alone with a solo role
if they don't get the otheroption.

Matthew (39:20):
Yeah. And that's so is that you done as well then,
Dave? Can I move on to Bruce?

Dave (39:25):
Yes. I'm done.

Bruce (39:30):
Try to think of something about the weird news. Actually,
I'm gonna pick up because it's aslightly on the similar topic.
But from the convention side,the interest of the RPG hobby
appearing at other conventions,other events. So I was actually

(39:53):
game mastering, music festivalin Velodrome. Mhmm.
There's a Comic Con as well. Soit's not just this hobby is
tightly within this area. It'sactually moving out to other
events. People want to play itnow. Unfortunately, it does mean

(40:14):
Dungeons and Dragons because ofthe popularity from the online
videos, from all that.
But that Colby in that game isexpanding and blending. I think
that's on the back end of poppop culture, and we're seeing
more and more, especially, otherevents. So it wouldn't be
surprising that if you ever see,like, Glastonbury, they've ever

(40:35):
done, they'll probably be at aweekend with RPGers and gamers
in there.

Matthew (40:45):
Mhmm. No. I think that is interesting, isn't it? And
we've seen it in TV and stuffthat we're a lot more accepted
now. We aren't the geeks who arelaughed at by the rugby team.
Are we, Dave?

Dave (40:59):
No. We're not anymore.

Matthew (41:00):
It is That's because Dave was in rugby team as well
as

Dave (41:03):
I was. I was. I didn't tell him I role played. They
ought to got the shit beaten outof me.

Matthew (41:11):
So hold on. Well, I'm just ticking along my list here.
Frank Frank, what's your mostweird or most interesting bit of
news?

Frank (41:22):
Right. Most weird was, Elon Musk's intervention to try
and save the

Matthew (41:27):
That's mine. That's mine.

Frank (41:30):
I'm not gonna say any more about that other than that
was Well

Dave (41:32):
done, Frank. I knew I knew somebody would beat Matthew to
it.

Frank (41:36):
And, most interesting maybe, is the most interesting,
I don't know, but it was ofinterest to me was, that foundry
who don't actually have a lot ofofficial systems for anybody,
now are getting official contentfor d and d. That for me was
really like, hey. What? Moment.It's the only one I could think

(41:58):
of.
There were probably otherthings, but I didn't know we had
to answer this question. So takeit away somebody else.

Matthew (42:05):
Well, Joe, I I just gotta follow-up on I mean, we
we've discussed Foundry already,and they they they seem to be
the octopus getting theirtentacles into everything, which
is good because it's ourfavorite system, obviously. Dave
and I are Luddites in thisregard, but, it's the only one
that we have commissioned Paulto create a content for. But

(42:28):
yeah. No. Just Elon Musk.
Elon fucking Musk. Threateningto buy Watsy because of, I don't
know, wokeness or something.There there is this thing. There
is this thing I have to comeback to. If there's one thing

(42:50):
you can say that is a realpositive, I think is a positive
for society, is that roleplaying has let people discover
themselves.
You know, if you're, at the verystart you know, and I can speak
to this. I have friends who,through role playing, you know,
explored their trans journeybefore they, transitioned or

(43:12):
whatever. So, you know, roleplaying has always been this
inclusive hobby. Even even backin the seventies when, or or the
eighties even when, by law, weweren't allowed to even talk
about it at school. You know,people were talking about their
sexuality and stuff like that inrole playing games.

(43:34):
So it's been a real importantpart of role playing. And now
suddenly that that's wokenshouldn't be allowed, and Elon
Musk is gonna buy Watsy to makesure it never happens again. I
don't think he is gonna buyWatsy, but but, you know, I I
love the fact that he thinks bysaying that he's gonna change

(43:57):
what Watsy do. Anyway, so that'sme. Frank, Dave, you're done.
Paul, I think we've had you,other Paul as well. Both the
Pauls double. Are we done onthis topic? Has anybody noticed
anything?

