Back to the Dark

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matthew (00:39):
Hello, and welcome to episode 261 of Effect, Back to
the Dark. My name's Matthew.

Dave (00:49):
And I'm Dave. And as the title suggests, we have got a
bit of Coriolis content to talkabout later on, where I have
been looking at the the corebook for Coriolis of the Great
Dark, and I've come up with afew, what should we say,

Matthew (01:05):
fundamental Interesting observations.

Dave (01:07):
Fundamental questions that I wanted to throw out there. So
that's what we've got later onas our main feature, but
obviously before that, we wedon't have any new patrons to to
shout out to today, butobviously, thank you to all of
our patrons, past and presentanyway, because we can't do what
we do without your help. We'vegot the world of gaming. A few

(01:31):
little things to talk aboutthere, a couple of controversial
things potentially. And thenwe've got a little bit about Old
West News.
We've some updates to give youthere, but I think we said a few
weeks ago we weren't going to doOld West News as a feature
anymore, but here it is anywayin the running order. So we'll

Matthew (01:47):
Well, we won't do it as a regular feature.

Dave (01:49):
But keep

Matthew (01:50):
that got stuff to talk about.

Dave (01:51):
I know. We'll keep that short and sweet. But yeah. So
that's our that's that's that'swhat we've got lined up for you
coming on today.

Matthew (01:59):
Yeah. And shall we kick off with the world of gaming
then?

Dave (02:03):
Yes. Let's do that.

Matthew (02:07):
So first of all, I want to talk about the punching a
Republican affair.

Dave (02:12):
Mhmm. Yes.

Matthew (02:14):
So this is an article that I think appeared first of
all well, to me, it appearedfirst of all all over blue sky,
and it wasn't very clear whatanybody was talking about. So it
required a little bit ofdetective work. And it was an
article from Rascal magazinewherein a publisher and a

(02:35):
respected independent publisher,Level Nine Games, had had one of
their products removed fromdrive thru RPG because in this
overtly it was it's a kind ofStar Wars with the file filing
with the suit suit

Dave (02:55):
numbers filed off.

Matthew (02:56):
Yeah. Filed off. That's the word I'm trying to say.
Yeah. And I I also wonder Ihaven't looked at it very
closely, but I wonder whether itwas released recently, because
of the whole and or thing, whichis the most, shall we say,
reflective of current timesversion of Star Wars that there
has ever been.
You've not watched it yet, haveyou?

Dave (03:16):
No. I haven't seen any of it yet. I need to because it's
on Disney, isn't it? Yeah. Ineed I need to get Disney for a
month.
And

Matthew (03:23):
You need to get Disney for a month and watch Yeah. And
probably not watch Ironheart.

Dave (03:28):
I'm not gonna watch Ironheart. No. There's not a lot
else that really appeals. Justwatched just watched the second
series of Squid Game, which isvery good, with the exception of
Oh, yes. The ridiculous, godawful, bloody foreshadowing of
the the American version that'scurrently in the works, where at
the end, you have Kate Blanchettdoing the throwing the thing on

(03:50):
the floor game with somebodyright at the end.
Anyway, don't get me started.We're talking about something
else, we? So But, yeah, that'llbe shit Yeah. I I fully expect.
But the second season of theKorean Squid Game is is
excellent.

Matthew (04:03):
And

Dave (04:03):
considering Squid Game is really just like one idea, they
they did pretty well to turninto two seasons, but it
wouldn't make three, I don'tthink.

Matthew (04:14):
Right. But then they could do it all over again, but
with Americans, and then andthen that would make a

Dave (04:19):
Which I suspect is kind of what they're doing. And they've
always got Clint Bartschipsigned up for it. So they're
spending money on on theiracting talent anyway.

Matthew (04:29):
Anyway, that's not what we're talking about.

Dave (04:30):
That's not what we're talking about.

Matthew (04:31):
About a a a game with some space Nazis called the
republic as opposed to theempire. And in the forward to
this game, the republic'sspelled with a k. It's
important. So it's obviouslynothing to do with our current

(04:52):
Republicans. Yeah.
But it's in the forward theystate that they call it
Republicans so that players canenjoy saying, I punched the
Republican in the face. And Iimagine that that triggered a
bunch of republican fans of ofgaming, and complaints were made

(05:18):
to drive through RPG about thisbeing some form of hate speech.
And Drive Thru RPG went to themand said, look. The game is
fine. You you can punch as manyRepublicans as you want in the
face in the game.
Yeah. But you can't be soobvious as to say we're talking
about publishing Republicans inthe face in the forward. Yeah.

(05:39):
Do you wanna remove the forward,and then we can sell the game?
And and level nine thought,well, on balance of
probabilities, we'll probablyget more publicity if we if we
don't remove the forward.

Dave (05:50):
If we stand our ground. Yeah.

Matthew (05:52):
And we probably sell these games on Itch anyway. So
check it out on Itch. We'll I'lldig it. I'll I hate Itch because
it's so hard to find anything,but I I I may well look for a
link to put in the show notes.And so they said, no.
We'll we'll we'll draw the gamefrom sale. We're not letting you
edit the game. And what do youthink about that story, what I

(06:13):
have just told Dave?

Dave (06:17):
There's quite a lot of things, I think, actually. I
regret when people use ourgaming approach to make overtly
political comments, one. I thinkwe should try and keep it out of
that. This is a you know, ourour industry, our our hobby is a
is a way of escaping all thatkind of shit, and we shouldn't

(06:38):
be God.

Matthew (06:40):
Using Sound like a fucking Republican, Dave.

Dave (06:42):
No. But no. Well, well, I think that

Matthew (06:44):
All games, sir. All games are political.

Dave (06:46):
Well, they are, but, I mean, you know, but you I I
regret the the the increase inthe use of entertainment media
to to make a political point,because I think it it it
devalues the the point of that,for me, anyway, the point of
that media. If you wanna makethese points, go ahead go ahead

(07:07):
and do it, by all means. And Ifully support people who want to
make those make those protestsand all the rest of it.
Absolutely.

Matthew (07:14):
Point you get you, Dostoyevsky, with your crime and
punishment.

Dave (07:17):
But but I I I I I kind of just regret that people feel
they need to to put that intointo media that should be an
escape from all that shit ratherthan a platform for talking
about it. I also think that youshouldn't really be advocating
real world violence in anysense. Even if even if they just

(07:40):
saying, oh, I get to say thatI've done that, and I can
fantasize that I've done thatbecause I'd never really do that
in real life. You know, there'sa lot of fucking wingnuts out
there who might go and dosomething stupid. So I think
Mhmm.
Advocating that kind of thing,again, in this kind of medium is
is a mistake. From also fromwhat you from what you said
there, it's interesting to thinkit hadn't really occurred to me

(08:01):
that that possibly this is justa bit of a stunt by level nine.
And and as you're saying there,they're going, well, we'll get
more publicity and we'll getmore sales if we still stand our
ground rather than it actuallybeing some kind of principled
stand that they are, in my view,foolishly putting into their
game. But, you know, it might bea principled stand that that

(08:22):
they've got against against thecurrent political situation in
The US. Although, having saidthat, they shouldn't be
advocating violence at anypoint, you know.
Peaceful protest, yes. Dissent,yes. Civil disobedience, Yes.
Violence. No.
So I think that's kind of whereI I I come from in that. I think

(08:44):
it just it just saddens me thatthat that they they've chosen to
use their game as a vehicle forfor this kind of message.

Matthew (08:54):
Yeah. I'm not sure I agree with you entirely, because
there's a lot of games out therethat, you know, that are just
used as vehicles to getpolitical points across and
general media, and it has beenever since day one, both Tory
and left wing points.

Dave (09:08):
I'm not I'm not I'm not saying it isn't out there. I'm
saying that that we shouldn't,you know, you shouldn't use
entertainment media to do that.If you've got a serious point,
get out there and seriouslyprotest it.

