July 20, 2025 • 61 mins
Old school podcasting! Hose rules for Coriolis the Third Horizon
00.00.40: Introductions
00.02.03: Thank you to our new Patron - Paul Penna
00.02.33: World of Gaming - Troll Lord games crowdfunding a factory; Green Ronin legal defence fund, crowdfunding legal costs: Cörk Bord, Paul Baldowski’s Nordic police procedural/horror.
00.23.04: Old West News - our error
00.35.29: Faith in the 3rd Horizon (Jim’s blog)
00.58.22: Next time and Goodbye
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dave (00:39):
Hello and welcome to episode Dave.
Matthew (00:50):
And I'm Matthew.
Dave (00:50):
And he's Matthew. That was a long pause.
Matthew (00:54):
Yeah. No. I I I feel I that, you know, we need to add
more dead air into this episode.
Dave (00:59):
We've oh, we've we've only done this 262 times, obviously.
So you thought you'd have gotthe got the basics of it done by
now. But never mind. Carry on.
Matthew (01:08):
Well, yeah, normally, I cut in on top of you, you see. I
just give you plenty plenty oftime to finish.
Dave (01:14):
That's that's good of you. That's good of you.
Matthew (01:17):
But right now, you're cutting into my bit where I tell
everybody what's happening inthe program. We've got a new
patron to thank. Whoo. So we'llbe thanking that new patron.
I'll tell you more about them ina moment.
We've got three very differentcrowdfunders in our world of
gaming for very differentthings. Uh-huh. So that will be
interesting. We have aninteresting Old West News. I
(01:40):
know we keep saying, well, we'renot gonna run Old West News
anymore, but we have a bit of amea culpa to discuss on Old West
News.
So tune in for that. Then, aspromised, we are talking about
faith in the third horizon.
Dave (01:57):
We are.
Matthew (02:00):
So shall we crack on with with our our new patron?
Dave (02:06):
Let's yep. Indeed. Crack on.
Matthew (02:09):
So welcome, Paul Penner. I'm guessing, p e double
n a. Hello, Paul. You've joinedthe patronage. Come and join the
Discord as well.
It's a world of fun in ourDiscord.
Dave (02:23):
It is.
Matthew (02:23):
And it's the nicest place on the Internet.
Dave (02:25):
TM. Yes. Thank you, Paul. Great great to have you on
board, and thank you for yoursupport. And, yeah, look forward
to seeing you on the Discordhopefully very soon.
Matthew (02:34):
Excellent. Then then we've got three really
interesting stories in the worldof gaming. We have got three
very different crowdfunders. Thefirst one I think is very
interesting, and I'm pretty sureis kind of tariff related. Troll
Lord games are crowdfunding afactory.
Dave (02:56):
That's interesting. I hadn't heard about this until I
saw that, but I'm having a I'mgonna have a quick quick look up
look it up now. But, yes, go on.Then could
Matthew (03:07):
Troll Lord Troll Lord games do castles and crusades.
That's their that's their mainbag. Yeah. The news I got was
from the lovely Morris onEndworld. And I must admit,
unlike unlike a respectablenewspaper, I haven't actually
checked my sources on that one.
(03:29):
I just took Boris' word for it.And I'm just gonna maybe I
should actually check out. Thiswas a tweet he he put on Blue
Sky. I haven't even actuallychecked whether Enworld talks
about it at all.
Dave (03:41):
I'd like to say that, obviously, we're we're we're not
a, an accredited news anaccredited news outlet or
network. So have you everchecked your sources before? I
mean, it just
Matthew (03:55):
doesn't do.
Dave (03:56):
Doesn't feel to me like like we do that very much in
this.
Matthew (03:59):
But but maybe I should have done because I'm not
actually seeing any of this newseven on end world.
Dave (04:03):
Yeah. I mean, we are all about rumor and hearsay, aren't
we? I mean, come on. This isthis is a Yeah. Podcast.
Matthew (04:08):
We we we are all about
Dave (04:10):
We should always start the program with a disclaimer saying
that, you know, whatever we talkabout might be totally, totally
fictitious. Well, that's quite
Matthew (04:18):
a lot
Dave (04:18):
of what we talk about is totally fictitious. But you see
how I'm covering, so to give youa bit of time to
Matthew (04:24):
Right.
Dave (04:25):
To look at that.
Matthew (04:25):
Track. So I I have discovered on BakkerKit. We I I
I will put a link in the shownotes just to prove it's
actually happening. Troll LordGames, The Factory. Troll Lord
has been in the TTRPG years fortwenty five years.
Thanks to the tremendous supportof our growing community. We are
(04:46):
finally able to expand ouroperation to include our very
own print shop and warehouse.
Dave (04:51):
So
Matthew (04:54):
this is on back of kit. Their Target oh, it's
interestingly only a $100. Ididn't know you could get a
print shop that cheaply.
Dave (05:03):
Okay. That's interesting. That's very interesting.
Matthew (05:07):
You can purchase a spot on the wall of names at all the
dawn out entryway, a brickengraved with your name that
will line the walkway leading tothe factory's entrance, or a
native Arkan Arkansas how how doyou say Arkansan?
Dave (05:24):
It's Sorry.
Matthew (05:25):
That's I'm spelling it out. Arkansorn?
Dave (05:28):
It's well, I well, ark it's pronounced Arkansas
Matthew (05:34):
Yeah.
Dave (05:34):
As as the so if you're talking about what? A a a
resident of Arkansas. Arkansan,I guess. Arkansasoren? I don't
know.
I don't know. It's interesting.
Matthew (05:47):
I don't know. We've just written a game based on the
Old West. We should know how topronounce the native of
Arkansas, Smokey. Well, anyway
Dave (05:53):
Arkansas is quite east for our purposes, so, in terms of
Matthew (05:58):
what we're Yeah. Thank god for that. We don't need to
worry about you at all,residents of Arkansas, unless we
need to write your address on anorder. If so yeah. So, yeah, I
think, you know, home printingstuff.
They've got a picture of somemachines that I'm sure are gonna
cost more than a $100. I amintrigued as to how much they
(06:23):
really hope to get, becauseobviously, they they aren't
seriously thinking of building afactory for $100. We'll put a
link in the show notes if youfeel inclined to help.
Dave (06:32):
Yeah. Do say it does say here committed to expanding
their print facility. So I don'tknow. It seems that they've got
one already. It's not likethey're getting one from
scratch.
It seems. But, yeah, you'd thinkyou'd need tens of thousands for
something like that or more,wouldn't you?
Matthew (06:53):
Or more. Yeah.
Dave (06:55):
But okay. Well, good luck to them. Think, you know and
yes, I think you're you'reabsolutely right. It's almost
certainly to do with not wantingto source stuff in China or the
EU. Particularly now again thatthat that that Trump is talking
about 30% tariffs on theEuropean Union, which I saw,
which is If that becomes thething, that'll be an issue for
(07:18):
us in the not too distantfuture.
If we are producing, printingour books in Lithuania. So I
suspect it's specifically inresponse to that, and I guess if
you can afford to do it, it's agood way of doing it. But I
guess it's a big investment ifif you don't if you don't get
(07:39):
the return.
Matthew (07:41):
Yeah. So just reading more about the story, they have
actually been printing in housesince 02/2005, printing their
soft cover books in house. Mhmm.Their hardcover books are
printed at a US factory. So myoriginal assumption that this
was Trump based or, shall I say,tariff based
Dave (08:00):
Yeah.
Matthew (08:00):
Is although they do mention all of tariffs, we're
acutely aware of the dislocationthat recent economic turns have
caused. Mhmm. But given theprinting in The US anyway
anyway, it may be a good time toto do a Kickstarter like this
and expand the the print shop.
Dave (08:24):
Well, I guess it's an interesting one as well, because
what what do backers actuallyget? Is this just a way for the
community to support thiscompany in becoming
Matthew (08:33):
The book has got a named tree. There are 10 spots
where you can have a tree in thegrove around the factory, which
I guess comes with a little signsaying that you paid for it.
Dave (08:45):
So I I mean, I guess my I guess my point is that actually
you you don't get a product atthe end of this. What you get is
Matthew (08:50):
You don't get a book.
Dave (08:51):
What you get is the satisfaction of of having helped
this company, you know,basically with a capital
investment towards theirprinting plant. Which is cool,
that's fine, it's just that it'smore of a an altruistic thing
rather than a customertransaction thing, which
(09:12):
obviously a lot of Kickstartersare. Because you expect to
Matthew (09:15):
get Which may be why they're not doing it on
Kickstarter, because Kickstarterexpressly forbids that sort of,
you know, fundraisingKickstarter. There's gonna be a
product Yeah. Behind theKickstarter, I think. So
Dave (09:34):
Oh, really?
Matthew (09:35):
So, yeah, read all about it on low end on the link
that we'll put in the shownotes. Yeah. And so far, as of
recording, they have made$14,900 from 185 backers. Yeah.
(09:55):
And they've got thirty two daysleft.
Dave (09:58):
Cool.
Matthew (10:00):
Now there's another interesting backer kit. Oh, I
can't remember if it's on backerkit. This is from not a troll
lord, but a
Dave (10:09):
A green A green Ronin.
Matthew (10:11):
Green color. So let's let's let's look that one up as
well.
Dave (10:17):
I know. I'm doing we're we're very well prepared today.
Here we are, spending our timejust looking things up on on on
Google.
Matthew (10:25):
The Green Running Legal Defense Fund is this one. We
will put a link in the shownotes. It's on GoFundMe, which
is Right. Yeah. Not, again,Kickstarter, and this is
precisely
Dave (10:41):
just crowdfunding thing, isn't it? Yeah.
Matthew (10:43):
Crowdfunding thing that this is the sort of site that
lets people do. This sort ofcrowdfunding. Yeah. So far,
they've raised more than TrollLord Games. They've got 36,000
US dollars.
And this is about the subject wetalked about a couple of weeks
ago, or was it even four weeksago, where dime Diamond
(11:06):
Distribution is claiming thestock that it was holding in its
warehouse for other publishers,but hadn't actually paid those
publishers for any of that stockNo. Is now trying to sell that
stock to cover its debts.
Dave (11:23):
Yes. Now trying to claim that that stock for certain
legal legal
Matthew (11:27):
reasons is
Dave (11:28):
actually theirs to sell and keep the profit from and not
the owned not owned by theactual companies that produce
them.
Matthew (11:37):
Yeah.
Dave (11:38):
Seems a bit unfair and maybe, you know, a sign of
desperation for Diamond of thesituation that they're in.
Matthew (11:48):
Yeah. Absolutely. Good luck to them as well. Because I
think it's quite important.
Dave (11:55):
Yeah. It's a it's it's a terrible precedent to set if if
the if the if distributionwarehouse and the company can
just say, oh, we're we'rerunning out of money. So
actually, all this stock thatwe're holding for you and you're
paying us to keep, that's oursnow. We're gonna do with it what
we like. That doesn't seemterribly fair and equitable.
(12:16):
No. You would think I mean,maybe, you could argue that, you
know, the the the companies thatown those stock might have to
pay to have it moved somewhereelse. But, you know, if if the
distributor's, you know,bankrupt and has got no money,
but still Yeah. That that'sstill a potentially, if you've
(12:36):
got a lot of stock, that's apotentially punishing extra cost
that you haven't factored in. Soit's a yeah.
It's a it's a tough one. I mean,I I obviously feel for for
Diamond for going bankrupt, butI'm not this is this isn't the
way to to try and rescuethemselves, I don't think.
Matthew (12:53):
No. No. I mean, in a way, though, it's not
necessarily Diamond, of course.Actually, it's whoever Diamond's
administrators are.
Dave (13:06):
Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew (13:07):
There will be an accountancy company that's gone
in and gone, we think we cansell this off and pay off the
people to whom.
Dave (13:16):
Yes. That's a fair
Matthew (13:17):
owes money.
Dave (13:18):
That's a fair point. And and I guess potentially, if you
look at it in a very sterile andwhat's the right way of putting
it? Ruthless ruthless way. So ifyou look at this from a, you
know, a very sterile andruthless, you know, way, you
(13:40):
could possibly argue that theaccountants are simply doing
what their responsibility is,which is to get the best for
Matthew (13:48):
for Oh, absolutely.
Dave (13:49):
For the investors in the company and all of that. And if
this is actually seemingly alegal thing that they are doing,
then it might not be veryethical or moral, but in strict
legal terms it might bereasonable is the wrong word. It
might be something that they canlegally try and do. Which means
(14:11):
that, you know, that loophole inwhatever legislation is
obviously an issue because thatshouldn't be there. But then,
know, in the wider scheme ofthings, what you are doing is is
severely damaging the people whoare good customers of that
business a desperate attempt topay off the investors in that
business when that business hasgone out of out of business.