Dave (44:13):
No. No. We are done. We are done on this topic. We are
completely done on

Matthew (44:17):
this topic. Convinced I heard Andy Britt talking before,
but okay, Andy. Have a word.We're running out of time. I
knew

Andy (44:24):
I am very good. I was actually gonna say the obvious
one, which no one seems to havementioned, and I will frame this
in context of my experience ofthe 2 hosts here. In that I
remember years ago talking toDave and Matt, and Matt saying,
oh, I'd love to build a WildWest role playing game. And I
think this was back in thenineties. And I think if you
took that younger version ofMatt and Dave and told them that

(44:48):
20, 30 years on, they'd be doinga successful 30 grand plus
Kickstarter for a wild west roleplaying game, I think they would
have both told me where to getoff and said, no.
That wouldn't happen. Blah blahblah. Or at least maybe. I mean,
maybe they saw it in theirfutures and didn't say much. But
the the point is that I findthat absolutely stunning,

(45:09):
actually.
And I mean that because to have,I mean, all joking aside, I've
known Matt and Dave for years.And to have 2 people succeed at
the time that. And I hate you,man. But, anyway, you know, to
have 2 people that I've knownfor a long time, I have that

(45:31):
degree of success, I think, iscommendable. And, yeah, I think
that's yeah.
Okay, Bruce. Yeah.

Matthew (45:41):
I'll tell you what I'd like to say was weird. What I'd
like to say is weird is why didit take bloody 30 years?

Andy (45:47):
Well, yeah. Well, I mean, you know No.

Matthew (45:49):
I think I'm as surprised as you are, actually.

Dave (45:52):
Well, I

Andy (45:52):
am too. But but

Dave (45:53):
maybe surprising. Maybe if 30 years ago, I think you'd said
that to us, we'd have done it 30years ago.

Douglas (45:58):
I think that

Dave (45:59):
we not. It was Kickstarter wouldn't have been around for
about a year. No. No.

Andy (46:02):
I think we we did try and build games back way back in the
day, but I think we argued toomuch about what was gonna be in
them. We've argued

Matthew (46:10):
a lot. Haven't we, Dave?

Dave (46:11):
We've argued a few times, actually. We've we've we've
we've probably actually had ourworst arguments. Okay.

Andy (46:18):
This will get cut, but Dave and I have had more
arguments than probably anyoneelse on this chat right now. And
I'm like, oh,

Dave (46:25):
back in the day. Back in the day.

Andy (46:26):
Back in the day. Yeah.

Dave (46:28):
No. But, I mean, the thing was, we used to we used to make
a lot of game systems, or Icertainly did. But then we'd run
them, and, basically, all my socalled mates, like Andy and Matt
and the others, would just shitall over it. So it's like it's
like they're not they're not thenice No.

Andy (46:42):
I think it was constructive shitting, Dave. I
don't think they just changed.

Dave (46:45):
Back in the day, they weren't the nice guys that they
are now. They've changed a lot.So there was well, there was one
game, called Fields of Fire,which actually wasn't bad.

Andy (46:56):
It was a great game, Dave.

Dave (46:58):
But it had it had a couple of couple of slight errors in
it.

Andy (47:01):
So how

Matthew (47:01):
how long does it take to throw

Andy (47:02):
a grenade in Fields of Fire, Dave? Was it 2 rounds or
1? I I thought

Dave (47:07):
it was it was 2. It was only 2 if you got

Andy (47:09):
the initial blow up at the end of the round, though. So if
you threw it, it would blow upbefore you threw it.

Dave (47:14):
So so this is something

Matthew (47:15):
that happened

Dave (47:16):
when I was 18. 18, guys.

Matthew (47:19):
This is sporty year of view. 2024, not 1984.

Andy (47:24):
Anyway, my my point is still fans, but I think it's
impressive that you've got

Dave (47:31):
Thank you, Andy. I hope you've got the take your sense
of it. And I appreciate it verymuch.

Andy (47:36):
All joking in ancient rivalries and arguments overall
aside, I think it's, yeah, it'sa it's a big achievement. So
well done, lads.

Dave (47:43):
Thank you.

Matthew (47:44):
Yeah. It doesn't mean we're not gonna miss you out
next time as well though. Comeon.

Andy (47:49):
Anyway, where's my check?

Matthew (47:52):
There is no check. Okay. So next topic

Dave (48:01):
Where does the u zero engine go from here? That is our
next topic.

Matthew (48:04):
Doing the most exciting release then, Dave, which is
next in our running order.

Andy (48:13):
I have

Dave (48:13):
to be quick.