Matthew (09:18):
Yeah. You may not enjoy Andor then. But anyway, moving

Dave (09:26):
See, see, I don't see, I don't I don't mind something
that is reflecting something ina fantasy world. You know, if
you're reflecting the state ofbecause a lot of, you know, you
know, all media is art and, youknow, art holds up a mirror to
reality and all the rest of it.That's face. You're reflecting
it in an interesting story, butjust don't turn it into a

Matthew (09:46):
Well, I think this is my actual There's nothing wrong
with having Republicans as thebad guys in a No. Science
fiction world. I think I thinkit frankly is just a bit crass
to say, oh, and do you get thepoint? When we're calling them
Republicans, we actually kind ofmean the Republicans in in our

(10:07):
two party system, if we'reAmerican. Yeah.
For a start, you know, they'rethey're only speaking actually
to that part of their audiencewho are American and and
suffering under Republicanregime at the moment. They're
not speaking to the rest of theworld where, you know,
Republican means all sorts ofdifferent things, as does
Democrat and Liberal and allthat sort of stuff.

Dave (10:25):
Or who also may well be suffering under kind of almost
exactly the kind of same kind ofregime, but just not called
Republican regime in that, youknow

Matthew (10:33):
Exactly. Exactly the point I was getting to. Yeah.
Exactly. So so, you know, it ityes.
It's a great joke within thegame. I would very much enjoy
saying I punched a Republican inthe face. Were you GMing me and
I was playing that game?However, to actually put it in

(10:53):
the fore just felt me like, oh.Well, for a side, it's almost
talking to Danley.
Talk you know, not respectingyour audience enough to get the
joke without you saying reallyclearly, this is what we're
talking about is my is is mything. But I think also, I I
have no problem with themremoving their game and making a
fuss about it. I slightly feelthat the innocent victim in this

(11:21):
party are neither level nine northe Republicans, but poor old
Joyful RPG that are kind ofgoated with having to make a
various decision with, you know,somebody somebody complained
about the content of the game. Idon't imagine that it would have
happened if a bunch of peoplehadn't complained. I can quite
believe that a bunch of rightwing snowflakes, because it does

(11:42):
always seem to be the right wingwho are the snowflakes despite
the fact that they invented theterm for us progressives, you
know, got together and did a bitof a letter writing, well, email
writing campaign.

Dave (11:55):
Is that what it was? It was a it was a

Matthew (11:57):
I'm pretty sure that there were, you know, one or
more. Wasn't

Dave (12:01):
some internal drive through thing that that that
muted it. Found it. Yeah. Okay.

Matthew (12:06):
Yeah. I I'm not I I couldn't swear to that on my
limited reading, but there I Iimagine some people complained.
A bit of a storm in a teacup, Ithink, probably successfully
sold a few more games to levelnine. So, woo hoo for them, I
guess.

Dave (12:23):
As I say, I wonder I wonder if, you know, I mean,
without like I say, without thecontroversy, most people would
never have heard of that game.

Matthew (12:32):
Yeah. And now now we've all heard of that game, haven't
we? Yeah. We're talking about itnow, so we are just victims of
the media manipulation. Shall wemove swiftly on to something
where we can speak to othervictims?
Yeah.

Dave (12:48):
Yeah. Go on then. Yeah. Let's let's move on to
something.

Matthew (12:52):
So this is and here's an interesting thing. You know,
we are we we've had a lot ofpeople in in our US customer
base going, oh, we'd love tohave to go down and buy your
game at the shop. Or, you know,we we backed it, but our friends
wanna get a copy too. We willtalk about our own retail and
the fact you can order it fromus later on in this very

(13:15):
episode. But but we've we'vebeen looking in at distribution.
It's complex. It costs more inThe US than it costs here in
Blighty, which is to say whenyou pay for the book, we get a

(13:35):
smaller proportion of the coverprice in The US than we would in
Blighty. And that seems to bepretty much the same for
everybody. But while in the mindof, you know, looking at
distributors, one of thedistribution companies that I've
been aware of for many years,because I'm a comics fan, is
Diamond Distribution. Mhmm.

(13:55):
Who not only distribute comics,but also games. And I hadn't
actually particularly looked atthem because I thought they'd
probably just charge too muchbecause they're a great big
behemoth and

Dave (14:05):
They're huge. I mean, their their list their list of
clients is enormous. Yeah. Itruns to dozens or if not if not,
almost, you know, hundreds of ofof clients. It's massive.

Matthew (14:17):
Yeah. You know, they their sort of preorder list
every month was so extensive. Itwas like a telephone directory
magazine that they published.

Dave (14:26):
Mhmm.

Matthew (14:26):
And I think, you know, game shops had to, like, sub not
game shop. Well, possibly gameshops as well. But in the days
before the Internet, comic shopsused to have to buy copies of it
to to their preorders and butwould also buy extra copies to
sell to their comic collectingcustomers as well. So Yeah.
Yeah.
They were a big name. As I say,I I hadn't really considered

(14:48):
them, but they've been goingthrough some financial
difficulties at the moment.They've declared, oh, I can't
remember what it's, chapter 11bankruptcy or proper full
bankruptcy. But one of thethings that's currently going
through the courts at the momentis they now claim all the stock
that had been sent to them onconsignment by games companies,

(15:10):
you know, who could have been ushad we we come with them where
we know we say, okay. We'll giveyou x 100 books, and then you'll
sell them.
And then when you sell them,we'll get, if we're lucky, a
third of the cover price. A bitless than a third. And now
they're, you know, now they'resaying as part of their
bankruptcy proceedings, well,that's technically our stock

(15:32):
now. Not you don't own that. So,you know, we will sell that on,
and you will not get a third ofthe covered price because we're
bankrupt.
So we're not giving youanything. And it will you know,
any money we make out of it goesto our creditors in the order
with which creditors are repaid,which means, obviously,
generally the banks first. Yeah.And I think that's a bit of a

(15:57):
shitty thing to do. And it alsomakes me think very carefully.
We've gotta be really carefulabout this distribution thing.
But it does feel a bit liketheft.

Dave (16:06):
It's it's a it's a it's a wheeze. What they've what what
they've done is there are, Ithink, a 128 companies which
they currently hold consignmentstock. And they are saying for
those companies, many of them,or perhaps all of them didn't
file a particular financialstatement that came with this

(16:29):
consignment. A UCC one as it'scalled. Don't know what that
means, but that's what it'scalled.
But in not filing that littlebit of admin, that bit of red
tape, it effectively givesDiamond Distribution the
opportunity to make the claimthat they have done, that this
this this stock is effectivelyunder the circumstances that

(16:52):
we're in, this stock iseffectively theirs, and they can
sell it and keep all the moneyfor themselves.

Matthew (16:56):
And it's Yeah.

Dave (16:57):
It's it's a it's a technicality. It's a it's a
little loophole that they areexploiting. And even if
technically, you know, by USlaw, they are in the right or at
least somewhat in the right.Morally, it is a really shitty
thing to do. You know?
It is it does feel like, likeyou say, it does feel like

(17:19):
theft.

Matthew (17:21):
So as I understand it, a UCC one is when somebody
declares bankrupt. You go, well,I'm one of the creditors. If
there's any money coming out ofthis, you know, they owe me x
money. It's actually reallydifficult for somebody with
unsold stock to say. You know,you could say it about you'd
think about saying it if, youknow, your distributor had sold

(17:46):
50 copies of your book orsomething, and you go, well, I'm
expecting £20 for each of thosecopies of about $20, of course,
it's big.
Yeah. 50 times 20, I'm lookingfor, you know, a thousand
dollars or whatever. Then you'dobviously go, well, they haven't
paid me by a thousand dollars. Ibetter fill in one of those
statements for a thousanddollars. But you wouldn't
necessarily think, but all therest of my unsold stock in that

(18:08):
warehouse well, that'll surelybe coming back to me because
they don't own that.
That's mine. So, you know, we'lljust arrange delivery at some
point. But no. You should havesaid, and actually, and even
then, there's, you know, there'sa cheekiness there. You're
you're you're kind of assumingthat the all the stock you sent
to the warehouse was gonna besold, and you're gonna get

(18:28):
thirty thirty pounds back on itor 20

Dave (18:30):
Yeah. Whatever. Get get your cut. Yeah.