Yeah. Means business in onesentence. That's definitely not,
(14:35):
you know, an ethical way ofgoing about doing it. But I
guess in many cases where moneyis concerned, in many countries,
ethics are less important thanthe bottom line to to a lot of
people. Yeah.
Sadly. No.
Matthew (14:51):
But, you know, given given, as you know, we've been
talking about distribution andAmerican distribution, and we
know how much it costs as itwere, you hardly one, I feel,
can hardly break even with anAmerican distributor unless one
puts a lot of stock in theirwarehouses and, obviously, and
(15:12):
that they managed to sell it.Yeah. And you managed to help
them to sell it. So then havingthat stock taken from you turns
it immediately from a only justmaking profit to making a
massive loss. Yes.
So I have every sympathy forGreen
Dave (15:28):
Yep.
Matthew (15:28):
Ronnen Me too. Whatever the rights and wrongs legally
and ethically are.
Dave (15:35):
Well, you know, I think, I mean, it it it's we I think the
rights and wrongs are are prettyclear. I think it's it's it's
it's whether there is a, youknow, unfair stroke
inappropriate stroke,exploitative loophole in the law
that this company is trying totake take advantage of. But,
(15:56):
yeah, completely completelybehind the the the the companies
who are now effectively beingripped off.
Matthew (16:03):
Right. Now I've also got a crowdfunder, but this is
for something really quiteunusual, at least in this week.
This is for a new game.
Dave (16:13):
Crowdfunder for a new game? Never.
Matthew (16:15):
Yeah. Who'd have thought that?
Dave (16:17):
Exactly. Yes.
Matthew (16:21):
Now this isn't actually live yet, but it's just got up,
and I like it so much. I'mtalking about it now. Mhmm. It's
from your friend of mine, Dave.It's from Paul Badowski of All
Rolled Up and desanctioned fame.
Dave (16:36):
Indeed.
Matthew (16:37):
And it looks like a fabulous thing that I chuckled
at when he first started I thinkthe word is skeeting about it on
Blue Sky. Uh-huh. Don't don'tdon't give me that look. Don't
roll your eyes at me, Dave. Whenhe when he when he started
(16:58):
posting about it on Blue Sky, Ithought, that is a very amusing
title.
And then magically, it's allcome together, and he's actually
put a Kickstarter page orKickstarter preview page, I
should say, up. And there willbe a campaign. And this is for
the marvelous game, Kirkboard.
Dave (17:19):
Kirkboard.
Matthew (17:21):
See, my my my Swedish is getting better. I almost got
that right.
Dave (17:25):
Yeah. So it's a So Yeah. It's spelled
Matthew (17:28):
Carry on, Tate.
Dave (17:29):
Spelled c o r k, but the o is actually a Swedish letter
called an So you pronounce it asso it's Kirk Kirkboard. Yeah.
Anyway, you'll you'll you'llwanna you'll I can feel you just
bursting to gush about this gameand about what what you'd like
Matthew (17:44):
to actually say. Really, the thing I want to gush
about is Kirkborg. If you'regonna do a version of Mortaporg,
of which we have seen
Dave (17:52):
Many.
Matthew (17:52):
Very many Morborgs, then doing and, you know, let's
talk about this. This muck borgis out of Sweden. What else
comes out of Sweden? And indeed,pretty much all of Scandinavia
now. Everyone's getting in onthe act.
And that is Nordic policeprocedurals.
Dave (18:10):
Yes.
Matthew (18:11):
And so Kirk Borg is the mork borg of Nordic police
procedurals.
Dave (18:17):
With select
Matthew (18:18):
I have no idea what it's gonna play like. Yeah.
Yeah. And and very likely to behorror as well. So, yeah, I I
don't wanna be the sole gusherhere.
You can gush a bit about it too,Dave, even though you've only
just heard about it.
Dave (18:35):
Well, I I it looks nice. I I I've enjoyed some of the books
of that that Paul has has listedas inspiration, like Stig
Larsson and Joe Nesbahr. So,yeah, I think it would be cool.
I mean and obviously, I mean,Paul's great, and his work is
(18:59):
great. So this is gonna be good.
Yeah. I I'm I'm I'm I don't know
Matthew (19:07):
whether Paul's work is great. I mean, our work is
great. Paul's work can only bequite good.
Dave (19:11):
Paul's work is great. Our work is is like, you know,
chef's kiss, you know. So Imean,
Matthew (19:16):
so Yeah. Yeah. Not not
Dave (19:17):
to Okay. Not to, you know, build up of, you know
Matthew (19:21):
Although, hang on. Hang on. And for somebody to question
our research.
Dave (19:26):
Well, mistakes can happen, and we will talk about that in a
minute. But no. It looks lovely.It's so so it's on it's it's got
a notification page up onKickstarter at the moment. As as
you know, as some people know,I'm I'm interested in police
procedurals.
Mhmm. I am thinking aboutsomething along those lines for
(19:49):
for us that affect. Well, morethan thinking about. I've done
quite a lot of work on andalmost ready to start
playtesting. So yeah, I lovethat idea.
Is an interesting thing. So I'mtrying to a reasonable sensible
thought out of all this, onlyjust having learned about this
(20:11):
twenty minutes ago.
Matthew (20:13):
Shall I intercede though, Dave?
Dave (20:14):
No. Let me just finish my point before I before I forget
it. How many how many Mercboyvariants are we going to get?
And when is one too many? Butyou could also say the same for
u zero engine, because you get alot of u zero engine variants
and when is one too many forthat as well.
Matthew (20:38):
Yeah. But, You can also say the same for d twenty fifth
edition, I think. There's a lotof variance to that.
Dave (20:46):
Well, yeah, of course. Yeah. That is very that is very
true. And I guess it just goesto prove how good the original
work by Pella and Nirhan wasthat, Mortbjorg has spawned such
a, such an enthusiastic,offspring, in all sorts of
(21:06):
different areas. So, yeah.
Yes. I'm I'm not sure. See, whyI was struggling to get my
thoughts together was becauseI'm not really sure what point
I'm making other than observingthe fact that there are a lot. I
wasn't I wasn't saying it was abad thing necessarily.
Matthew (21:23):
But You're speaking as a man that's played none of
them. And my argument will be
Dave (21:29):
Play it.
Matthew (21:30):
There's gonna carry on being Morgborg variants until
there's one that you, Dave,actually sit down and play.
Dave (21:36):
Yeah. That's What
Matthew (21:37):
they're trying to do is find something that will make
you pick up a Morcbog.
Dave (21:42):
I I do own quite a lot of them.
Matthew (21:45):
Yeah. Yeah. But you've not played any of them,
Dave (21:47):
have you? Played any of them. No. That is true. I should
get I should do that.
I should take that as a as a asa oh god. My my brain this
morning. My excuse is that I'vegot this bloody interview
tomorrow and I've been preparedfor that, so my brain is a bit
frazzled.
Matthew (22:03):
Right. Okay.
Dave (22:05):
But, yeah.
Matthew (22:05):
I'll let you off that one.
Dave (22:06):
I can't
Matthew (22:07):
Think about it. What is the risk assessment of you not
playing Mork Board a cork board?
Dave (22:12):
I can do a risk assessment on that. Yes. And then the easy
mitigation of that risk is toplay the game. So Yes.
Matthew (22:20):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Dave (22:23):
Maybe I should
Matthew (22:24):
Right. But the first thing one needs to do is back
it. And, course, there are risksassociated with backing it. But
we will put a link to thepreview page in the show notes,
and everybody else can maketheir own risk assessment and
decide whether or not they wantto pack it.
Dave (22:38):
Indeed. Indeed. Never guess what my job's about, or
this job I'm going for anyway.But yeah. Cool.
Matthew (22:47):
Cool. Cool. Cool. I'm keeping the details of your job
entirely secret as is befittingDave.
Dave (22:51):
That is fine. Yes. Yes.
Matthew (22:54):
Now yes, shall we move on to a thing that has been
slightly foreshadowed in ourprevious segment?
Dave (23:03):
Yes. Indeed. So the other day, we
Matthew (23:08):
I got a letter.
Dave (23:09):
You got a letter.
Matthew (23:11):
An actual paper letter in an envelope. Three pages of
letter. I I was so excited justby this form of communication.
Dave (23:21):
Yeah.
Matthew (23:22):
And and I'm not I'm not taking a piss here. I really
liked it.
Dave (23:25):
No. I agree. I agree as well. And for for the for the
for so the letter was from, agentleman called Charles King.
Matthew (23:34):
And Who's one of our backers.
Dave (23:36):
And he was he was saying that while he was really
enjoying the book and that in ina in a in a a book that's 300
pages long, the way we'vetreated the history is actually
very good, and we are getting itright across the board mostly.
He did pull out one specific andquite important, error that we'd
(24:01):
made. And so I think the there'stwo things I want to do here.
One is to basically call outthat error and explain what it
is. Well, three things.
Yeah. So so, basically, call outthe error. Secondly, explain
because because this is mydrafting. It was my writing. I
did I did, you know, most of thehistorical research on things
(24:23):
like slavery and and and that.
But so my mayor, Culper. I'llexplain how, why.
Matthew (24:30):
It's nothing to do with me. I'm internally blameless in
this matter. Is that what you'resaying?
Dave (24:34):
I'm well, I'm I I wrote the line. I wrote that
paragraph. So I'm I'm happy toDid write that line. I'm happy
to accept the the fault in thisinstance. But oh, yeah.
I I will do a little bit ofexplanation about how that came
about.
Matthew (24:50):
Yeah. I think that is that is in itself interesting.
Dave (24:53):
And then and then thirdly, we are gonna fix that problem.
So we, know so first andforemost, in in the book, we
obviously talk quite a bit aboutthings like the experience of
native Americans and the,African American experience. So
obviously in that we talk aboutslavery. The book isn't about
(25:13):
the American civil war, but weobviously reference it because
the American civil war was thethe ultimate vehicle through
which, slavery was abolished. Imade a comment in, in the book
that, there's a commonmisconception that the war was
started over slavery.
(25:35):
Now that is is an incorrectcomment. My my explanation for
how that happened is I gotcaught up very much, cos I've
been thinking about it, I gotcaught up very much in the Union
perspective. And while it isabsolutely clear that the the
(25:56):
driving reason behind the thesecessionist states and the
Confederate states was states'rights. And the key state right
that they were fighting over wastheir right, as they saw it, to
have slavery in their in theirstates. At the start of the war,
from the Union perspective,slavery wasn't a wasn't the key
(26:21):
reason they they they werefighting.
They were war? Yeah. They wereoriginally fighting. Mean, war
was started by an attack by theConfederates. So kind of the
Union was forced into the war,you could argue, I guess.
But they were originallyfighting to preserve the Union.
That was their that was theirnumber one objective when the
war broke out. In fact, youknow, at the start of the war,
(26:45):
Lincoln promised not tointerfere with interfere with
slavery in the hope of keepingborder states who were still
with the union. Undecided. Yeah.
Keep them loyal to the union. Itwas only a couple of years or
yeah. Eighteen months into thewar when he may after the Battle
(27:05):
of Antiam, he made a preliminaryproclamation in September,
basically saying to theConfederate states, surrender in
a hundred days or I'm gonna freeall the slaves. They obviously
didn't surrender in a hundreddays. So on the January 1, he he
announced the the EmancipationProclamation, and that was when
(27:31):
the focus of the war changedfrom the union side to just
preserving the union toabolishing slavery at the same
time.
So my mistake was in trying tosum up five years of war and
probably two hundred years ofevents leading up to it, in in
(27:51):
one or two lines, I got veryfocused on the Union side and
put that comment because at thestart of the war, from a Union
perspective, it wasn't aboutslavery. It was about preserving
the Union. But Charles isabsolutely right to say that the
war was started because theConfederates were being
(28:13):
uncompromising over what theysaw as their rights to have
slaves in their states. Thesecessionist proclamations that
they made, I haven't seen themall, but I, you know, I
understand that they were allreferencing slavery as as a key
thing and their rights to it. Somea culpa, that statement was
(28:34):
wrong.
I completely accept that inreading that paragraph, it gives
the the the wrong impressionabout how the war started. I get
I get that. Mea culpa. So sothat's that's that's how it came
about, because I got veryfocused. And I think the sources
I was reading were looking at itmuch more from a union
perspective than a confederateperspective, and that was my
(28:55):
mistake.
What are gonna do about it? SoI've already redrafted that
paragraph to correct that error.