Douglas (48:14):
It took us 50 minutes just to get through, the first
question.

Andy (48:18):
Well, it's like like, 10 seconds a person then.

Matthew (48:21):
Yeah. Because this one can be really quick. Just name a
game you're most exciting, thething you're looking forward to
most in 2025, and we will startwith you, Noble.

Paul V (48:34):
Obviously, apart from Toto, which is obviously the
most most impressive, the oneI'm most excited for is Cosmere
role playing game, which is theBrandon Sanderson, role playing
game, which covers all hisworlds. So is they they're
covering both Mistborn andStormlight Archive, which I'm
really looking forward to.

Matthew (48:56):
Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Dave, go on.
Say it now.

Dave (49:03):
Well, tells the odd west for me, but Yeah. It's it's it's
it's an odd one because again, Iwon't linger on this too long.
But having been I was warnedabout getting involved as a as a
creator by Thomas and othersabout, you know, becoming the
Poacher becoming gamekeeper. Andyou get so, like, completely

(49:24):
flooded by stuff that you'reworking on. I haven't really had
time to look and see what'scoming next year to to to have
an opinion on this question.
It's

Matthew (49:33):
Except obviously for the research he does for World
of Gaming every 2 weeks. Youdon't just go for not surprised,
Dave. Well, I

Dave (49:40):
did quite a lot of beforeing and being surprised.
Yeah. But the thing I would sayis I've got so many games from
last year and previous yearsthat I haven't played that I
wanna play that actually nothaving something to look forward
to next year is probably a goodthing because it might mean I'll
play one of those other games.Done.

Matthew (49:56):
Brilliant. Andy Brick. No. Too late.

Andy (50:04):
Alright. No. No. No. No.
That's not good.

Dave (50:06):
Gotta be quicker than that, Andy.

Andy (50:08):
No. The bloody button wouldn't work. Anyway, no. So,
yeah. Obviously, Toto's becausehotel's Yeah.

Matthew (50:15):
Where it's

Andy (50:16):
gotta be

Matthew (50:16):
I mean, I know we said everybody's gotta say Toto, but
you don't all have to say Toto.

Andy (50:20):
Well, I'm still waiting on a check. No. Actually, I'm
waiting for 2 things fixed here.I'm waiting

Matthew (50:24):
for Mate, you didn't back Toto, so I don't know what
you're waiting for.

Andy (50:30):
So I'll get it a retail. Oh, it's, Detonction version 2.
I'm I'm

Matthew (50:35):
Yeah. Yeah.

Andy (50:36):
Addition of that. I think it will be very, very good. And
having seen the cover up for itwith the Monad edition and
things, it's something it'sdefinitely something I want. And
the other thing I'm lookingforward to is hopefully the next
part of the Splenite 2000rebooted campaign, which I'm
severely hoping will be based onRuins of Warfall, because that
would be logical. But, they maydo going home or something else

(50:57):
instead, so we'll see.

Matthew (50:59):
I'm just coming back to desanction. I just wanna point
out the shit that Alien got thisyear for having a second
edition, only 5 years into itslifetime. Desanction.

Andy (51:11):
Is 2, I think?

Matthew (51:13):
2 years old, and nobody's giving a crap about
having a second edition.

Andy (51:17):
But to be fair, it's now going to be wrapped into the the
umbrella of Sanction. So it'skind of evolved differently to
Alien.

Dave (51:27):
So it's desanction evolved, is it? Okay. Rather
than Alien evolved.

Andy (51:31):
That's right, Dave. Yeah.

Dave (51:32):
Cool.

Frank (51:33):
Maybe the sanctioned evolved. No.

Andy (51:36):
But it is it is a different thing, really. So

Matthew (51:41):
a nice intervention there, Frank. But what is your
most looked forward to thing in2025?

Frank (51:47):
Probably, I'm gonna say 2, but I'm gonna make it brief
again. Hexen in the Englishversion. Really looking forward
to that. Hexen, I've got it allhere, but I can't play with you
guys because you're too lazy toread German stuff. And the other
one

Dave (52:00):
Too lazy to learn German first and then read German
stuff.

Frank (52:03):
After having played and run a favorite or played one of
this year, actually, RepliconRebellion. I'm really looking
forward to that.

