Pacifica

Episode Transcript
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Matthew (00:39):
Hello, and welcome to episode 257 of Effect Pacifica.
My name's Matthew.

Dave (00:48):
And I'm Dave. And as usual, we have a packed program
for you today. We've got littlebit of World of Gaming news to
talk about. There is some verygood news for our US backers for
Tales of the Old West, which wewill

Matthew (01:04):
Finally.

Dave (01:05):
Finally. Which we will explain in Old West News. And
Pacifica. Yeah. So the Pacific,the the big part of the show is
we had a fabulous interview withGI Garcia, Gabe Garcia of
Firelock Games, who who we knowpretty well.
He's a friend of the show. I'veworked with him on on War

(01:27):
Stories, and they are currentlykick starting with a couple of
days left at the time you'll behearing this, if you're
listening to it on the day theshow comes out, of their
expansion Kickstarter for WarStories, which is The Pacific.
And we had a fabulous chat withGabe, so you can hear all about
that a bit later on in the show.

Matthew (01:47):
And Gabe's always lovely to talk to.

Dave (01:49):
He is great. Yeah.

Matthew (01:50):
As a year zero game, I don't think War Stories gets
enough credit. In fact, afterthe show day, there is another
suggestion I wanna make, but wedon't need our listeners to talk
about

Dave (01:59):
that So

Matthew (02:01):
let's crack on. We've got no new patrons, but there
have been one or two that haveupgraded their patronies. Thank
you very much. Thank you. Youknow who you are, and of course,
thank you to all our patrons.
Because this show wouldn'thappen without you.

Dave (02:17):
No, indeed.

Matthew (02:18):
World gaming then.

Dave (02:21):
Yes. So Alien Evolved, the beta PDFs have come out, and
people are getting to look atthem, and think on the whole
liking what they're seeing.There's a very different layout
and graphic design style. I knowWhich

Matthew (02:40):
I love.

Dave (02:40):
Johan Noor has been working on that for them, which,
you know, as we all know, Johanis a sensationally talented
graphic artist and designer, andit does look really good. I I I
still find one thing slightlyjarring, and it's

Matthew (02:57):
Tell me.

Dave (02:58):
It might be just me, but you've got this lovely pale
effect and feel for the book nowwith, you know, obviously the
white background of the pages,that sort of, I don't know,
limey, greeny, bluey colour forthe text.

Matthew (03:12):
Yeah.

Dave (03:12):
Which is lovely. But then you've got some of the old
pictures which are there, agreat big slab of black. And
Yeah. That slightly jars for me.And also maybe, and I can
understand why they've done it,but a lot of they've reused a
lot of the original artwork.
And there's lots of good reasonsto do that, think. Because some
of that artwork

Matthew (03:33):
It's by marching grip, that's the main reason.

Dave (03:35):
Because it's fabulous artwork, you know, it's
brilliant stuff. But I thinkmaybe seeing out of the corner
of my eye that that that thatthe bit of artwork is something
that I'm very familiar with, andit's kind of looking out of
place because I know it from adifferent design of book. And
then that very stark, thoseimages are all very dark and
very, you know, go very wellwith that design where the whole

(03:59):
book is very dark. It just seemsto jar a little bit for me to
see it

Matthew (04:02):
Yeah.

Dave (04:03):
Flunked on that very pale

Matthew (04:04):
To be honest, I mean, obviously, you aren't a
qualified graphic designer, soyou can't really talk about this
subject. But I can.

Dave (04:11):
Well, I can. Because because I'm a I'm a I'm a
consumer of graphic design, andI've seen a lot of graphic
design.

Matthew (04:16):
Yeah. You're just a mere consumer.

Dave (04:17):
And I

Matthew (04:18):
can You only know what you like.

Dave (04:19):
And I can I can Why you like? I can register my opinion
on it, so which is what I'mdoing.

Matthew (04:25):
But I am saying that despite your, frankly,
inexperienced and naive attitudeto the art, you're entirely
right, Dave.

Dave (04:34):
It's right.

Matthew (04:37):
And and I think it's to do with the edges. This this was
art that in the original versionof Alien wasn't meant to have
edges, and now it has edges.Yeah. And and that's what jars,
I think. It it puts everythingin a little box, whereas once
upon a time, the art used toencompass your whole view.

(05:00):
It used to surround just

Dave (05:01):
flowed across the page, isn't it? In

Matthew (05:03):
the Yeah. Now now it's tucked in a little box. And,
frankly, the alien is a littlebit safer when it's kept in a
box, which is generally whatcolonists always understand and
try and achieve. Very rarelysucceeding, of course, that
being the whole point of Alien.So, yeah, it weirdly looks a bit
safer.

Dave (05:22):
Yeah.

Matthew (05:23):
And it's a real challenge. But overall, I'm
going for the accessibility ofthe book.

Dave (05:29):
Yes, I agree.

Matthew (05:30):
And the efficiency of this new layout as well. Because
people have said, Oh, God, itwas so wasteful, the old layout.
Which was a lovely attempt totry and put individual concepts
on their own page or their ownspread. So it had relatively few
words per page in terms of thelayout. And that was a lovely

(05:52):
thing to do, but made foractually quite an inefficient
read, and a lot of peoplenoticed that.
And this is a better layoutgenerally. More accessible, more
readable. But it would have beenoh, I don't know. Can you
commission can you can you dumpall that lovely artwork and
commission new artwork simply togo in with the page layout? It's

(06:14):
a real challenge.

Dave (06:14):
Yeah. And it's and it's a huge expense when you've already
got so much kind of iconic andsuperb artwork.

Matthew (06:21):
And just brilliant stuff. Brilliant.

Dave (06:22):
Yeah. Brilliant. Sitting in

Matthew (06:23):
a Even but it's now brilliant stuff kept in a little
box. So there we go. You can'talways win. I I I haven't so
I've only backed the starterset.

Dave (06:37):
Yep. Same here.

Matthew (06:38):
Because I wanted to have a starter set with my name
on it. And I'm very pleased tosee the first thing I opened was
the credits page just to makesure that yours and my name's
were still on it. And I was verypleased to see that. And I was
interested to see that our onlycollaborator on as a as a writer
of this is Thomas

Dave (06:58):
Yeah.

Matthew (06:58):
Which I can live with. I can live with Thomas mucking
about with our work. He is theboss after all.

Dave (07:02):
Yeah. That's true.

Matthew (07:03):
Yeah. So

Dave (07:05):
No. That's cool. Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's it's weird
because I obviously, a big a bigkind of, like, drive for this
evolved game is the ability tomake it easier for players to
use minis their in their games.And personal preference, I just

(07:32):
don't like it as much.
I think the maps that areproduced with minis in mind, I'm
not gonna say look a bit shit,but they look like a battle map.
They don't look like anevocative map of a location that
allows you to fill in the gapsand imagine what the ship is

(07:52):
actually like. It almost givestoo much detail, too much
information, and makes it feel,you know, much more like just
some kind of old generictraveler floor plans for a place
you leave you
rather than

Matthew (08:05):
Or not even traveler floor plans because they were
actually relatively simplistic.Or yeah. I mean,

Dave (08:09):
Corollionis style floor plans, I guess, a bit more.