Matthew (29:01):
I mean, the interesting little little sidebar before we
get into what we're gonna doabout it is that you were
already thinking that becausewe're researching Gold Country
Yes. You were saying that yourreading in Gold Country was
already making you think, oh, alittle bit differently
Dave (29:21):
about Yeah. That You're absolutely right. I was I was
already beginning to feel alittle bit uncomfortable about
that statement Because again,the issue of slavery is such an
important one in sort of '18late 1840s early 1850s
California particularly. It wasvery clear actually how how
(29:43):
important that basically, thatreading was giving me a much
better perspective from theConfederate perspective or the
Southern States perspective,which is then making me think,
okay, I've I've I might havemissed something here. And it's
a big miss.
I accept that. But
Matthew (30:00):
yeah. And, of course, in histographically, quite a
dangerous mistake as well, isn'tit? Or quite dangerous
submission. I mean, it was ashortcut. Let's face it.
You know, we're not writing ahistory book here. This was just
a paragraph summarizing a verycomplex and nuanced argument.
Dave (30:20):
Yes.
Matthew (30:20):
Yeah. But, actually, it gives a false impression that
it's actually quite a dangerousone and has proved quite
dangerous in the twentieth and,I guess, even in the twenty
first centuries.
Dave (30:31):
Yes. Absolutely. I mean, we need to we need to recognize
the thing that I kind of failedto to to get into that one
sentence that actually, like yousay, there's racism was behind
the, you know, the Confederatestand and and and led to their
position on on the war. So,yeah, completely accept that.
Matthew (30:53):
So What are you doing about it, Dave?
Dave (30:56):
Yep. So I've I've already redrafted that paragraph through
to correct that error. We willinclude that in in PDF and then
any future printings willobviously have the correct text
within it.
Matthew (31:13):
Yeah.
Dave (31:14):
We haven't talked about what else we might want to do
something on Facebook and othersocials just to draw attention
to this. And thank Charles forhis for his his excellent letter
drawing and drawing thisoversight to our attention and
just making sure that we wekinda correct the record as it
were.
Matthew (31:34):
Yeah. So I thought the the first thing we should do I
mean, you've rewritten theparagraph, as we say, and,
obviously, I've gotta see tryand make sure it fits into the
layout without screwingeverything up.
Dave (31:46):
Yeah. It should it should do. And it can easily be
modified slightly if if it's notquite if it's a bit too long or
a bit too short. That's that's a
Matthew (31:53):
really easy But I thought before that, we ought to
send that over to Charles andjust say, look, this is what we
think he was saying. So,Charles, if you're listening,
although you sent us a lovelypaper letter, which I'm I'm
sorry. I I I'm so enthusiasticabout this letter, but it just
it made everybody. It made mywife think about how few letters
(32:15):
we get nowadays
Dave (32:16):
I know.
Matthew (32:16):
Or send and how nice it was. But I probably will for for
for speed sent, I will send itto you on your email address
that we've got from Kickstarter.Yeah. And hopefully, you'll get
it then. And I will includeDave's text in there.
And just for your comment onbefore we put it into the PDF.
(32:40):
And, yeah, you're right. Weshould think about whether we
want to do something in oursocial channels as well.
Dave (32:45):
Yeah. It's probably worth drawing just just just kind of
replaying this conversationbriefly on on the social socials
just so so we, you know, we getthat we get that correction out
there.
Matthew (33:01):
Yeah. And and then if we get to reprint it, which I'd
like to be able to get to do, weobviously, the reprint will come
out with the with the changechange text as well. Yeah. Yeah.
We may is given that you werealso in parallel, kind of
(33:23):
discovering this in
Dave (33:28):
In the research of Gold Country. Yeah.
Matthew (33:30):
Gold Country. Do you think there's gonna be a section
in Gold Country that talks aboutit in more detail? I mean,
that's set before the civil war,so it's not gonna be
specifically about the civilwar. But but
Dave (33:41):
I think I'm not sure. I I I think it depends what context
we need to give to put thesituation in 1848 to 1855
California into the rightcontext. Yeah. So it probably
needs something. Yes.
I think so. But, yeah, we'llwe'll be be a bit more a bit
(34:03):
more careful on that one. But,you know, I I hold my hands up
on that, but, you know, we haveworked pretty hard, and this is
this is very much an oversight.But I'm pleased that most of the
stuff we've been putting out interms of the history has been
getting a good reception andpeople are.
Matthew (34:20):
Yeah. But but, you know, we did say, and have
always said since the verybeginning of this, talking about
this product or this project,you know, we've said, we're keen
to learn. And, specifically,Charles, you know, cites our
comment on page 12 that tell usif we get stuff wrong
Dave (34:42):
Yes.
Matthew (34:42):
As his reason for writing us a letter in the first
place. So
Dave (34:45):
Yeah.
Matthew (34:47):
So thank you Charles.
Dave (34:48):
No, think definitely. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm very
pleased that, you know, it wasit was was the absolutely from
my point of view, was absolutelythe right way to go about
holding us to account for thingswhen we've made an error. So
thank you, Charles, for doingthat.
That was that was greatlyappreciated.
Matthew (35:07):
Brilliant. Okay. Now shall we move on to things that
I think we got right in in inThursday onwards? And that is
our faith rules. Yeah.
And whether they can fit intoCoriolis, the third horizon.
(35:30):
Friend of the show, Jim, ofraspy raven fame, was musing on
the feedback he collected at theend of his run through of
Emissary Lost, the first part ofthe Mercy of the Icons campaign.
We will put a link to histhoughts as he's described them
on his blog in the show notes.But the first draft, as it were,
(35:53):
was on our Patreon exclusiveDiscord server. His final
question was an interesting one.
Given that Coriolis was the veryfirst adaptation of the year
zero engine, is there anothermore recent version that might
(36:15):
serve the third horizon better?My flippant answer was, of
course, the very best iterationof the year zero engine, our
very own tales of the Old West.But then I realized the answer
(36:36):
isn't as flippant and throwawayas I had intended. One of the
things that attracts us to thethird horizon is the religion.
Longtime listeners will haveheard us frequently marveling at
the way players have theircharacters go to chapel before
any planned encounter to pray tothe right icon and vehemently
(37:00):
defending the darkness pointpush system because it is actual
in game proof of the existenceof the icons.
Tales of the Old West is theonly other Year Zero game, at
least that I know of, that hasmechanics for faith. And I
(37:22):
thought, you could just aboutdrop the faith powered push
system into Coriolis with only afew changes to the mishaps
table. For example, you wouldhave to change the results that
damage your attributes as youdon't take that sort of damage
directly to your attributes inthe more pulpy world of the
(37:43):
third horizon. But, actually,it's not that simple, is it?
There are, I think, threeaspects of icon worship that
make the darkness point pushmechanic really reflect that
world.
One, it's pulpy. Damage does notchange your chances of success,
(38:08):
and players are likely to earndarkness with abandon in the
hope of scoring that vitalcritical hit. Two, the cost is
not individual. Individualplayers don't necessarily
experience the, the bad karma ofthe darkness points that they
(38:29):
have earned. The whole party orother characters can suffer the
results of your darkness pointspend.
Indeed, darkness points fuel thesupernatural powers of some of
the creatures. The icons arespecific. We tried very hard in
(38:52):
tales of the Old West to makethe faith mechanic as accessible
as possible so your faith canfeel just like your self
confidence if you don't want tobe religious. But in Coriolis,
faith is not just about theicons. It's about a pantheon of
icons.
Prepare for an encounter bypraying to the right icon, and
(39:16):
you get an extra dice in yourpushed roll. Two, if you prayed
at a chapel. So let's look atthese three aspects and think
what we might change in thetales of the old West faith push
mechanic to make it betterreflect the third horizon. First
(39:38):
up, pulpiness. In our playtestexperience, Tales of the Old
West players will hoard theirfaith, more willing to accept
failure than spend a faith pointas quickly as choreoist players
earn darkness points.
One reason for this is there'sno limit to the darkness points
(39:59):
a Coriolis character can spend,but a Tails player only gets
four to start at least. They canearn more, but it takes time.
Now I'm looking for a quick fixhere and the quickest would be
simply to say a push earns adarkness point for the GM like
the original, but that's notworking for me. So let's play
(40:24):
test an even more simplesolution. You start with more
faith points.
While we're on that subject, ofcourse, the list of actions that
earn you extra faith might haveto change too. For example,
grooming your horse is not athing that happens in the third
horizon. Tending a garden mightbe. But importantly, we limit
(40:49):
the number of times you can takeeach action in Tales of the Old
West. I wonder if that limit isrequired in Coriolis.
Of course, the other reasonTales players are more reluctant
to push their role is the fearof direct consequences or
(41:10):
trouble as we call it, but thatleads into the second issue.
Trouble should, of course, bedarkness in Corviolis, and I
think the first five dice inevery pool will now be darkness
dice. And the simplest solutionwould be that ones on pushed
(41:32):
darkness dice generate nottrouble, but darkness points for
the GM, which means now we mightget nothing from a pushed roll,
but we might get as many as fivedarkness points. Of course,
players will all be able to buyoff darkness by spending more
faith. Will they though?
(41:54):
If the consequences of thedarkness are spread across the
whole party and pushed into thefuture? I like to think there
will be at least some peerpressure to buy off darkness,
but I think it might help if theGM has options to lay some
darkness onto the prayingcharacter directly as well as
(42:20):
storing some darkness up to fuelfuture events and the powers of
supernatural creatures. And Ihave some thoughts about that.
The third thing I wanted toaddress was making faith more
icon specific for Coriolis. Andthat's the answer.
(42:42):
Make each faith point iconspecific. Play starts with every
character holding nine faithpoints, not four, one for each
icon. They are blessed by allthe icons or maybe 10 points.
They could have an extra pointfrom their assigned icon. You
(43:06):
could use the icon cards theymake for the Kickstarter.
Or now the license is available,somebody could make a new set
with different aspects of eachicon represented. When you pray,
you hand a card to the GM. I didthink for a moment that maybe
(43:28):
you had to have a card for therelevant icon for the skill you
are using, but I think that'sfar too limiting. Though maybe
using the right icon for theprayer, the judge for shooting,
say, means you avoid directconsequences if darkness is
rolled, and maybe it's when youuse an incorrect icon for the
(43:52):
action that you're taking,that's when the GM gets to spend
some darkness points to give youa direct consequence. For
example, using the dancer for ashooting role might mean you
drop your gun.
If you discard other icons toreduce the darkness of a role,
(44:12):
then maybe the GM has morechoice as to what the
consequences are. It's notcomplete yet, and I feel it
needs testing in play, but Ithink we have a framework here
to work with. And finally,finally, an alternative push
mechanic for Coriolis, the thirdhorizon, that fits with the
(44:34):
spirit of the setting?
Dave (44:38):
Yeah. So that yeah. It very interesting. Very
interesting. I think, a coupleof things I would I would draw
out.
Firstly, yeah. I mean, you'reabsolutely right that the
darkness point mechanic reallydoes reflect the Coriolis world.
But I I I, you know, I don'tthink that precludes the option
(45:00):
of using faith. No. Talk aboutit being, you know, Koryo's
being a bit more pulpy.
Damage doesn't change yourchances of success. But, also,
you know, you'd already saidthat you would need to change
the way, you know, the damage isdone because obviously it would
just you know, it wouldn'treduce your chances of success
because it would go against yourhealth or your mental Yeah. Your
(45:23):
mental stats.
Matthew (45:25):
Which may be fine, actually. You know? I think I
don't think we necessarily needto look at changing the damage
system as well, but we do needto think about consequences that
give you a temporary knockbackin those attributes in Tales of
the Old West, which I think arevery in keeping with that genre.
Yeah. Not necessarily in keepingwith the slightly more pulpy
(45:49):
space opera y feel of Coriolis.
Dave (45:53):
Yeah. So I think I think I think the other, you know, the
the other points you make isperhaps a slightly more
pertinent, particularly the onearound the the darkness point
cost not being an individualcost. Because, you know, I think
that's one thing that's reallygood about darkness points and
Coriolis that, you know, you'rebuilding up bad karma, but
actually that bad karma mightreflect onto somebody else
(46:13):
rather than you. Yeah. And as agroup, it makes you there
there's there's there's there'san in game way of being punished
if you push too much becauseyour other players will be
telling you off or giving you ahard time over over, oh, look
how many darkness points you'vegiven us now kind of thing,
(46:35):
because it's just quite a fundynamic.
I do like your idea of possiblyhaving both where, you know,
ones result in darkness points.Although, I'm not sure. You
saying that those darknesspoints would then that would be
just what we would call trouble?And so
Matthew (46:56):
Yeah. So yeah. So Yeah. Obviously, I think there'd be a
terminology change here. I Iswitched in the in the text
between trouble and darknessjust because we're talking about
a system that's caused ittrouble.
