Out of the Box

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dave (00:39):
Hello. And welcome to episode 243 of Effect Out of the
Box. I'm Dave.

Matthew (00:48):
And I'm Matthew. And we have, well, we've got a great
interview, haven't we? Let's cutto the chase here.

Dave (00:53):
We have. We've got We've
got with one
of the nicest people in theworld.

Matthew (00:58):
Yeah. We love Magna Theta. Can we just say we love

Dave (01:01):
Magna Theta?

Matthew (01:04):
And we had a great old chat. It went on longer than we
expected it to do. Even though Isaid we really should finish
off.

Dave (01:11):
We had to cut it short. Well, I did anyway because I had
other stuff to do. Yeah. But wecould have gone on for ages, for
much longer. But, we just haveto get him on again in the not
too distant future to to finishthe conversation.

Matthew (01:24):
Yeah. Absolutely. But before that, we've got some
world of gaming. We don't haveany new patrons this week. At
least we didn't when I lastchecked.
I should maybe have checked thismorning, but let's assume not,
shall we? If you if you've justjoined as a patron, then you'll
get a shout out next time we doit.

Dave (01:40):
But thank you and welcome anyway. Get on the Discord.

Matthew (01:42):
But thank you and welcome if you've just joined.
And if you haven't just joinedand you think, well, I'd like to
join, then now's the perfecttime. Yeah. I did although I
gotta say, Patreon is goingthrough a few changes. One of
our patrons is gonna startgetting taxed on his and things
like that.
So Yeah.

Dave (02:01):
Yeah. They're not good changes, are they? Any of these
changes?

Matthew (02:03):
They're they're none of them none of them good.

Dave (02:05):
Give give more money to somebody
else changes for them to bebrief. And I think eventually,
all our patrons will be forcedonto what they call the
subscription model.

Matthew (02:12):
Yeah. And I think eventually all our patrons will
be forced onto what they callthe subscription model, which
isn't massively different exceptyour your money gets taken on a
set day of the month. I thinkthe 1st day of the month or
something.

Dave (02:23):
Right.

Matthew (02:26):
No. No. No. That's wrong. Wrong.
Currently, your money gets takenon the 1st day of the month. I
think they wanna move to a modelwhere every everybody's money
gets taken on the day that theyjoined up in the month.

Dave (02:37):
Right. Okay.

Matthew (02:38):
Which which would be a

Dave (02:40):
What is that? Basically stopping people getting a free 2
weeks?

Matthew (02:45):
Kind of. But also it's mostly to do with Disney
insisting they not Disney. Whatam I saying Disney? Disney and
Apple are synonymous obviously.Apple, wanting to get a proper
cut of everybody who signs up

Dave (02:59):
through Yeah. The Right.

Matthew (03:01):
Apple Patreon app. So if you want to sign up, don't
sign up through the Apple App.Come to the website and there's
links to our web to the ourPatreon website in our show
notes and sign up there. It'sbetter value for everybody
except for Apple. But if you doit through the Apple app, it it
it's a monthly you know, it's a30% goes to them.

(03:24):
And also they forced Patreoninto the state where Patreon now
have to, you know, moveeverybody under this bottle
where

Dave (03:31):
Yeah.

Matthew (03:32):
It's a monthly subscription. I guess so that
when people cancel, they get upto when they last paid. I don't
think it makes much odds, butit's just slightly irritating.

Dave (03:43):
Mhmm.
Yeah.

Matthew (03:43):
The predictions worked very well for for the last few
years. For us, especially, youknow, you've thank you to all
our patrons. Just say this againbecause you not only have you
supported the podcast, butyou've also supported us being
able to get into a state when wecould do a realistic Kickstarter
for Tales of the Odd West.

Dave (04:02):
Indeed. Yeah.

Matthew (04:02):
With with art to show and stuff like that. Yeah. So
it's all good. It's all good. Itis.
Anyway,

Dave (04:07):
Massive thank yous all around.

Matthew (04:09):
That's a long time talking about Patreon for where
we didn't actually have any newpatrons.

Dave (04:14):
No. And and and we were gonna keep this down to, you
know, to 20 minutes, of usblathering on, and the rest of
the episode would be Magnus. ButI don't think we're gonna
achieve that somehow. Anyway,let's crack on.

Matthew (04:27):
At 4 minutes in then, let's go to the world of gaming.
Shall we Dave?

Dave (04:31):
Yeah. Let's do that. So, first thing on the list,
Windheim from our friends atNordic Skalds is, arriving on
doormats now. So this is theirdragonbane that what was their
home brew dragonbane, setting,lore and campaign, which with
dragonbane out there and beingable to create your own
material, they have turned intoa fabulous couple of books,

(04:54):
called Windheim, which, so Imean I I was lucky enough. They
they sent me copies of the booksin in return for writing about
250 words for Rem.

Matthew (05:07):
Oh, okay.

Dave (05:08):
It wasn't very much. So we both got invited to, do a little

Matthew (05:12):
I paid for my copies.

Dave (05:13):
Did you?

Matthew (05:14):
Oh, okay. I don't know why. I I got back to say, I
don't know why. Obviously, Ibacked it, the project, because
I wanted to support Andreas.Yeah.
But but then I I didn't realizeI paid for the full set, you
know, with the maps and and andthe bling and the dice and stuff
like that. Yeah. Because I don'tthink I intend to pay it. And
then and then I forgot to even,do the back a survey and pay by

(05:38):
postage. And Andres thank you,Andres, because you effectively
gave me free postage.
You sent it to me anyway, whichis lovely.

Dave (05:46):
But it it it looks lovely. It's it's very very much in the
in the vein of of the Dragonbanestyle. It's really, really
beautifully produced. I mean, wewere chatting about it before,
and I'm unlikely to get it tothe table because I'm unlikely
to run Dragonbane at any timesoon, but I mean, it looks
lovely. And so hopefully,everyone who's backed it are
gonna be very pleased with, withthe products that come through

(06:08):
the door anytime now if ithasn't arrived already.

Matthew (06:11):
Yeah. And also and and the beautiful thing about this
is Andreas has waited tillpeople are actually getting
Dragonbane before launching thenext Kickstarter from Nordic's
Gold. But that will be, well,that is now, I think, live, and
it's called My Father's Sword.Very different product, tighter,

(06:33):
a whole new system. We're gonnabe talking with Andreas about it
next week.
So if you want to find out ornot next week.

Dave (06:41):
For the next show?

Matthew (06:42):
We're gonna we're gonna talk about it with him next
week, actually, aren't we? Ithink Monday after next. But,
we'll put it in the next show.But, yeah, that's out. And other
things are out.
So there's a week left on, theConan Kickstarter.

Dave (06:57):
There is. There is. There's yeah. Night at at the
time of recording, which isSunday, the 27th October,
there's 9 days to go. They'redoing really well.
They've got over 200,000,pledged nearly 2,000 backers. I
think I think Shep was aimingfor 3,000. That was what he was
really keen to get. I think hemight have, you know, that was

(07:19):
that was a target, but I'm notsure they're gonna quite get
there now. I mean 9 days to go,they get the end of campaign
bump.
Maybe they will. So fingerscrossed. And, yeah. That'll be
that'll be cool. That's butthat's doing really well.
I guess I suspected it probablywould. I mean, monolith have got
so much material and resourcesfor already. Thanks to the to

(07:40):
the board game. But Yeah. Youknow, they've got so much great
artwork.
And it's just it's just burstingwith fabulous artwork. So, yeah.
That'll be, that that'll be theone.

Matthew (07:52):
That will be very exciting.

Dave (07:54):
It's done well already, but I suspect, yeah, we might
get it to 3,000 with a bit ofluck. So if you're interested in
Conan folks, and you haven'tlooked at it yet, go and, go and
have a look. It's got 4scenarios in there written by
me, which I'm pretty pleasedwith. I'm very I I, you know, I
like them. They're they're goodscenarios.

Matthew (08:09):
I'm pretty sure I looked at the kickstarter at
some point where the actual nextstretch goal was a scenario
written by you.

Dave (08:15):
It was. Yeah. The priest of the skull lord.

Matthew (08:18):
Mhmm. Oh, I

Dave (08:19):
won't I won't give anything away.

Matthew (08:21):
It's got a skull lord in it. You can you can take that
for certain because it's in thetitle. Well, the Or has it? Or
has it only got to get?

Dave (08:30):
Well, or or or has it no priest and a butler does say,
who knows? You have to get theOh, okay. You have to get the
game and play it to find out.But, yeah. So that was that was
great fun.
And actually, that was somethingthat I so I'm not a massive
aficionario. Aficionadio?Aficionadio?

Matthew (08:47):
Oh, that's a new word. That's good. Yeah.

Dave (08:49):
I'm an aficionado.

Matthew (08:51):
Can I list?

Dave (08:52):
I'm not I'm not a massive expert on co on Conan.

Matthew (08:56):
Conan goes, you foul aficionadio.

Dave (09:00):
Yeah. That's quite alright. I know I've I've read I
haven't read all of the books.I've read a fair few back in the
day. But it was great because Iwas able to to to to dip into
some of the actual law from someof the books for well, not for
all the scenarios, but for thatone in particular.
There was there was a lovelylittle bit of lore that I saw

(09:21):
that I thought, That's a nicelittle hook for a scenario.
So I so
I used that. Yeah. I I thinkthat I think they're they're
pretty good. I'm very proud ofthem. I think they're gonna be
great fun to play.
But, yeah, go and back Conan,and you'll get the opportunity.

Matthew (09:36):
Cool. And, then we've got a couple of games that I
know some of our patrons are,keen on. Broken Empires RPG,
which I understand as being a d100 RPG sort of, you know, basic
fantasy fare, but giving a lotof freedom for the GM to

(09:59):
concentrate on creativity ratherthan rules. So the rules are

Dave (10:02):
meant

Matthew (10:02):
to be really simple to run. And I think, I picked
Douglas has looked at it anddecided, yes, it works for him.
And I mean, it does look

Dave (10:16):
very nice. I have to say the artwork, on the books on
just on the first first page ofthe Kickstarter do look it looks
it looks quite enticing. I'venever played Broken Empires. I
don't know very much about itother than what, you know,
people like Douglas and othershave have told us.

Matthew (10:32):
Mhmm. But it

Dave (10:32):
looks lovely. There was it's it's just hooked my might
back that just because it looksnice, like, vibe. But I'm, you
know, I haven't got the moneyto, but, it looks lovely.

Matthew (10:44):
I'm intrigued as well by the Salvage Union starter
set. Does that count as a secondedition? Only only a couple of
years after the first one.

Dave (10:53):
Maybe.

Matthew (10:54):
But I'm kind of intrigued because, you know, box
sets are more expensive thanbooks. Yeah. And, Salvers Union
made a lovely lovely book, andI'd love to know their thoughts
behind why they wanted to do abox set.

Dave (11:14):
I mean, it's interesting. I mean, if it's a starter set, I
think that's what it is, isn'tit? It's a starter set. That
does seem to be a, you know, acommon trend these days in a in
a lot of companies, doingstarter sets where I mean, for
me personally, I'm not a hugestarter set fan. I'd rather get
the full rules if I want.

(11:34):
If there's a game I want, I'drather get the lot rather than
get the get a, you know, asample selection and like some
of the other fripperies thatcome with a starter set. But I
know I mean, Boniface have donesome very, very, well received
starter sets for things like,Dreams and Machines. But they
look like they must be superexpensive to produce because

(11:55):
there's so much stuff in them.

Matthew (11:57):
So I, you

Dave (11:57):
know, again, there must be a real benefit that they're
seeing and, you know, you know,the likes of Freelee because
they now do starter sets for forfor most of their lines. There
must be a real business benefitin that in in that they see
people buying up starter sets,and then buying up the rest of
the stuff.

Matthew (12:14):
Yeah. I mean, they do.

Dave (12:15):
Justify the cost and the effort to create them. Because
they, you know, there's enoughcomplication in doing a small
little Kickstarter like we'redoing with Toto. Mhmm. The level
of that, it must be yeah. It'sanother level up on, on
complication, I think.

Matthew (12:31):
I mean, I guess there is, you know, so, the books get
published in Lithuania and, youknow, just like The Wind Times
is getting published by the sameprinters that we're using in
Yep. Lithuania. And that's gotEuropean pricing. All the
starter sets, I know for certainthat all the box sets that Free
League produces actuallyproduced in China. Is it so much

(12:53):
cheaper in China that it makessense?

Dave (12:56):
Okay. Yeah. Could be good now.

Matthew (12:58):
And and are you know, and when I go to shows on Free
League's behalf, a lot of thetime I am, taking cards and and
sample boxes from Yeah.Representatives of Chinese
companies Chinese producers.