Matthew (08:12):
Yeah. Or or and also, it feels very much looking at
these even on paper. They looklike I'm meant to be seeing them
through the screen with a fog ofwar on in some, you know,
desktop version. Which, yeah.

Dave (08:27):
Which they probably Which

Matthew (08:28):
may be Yeah. Probably what we want to do with them.
And it's a way a lot of peopleplay now. So maybe we can't
complain at that. But, yeah, Iagree with you.
Now what I don't entirely agreebecause some of the layouts some
of the more layout style maps,like of Hadley's Hope, I think
are even better. But they're notthey're not the battle maps as

(08:49):
it were. They're the, you know,this is where everything goes
together. I love the new versionof that. It's feels a lot closer
to the model than our old onedid model, and by which I mean
the, you know, the photographicmodel they used in the movie.

Dave (09:03):
Well well, one thing jarred for me there as well, it
looks so the the the theproportions of the the actual
colony itself compared to thelanding area and the that kind
of outside the wall stuff lookedlike they'd drawn a picture of a

(09:23):
person and made the head far toobig. So that that just that just
looked out of proportion to me.And again, this is again I mean,
I'm I'm as as with the theprevious comment about the about
the battle maps, I recognizethat there will be a lot of the
people who are gonna love thembecause that's exactly the kind
of thing that they want. Likeyou say, either for a VTT or for
putting them out on the tableand using their, what are going

(09:45):
to be, I guess, fabulous minis,that they're gonna get from Free
League or elsewhere, to reallybring their game to life. I
totally get that.
That's just not my preference.But on this one again, it just
felt I don't know. It just feltout of proportion and almost a
bit cartoony, if that's theright way of of describing it.

(10:06):
So it felt to me, and again,this is just my own preference,
it might well be that having hadthe history that we've had with
it and the all that time andeffort to put together the map
in the first place, that I'mjust feeling a bit, oh, well
they've changed the dimensionsof the map. That's not right.
But anyway, it just felt alittle bit odd in in that sense.

(10:30):
But Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. I shouldprobably just, you know, relax.

Matthew (10:36):
Get over yourself. Get back

Dave (10:38):
in my box. Yeah. Exactly.

Matthew (10:41):
I I am gonna look forward to opening that box of
of of fun, which which I had abig hand in it when it when it
finally comes.

Dave (10:50):
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

Matthew (10:51):
Treasure hat.

Dave (10:52):
And it does look like that the scenario is is very much the
same as it was before. I didn'tread it in details, but I had a
quick look through.

Matthew (11:00):
I I've had a scan through. Interestingly, it
starts in a different place.Yeah. And it ends in a different
place. But I've got to say, Ithink the ending is a I was
always I always felt our endingwas a bit of a fudge because we
we created a I'm gonna I'm gonnago spoiler free here.

(11:21):
We created a place and a andeven a shuttle that didn't exist
in the movies. And this thisputs puts all of that in a more
logical place and, you know,slightly turns the journey
through the

Dave (11:35):
the Yeah.

Matthew (11:36):
Through the colony around a bit, which I think is
fine in the long run. That wasall that always niggled me a bit
in in our version, and that'sfine. It obviously niggled
Thomas too.

Dave (11:48):
Yeah. Which which, again, it it didn't niggle me because I
know it didn't

Matthew (11:53):
niggle you because I tried to persuade you to change
it, you

Dave (11:55):
wouldn't because I guess if they if they're relying on
rivers of pain for their sourcematerial, I guess then there
isn't a shuttle there. If youput rivers rivers of pain to one
side, which is probably not abad thing to do considering how

Matthew (12:12):
Generally, generally, yes. Don't

Dave (12:14):
ignore rivers of pain. Then there's absolutely no
reason why there shouldn't be ashuttle there. But anyway

Matthew (12:19):
Yeah, I think you and I have a disagreement on that, but

Dave (12:24):
never mind. It's fine, it's fine. But I mean,
initially, there was I had thisfabulous scene, and I can
totally get why why they they itwas taken out. But in the
original story, Hope's LastDance, when we did it for UK
Games Expo back

Matthew (12:43):
in 2013,

Dave (12:45):
there there was a a secret tunnel that they that players
could find inside Yeah. Hadley'sHope. And you'd follow that
tunnel to a secret chamber wherethere's a shuttle to escape.

Matthew (12:55):
Yes.

Dave (12:56):
Now that was a bit of a stretch. It's a bit fantastical,
you know, so I totally get whythat was taken out. But I had
this fabulous, fabulous scene inthat. So as the players are
traveling down that tunnel, it'sa very long, long tunnel, very
dark, but the lights react tomovement. So they turn on when

(13:16):
you're when there's movement,they turn off when there isn't.
So you get the players runningbasically in this pocket of
light down the thing, and then

Matthew (13:23):
And then another pocket of light.

Dave (13:24):
And then there's another pocket of light they see right
at the fire and following them,which is the aliens chasing
after them. And I thought that'sjust such a beautiful cinematic
moment, which at the

Matthew (13:32):
It is. It is.

Dave (13:33):
At the table would would create a real sense of tension
and excitement. But, no, I canunderstand why that bit was
changed, but I was disappointedto lose that lose that cinematic
playing moment from the game.But yeah. I mean, it's, yeah,
it's turned out really well.But, anyway, you know, it looks

(13:53):
really good.
Some of the new artwork is issuperb. They've they've done a
lot of new artwork forparticularly the stuff that is
derived from Alien Romulus. Andit yeah. It looks it looks
really good. I was slightly I Ido now want to get my hands on
the PDF of the core book.

(14:14):
I didn't back that. But

Matthew (14:16):
Ah, you're like me. I thought you might have got back
the core book as well. But

Dave (14:19):
Yeah. I thought I had, but I obviously hadn't. So I might I
might add that, potentially.But, I mean, largely, from a
very, very narcissistic point ofview of I'd I'd just quite like
to see the bits that I've doneactually in

Matthew (14:33):
In the new format.

Dave (14:35):
In the new format. Yeah. So, I mean, interestingly, some
of our patrons have already donesome had a session where they
went through the life path Yeah.Which I wrote.

Matthew (14:47):
We can put a link to that in the show

Dave (14:48):
notes. Yes. Absolutely. Which is on Douglas' channel, I
think. So I I watched some ofit, but didn't get the chance to
watch all of it.
But it sounds like they had areal blast in going through the
life path, so I'm really pleasedthat that seems to be
entertaining people as well ascreating interesting characters.

Matthew (15:07):
I think I think I will get the new core book, but only
when it's out in print. I didn'tfeel the need to pack it.

Dave (15:15):
Yeah. I might just get it when it hits Yeah.

Matthew (15:17):
You know, it's not like I'm playing a massive amount of
Alien and I have got thewherewithal to play Alien if I
feel the need. Yeah. But when itcomes out in print. Yeah. And I
can get it on my Free Leaguestaff discount as well.

Dave (15:33):
Well, there there there is that too.

Matthew (15:35):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'd say really soft discount. Effect
podcast may get a review copy.