Matthew (18:32):
And and and do that thing. So, yeah. I'm not sure
it's the thing that most peoplewho'd, you know, who are who are
splitting their thing into thedistribution channel would think
they have to do. However, it's awarning for us if we do.

Dave (18:48):
Yeah. It definitely is something to be aware of. And I
think, know, maybe, yeah,obviously, a lot of other
companies will be a lot more ontop of this concern or this this
risk in light of

Matthew (18:59):
And actually, I'm gonna add this to to our Old West News
section actually, because So

Dave (19:07):
so we ought

Matthew (19:08):
to having talked about this, we ought to explain it's
not coming very soon.

Dave (19:13):
Yeah. So in this situation, there are some some
big tabletop publishersinvolved, you know, including
Goodman Games, Green Ronin, andPaizo. And Paizo have already
announced that upcoming releasesaren't gonna be available, are
gonna be delayed in theiravailability because of this
situation. So it's having a realworld effect on well, mean it's

(19:36):
obviously having a real worldeffect on these companies
because they're looking likethey might lose tonnes of stock.
But it's also Yeah.
A really world effect already onfans Of gamers. Of those
companies and customers of thosecompanies. So there's a court
there's a court hearingscheduled, I think, for the July
21 because, obviously, thesecompanies aren't taking this
lying down. So we'll see whatcomes of that. See what Yeah.

Matthew (20:00):
But you think about those companies like Paizo, you
know, we we we would be talkingabout a few 100 books, I'm sure.
Yeah. But Paizo, we're talkingabout thousands of books. And
Yeah. Diamond would have beenthem one of their main
distribution channels, you know.
Yeah. Not just necessarily inThe US even, because Diamond
used to distribute to Englishshops as

Dave (20:20):
well. Yeah.

Matthew (20:23):
So Interesting. Interesting

Dave (20:26):
thing to watch. Again, something that a as a new, you
know, as a as a new company, itnever really it wasn't anything
that we've considered. So it's agood No. It's a time it's a
timely timely warning for us.

Matthew (20:39):
More on distribution in our Old West News slot a bit
later on. First of all, theEmmys shortlist has been
announced. That's all aboutsomething positive.

Dave (20:49):
So so more fun. Yes.

Matthew (20:54):
So the biggest news, obviously, for the people that
went up to collect The UK GamesExpo Awards for Moria, That is
to say, me shouting as I wentup, I am Gar Hanrahan. And then
after having collected it,shouting, I am no longer Gar
Hanrahan.

Dave (21:17):
Is the Movier Movier

Matthew (21:20):
is up for awards, isn't it?

Dave (21:22):
It's up for a few. Yes. It's up for best supplement.
It's up for best cartography. Ithink there might be another one
it's up for, but I can'tremember that the top of

Matthew (21:31):
my head. Yes. Funny enough. I thought it was fee,
but I can't remember what thethird one is. Let me just see if
I can do a quick find and

Dave (21:36):
I'm having a quick look. No. Can't see. So other things
that have been nominated,there's not much in there that
I'm familiar with. It looks likeNo.
Exalted Funeral Press have donevery well. They've got a lot of
nominations for a variety ofgames, but none of which I'm
familiar with. But good luck youknow, congratulations to them.

Matthew (22:00):
What else? Other other names that spring out are mythic
oh, sorry. I've just foundproducts of the year, Moria.

Dave (22:07):
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I should put those up.

Matthew (22:10):
Mythic Bastionland is is there. Now it's got a vague,
really, connection in that Intothe Odd is by the same creator
as Mythic Bastion Land.Interesting. Another one that
has no connection at all withFree League but with a connected

(22:37):
company, Two Little Mice are upfor Memento Mori, the deathless
edition. Mhmm.
And, of course, the big namehere, maybe the crushing name of
the whole thing, I wonder, isMonty Python's co curricular
medieval reenactment programYeah. From Exalted Funeral.

Dave (22:58):
It's funny, isn't it? I haven't played that game.

Matthew (23:02):
But And it's not funny. I mean, that that's the thing.
We we know that role playinggames that are meant to be funny
never are funny.

Dave (23:09):
Yeah. That's kind of what I was gonna say. I mean, it must
be very good because, you know,here it is. It's up it's up
there with, you know, with withmore than one nomination. But
again, yeah, it's only in in inrole playing game sense, it's
it's not something that I wouldreally wanna play.
I mean, we had this conversationbefore, but yeah. Yeah. It's

(23:32):
yeah. It's just it's not my bag,but maybe I should have a look
at it just to see how how wellit's been put together. Yes.
So we have a good

Matthew (23:42):
luck to

Dave (23:42):
good luck to them. And I guess I'll be interested to hear
from people who've played it,how well it plays. I don't know
anybody who's played it yet, butmaybe one of our listeners does.
If you're on the if you're onthe Discord, ping us a message,
let us know.

Matthew (23:55):
Give us a shout. Tell us what it's like. Give us

Dave (23:57):
a bit of a potted review of of the game. Because it yeah.
It it just feels to me that youwould be expected to be, you
know, be funny, be humorous, andit might force you know, all our
games, we are laughing most ofthe time. You know, it's Yeah.
We know we are having a lot offun.

(24:18):
We don't need the game to tellus to have a lot of fun. So and
maybe actually, if we wereplaying a game like Monty Python
where we felt like we had tohave fun, that might actually
reduce the amount of fun we hadbecause we were so stressed
trying to make it fun, if yousee what I mean. So but anyway,
I you know, this is all just myfeeling based on never having

(24:42):
even touched the book or lookedat the book or read any of it.
So as with most of my comments,they might be complete bullshit.
So Yeah.
Yeah.

Matthew (24:53):
Yeah Also, we've got a a best cover from Joann Nor,
which is on A Farewell to Arms,which is a Morckborg First World
War setting.

Dave (25:02):
Oh, okay. Nice. Nice.

Matthew (25:04):
So that's up there for best cover art. We will have to
decide. Well, first of all, wehave to investigate how we can
enter our game for the NES. Idon't know whether we have to be
going to GenCon for it, but Idon't think we do.

Dave (25:20):
No? Okay.

Matthew (25:23):
Unlike UK Games Expo where you've actually gotta be
exhibiting at Expo. Yeah. But wewould be we would have been too
late for this year

Dave (25:30):
Well, obviously. Yeah.

Matthew (25:32):
When we publish, but we will qualify for next year. So
we'll have to investigate thatand try and it'll

Dave (25:38):
be worth worth sticking it out there to see what happens.
You never know. You never know.

Matthew (25:43):
Well, I don't know whether it's worth it. Depends
how many books we have to givethem.

Dave (25:47):
True. True.

Matthew (25:49):
Well, we'll look

Dave (25:50):
into that though. Yeah. But yes. So anyway, if, yeah, if
you're if you're if you'reinterested, go and take a look
and support your your favoriteproducts for the for the for the
NES.

Matthew (26:05):
Cool. Right. Now, we are recording this on the July
6, which is two days after theJuly 4.

Dave (26:15):
Well done.

Matthew (26:17):
And this is the time when our cousins over the other
Atlantic fought a verysuccessful battle against
authoritarianism and the vestedinterests of commercial
companies wanting to get theirprofit out of the Americans. And
obviously, you know, have hadalmost two hundred and fifty
years of freedom, etcetera,since then. So I one thing that

(26:43):
caught my eye, mainly because Iwas listening to Ken and Robin,
is an historical RPG calledNations and Cannons, which looks
at that war of independence. AndI thought, you know, given that
we've just written a historicalRPG, we ought to take a look at
that. Sadly well, maybe notsadly, maybe very popularly,

(27:08):
adaptation of five e rules.
Hence, you know, Dungeons andDragons, Nations and Cannons.
You see what they did

Dave (27:15):
there? Yeah. It's very original, isn't it? Sorry. I
sound really bitter there, but,know Yeah.
Yeah.