Dave (13:13):
Yeah. Absolutely. Looking

Matthew (13:14):
for work. So, you know, if if Chinese producers are
competing against each other tooffer the best value for
manufacturers, then, you know,maybe there are some bargains to
be had in starter set land.

Dave (13:27):
Yeah. Perhaps. Yeah. Yeah. In the

Matthew (13:30):
Spiele Congress happened. Sorry, he said,
quickly pivoting away from thatsubject. But,

Dave (13:36):
I know. I'm I'm I'm sorry. I'm just at the moment, I'm just
utterly shocked with how wellyou're sticking to the plan of
moving on and not just beingloquacious about every
everything here. We we we yeah.Yeah.
Well, according to my

Matthew (13:50):
clock here, we've got 7 minutes of chat left, and still
I'm

Dave (13:53):
in the twilight zone. I'm in the twilight zone. Because I
was gonna say something. Well,it just occurred to me looking
in again at the, kickstartersthat we're looking at today. 4
of them, if we include Windheim,are, you know, your standard
standard?
Your your your traditionalswords and sorcery fantasy

(14:14):
setting. Is there ever gonna bea day when fantasy, you know,
there's too many fantasy gamesout there? Because because they
keep doing well. I mean, youknow, Windheim did really well.
My father's sword is alreadyalready, funded.
Conan is funded comfortably waybeyond its, its target. Broken

(14:34):
Empires, I guess, I've justclosed the page down, but, I
think that's again well fundedalready. So Yeah. You know, is
there just a a a permanent sumpof, and I don't mean sump in a
derogatory way, but a sump ofpeople out there who will always
just back something fantasy.

Matthew (14:54):
Soaking up all the fantasy games that people can
throw at them.

Dave (14:57):
Yeah. Because it's it's never ending. It just seems
never ending, the number offantasy games coming out.
Anyway, that's

Matthew (15:05):
quite the idea. I don't know. And and and and for you
and I, I feel we're we're kindof picky about fantasy games.
For decades, we didn't play anyfantasy games, and we were
meeting to to play role playinggames. But maybe we're just not
part of that culture, and thereis a culture out there that
loves everything that could bethrown at them.

(15:25):
You know, so looking at thesebooks of Dragon Vein, I'm
thinking maybe I can convertthese to, yeah, Forbidden Lands
or something like that.

Dave (15:34):
Yeah.

Matthew (15:36):
Anyway, shall we shall we pivot back to what I've just
pivoted to?

Dave (15:41):
Yeah. Sorry. Spill Congress.

Matthew (15:44):
Spill Congress, where they talked a lot about
Dragonbane and, things like thePath of Glory, which is, the
first of the official Dragonbanecampaigns starting. They're
also, of course, there's aKickstarter for Versa that we
talked about a couple of weeksago. So they talked a lot about
those products. We had our spiesthere. We had brilliant reports

(16:06):
from our Swedish, patrons whogave the rest of us a little
insight into what was going onYeah.
At the Speel Congress, and itlooked great. I'm a bit jealous
that we weren't there. And lateron in the interview, I'll
express my jealousy to Magnus.You mark my words.

Dave (16:23):
Yeah. Well, because you've already done it. Because we've
already

Matthew (16:25):
we've

Dave (16:25):
already interviewed him. But, yeah, they also talked
about the Great Dark, I think,at Spill Congress. So Spill
Congress, for those who don'tknow, is a free league organized
convention. It's quite small.It's a 2nd year they've run it.
And I think they had somethinglike 3 or 400 people coming
along, and they had a number ofother sort of producers, and

(16:46):
they had a lot of, seminars anddiscussions, and had a big gala
dinner at the end. But, yeah. Soit's the opportunity for them to
talk a bit more about, as yousaid, Dragonbane, Veirsten, and,

Matthew (16:59):
Coriolis.

Dave (17:00):
Coriolis, the great dark. But, yes. It was great. So thank
you, Nils and, and, Ricard.Ricard.
Yep. Who were there and givingus almost blow by blow accounts.
It was excellent. It was reallygood Yeah. To, to sit following
you.
With those yourself. Yeah. Itwas brilliant. It was cool.

Matthew (17:18):
Right. And and the final bit of news, you didn't
mention this to me at all, but Isaw that this thing had been
published. I thought, hold on.Didn't Dave have something to do
with that? And it's a new Dreamsand Machines setting book.
Tell me everything about it,Dave.

Dave (17:34):
So this is, it's the Immortavalo setting book.
Immortavalo is a, another regionof, Ivera Prime. Ivera Prime
being the planet where the gameis set. This is to the north of
the the region that you get inthe core book and the, and and
the starter set. And it itbasically gives you another

(17:56):
region and there is a giant citythere, which is called Imurta.
And the city is, it's abandoned.It's it's not destroyed,
although it is damaged from thewar that happened 200 years
previously. But, yeah, it's ait's a it's a wide new region
with, new events, newencounters, new things to come
across. The book itself, abouthalf of it is the setting, which

(18:20):
is the work that I did. I Idesigned the city, and and the
the kind of the things thatgoing on in it.
The rest is a couple of extraarchetypes. You get some more
gear, and, you get a few otherbits and bobs, which are sort
of, aids for the GM. I thinkthat's got, travel rules or

(18:41):
exploring rules at the end ofthe book. So it's it's a again,
it's a lovely lovely producedthing. The yeah.
I'm pretty pleased with themurder. I think the city is
really quite exciting. When Iwas writing this, we were doing
a campaign book as well, which Ihaven't heard anything about
where that's, where that's inthe in the production process.
But there's a

Matthew (19:01):
Is that gonna be set in a motor varlo?

Dave (19:04):
Yes. Mhmm. Or or but it starts it starts in, Regis
Castile, which is the originalWhere

Matthew (19:11):
you start

Dave (19:12):
with the basics. Yep. Yeah. But then, yeah, the story
will take you into a murdervaro, and eventually to the city
of a murder itself. And, yeah.
So it's, yeah. It's a reallygood it's a really good campaign
when I mean, it's up
to others to decide. I think
it's a really good campaign.It's got some lovely bits in it.
There's some excellent setpieces. It explores the world

(19:32):
nicely, but I don't know whatthe production schedule is for
that. So I haven't heardanything from Modiphius about
when that's coming out.
But, if you want the new settingwith Emote Varlo, get the little
book. It's it's quite it's quitea small book, but it's got lots
of stuff packed in it. And thatwill make you ready and ready

(19:55):
and waiting for when thecampaign book comes out, which
will take place in that in thatsetting. But yeah.

Matthew (20:01):
But it

Dave (20:01):
was great fun working on it. And I've I've just finished
working on the next campaignbook for Modiphius for dreams
and machines. So, so that wasfun. Yeah. I wrote I wrote a few
scenarios for that, and did someof the setting material in a
what was that place?
Simio Surienta is the name ofthat region, which is

Matthew (20:22):
That next region.

Dave (20:23):
Somewhere else. It's not Mhmm.

Matthew (20:24):
It's

Dave (20:24):
not close by. The story gets taken, a long way away from
home.

Matthew (20:29):
So with your ear to the ground in Modiphius, the numbers
for this game, Dreams andMachines, are doing well enough
then that, you know, they'rethey're happy to carry on
supporting it.

Dave (20:40):
Yeah. For sure. I mean, I don't get any insight into
actually how well it's doing. Iknow that they got an awful lot
of praise from various peoplefor the Dreams and Machine
starter box, which is is great.It's packed full of stuff.
It's, it's really good. Butobviously, yeah, it's it's doing
well enough for them to tocontinue to support the line,

(21:01):
which is great. I know Chris,Chris Birch, this is kinda his
baby. So it was his, idea that'sbeen percolating for many years,
a number of years. So when Icame into the the team to work
on it in the first place, what acouple of years ago now, there
was already a slew of artworkand already a a lot of the

(21:22):
background history was all allpretty much written.
It needed a bit of fine tuning,which Chris got me to help with.
Again, you know, I did a lot ofthe setting and the lore
material, for that with with therest of the team. It was quite a
big team working on working onthe game. Some of whom ended up
working on tales of the oldwest. I'm delighted to say,
because they're a real pleasureto work with.

(21:44):
But yes. So I think, you know,Chris has obviously got a lot of
his heart invested in this game.And, obviously, you know, it
must be doing well enough forthem to, to support doing more
in the line, which is great.Because it it looks lovely. I
mean, I haven't I've neverplayed it.
But I think, you know, it's it'sit's a it's a game with with a
bit more hope in it, withouthope being a mechanic in the

(22:06):
game. The game itself is quitehopeful. Even though there's a
lot of death, and there's a lotof danger, and there's a lot of,
of of of trauma and, threat inthe game. The game's tone is is
is pretty hopeful. Don't know.

Matthew (22:23):
Maybe you should try at some point in the future to get
Chris on. And

Dave (22:26):
That's a good idea, actually.

Matthew (22:28):
Talking about, like, the, you know, particularly, I'm
really intrigued if this islike, you know, maybe some you
know, we know Modiphius startedwith Apturn Cthulhu, a year ago.
That was their big thing. I'dlike to know, was this a a
thing, a world that he wasworking on and playing in before
that. And, you know, you talkedabout there being lots of art,

(22:48):
you know, his as he spent, oh,you know, we've got a spare
£1,000 from this Kickstarter forCthulhu. I'm gonna I'm gonna
spend some of that on some artfor my for my dream project.

Dave (22:59):
That would be a really interesting conversation,
actually. Yeah. I I think weshould definitely do that. Oh,
yeah. I'll I'll ping him amessage and see if we can
encourage him to come on.
That would be a really goodidea.

Matthew (23:09):
Yeah. Maybe coordinate it with the release of the
campaign whenever that is comingout Yeah.

Dave (23:14):
That's a good idea.

Matthew (23:15):
Cool. Okay. We like to do that. Now, shall we talk
about our own Kickstartercampaign?

Dave (23:20):
Yes. Because we've we've failed in our target to stick to
20 minutes. Yeah. But we're notwe're not badly over. So right.
So what, what news have you gotthen, Matt? What do you want to

Matthew (23:31):
update? Okay.

Dave (23:32):
So the

Matthew (23:33):
art factory is working at full speed. You and I sat
down last week, didn't we? Andwe had a board meeting. Yeah.
And we worked out, we we lookedat the word count now.
And you've got you've goneslightly gasko in in in writing
some of these things.

Dave (23:49):
Well, actually actually actually, not so much. A little
bit perhaps on the campaign. Buta lot of the extra words was
down to, the success of thekickstarter and the number of
guest writers we had on board.So that That's that's

Matthew (24:04):
that's really what it means.

Dave (24:06):
Big chunk of words. But I I do feel I do feel I have been
a little bit Lucretius perhapson the, on the campaign. But I
think, you know, it's all gold.Every word is is is is is gaming
gold.

Matthew (24:17):
It's not all gold. Some of it is just copper pyrates,
mate. And No. It's not gold.Luckily, we have the excellent
Neil, who is, we've,commissioned as our editor.
And Neil will be going throughthat with his pan and sorting
out the real gold for Paul'sgold.

Dave (24:32):
Well, he'll he'll basically find he'll find the
gold that's already beenpolished to the to the point
where it can't be polishedanymore. And he will find the
rest of the gold that just needsa little bit of work to polish
it up and get the dust off it.That's what

Matthew (24:44):
he's saying. I'm sure. I'm pretty sure.

Dave (24:46):
And he's very good at it. He's he's,

Matthew (24:48):
We're paying him a lot of money for this. I'd hope to
think that he's gonna find us,he's he's gonna have a Well,

Dave (24:55):
I mean, he he massively improved the, the quick start.
You know, he did a very good jobon, on on making that a better
product. So I'm expecting thesame.

Matthew (25:05):
Cool. Yes. That I'm sure I'm sure that will happen.
So, anyway, you're doing that.So that meant when we sat down,
we thought, oh, we've got morepages in the book than we
thought we were gonna have, andwe need more art than we thought
we were gonna need.
And, actually, I don't quiteunderstand why we need so much
more art, you know. Becauseobviously, yes, we've we've gone

(25:27):
up like a 20% more pagesroughly. We're not having 20%.
We're almost doubling the amountof art we need.

Dave (25:33):
So Well, I I think, actually, and this is in the
interest of full disclosure, Ithink we haven't produced as
much art as we thought we hadbefore the kickstarter. I think
we thought we were a bit furtheron in terms of the quantity or
the percentage of the artwork weneeded to do. So I think Right.