Dave (15:41):
That's true.

Matthew (15:42):
Let's not rush to buy it.

Dave (15:46):
No. Cool.

Matthew (15:47):
Anyway. Yeah. So let's move on. So that's all very
happy news generally. It seems aweek can't go by without some
kerfuffle happening in thegaming industry.
And this one happened withGoodman Games and their
Kickstarter for a re release ofI remember I don't do do you

(16:11):
remember this adventure strokecampaign, city based adventure
campaign? I remember seeing itwhen I first started playing D
and D.

Dave (16:20):
I I remember City State as a Judges Guild thing back in the
day, but I never played that.

Matthew (16:26):
Yeah. There it was it was always so I don't know. When
we both lived well, when I livedin Hartford and you lived in
Hatfield, there was a littlesort of hobby shop in Hartford,
which is where you went to getyour gaming stuff. It did all
sorts of crafts and stuff, butit had, yeah, molds for making
the Pony on it figures and hadcorners by the window of role

(16:49):
playing games. And in there waswhat was then an astronomically
expensive out of reach for me,you know, 10 or £12, I'm sure.

Dave (17:00):
Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew (17:01):
Box for City State of the Invincible Overlord. And I
vaguely remember one of ourschool friends having it, and it
having the most amazing map. Themost amazing Yeah. Detailed
cityscape. And I'm just beingkind of jealous and kind of

(17:23):
wanting it, but at the sametime, actually spending money on
that.
And I feel that nostalgia iswhat must be driving this. Now
when I was working in the gameshop, Goodman Games would often
produce kind of deluxe expandedversions of classic of classics
like City State of theInvincible Overlord. Great big

(17:46):
massive volumes where they'd putyou know, you've got a reprint
version and or a facsimileversion, and you've also got a
modernized version as well. Ofcourse, they do it for fifth
edition rules as opposed tofirst edition. Although, I think
you get the original, you know,the original because you get the
facsimile, you've got firstedition stuff there as well.

(18:06):
And, of course, they do it forDungeon Call Classics as well,
which is their own game.

Dave (18:09):
Yeah.

Matthew (18:10):
And these were you know, these used to they're
expensive. They sold $70.80quid, I think, these big, thick
hardback volumes. And I thinkthe sale of those is driven by
the sort of nostalgia for that,you know, yearning for that game
that I was when I was 12 or 13.Yeah. And finally now, I could
afford it.

(18:31):
But I'm so far beyond that.Anyway, anyway, Judges Guild is
the problem here because JudgesGuild, I think, is owned by the
son of the original founder, andhe's a bit of a fascist and has
said some terrible stuff aboutpeople. And and, in particular,
Jewish people and

Dave (18:52):
Holocaust denial and things like that.

Matthew (18:54):
Yeah. And stuff like that. So people were worried
that, you know, and as far asI'm aware, it still owns the
rights to this game. So GoodmanGames are licensing the rights.
So are people backing this goinginto, you know, is is money
being paid to this horrible man?
And Goodman Games have, youknow, hot news have kind of

(19:19):
released another so first ofall, they'd said something along
the lines of, yeah, we've allhad difficulties with this ban
in the past, but this is a greatscenario, so we want to reprint
it. And they've got a lot ofkickback for that.

Dave (19:32):
Well, I think wasn't wasn't there a wasn't there a
kickstarter in 2020 when this

Matthew (19:37):
There was. Yes.

Dave (19:37):
When this all kicked off in the first place. And that
Kickstarter I don't know a greatdeal about it, but just from
what I've read, it it it seemsthat that Kickstarter certainly
didn't fulfill, and all thepeople who backed it just lost
lost their money.

Matthew (19:53):
I think $80,000 it earned.

Dave (19:54):
And I think this is this is the kind of a key point in in
Gooden Games' current position,which is that by by by reviving
the the game, they can repair oror or compensate those people

(20:16):
through making judges guilddonate their proceeds from it to
paying those people back. Yeah.Which, I mean, on the one hand,
that's that that that seems thatseems fine as a as a as a
aspiration. On the other hand,people go into Kickstarters

(20:40):
knowing full well that sometimesthings are gonna go wrong and
you're not gonna get your moneyor you're not gonna get your
product, you'll lose your money.So it feels almost a bit like,
is this just the window dressingthat is allowing them to justify
to themselves going back to arelationship with Judges Guild

(21:01):
that still got Bob Bledsaw thesecond Mhmm.
In charge I think

Matthew (21:07):
you might be. Or Yeah.

Dave (21:12):
Yeah. And then kind of justifying, well, it's okay to
to renew this relationshipbecause they're not gonna make
any money out of it because it'sgonna go to paying off paying
back those people who lost theirmoney on the first Kickstarter.
Now, they'd have to make a lotof money to pay everyone else
off. Pay

Matthew (21:27):
Everything they lost. Yeah.

Dave (21:29):
And how do you how do you then, you know, do you do it
alphabetically? Or do you justis it just random? I mean,
because some people do

Matthew (21:37):
it like in the pound, I guess.

Dave (21:39):
Yeah. But anyway, so so there is cents

Matthew (21:43):
of the dollar, I should say.

Dave (21:44):
So there is that in the background, which, as I said, as
aspiration in itself to try andmake good the the screw ups of
the past, that's that that'sfine. But in this situation,
does that is that enough tojustify, you know, working with
a person who, as far as I know,hasn't shown any, oh shit, I

(22:06):
shouldn't have said that. Sorry.I don't really believe that. I
was in a bad mood at the timeand all the rest of it.
Yeah. Tried to roll back fromhis comments, which again, I
haven't seen them myself. I'mjust replaying what reports have
have said about it. But noreason to doubt those reports,
you know, the veracity of thosereports. Because you get with

(22:26):
some others where people havesaid something stupid, and then
at least have had the grace toapologise and roll back from it,
even if deep down they stillbelieve those things.
But if they if they at least dokind of the right thing and say,
hands up, makeup, but that waswrong. I apologise

(22:46):
unconditionally. At least thenyou could think, okay, well,
let's give people a secondchance. But if in this case,
this guy still believes all ofthese things he said and hasn't
rolled back from any of it,then, you know, if he's gonna
stick to his guns in that sense,then he has to suffer the
consequences for doing so.

(23:07):
Yeah.

Matthew (23:08):
Yeah. Anyway, so that's that's boring. Let's again talk
about something more happy.

Dave (23:13):
Let's talk

Matthew (23:14):
about UK Games Expo.

Dave (23:15):
What's what's the what's the final position there then?
Are the is it that Gooden Gamesare still planning to go ahead
with it now?

Matthew (23:21):
I think they're going to go ahead with it.

Dave (23:22):
I think they are.

Matthew (23:23):
Yeah. They're looking to so, you know, to pay
everybody back that 80,000$85,000 or whatever, they're
gonna have to make somethinglike, you know, $850,000
themselves Right. For thelicensing revenue to be worth
85,000, I guess. I guess

Dave (23:43):
10% then.

Matthew (23:44):
The the matter here is that, you know, the the Judges
Guild, as it were, are getting10% of whatever they make. And I
don't know whether they're gonnado that.