Matthew (27:24):
Anyway sounds they've they've been advertising it, so
I I looked at it. They kickstarted it in 2023. Nothing has
come out in print yet,interestingly. I thought, when I
first looked at it, that they'dsell you know, they'd they'd
sold out all their firstprinting and stuff, and part of
this advertising campaign wasabout a preorder around, you you

(27:50):
know, doing a

Dave (27:50):
separate print or something.

Matthew (27:51):
Yeah. But actually reading the comments on the on
the Kickstarter, it turns out, Ithink nobody's actually got any
print, any physical product yet.

Dave (28:02):
No.

Matthew (28:04):
So so that makes me feel quite good that we got our
physical product out even if weare feeling now we might have to
do a reprint, well, at somepoint soon.

Dave (28:13):
Yeah. Well, I mean, that's that's, you know, that's an
element of of success cause it,you know, I mean, we we did we
did quite a big run for us. Andit's just showing that there is
some some kind of popularity forthe game, you know, that was
enduring and ongoing, which isbrilliant. So it's a nice it's a
nice problem to have. You know,how big a reprint do we go for?

(28:34):
But yeah. So this game this thisNations and Cannons is is by a
company called Flagbearer Games.I don't know what else they've
done.

Matthew (28:43):
I think this is their only thing.

Dave (28:45):
Is it? Right. Okay.

Matthew (28:47):
I think.

Dave (28:48):
Yeah. But yeah. So it seems that yeah. Two years on,
there is looking at the commentson the Facebook Facebook on the
Kickstarter page, there is thereis a little bit of increasing
frustration in some backers thatthey haven't yet seen their
products.

Matthew (29:05):
Mhmm.

Dave (29:06):
Don't know why. I don't know if there's a if we had an
update as to problems indelivery, but but yeah. So but
yeah. But it's I mean,interesting again. It it it
seems to be a game that, youknow, doesn't have fantasy in

(29:28):
it, doesn't have magic fantasyin it, doesn't have magic in it
as far as No.

Matthew (29:30):
It does have six new human roles with variant traits
for a diverse party withoutfantastical races. Yeah. A
detailed history of heritagescovering the people and cultures
of the colonial America, a newfirebrand class, a rebel rouser
whose penny is as mighty as asword. Mhmm. Subclass options

(29:54):
including marksman and turncoat.
Well, obviously, they call it aduplicitous turncoat here, but
what I think we probably mean isa loyal and patriotic servant of
King George, don't we? I knowwhat duplicitous about that.

Dave (30:09):
Yeah. Again, the the the history is all based entirely
upon your sense of perspective.

Matthew (30:18):
So and yeah. I'm intrigued about origin of some
of the art in here. The downloadI will link to the quick start
maybe would be a goodintroduction for a game because
that's free and exists onKickstarter. Not Kickstarter.
What do I mean?
Drive thru RPG. And he's overtlypolitical, Dave, because I I I

(30:42):
don't think us Brits come out ofthis terribly well.

Dave (30:47):
No. But the game isn't encouraging people to go and
punch Brits in the face rightnow though, is it?

Matthew (30:53):
So

Dave (30:53):
I think that's the difference for me.

Matthew (30:56):
Maybe. Maybe. So anyway, yeah. So that's there. I
I just it has come to myattention.
And we are talking about theworld of gaming, and it's the
fifth of well, it's the July 6now. So Mhmm. I thought I'd I'd
put it on the table. But we maybe done with our world of gaming
slot.

Dave (31:16):
I think we probably are today.

Matthew (31:20):
So shall we wind forward a hundred years from '17
'76 Indeed. And talk about OldWest news.

Dave (31:28):
Old West News. What have we got for Old West News this
week, Danny?

Matthew (31:31):
Well, given that we started a conversation about US
distribution, maybe we shouldContinue. Manage expectations
there. So I have been in touchwith a couple of distributors.
We've got one more that we wantto talk to through you. I I you
and I I said that you and Ishould write an email to our
colleagues here in The UK abouttheir partners, which we haven't

(31:52):
yet done, so we need to do that.
I think, though, we are lookingwe're not looking at any sort of
immediate distributions. That'sthe point I wanna get across.
Yeah. It looks to me like theAmerican distributors, not only
will they hold on to our stockand if they go bankrupt, they'll
try and sneak it off us. No.

(32:13):
But they will also expect tohave about a four month pre
order period before they committo stock, which, to be honest,
sounds really wise. So we wouldbe looking at signing up with
one or other of the companies,and then they'll put our game in

(32:33):
their catalogs. And then they'lldo a preorder period. And then
they will suggest what stock wegive them.

Dave (32:44):
Yeah.

Matthew (32:44):
So it is looking at four, five and given that we
haven't signed off for them,let's not let's not even say
four months away. Let's say weare looking at least six months
away before it starts appearingin US shops. Yeah. So until then
oh, this is a nice upgrade tothe item. Until then, the the
best place to buy our game is onour online store.

Dave (33:08):
Indeed.

Matthew (33:09):
And it's not only the best place because it's the
pretty much the only placeexcept for Paladins Games Castle
in The US who were one of ourbackers and have a good healthy
stock. But they don't do postalorders. So you can only

Dave (33:25):
Get it in the shop.

Matthew (33:26):
Get it in the shop there.

Dave (33:27):
Yeah. But but

Matthew (33:32):
if you want to order, order from us.

Dave (33:34):
Yeah. So our shop is up and running. Good work, Matthew,
for getting that fixed up. Andyes. So that's the place to go
and we can still get youproducts through that roof.

Matthew (33:45):
And not not just that. There are some exclusive
products. So you will only everbe able to get the deluxe linen
cover from us. And that willonly be as as stocks last. And
Yeah.
Talking of stocks lasting, wewill be shortly out of dice. And
I don't think I'm gonna reorderdice at least until we do

(34:09):
another Kickstarter. So so ifyou want trouble dice, you've
gotta get them from us.

Dave (34:17):
And and get them soon. Yeah. Well stocked last.

Matthew (34:19):
And get them soon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don't don't
hang about.
So we've had a few people, asyou all know, Dave, contacting
us on the Kickstarter saying,oh, I've just realized I never
filled the pledge manager in.And every one of those comes so
far oh, no. I think we may havehad one from Europe, but
everybody else has come from TheUS. And in fact, they this is

(34:42):
what's bringing to my attention.We either have one, two, or none
packets of dice left without USforwarders.
Yeah. So depending on theiranswer to that, I think there's
every chance that the Americanbacker who ordered two packets

(35:04):
of dice may be having to waituntil we send him a package
direct with everything in it

Dave (35:11):
Yeah.

Matthew (35:11):
From The UK.

Dave (35:13):
Yes. Un unfortunately, but I mean, we we we did do our
level best to to make sureeveryone in The US got the
message that they they need todo their pledge manager in good
time. But unfortunately, forthose who didn't, then it's it's
a slightly more painful process.

Matthew (35:31):
Yeah. Hopefully, it's not been much more painful than
it would have been. So far, youknow, they've paid their postage
without the Exactly. Without apledge back. I'll give them a
link for their postage.
Yeah. I'm just waiting on thatone customer until we know where
the stock is. Yeah. And thenwe'll sort that out for him. But

(35:56):
also, apart from sorting out oldstuff, we are also, of course,
kicking on with some of thestretch goals.
We have news, I think, on thevirtual tabletop and on the solo
rules.

Dave (36:13):
Indeed. Well, you're writing the solo rules, mate.
What what what what news do wehave there?