Yeah. And we're moving to asystem that talks about darkness
points. So I imagine in thefinal version of this, it would
talk about a number of darknessdice that you alongside your
(47:21):
other ones, and that you'd you'dpick up on darkness. You know,
you you you or or or some otherword that's dark sounding.
Dave (47:30):
I think darkness would work really well, actually, just
just replacing trouble fordarkness. I think that works
with the theme very nicely.Yeah.
Matthew (47:39):
And yeah. And yeah. Just and and there's there's two
things. I mean, obviously, onecould do a whole new edition of
the Third Horizon where you youreally move the mechanics in.
But I think with this, what I'mlooking for is and already, you
know, there are ways, I think,Jim himself had different ways
of dealing with darkness points.
(47:59):
We've discussed it frequently onour program. Yes. But I'm saying
that here's something that coulddrop in and just this is now
your store of darkness points isthe number is the is the number
of ones that the the playersroll when they when they push
their dice. But giving them theopportunity to spend their own
(48:24):
you know, to spend their faithin in the way they do in Old
West to try and mitigate that.
Dave (48:30):
To to buy off those darkness points. Yeah.
Matthew (48:32):
To buy off the darkness points. And, you know, I think
there would be some peerpressure from other people
around the table saying, no.Turn that off. You can't give
them four bloody darknesspoints. Yeah.
Because there there is a danger,which I didn't really mention in
the program, but there is adanger. We already say sometimes
(48:53):
that the GM ends up with toomany darkness points and doesn't
know what to do with them. Yeah.So now, potentially, potentially
you get no darkness points ifthe role is successful and
doesn't roll any ones. But youcould potentially end up with
four or five darkness points ona
Dave (49:09):
Unlucky roll.
Matthew (49:10):
Yeah. On a pushed roll. So, I haven't worked out the
maths, but I imagine there'smore chance of earning darkness
points. So, I think mitigatingthat by spending your faith is
gonna be very important in thisgame
Dave (49:26):
Yeah.
Matthew (49:26):
For all the GM sanity.
Dave (49:27):
Yeah. I mean, I yeah. Yeah. Well, I was thinking about
that. And, again, I mean, itmight be different to a player
if they are coming to Corioliswith these rules for the first
time, but I think a player who'scome to it having played the
original darkness point mechanicmight find that it's more
important to save their faithfor pushes than it is to buy off
(49:48):
that extra darkness point ortwo.
For exactly that reason you'retalking about, that darkness
point inflation, darkness pointinflation gets to the point
where you think, well, I've gotso many anyway. What's another
one gonna matter? So so, yeah,there might be a a nuance to to
to put in there to try and tryand make make it make a player
(50:11):
more likely to spend a valuablefaith point on
Matthew (50:15):
Yeah. On buying alcohol. If we put in the thing,
which I've kind of already said,know, I'm still thinking about
whether it's a good thing, aboutwhether you start off, let us
say, with 10 faith points.
Dave (50:31):
Yep.
Matthew (50:33):
But that is one faith point for each icon specifically
related to that icon and anextra one for whichever your
icon is, the one that, you know,you were born under in in the
game system. And then I've said,we could have a rule, and I'm
I'm still undecided on this,about you can only spend a
(50:58):
darkness point. You can onlyspend faith to improve a role
that is relevant to that icon.So Yeah. You know, when if you
want to mitigate your faith, youyou are probably discarding the
icons that you think aren'tgonna come up.
If you're in the middle of agunfight, you might go, okay.
(51:19):
Well, let's get rid of themessenger icon because we're not
gonna talk our way out of thisor whatever. And and make sure
we keep the judge because Iwanna spend that on my next
thing. In the back of my mind, Ithink that's probably too
complex actually to have thatrule. But
Dave (51:34):
Yeah. It'd be
Matthew (51:34):
one that I'd want to potentially playtest a bit and
see if I'm right. So two two Ithink it'd be far too limiting.
Dave (51:41):
Possibly. Yeah. But two things I'd I'd say there. One,
there are nine icons, not 10.
Matthew (51:46):
No. So nine one for each icon plus one of your
whichever your icon is. So youget two
Dave (51:53):
Oh, okay.
Matthew (51:54):
For your icon. Oh, okay. If you're the lady of
tears
Dave (51:56):
You get two.
Matthew (51:57):
Say, was your icon in the game, you'd have two lady of
tears icons and one ofeverything else.
Dave (52:01):
Okay. That's fair enough. Yeah. I was I was a bit worried
that after all this time, you'dsuddenly thought there were 10
icons instead of nine.
Matthew (52:07):
Yeah. Well, and there's the machine icon. Are a number
of tent icons, and I'm lookingat you, Dave, in this video.
Dave (52:17):
Well, we never finished that campaign, did we? But,
anyway, so the second thing, I Ithink I agree with you
potentially that that that ideaof of making it icon specific
would become too complicated. Ifyou remember, and listeners, you
you may remember some while ago,I did something similar about,
(52:39):
trying to expand the darknesspoint mechanic into the the
pantheon more greatly, you know,more widely. So if you pushed on
a particular icon and you failedthat role, you would get a kind
of demerit with that icon. Andeventually, if you got enough
anger from the icon, somethingbad would happen.
I started I did the session zerofor a new Coriolis campaign ages
(53:04):
ago, but never got further thanthat for various reasons. But in
that one, we were trying outthat mechanic. And even in the
session zero, my brain wasthinking, this feels like too
much bookkeeping. And I thinkthis might fall into that same
category with one with one withone possible. Let me just say
that with one possibleexception.
(53:25):
I think what you could do, andthen you might have just
mentioned this actually, is havea specific deck of cards, and
they they they represent yourfaith points. And you have one
Yes. Icon, and then you put thatcard away. But then when you
gain a faith point, you pick arandom card from your discard
pile effectively.
Matthew (53:46):
Well, haven't.
Dave (53:47):
So you can never get in that case, you'd never get more
than 10 faith points, but youcould then replenish them.
Matthew (53:54):
Yeah. That might be an idea, actually. That's a that's
a thought I hadn't reallythought of. But, yeah, I was
thinking the cards might beuseful in this regard because I
love those cards. Mhmm.
I don't particularly enjoy usingthem for initiative in the way
that they were originallywritten about. And also, I'm a
bit disappointed that they don'teach feature different aspects
(54:14):
of the icons. They're
Dave (54:15):
all Yeah.
Matthew (54:15):
They're the same icon. But I thought, this is the way
the cards could go. Actually, alittle bit differently. And this
is a nod back to your pantheonidea where the discarded icon is
the one who, you know, who makestrouble for you. Yep.
So I thought when you spend afaith point, you you know,
(54:38):
you've got you've got 10 cardsin front of you, one of each
icon and and two of your ownicon. Obviously, you're
generally spending some ofthose, well, sorry. Not
obviously. Mhmm. It what I'mwhat I'm saying is if we discard
the idea that you you have tospend, say, the judge icon on on
(55:00):
a a combat role or the dancer ona on a physical combat role,
Let's forget that.
You you put an icon down thatyou to spend. If you're putting
icon and if you're putting cardssorry. I'm not making it clear.
If you're discarding cards justjust to make the revolt, that's
(55:24):
fine. But if you're discardingcards to buy off darkness, which
you might do, then the GM wouldbe would would would in in in my
way of thinking, the GM wouldhold that deck of cards.
And so he sees what you'rediscarding. And if you discard
(55:45):
something and bring it down tojust one point of darkness, The
GM and this is where the GMmight go, okay. This isn't this
is gonna be personal to you.Mhmm. You've just discarded the
dancer.
So something movement related,some movement related mishap
occurs to you right now.Immediate karmic justice. Mhmm.
(56:10):
Or and if and maybe maybe if youdon't if you don't buy off any
karma, then you go or darkness,I should say. If you don't buy
any off, then the GM is morelikely then to keep it.
Okay. I'll I'll keep that poolfor later on. Those darkness
points will come into playlater.
Dave (56:30):
Yeah. But
Matthew (56:30):
but when you do buy some off, maybe it's more likely
then that the damage to you isor the damage, but the the
mishap is more personal. Yeah.
Dave (56:40):
Yeah. No. I think you're I think you're on you got your you
have a seed of something there.I think you're onto something. I
I like the idea that rather thanjust delaying the the, you know,
the the karma by building updarkness points, there is a risk
that something would happenimmediately.
And it, you know, it would be arisk depending upon which which
(57:01):
icon you've chosen to disrespectmaybe or
Matthew (57:06):
or Exactly.
Dave (57:07):
Yeah. Impose upon in in burning off that darkness point
that you would otherwise haveyeah. Because you're because
you're basically getting thaticon to absorb that bit of bad
karma for you. But then maybethat should run the risk that
the icon goes, you you youimpudent little mortal. I don't
like that.
(57:27):
And then have some immediateresponse.
Matthew (57:29):
You're going to trip and fall or whatever. Yes.
Dave (57:32):
I like yeah. That's quite cool. I like that idea.
Matthew (57:36):
Cool. Right. Well, you know what? At some point, when
when I'm not doing my full timejob anymore, and oh, you will be
doing your full time job,hopefully. Fingers crossed.
Dave (57:48):
Well, I was gonna say sadly, sad but yes, hopefully.
Fingers crossed.
Matthew (57:52):
We might get back to running book three of the
adventure, of the campaign. Yes.
Dave (57:57):
It would be good to finish it at some point. Yeah.
Matthew (57:59):
And maybe we could playtest. I'll write up these
rules and playtest them and wecould give it a go. Yeah. And
report back here
Dave (58:07):
Indeed.
Matthew (58:08):
To our eager listeners.
Dave (58:09):
In in due course. I was gonna say in several years, but
in due course.
Matthew (58:15):
But yeah. Yeah. I think several years or due course have
have both applicable to us.Yeah. Okay.
Well, I have no idea what we'regonna be talking about in two
weeks' time.
Dave (58:27):
Me neither.
Matthew (58:28):
In fact, I do have an idea. I think I may be coming
home from Sweden in two yearstime in two weeks time at the
point we should be recordingthis.
Dave (58:37):
Okay.
Matthew (58:39):
So let us immediately say
Dave (58:43):
We might be late.
Matthew (58:45):
We may be late. I'm going to see our friend and
patron, Nicholas, in
Dave (58:52):
I'm very I'm very I'm very envious.
Matthew (58:54):
I am vaguely wondering whether I could persuade
Nicholas to give me a tour ofUppsala, and maybe I could
record it. And that may be a bitof impromptu content that we put
up in place of next week'sepisode. Particularly I'm just
thinking this right off the topof my head.
Dave (59:12):
Particularly, if if, you know, you could do a a a Wesson
tour of Ipsala.
Matthew (59:18):
Well, that's what I was thinking. Yeah. I won't I'm not
gonna say yeah. Yeah. It wouldit would be Wesson related.
Dave (59:26):
I guess it
Matthew (59:27):
could could show me the sites that really exist.
Dave (59:29):
It does rather depend on on Nicholas being willing to do
that and then having the time,of course.
Matthew (59:34):
Okay. Well, I'll I'll drop him a line. Now I've had
this idea in the middle of theprogram. Yeah. Nicholas is one
of our gold level patrons, so hemay even listen to this having
the idea.
Dave (59:45):
Yes. You know, well, if you are if you are listening,
Nicholas, I I am very envious,and I hope Matt gives you a big
hug from me. So it would'veprobably been
Matthew (59:53):
great see Right. Okay.
Dave (59:55):
Yep. Cool.
Matthew (59:57):
Obviously, not quite as big a hug as you would give him,
because I'm frankly not as bigas you are.
Dave (01:00:04):
Well, I've you're you're taller than I am, and you you
you do have some girth. So maybeyou are bigger than me.
Matthew (01:00:14):
Alright. Oh, alright. You've heard it here first,
boys.
Dave (01:00:19):
Fatter than me then. As we say. Although, I am quite fat at
the moment. Anyway, this is thisis unlistory stuff to reveal to
our our lovely listeners who'vegot better things to do than
listen to this kind of rubbish.
Matthew (01:00:31):
And until then, so keep watching the socials as to what
the contents of the next episodeare gonna be and when, frankly,
the next episode is gonna comeout. It won't be very delayed.
We will be back to our normalschedule within weeks.
Dave (01:00:45):
Yeah. Within well, yes. Indeed. Cool. Well, have a great
trip to Sweden, pal.
Matthew (01:00:52):
Thank you.
Dave (01:00:52):
And on that note, it's goodbye for me.
Matthew (01:00:56):
And it is goodbye from him.