Matthew (52:14):
Bruce?

Bruce (52:17):
Well, that that makes it quite challenging because I was
gonna say Replicon Rebellion.

Matthew (52:23):
You can say the same thing. You can say the same
thing.

Bruce (52:27):
Yeah. And as as well, because I've been running deals
with the old west. Definitely,we're excited to see that in
this final.

Paul V (52:37):
Cool. Cool.

Matthew (52:38):
Cool. Cool. Paul. Not Paul Venner. Paul.
That's you, Paul. You.

Paul W (52:47):
Oh, me. Alright. Sorry. Right. So a couple, anything by
Craig Duffy.

Dave (52:54):
There you go. Good call. A fantastic That is a

Matthew (52:57):
good call.

Paul W (52:59):
Yeah. Love it. I love everything he's done. Secondly,
Space 1999, I think it's eithergonna be absolutely terrific or,
not so good.

Matthew (53:13):
Not an

Dave (53:13):
awful partnership.

Paul W (53:15):
I'm not. I I'm I'm I'm sorry, but I'm not a fan of a
lot of the systems by Wyndifius.That said, I got Dreams and
Machines, and my son actuallybought me the 2 books for for
Christmas, and and it looks likea wonderful system. But, yeah,
Space 1999 and, of course, Talesof the Old West because I don't

(53:36):
wanna get banned.

Dave (53:38):
Yeah. Actually won't get back because I I I write a fair
chunk of Dreams and Machine, soI hope you like it.

Paul W (53:45):
Well, that was the bit I didn't like, actually.

Dave (53:49):
Well, fuck off then, Paul. Off you go.

Matthew (53:53):
Jed, what about you?

Jed (53:57):
Well, start off, of course, with Tales of the Old West, per
rigor. The other one I would sayis Vasen Carpathia.

Dave (54:10):
Okay. Yeah.

Jed (54:11):
I'm very excited with expanding the Vaasen world and,
seeing if that could be turnedinto, like, a more, European
wide campaign or something.

Matthew (54:22):
Oh, yes. Yes. Great idea. Douglas?

Douglas (54:29):
Yeah. I'm really looking forward to the Broken
Empires. The Broken Empires isby a solo role player who's also
a voice actor, and Trevor Duvallis his name, and, Evil Baby
Games is, his publishingcompany. It's a lot of old
school, rules that have beengrabbed together. I'm really

(54:53):
looking forward to it because heis a contemporary of most of us,
and, and so I think thedirection that he's, bringing
the game, he calls it sim lite,kinda jingo y, but it's
simulation, but it's, chunkyenough.
And so I'm really lookingforward to that. I'm looking

(55:14):
forward to it more than Ithought. With f but with with
fantasy or with, for freeleague, okay, for free league
games, I think that we've reallymissed out on talking about
Coriolis, because I am really onthe fence about Coriolis, and
I'm worried about the directionof that world. But I think

(55:36):
Carpathia is going to just gohigh, high, high. I think it's
gonna be awesome.
It will bring back Vassen, whichis just a a beautiful system.

Matthew (55:48):
And finally, Pete.

Pete (55:52):
Other than, the obligatory tales of the old west mentioned

Matthew (55:56):
Well done.

Pete (55:58):
Mythic battles Ragnarok. I enjoyed playtesting it. Yeah. I
think I think it's different. Ithink it looks really good, and
I had tremendous fun,playtesting it.
That that's that's all I've gotto say about it, really. That's

(56:19):
what I'm looking

Paul V (56:21):
forward to.

Matthew (56:22):
Cool. Another plug for you there, Dave, in mythic
battles Ragnarok.

Dave (56:28):
Okay. Cool.

Matthew (56:30):
Being for Pete. Now, yes. So let's quickly we you
brought up, Douglas, the, yourpolite disappointment over
Corvio List of Great Dark. Solet's just have a quick
runaround again of, the futurefor the year zero engine. Dave,

(56:56):
did you wanna start?