Matthew (36:20):
So I finally, words are appearing on well, I I started
saying this beforehand. Not somuch on paper, but on my
computer screen. So this isgoing to be interesting. I have
absorbed as many solo rules as Ican see. Mhmm.
And and there's some interestingthings. Like, a lot of the solo

(36:40):
rules kind of they they kind ofimply, but they don't state
categorically, unless they arevery much a sort of journaling
game. A lot of the solo rulesI've seen don't really talk
about what are the recordsyou're keeping of this. What
what is the product of, youknow, of of the gameplay other

(37:04):
than just thinking about a storyand and rolling dice. And so I
have written some, what I thinkis some interesting guidance for
how you might want to do itwithout being at all
prescriptive.
Yeah. I mean, at at the end ofthe day, I the only way I can
see playing any of these Hellogames is at least have a bit of

(37:25):
a scratch pad with you andwrite, you know, some bullet
points down when things happenthat you might want to do when
you come back to it or orwhatever. But, you know, and
there were some games that arevery specifically some of the
ones that our our friend andmate, Craig, mate, that are very
specific about writing stuffdown. In fact, actually, one of

(37:46):
my favorite ones is then, youknow, obliterating some of the
letters as communication getsmore and more weird. But but a
lot of games kind of just, youknow, assume you're gonna do
something like that, but don'tdon't help you do that.

Dave (38:00):
No. Leave it up to you to work out the best way to do it.

Matthew (38:03):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think I'm still leaving it up to
people, but I'm I, you know, Ithought it's worth talking
about, you know, this isdifferent ways you might do it.
And I think

Dave (38:10):
Yeah. It doesn't hurt

Matthew (38:11):
to give

Dave (38:11):
us pointers, does it? No.

Matthew (38:13):
Yeah. Exactly. You know, in in the in the in the
nineteenth century in the West,we've got two great sources. You
know, there's loads of pulpnovels. So Yeah.
Yeah. A lot of the the historyof the West is actually people
writing their biography,fictionalized or otherwise Yeah.
Or somebody writing one of theirbiographies. So I'd point to a

(38:35):
few of those. And I've done athing on, of course, the Ken
Burns effect in in documentaryfilmmaking is when you pan
slowly over a photograph whilesomebody reads generally from
some letter they've written homeMhmm.
About the, you know, what whatwhat I did in the war, mom, sort

(38:56):
of stuff. And so, of course,there's the idea of an
epistolary sort of reportingback to your family the
adventures you've had. So thoseare a couple of the ideas I'll
throw in But at the end of theday, I've also said if you wanna
just jot some stuff down on theback of an envelope, that's fine
too.

Dave (39:13):
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Cool. I love I'm looking forward
to seeing them once you finishthe first draft.

Matthew (39:19):
Yeah. And I'm doing some interesting things as well
about so our game is very muchan open book. I don't wanna say
a book. I mean, obviously, youhave to open the book to play
it, but you can do anything. Youknow?
We we have two very differentplaytest campaigns running. Yep.

(39:42):
It can be played in all sorts ofways. I feel the solo game, at
least to begin with, needs tohave a little bit more focus. So
I've I've created a veryspecific sort of direction and
objective for your first solorun through, which isn't so much
about some of the stuff thatwe've talked about and we have

(40:04):
rules in the game like buildinga business and stuff like that.
But I think that once you'vedone this first one, what I've
said is you can then, you know,once you've got the hang of
doing it solo, then, you know,try some of the other ones and
have your big dream aboutbuilding a business and use
these tools as well. So theseare bits I've written so far,
and I'm just, at the moment,toying with I can't just the how

(40:32):
the cards help add storyelements and using using a card
deck to

Dave (40:37):
Oh, yeah. Cool.

Matthew (40:39):
To do the unpredictable stuff apart from dice rolls, of
course. But how how to make themfeel different to just rolling
stuff up on dice. Because Yeah.We could just say, you know, do
a d 66 and here are variousstory elements and have a whole
bunch more tables. But I think Ithink, you know, there's an

(40:59):
interesting card mechanic.
And I picked up some stuff fromthose other ones as well. So
that's what I'm doing there.Cool.

Dave (41:05):
Cool. Be interesting to see it. Meanwhile,

Matthew (41:09):
Paul is working very hard on

Dave (41:14):
the Foundry VTT?

Matthew (41:16):
Yeah.

Dave (41:17):
And he's just released a new version of the system to our
testers, which is brilliant. Thecore module is is almost
completed. It's very close tobeing being done.

Matthew (41:31):
98%.

Dave (41:33):
98%. So, yeah, it's it's really getting there. He's
working really hard and, youknow, I can't I I can't say how
much I appreciate the effortthat Paul has put into this for
us. It's been it's been nothingshort of heroic. So, yeah, thank
you Paul for all of that, andit's it's it's really getting
there.

(41:53):
So it's I I know we've said acouple of times it's a few weeks
away. I don't know how manyweeks away it is now, but is
coming. It is getting there.It's taking a bit longer than
than we perhaps thought, butthat's that's just the nature of
the beast.

Matthew (42:07):
So I like I like I like his list of to do things. So
obviously, he's got to add pagelinks to the book for people
that are using it alongside thebook. But each other, this
includes the ability to throw aknife or topple. Yeah. That's a
good one.
I also like the town sheet. Beendreading this as it's massive. I

(42:28):
can imagine. Funny enough, Ihave been bulking at actually
making a form fillable versionof that on our Dandeln page as
well. So I know exactly where itis coming from.
And, Dave, I will never let youwrite another form like that
ever again.

Dave (42:46):
It works really well on paper. It works really

Matthew (42:48):
well on

Dave (42:49):
paper. But

Matthew (42:50):
Yes. Sorry. I'm getting some icons for conditions. We
should maybe have a chat withhim and see if we can commission
some from Yeah. Some of ourartists.

Dave (43:03):
Not a not a bad idea.

Matthew (43:04):
Pick him up for that one. Absolutely.

Dave (43:06):
Yes. It's coming along. It's coming along.

Matthew (43:09):
It's coming along. Right. Is that us done on this?
We got anything else to talkabout in the Old West work on
Stretch Girls, US distributionshop? We've done all of that.

Dave (43:19):
Yeah. So yeah. All of that. I think, you know, just
just just to say a couple otherthings. Play testing for Remnier
Zero is still ongoing has beenthat, you know, has been going
really well.
The players are absolutelyloving the campaign. There are
things that need to be so I needI probably need to pause the
playtesting sometime soon andthen go back through the rules

(43:39):
and and make all the relevantamendments because amending
stuff on the fly as I have beenis is getting a bit messy. So
I'll you know, the OCD part ofme likes to clean things up once
in a while. But very pleasedwith the way some of the some of
the mechanics, particularly thesort of the push mechanic with
the Felix dice is is working. Sothat's really pleased with that.

(44:01):
Also, in my spare time, I'vebeen fiddling about with with
another

Matthew (44:05):
It's all in your spare time, Dave.

Dave (44:08):
Well, know, I've kinda well, I've kind of, you know,
been been a professional fulltime game designer stroke
freelancer for a while. It willbe in my spare time because that
doesn't earn enough money havingto get a But, yeah, it's a la
vie. But, yeah, so also fillingup with ideas for a couple of

(44:29):
other things which which, youknow, I I won't sort of talk
about any detail yet becausethey're a long way off, but some
some quite fun stuff that I'vebeen been working on.

Matthew (44:37):
I'm very excited about one of those things. Cool. So
oh, the other thing, Justin, Ineed to do the layout on things,
but I've got some busy weeksahead of me, that's not going to
happen for a few weeks yet. Butit is coming. You've written the
words.
We just need to put them intolayout.

Dave (44:57):
It's a bit of work. Anyhow, I need I need to yeah.
We need to do a little

Matthew (44:59):
bit of work. And actually, I need to chase up the
art for that. I've not had theart back from either of the two
artists. Yeah. Let's do that.
Yeah. Okay. Shall we listen toyour article about Coriolis?