Dave (23:55):
Yeah. So there's there's there's something here that I've
just seen. It says that thefunds that would go to Judges
Guild will be placed in anescrow account managed by
Goodman Games, and those fundswill then be used to reimburse
the backers of the previousunfulfilled Judges' Guild
Kickstarter. Yeah, I mean, maybemaybe that's maybe, you know,

(24:19):
guess it's up to each individualto decide whether that's a good
enough reason for renewing theirrelationship with this fellow or
not.

Matthew (24:29):
Yes. It's it's it's not a thing I would have bought
anyway. You know me. I'm not amassive five e player or indeed.
No.
That sort of fantasy.

Dave (24:37):
No. It's not something that I would have I was I would
I would back anyway.

Matthew (24:41):
And neither would I want to plunk the city state of
the Invincible Overlord in themiddle of our Forbidden Lands
campaign. So that's nothingthere. And we will have our own
city state of our own InvincibleOverlord, I'm sure, in in a
future Forbidden Landssupplement.

Dave (24:58):
Mhmm.

Matthew (24:59):
And convince there's gonna have to be a city version
of that in in some futureexpansion. Let's talk about UK
Games Expo, though.

Dave (25:07):
Oh, yeah.

Matthew (25:09):
So, we said last time we're going to UK Games Expo.
You were a little bit vague onthe time and place of your
seminar.

Dave (25:17):
Yeah. And it's lucky I was

Matthew (25:18):
that it was worth it. So that people can fill it in
their diaries and and plan theirwhole weekend around when you're
talking. When is your seminar,Dave?

Dave (25:26):
So it was quite good. Was vague last time because Millie
asked me to move You

Matthew (25:30):
were wrong.

Dave (25:31):
Well, no. Millie asked me to move it. Only slightly. So
it's on Saturday. It's at 02:30for an hour in not sure which
one, but one of the conferencerooms that they have just
outside the the halls where wealways hold all these seminars.
But yeah, so I'll be theretalking about role playing game

(25:52):
design, how to make your playershappy. I'm not sure as a
subtitle that that really works,but we'll see how it goes. But
again, it's very much theopportunity just for everyone to
get together and have a chat.And I mean, I always love doing
it. It's great fun.
We always get a great crowd. Andyeah, I hope to see hope to see

(26:13):
lots of people there again forthat. Yeah. So Saturday, '2 '30
in one of those seminar rooms.Don't know which one.

Matthew (26:19):
Have you updated your bio, Dave? You know, to to to
because, you know, when youfirst started this, you were a
writer just starting out. Nowyou've got a whole bunch of
exciting things under your belt.

Dave (26:31):
I I should do that, shouldn't I? No. I probably
haven't.

Matthew (26:33):
You should. Yeah. You should, you see. Yeah.

Dave (26:36):
Oh, good. Yep. Good good prompt. Thank you.

Matthew (26:39):
I ought to be your bloody marketing manager and
making money off your, you know,10% of everything you earn.

Dave (26:44):
You are making money off my efforts because, you know,
all my great writing and gamedesign, you know.

Matthew (26:49):
Alright. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Remind me when the money
starts coming in.
No. We've it has come in, butit's it's also going out to the
ferocious rate at the moment.Yeah. We've

Dave (27:00):
Now now now my status on the on the bank account is up to
you. I I see all yourtransactions. So, you know,
Hilton Hotels and, you know,expensive restaurants. I'm not
quite sure how that should be.

Matthew (27:12):
Somebody's gotta go to Barbados. No. But our latest big
transaction is we've got a we'vegot a new banner for our own
stand at UK Games Expo. It's gotone of our favorite pictures.

Dave (27:29):
It's gonna look very good.

Matthew (27:30):
It's gonna look gorgeous. So I've just ordered
that. And we're order some moredice trays. I just realized that
we talked about this a couple ofweeks ago, I haven't actually
put the order in. And that'lltake a couple of weeks to turn
around.
So that needs to happen. PDQ.What else? So, do we need some
more t shirts? I I think weprobably do or something.
Now, have a think about that.Not right now. And we won't

(27:51):
think about it while we'retalking to our listeners either.

Dave (27:53):
That's Yeah. Yeah. Podcasts and stock discussions.
That's that's that's gold, thatis. Know?
Know you know why you listen tous listeners because we talk
about stock. Oh, yeah.

Matthew (28:05):
Oh, tell you what though. Let me just throw this
out.

Dave (28:09):
Go on.

Matthew (28:10):
If you, dear listener, would like to buy a Tales of the
Old West t shirt, tell us.Because we could actually I
could actually, you know, notjust get a couple for you and
me, but get a bunch that wecould sell on the It's

Dave (28:28):
not a bad idea.

Matthew (28:28):
If people were interested. I have no idea what
the design's gonna be yet, soyou take it on red. Just would
you be interested, dearlistener, if you're coming to UK
Games Expo in picking up a Talesof the Old West t shirt of your
very own.

Dave (28:44):
Good stuff.

Matthew (28:44):
And if there's enough demand, maybe we'll get some
extra ones.

Dave (28:47):
Cool. Yeah. That sounds like a good idea.

Matthew (28:51):
Nice. Right. Old West news. It's a nice segue from
Tales the Old West t shirts intoYeah.

Dave (28:59):
Oh, yeah. Well, the the big news this week is The US
palette has finally got out thedoor. Went out it went out the
door yesterday, a little bitlater than we had anticipated
for various reasons, which we,you know, we shan't bore you
with. But, yeah, finally, thethe packet is gone out. It's
gonna take five to ten days toget to the the The US

(29:23):
distribution center.
And then once it hits The USdistribution center and we've
paid the tariffs Mhmm. We wesaid before we

Matthew (29:33):
recall The tariffs might might go down

Dave (29:35):
while it's cutting

Matthew (29:36):
the Atlantic, though.

Dave (29:36):
But but I I think at the moment, if they unless yeah.
Exactly. Unless things gostupid, I think we are pretty
comfortable that we can absorbthe tariffs and it's not going
to be too big an issue for us.So that is great. Once it hits
The US distribution center, it'sgoing to take up to two weeks to
be shipped internally in The US,depending on where you are in

(29:58):
The US.
So some people might get it muchmore quickly than that. But on
that basis all our US backersshould get their products by the
end of the month, which is ourtarget delivery date anyway,
which is great. And if not, itmight squeak into the June, but
certainly not by much. So that'sthat's really good news. Fingers

(30:21):
crossed that everything goesfine.
And, yeah, give it another fewweeks and everybody will have
their stuff.

Matthew (30:28):
Yeah. And I think I think we can say if it does
squeak into the middle into theJune for you as a as an order,
it's your fault for living insome out of the way place. If
lived in a big metropolis, I'msure it would be there much

Dave (30:46):
Let's not let's not start blaming our backers before
they've even had their rewards.But, yeah, I mean, the The US
shipment was always going totake a bit longer because of the
way we managed it. We've talkedabout it before.

Matthew (30:59):
And it has kept prices down?