Matthew (25:51):
I I miss

Dave (25:51):
I think we I think we miscalculated a little bit
there, which is what has kindaled to, you know, the slight
surprise on on that Friday of,oh, we got that much art left to
do.

Matthew (26:02):
Yeah. I mean because I was

Dave (26:03):
I was

Matthew (26:03):
the extra on top left. To be

Dave (26:04):
fair.

Matthew (26:06):
You know, we did have, Thomas. Thomas wasn't was wasn't
able to be as productive as hewanted to be. So, so, yeah,
you're right. We would have hadmore done before the Kickstarter
were it not for that. But still,like, anyway, we've got a lot to
do.
And we've set ourselves a targetof having most of it, if not all

(26:27):
of it, in place by the end ofNovember. Luckily, we got 3 new
artists who Yeah. TheKickstarter brought to us. All
very different approaches we'vehad, but lovely art. I'm Yeah.
Really enjoying. In fact, Idon't think you've did did Mate
Mate, not quite sure how topronounce his Bulgarian name.

(26:49):
Sorry, Mate, if you'relistening. Did he copy you in on
on the last 4 sort of weapondrawings he's done for us?

Dave (26:59):
Not No. I only saw the first ones.

Matthew (27:01):
I might send them on Or they should be in the same
folder, actually, if you if youclick on that. What I'm loving
about these is these could betechnical drawings. And yet,
with the way he draws them, theythey just they feel great. I
just love them. Yeah.
I love them.

Dave (27:19):
Well, that that's kind that was kind of what I wanted
really. I wanted it to lookalmost like this is this is a,
this is a picture out of a, acatalog of the time. Because I
did find, a catalog of the timeonline for Colt, and it had a
picture of of I'm not sure whatwhich Colt gun it was, but might

(27:39):
have been the Colt 45. Had apicture of that with all the
stats and the and the and, youknow, the cost and all the rest
of it. And this was somethingthat was produced in 18/70 or
18/70 5.
The quality of it wasn't quiteright, because I was thinking we
could otherwise potentially justtake that image and use it. But
it's the quality of the the, youknow, the original wasn't very
good. But that was kind of thelook I was hoping for for these

(28:01):
weapon things, because they'reobviously gonna go in the
weapons chapter. And I wanted itto have that feel that, you
know, you're looking at a, an,you know, an image from from a
journal of the time where you'reflicking through and thinking,
oh, I might go and buy that one.So I think that's it.
Great. You know, the ones I'veseen look look really good as
well. I mean, so I I shall goand have a look at those those
fresh ones.

Matthew (28:21):
Yeah. And, so and we've also got Tazio from Italy,
who's, done one of our one ofour archetype pictures, which we
tried him out on. I've nowsettled him to do three others.
I'm hoping to, with his Italianheritage to, channel Sergio
Leone for him for some of our,more actiony pictures.

Dave (28:43):
He did the lawman archetype for us, didn't he?
Yeah. And that that's reallynice. That that's very, very
good. Very good art.
Yeah. So

Matthew (28:51):
And we've also got I'm gonna again mispronounce, your
name, Cagdas, but, Cagdas is aTurkish artist living in Poland,
and he's done our prospectusart, and he's doing Yeah. A
whole bunch more for us.

Dave (29:05):
Yeah. That looks really good as well. I mean, you know,
the the one of the things thatis really good here is that all
these new artists have reallygot on board with the style and
the look we're going for. Andthey've produced artwork that is
is is, I guess, slightlydifferent enough.

Matthew (29:22):
It's their own interpretation.

Dave (29:23):
So you can see it's a different artist. But also, it's
it's so familiar with what we'reafter that it just fits
beautifully well with all thestuff we've got Yeah. Yeah. Very
impressed with their work.

Matthew (29:34):
So, yeah. We we will, feature some more of that. I'm
and now now that now that we'rein production, actually, I'm not
wanting to share too much artwith our backers. I think we
will share occasional bits. ButI want to, keep keep some of it
as a surprise because

Dave (29:51):
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

Matthew (29:52):
I think you and I, Dave, we've just seen the sketch
for the GM screen. And

Dave (29:56):
Yeah. That's lovely.
I mean,

Matthew (29:58):
it's only a layout sketch. It's not colored in or
anything, but it's lovely.

Dave (30:02):
It's gonna be really good.
It looks really good. It looksgood.

Matthew (30:04):
I don't want people to be surprised by that. I don't
wanna share that, until untilpeople get it on their desk. And
in fact, just as as an aside,I'm just wondering whether we
could cut it up and use it asthe end papers as well for
people that didn't get the GMscreen.

Dave (30:19):
Yeah. Yeah. That's a good idea. Yeah.

Matthew (30:21):
That might be a possibility. We'll, we'll see
whether that works. Anyway, sothat's art. What else are we
talking about? What else have wedone?

Dave (30:29):
So the text so the text is is is very nearly there now. We
are, we are we are waiting forthe for the response from our
sensitivity readers, which wecan say a little bit about more
about in a minute. But we're notexpecting anything massively
sweeping from that. I do expectthat they'll have comments that
we'll need to roll in. But, yes.

Matthew (30:50):
I'm aware that the text we sent them has actually not
got some of the changes that werealized were potentially
insensitive after we sent themthe text. So Yeah.

Dave (31:00):
But I think Yeah. So I think that's probably okay,
because I think the one thatyou're If I'm thinking of the
one that you're thinking of, youknow, I think we've the changes
we've made to that probably dealwith that problem. Yeah. But,
yeah. In terms of the text, sothe only the only bit that So
we're actually having a littlediscussion about the structure
of the book, which is fine.
That's very easy to fix. Andthere is one guest writer naming

(31:26):
no no names, Drew Gascon, whohasn't come through with their
thing yet. But I I gave him anextension because he was away at
a convention. But so we're justwaiting for it. One more of
those to come in, which I expectany day now.

Matthew (31:39):
And Well, you know what the problem there is? The text
He's done his 20,000 words, butyou've only commissioned 500. So
he's trying to He's

Dave (31:46):
gotta get it done

Matthew (31:46):
in a bunch of shape.

Dave (31:47):
Well well, actually, you know, in in in Drew's defense,
he's never ever tried to get atext down to the word count
before.

Matthew (31:56):
Oh, god. This is an impossible nightmare for him.

Dave (32:00):
So now that's a bit harsh. But I mean, second with Alien,
he wrote so much good stuffthat, that in the end Free
League just went, oh, fuck it.We'll take the word hit. Yeah.
And and include it.
But no, I mean that that's notthat's not a problem. That'll
that'll come in in the next fewdays, and we've got a little bit
of time there. We've got some ofthe techs off to Neil already.
So Neil is is gonna be if hehasn't started already, we'll be

(32:21):
starting, this week on the edit,which is great. So yeah, the
text is in a pretty good place.

Matthew (32:28):
Yeah. Cool. And just a little bit so this is an example
of the sort of things that couldgo wrong.

Dave (32:36):
That we'd never expect to go wrong. Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew (32:39):
So we sent we sent the text over to the sensitivity
writer weeks ago. And in fact, Ikind of like, the day after we
were expecting it back, I said,you know, sent them a message
saying, has it been a problem?You know, do you need a bit more
time or something? And, theycame back saying, oh, we we
emailed you as soon as you'dsent us the text. We can't open

(33:00):
the files.
Some weirdness with Google Docs.I don't know what it was. But
their emails and they you know,she sent me copies of 2 emails
that they sent us, and theysaid, you know, looks like
they've been received from theirend. No sign

Dave (33:15):
of talk

Matthew (33:16):
in our inbox. Hang on. And I've gone through Google's
junk folder and stuff like that.Oh, not Google's actually. It
was, because we've been workingwith them on the, first of all,
initially, we were it was onthe, Effect podcast Yeah.
Server. So no no no sign ofthem. So I had no idea what

(33:36):
happened to those emails. Sothey've been sitting there
waiting for us to respond withnew docs, for 3 weeks when they
should have been reading them.So, so eventually and then I
tried again and the same thinghappened.
I don't know what Google Docsare doing. I copied all the text
into a Word document and thensent that off to them, and that
is at least readable. So

Dave (33:58):
Yeah. Good.

Matthew (33:59):
So that's what they're seeing. So this the other This

Dave (34:02):
is a sorry. Go on.

Matthew (34:04):
Sorry. You know, but, you know, now they're starting 3
weeks late. So that's slightlythrown our schedule. I think
it's rescuable, you know, andthey're, they're

Dave (34:12):
Yeah. That's what I was gonna say. Yeah. So I I think I
I think this is this is aninconvenience rather than a huge
problem. Because, you know, oncethat comes back, we then get it
into to to Neil for editing.
It might mean that that text isa little bit later getting to
him than we would like. Youknow, maybe by a week or 2 at
the most. But I but I yeah. It'sit's it's Yeah. I'd I'd rather

(34:36):
it hadn't happened, but it's notit's not terrible.
It it does possibly start totest

Matthew (34:47):
our our

Dave (34:47):
target date of getting the PDF done by Christmas. I think
that's going to be a challenge.We will do our best to achieve
that, but I think that thatmight be a problem. But we will
be open and honest with everyoneexplain what's going on, and and
and let people know what therevised schedule will be if the
schedule has to be revised. Butbut I think on the whole, you

(35:08):
know, this is an interestingkind of case in point for people
like us who are brand new atdoing this kind of thing of the
the issue out of left fieldthat, you know, never in a
1000000 years did I thinkthere'll be a problem with
opening files with thesensitivity A do call it

Matthew (35:26):
a horse horse.

Dave (35:27):
Or or them their emails back complaining about it, or
telling us about it disappearinginto the ether, and us having no
clue what's going on.
Never in
a 1000000 years do I think thatwould happen. It's happened. You
know, take it on the chin. We'lldeal with it. It's not a biggie,
in this case.
But it's a it's a good case inpoint of the kind of things that
we ought to just keep our eyesand ears open for, and maybe

(35:49):
double check with things infuture. You know, to try and
keep us on track. So forexample, a lesson a lesson from
this could be that, you know, 3or 4 days after we sent them the
material, or something similar,just say, hi. Did did you get
it? Are you reading it?
Is it all okay?

Matthew (36:06):
Yeah.

Dave (36:06):
You know, I mean

Matthew (36:08):
Which is, of course, after I sent them this material,
exactly what I did.

Dave (36:11):
Yeah. But it but again, it's it's one of those things
that you don't necessarily thinkyou need to do, because 99.99%
of the time, everything worksswimmingly and you don't hear
anything and that's good news.

Matthew (36:21):
And once upon a time, email was a lot more flaky than
this and we've just come to relyon it so much Yeah. Because
it's, you know, it has been sogood.

Dave (36:29):
Because it's not so flaky anymore. No. Yeah. Yeah. So
there we go.
But we are cracking on. Theother thing to mention is the,
the maps are are being produced.They've seen the first the first
sort of spread of all the mapswe need. It's a bit of work that
needs doing on them to get themin the right place. But they
are, they are being put togetherand are actually looking pretty

(36:50):
good.
The the the the maps of the westand New Mexico, which I was not
worried about. But I was just Iwas just, what's the word I'm
looking for? I was interested tosee how they would turn out from
the drawings that I did, areactually looking a lot better
than I thought they might. So Ithink we're I think we're
getting into a good place withthose as well.

Matthew (37:12):
Cool. Cool. Cool. Right.

Dave (37:15):
Cool.

Matthew (37:16):
Right then. Are we done?

Dave (37:17):
We are.

Matthew (37:18):
Now this is this is on a that was almost another 20
minutes, Dave. We're now 37minutes in. Well, it does. Shall
we devote the rest of theepisode to almost hour long chat
with Magnus? And frankly, thatshould do.
Dave, do you want to introduceEric? Eric? Do you wanna
introduce Eric?

Dave (37:38):
Yeah. I'll introduce Eric, and you introduce Magnus. How
about that? That that soundslike a great idea.

Matthew (37:45):
Okay. I'm I

Dave (37:47):
think we're keeping that in the in the in the podcast
now.

Matthew (37:50):
Well, maybe we should.

Dave (37:51):
So we are so we're here we are. We are in the Hamam, and
today, we don't have Eric in theHamam who Matthew just
encouraged me to, introduce. Wehave the wonderful Magnus Sieta.
Welcome, Magnus. It's great tohave you on the show again.
It's, I think is this the secondtime we've had you on the show,
and you've also won a game ofDragonbane for us. 3rd time.

Matthew (38:12):
I think you were on our panel discussion about the
history of Swedish games,actually, which is kinda
pertinent.

Dave (38:18):
Indeed. Indeed.