Dave (45:10):
Yeah. Let's do that. I was lucky enough to get my hands on
an early copy of the core book,as we had a few copies sent for
UK Games Expo for display. I'vebeen reading my way through it
since then. Now normally I'dpick an element and go into a
deep dive on it, but I don'tfeel like I know the game well

(45:32):
enough to do that yet.
And as I've been reading througha few fundamental questions have
come to mind and I thought I'dtalk about those today. First
things first though, I'm reallyenjoying reading the core book
and loving a lot of things aboutthis game. Regular listeners
will remember my initialskepticism when I first heard

(45:53):
that the Great Dark was going tobe a huge departure from the
third horizon and be a verydifferent gaming experience. But
the more I've learned about thegame, the more I've come to see
it for what it is, an excellentdescendant of the additions that
have come before. Followers ofFree League will already have
seen what I'm going to calltheir creative courage in

(46:14):
changing entire settings in onesweeping event of, look out,
spoilers, of unbridleddestruction, or events that
change history for good in bothCoriolis and Simba room.
And it's that creative couragethat has led to the great dark,
a new creative enterprise thatwas so much of a bigger risk

(46:34):
than just edging the thirdhorizon along a bit, but
otherwise keeping thingsbasically the same. So bravo to
Nelson Costa for that. But hereare my questions and a few
thoughts about them. With thecaveat that I've not read every
word of the book, so an answermay be lying in wait for me to
find it, and you may have foundit already. My first question is

(46:56):
this.
What is the purpose of life inthe lost horizon? On page 243,
you can find a quotation frommaster Mosca of the explorer's
guild, which says, why do we goout into the dark? Why do we
risk our lives in the depths ofsome forsaken ruin? Why do we

(47:18):
seek out the horrors of theblight? We do it because we
must.
We do it for the future. We doit for our children. Now that's
all well and good. We explorebecause we have to. It's in our
nature, and we need to explorein order to survive.
But that isn't really a purpose.Presumably, the people of the

(47:40):
Lost Horizon are seeking abetter life, a place to call
home, to settle, to escape thedegrading confines of Ship City
before it's too late, andhumanity in the Lost Horizon
meets a freezing death at thechilling hands of the vacuum of
the dark. Let's not forget thatthe game draws inspiration from
the old explorers of antiquitycrossing the poles, climbing the

(48:03):
mountains, and sailing the seas.They were explorers as your
characters are in the greatdark, but they weren't exploring
for their own survival or thatof their children. They were
privileged to dilettantes withthe money and the courage to go
where no one had been before,and their homes and lives were
secure if they survived theiradventure.

(48:25):
For them, the exploration wastheir purpose, but it feels to
me that there must be more to itfor your characters in the great
dark. For me, I think thepurpose of life in The Lost
Horizon is primarily aboutsurvival and finding a better
life than the one they areliving. It's all about power and
influence too, but making use ofthat clout is all about making

(48:49):
that better life the version ofthe better life that you want
rather than the version of thebetter life that your enemies or
rivals want. On top of that,making discoveries about the
builders, exploiting theirdormant technology for the good
of humanity, and learning moreof the blight and how to defeat
it are not ends in themselves.They are a means to an end, and

(49:12):
that end is a good, secure,happy life that isn't vulnerable
to the inevitable collapse ofShip City and the death of all
its inhabitants.
My second question is this. Whathappened to the icons? And
please beware there are spoilersover the next couple of minutes.

(49:33):
The mercy of the icons campaigntells us that the emissary, the
being that was believed to be arepresentation of one of the
icons, was in fact nothing ofthe sort. They were a nasty
infiltrator from the secondhorizon and didn't have a divine
bone in their body.
But we do know that the iconswere a thing. They existed. You

(49:54):
said a prayer and something goodhappened, a plea for help and an
answer given. They were real. Sowhy are they not real anymore?
You'd have thought thechoriollites would still pray to
them, and as they were real,they should still answer those
devout folk. But they don't. Ithink there are three potential

(50:14):
reasons for this. First, theynever existed at all. The
benefits gained from a devoutprayer were only ever gleaned
through the internalization ofthe expected help, delivering a
kind of spiritual placebo effectthat triggered the push of the
dice.
This is very much the approachI'm taking with the influence of
the gods in Rome year zero,working title only, the role

(50:38):
playing game we're creating setin ancient Rome. But I don't
think it works here. And whynot? Because darkness points.
It's much harder to rationalizethe broad impact of darkness
points on the world of the thirdhorizon as some internalized
impact.
Secondly, perhaps the icons aresmall and weak creatures. Not

(51:02):
deities at all, but some form oflife that had powers that looked
mystical to the religious peoplewho believed in them, but they
have no influence over the losthorizon at all. This idea
doesn't work terribly well forme either as it begs way too
many questions about what theicons were and how they could
then be uncovered and perhapsunderstood. And third, they are

(51:25):
powerful deities but capricious.What deities aren't really?
They've lost faith in those whofled the third horizon and have
turned their faces away fromthem forever. I think this is
the most satisfying of thesethree options but still leaves
open the possibility that theicons could or should or might
change their minds and starttaking an interest in the lost

(51:47):
horizon. It's a bit of a looseend that flaps about in the dark
between the stars. But none ofthis speculation should
necessarily have any impact onyour game of the great dark. But
for me, steeped in the thirdhorizon, the question, and
perhaps more importantly, theanswer to the question, matters.

(52:08):
My third question is what hashappened to the third horizon in
the intervening two hundredyears? Now this really interests
me. I want to go back and seehow the third horizon has
changed. Has war ravaged theentire horizon, or has peace
settled? Which factions remain?
Has any one faction becomedominant over the entire

(52:30):
horizon, perhaps now an evilempire with the other factions
bickering under their boot heel?Or perhaps the shattering
energies of war have damaged theportal network? Perhaps the
network crashed for decades,leaving each system isolated and
alone, to fall back upon its ownresources and intuition to
survive. Many would fall. Somewould revert to barbarism.

(52:54):
Others would flourish in afashion. Perhaps some throw
themselves on the mercy of theicons and, through devout prayer
and sacrifice, find a new routeto their divine support, giving
them more divine power andinfluence at the expense of
allowing the darkness betweenthe stars to infiltrate their
lives. And then the portals arerestored. The portal builders,

(53:16):
ancient technologies slowlymanaging an unconscious but
inevitable interdimensional selfrepair. But things are not the
same as the portals are not onlyharder to navigate, the skills
to do so have been lost in time,but the repairs have changed the
network and portals no longerconnect where they once did.
The possibilities are endless.My final question for today is

(53:41):
this. What are the sevenhorizons? No, I don't know. I've
never heard of the phrasebefore.
I checked with Matthew before Iwrote this, and he's never heard
of it either. But there it is onpage three zero four of the
Corebook where it says, whilethe path ahead may seem

(54:02):
uncertain, the future of theseven horizons remains
unwritten. For a moment, Ithought it might be a typo, but
that's one hell of a typo. No, Ididn't think that's likely. Then
I wrecked my memory of all thetimes we sat down with Nils,
Costa and the others to talkabout Coriolis.
I can't say for sure they nevermentioned this concept, but if

(54:24):
they did, I don't recall it. Imean, it would have been some
time ago and during aconversation where much beer had
been quaffed. So forgive me formy memory lapse if indeed there
is one. I also thought aboutasking Nils, but then I thought,
nah, let's leave it as asurprise. Perhaps maybe one of
you can enlighten me.

(54:44):
And if not, I'm sure you'd allcome up with exciting theories
as to what it might mean. SoI'll leave that question there
for now hanging in the air. Sothat's it for today. You can
probably see from my questionsthat despite my interest and
excitement over getting thegreat dark to the table, my true
love is still Coriolis, thethird horizon. Despite the mercy

(55:08):
of the Icons campaign and theimpact that has had on the world
of the third horizon, I stillwant to go back and explore it
as there's so much left todiscover.

Matthew (55:18):
So the exciting thing is, obviously, we we've been
looking at these hard copiesthat we got at UK Games Expo,
lucky us. But hard copies havebeen distributed. I had my e e
email notification of

Dave (55:33):
Okay.

Matthew (55:33):
Dispatch on Friday. And so

Dave (55:36):
Haven't had mine yet. But yeah. Cool.

Matthew (55:39):
Oh, wow. Wow. Well, there you go. But you know what
they're like. You'll probablyget yours a day after the actual
books arrived.
I was half expecting to arrivehome after our game yesterday
and find it had been deliveredlast night yesterday, but it

Dave (55:53):
But no.