Dave (57:02):
Yeah. So I think I think my comment was gonna be around,
the the mechanics of the 2 dicesystem for year 0. Not having
played it not having played itin twilight 2000, I was, I I
guess, a bit, what's the word? Iwas a bit snobbish about it, I
think. It's a bit oh, it can'tbe as good as, as the dice pool

(57:25):
system.
The dice pool system works sowell. Having played Blade
Runner, it works it works reallywell. So, I think, you know, the
year zero I mean, we couldbroaden the question. I mean,
although that might broaden ittoo much. I mean, what we're
talking about the year zeroengine, which has got 2
iterants.
Free league obviously do othergames with other systems, and

(57:46):
not just the year zero engines.So there is a question maybe
more broadly about where doesFree League take their what
they're doing? Does the yearzero engine have legs? It gets
used a lot. Obviously, we'rejust producing a game that uses
the year zero engine.
I think I would quite like tosee or maybe explore how the 2

(58:07):
dice version could be takenforward in a different way. I
think the dice pool works sowell, and there's been so many
different variants of it now,that maybe we ought to be
thinking about what can we dowith the other version of the
year zero engine rather than thedice pool in the future.

Matthew (58:24):
Bruce, I think you might have thoughts on that.

Bruce (58:30):
The step though, I think it's it's gonna be certainly
something, but I think it'sstill gonna be quite tight. What
I think might be evolved orcertainly we might see more of
is because we've already seenthem walking dead. It's the
threat with walkers for thedial. Mhmm. And that style is

(58:53):
gonna be used because we'vealready seen a preview of it in
Replicate Rebellion, which isforthcoming.
And I wouldn't be surprised ifwe see something similar for a
threat for Alien Evolved becauseI think that's something a way
of tracking or showing theplayers. I'm just gonna turn the
dial up just to show you you'renow at this number. There's

(59:17):
something obviously going oninto it. I think that's gonna be
another bit into the year zeroengine side from it.

Dave (59:26):
I think that's a really interesting comment because I I
think the one thing thatmechanically doesn't work
terribly well in The WalkingDead is the threat. I think
mechanically, it doesn't workvery well. I think at the table,
having the dial there and thenturning it up as a GM does work
as a psychological thing for thegroup. But actually,
mechanically, in The WalkingDead, it's it's shit. So why

(59:51):
they've got it?
I don't like it

Matthew (59:52):
at all. Tell us what you really think, Dave.

Dave (59:54):
I just I just think they've got the levels wrong and
it it it escalates way too

Douglas (59:59):
quickly. Escalates way too quickly. Yeah. But it's a
great game. The kids love it.

Dave (01:00:06):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean I mean, do you know Bruce in Blade
Runner or or Frank or anybodyelse who's looked into rep
rebellion, how are they gonnause that? Do you know?

Bruce (01:00:17):
It's gonna be used for because the way I I envision
Blade Runner, the core book withyou being the LEPT Blade Runner
unit, you're basically thehunters. And Replicant
Rebellion, you're effectivelythe replicants on the ground.

Dave (01:00:37):
After you. Yeah.

Bruce (01:00:38):
Yeah. You are the prey. That's how I envision Blade
Runner.

Frank (01:00:42):
I believe there's a heat meter they're gonna use. Yeah.
Essentially, so if you're doinghigh profile things and you get
noticed, there's like a heatmeter.

Dave (01:00:50):
Ah, okay. Yeah.

Frank (01:00:51):
Noticed by the authorities.

Bruce (01:00:53):
Yeah. If you blow up stuff

Dave (01:00:54):
So the more you do, the more likely you are gonna get
colored. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.Again, I think I think the
principle is great, but in inWalking Dead, as you said, it it
escalates way too quickly on ascale of 0 to 6 or 1 to 6.
It escalates by 3, and itdoesn't really go anywhere else
other than that. But, if yeah. Ithink psychologically, it has a

(01:01:15):
great effect.

Matthew (01:01:20):
And, Douglas, do you want to talk a little bit you
you've made some comments in thechat, I noticed, on, it's not
the game. It's the, it's theworld you're not enjoying so
much in The Great Dark. I justwanna say, you know, one of the
interesting evolutions of the, 0engine is getting rid of skills,

(01:01:44):
just having attributes andtalents. But what are your
thoughts on the mechanics of thegreat dark?

Douglas (01:01:54):
I I think that I think that they're the evolution of,
of the traditional, year zeroengine dice system. Mhmm. Very
different from the 2 dice bladerunner, type of implementation.