Magnus (38:19):
Makes it for them because we did 2 on Bitter
Reach, and then we did theSwedish style.

Dave (38:24):
Yes.

Magnus (38:24):
And then this is the 4th time.

Matthew (38:27):
Wow. Cool. Yeah. Wow.

Dave (38:28):
Excellent. But so welcome again as always. How are you?
How are things?

Magnus (38:32):
Yeah. I'm fine. My voice is a bit shot after, the gaming
convention this, last, Saturday.As we call in Sweden, gaming
convention, which is, arrangedby, Free League. And, it's it's,
it sort of drew in 350 visitorsand about 100 people working

(38:54):
there or being there sellingbooks or game mastering and
stuff like that.
So about 404 150 people gatheredat one place for, Saturday.

Matthew (39:04):
It looked brilliant. I have to say. Yeah.

Dave (39:06):
It was the first

Matthew (39:07):
smart dinners. Oh, yes.

Magnus (39:10):
It's it's they they they end, they end the the, event by
having a a gala dinner for,specially invited, awful people
who buy outrageous, outrageouslyexpensive tickets. So so it's
it's that's it's sort of likethe business, that come together

(39:34):
with with producers and and thepeople who work in the industry
and and super fans, basically.Mhmm.

Dave (39:41):
It's it's a

Magnus (39:42):
great first industry.

Dave (39:42):
Was that was that the first one that is that the first
time they've done it, theinaugural?

Magnus (39:47):
Oh, this is the second that that they did last year,
and and that was focused onDragonbane. And this year, they
did, Dragonbane, but they alsodid Coriolis at the Great Dark.

Dave (39:58):
Great Dark. Yeah.

Magnus (39:58):
They also did, Vaesen. And and they just recently
released news about the mythicTransylvania and of the,
Stockholm, adventure module, Ithink.

Dave (40:11):
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. The Carpathia.

Magnus (40:14):
Yeah. Mythic Carpathia. Yeah.

Dave (40:15):
That sounds cool. Yeah.

Magnus (40:17):
I'm most excited about the Stockholm thing, actually,
because we have our office in inGamestan where where the
adventure takes place. So soit's sort of like, if you play
it when we play it, it will be,adventuring where I go to work,
basically. Excellent.

Matthew (40:38):
And, what are you playing currently just in in in
your social life as it were?

Magnus (40:48):
We're actually, at the moment, not playing a freely
game. It it was sort of,

Matthew (40:53):
It's okay.

Magnus (40:54):
It's legal. I I I heard Thomas and Neil screaming in the
in the fall.

Dave (41:01):
Yeah. I'll tell you.

Magnus (41:02):
Yeah. No. The thing was that we ran a a a long, long
campaign of Raven's Purge.

Matthew (41:08):
Mhmm.

Magnus (41:09):
And, after that, we sort of like well, we're we're sort
of like, well, maybe not a freeleague game. So so we picked up
a game called, alien. And afterthat, we're like, well, maybe
not another free league game.And then we played, Avasten. And
we had such a such a difficulttime.

(41:29):
I was just trying to wrestleourselves free from from all the
fabulous games that Free Leagueare are doing, that we sort of,
in the end, ended up now playingMaus Ritter.

Matthew (41:42):
Ah, yes.

Magnus (41:44):
And it's it's it's a fabulous change of of, pace, and
it's also a fabulous change ofperspective. The the just just
the the the fact that you play alittle mouse adventuring with
swords and everything, it itmakes it feel different.
Although it could be dragons andand and paladins and the

(42:07):
fighters and Yeah. But you aremice fighting rats and and and
cats and and roaches and stufflike that. And the the the
change in perspective is veryfresh.
Mhmm. And we're we're very muchenjoying that. After that, I
don't know what we're we'regoing to do. After Raven's
Purge, which took us 3 or 4years to play, we decided to not

(42:29):
do mega campaigns.

Matthew (42:32):
Right.

Magnus (42:32):
So we we tried to do 8 to 10, sessions of 1 game and
then switch to another gamebecause we are blessed with
having 4 people in the group of5 being game masters. So

Dave (42:45):
Right. Yeah.

Magnus (42:46):
People are, like like, lining up to this. I wanna run
this. I wanna run this. I wantto run this. So so we we have to
let people run their things,basically.

Dave (42:55):
Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a good way it's a good way of
doing it. My my weekly group,we've got 5 people who wanna
game master, and we we rotatearound the games.

Magnus (43:03):
Mhmm.

Dave (43:03):
But it but it what it does mean is that each game kind of
loses a bit of momentum betweensessions because it's 4 or 5
weeks between sessions.

Magnus (43:10):
Oh, okay. You did that thing.

Dave (43:12):
Yeah. So we're we're tinkering with the idea of doing
it your way just to try and keepthe momentum going, but still
enjoy the game. It's still greatfun, but Yeah. I think there's
definitely something to be saidfor playing the same game every
week for a couple of months now.

Matthew (43:25):
Yeah. You felt that definitely, didn't you, with,
Walking Dead, the the break inWalking in The Walking Dead
campaign, did it no favors atall?

Dave (43:33):
No. Absolutely. Yeah.

Magnus (43:34):
And I think in the alien game, we play chariot of the
gods, and I think that having,if if we would have had weeks in
between sessions, the stresslevels would have sort of, like,
not been the same. That would be

Dave (43:49):
lose some of the the

Magnus (43:52):
energy of of the stress.

Dave (43:54):
Yeah. A

Magnus (43:54):
million at at least. So but it's on its its gaming is
gaming. And so so you do itdifferently. Everyone does it
differently. Yeah.
Yeah. So that's what I'm I'm

Dave (44:07):
I was I was just gonna say that, Magnus, so because there's
a there's a very, very good newgame. You might have heard of
it. It's just coming out or orbe released next year that you
might wanna get into, as yourgroup might wanna play it, you
know, some western tales of theold west

Magnus (44:19):
thing. Yeah.

Matthew (44:20):
Yeah. And it's not a 3 d game. I mean It's not

Dave (44:23):
a 3 d game.

Matthew (44:24):
3 d.

Dave (44:24):
Kind of might as well be, but it's not.

Magnus (44:26):
Yeah. Exactly. No. Exactly. And I I congratulate
you too for the

Dave (44:30):
Yeah. Thank you.

Magnus (44:31):
For the successful Kickstarter. And I I just read
the an email that you said thatthe path to fulfillment has
begun.

Matthew (44:39):
Yes. Yes.

Magnus (44:40):
So I'm I'm looking forward to it, and it's it's it
might be fun for you to hearthat when people ask about, so
are there other Wild West gamesaside from Western, which is a
Swedish game

Dave (44:52):
Mhmm.

Magnus (44:52):
Which is supposed to be printed, at the end of this
year, but still, people willrecommend your game.

Matthew (45:00):
Excellent. Excellent.

Magnus (45:02):
I'm looking looking forward to that, and and, we'll
see where that ends up. It'sit's, the Western game that we
have in Sweden is hyperdetailed. So so I think that, a
taste of the old west will fitme a little bit better,
basically.

Matthew (45:19):
Cool. Cool. We backed the, Swedish oh, we we backed
the English translation ofwestern as well.

Magnus (45:25):
Yeah. So it's coming along.

Dave (45:27):
Many years ago. Yeah.

Magnus (45:29):
Many years ago.

Matthew (45:29):
And we strived we we have committed ourselves to not
looking at the PDFs. Oh.Because, of course, we were
developing our own gamealongside, and I didn't wanna
feel that we were nicking ideasout of Weston. So when it comes,
it'll be a pleasant surprise.Mhmm.
And, hopefully, by then, ourswould have gone to print, so we
can't change anything if we canOh god. That's what

Magnus (45:49):
I did.

Dave (45:50):
It'll be too late anyway because we wouldn't be able to
change stuff by then anyways.

Magnus (45:54):
You have to have room for a second edition as well,

Matthew (45:56):
you know? Yeah. Same.

Dave (45:57):
Yeah. We should be we should be doing that next year.
We should see that next year.Yeah. There'll be time for a
second edition next year.

Magnus (46:03):
Exactly. That that's what game is like. 1 year
between editions.

Matthew (46:06):
They love that, don't they? Yeah. They love that.

Dave (46:08):
The shorter, the better. The shorter, the better.

Matthew (46:11):
Yeah. And what it'd

Dave (46:12):
be, it's

Matthew (46:13):
just so that's your that's your your hobby life.
Have you been writing anythinginteresting

Dave (46:18):
that you

Magnus (46:18):
can tell to?

Dave (46:20):
Other than, of course, the book that we've got you want to
talk about. Yeah.

Matthew (46:23):
Yeah. He wrote that months ago. Now I'm looking to

Magnus (46:27):
I'm working on the, lone wolf, the dragonbane adaption of
lone wolf.

Matthew (46:32):
Uh-huh. Excellent. And that's with, without, forgotten
the name again. Got that. NameCharlie.
Asphogel. That's what I'mlooking for.

Magnus (46:42):
Wolfgang. Yes. Yeah. That's on the bird. Yeah.
Exactly. And it's, it's beingkick started in English at the
moment, actually. Mhmm. And,that's it's a great going great.
It's it's almost close to a1,000,000 Swedish krones Kronas.
Nice. Which is great because theSwedish one didn't do as well as
we hoped. Mhmm. But the Englishone is doing a lot better. And

(47:05):
Cool.
Since they are so close to eachother, we can, we can sort of
pull together resources, whichmeans that we can enhance the
Swedish version now, which isYeah. Cool. Cool. So cool. Like,
just

Matthew (47:16):
must be a bunch of English magnum and fans from the
old Oh, yeah.

Magnus (47:20):
The old English. Absolutely. And and the the
thing with that is that that I'monly do only sort of, like,
doing the, rules, adaptions.Mhmm.

Matthew (47:29):
Of

Magnus (47:29):
course, I'm I'm doing some some things that need to be
done with the structure and andand the way the text is
presented.

Matthew (47:36):
Mhmm. It

Magnus (47:37):
shouldn't be. But, we have August Hahn on the train as
well, and he's a magnum andexpert, which I'm not. I'm just
a Dragonbane, expert of ofsports. So so it's it's it's a
good thing to have someone whoknows magnum and in and out,
basically. Apart from that, I'mI'm just writing short articles

(48:00):
for Dragonbane for Phoenix and,trying to trying to prepare for
my next big thing, next year.

Matthew (48:10):
Oh, any hints about what your next big thing is?

Magnus (48:14):
It's a big thing, and it comes next.

Dave (48:17):
It's a thing, and it's big. And it

Matthew (48:20):
comes next. And it

Magnus (48:21):
might it might involve free league. So that's

Dave (48:24):
Nice. Nice. Intriguing.

Matthew (48:27):
Excellent. Right. We shall, we shall move on then to
the the meat of this interviewbecause, you sent us, both of
us, each of us, a copy of thislovely book, which I'm holding
up for, for Magnus. But, ofcourse, we're a podcast, so
nobody else can see it. Let'sall hold our books up.

Dave (48:49):
And it's called outside the box because Magnus obviously
isn't getting to there to thetitle.

Matthew (48:55):
How Sweden conquered the world of role playing games,
which no lack of modesty there.I know that. It's an

Dave (49:04):
assertive it's an assertive subtitle. Listen to
that one.

Magnus (49:06):
It is. It is. And it's it's it's fun because it's funny
because, it's been somediscussion about the premise of
the book, among Swedishroleplaying gamers. But, one
thing that that I I write in thebook is that if I've learned
something, about, roleplayinggamers is that everything is up
for debate.

Matthew (49:25):
Yeah. Yes.

Magnus (49:26):
And as

Dave (49:27):
I mentioned that part in the book. Yeah.

Magnus (49:28):
Yeah. Yeah. And it's, the the premise that we have,
conquered the the the roleplaying world is sort of, like,
contested, among, some. And mytake is that not not many people
would be interested in reading abook about how Swedish role
playing games are sort of good,and you might want to to try

(49:51):
them maybe if you like. Thatthat that's sort of like a Yeah.
Much more boring assertion. Andsince we are also aiming this
book at the American marketYeah. There's no denying that.
That's the biggest market. MaybeGermany is is big and the UK, of
course, but we are sort ofaiming at the American market.

(50:13):
And, it it was written by me inEnglish, to start with so that,
we could appeal to peopleoutside of Sweden. And we have
to be sort of, like, assertiveand just say, well, look at
this. Mhmm. This is cool. Take alook at this.
Yeah. And, of course,

Matthew (50:30):
Even if d and d players want to take issue with that
subtitle, they're gonna have tobuy the book to argue with it,
aren't they? So Exactly.Planning plan. Well done.