Dave (01:00:59):
And may the icons bless your adventures.
Matthew (01:01:03):
Unless you've discarded them, of course.
Dave (01:01:06):
In which case, they hate you. You have been listening to
the effect podcast presented byFiction Suit and the RPG Gods.
Music stars on a black sea usedwith permission of Free League
publishing.
Hello and welcome to episode Dave.
Matthew (00:50):
And I'm Matthew.
Dave (00:50):
And he's Matthew. That was a long pause.
Matthew (00:54):
Yeah. No. I I I feel I that, you know, we need to add
more dead air into this episode.
Dave (00:59):
We've oh, we've we've only done this 262 times, obviously.
So you thought you'd have gotthe got the basics of it done by
now. But never mind. Carry on.
Matthew (01:08):
Well, yeah, normally, I cut in on top of you, you see. I
just give you plenty plenty oftime to finish.
Dave (01:14):
That's that's good of you. That's good of you.
Matthew (01:17):
But right now, you're cutting into my bit where I tell
everybody what's happening inthe program. We've got a new
patron to thank. Whoo. So we'llbe thanking that new patron.
I'll tell you more about them ina moment.
We've got three very differentcrowdfunders in our world of
gaming for very differentthings. Uh-huh. So that will be
interesting. We have aninteresting Old West News. I
(01:40):
know we keep saying, well, we'renot gonna run Old West News
anymore, but we have a bit of amea culpa to discuss on Old West
News.
So tune in for that. Then, aspromised, we are talking about
faith in the third horizon.
Dave (01:57):
We are.
Matthew (02:00):
So shall we crack on with with our our new patron?
Dave (02:06):
Let's yep. Indeed. Crack on.
Matthew (02:09):
So welcome, Paul Penner. I'm guessing, p e double
n a. Hello, Paul. You've joinedthe patronage. Come and join the
Discord as well.
It's a world of fun in ourDiscord.
Dave (02:23):
It is.
Matthew (02:23):
And it's the nicest place on the Internet.
Dave (02:25):
TM. Yes. Thank you, Paul. Great great to have you on
board, and thank you for yoursupport. And, yeah, look forward
to seeing you on the Discordhopefully very soon.
Matthew (02:34):
Excellent. Then then we've got three really
interesting stories in the worldof gaming. We have got three
very different crowdfunders. Thefirst one I think is very
interesting, and I'm pretty sureis kind of tariff related. Troll
Lord games are crowdfunding afactory.
Dave (02:56):
That's interesting. I hadn't heard about this until I
saw that, but I'm having a I'mgonna have a quick quick look up
look it up now. But, yes, go on.Then could
Matthew (03:07):
Troll Lord Troll Lord games do castles and crusades.
That's their that's their mainbag. Yeah. The news I got was
from the lovely Morris onEndworld. And I must admit,
unlike unlike a respectablenewspaper, I haven't actually
checked my sources on that one.
(03:29):
I just took Boris' word for it.And I'm just gonna maybe I
should actually check out. Thiswas a tweet he he put on Blue
Sky. I haven't even actuallychecked whether Enworld talks
about it at all.
Dave (03:41):
I'd like to say that, obviously, we're we're we're not
a, an accredited news anaccredited news outlet or
network. So have you everchecked your sources before? I
mean, it just
Matthew (03:55):
doesn't do.
Dave (03:56):
Doesn't feel to me like like we do that very much in
this.
Matthew (03:59):
But but maybe I should have done because I'm not
actually seeing any of this newseven on end world.
Dave (04:03):
Yeah. I mean, we are all about rumor and hearsay, aren't
we? I mean, come on. This isthis is a Yeah. Podcast.
Matthew (04:08):
We we we are all about
Dave (04:10):
We should always start the program with a disclaimer saying
that, you know, whatever we talkabout might be totally, totally
fictitious. Well, that's quite
Matthew (04:18):
a lot
Dave (04:18):
of what we talk about is totally fictitious. But you see
how I'm covering, so to give youa bit of time to
Matthew (04:24):
Right.
Dave (04:25):
To look at that.
Matthew (04:25):
Track. So I I have discovered on BakkerKit. We I I
I will put a link in the shownotes just to prove it's
actually happening. Troll LordGames, The Factory. Troll Lord
has been in the TTRPG years fortwenty five years.
Thanks to the tremendous supportof our growing community. We are
(04:46):
finally able to expand ouroperation to include our very
own print shop and warehouse.
Dave (04:51):
So
Matthew (04:54):
this is on back of kit. Their Target oh, it's
interestingly only a $100. Ididn't know you could get a
print shop that cheaply.
Dave (05:03):
Okay. That's interesting. That's very interesting.
Matthew (05:07):
You can purchase a spot on the wall of names at all the
dawn out entryway, a brickengraved with your name that
will line the walkway leading tothe factory's entrance, or a
native Arkan Arkansas how how doyou say Arkansan?
Dave (05:24):
It's Sorry.
Matthew (05:25):
That's I'm spelling it out. Arkansorn?
Dave (05:28):
It's well, I well, ark it's pronounced Arkansas
Matthew (05:34):
Yeah.
Dave (05:34):
As as the so if you're talking about what? A a a
resident of Arkansas. Arkansan,I guess. Arkansasoren? I don't
know.
I don't know. It's interesting.
Matthew (05:47):
I don't know. We've just written a game based on the
Old West. We should know how topronounce the native of
Arkansas, Smokey. Well, anyway
Dave (05:53):
Arkansas is quite east for our purposes, so, in terms of
Matthew (05:58):
what we're Yeah. Thank god for that. We don't need to
worry about you at all,residents of Arkansas, unless we
need to write your address on anorder. If so yeah. So, yeah, I
think, you know, home printingstuff.
They've got a picture of somemachines that I'm sure are gonna
cost more than a $100. I amintrigued as to how much they
(06:23):
really hope to get, becauseobviously, they they aren't
seriously thinking of building afactory for $100. We'll put a
link in the show notes if youfeel inclined to help.
Dave (06:32):
Yeah. Do say it does say here committed to expanding
their print facility. So I don'tknow. It seems that they've got
one already. It's not likethey're getting one from
scratch.
It seems. But, yeah, you'd thinkyou'd need tens of thousands for
something like that or more,wouldn't you?
Matthew (06:53):
Or more. Yeah.
Dave (06:55):
But okay. Well, good luck to them. Think, you know and
yes, I think you're you'reabsolutely right. It's almost
certainly to do with not wantingto source stuff in China or the
EU. Particularly now again thatthat that that Trump is talking
about 30% tariffs on theEuropean Union, which I saw,
which is If that becomes thething, that'll be an issue for
(07:18):
us in the not too distantfuture.
If we are producing, printingour books in Lithuania. So I
suspect it's specifically inresponse to that, and I guess if
you can afford to do it, it's agood way of doing it. But I
guess it's a big investment ifif you don't if you don't get
(07:39):
the return.
Matthew (07:41):
Yeah. So just reading more about the story, they have
actually been printing in housesince 02/2005, printing their
soft cover books in house. Mhmm.Their hardcover books are
printed at a US factory. So myoriginal assumption that this
was Trump based or, shall I say,tariff based
Dave (08:00):
Yeah.
Matthew (08:00):
Is although they do mention all of tariffs, we're
acutely aware of the dislocationthat recent economic turns have
caused. Mhmm. But given theprinting in The US anyway
anyway, it may be a good time toto do a Kickstarter like this
and expand the the print shop.
Dave (08:24):
Well, I guess it's an interesting one as well, because
what what do backers actuallyget? Is this just a way for the
community to support thiscompany in becoming
Matthew (08:33):
The book has got a named tree. There are 10 spots
where you can have a tree in thegrove around the factory, which
I guess comes with a little signsaying that you paid for it.
Dave (08:45):
So I I mean, I guess my I guess my point is that actually
you you don't get a product atthe end of this. What you get is
Matthew (08:50):
You don't get a book.
Dave (08:51):
What you get is the satisfaction of of having helped
this company, you know,basically with a capital
investment towards theirprinting plant. Which is cool,
that's fine, it's just that it'smore of a an altruistic thing
rather than a customertransaction thing, which
(09:12):
obviously a lot of Kickstartersare. Because you expect to
Matthew (09:15):
get Which may be why they're not doing it on
Kickstarter, because Kickstarterexpressly forbids that sort of,
you know, fundraisingKickstarter. There's gonna be a
product Yeah. Behind theKickstarter, I think. So
Dave (09:34):
Oh, really?
Matthew (09:35):
So, yeah, read all about it on low end on the link
that we'll put in the shownotes. Yeah. And so far, as of
recording, they have made$14,900 from 185 backers. Yeah.
(09:55):
And they've got thirty two daysleft.
Dave (09:58):
Cool.
Matthew (10:00):
Now there's another interesting backer kit. Oh, I
can't remember if it's on backerkit. This is from not a troll
lord, but a
Dave (10:09):
A green A green Ronin.
Matthew (10:11):
Green color. So let's let's let's look that one up as
well.
Dave (10:17):
I know. I'm doing we're we're very well prepared today.
Here we are, spending our timejust looking things up on on on
Google.
Matthew (10:25):
The Green Running Legal Defense Fund is this one. We
will put a link in the shownotes. It's on GoFundMe, which
is Right. Yeah. Not, again,Kickstarter, and this is
precisely
Dave (10:41):
just crowdfunding thing, isn't it? Yeah.
Matthew (10:43):
Crowdfunding thing that this is the sort of site that
lets people do. This sort ofcrowdfunding. Yeah. So far,
they've raised more than TrollLord Games. They've got 36,000
US dollars.
And this is about the subject wetalked about a couple of weeks
ago, or was it even four weeksago, where dime Diamond
(11:06):
Distribution is claiming thestock that it was holding in its
warehouse for other publishers,but hadn't actually paid those
publishers for any of that stockNo. Is now trying to sell that
stock to cover its debts.
Dave (11:23):
Yes. Now trying to claim that that stock for certain
legal legal
Matthew (11:27):
reasons is
Dave (11:28):
actually theirs to sell and keep the profit from and not
the owned not owned by theactual companies that produce
them.
Matthew (11:37):
Yeah.
Dave (11:38):
Seems a bit unfair and maybe, you know, a sign of
desperation for Diamond of thesituation that they're in.
Matthew (11:48):
Yeah. Absolutely. Good luck to them as well. Because I
think it's quite important.
Dave (11:55):
Yeah. It's a it's it's a terrible precedent to set if if
the if the if distributionwarehouse and the company can
just say, oh, we're we'rerunning out of money. So
actually, all this stock thatwe're holding for you and you're
paying us to keep, that's oursnow. We're gonna do with it what
we like. That doesn't seemterribly fair and equitable.
(12:16):
No. You would think I mean,maybe, you could argue that, you
know, the the the companies thatown those stock might have to
pay to have it moved somewhereelse. But, you know, if if the
distributor's, you know,bankrupt and has got no money,
but still Yeah. That that'sstill a potentially, if you've
(12:36):
got a lot of stock, that's apotentially punishing extra cost
that you haven't factored in. Soit's a yeah.
It's a it's a tough one. I mean,I I obviously feel for for
Diamond for going bankrupt, butI'm not this is this isn't the
way to to try and rescuethemselves, I don't think.
Matthew (12:53):
No. No. I mean, in a way, though, it's not
necessarily Diamond, of course.Actually, it's whoever Diamond's
administrators are.
Dave (13:06):
Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew (13:07):
There will be an accountancy company that's gone
in and gone, we think we cansell this off and pay off the
people to whom.
Dave (13:16):
Yes. That's a fair
Matthew (13:17):
owes money.
Dave (13:18):
That's a fair point. And and I guess potentially, if you
look at it in a very sterile andwhat's the right way of putting
it? Ruthless ruthless way. So ifyou look at this from a, you
know, a very sterile andruthless, you know, way, you
(13:40):
could possibly argue that theaccountants are simply doing
what their responsibility is,which is to get the best for
Matthew (13:48):
for Oh, absolutely.
Dave (13:49):
For the investors in the company and all of that. And if
this is actually seemingly alegal thing that they are doing,
then it might not be veryethical or moral, but in strict
legal terms it might bereasonable is the wrong word. It
might be something that they canlegally try and do. Which means
(14:11):
that, you know, that loophole inwhatever legislation is
obviously an issue because thatshouldn't be there. But then,
know, in the wider scheme ofthings, what you are doing is is
severely damaging the people whoare good customers of that
business a desperate attempt topay off the investors in that
business when that business hasgone out of out of business.
Yeah. Means business in onesentence. That's definitely not,
(14:35):
you know, an ethical way ofgoing about doing it. But I
guess in many cases where moneyis concerned, in many countries,
ethics are less important thanthe bottom line to to a lot of
people. Yeah.