Dave (31:01):
Yeah. Has kept prices down. So interestingly, we had a
a comment yesterday after theupdate from a US backer who had
noticed who'd gone back to checktheir pledge, had noticed that
their pledge on pledge managerwas now showing that they owed
30p. Now I looked into it, andactually, I think what has
happened is the because we'vewe've changed

Matthew (31:25):
Updated the prices.

Dave (31:26):
We've changed the pricing because obviously the pricing on
the pallet was cheaper than thedirect delivery, and anyone
coming now for US Fulfillmentwill have to be direct delivery.
So I think the prices inside thePledge Management System have
basically updated all thenumbers across the board.

Matthew (31:40):
Yeah.

Dave (31:41):
So if you're a US backer who paid your delivery your your
delivery charges on time and bythe deadline, don't worry if you
go in and see that there'sapparently money owed because it
isn't. It's just the system, Ithink, that is that is

Matthew (31:58):
And it may be much more than 30 p you see that you owe
because I think that was arelatively small package. So it
was roughly Yeah. That packageis

Dave (32:06):
one book. So that is that is that is the cheapest. So if
you just get in the one book,you know, doing it via the
pallet is cheaper, but not alot. This as soon as you get a
second book or any more weighton it, that price goes up
through the roof. So the directdelivery prices are, you know,
as a lot of our poor backers inthe rest of the world have

Matthew (32:29):
seen Have discovered, yes.

Dave (32:30):
Can be a

Matthew (32:31):
bit In Australia and Canada.

Dave (32:32):
Eye watering. So we are really sorry for that. In for
future for future campaigns, wewill look more deeply into the
possibility of trying to do asimilar principle that we've
done with The US with otherplaces. But it does depend upon
the volume of orders that weget. So we needed to have like a

(32:55):
what's the right word I'mlooking for?

Matthew (32:57):
Yeah, economy of scale.

Dave (32:59):
There is an economy of scale. Also, need to have a kind
of a minimum

Matthew (33:03):
A pallet load.

Dave (33:03):
A minimum center of gravity.

Matthew (33:06):
Yeah.

Dave (33:06):
A minimum amount.

Matthew (33:07):
Minimum center of gravity. Yeah.

Dave (33:09):
That's right. I'm

Matthew (33:09):
sure that's not the word you're looking for.

Dave (33:10):
It's not. It's But, yeah. Anyway.

Matthew (33:13):
There's got to be enough enough order there to be
able to order it in a bulk, youknow, and In a and pass on to a
local distributor. All of that.Economies of scale works better
for me on that one. So get allyour Canadian and Australian
friends to do it as well. We'vealready had an approach from one
of our backers who said thatthey could, cause they run a
shop, they could maybe, youknow, be the distribution center

(33:35):
in Australia.
So next time we're looking

Dave (33:37):
for that. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah.
So that's so that's that's thethat's the reason why it's it's
a bit slower for The US backers,but you will be paying less
money as a result. Had Cool.There was something else
something just came to mind.

Matthew (33:51):
Oh, and we're closing the Kickstarter. Not
Kickstarter, the pledge manager.

Dave (33:55):
Yes. So we'll we've given it one more week, but we'll
close it on Friday May. So ifyou are one of those stragglers,
there's only a handful left, butget in before that and that'll
make life a lot easier foreveryone.

Matthew (34:10):
Yeah. 10% of our original backers haven't
completed, but a lot of thosewere, you know, just digital
guys. You've got your digitalcontent already. No need for you
to complete the backers.

Dave (34:21):
Yeah. Exactly.

Matthew (34:22):
Unless you wanted to add physical stuff to it. We've
got about, I think, 26, 20 fiveindividuals who actually have
ordered physical stuff andhaven't completed their pledge
packages yet. You've got a weekto do it. If you don't do it
that week, obviously, you know,we will still try and on audio

(34:42):
on her, but you'll be comingdirectly to us, paying us
somehow with a credit card orsomething, the postage, and then
we'll post it to you direct. Andit will be a lot more difficult,
and I'm sure more expensivebecause Yeah.
Yeah. Prices just seem to begoing up, don't they?

Dave (34:57):
Yes. That is that is true.

Matthew (35:00):
Okay. Oh, yeah. The other

Dave (35:02):
thing I was going to say was No.

Matthew (35:04):
That wasn't the other thing you were gonna say. Sorry.
I thought I was reminding youthere.

Dave (35:07):
No. Was we we'd managed to put a little bit of stock into a
couple of retail stores onceonce our UK and European backers
were getting their theirproducts. And the the first
place was the game shop inAldershot where you used to
work. Mhmm. And it was lovely tosee that it's been selling.

(35:28):
So I don't I don't know how manyhow many how many copies they
took.

Matthew (35:32):
Alright. That's a bit disingenuous of my Facebook
post. Is it? I said, down totheir last copy. They only took
well, they took three, but oneof them was for the manager of
the

Dave (35:39):
show. Okay.

Matthew (35:41):
So they sold the

Dave (35:42):
other one.
They sold one. Alright.
Well, it's better than none. Sothank you to whoever bought the
copy of Tales of the Old Westfrom the the the game shop in
Old Shot. But, yeah, it did makeme think, oh, wow. We must have
given them six or eight. That'sgreat.
Sold very good. Okay.

Matthew (35:58):
Now, we've given we have given eight to Athena Games
in Norwich. Yep. And I thinkthey've sold more than one copy
there. Excellent.

Dave (36:07):
That's cool.

Matthew (36:07):
I might drop them a line and see see how they're
doing. And actually, while we'retalking about retail as well,
it's worth mentioning that onthat palette going to America,
there's 10 of everything goingto Paladins Game Palace in
Bakersfield, California. Yep. Sothere's a retail, a local retail
there. If you want to mail orderfrom there, it will probably be

(36:32):
a lot cheaper than mail orderingfrom us.
We are going to set up a webstore on our on website so
people can order directly fromus. But you will also be able to
order from our distributors.We're just about to sign a deal
with them where they will becomeour distribution partners into
retail as well. Yeah. So theythey distribute for a bunch of

(36:57):
British and European retailstores.
And your local store may well beable to order it from them. And,
so if you want to buy it locally

Dave (37:09):
we have had a couple of retailers come and chat to us
when we were at Dragonmeat, themini Dragonmeat a couple of
weeks ago. So that was great. Sothere's definitely a little bit
of interest out there to take afew copies from from a few
retailers. So come and get it,guys. Come and get it.

Matthew (37:27):
We may, I mean, have to do a reprint at some point.

Dave (37:29):
That would be very cool, wouldn't it? It'd be it'd be
very interesting to see how whathow many we sell at UK Games
Expo, and we need to have achomp conversation about how
much to take.

Matthew (37:39):
What stock to take. Yeah.

Dave (37:40):
Yeah. Which we do offline. But Yeah. But Well,

Matthew (37:44):
particularly now that we're we're adding t shirts.

Dave (37:47):
Well, exactly. But it'll be really interesting to see how
how well we do at UK Games Expo.

Matthew (37:53):
Cool. Shall we shall we talk to Gabe now?