Magnus (50:39):
And and the thing is that that the the the the the
basic premise basically is isbasic basically basic the basic
premise is that, in Sweden,Dragon Bay in is Dungeons and
Dragons or occupies the spacethat Yeah. Dungeons and Dragons
occupies in the rest of theworld. And stop

Dave (51:01):
Dungeons and Dragons occupying that space in Sweden
because it Exactly.

Magnus (51:05):
Because it

Dave (51:05):
got there first. Yeah.

Magnus (51:06):
Yeah. And one of one of the the basic, ideas I have
about, role playing games is thefirst mover advantage is is very
powerful.

Matthew (51:16):
Mhmm. And

Magnus (51:17):
if if you look at at, role playing games and and you
say that, Dungeon and Dragons isthe best rule system because
it's the biggest, and it thatproves that it is the best type
of role playing system withlevels and and escalating hit
points and the spell slots andeverything like that. I don't
think that holds water, becausethere are other places in the

(51:38):
world where other rule systemshave dominated. So so it's
basically a first moveradvantage, of course, and it has
to be a good game. I played alot of Dungeons and Dragons. I
Yeah.
I I really, enjoy playingDungeons and Dragons, but it's
not the it's not the be all andend all of of, role playing game

(51:59):
design. And I wanted this bookto to lift that perspective a
bit and say that it it can bedifferent, basically. No.

Matthew (52:08):
No. And I and I love that first chapter. Well, for
various reasons, actually. Daveand I, you know, we came to
Sweden once. We interviewed abunch of people, and I think I
think we may foolishly havethought, oh, we know the history
of Swedish role playing gamesnow.
But I've definitely learned alot from from what I've read so
far in this book. But I do justwhile we're talking about you've

(52:32):
written this, specifically forthe American market. I love the
little hint towards that one,which is your your map of Sweden
in the first book. He say, sizeslightly larger than California.
So Yep.
No. You're giving a context for,for the world there. But the

Magnus (52:50):
other thing

Matthew (52:51):
that I think I was, really interested to spot or to
find out, I should say, in thatfirst chapter is how much time
Frederic Malmberg spent inAmerica having kind of had the
idea of let's, you know, let'swell, first of all, I guess,
let's become a distributor forthese American games that we're

(53:14):
enjoying, and then let's let'swrite our own, and let's make
sure that we've got that, as yousay, that first first mover
advantage in there. But he did areal kind of tour of of the late
seventies, early eightiesAmerican gaming scene, didn't
they?

Magnus (53:33):
Yeah. And I I and I that's something that that we
have to also acknowledge inSweden is that, sure, it's it's,
we conquered the role playingworld, but it's it all
originated in the in the States,and we brought it here and gave
it our own spin. And, FredericMalmberg, who appears quite a

(53:54):
lot in the book Mhmm. Because hehe wasn't also he wasn't only
very important at the start. Hehas been important all all the
way through, the development ofthe Swedish wool paying industry
and the hobby.
But he spent time in at workingat different distributors and

(54:15):
then moving to California,working out at a game shop
there, and living with, StevePerrin and his wife and playing
games with. He's credited in theCall of Cthulhu, 1st edition as
a play tester.

Matthew (54:33):
Mhmm.

Magnus (54:33):
And, he sort of soaked up a lot of knowledge about
distributing games, sellinggames, and and he also saw that
role playing games were on theup in in the states. And that
was sort of like when he decidedthat we have to do do our own.
We have to make our own inSwedish. And since he was

(54:54):
friends with, Kaosim, he got,the rough manuscript of, magic
world, turn that into dragonbaneor Drakkar the Morna, as it was
called that. Dragonbane is sucha such a new name for us.
It's it's we we never call itthat, but it it it's sort of,

(55:14):
like, natural now.

Matthew (55:16):
Does it feel natural too?

Magnus (55:18):
It it does.

Matthew (55:18):
When it when

Magnus (55:18):
it It does.

Matthew (55:19):
I mean, Odie in English, you surely still call
it Draka of the Annoia with thechatter.

Magnus (55:24):
Yeah. Exactly. If we if we speak speak about it, we call
it, actually, we call it dod, do d.

Matthew (55:32):
D o d. Yes. Yes.

Magnus (55:33):
Or or dod. Yeah. But but it's it's it's sort of like
Dragon Bay felt strange, becausewe wanted, like, the where's the
demons and stuff like that. Butit it it is a good name still,
and it it's, it's it's takenhold so so that it doesn't feel
strange.

Dave (55:51):
But I can see why they they decided to to use Dragon
Vein for the wider audience. ButI I still think that, you know,
I'm maybe I'm a bit closer tosome of this than than most
people, but Draco Octomonasounds great to me. Demons and
dragons and demons sounds good.You know? So I I think they
could probably have got awaywith going with

Matthew (56:11):
Topgolf.

Dave (56:12):
Dragons and demons.

Matthew (56:13):
Could they have got away with it? I mean

Dave (56:16):
Don't know. Don't know.

Matthew (56:17):
I I I I love that. Frederick was saying, we called
it Drakorog Dimuda so that wecan take D and D's place before
it's taken root in Sweden. Yeah.That is very

Dave (56:27):
Yeah. And D and D in yeah. Exactly. And so

Magnus (56:31):
it it will be quite a turn if Wizards of the Coast
would if they had gone thatroute and the Wizards of the
Coast had said, well, this herebook, it says here that they
they chose because they wantedto take our our trademark. So,
Magnus, you know, the wit forWizards of the coast. No.

Matthew (56:46):
No. No. No. No. You got plenty of time for that to
happen.
You you haven't yet gotdistribution in America yet. So
Oh. Which is the coast probablyhaven't read it. So No. You may
still be called to Fabulous orsubpoenaed, I guess, to a case.
I don't think so. Yeah. Theother thing that I thought you
know, the first thing youlearned on the first paragraph
of chapter 1 is how old Gathcon,which we were talking about,

(57:12):
earlier on, How old Gothcon is?I mean, although, you know, it
started off as Convent, and youtalk about D and D arriving at
Convent Convention 77 in 1977,and that, you know, that being
the the beginning of of of roleplaying in Sweden. Mhmm.

(57:33):
But we haven't got, have we, aconvention that's lasted so long
in this country, have we, Steve?Steve?

Dave (57:42):
Dave? So so Steve and Eric

Matthew (57:44):
games day.

Dave (57:45):
So Steve and Eric, let's ask them what's what's going on.
No. It it would be like as ifgames day had remained all the
way through to now, whichobviously I I don't remember
what year it stopped. But, wewent in the eighties. But, yeah,
nothing has been anywhere nearas enduring as that.
No.

Magnus (58:04):
Oh, that's cool. And it it's it started out as Convent,
77 Convent 8. Convent being theSwedish word for convention.
Yeah. And and it's it's quitefunny that that when, Mikael
Berjesson, who is one of the thefounding fathers of the Swedish
hobby, was calling to, againstwe're actually to place an ad

(58:25):
for the convention in in WhiteWolf.
He spoke to Aldi Fiori there,and and he's like, Convent? Is
is this something for nuns orsomething? Yeah. So so

Dave (58:35):
That might that might get you quite a lot of old blokes
coming along anyway, but fortotally different reasons.

Magnus (58:42):
Nuns with dice. So, had to make up a name for it on the
spot spot. So he just call itgothcon. And it's not a it's
like it's not a gothcon. It's

Dave (58:55):
No.

Magnus (58:55):
Con in Gothenburg, one of the major cities of Swedish
role playing game history. Sothat's quite at the drop of a
hat, he had to sort of like, oh,well, I have to call it
something else. Well, let's callit a goth call.

Matthew (59:09):
Yeah. On on a very expensive international phone
call.

Magnus (59:12):
Yeah. Exactly. And and that's that that that can also
be sort of like something that Ithink that Swedish warping
history can be summed up aswell. Things things happened.
Sometimes they weren't planned.
They just happened. And and,it's, I I probably that is the
same for the states, but inSweden, there are many

(59:33):
coincidences. Mhmm. Some somemore some have more luck than
others. Dungeons Dragons wastranslated into Swedish by
Mikael Berrioson, but due tounfortunate events, he, never
got got it off the ground, andand, it, was stopped being
published.
So those dragons tried to makeit in Sweden, but it couldn't,

(59:57):
couldn't topple the, the thedragonbane.

Matthew (01:00:00):
Mhmm. But, of course Yeah. History could have been so
different. I I also love thestory about how a a consignment
of Jack Ockedemoto was beingdriven, in in an Alfa Romeo when
the steering wheel came off.

Magnus (01:00:15):
Yeah. Exactly. And, so that that could have killed,
killed 2 of the most importantpeople in in the, Swedish
football history, and thingsmight have been very different.
One thing that we're talkingabout now is that why didn't the
established board game producersthat we had or the established

(01:00:37):
role playing no. Board gameproducer in Sweden that we had.
Why didn't they try role playinggames? And I don't think I don't
have an answer, and and I don'tthink anyone else has an answer.
So I'll have to I'll have I Ihave a list of things that I
wanna do, add, for this the 2.0edition of this book in about 10

(01:00:57):
years, 15 years. And and that'sone thing that I'll I'll look
into. Why didn't someone elsefrom the board game section of
the whole of the industry tryrole playing games?

Dave (01:01:10):
Yeah. It's really interesting reading the book and
and getting the sense ofnostalgia of of those days.

Magnus (01:01:16):
Mhmm.

Dave (01:01:16):
But, also, I mean, you talk about things like the the,
you know, the the the satanicpanic about Dungeons and Dragons
and role playing games and andthe effect that that may or may
not have had. I mean, I Iremember hearing about it in
the, I guess, in the earlyeighties when I was 14 or 15. I
don't ever remember it reallyhaving an impact in the UK. But

(01:01:36):
what I do remember reallyclearly, is you'd never tell
anybody else that you playedDungeons and Dragons. Not unless
you know, a couple of couple ofmy very good friends who I kind
of eventually came out to andsaid, oh, have you ever played
Dungeons and Dragons?
And they both said, oh, yeah. Weused to play that as kids, but

(01:01:57):
I've known them for years andhad never even dared raise the
fact that I played d and d. Wow.So I wonder if there's a thing
in in in that that so it's Ihaven't got that sense in in
your book yet. I mean, you talkabout the the the the death of
role playing in Sweden beforethe resurgence.
And I wonder if there was alittle bit of that kind of

(01:02:18):
feeling in that period, but Idon't get that sense from your
book in the same way that I feltit back in the eighties.

Matthew (01:02:24):
No. I mean, quite the opposite. You know? In fact,
actually, I wanted to unpackthis a little bit more. So,
again, later on in in in thebook or even in the first
chapter, I can't remember, youtalk about the club scene in
Sweden, which seems to be a lotmore organized.
I mean, Dave and I were membersof a of a of a club, but, you

(01:02:44):
know, that club was 5 of us whoplayed games at my house, and
called ourselves a club, whereasthere seemed to be more support
for social clubs around allsorts of things in Sydney.

Dave (01:02:57):
Clubs with lots of lots of many of members.

Matthew (01:03:00):
And I wanted to talk a little bit about that and how
you've got a you've got anoverarching organization for
role playing and wargaming,clubs. Does that still go? Does
it still live?

Magnus (01:03:10):
Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And and that's one of the most
difficult things about this bookis that, one of the unique
things about the Swedish gaminghobby is that, we are sort of
grounded in a Swedish politicalmovement of, educating the

(01:03:32):
people, which is sort of likethe the state supplies education
to people so that people canraise their competence in
different things, try differentthings, and become more
employable and and maybe changethe so that basically, so that
people wouldn't have to befarmers all their lives. Mhmm.

(01:03:55):
So sort of the state suppliesthat.
And I I sat down thinking, howcan I explain this for an
American audience? They won'tunderstand what I'm talking
about. This this state

Matthew (01:04:05):
Smacks that smacks socialism to me. Oh, yeah.

Magnus (01:04:08):
Communism. Communism. Communism. Uganda. Everything.
But but it it there there is a aa tradition of the state
offering support for broadeningyour horizons and learning new
stuff.

Matthew (01:04:25):
Mhmm.

Magnus (01:04:25):
And we do that in study circles. We do that in in like,
people can go they can readbooks and talk about them. They
can learn to sculpt. They canread about history. They can do
a lot of things in their sparetime.
And and then they will get ifthey are young people, they can
sort of form a a club, and theywill get support money from the

(01:04:47):
state. Like, if you if you makesure that 10 young people gather
into this club and do awholesome activity, such as
like, playing rock music is awholesome activity in Sweden.

Matthew (01:04:59):
Mhmm.