(01:02:16):
It's the world, and the distancebetween, Coriolis

Matthew (01:02:25):
Where we were in the 3rd horizon, do you mean?

Douglas (01:02:27):
In the 3rd horizon to this kind of future, more
exploring, more JacquesCousteau, let's go and and delve
deep. It just seems like adifferent game, a different
genre, but I think the mechanicsare the way that they're going

(01:02:52):
to move forward because so manygames now are skill based. So
but I'm I'm just I'm still onthe fence whether or not I'm
gonna love it. I backed it. Ibacked it to the teeth, but I'm
apprehensive looking at it.
And I and I don't know. I'mreally weird. I have this issue
with the bird again. Like, whyare you imposing this on us with

(01:03:17):
the canary in the coal mine? Itit it seems I don't know.
It it seems forced upon us. ButI understand why because you're
doing a delve. It just it irksme for some reason. I don't know
why.

Dave (01:03:35):
I do wonder where the so I go, go on Paul and Paul Paul
Watson had his hand up first, Ithink. Go there and then and
then the other Paul before me.

Paul W (01:03:43):
Really quick. The thing that attracted me, Coriolis, was
the the world and theenvironment, and I don't get
that from the great dark. Imean, I I like like Douglas, I I
I backed it, but I just don'tget that world. The the world in
Coriolis is absolutelyfantastic. It's years years

(01:04:06):
years worth of playing if youdon't follow the the campaign.

Dave (01:04:11):
Yeah.

Paul V (01:04:13):
Well, I'm the same. I did not back well, I canceled my
back back backing of, Curiousthe Great Dark because it was
just I think it's endemic with 3league is they like narrow
focused games now. They want anarrow focused game where I like

(01:04:37):
games with thousands of seeds ofideas, and you can just run with
in any direction, which is whatCoriolis The Third Horizon was.
Yeah. It was brilliant.
And there's just so many thingsI just do not like in the great

(01:05:00):
dark or what they did, which isit would it I just can't I I
know I mean, I I I love Correiaso much, and I'm I I shocked
myself when I canceled my my mymy my, my backing of it.

Dave (01:05:15):
I think it's interesting. I haven't looked at the, at the
PDF or anything, so I'm I'm I'mtalking really from the basis of
not much knowledge. But the thethe the idea that skills are
replaced with talents, it justseems seems to me simply to be
leading us back to the day whereyou've got hundreds of skills.

Matthew (01:05:32):
Yeah. It's it's nice. If you

Dave (01:05:34):
if you need a talent, which is basically gonna replace
a skill, you end up needing alot more of them because talents
tend to be quite specific. Soyou end up actually back in the
day with loads and loads ofskills, which is one of the
great things step. Which we'vegot away from. Yeah. Exactly.

Andy (01:05:49):
Because

Paul V (01:05:49):
that was the that's every year. Okay. Isn't it? The
whole year, it's it's like alimited skill list. So you you
you know, 12 or 16 skills, andthat's it.
That's all you need. And they'vejust moved away from that. I
think it's a huge backward step.

Dave (01:06:06):
I think that Frank, but, you know, you've just commented
in the text. Did you wanna justjust make that comment? Because
that that is a good commentthough. That is a good thing.

Andy (01:06:14):
I

Frank (01:06:14):
think you need to keep in mind that we have seen an alpha
and the beta has just been out,I think, a couple of days ago
for or a week ago for the greatdark.

Matthew (01:06:20):
And not even a complete beta. Actually, it hasn't even
matched. Beta is not in it,

Frank (01:06:25):
for example. Don't bury it before it's been born.

Dave (01:06:28):
No. That's a good comment.

Frank (01:06:29):
Yeah. We had our 4 d scan or whatever. That was about it.
We don't know anything more thanthat. So I definitely I'm I'm
slightly underwhelmed by whatI've seen so far, but it doesn't
mean that it's not gonna begood.
And I appreciate that theauthors are trying to get to the
feel of what they started withCoriolis. So if you have read
the the rim would reach,scenario setting, so source book

(01:06:52):
from ancient Coriolis firstedition,

Matthew (01:06:55):
Well, I would need it, but it would need to be
translated into English, Frank.Oh, but you translated it.