Dave (37:58):
Let's do that. So War Stories, their new Kickstarter
is still running for ThePacific, and, yeah, we chatted
to Gabe yesterday.

Matthew (38:06):
Well, in the heman with us tonight, we we've got an old
friend and collaborator, atleast a collaborator with with
Dave. Oh, yeah. And that's GabeGarcia. Gabe, welcome back to
the show.

Gabe Garcia (38:19):
Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me, guys.
Good to be back. It's good tosee you guys are doing well, and
and I'm looking forward tochatting about all RPG stuff.

Matthew (38:30):
Excellent. Well, all of RPGs is quite a large topic.
We've only got about half anhour.

We'll narrow it down a little bit. Well, you
know, Dave and I are thinkingabout

Matthew (38:41):
We can try. Should we be talking about War Stories,
The Pacific?

That's right.

Matthew (38:49):
So you've got a Kickstarter running. We're a bit
late to this show. So whenyou're listening to this, the
Kickstarter will have, dearlistener, about two days to go.
So follow the link in the shownotes as soon as you can, or it
or maybe it's gone. In whichcase, do whatever the late

(39:10):
pledge thing is as soon as youYeah.

That makes sense.

Matthew (39:14):
But, Gaye, this is, I feel Well, we've always known
that this was going to be thefirst big expansion of War
Stories, and that is moving thetheater over to the Pacific. Was
there an early stage in theplanning before you published
the first War Stories where youwere going, which is it going to

(39:37):
be? Is it going to be Europe oris it going to be The Pacific
and Europe won out? Or was thereever a time when actually, you
know, we're going to start thisin The Pacific?

No, we had the initial desire to start off in
Europe only because the firstinspiration for putting
together, war stories as a WorldWar two RPG set in a realistic
setting. The inspiration hadbeen banned of brothers
initially, So the fact that itwas not just band of brothers

(40:10):
and it was a European setting,but it was additionally set
specifically during the Normandybeach landings, and it was set
at a very, very precise time.That was kind of the
inspiration. However, with theunderstanding that if the
product was well received, thenwe would definitely expand it to
not only different locations inthe war, but even perhaps

(40:33):
perhaps release publicationsthat had information about the
early years or perhaps the midyears or something along those
lines. So Yeah, I was alwaysEurope and then the natural
progression would be Pacific.
And then there's even, you know,more ideas beyond the Pacific,
into other theaters and otherand other topics.

Matthew (40:54):
Cool. You talk a bit about times. Obviously, we know,
where the core Wall Stories andDave's excellent One Day of It
with Destiny campaign is settime wise. Actually, I'm going
to be really honest here. I knowless about the Pacific Theatre.

(41:15):
So which time period have youchosen and what's happening
then? And why did you choosethat period?

Sure, sure, sure. We kind of chose mid war, sort
of 1943. The landings atGuadalcanal feature are featured
strongly in the campaign that'spresent in the expansion book.
And that that campaign kind ofzeros in on Guadalcanal in the
same way that the one hundredand first featured were featured

(41:44):
in the Normandy campaign thatDave was able to put together
for war stories in thebeginning, so it's an expansion
and it's it gives you a broadunderstanding and resources to
play in The Pacific in general.Sort of the same way that the
core book has a generalunderstanding of how to prepare
scenarios set in Western Europe.

(42:07):
Well, this does the same for ThePacific, but book will have a
built in campaign forGuadalcanal, and that's going to
be featuring the Marine Raiders,much in the same way that, the
one hundred and first werefeatured for the army, in the
core book and in the in thefirst campaign book.

Dave (42:27):
Cool. That's really exciting. I mean, I do have to
say when back in the early dayswhen we were just finishing War
Story's first time round game,and and there was talk of
Pacific, I bought this enormous,really thick history book on the
Pacific and, and read it, andthen I never got asked to help.
But that's fine.

That's you had the second part. You had Market
Garden to worry about.

Dave (42:53):
I did. I'm not And then there's that

thing called the Old West. I don't know. You got
sidetracked.

Dave (42:58):
I'm not complaining. But it was going to be getting Yeah.
I mean, it forced me to to readstuff about history that I knew
a bit about but didn't know verymuch, which is great, and I and
I and I love all that. But,yeah, so you talk about
Guadalcanal. And so the thecampaign you've got in the book
is going to be what similar instructure to Rendezvous with
Destiny, but based inGuadalcanal.

(43:20):
So you've got, what, six orseven scenarios that fit into a
wider story.

Correct. Correct.

Dave (43:27):
Is the plan then to move a bit like we've done? You know,
we'll come to Market Garden in aminute, but a bit like we've
done with Market Garden. Is theplan then to go to, I don't
know, Pelelo or Okinawa or IwoJima and have campaigns set
further down the line of thePacific war timeline?

It can definitely lend itself to that,
particularly since the MarineRaiders were present in a
variety of islands that werethat were the subjects of many,
amphibious invasions. And so itlends itself to that
possibility. Absolutely And wecould go all the way to you know
some of the big big finalbattles that really preclude the

(44:09):
dropping of the bomb. But I'mnot sure if it'll move in that
direction. It may be that we'reyou know, it's depending on how
it's received and whether the,audience prefers perhaps a
little more focused by firelockgames on yet a third theater,
which might be North Africa orit might be Eastern Europe.

(44:29):
Those are two that that havebeen kind of hollered about on
on the Reddits and on the forumsand on the different groups that
would be great to have a tankcampaign in North Africa. Or you
know, sniper campaign in inEastern Europe somewhere, you
know any of those would wouldfeature well and so we have to

(44:51):
decide whether we're going tomaintain our focus or we're
going to spread out a littlebit. And I think that the
audience is sort of thereception that that that is that
is, the feedback that isprovided for us may determine
that in the end, but it'scertainly possible.

Dave (45:06):
Mhmm. No. That that sounds really cool. And I say when the
the history of of The Pacific isI mean, there's so much of it.
Actually, I mean, you know, theyokay.
There's a lot on the WesternFront as well, but there's
there's there's such, you know,the Pacific. I mean, the word
itself covers Yeah. An area ofof landscape that is Sure.

(45:27):
Thousands upon thousands ofmiles by

thousands. China, Burma, all of that. Yeah.