Magnus (01:04:59):
So you could get you could get money, not lot not a
lot, of course. But if you're agaming group and you meet every
week for a year and you get,like, £10.10 a quid for every
member for every session thatthat you every time you meet, it
adds up, and you use that to tobuy more games and and and you

(01:05:21):
you stay off the streets and andyou you you sort of, like,
contribute to to people learningnew stuff. And that that's one
of the the strongest aspects ofthe Swedish hobby. And so we
also form these local clubs,like 5 people, 10 people. But

(01:05:41):
there also is a centralorganization which organizes
these clubs.
So we weren't we weren'tisolated, points of light Mhmm.
In this in in the country. Wewere like we knew that there
were other gaming clubs, and andwe we could have events and to
meet together. And and we had anan organization that could help

(01:06:02):
us communicate, exchange ideas,and and just just, arrange
larger gaming meetings andconventions and stuff like that.
And and that's, that that alsomeant that there are a lot of us
who sort of interfaced with withthe adult world through, these

(01:06:24):
clubs because you had to talk tothe local politicians.
You had to apply to to to getthese, this money, and you you
had to sort of follow a aspecial organizational

Dave (01:06:36):
Set of rules

Magnus (01:06:37):
and stuff. A set of rules. Exactly. You had to have
a a someone who decided who whodecided You had

Matthew (01:06:43):
to have offices in your club. Exactly.

Magnus (01:06:45):
Yeah. You had to have secretary. You had to have this
and this and this. Mhmm. Sopeople learn how to organize,
and, they learn how to putevents together.
And and, that has helped thehobby to to sort of be cohesive
and sort of, like, be a bighobby and not just people here

(01:07:06):
and there playing role playinggames. It's like, this is a huge
bunch of people, and they areorganized together. So we have a
voice in Sweden through this,national organization. I don't
always agree with what they say,but, it's it's, it's still it's
it's a it's a central force,which sort of like when the the

(01:07:30):
moral panic, the satanic paniccame to Sweden, they had to step
in and say, hey. This isoutrageous.
This is not what gaming isabout. So they had to become
more political and and take astand saying, well, we stand for
informing people about the hobbyand also encouraging people to
organize and show people thatyou exist and that you are just

(01:07:54):
like any other hobby. So thatthat means that the visibility
overall playing games might havebeen much higher in Sweden than
it had been in UK in the UK.

Matthew (01:08:05):
Mhmm.

Dave (01:08:06):
Yeah.

Magnus (01:08:06):
But still, there are people who have stayed sort of,
like, anonymous about theirgaming.

Dave (01:08:14):
Mhmm.

Magnus (01:08:14):
So so it's it's I think, in a way, I think that my bias
shines through in the book aboutthis because I've never been,
shy about telling everyone thatI'm a gamer. Yes. So so for me,
it's, like, so so much part ofmy identity, and and it it it

(01:08:35):
has also helped meprofessionally. And I have not
experienced what other gamershave had. They've some people I
know had their games confiscatedand pulped or burned, and they
had to play in secret.
And and a lot of people up untilsort of like 10 years ago were
sort of like, well, I used toplay, but that's not something I

(01:08:56):
do now. But now you can wearyour nerd pin with pride.

Dave (01:09:02):
With pride. Yeah. Yeah.

Magnus (01:09:03):
And if you oh, you play role playing games. Can we try?
Is is a more common thing than,oh, you play roleplaying games.
You're such a pathetic nerd.

Dave (01:09:11):
Weird. Yeah.

Magnus (01:09:12):
Yeah. Exactly. So so it's it's I think it's it's it
never was, for me at least, aswhat you're describing, Dave,
but for some, it was.

Matthew (01:09:25):
Mhmm. But I I'm fascinated by this, you know,
government supported gamingbecause I I think it has paid
dividends over time. I mean, youlook at, the Swedish computer
games industry. You know? Mostof the guys working for Free
League actually are you know,have got day jobs still in
computer games and things likethat.

(01:09:49):
And, I mean, we talk is it I'mjust trying to remember who who
runs cabinet. Is it notFrederick Malmberg? Who

Magnus (01:09:57):
Yeah. Exactly. And he he was also instrumental in in
forming Paradox.

Matthew (01:10:06):
Mhmm.

Magnus (01:10:07):
A lot of gamers were instrumental in in setting up,
several of the the majorcomputer game houses in Sweden.
And as like you say, a lot ofthe Free League people worked or
or still work. But he has Lilia,for example, who's involved in
Free League. He's the co CEO ofParadox now. Mhmm.
Frederik Wester, who is, theCEO, he used to be a part of the

(01:10:32):
Iron Ring, Jan Ringen, who wasthe precursor precursor of
Freely. And, we have FrederikMalenbrand and a lot of other
people. Helmgast people, a lotof them work for Paradox as
well. Mhmm. So and that that's athat's a much much larger
industry than the the Swedishroleplaying industry, the
computer games industry.
But, also, we sort of, like,supply a lot of screenwriters

(01:10:56):
and and and, creatives forother, fields of of culture and
media, that that have theirroots in, in role playing games.

Matthew (01:11:07):
And and in cabinet, Frederic Malmberg has, you know,
kept hold of some of the IP fromapart from Jack o' Doubeney.

Magnus (01:11:15):
Yeah. Exactly.

Matthew (01:11:16):
Those early games of Newton and also, of course,
brought others in. So, Dave,you're writing for Conan, RPG
now, but the Conan brand andeverything that is Conan as a
character is is effectivelyowned by Frederic Malmberg and
and the gang.

Magnus (01:11:33):
Yeah. It's sort of like they sold to, I I forget. Is it
come on or is it let's see here.Well, he sold it to some some
bigger corporation and corporateentity, but he's still in
control of the of the brands andand the licensing deals and
stuff like that. Mhmm.
So so he he got a hold of co theConan, property, the the brand,

(01:11:59):
not the stories because they'renot included in the in the
brand, but the brand. And, inthe end, also Solomon k and and
stuff like that. So it's it's

Matthew (01:12:12):
So that's a neat grounding in business sense and
stuff. Yeah.

Magnus (01:12:15):
Exactly. And and he's he's such an important
entrepreneur as well. And and Ithink that that's also one thing
that that, we have discussedabout, because when when I wrote
this book, I based it on a lotof other books, of course.
There's nothing new here forSwedish gamers with an interest
in in in their role playinghistory. But, one thing that has
sort of erupted after the booknow is that now people have sort

(01:12:38):
of, like, a source that they cansay, I don't agree with this.
I agree with this. I don't agreewith this. That's all I've got.
So it's it's sort of likecreating more discussion. And
one thing that that we, alsodiscussed is that how how is it
possible for a game industry insocialist Sweden to be so

(01:13:01):
dependent on on entrepreneurs.
Mhmm. Because sort of like, weSwedes, we think that, well,
being a business person inSweden is frowned upon and and
everyone is a worker, and we area socialist country. Blah blah
blah. But it's much morecomplicated than that. It's that
that this organized part ofgaming, which is which is not is

(01:13:22):
nonprofit.
It's something you do on yourspare time in your spare time.
It it's it's nothing. Most mostconventions in Sweden are run
by, nonprofit organizations.They are not run by, the the
companies. The spear that I wentto last Saturday, that's run by
Free League.
But apart from that, there areclubs doing the conventions.

(01:13:45):
But, it it also seems that weneed to have the entrepreneurs,
trailblazers, basically. AndFrederic Malware has been one of
these trailblazers that, he hesort of, like, opened everything
up together with a lot of otherpeople, of course, but he's sort
of like the the one person thatcomes around again and again and

(01:14:09):
again and again. So so it's it'sit's important to to also
realize that luck andcircumstance is also very
important in this. And I thinkthat, for example, 3 league,
they have Thomas Harenstone,which is a is a shrewd
businessperson.
And I think that's also one ofthe the important things to to

(01:14:29):
acknowledge when it comes to thesuccess of Swedish Volpeying is
that you have to have someonewho knows how to turn it into a
business.

Matthew (01:14:38):
Yeah. But there's a Mhmm. There's also a a sense of
confidence and chutzpah anddrive. And I we've said this
before on the podcast that, youknow, here's Dave and I. You
know, we might have hadfantasies about publishing our
own games when we wereteenagers, but here we are in
our fifties, and we're doing ourfirst one.

(01:14:59):
Yep. Whereas, again, I don'twanna I don't wanna make this a
a a a Frederick Muhlenberg,worship thing. But, you know, at
14 or whatever, he sets up hisfirst distribution company, you
know, not brilliantlyprofessionally at 14, but, you
know, he gets the idea I can buyGames of America cheap, and,

(01:15:22):
also, I can buy more Games ofAmerica cheap and sell them on
to my friends. And and, youknow, at 14, has the nerve to
get in touch with Chaosium andtalk to them about their games
and and stuff like that. And itfeels a lot like, the favorite
bloke I've whose name I've justforgotten, but, you know, the 12
year old who went to work as aneditor for Chaosium.

(01:15:43):
Mhmm. Greg Stafford soon seemsto be able to you know, when
precocious kids come to him andsay, oh, I'm doing this thing.
He goes, oh, that that soundsgreat. Here, do you want some
games? Mhmm.

Magnus (01:15:54):
Yeah. Exactly. And and that's that's the thing. It's
that that

Matthew (01:16:00):
the Swedish Ken Volsten is the name.

Magnus (01:16:02):
Ken Volsten. Okay. Yeah. It's it's the Swedish, the
forefathers, of the Swedish roleplaying game industry and hobby
were very young. Mhmm.
They were they were in thetwenties. So so it's it's, that
also, of course, shaped a lot ofthings that happened. And and it

(01:16:23):
it's sometimes it's difficult toremember that, Target games
start around 82, 81, 82, 83, andand they went bankrupt 1999. And
we're like, oh, it's such atragic story and and everything.
But, the average lifespan of aof a corporation, a company, at

(01:16:49):
least in Sweden, is measured inin a couple of years.

Matthew (01:16:53):
Mhmm.

Magnus (01:16:54):
So it it it is difficult to keep a business going for a
longer time. And if you're 20when you start, it's equal it's
even more difficult, I think, tosort of like, okay. I will
dedicate my life to this companyfor 20 years. Mhmm. And and then

(01:17:15):
do that strategically and andnever do a misstep.
There there there were missteps,and and there were things that
could have done gone verydifferently. But Frederic, he
stuck out with it. He stuck withit, and he never sort of left
the the hobby. And that'ssomething that also is is really

(01:17:35):
evident nowadays is that, he'svery much involved, and and
people can just message him onFacebook and ask, I wanna have a
have a go at this license. Isthis, free?
And he's like, make apresentation, and I'll I'll I'll
talk to you. He's he's veryavailable for us, younger

(01:17:56):
gamers. Me being 55 being ayounger gamer. Yeah.

Matthew (01:18:02):
And, so we talked so that's the business side, but
also the creative side I wantedto talk about, briefly. One
thing again, out of what I'veread so far, and I'm by no means
even halfway through the bookyet. But, one of the things I
thought was very interesting wasthe Swedish approach to

(01:18:27):
adventure writing that seemed totake place, which I I'm I'm
gonna put it to you, Magnus. Itmay be a symptom or not so much
an exclusively Swedish thing,but a thing that was happening
at the time that managed to ridea wave. So I remember a point in

(01:18:49):
the early eighties when inEngland, we were fed up with
dungeons and looking at,obstacles and things like that,
you know, and trying to openout, get out of the dungeon, and
Yep.
Now fantasy gaming is all aroundthe world. And I think as well,
as a group, we enjoy traveler alot more than most fantasy games

(01:19:10):
because traveler allows you todo that faction factional
intrigue and stuff in a way thatthat wasn't just following a
dungeon down to the big bad atthe end. But very much, it
seemed to be that from theearliest Swedish language
adventures, people were thinkingin that way. We're thinking

(01:19:34):
about, let's not have this as adungeon. Let's have this as a
social adventure where you'vegot all these different
factions.
Being, of course, probably themost famous, but actually the
whole the whole world back thenof, Drakkar Dmunna, the name of
which I've just forgotten, beingbuilt on that sort of way rather

(01:19:56):
than just a series of dungeonsone after the other.

Magnus (01:19:59):
Yeah. The first official world for Drucker the Morner was
Erevaltor. That's what I'mlooking for. And so that's what
you think. Yeah.
But the Swedish, the Swedishgame design philosophies are are
much more sandbox based. Mhmm.Much more, relationship based,

(01:20:21):
and and a lot more story basedthan, the dungeon crawls of
Dungeons and Dragons. And and Idon't really or I can't really
say that it's it was a reaction,but but the early writers were
definitely reacting to Dungeonsand Dragons and saying that we

(01:20:42):
wanna do this differently. Wewant to do this more.
What I say is a more intimatesetting in in that, you don't
have huge sprawling empires, andhuge

Matthew (01:20:57):
Dark lords.