Frank (01:07:01):
And you can never Sorry. Be what you want. So

Dave (01:07:05):
No. I I I think I think I the link

Matthew (01:07:07):
in the show notes.

Dave (01:07:08):
I think there's there's definitely I think the
disappointment of realizing thatthat the new Coriolis game
wasn't building directly on theold Coriolis game and a lot of
the old stuff that we love somuch was being ditched. I think
that disappointment has coloredkind of my anticipation or
excitement about the game. Ididn't I I did back it. I

(01:07:29):
haven't canceled my back, so I'mstill gonna get it and we'll
give it a good read when I getit in hardback. Yeah.
Isn't it? Yeah.

Douglas (01:07:36):
Oh, sorry, Dave. I didn't mean to interrupt, but
isn't it odd that the criticismsfor Dungeons and Dragons,
whatever this edition is calledthis year, is it hasn't changed
enough for a lot of, critics.It's still the same old, and yet
here we are, and myself inparticular criticizing the great

(01:08:00):
dark, for changing too much. Andand are we looking for a happy
medium of enough change and whatis enough change and what isn't?
And so it's just it's it's it'sfascinating to see the way the
community everybody'sexpectations are so so very

(01:08:21):
different and everybody seems tohave, educated opinions as
opposed to the eighties ninetieswhere we were just learning
about, the hobby.

Frank (01:08:33):
A brief parallel. In Germany, there's a the oldest
German language role playinggame is called Midgar, and it
has been run by the same couple,basically, from 1st edition 1981
or something all the way to thisyear. 5 editions are out. And
the 6th one, they handed off toanother publisher, and they
basically are reinventing it. Sothey create an a a parallel

(01:08:55):
world which split up from theother one, like, 2, 2 and a half
1000 years ago.
So they get rid of all the oldsetting stuff, and they actually
kept the core of the old rules.But for instance, they got rid
of attributes. So they kept,talents and skills, if you like,
but they got rid of attributes.That was also quite interesting
to see. But there's a lot of,discussion about, oh, no.

(01:09:18):
What have they done? I love myold world, and it was so much
for development. I want to keepit. But it was also an entrance
hurdle for new players coming.Just couldn't get the head
around all this stuff that hasgone on.
To be honest, if you pick upCoriolis and you read the book
and then you say, I'm gonna runthe campaign, you might as well
not have read all the campaignsetting because by the end of

(01:09:39):
the campaign sorry. The the thecore rule book, I mean, the
world's stuff gets thrown away.

Dave (01:09:44):
Yeah. So

Andy (01:09:45):
there's a precedent for where this guy in the in the
previous companies. I'm I'mgonna make the comparison
between Carrier, the Great Dog,and Trevor T and E because it is
the same sort of thing to me.It's changing the rule set.

Matthew (01:09:59):
She's traveled in the new era.

Andy (01:10:02):
Yeah. It was. And it was changing the rule set. It was
changing the background, and itwas universally panned by
traveler fans at the time. Andthen it sort of gained in
popularity, and people began tolike it, and then GDW went under
anyway.
But it it feels to me similar.It's like this, you know, I

(01:10:23):
think it's this, this desire tochange things and tweak things
continuously that people have,and the desire to, okay, well,
we've done the 3rd horizon,that's boring. Let's go and do
something else now. You know.And also, I think there's a
purely cynical aspect that, youknow, they want to keep selling

(01:10:45):
books.
And the only way they sell booksis by doing different content.

Matthew (01:10:49):
Yeah. New stuff.

Andy (01:10:50):
You know, I mean, it's it's the same argument, isn't
it? It's always been, you knowand, yes, Douglas and Bruce, if
you want to pan second edition,please thank you. Feel free. I I
haven't even seen anything otherthan the cover. So

Matthew (01:11:04):
Hold on, Paul. I just wanna give one one word to Jed
on traveler. Jed. Traveler, yesor no?

Jed (01:11:17):
Sorry. Don't understand the question. No. What?

Matthew (01:11:20):
I and so, our our traveler nerd here, Andy, has
been banging on about how goodTraveler is, And I thought I
might

Bruce (01:11:28):
come through a great opinion

Matthew (01:11:30):
from for 40 years from you, Jed. So I'm gonna proceed
to give a comment.