Dave (45:33):
So in terms of, what the Pacific book gives us, other
than the campaign and the sortof the setting stuff, so where
where have you gone in in theidea of new rules or or
additional equipment and thatkind of stuff? Are

we Sure. Sure. Yeah. Can I can share some of
those things? Well, first ofall, we we definitely have, the
Japanese weaponry.
All of the firearms, you know,all of the most commonly used,
pistols, machine guns, heavymachine guns, light machine
guns. We have a few vehicles aswell. We had to include

(46:09):
obviously some amphibiousvehicles. So some of the gear is
relatively obvious in terms ofwhat you have to add and what
you have to provide the GM andthe players with the tools to
play. We further more added tothe scope of, specializations as
well.
The skills remain the same.There's the same 12 course

(46:31):
course skills, but we added agood amount of specializations
to each skill. I believe. Ithink it was something either
one or two. I think it was twospecializations per skill, so
they tend to be, fleshing out,you know, different ways of

(46:52):
making your character and maybeput them in in along the lines
of what we, did with the corebook, but with a with a skew
toward the Pacific and some ofthe skills that perhaps marines
may be given versus regulararmy.
We went ahead and actually gavesort of bonus specializations

(47:12):
for Marines and Rangers and, andkind of started to flesh out
what we did with the. With theone hundred and first airborne,
where we kind of singled themout a little differently. We did
the same thing for the Marines.So there's a bit of that. We had
some new archetypes for thosewho play the game and just use
archetypes and don't really dealwith fleshing out the character

(47:36):
in detail.
And then and then there'sobviously a background on the
history with a timeline, some,extra adventures or ideas for,
missions that are present there,some tables that show, you know,
the different terrain that youmay encounter, weather charts,
that sort of thing, kind ofreally give the GM as many tools

(47:59):
as we can, so they can devisetheir own adventures that aren't
in Guadalcanal and that maybetake place in The Philippines or
in Burma or or in China oranywhere else.

Dave (48:09):
Yeah. There are two things there that kind of struck me.
One, I mean, the terrain. Imean, because obviously the
terrain in some of the Japaneseislands was so different to the
terrain that the troops on theWestern Front would have would
have would have met. Yeah.
And so so calling that out anddoing stuff to, to to to make
that feel unique in the Pacificcampaign is is a really good

(48:33):
idea. The other thing thatstruck me, obviously, you know,
a lot of the Pacific stuff is isamphibious, as you say. Have you
added rules to help the GM runan amphibious battle?

That's a great question, and and we have not
made any specific nod toward theamphibious side of the battle.
So, for example, if you have inGuadalcanal, you have the
famous, naval battle that takesplace and preeminently so in the
beginning to the middle of theof the campaign. That's in the

(49:06):
background. I think that thefocus is more on the squads and
more of the individualcombatants. The fact that there
is obviously a major navalcomponent to World War two is
something to me that begs itsown air and sea add on, an air
and sea book that allows you toeither play on board a submarine

(49:30):
or on board you know, adestroyer or maybe even
piloting, you know aircraft thatcomes off of aircraft carriers
and you have your own cadre offighter pilots.
Maybe that's a cool way tohandle. You know those rules,
and then that's where I wouldincorporate any kind of naval or
aerial, mass battle like we didwith the core books land

(49:53):
battles.

Dave (49:54):
Yeah. So I guess I was I was thinking is there is there
advice and guidance to help theGM run that scenario when the
player characters are hittingthe beaches?

When they're hitting the beaches, this is
definitely going to be along thesame lines as the land battle.
Yeah And if you incorporate ifyou wanted to, obviously there
is the ability to incorporateany of the naval bombardments
that might have taken place ontothe onto the beaches itself. In
the same way that the landbattles were handled. There

(50:28):
because of the fact that the wayGuadalcanal historically
occurred, and we're trying tostay as close to history as
possible. For the most part, theAmericans landed on the beaches
of both Tulagi and, Guadalcanalitself relatively unopposed.
Yeah Yeah, so there wasn'treally a need to have a staged

(50:52):
mass battle at that point of thecampaign. Although, of course,
there are plenty of mass battleopportunities throughout the
rest of the campaign after thelanding.

Dave (51:01):
Mhmm. Because I was just wondering whether those rules
could then be taken by somebodywho wanted to recreate, D Day
from the point of view of thetroops who hit the beaches.

Oh, true. True. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave (51:14):
No. That's cool. That's

cool. Definitely.

Matthew (51:20):
Now one of the other additions to this game, and I
noticed it was mentioned withDave. We will get on to Market
Garden eventually, but let'sstay in the Pacific for a

Dave (51:32):
Save the best for last, ain't it? I mean, Gabe is
brilliant. I mean, the the onething I would just like to say,
I with War Stories, I Igenuinely had one of the best
collaboration experiencesworking with you, Gabe. You
know? Well, thanks.
Much better than working withMatthew on Tales

Matthew (51:52):
of Labor. Hang on. I'm still in the room. That

is greatly appreciated, Dave. And I I
reciprocate that compliment, ofcourse. That being said, I don't
I haven't worked with too manyother people anyway, but still,
David, still terrific.

Dave (52:06):
It's a lowball. Thanks, Pat.

Matthew (52:10):
Yeah. Working with you is definitely better than not
working with anybody, Dave. Ican I can entirely agree with
with the table now? But no. Soone of the differences, just get
back on topic.
I remember this being a demandwhen you were doing the pre this
is the first time you've done aKickstarter for War Stories,

(52:32):
isn't it? Yes. Time was lasttime, wasn't it? And I remember
the appeal order went very well,but there was a lot of chat at
the time in the comments and inthe in the Facebook groups and
things like that. It's like, oh,go on.
You gotta give us figures forthis minis. Right. And and I
remember thinking, who the hellneeds second World War minis?

(52:54):
Where can you not find secondWorld War minis? Sure.
But you've relented this time.Is there a reason why you went
for the minis in this kickstart?

I think that there's three reasons I can
think of off the top of my head.I think number one is there was
comments made like you said,where people kind of said, Well,
are you going to do minis andwhatnot? I think part of that
has to do with the connectionthat people make with firelock
games in general producing theminiatures they do for their
pirate themed miniatures games.And they do such a good job with

(53:29):
that. I think it was natural forfans of the company to say,
Well, are you going to do minisfor this now and be interested
in knowing what those minismight look like?
I think the second reason is,the artwork our of our artist
Ian is so, great, and I thinkthat it's so, evocative of the

(53:51):
sort of, action that you thatyou will have with your
characters in an RPG. That thatthe art itself inspired the idea
of putting that sort of, look toa miniature and be able to paint
it up. And I think that, my asmy understanding all of the
miniatures presently areinspired and based on that

(54:14):
artwork that the archetypes,that Ian had painted up for the
core book and then this newexpansion book as well. So I
think that that it just lentitself to that. And then and
then I'd have to say the thirdreason is, I think Firelog just,
they've invested in their own,you know, production of
miniatures so that they're madeall in house.

(54:35):
And so right since they're allmade in house, then you know
what the logic is, you make useof your investments and produce
something that appears to havean audience anyway. So I think
all those are the reasons. Youknow, people like miniatures and
people that may not be into theRPG might all of a sudden say,
Well, they have miniatures andI'm into miniatures and maybe

(54:56):
I'll try this RPG. So I thinkthat it pans out a little bit,
logically, and I think that'sthe route Firelocke took.

Matthew (55:04):
That's very interesting. It's immediately
prompted two questions. One foryou, Dave. Actually, I'm just
going to pass this one over toyou. So you went to Salute a
couple of months ago.

Dave (55:17):
Salute is

Matthew (55:18):
a big miniatures wargaming convention that we
have here in The UK. And we tookFree Leagues miniatures game.
That's what you were selling.But of course, we were also
selling things like Twilight2,000. Did you see potential for

(55:40):
more wargamers getting into roleplaying games if only there'd
been firelock games on the tableas well?