Magnus (01:20:58):
Forest. Dark lords and and and and level 20 adventures.
It does. Everything is is a lotmore grounded, and everything is
much more, closer to the to theadventure, basically. And it's
much more based around forgingalliances and and and and
forging relationships with thethe the the embassies

(01:21:20):
surrounding you and then thenthe world surrounding you as
well.
Especially since since the, thebasic role playing base of of
Swedish role playing games atthe time, we sort of gravitated
towards low hit points, type. Soyou could die whenever, Yeah.
Sort of like fosters a differentkind of, adventuring strategy,

(01:21:43):
basically.

Dave (01:21:44):
Yeah.

Magnus (01:21:44):
So like gang up on people instead or or just try to
talk yourself out of out of outof trouble. And that started
already in 83, 84, 85. And Callof Cthulhu is very popular in
Sweden, and that's one of thosegames. Of course, that's also a
basic role playing game. It's agame.
Yeah. Also very muchrelationship based and player

(01:22:09):
interaction, and, things likethat. And and I think that,
although I I I I might onlytouch on that briefly in the
book, Games Workshop was reallyimportant for us because many of
the games that we bought werethe Games Workshop versions. My
first Call of Cthulhu, box setwas the Games Workshop, box of

(01:22:35):
the second edition. Ruin Quest,many many got the Games Workshop
books.
And, of course, White Dwarf wasone of the the role playing
games that we actually could getin Swedish, magazine stores.
Tobacco is they carried whitefor for some extremely strange

(01:22:55):
reason. I don't know why, but,I've I've spoken to several
hobby people who who sort oflike, yeah. White wolf was sort
of like hour of window into thethe world outside. So And,

Matthew (01:23:09):
of course, white dwarf, we're talking about when it was
good, when it was When it

Magnus (01:23:12):
was good. Before

Matthew (01:23:13):
just warhammer. No. Exactly.

Magnus (01:23:15):
So I started Yeah. Issue 68 and, ended in issue at 100 20
or something like that. Yeah.But but then that also means
that, as Warmer fan's role play,erupted when Warmer fan's role
play erupt on the scene, itbecame very popular in Sweden.

(01:23:37):
And that also that that's also akind of gameplay that we enjoy.
Yeah. Of course, Warnefersauptalso developed into something
else and stuff. But but, I mean,Shadows of Bogenhagen and and
Power Behind the Throne, Deathof the Reich, adventures like
that could easily have been,written in Swedish for for

(01:23:59):
dragon. So we had a lot to to tothank, GB for.

Matthew (01:24:07):
That bridge, that stepping stone to the American
game.

Magnus (01:24:11):
Oh, yeah. Exactly. Absolutely. And, I mean, Graham
Davies has written for Vaesennow, for example. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. Yep. So, I think that thatthat's that's a game that that
really sort of feels Warhammerfantasy or play y to me, with
with the aesthetics aestheticsand and the general mystery.

(01:24:34):
It's it's, I love Shadows of aBogenhaiften. It's it's a hugely
influential adventure for me.

Matthew (01:24:41):
Excellent. We should, we should probably be be
wrapping up soon. Dave, I've yougot any more questions you want
to ask? You've read a bitfurther into the book than I
have at the moment.

Dave (01:24:51):
Yeah. I guess the one the one that I haven't really got to
is kind of the modern day. Imean, I've reached the bit where
where we've talked about the thethe so called death of the role
playing game industry and, andthen, obviously, there's a
resurgence. I you know, is it isit just you know, this is gonna

(01:25:13):
sound really bad. Is it justFree League?
Is that is that what theresurgence is? Can you say a bit
more about that?

Magnus (01:25:19):
Yeah. It's it that's actually an interesting thing.
It's because when we planned outthis book, we we planned it to
have 10 chapters of sort ofequal length. But as I wrote it,
I sort of realized that, well, Ican't do that. So some some
chapters are longer and some areshorter.
And one of the central premisesof of this this three act. No.

(01:25:44):
It turned out to be 4 parts, butwe wanted to have sort of, like,
the start, the death, theresurgence because that's a good
dramatic yeah. Development ofthat. But when I came to the
death of World Bangers, I didn'thave that much to say,
basically.
It's like well, it sort of itsort of petered out. But, as I
looked into it, it it turns outthat I like, I say in the book

(01:26:07):
is that it turns out thatroleplaying games didn't die.
They just changed hands. We, theold guard, we sort of, like,
left it for for dead, but therewere younger gamers who were
working on the, on their gamesand and building their own
companies and building their ownfan bases. And it it's even

(01:26:31):
started with a company calledNeo Games in Mhmm.
91996 when they released, NeoTech and a game called EON,
which is a fantasy game. The EONgame is is is a detailed hugely
detailed and comprehensive,fantasy playing game that, was

(01:26:51):
immensely popular in in thesouthern parts of Sweden,
especially in Gothenburg. Andthat sort of like wild Target
Games that created Drucker theMortar was dying, they were sort
of, like, building up theirbusiness. So so nothing nothing
really died. It's it's just sortof like More

Dave (01:27:10):
of a transition.

Magnus (01:27:11):
Yeah. Except more of a more of a transition. But, of
course, we like to talk aboutthe death of role playing games
because it sounds so dramatic.And and it was a a thing that we
thought in the 2000 that roleplaying games were dead. But we
forgot about Nier games, andthen right minds came to this on
the scene with the a new versionof Dragonbane.
And Iron Ring, Jan Rengian, in2000, with Mutant.

Matthew (01:27:35):
Mhmm.

Magnus (01:27:36):
And they have a a couple of fans who, later started
something called Free League.

Dave (01:27:43):
Mhmm.

Magnus (01:27:43):
So so it's a progression. I have 4 or 5
companies that that sort oflike, Neogate picked up in 96.
Right? Mine's in 2,000. IronRing in 2,002, 3, like that, and
then Free League, entered thescene.
But there are also a lot ofsmall vanity press, companies as
well. So if you want to sort of,like, list the the amount of

(01:28:06):
role playing games that havebeen published in Sweden since
the death of role playing,

Matthew (01:28:11):
you would you would

Magnus (01:28:12):
have, like, 30, 40, 50. I don't know how many. Yeah. Not
everyone is huge, of course, butmost of them are are really
good.

Matthew (01:28:21):
Actually, I wanted to ask a little bit about that. So,
you know, obviously, Free Leaguepublish sometimes they might be
accused of publishing in Englishfirst rather than Swedish. Now
we know they've got some Swedishlanguage games that we're never
gonna see, but, broadly, isthere a Swedish language game
that you know about which youthink really deserves a

(01:28:41):
translation into English, whichhasn't happened yet?

Magnus (01:28:45):
I think Ian, would be the one, because that that's
such a huge world building,thing. And it it the rules are
very different from from Dracode Moner. And I know that they
are talking about it, but itit's sort of, like, never
happened. It's it's neverhappened. But Ian is one such
thing.
It's it's huge. It's like, theequivalent of the Desmarzse

(01:29:08):
Augie in in Austria and Germany.It's a huge game. It was late to
be published in in English, butdidn't really hit it off.

Matthew (01:29:16):
So Yeah. I remember, in fact, that when we did, when we
recorded our Swedish styleepisode, a lot of comments after
that were, how how come youdidn't mention that? How come
you didn't

Magnus (01:29:27):
mention that?

Matthew (01:29:27):
It's like yeah. So

Magnus (01:29:30):
And I I sort of I I sort of answered that in the book
because it's it's such a sillything, but there there was a
rivalry between Gothenburg andStockholm

Dave (01:29:37):
Uh-huh.

Magnus (01:29:38):
Who who's the who's the capital of, role playing games.
And I'm in I'm in Stockholm, soI I I didn't really know
anything about neo games. Andit's only lately that I've
looked looked into them. I Ilearned to know them. We're
friends now, and and I I knowthem well now, but I didn't
really I've never played any ofof Nier Games' games.

(01:30:01):
So so sort of for me, that was ablind spot. And, yes, that
that's one thing that we missedin in the Swedish style
discussion. Apart from that, ofcourse, I, I think that most of
the really good games aretranslated, like
troubleshooters. I lovetroubleshooters. Mhmm.
Mutant, of course. I think itwould be a cool thing if if the

(01:30:22):
Iron Ring version of Mutantwould be translated. It never
will be, but it would be Okay.Great sort of, like,
documentation of of things forfor the for the people outside
of Sweden because it's such auniquely Swedish game. It's it's
grounded in our culture, in ourhistory, in a lot of politics

(01:30:44):
about Sweden and and stuff likethat, industrialization of of of
the countryside and and thingslike that.
So so, but I I think that Ian is1, and one that I know people
are asking about as well isMhmm. Call of Cthulhu Sweden.

(01:31:04):
Okay. This the Swedishlocalization of Call of Cthulhu
is not it's not a translation.It is localization, which means
that it is written with Swedishbackground, Swedish history,
Swedish everything.
Of course, it's the same rules,but it it is very much a
Swedish, It's like you wouldpublish a Swedish campaign book.

(01:31:27):
And I know people are asking forthat, and I'm hoping that
someone will do that sometime. Astrange thing there, though, is
that I spoke to some people andand, at the SPIR Congress, I
think BlackRock were there. Thethe the Polish, people who work
with Gaussian. Mhmm.
And I think we talked about Idon't have them. Maybe no. No.

(01:31:49):
Wait. Wait.
Sorry. I'm rambling. GunillaJohansson and Mika Petterson are
2 people who are very,influential for the Swedish role
playing hobby, and they writeCthulhu material now in Swedish.
And they said that they someonewanted to bring, an adventure
from Sweden over to the States,like, not translated and have it

(01:32:11):
set in Sweden, but set in,Massachusetts or something like
that. And and I'm like, why?
Why would you do that? There areplenty of American based
adventures already. Yeah. Set inset in Sweden.

Matthew (01:32:25):
Martin didn't you know, there there were also plenty of
global adventures. Yep. Why nothave one in Sweden? Exactly.

Magnus (01:32:33):
Yeah. I mean, Mark Mark's often not a thought type
picture of game mastered 4 or 5times. It's it's, everyone dies
in Egypt. And and, it's like NewYork, London, Egypt, Nairobi,
Shanghai, and and Australia. Sowhy not Sweden?
So but I I'd like to see theSwedish material. And I I I'd
like to see Sweden it's like inVaasen as well. It's it's like

(01:32:55):
people play in Sweden, play inScandinavia. And I like that.
Sweden has become sort of likean established setting that it
it it's okay to write adventureset in Sweden if you're a Swede.
When I was when I when I wasyounger and I I wrote
adventures, I always set them.If it was cyberpunk adventure,

(01:33:17):
it was always in in the NeoTokyo or Neo this or Neo that or
something. Never Sweden.

Matthew (01:33:24):
Because Never Neo in Stockholm.

Magnus (01:33:26):
Yeah. No. It sound never. Never. No.
Because that that soundedboring. But now Sweden has been
rehab rehabilitatedrehabilitated, as as a place
where you could actually find alot of interesting adventures.
And

Dave (01:33:40):
I think there's definitely an interesting kind of element
that, certainly in the UK, and Idon't know if it's the same in
in in the US or elsewhere, butthere's definitely a sense and
has been kind of all my lifethat something that comes from
Sweden is just that bit betterthan everything else. Sweden is
just that bit better. You know?Yeah.

Matthew (01:34:00):
Yeah. Volvo. Volvo.

Magnus (01:34:02):
Just just

Dave (01:34:03):
generally. Just that sense doesn't matter it doesn't matter
what it is. Just culturally,Sweden is a place where
everything is a bit better.

Magnus (01:34:10):
Yes. It is, actually. So yeah. Yeah. No.
It's it's, and that's great. Andand I I think, I I did I did
listen to a lot of your podcastswhen I wrote this book. I
listened to that first visit youhad to to Stockholm, for
example. So that that was helpedme shape my thoughts and ideas

(01:34:32):
about what to write about in thebook. And and we are very happy
about the reception of Swedishrole playing games outside of
Sweden.
Of course, we are very proud.Most of us really think that
it's such a cool thing, thatpeople outside of Sweden think
that Swedish games are a littlebit better, basically, than the

(01:34:56):
local local audience.

Matthew (01:34:57):
I haven't yet got to the chapter, Magnus, where you
talk about how the effectpodcast is the thing that draw
Swedish games

Dave (01:35:05):
to rest of the world. Yeah. Exactly.