Matthew (55:53):
Because often. Anyway, so so yeah. It's on its way
everybody. Coriole is a greattalk. And I think you and I are
both feeling in a happier moodabout it than we were after that
original discussion.
And some of what you've pulledout here is the reason for why
that is. But also, I think we'vehad word back from those who've

(56:18):
seen preview PDFs of thecampaign, which answers a lot of
our questions. Or whether itanswers your questions, I don't
know.

Dave (56:29):
No. I haven't seen the campaign. But, yeah. So I I just
I am definitely liking The GreatDart more. I'm more excited
about it.
And as I said in in in thepiece, you know, as I look into
it more, I I I move further awayfrom the the the me that was
disappointed that it waschanging its emphasis in such a

(56:52):
kind of sweeping way, and moreto the me that is looking at the
game that's in front of me. Andactually, there's quite a lot of
stuff in there that I reallylike. But I think, yeah. I mean,
what I mean, normally, by now,you've said, I'm gonna take
issue with you on such and such.

Matthew (57:11):
Well, I I am gonna take issue with you on something. So
let's go

Dave (57:15):
through it I assume you agree agree with everything I
say then, clearly.

Matthew (57:18):
No. No. So I do well, I do agree. And I think if
possibly at the heart of any anyconcern we have with The Third
Horizon is your very firstquestion about what is the
purpose of life in The LostHorizon. You know, it's often
said of science fiction games inparticular that they don't have

(57:40):
a thing you do, that they're toobroad.
Yeah. So everybody ends up, youknow, murdering people on one
planet and then moving on toanother planet just to get out
of jurisdiction. Yeah. And andthat was a criticism leveled by
others, not by us, but by othersagainst the third horizon. But

(58:01):
I'm still stuck with why thehell are we here?
Part of me part of me is wrappedup with with the thing that you
say last that maybe we are onlyhere to go through and survive
the Mhmm. The lost horizon alittle bit. We we know that they

(58:22):
told us it was kind of partlyinspired by the terror, which is
about the search of theNorthwest Passage and getting
stuck in the in the North. Andand maybe the only purpose that
there is is to survive it,particularly because of the
thing you say at the end, whichI hadn't spotted. And I'm not

(58:44):
sure how many other people havespotted because

Dave (58:46):
Mhmm.

Matthew (58:46):
I would have thought there'd be some chat about this.
But as you say, in theafterward, on page 304, you say
or you quote them saying, whilethe path ahead may seem
uncertain, the future of theseven horizons remains
unwritten.

Dave (59:04):
Yeah. It's interesting because that kind of implies
there are seven horizons now.There are so so there is a
fifth, sixth, and seventhhorizon out there somewhere,
which just haven't beendiscovered yet, but are are
currently existing. Because it'sbecause, I mean, the Lost
Horizon, would that have beencalled a horizon before they got

(59:25):
there if somebody was, like, youknow, or was it just another bit
of space that they've they've

Matthew (59:31):
been in game definition of a horizon, I don't know.
Because the in game definitionof horizon is well, actually,
maybe That's a good question.Actually, my answer is yes. If
the Ingem definition of horizonis

Dave (59:47):
Horizon.

Matthew (59:48):
Here's a bunch of planets that we communicate with
and a bunch of people live onthat is distant from everywhere
else, which is effectively whatit is.

Dave (59:55):
Yeah. I guess so. Yeah. That's a fair point. So

Matthew (01:00:00):
if we remember our history, the first horizon is
good old Earth and relativelyneighboring planets that we
expanded to. Then we sent a darkship or or a couple of dark
ships out into the far future.But while they were still
journeying, we found a gatewayto what we then called the
second horizon. And there, wefound a portal to what we call

(01:00:24):
the third horizon. And so that'show those names appeared.
Yeah. This, although it has noportals to connect it to any of
the other horizons, musttherefore be an horizon because
it's a group of systems Yeah.

Dave (01:00:38):
We can Yeah. That's yep. That's fair enough. They're in
essence, there are three moreYeah. Out there waiting to be
discovered.
Presumably, because, I mean, thefirst horizon is the only one
that doesn't have any portalportal builder or builder
element to it. Obviously, thesecond horizon

Matthew (01:00:56):
Obviously, at some point, it's got a portal to it
because they discovered a portalthere. Well,

Dave (01:01:01):
they discover the portal in the second horizon?

Matthew (01:01:04):
No. I think I think the

Dave (01:01:06):
portal Was that okay?

Matthew (01:01:07):
I'd have to don't quote on this, but I'm pretty sure
that they discovered a portalwithin the first horizon at
eleven to the second, but I

Dave (01:01:14):
might be wrong. Right. Okay. Yeah. I'm not a 100% sure.
Okay. So then the the theimplication is then that all
Seven Horizons are in some wayconnected to the portal builders
or the builders. Well,

Matthew (01:01:30):
I don't know. Because

Dave (01:01:31):
well, because the the first four are then, in that
sense. If there was a

Matthew (01:01:34):
Well, this fourth one isn't, is it? This one we're in
now, isn't this?

Dave (01:01:38):
Well, there is. Because the fourth one is full of
builder relics, and it's gotdead

Matthew (01:01:43):
But are these builders the same as the portal builders?

Dave (01:01:46):
Well, we we don't know. But maybe that's what

Matthew (01:01:51):
because the technology of these relics is different
from a lot of the technologiesthat we you know, what they do
is different. There are no sugarglobes here, for example.

Dave (01:02:06):
Were sugar globes a portal builder thing?

Matthew (01:02:09):
I think they were portal builder thing.

Dave (01:02:10):
Were they? Maybe. Okay.

Matthew (01:02:12):
Well, they're they're a relic thing.

Dave (01:02:14):
But, again, maybe maybe you just haven't found them. So,
anyway, my my my my assumptionwas that all of these portal
builders or builders' relicswere probably the same culture,
the same civilization. But thatassumption could could quite
well be wrong.

Matthew (01:02:31):
Yes. Yes. That's the assumption that the maybe that
the the people of of theCoriologus community have made,
but maybe they'll be discoveredto be wrong. Who can tell?

Dave (01:02:42):
Okay. Interesting.

Matthew (01:02:46):
But yes So the point I take issue with a bit is Yes. Go
on. Your explanation for wherethe where the icons have gone.
Okay. I wonder whether they haveexisted at all after all, but

Dave (01:03:08):
Well, I do I do I do note that I mean, I'm I'm listing
options, but I do note that I Idon't think that's a very good
option.

Matthew (01:03:17):
You If you to

Dave (01:03:19):
my essay and, you know, properly

Matthew (01:03:22):
Yeah. No. No. No. Well, on

Dave (01:03:23):
on on the grounds that that they do, you know, that the
icons

Matthew (01:03:29):
Definitely help because you You praise the icon. Again.

Dave (01:03:32):
And something happens. Now, you know, I said, you know,
well, you could you could turnthat into well, this is an
internalized placebo effect andyou gain a, like a, you know, an
internal Confidence. BecauseYeah, exactly. Which I think
could just about work, but orjust about explain it, if you
wanted to, you know, if youwanted to go down that line. But

(01:03:53):
the thing that it doesn'texplain points.
So, you know, darkness pointsbeing the other side of that
mystical coin, you can't youcan't really explain what
happens with darkness points tointernalization and internal
confidence or lack of confidenceor that kind of internal spirit,
personal human spirit doingsomething good rather than the

(01:04:16):
spirit of something divine. So,yeah, I mean, it's an option.
But again, I I mention it, butalso mention that I think it's
it's a pretty weak it's a weaksuggestion. I think the most
likely one is that they are, youknow, they are gods, but they're
just capricious ones. And sothey've turned their turned

(01:04:37):
their faces away from thosewho've left the third horizon.
But then it then that does begthe question, you know, where
are they? Could they come back?

Matthew (01:04:48):
Well, is I I that's that's the method. If they if
they existed at all, that thirdoption you book is the one I
like most that that and I thinkis the one that my character in
the great dark in Thomas'scampaign probably believes.
Yeah. That we have done a greatwrong by coming to the Lost

(01:05:13):
Horizon. Mhmm.
And we are being punished by theicons.