Jed (01:11:35):
So Traveler was the first game I bought with my own money.
I remember I walked to thebookstore 1 August and picked up
the, I think, the deluxe editionbox set and then never actually
was able to run it. And it justkind of, like, disappeared.

(01:11:55):
Never could get my friends to,like, put down their sword and
pick up their cutlass. And sothis year, after the election,
my gaming group decided we didwanna keep doing, you know,
like, Delta Green or anythingkind of, like, modern or grim.
Instead, they wanted to get intoa rocket ship and go off into
space. And so that's what we'vebeen doing is figuring out the

(01:12:19):
the mongoose traveler rules andkinda coming up with a goofy,
cowboy bebop style version of atraveler campaign.

Dave (01:12:30):
And the 2 d

Jed (01:12:30):
3 d 6 system is rock solid, though.

Andy (01:12:33):
That's a

Matthew (01:12:34):
Isn't it just isn't it?

Douglas (01:12:35):
Yeah. That's an awesome observation that that because
I'm in Canada. You're in theStates. But around the world,
we're we're we're there's a lotof shit going on. Do you think
that that's gonna affect the waypeople play games, and are they
going to move away from playingdarker games to to playing more

(01:12:57):
humorous games?

Andy (01:12:58):
It's already happened, hasn't it? Because, I mean,
Twilight 2000, for a long time,I was very wary about doing
anything with it, thanks to thesituation in Ukraine.

Bruce (01:13:07):
Mhmm. I

Andy (01:13:07):
mean, in twilight 2000, the bad guys are effectively
Ukrainians. So it's, you know,it's very hard to to play a game
where you're gleefully shootingdown Ukrainians as members of
the US forces or whatever, whenin the real world, the Russians
are doing exactly the same. Youknow, it's very hard to do. In
the end, I mean, the thecompromise that I came up with

(01:13:29):
was to set the game somewhereelse in the world because I
couldn't use that area as muchas I wanted to because that's
where Twilight's always beenset. It's the the sort of east
west border.
So yeah.

Dave (01:13:42):
Yeah.

Andy (01:13:43):
It's difficult, I think. So, yeah, I think there has been
the the the situation in theworld does reflect in the world
of gaming and vice versa. Idon't think you can separate
them really because people livein both. So there you go.

Matthew (01:13:54):
Very, just a quick quick word from you about
something else, in the future ofyear 0. Do you want to quickly
say what you think?

Bruce (01:14:05):
Yeah. I think we're gonna see more miniature lines because
we saw mutant zone Boris comeout for it.

Andy (01:14:13):
Yeah.

Bruce (01:14:14):
We know that alien evolved is gonna have rules for
your skirmish game.Theoretically, I'm I'm joking
about this one, but I know inthe asset pack in blade runner,
you can get standees for it. Soyou could theoretically do that
one, but I think that'll be avery short game when you go in
the critical table for that.

Andy (01:14:34):
Mhmm. Yeah.

Matthew (01:14:37):
Mate, Miniatures, who can tell what the future will
hold? It's been a real pleasure,having everybody here talking
with us. There is just one thingwe're gonna do. What we'd like
is for, when Dave and I signoff, for everybody to say, may

(01:14:58):
the darkness bless youradventures. Okay?
It's gonna be and you're gonnado more

Dave (01:15:06):
things as soon

Matthew (01:15:07):
as I know.

Dave (01:15:07):
Are you are you are you changing the sign offline?

Bruce (01:15:10):
Darkness? Well,

Matthew (01:15:11):
it's icons. It is icons. You're right. No. No.
I'm fitting cheap in gosh.

Andy (01:15:21):
Okay. When when that's taken

Dave (01:15:23):
May may may you murder more children in your

Douglas (01:15:27):
Oh, I'm so regretting.

Andy (01:15:31):
I I can sincerely hope that no one in your parish or
whatever Douglas ever watchesthis or listens to it.

Douglas (01:15:37):
I really hope not.

Dave (01:15:40):
Right. So the the usual sign off, may the icons bless
your adventures. Yeah? We'reready? All on 3.

Andy (01:15:49):
123. May I

Paul V (01:15:53):
bless your adventures.

Dave (01:15:57):
You have been listening to the Effect podcast presented by
Fiction Suit and the RPG Gods.Music stars on a black sea used
with permission of Free LeaguePublishing.