Magnus (01:35:07):
I want to, I want to add, for the 10 year next
version 2.0, I I think I willadd a section about podcasting
because we have very goodpodcasts in Sweden

Matthew (01:35:18):
as well. Sweden roles and,

Magnus (01:35:21):
Red Moon role playing. Yeah.

Dave (01:35:22):
So that

Magnus (01:35:23):
and we have very a lot of very good Swedish language,
podcasts as well. And, ofcourse, we also are very happy
that that some people, broaddedicate their whole podcast to
Swedish role playing games. Andit's it's such a fabulous it's
such a strange feeling,actually.

Matthew (01:35:40):
Mhmm. It's

Magnus (01:35:40):
really cool. So so but but we don't exist in a bubble.
Swedish role playing games are apart of a global, global hobby.
And with the Internet,everything melds together. It's
it's it was a lot easier to talkabout Swedish, Swedish games as
being Swedish, earlier on.

(01:36:01):
But now if if you look at Alien,a few of the, of the authors are
not from Sweden. Well, most ofthe authors are not from Sweden.

Dave (01:36:08):
That's true. Yeah.

Magnus (01:36:09):
Some of them are from the UK.

Matthew (01:36:12):
And and it's interesting, so I never realized
this, but the first artist onthe first edition of was
American. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Magnus (01:36:22):
Yeah. And and that that that that's also funny that that
that, is is something that wenever knew back then, because we
sort of like you weren't youdidn't have access to people
like we have today back then.Mhmm. So so we we didn't know a
lot about about these things.But but the the story about, the

(01:36:46):
first also, that that's thestory about the first box art,
is is Yes.
Also Friedrich Malmberg givingsomeone, a kid, a chance. Yeah.
And then and that kid didsomething that that he wasn't
really that happy with, butwhich became really a big thing

(01:37:06):
in Sweden. And he didn't knowabout that because he sort of
did the things, and thenFrederic Malmo moved back to
Sweden, and and he never henever knew about the the what
had happened to the game that hehad illustrated. So so it it's

Matthew (01:37:23):
Yeah. But then I I also like that story of him hearing
it overhearing a discussion in agame shop where

Magnus (01:37:29):
Yeah.

Matthew (01:37:30):
Somebody will say, well, the interior art's not
bad, but that cover is dreadful.Exactly. Open up.

Magnus (01:37:36):
And I always thought it was I always thought it was
dreadful. It's it's on theinside of the of the cover.

Dave (01:37:42):
I always thought

Magnus (01:37:43):
it was it was dreadful. But knowing that as a teenage
boy with with no formal,education, he did that, formal
art training or anything, didthat. It's I sort of have a
renewed appreciation of it.

Matthew (01:37:59):
Yeah.

Dave (01:37:59):
And it's and it's reminiscent of quite a lot of
the artwork that you saw back inthat time. Yeah. In comparison
to the other artwork, it'sactually it it compares well to
a lot of it.

Magnus (01:38:10):
It does. It does. And that's something that's easy to
forget because Yeah. Late laterversions had a cover by Michael
Whelan, which is one of the thegreatest fantasies

Matthew (01:38:18):
The Elric. The,

Magnus (01:38:20):
Yeah. The Elric

Matthew (01:38:20):
Yeah. Thing. Yeah.

Magnus (01:38:21):
Elric the Stormbringer thing. And and and it's so easy
to forget that much of the artthat that target games put on
there. Drug court the more inthe books was, repurposed from
image banks. Like, you youbought the rights to an existing

(01:38:41):
Yeah. Cover somewhere.
Yeah. But, it talking aboutcovers, I I think that one thing
that really blows me away withwith working, for example, with
Free League and, with FanRacknow is that, you get

Matthew (01:38:58):
the score just covered

Dave (01:38:59):
like that. It is superb, isn't it? Yeah.

Magnus (01:39:01):
It's such a good cover. And Johan Egercarz, who who did
the cover for Dragonbane Yeah.And also the interior for
Dragonbane. Yeah. This one.
And it it it's a if anyonedoesn't like ducks in fancy
gaming, you can show them thispicture, and it's like, okay.
This is okay. I don't likeducks, in fantasy. This is some

(01:39:24):
this is something that thatlooks badass. Yeah.

Dave (01:39:28):
Yes. Yeah.

Matthew (01:39:30):
And and so

Dave (01:39:31):
So so, where can we get hold of the book then, mate?
Where where is it available?

Magnus (01:39:38):
It's available in PDF from To fanbrake.com. Nice. And
then you can click your waythrough that. But we are working
on, international distributionfor the print, copies, print
version. And it's it's, I Isince I'm sort of, like, only a

(01:39:59):
freelance writer, I I don't knowthat much about distribution and
and the deals I've had.
Matt, you you sent me some somethings to look into, and and
FanDrake are looking into otherstuff. But it's it turns out
that it's a lot easier to get adeal done if you have the book.
Yeah. Going to a publishersaying that we're planning on

(01:40:20):
making a book, will you will youcarry it? And and they then they
will most likely say, well, get

Dave (01:40:26):
Get back to us when you've got the book.

Magnus (01:40:28):
Yeah. Exactly. Otherwise, it's like yeah. I
think a lot of people come thereand say that, well, we we will
we wanna make a book. Yeah.
But will you do it? And now thatwe have this huge tome, and it's
a fantastic cover, at least I'mhappy with the writing. And, I I

(01:40:48):
think it'll be a lot easier toto, have it being carried. Mhmm.
And we're hoping for the tradechannels in the States, of
course.
And that that should mean thatit shows up in the UK as well.

Dave (01:40:59):
Yeah. Nice. It is a great read, and I haven't finished it
yet, but I am 2 thirds of theway through. It is, and I'm
really enjoying it. I have I dohave one more question before we
finish up.
And, Matthew, have you gotanything else to ask before we

Matthew (01:41:11):
No. No. Let's I think I mean, we could talk to Magnus
all day.

Dave (01:41:16):
All day. Yeah. But, my wife will get angry when she's
waiting for me to turn up forlunch. But, my last question is
before we started recording, youwere talking about, you know, a
a retirement plan to sell offyour game collection in many
years' time. If you did do thatYeah.
What one game would you not selland keep from your collection?

Magnus (01:41:40):
I would keep the 1st edition of War of Fence
Soulplay.

Dave (01:41:44):
Cool. Nice. Excellent.

Magnus (01:41:48):
I I would, the the next to last game would be the 2nd
edition of Call of Cthulhu.Mhmm. And

Dave (01:41:57):
So think it at this point, you go you go through them all,
and then you don't sell any ofyour collection.

Magnus (01:42:02):
Yeah. Exactly.

Dave (01:42:04):
That that

Magnus (01:42:04):
that'll be a thing. That Which

Dave (01:42:05):
is what would happen for me, probably.

Magnus (01:42:07):
Yeah. Exactly. But but has been really influential on
on me and also on, a lot of thethe writers in of Swedish
warping games. And, it it's it'sa monumental work.

Matthew (01:42:20):
Mhmm.

Magnus (01:42:20):
And I have so many fond memories of of the games we
played when we played, Power bythe Throne, for example. So, the
influence on of UK games on theSwedish gaming industry is
understated in this book, atleast. And and I might want to
revisit that some some timelater.

Dave (01:42:43):
So so the final conclusion of of your book, How Sweden
Conquered the World ofRoleplaying Games, it's because
of UK gaming. That's the answer.

Magnus (01:42:52):
That's the answer. Well, I I I, I I I I I have to be
honest with this, and and I saidthat, I wrote the mutant
chronicles roleplaying game, andthat's a rip off of 40 k.

Matthew (01:43:04):
It does feel like a rip off of 40 k.

Magnus (01:43:06):
It does. Doesn't it? So so it's it's it is. It's also a
a question of of Swedishroleplaying games have have
always copied, other trends,other games, other people,
until, Free League now that thatthey are more charting their
own, way. And, of course, Neogames in the nineties and and

(01:43:26):
Yeah.
Right minds and and so the newergame companies in Sweden are
charting their own ways. We allhands we sort of like copy 1.

Matthew (01:43:33):
We've gotta shut Magnus up before he reveals. He's
already inviting one lawsuitfrom from. There's no way
anymore. No.

Dave (01:43:44):
No. Well, thank you so much, Magnus, for for coming on
the show. It's always a delightto talk to you. I I could talk
to you for hours, but my wifewill kill me if I don't go in
and I go in for lunch.

Magnus (01:43:55):
I'm happy to be here, and I hope to make a guest
appearance once we, secure therights so that I can remind,
your audience that the book,secured rights of distribution.
So I can remind your audiencethat now soon it will be in the
shops as well.

Dave (01:44:11):
Yeah. So it's always a real pleasure to talk to Magnus.
We ought to do it more often. Heis such a lovely guy, and he's
such a pleasure to talk to. Andnext time I, we, you go to
Stockholm, we must make a pointof inviting him out for dinner,
or at least a few beers becausehe is a because he is a
wonderful person.
No, but Yeah. I just want No.The Swedish prices, like, a
beer. True.

Matthew (01:44:28):
True. Well, we'll have to put it on the company, you
know, making a tax deductible.Well, hold on. We've only got
£30,000 from that book.

Dave (01:44:41):
Well, that's that's that's true. That's true. Yeah. That
yeah. That'd be

Matthew (01:44:45):
Swedish prices.

Dave (01:44:46):
In government. Yeah. That's true. No. I just wanted
to say, I mean, yeah.
It was it was it was lovely toto get the book. It is actually
a lovely book. I mean, it's areal, it's got a real nice heft
to it. A really good feel. Itlooks beautiful.
And you know, I will not Iwasn't just blowing smoke to be
nice about how much I'm enjoyingreading it, because I am really

(01:45:07):
enjoying reading it. I've gotabout a quarter left now. We we
call it recorded the interviewyesterday. Mhmm. I think, and
I've, you know, I've read somemore since then.
Yeah. And it's just a realpleasure. And it's it's fun. I'm
looking forward to to readingall the bits about you and me.

Matthew (01:45:27):
Yeah. Then You

Dave (01:45:27):
wanna get there?

Matthew (01:45:28):
I think we've read the bits about you and me. We get
mentioned in the acknowledgmentsand, around page 270 as creators
or not creators of the aliengame, as the team of creators
for the alien game. I thinkthat's it. Right?

Dave (01:45:44):
The the

Matthew (01:45:44):
chapter on the the impact of the Effect podcast on
the global gaming scene, sadly,is waiting for the 2nd edition.

Dave (01:45:51):
Sadly, didn't get past the editing editing. No. Yeah.

Matthew (01:45:55):
It's a it was the best chapter. They just said, Magnus
is just too good.

Dave (01:46:00):
Yeah. You're you're setting the standard too high
with this chapter. And thecontent is too interesting. We
can't give that to peoplebecause it'll affect them for
the rest of their lives. AnywayWell anyway

Matthew (01:46:10):
We did say we'd keep this recording short. It's
already well over an hour foryou guys listening. Yeah. So,
shall we? Next time, hopefully,we will have Anders,

Dave (01:46:21):
An Andreas Lundstrom. Andreas Even. Yeah. Yeah. From,
Nordic Skalds and

Matthew (01:46:27):
Talking about my father's sword. Not my father's
sword. My father never had asword. I've got plenty. But,

Dave (01:46:35):
there yeah. I'm Who

Matthew (01:46:38):
That Sounds a

Dave (01:46:38):
bit weird. Yeah. The kids the kids the kids

Matthew (01:46:40):
Don't go there.

Dave (01:46:41):
The kid the kid bit in my brain just kicked in there.

Matthew (01:46:43):
Yeah. I noticed that.

Dave (01:46:47):
Right. We'll we'll try and do that. End quickly. Yes.

Matthew (01:46:50):
And it's goodbye from me.

Dave (01:46:52):
Yeah. And it's goodbye from him.

Magnus (01:46:54):
And may the icons bless your adventures.

Dave (01:46:59):
You have been listening to the effect podcast presented by
Fiction Suit and the RPG Gods.Music stars on a black sea used
with permission of FreeleaguePublishing.

Magnus (01:55:02):
Well, if you're an international customer and you
want to buy the book, at themoment we only sell the PDF, and
that is available at,fanbrake.com, where you can,
look for the, look for the coverand, and click and then order
the PDF from there. We'reworking on international

(01:55:22):
distribution, but, it'll takesome time. It's a lot easier now
that there is a book that thatFenric actually can can show to
people and say that, hey, thisthis here is a book. So that
that's a good thing. So we'rehoping for, physical, copies
being out in the channel as soonas possible basically.

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