Sadly. No.
Matthew (14:51):
But, you know, given given, as you know, we've been
talking about distribution andAmerican distribution, and we
know how much it costs as itwere, you hardly one, I feel,
can hardly break even with anAmerican distributor unless one
puts a lot of stock in theirwarehouses and, obviously, and
(15:12):
that they managed to sell it.Yeah. And you managed to help
them to sell it. So then havingthat stock taken from you turns
it immediately from a only justmaking profit to making a
massive loss. Yes.
So I have every sympathy forGreen
Dave (15:28):
Yep.
Matthew (15:28):
Ronnen Me too. Whatever the rights and wrongs legally
and ethically are.
Dave (15:35):
Well, you know, I think, I mean, it it it's we I think the
rights and wrongs are are prettyclear. I think it's it's it's
it's whether there is a, youknow, unfair stroke
inappropriate stroke,exploitative loophole in the law
that this company is trying totake take advantage of. But,
(15:56):
yeah, completely completelybehind the the the the companies
who are now effectively beingripped off.
Matthew (16:03):
Right. Now I've also got a crowdfunder, but this is
for something really quiteunusual, at least in this week.
This is for a new game.
Dave (16:13):
Crowdfunder for a new game? Never.
Matthew (16:15):
Yeah. Who'd have thought that?
Dave (16:17):
Exactly. Yes.
Matthew (16:21):
Now this isn't actually live yet, but it's just got up,
and I like it so much. I'mtalking about it now. Mhmm. It's
from your friend of mine, Dave.It's from Paul Badowski of All
Rolled Up and desanctioned fame.
Dave (16:36):
Indeed.
Matthew (16:37):
And it looks like a fabulous thing that I chuckled
at when he first started I thinkthe word is skeeting about it on
Blue Sky. Uh-huh. Don't don'tdon't give me that look. Don't
roll your eyes at me, Dave. Whenhe when he when he started
(16:58):
posting about it on Blue Sky, Ithought, that is a very amusing
title.
And then magically, it's allcome together, and he's actually
put a Kickstarter page orKickstarter preview page, I
should say, up. And there willbe a campaign. And this is for
the marvelous game, Kirkboard.
Dave (17:19):
Kirkboard.
Matthew (17:21):
See, my my my Swedish is getting better. I almost got
that right.
Dave (17:25):
Yeah. So it's a So Yeah. It's spelled
Matthew (17:28):
Carry on, Tate.
Dave (17:29):
Spelled c o r k, but the o is actually a Swedish letter
called an So you pronounce it asso it's Kirk Kirkboard. Yeah.
Anyway, you'll you'll you'llwanna you'll I can feel you just
bursting to gush about this gameand about what what you'd like
Matthew (17:44):
to actually say. Really, the thing I want to gush
about is Kirkborg. If you'regonna do a version of Mortaporg,
of which we have seen
Dave (17:52):
Many.
Matthew (17:52):
Very many Morborgs, then doing and, you know, let's
talk about this. This muck borgis out of Sweden. What else
comes out of Sweden? And indeed,pretty much all of Scandinavia
now. Everyone's getting in onthe act.
And that is Nordic policeprocedurals.
Dave (18:10):
Yes.
Matthew (18:11):
And so Kirk Borg is the mork borg of Nordic police
procedurals.
Dave (18:17):
With select
Matthew (18:18):
I have no idea what it's gonna play like. Yeah.
Yeah. And and very likely to behorror as well. So, yeah, I I
don't wanna be the sole gusherhere.
You can gush a bit about it too,Dave, even though you've only
just heard about it.
Dave (18:35):
Well, I I it looks nice. I I I've enjoyed some of the books
of that that Paul has has listedas inspiration, like Stig
Larsson and Joe Nesbahr. So,yeah, I think it would be cool.
I mean and obviously, I mean,Paul's great, and his work is
(18:59):
great. So this is gonna be good.
Yeah. I I'm I'm I'm I don't know
Matthew (19:07):
whether Paul's work is great. I mean, our work is
great. Paul's work can only bequite good.
Dave (19:11):
Paul's work is great. Our work is is like, you know,
chef's kiss, you know. So Imean,
Matthew (19:16):
so Yeah. Yeah. Not not
Dave (19:17):
to Okay. Not to, you know, build up of, you know
Matthew (19:21):
Although, hang on. Hang on. And for somebody to question
our research.
Dave (19:26):
Well, mistakes can happen, and we will talk about that in a
minute. But no. It looks lovely.It's so so it's on it's it's got
a notification page up onKickstarter at the moment. As as
you know, as some people know,I'm I'm interested in police
procedurals.
Mhmm. I am thinking aboutsomething along those lines for
(19:49):
for us that affect. Well, morethan thinking about. I've done
quite a lot of work on andalmost ready to start
playtesting. So yeah, I lovethat idea.
Is an interesting thing. So I'mtrying to a reasonable sensible
thought out of all this, onlyjust having learned about this
(20:11):
twenty minutes ago.
Matthew (20:13):
Shall I intercede though, Dave?
Dave (20:14):
No. Let me just finish my point before I before I forget
it. How many how many Mercboyvariants are we going to get?
And when is one too many? Butyou could also say the same for
u zero engine, because you get alot of u zero engine variants
and when is one too many forthat as well.
Matthew (20:38):
Yeah. But, You can also say the same for d twenty fifth
edition, I think. There's a lotof variance to that.
Dave (20:46):
Well, yeah, of course. Yeah. That is very that is very
true. And I guess it just goesto prove how good the original
work by Pella and Nirhan wasthat, Mortbjorg has spawned such
a, such an enthusiastic,offspring, in all sorts of
(21:06):
different areas. So, yeah.
Yes. I'm I'm not sure. See, whyI was struggling to get my
thoughts together was becauseI'm not really sure what point
I'm making other than observingthe fact that there are a lot. I
wasn't I wasn't saying it was abad thing necessarily.
Matthew (21:23):
But You're speaking as a man that's played none of
them. And my argument will be
Dave (21:29):
Play it.
Matthew (21:30):
There's gonna carry on being Morgborg variants until
there's one that you, Dave,actually sit down and play.
Dave (21:36):
Yeah. That's What
Matthew (21:37):
they're trying to do is find something that will make
you pick up a Morcbog.
Dave (21:42):
I I do own quite a lot of them.
Matthew (21:45):
Yeah. Yeah. But you've not played any of them,
Dave (21:47):
have you? Played any of them. No. That is true. I should
get I should do that.
I should take that as a as a asa oh god. My my brain this
morning. My excuse is that I'vegot this bloody interview
tomorrow and I've been preparedfor that, so my brain is a bit
frazzled.
Matthew (22:03):
Right. Okay.
Dave (22:05):
But, yeah.
Matthew (22:05):
I'll let you off that one.
Dave (22:06):
I can't
Matthew (22:07):
Think about it. What is the risk assessment of you not
playing Mork Board a cork board?
Dave (22:12):
I can do a risk assessment on that. Yes. And then the easy
mitigation of that risk is toplay the game. So Yes.
Matthew (22:20):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Dave (22:23):
Maybe I should
Matthew (22:24):
Right. But the first thing one needs to do is back
it. And, course, there are risksassociated with backing it. But
we will put a link to thepreview page in the show notes,
and everybody else can maketheir own risk assessment and
decide whether or not they wantto pack it.
Dave (22:38):
Indeed. Indeed. Never guess what my job's about, or
this job I'm going for anyway.But yeah. Cool.
Matthew (22:47):
Cool. Cool. Cool. I'm keeping the details of your job
entirely secret as is befittingDave.
Dave (22:51):
That is fine. Yes. Yes.
Matthew (22:54):
Now yes, shall we move on to a thing that has been
slightly foreshadowed in ourprevious segment?
Dave (23:03):
Yes. Indeed. So the other day, we
Matthew (23:08):
I got a letter.
Dave (23:09):
You got a letter.
Matthew (23:11):
An actual paper letter in an envelope. Three pages of
letter. I I was so excited justby this form of communication.
Dave (23:21):
Yeah.
Matthew (23:22):
And and I'm not I'm not taking a piss here. I really
liked it.
Dave (23:25):
No. I agree. I agree as well. And for for the for the
for so the letter was from, agentleman called Charles King.
Matthew (23:34):
And Who's one of our backers.
Dave (23:36):
And he was he was saying that while he was really
enjoying the book and that in ina in a in a a book that's 300
pages long, the way we'vetreated the history is actually
very good, and we are getting itright across the board mostly.
He did pull out one specific andquite important, error that we'd
(24:01):
made. And so I think the there'stwo things I want to do here.
One is to basically call outthat error and explain what it
is. Well, three things.
Yeah. So so, basically, call outthe error. Secondly, explain
because because this is mydrafting. It was my writing. I
did I did, you know, most of thehistorical research on things
(24:23):
like slavery and and and that.
But so my mayor, Culper. I'llexplain how, why.
Matthew (24:30):
It's nothing to do with me. I'm internally blameless in
this matter. Is that what you'resaying?
Dave (24:34):
I'm well, I'm I I wrote the line. I wrote that
paragraph. So I'm I'm happy toDid write that line. I'm happy
to accept the the fault in thisinstance. But oh, yeah.
I I will do a little bit ofexplanation about how that came
about.
Matthew (24:50):
Yeah. I think that is that is in itself interesting.
Dave (24:53):
And then and then thirdly, we are gonna fix that problem.
So we, know so first andforemost, in in the book, we
obviously talk quite a bit aboutthings like the experience of
native Americans and the,African American experience. So
obviously in that we talk aboutslavery. The book isn't about
(25:13):
the American civil war, but weobviously reference it because
the American civil war was thethe ultimate vehicle through
which, slavery was abolished. Imade a comment in, in the book
that, there's a commonmisconception that the war was
started over slavery.
(25:35):
Now that is is an incorrectcomment. My my explanation for
how that happened is I gotcaught up very much, cos I've
been thinking about it, I gotcaught up very much in the Union
perspective. And while it isabsolutely clear that the the
(25:56):
driving reason behind the thesecessionist states and the
Confederate states was states'rights. And the key state right
that they were fighting over wastheir right, as they saw it, to
have slavery in their in theirstates. At the start of the war,
from the Union perspective,slavery wasn't a wasn't the key
(26:21):
reason they they they werefighting.
They were war? Yeah. They wereoriginally fighting. Mean, war
was started by an attack by theConfederates. So kind of the
Union was forced into the war,you could argue, I guess.
But they were originallyfighting to preserve the Union.
That was their that was theirnumber one objective when the
war broke out. In fact, youknow, at the start of the war,
(26:45):
Lincoln promised not tointerfere with interfere with
slavery in the hope of keepingborder states who were still
with the union. Undecided. Yeah.
Keep them loyal to the union. Itwas only a couple of years or
yeah. Eighteen months into thewar when he may after the Battle
(27:05):
of Antiam, he made a preliminaryproclamation in September,
basically saying to theConfederate states, surrender in
a hundred days or I'm gonna freeall the slaves. They obviously
didn't surrender in a hundreddays. So on the January 1, he he
announced the the EmancipationProclamation, and that was when
(27:31):
the focus of the war changedfrom the union side to just
preserving the union toabolishing slavery at the same
time.
So my mistake was in trying tosum up five years of war and
probably two hundred years ofevents leading up to it, in in
(27:51):
one or two lines, I got veryfocused on the Union side and
put that comment because at thestart of the war, from a Union
perspective, it wasn't aboutslavery. It was about preserving
the Union. But Charles isabsolutely right to say that the
war was started because theConfederates were being
(28:13):
uncompromising over what theysaw as their rights to have
slaves in their states. Thesecessionist proclamations that
they made, I haven't seen themall, but I, you know, I
understand that they were allreferencing slavery as as a key
thing and their rights to it. Somea culpa, that statement was
(28:34):
wrong.
I completely accept that inreading that paragraph, it gives
the the the wrong impressionabout how the war started. I get
I get that. Mea culpa. So sothat's that's that's how it came
about, because I got veryfocused. And I think the sources
I was reading were looking at itmuch more from a union
perspective than a confederateperspective, and that was my
(28:55):
mistake.
What are gonna do about it? SoI've already redrafted that
paragraph to correct that error.
Matthew (29:01):
I mean, the interesting little little sidebar before we
get into what we're gonna doabout it is that you were
already thinking that becausewe're researching Gold Country
Yes. You were saying that yourreading in Gold Country was
already making you think, oh, alittle bit differently
Dave (29:21):
about Yeah. That You're absolutely right. I was I was
already beginning to feel alittle bit uncomfortable about
that statement Because again,the issue of slavery is such an
important one in sort of '18late 1840s early 1850s
California particularly. It wasvery clear actually how how
(29:43):
important that basically, thatreading was giving me a much
better perspective from theConfederate perspective or the
Southern States perspective,which is then making me think,
okay, I've I've I might havemissed something here. And it's
a big miss.