Dave (01:05:19):
By being ignored.

Matthew (01:05:21):
So does ignored.

Dave (01:05:22):
But does your character then have a have a a dream, even
if it's an entirely fruitlessone, of getting back to the
third horizon?

Matthew (01:05:29):
I think so. Potentially. Yes.

Dave (01:05:32):
Because that then brings me to the other question I
raised, which I find reallyinteresting, you know, is what's
happened to the third horizon inthe last two hundred years? If
you did fly back and get there,what would you find?

Matthew (01:05:44):
Well, that that is the most interesting bit, I think,
of your essay. Because theproblem I have with settings of
games like this, as you as youtalk about, you know, the
bravery of this is they've madegreat changes, whereas in a lot
of these settings, thousands ofyears pass sometimes in in in in

(01:06:07):
even in game time, and yeteverything stays in the same
level of

Dave (01:06:11):
It's a tiny

Matthew (01:06:12):
roughly fancy medieval technology that that we wanted.
It's one of the things thatpisses me off with a great long
history of things like the thewhat's it called? The the books,
the Song of Ice and Fire. Yeah.Yeah.
There's no sense that fivehundred years before the vaguely

(01:06:34):
Wars of the Roses technology ofSong of Ice and Fire that the
people they talk about in theearlier books, and this is
particularly true when you seeHouse of the Dragon or
something, where that happenshundreds of years beforehand,
but have you know, they're stillgot vaguely Wars of the Roses
technology. Haven't gone backto, like, thirteenth century

(01:06:57):
technology. That really pissesme off. So the opportunity of
saying, well, let's let's lookseriously at what the third
horizon would look like twohundred years on, I find
actually quite interesting andquite exciting. And I I think
that could be in, you know, nowthat now that they're handing
out licenses of these things andpeople could do, you know, you

(01:07:18):
you could do Coriolis cycle now,Third Horizon stuff, but you
could also do Coriolis cycle twohundred years from now.

Dave (01:07:31):
Two hundred years later. Yeah.

Matthew (01:07:33):
You know, a more advanced or or more degraded.
I'm not I'm not gonna say Yeah.What where the technology is,
but it would feel a bitdifferent after two hundred
years, I'm sure. And that couldbe quite an exciting thing.

Dave (01:07:48):
Yeah. That's exactly what I was thinking. So the only
other thing I was one questionone other question I I thought
of, but I didn't put into theinto the essay. Cause again,
there's probably a good answerto it. Although I've got a
little little take on it, I'lljust mention.

(01:08:09):
So the question was, what is thehistory of the Lost Horizon?
Now, guess the point is, well,the history of the Lost Horizon
is something for you to discoverin play, something for you to
learn about and understand asyou you go through it. So I did
that's why I didn't put thequestion into the into the essay
because I think that answer isprobably a bit obvious. But the
thing that strikes me is so theone thing you don't get in

(01:08:33):
Coriolis Third Horizon or thisare well, you do a little bit,
but kind of alien races. Youknow, you don't get your
versions of the Klingons or theRomulans or that kind of, you
know, you don't get that kind ofthat kind of thing.
Although there's obviously alienlife out there. Yes. You know?
Yeah. There's alien life onplanets that you find and and

(01:08:53):
all the rest of it, but it's notit's

Matthew (01:08:54):
not It generally just eats you.

Dave (01:08:57):
Yeah. It's not it's not it's not developed into another
civilization, even if it, youknow, the Necatra are semi
intelligent, or the Akkilibriand all the rest of them. What
made me think though, there isone, definitely one race of
alien out there, possibly morebased on our conversation a
little while ago, and that isthe builders. They might be dead

(01:09:18):
now, but there was definitely arace out there. Unless the game
arc is something that this is anearly iteration of humanity that
has come out half a millionyears ago or something.
But putting that aside, thenthere's definitely one civilized
alien species out there that hasbeen out there, even if they are

(01:09:38):
now all dead and gone. So alienscan be a thing in the game, in
that sense. And the influence ofthem, particularly in the great
dark, is obviously is massivebecause, you know, the whole
game is about exploring thestuff that they've left behind.
But yeah, it was just aninteresting little sort of
observation that, know, theyjust said, there are no alien

(01:10:00):
races. You you don't get thatkind of thing.
But actually

Matthew (01:10:03):
No.

Dave (01:10:03):
There are. They're just they're just they're just not
current. Or if they are current,they're hidden. But, yeah. So I
just I just thought I'd throwthat in as a as a as another
consideration I had when I wasthinking about this.

Matthew (01:10:19):
Yeah. So what are we doing next week?

Dave (01:10:23):
Well, next week

Matthew (01:10:24):
Well, not You. Next week, I'm gonna it. The week
after.

Dave (01:10:28):
Two weeks

Matthew (01:10:28):
time. What are we doing?

Dave (01:10:30):
You were talking about doing a Oh, yes. Conversion of
faith from tales of the Old Westas a possible alternative to
darkness points in Coriolis.

Matthew (01:10:43):
Yeah. We had an interesting question from

Dave (01:10:46):
We did.

Matthew (01:10:47):
Jim. Jim of the Raspy Raven Discord server, and also
of our server, because he's oneof our patrons as well. Mhmm. He
he's just gone through the firstbook of the campaign, and his
players had some feedback, whichI'm neither surprised by. But I
I I I did rather poo poo in inmy response.

(01:11:12):
But one of the things he said,his final question was, would
there be an alternative system?What year zero engine system for
this setting? And my firstanswer is, no. Of course not.
And then I wrote down, god,obviously, tales of the Old
West, partly because the thingthat you and I, in particular,
love about the setting ofCoriolis is the religiosity

(01:11:35):
Yeah.
Which I'm yeah. You know, thereare many people who say that's
the thing they don't like aboutit. But, sort of, there's a
million games they can play.

Dave (01:11:45):
Every everyone's entitled to their opinion. But, yeah, I I
I was you know, I think I when Ifirst saw choreography, had a
little question mark in the backof my head about, is this
something I'm really gonnaenjoy? But, yeah, it's
brilliant. I love it. It's itworks beautifully well.

Matthew (01:12:00):
And, you know, and we have talked about other systems
before for pushing dice becausewe yes. We know that the
darkness point system is a bitbit clunky. And then I thought,
well, you know, we do have and,you know, we've kind of
downplayed the religiosity offaith in in the Old West, but we

(01:12:23):
can upplay it. So I have setmyself the challenge of Yeah.
Granting Jim's longest heldwish, I'm sure, that that the
faith system from Tazyar Westmight be ported in some way to

Dave (01:12:42):
Coriolis.

Matthew (01:12:43):
Coriolis. Cool. So in our little run of vaguely and
adversarial celebratory, I don'tknow, Coriolis themed episodes.

Dave (01:12:52):
Related related content. Yeah.

Matthew (01:12:54):
We're we're gonna do another Coriolis themed episode
next time and apply Old Westfaith to it.

Dave (01:13:01):
That sounds great. I'm looking forward to that already,
actually. That's that should becool.

Matthew (01:13:07):
Yes. I think there's all sorts of changes one could
make to it to make it fit inbetter with the world. But you
have to think about I

Dave (01:13:15):
look forward to hearing what you got to say. But Cool.

Matthew (01:13:20):
Until then Yep. It's goodbye for me.

Dave (01:13:26):
And this is another classy close to the cod codpie.

Matthew (01:13:33):
Classy close to the codpies.

Dave (01:13:36):
Yeah. Sorry about that. That was me just falling apart
right at the end. It's a classyclothes to the podcast, and it
was it was goodbye from him.It's definitely now goodbye from
me.

Matthew (01:13:49):
Definitely. And may the icons, who still exist, bless
your adventures.

Dave (01:14:00):
You have been listening to the Effect podcast, presented by
Fiction Suit and the RPG Gods.Music stars on a black sea used
with permission of Free LeaguePublishing.

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