I accept that. But
Matthew (30:00):
yeah. And, of course, in histographically, quite a
dangerous mistake as well, isn'tit? Or quite dangerous
submission. I mean, it was ashortcut. Let's face it.
You know, we're not writing ahistory book here. This was just
a paragraph summarizing a verycomplex and nuanced argument.
Dave (30:20):
Yes.
Matthew (30:20):
Yeah. But, actually, it gives a false impression that
it's actually quite a dangerousone and has proved quite
dangerous in the twentieth and,I guess, even in the twenty
first centuries.
Dave (30:31):
Yes. Absolutely. I mean, we need to we need to recognize
the thing that I kind of failedto to to get into that one
sentence that actually, like yousay, there's racism was behind
the, you know, the Confederatestand and and and led to their
position on on the war. So,yeah, completely accept that.
Matthew (30:53):
So What are you doing about it, Dave?
Dave (30:56):
Yep. So I've I've already redrafted that paragraph through
to correct that error. We willinclude that in in PDF and then
any future printings willobviously have the correct text
within it.
Matthew (31:13):
Yeah.
Dave (31:14):
We haven't talked about what else we might want to do
something on Facebook and othersocials just to draw attention
to this. And thank Charles forhis for his his excellent letter
drawing and drawing thisoversight to our attention and
just making sure that we wekinda correct the record as it
were.
Matthew (31:34):
Yeah. So I thought the the first thing we should do I
mean, you've rewritten theparagraph, as we say, and,
obviously, I've gotta see tryand make sure it fits into the
layout without screwingeverything up.
Dave (31:46):
Yeah. It should it should do. And it can easily be
modified slightly if if it's notquite if it's a bit too long or
a bit too short. That's that's a
Matthew (31:53):
really easy But I thought before that, we ought to
send that over to Charles andjust say, look, this is what we
think he was saying. So,Charles, if you're listening,
although you sent us a lovelypaper letter, which I'm I'm
sorry. I I I'm so enthusiasticabout this letter, but it just
it made everybody. It made mywife think about how few letters
(32:15):
we get nowadays
Dave (32:16):
I know.
Matthew (32:16):
Or send and how nice it was. But I probably will for for
for speed sent, I will send itto you on your email address
that we've got from Kickstarter.Yeah. And hopefully, you'll get
it then. And I will includeDave's text in there.
And just for your comment onbefore we put it into the PDF.
(32:40):
And, yeah, you're right. Weshould think about whether we
want to do something in oursocial channels as well.
Dave (32:45):
Yeah. It's probably worth drawing just just just kind of
replaying this conversationbriefly on on the social socials
just so so we, you know, we getthat we get that correction out
there.
Matthew (33:01):
Yeah. And and then if we get to reprint it, which I'd
like to be able to get to do, weobviously, the reprint will come
out with the with the changechange text as well. Yeah. Yeah.
We may is given that you werealso in parallel, kind of
(33:23):
discovering this in
Dave (33:28):
In the research of Gold Country. Yeah.
Matthew (33:30):
Gold Country. Do you think there's gonna be a section
in Gold Country that talks aboutit in more detail? I mean,
that's set before the civil war,so it's not gonna be
specifically about the civilwar. But but
Dave (33:41):
I think I'm not sure. I I I think it depends what context
we need to give to put thesituation in 1848 to 1855
California into the rightcontext. Yeah. So it probably
needs something. Yes.
I think so. But, yeah, we'llwe'll be be a bit more a bit
(34:03):
more careful on that one. But,you know, I I hold my hands up
on that, but, you know, we haveworked pretty hard, and this is
this is very much an oversight.But I'm pleased that most of the
stuff we've been putting out interms of the history has been
getting a good reception andpeople are.
Matthew (34:20):
Yeah. But but, you know, we did say, and have
always said since the verybeginning of this, talking about
this product or this project,you know, we've said, we're keen
to learn. And, specifically,Charles, you know, cites our
comment on page 12 that tell usif we get stuff wrong
Dave (34:42):
Yes.
Matthew (34:42):
As his reason for writing us a letter in the first
place. So
Dave (34:45):
Yeah.
Matthew (34:47):
So thank you Charles.
Dave (34:48):
No, think definitely. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm very
pleased that, you know, it wasit was was the absolutely from
my point of view, was absolutelythe right way to go about
holding us to account for thingswhen we've made an error. So
thank you, Charles, for doingthat.
That was that was greatlyappreciated.
Matthew (35:07):
Brilliant. Okay. Now shall we move on to things that
I think we got right in in inThursday onwards? And that is
our faith rules. Yeah.
And whether they can fit intoCoriolis, the third horizon.
(35:30):
Friend of the show, Jim, ofraspy raven fame, was musing on
the feedback he collected at theend of his run through of
Emissary Lost, the first part ofthe Mercy of the Icons campaign.
We will put a link to histhoughts as he's described them
on his blog in the show notes.But the first draft, as it were,
(35:53):
was on our Patreon exclusiveDiscord server. His final
question was an interesting one.
Given that Coriolis was the veryfirst adaptation of the year
zero engine, is there anothermore recent version that might
(36:15):
serve the third horizon better?My flippant answer was, of
course, the very best iterationof the year zero engine, our
very own tales of the Old West.But then I realized the answer
(36:36):
isn't as flippant and throwawayas I had intended. One of the
things that attracts us to thethird horizon is the religion.
Longtime listeners will haveheard us frequently marveling at
the way players have theircharacters go to chapel before
any planned encounter to pray tothe right icon and vehemently
(37:00):
defending the darkness pointpush system because it is actual
in game proof of the existenceof the icons.
Tales of the Old West is theonly other Year Zero game, at
least that I know of, that hasmechanics for faith. And I
(37:22):
thought, you could just aboutdrop the faith powered push
system into Coriolis with only afew changes to the mishaps
table. For example, you wouldhave to change the results that
damage your attributes as youdon't take that sort of damage
directly to your attributes inthe more pulpy world of the
(37:43):
third horizon. But, actually,it's not that simple, is it?
There are, I think, threeaspects of icon worship that
make the darkness point pushmechanic really reflect that
world.
One, it's pulpy. Damage does notchange your chances of success,
(38:08):
and players are likely to earndarkness with abandon in the
hope of scoring that vitalcritical hit. Two, the cost is
not individual. Individualplayers don't necessarily
experience the, the bad karma ofthe darkness points that they
(38:29):
have earned. The whole party orother characters can suffer the
results of your darkness pointspend.
Indeed, darkness points fuel thesupernatural powers of some of
the creatures. The icons arespecific. We tried very hard in
(38:52):
tales of the Old West to makethe faith mechanic as accessible
as possible so your faith canfeel just like your self
confidence if you don't want tobe religious. But in Coriolis,
faith is not just about theicons. It's about a pantheon of
icons.
Prepare for an encounter bypraying to the right icon, and
(39:16):
you get an extra dice in yourpushed roll. Two, if you prayed
at a chapel. So let's look atthese three aspects and think
what we might change in thetales of the old West faith push
mechanic to make it betterreflect the third horizon. First
(39:38):
up, pulpiness. In our playtestexperience, Tales of the Old
West players will hoard theirfaith, more willing to accept
failure than spend a faith pointas quickly as choreoist players
earn darkness points.
One reason for this is there'sno limit to the darkness points
(39:59):
a Coriolis character can spend,but a Tails player only gets
four to start at least. They canearn more, but it takes time.
Now I'm looking for a quick fixhere and the quickest would be
simply to say a push earns adarkness point for the GM like
the original, but that's notworking for me. So let's play
(40:24):
test an even more simplesolution. You start with more
faith points.
While we're on that subject, ofcourse, the list of actions that
earn you extra faith might haveto change too. For example,
grooming your horse is not athing that happens in the third
horizon. Tending a garden mightbe. But importantly, we limit
(40:49):
the number of times you can takeeach action in Tales of the Old
West. I wonder if that limit isrequired in Coriolis.
Of course, the other reasonTales players are more reluctant
to push their role is the fearof direct consequences or
(41:10):
trouble as we call it, but thatleads into the second issue.
Trouble should, of course, bedarkness in Corviolis, and I
think the first five dice inevery pool will now be darkness
dice. And the simplest solutionwould be that ones on pushed
(41:32):
darkness dice generate nottrouble, but darkness points for
the GM, which means now we mightget nothing from a pushed roll,
but we might get as many as fivedarkness points. Of course,
players will all be able to buyoff darkness by spending more
faith. Will they though?
(41:54):
If the consequences of thedarkness are spread across the
whole party and pushed into thefuture? I like to think there
will be at least some peerpressure to buy off darkness,
but I think it might help if theGM has options to lay some
darkness onto the prayingcharacter directly as well as
(42:20):
storing some darkness up to fuelfuture events and the powers of
supernatural creatures. And Ihave some thoughts about that.
The third thing I wanted toaddress was making faith more
icon specific for Coriolis. Andthat's the answer.
(42:42):
Make each faith point iconspecific. Play starts with every
character holding nine faithpoints, not four, one for each
icon. They are blessed by allthe icons or maybe 10 points.
They could have an extra pointfrom their assigned icon. You
(43:06):
could use the icon cards theymake for the Kickstarter.
Or now the license is available,somebody could make a new set
with different aspects of eachicon represented. When you pray,
you hand a card to the GM. I didthink for a moment that maybe
(43:28):
you had to have a card for therelevant icon for the skill you
are using, but I think that'sfar too limiting. Though maybe
using the right icon for theprayer, the judge for shooting,
say, means you avoid directconsequences if darkness is
rolled, and maybe it's when youuse an incorrect icon for the
(43:52):
action that you're taking,that's when the GM gets to spend
some darkness points to give youa direct consequence. For
example, using the dancer for ashooting role might mean you
drop your gun.
If you discard other icons toreduce the darkness of a role,
(44:12):
then maybe the GM has morechoice as to what the
consequences are. It's notcomplete yet, and I feel it
needs testing in play, but Ithink we have a framework here
to work with. And finally,finally, an alternative push
mechanic for Coriolis, the thirdhorizon, that fits with the
(44:34):
spirit of the setting?
Dave (44:38):
Yeah. So that yeah. It very interesting. Very
interesting. I think, a coupleof things I would I would draw
out.
Firstly, yeah. I mean, you'reabsolutely right that the
darkness point mechanic reallydoes reflect the Coriolis world.
But I I I, you know, I don'tthink that precludes the option
(45:00):
of using faith. No. Talk aboutit being, you know, Koryo's
being a bit more pulpy.
Damage doesn't change yourchances of success. But, also,
you know, you'd already saidthat you would need to change
the way, you know, the damage isdone because obviously it would
just you know, it wouldn'treduce your chances of success
because it would go against yourhealth or your mental Yeah. Your
(45:23):
mental stats.
Matthew (45:25):
Which may be fine, actually. You know? I think I
don't think we necessarily needto look at changing the damage
system as well, but we do needto think about consequences that
give you a temporary knockbackin those attributes in Tales of
the Old West, which I think arevery in keeping with that genre.
Yeah. Not necessarily in keepingwith the slightly more pulpy
(45:49):
space opera y feel of Coriolis.
Dave (45:53):
Yeah. So I think I think I think the other, you know, the
the other points you make isperhaps a slightly more
pertinent, particularly the onearound the the darkness point
cost not being an individualcost. Because, you know, I think
that's one thing that's reallygood about darkness points and
Coriolis that, you know, you'rebuilding up bad karma, but
actually that bad karma mightreflect onto somebody else
(46:13):
rather than you. Yeah. And as agroup, it makes you there
there's there's there's there'san in game way of being punished
if you push too much becauseyour other players will be
telling you off or giving you ahard time over over, oh, look
how many darkness points you'vegiven us now kind of thing,
(46:35):
because it's just quite a fundynamic.
I do like your idea of possiblyhaving both where, you know,
ones result in darkness points.Although, I'm not sure. You
saying that those darknesspoints would then that would be
just what we would call trouble?And so
Matthew (46:56):
Yeah. So yeah. So Yeah. Obviously, I think there'd be a
terminology change here. I Iswitched in the in the text
between trouble and darknessjust because we're talking about
a system that's caused ittrouble.
Yeah. And we're moving to asystem that talks about darkness
points. So I imagine in thefinal version of this, it would
talk about a number of darknessdice that you alongside your
(47:21):
other ones, and that you'd you'dpick up on darkness. You know,
you you you or or or some otherword that's dark sounding.
Dave (47:30):
I think darkness would work really well, actually, just
just replacing trouble fordarkness. I think that works
with the theme very nicely.Yeah.
Matthew (47:39):
And yeah. And yeah. Just and and there's there's two
things. I mean, obviously, onecould do a whole new edition of
the Third Horizon where you youreally move the mechanics in.
But I think with this, what I'mlooking for is and already, you
know, there are ways, I think,Jim himself had different ways
of dealing with darkness points.
(47:59):
We've discussed it frequently onour program. Yes. But I'm saying
that here's something that coulddrop in and just this is now
your store of darkness points isthe number is the is the number
of ones that the the playersroll when they when they push
their dice. But giving them theopportunity to spend their own
(48:24):
you know, to spend their faithin in the way they do in Old
West to try and mitigate that.
Dave (48:30):
To to buy off those darkness points. Yeah.
Matthew (48:32):
To buy off the darkness points. And, you know, I think
there would be some peerpressure from other people
around the table saying, no.Turn that off. You can't give
them four bloody darknesspoints. Yeah.
Because there there is a danger,which I didn't really mention in
the program, but there is adanger. We already say sometimes
(48:53):
that the GM ends up with toomany darkness points and doesn't
know what to do with them. Yeah.So now, potentially, potentially
you get no darkness points ifthe role is successful and
doesn't roll any ones. But youcould potentially end up with
four or five darkness points ona
Dave (49:09):
Unlucky roll.
Matthew (49:10):
Yeah. On a pushed roll. So, I haven't worked out the
maths, but I imagine there'smore chance of earning darkness
points. So, I think mitigatingthat by spending your faith is
gonna be very important in thisgame
Dave (49:26):
Yeah.
Matthew (49:26):
For all the GM sanity.
Dave (49:27):
Yeah. I mean, I yeah. Yeah. Well, I was thinking about
that. And, again, I mean, itmight be different to a player
if they are coming to Corioliswith these rules for the first
time, but I think a player who'scome to it having played the
original darkness point mechanicmight find that it's more
important to save their faithfor pushes than it is to buy off
(49:48):
that extra darkness point ortwo.
For exactly that reason you'retalking about, that darkness
point inflation, darkness pointinflation gets to the point
where you think, well, I've gotso many anyway. What's another
one gonna matter? So so, yeah,there might be a a nuance to to
to put in there to try and tryand make make it make a player
(50:11):
more likely to spend a valuablefaith point on
Matthew (50:15):
Yeah. On buying alcohol. If we put in the thing,
which I've kind of already said,know, I'm still thinking about
whether it's a good thing, aboutwhether you start off, let us
say, with 10 faith points.
Dave (50:31):
Yep.
Matthew (50:33):
But that is one faith point for each icon specifically
related to that icon and anextra one for whichever your
icon is, the one that, you know,you were born under in in the
game system. And then I've said,we could have a rule, and I'm
I'm still undecided on this,about you can only spend a
(50:58):
darkness point. You can onlyspend faith to improve a role
that is relevant to that icon.So Yeah. You know, when if you
want to mitigate your faith, youyou are probably discarding the
icons that you think aren'tgonna come up.
If you're in the middle of agunfight, you might go, okay.
(51:19):
Well, let's get rid of themessenger icon because we're not
gonna talk our way out of thisor whatever. And and make sure
we keep the judge because Iwanna spend that on my next
thing. In the back of my mind, Ithink that's probably too
complex actually to have thatrule. But
Dave (51:34):
Yeah. It'd be
Matthew (51:34):
one that I'd want to potentially playtest a bit and
see if I'm right. So two two Ithink it'd be far too limiting.
Dave (51:41):
Possibly. Yeah. But two things I'd I'd say there. One,
there are nine icons, not 10.
Matthew (51:46):
No. So nine one for each icon plus one of your
whichever your icon is. So youget two
Dave (51:53):
Oh, okay.
Matthew (51:54):
For your icon. Oh, okay. If you're the lady of
tears
Dave (51:56):
You get two.
Matthew (51:57):
Say, was your icon in the game, you'd have two lady of
tears icons and one ofeverything else.
Dave (52:01):
Okay. That's fair enough. Yeah. I was I was a bit worried
that after all this time, you'dsuddenly thought there were 10
icons instead of nine.
Matthew (52:07):
Yeah. Well, and there's the machine icon. Are a number
of tent icons, and I'm lookingat you, Dave, in this video.
Dave (52:17):
Well, we never finished that campaign, did we? But,
anyway, so the second thing, I Ithink I agree with you
potentially that that that ideaof of making it icon specific
would become too complicated. Ifyou remember, and listeners, you
you may remember some while ago,I did something similar about,
(52:39):
trying to expand the darknesspoint mechanic into the the
pantheon more greatly, you know,more widely. So if you pushed on
a particular icon and you failedthat role, you would get a kind
of demerit with that icon. Andeventually, if you got enough
anger from the icon, somethingbad would happen.
I started I did the session zerofor a new Coriolis campaign ages
(53:04):
ago, but never got further thanthat for various reasons. But in
that one, we were trying outthat mechanic. And even in the
session zero, my brain wasthinking, this feels like too
much bookkeeping. And I thinkthis might fall into that same
category with one with one withone possible. Let me just say
that with one possibleexception.
(53:25):
I think what you could do, andthen you might have just
mentioned this actually, is havea specific deck of cards, and
they they they represent yourfaith points. And you have one
Yes. Icon, and then you put thatcard away. But then when you
gain a faith point, you pick arandom card from your discard
pile effectively.
Matthew (53:46):
Well, haven't.
Dave (53:47):
So you can never get in that case, you'd never get more
than 10 faith points, but youcould then replenish them.
Matthew (53:54):
Yeah. That might be an idea, actually. That's a that's
a thought I hadn't reallythought of. But, yeah, I was
thinking the cards might beuseful in this regard because I
love those cards. Mhmm.
I don't particularly enjoy usingthem for initiative in the way
that they were originallywritten about. And also, I'm a
bit disappointed that they don'teach feature different aspects
(54:14):
of the icons. They're
Dave (54:15):
all Yeah.
Matthew (54:15):
They're the same icon. But I thought, this is the way
the cards could go. Actually, alittle bit differently. And this
is a nod back to your pantheonidea where the discarded icon is
the one who, you know, who makestrouble for you. Yep.
So I thought when you spend afaith point, you you know,
(54:38):
you've got you've got 10 cardsin front of you, one of each
icon and and two of your ownicon. Obviously, you're
generally spending some ofthose, well, sorry. Not
obviously. Mhmm. It what I'mwhat I'm saying is if we discard
the idea that you you have tospend, say, the judge icon on on
(55:00):
a a combat role or the dancer ona on a physical combat role,
Let's forget that.
You you put an icon down thatyou to spend. If you're putting
icon and if you're putting cardssorry. I'm not making it clear.
If you're discarding cards justjust to make the revolt, that's
(55:24):
fine. But if you're discardingcards to buy off darkness, which
you might do, then the GM wouldbe would would would in in in my
way of thinking, the GM wouldhold that deck of cards.
And so he sees what you'rediscarding. And if you discard
(55:45):
something and bring it down tojust one point of darkness, The
GM and this is where the GMmight go, okay. This isn't this
is gonna be personal to you.Mhmm. You've just discarded the
dancer.
So something movement related,some movement related mishap
occurs to you right now.Immediate karmic justice. Mhmm.
(56:10):
Or and if and maybe maybe if youdon't if you don't buy off any
karma, then you go or darkness,I should say. If you don't buy
any off, then the GM is morelikely then to keep it.
Okay. I'll I'll keep that poolfor later on. Those darkness
points will come into playlater.
Dave (56:30):
Yeah. But
Matthew (56:30):
but when you do buy some off, maybe it's more likely
then that the damage to you isor the damage, but the the
mishap is more personal. Yeah.
Dave (56:40):
Yeah. No. I think you're I think you're on you got your you
have a seed of something there.I think you're onto something. I
I like the idea that rather thanjust delaying the the, you know,
the the karma by building updarkness points, there is a risk
that something would happenimmediately.
And it, you know, it would be arisk depending upon which which
(57:01):
icon you've chosen to disrespectmaybe or
Matthew (57:06):
or Exactly.
Dave (57:07):
Yeah. Impose upon in in burning off that darkness point
that you would otherwise haveyeah. Because you're because
you're basically getting thaticon to absorb that bit of bad
karma for you. But then maybethat should run the risk that
the icon goes, you you youimpudent little mortal. I don't
like that.
(57:27):
And then have some immediateresponse.
Matthew (57:29):
You're going to trip and fall or whatever. Yes.
Dave (57:32):
I like yeah. That's quite cool. I like that idea.
Matthew (57:36):
Cool. Right. Well, you know what? At some point, when
when I'm not doing my full timejob anymore, and oh, you will be
doing your full time job,hopefully. Fingers crossed.
Dave (57:48):
Well, I was gonna say sadly, sad but yes, hopefully.
Fingers crossed.
Matthew (57:52):
We might get back to running book three of the
adventure, of the campaign. Yes.
Dave (57:57):
It would be good to finish it at some point. Yeah.
Matthew (57:59):
And maybe we could playtest. I'll write up these
rules and playtest them and wecould give it a go. Yeah. And
report back here
Dave (58:07):
Indeed.
Matthew (58:08):
To our eager listeners.
Dave (58:09):
In in due course. I was gonna say in several years, but
in due course.
Matthew (58:15):
But yeah. Yeah. I think several years or due course have
have both applicable to us.Yeah. Okay.
Well, I have no idea what we'regonna be talking about in two
weeks' time.
Dave (58:27):
Me neither.
Matthew (58:28):
In fact, I do have an idea. I think I may be coming
home from Sweden in two yearstime in two weeks time at the
point we should be recordingthis.
Dave (58:37):
Okay.
Matthew (58:39):
So let us immediately say
Dave (58:43):
We might be late.
Matthew (58:45):
We may be late. I'm going to see our friend and
patron, Nicholas, in
Dave (58:52):
I'm very I'm very I'm very envious.
Matthew (58:54):
I am vaguely wondering whether I could persuade
Nicholas to give me a tour ofUppsala, and maybe I could
record it. And that may be a bitof impromptu content that we put
up in place of next week'sepisode. Particularly I'm just
thinking this right off the topof my head.
Dave (59:12):
Particularly, if if, you know, you could do a a a Wesson
tour of Ipsala.
Matthew (59:18):
Well, that's what I was thinking. Yeah. I won't I'm not
gonna say yeah. Yeah. It wouldit would be Wesson related.
Dave (59:26):
I guess it
Matthew (59:27):
could could show me the sites that really exist.
Dave (59:29):
It does rather depend on on Nicholas being willing to do
that and then having the time,of course.
Matthew (59:34):
Okay. Well, I'll I'll drop him a line. Now I've had
this idea in the middle of theprogram. Yeah. Nicholas is one
of our gold level patrons, so hemay even listen to this having
the idea.
Dave (59:45):
Yes. You know, well, if you are if you are listening,
Nicholas, I I am very envious,and I hope Matt gives you a big
hug from me. So it would'veprobably been
Matthew (59:53):
great see Right. Okay.
Dave (59:55):
Yep. Cool.
Matthew (59:57):
Obviously, not quite as big a hug as you would give him,
because I'm frankly not as bigas you are.
Dave (01:00:04):
Well, I've you're you're taller than I am, and you you
you do have some girth. So maybeyou are bigger than me.
Matthew (01:00:14):
Alright. Oh, alright. You've heard it here first,
boys.
Dave (01:00:19):
Fatter than me then. As we say. Although, I am quite fat at
the moment. Anyway, this is thisis unlistory stuff to reveal to
our our lovely listeners who'vegot better things to do than
listen to this kind of rubbish.
Matthew (01:00:31):
And until then, so keep watching the socials as to what
the contents of the next episodeare gonna be and when, frankly,
the next episode is gonna comeout. It won't be very delayed.
We will be back to our normalschedule within weeks.
Dave (01:00:45):
Yeah. Within well, yes. Indeed. Cool. Well, have a great
trip to Sweden, pal.
Matthew (01:00:52):
Thank you.
Dave (01:00:52):
And on that note, it's goodbye for me.
Matthew (01:00:56):
And it is goodbye from him.
Dave (01:00:59):
And may the icons bless your adventures.
Matthew (01:01:03):
Unless you've discarded them, of course.
Dave (01:01:06):
In which case, they hate you. You have been listening to
the effect podcast presented byFiction Suit and the RPG Gods.
Music stars on a black sea usedwith permission of Free League
publishing.
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