Dave (55:52):
I think if we'd had a if there'd been more minis for sale
on more or any, actually,really, minis for sale on the
stand, it would have drawnpeople in for sure.

Mhmm.

Dave (56:04):
I think if we go back to Salute next year as Free League
and we take Alien Evolved withthe minis that that comes with,
then I think Free League willhave a much better time at Salut
than we did this time because,again, it's a it's a, you know,
it's a it's a convention thatcomes from a very heavily war
war gaming background. And eventhough it is expanding into a

(56:25):
wider range of stuff and roleplaying games are a thing there,
there's still a very, very minorpart of it. So I think yeah. I
mean I mean, a game like WarStories, if it was on the table
with a load of minis in front ofit that are as as cool as they
look on the Kickstarter, justwhere I've seen the pictures,
That would definitely attractpeople in, I'm for sure.

Matthew (56:46):
Right. Now you shut up, Dave. I want to ask Gabe a
question now. I'm just realizingI should've we should've had
that chat after the interviewlike we do in our Yeah. In that
normal format for them.

Dave (56:56):
It's it's yeah. It's no good you interviewing me while
people Dave sat on the linegoing, right. Well, it's I I I'm
I'm bit overworked. I wanna goand do something more
interesting. Well, the best

part of that last the best part about that last
question is Dave took so long toanswer. I thought for a second
it was my turn to answer. I waslike

Dave (57:15):
I was

Matthew (57:15):
just, like,

Dave (57:16):
forming forming my thoughts, Gabe. You know what
it's like. It takes me while toget up to speed.

Matthew (57:20):
So, Gabe, hopefully you can answer this one more
speedily then. You talked aboutin house mini production? Yeah.

Dave (57:26):
No thinking time, Gabe.

Matthew (57:27):
No thinking time. Firelock because you've been
doing the Pirates. And I firstheard of you years ago when a
friend of mine was raving aboutthe miniatures game. Can't think
of what it's called now.

Bloody.

Matthew (57:44):
Yeah. So you make those minis in house, not diverging
too deeply into politics, butobviously tariffs have been a
big pain in the ass for lots ofAbsolutely. Do you make those
minis in the MainlandContinental United States Of
America as well?

If you count Miami as that, I mean, some people
don't, but

Dave (58:08):
yes, think officially it counts.

Officially it's in The States. South Florida, we
are in The United States. Soyes, the minis are done in
house. In fact, quite a lot ofthe production in general is
done in house. And so, we we'veobviously been very aware of the
tariff conditions and situationsand the economics of what.

(58:32):
Of what that's brought to thegaming industry, but in general,
the productions of the stuffthat we are able to do as I've
understood it. I mean, I'm notdirectly a firelock employee. I
write for them. But it's all inhouse. There have been some
minor tweaks where we had tomake adjustments.
Otherwise, for example, weinitially thought we were going

(58:54):
to be able to do a starter boxset. And the starter box set was
something that production wisewould not be the smart thing to
do at the moment in terms of thetariffs.

Matthew (59:04):
Yeah. Just the economics of that point to China
and then the tariffs point pointvery firmly away from China
again.

Right. Right. Right. Exactly.

Matthew (59:16):
But that is it, know, you should maybe make more of
this, I'm thinking. How well isthe Kickstarter doing at the
moment?

I think the Kickstarter is doing well, all
things considered. And thosethings, of course, being the
tariff and the economics, It'smy understanding and after
looking around a bit, obviouslyit's in our interest to see how
everybody else is doing ingeneral, but I think the gaming
industry has taken a bit of ahit with the economics and the
tariffs. I think people areshying away a little bit from,

(59:46):
kind of investing and puttingtheir money in a situation that
might be a bit, you know, fluidand not set. And so maybe some
people are waiting and seeing.But regardless, we've broken our
obviously our goal and in fact,we've more than doubled our goal
and we still have a week left asof this recording.

(01:00:07):
And we hope to continue addingto to to what we've been able to
produce, especially if we'reable to say that a lot of the
things that we're making are inhouse and that they'll they'll
they'll they'll be affected bythe tariff to whatever extent
shipping costs might beaffected. I'm not really
familiar with it. I know thatthere's a large contingent of

(01:00:28):
European, fans and potential,clients or buyers and whatnot
that that are concerned withshipping costs to Europe. And
I'm not quite sure where thatis, but but I think we're doing
okay, all things considered,particularly with the market the
way it is.

Matthew (01:00:47):
Well, in in our experience of of just this last
week, it does look like I wasexpecting shipping costs to go
down because there was lessdemand because of the tariffs.
Actually, it appears thatshipping costs have gone up. Not
unaffordably for us as a gamescompany, but

Dave (01:01:05):
I

Matthew (01:01:06):
think different the way I expected. But anyway But

Dave (01:01:09):
I don't I don't I don't think it doesn't seem to me that
that the kind of theuncertainty, you know, in in
what's going on with the USgovernment and tariffs and stuff
at the moment has directlyaffected those shipping costs.
No. The shipping costs are justpretty expensive anyway. Sure.

Gabe Garcia (01:01:25):
Sure.

Dave (01:01:25):
So so I think, hopefully, all that uncertainty won't
affect the actual cost ofshipping come the day. Correct.

Matthew (01:01:33):
Yeah. No. I was just hoping that it might go down
because there'll be shippingcompanies there.

Dave (01:01:37):
Well, I hope that as well. Yeah. That

Matthew (01:01:40):
isn't what happened. But anyway No. But, yeah, I
think it's it's a good thing,actually, that listeners might
want to be aware of,particularly if they're in the
Continental US, that it isAmerican made as well. So you're
not in danger of gettingtariffed on your minis if you go
to your minis. And it's aninteresting range of reward

(01:02:05):
levels you've done, where you'vegot book only reward levels, but
you've also obviously got comboreward levels with various sets
of minis.
I noticed that if I were goingto back, that there isn't the
thing that I'd want. But thereis a lovely a la carte one where

(01:02:25):
you put a pound in and then youadd whatever add ons you need.
Sure.

Mean, I tried to guide them in that and I think
that one of the things I toldthem to definitely add is the
sort of the veterans level whereif you're already a prior
customer, that's got the corebook and got, you know some of
the cards and the dice andwhatever, and you just want the
new stuff that that isn't apledge level that I believe last

(01:02:52):
I checked was the most popularpledge level. Everybody's got
all the stuff already. So getall the new stuff. And now
you've got yourself. You knoweverything that there is.
And then you know, obviously,there's the all in. So for
everybody that you know, wantsto be the completest and wants
to have all of all of theproducts. That's that's also
good. I'm looking at the factthat the one pound or one dollar

(01:03:16):
you know, entry level pledge.There's quite a few people in
there, and I think that thoseare folks that are kind of
riding, you know, the wave of ofof of the circumstances and see
what it is that they're gonnaend up adding at the end.
So I think that that'sdefinitely something you can
perceive as a positive for sure,because there's a lot of folks
that are in that level.

Matthew (01:03:37):
Yes. And then they may add stuff on in the campaign or
in the pledge manager after.

Sure. We welcome that for sure.

Matthew (01:03:44):
What's happening there. So that's that's good. Now I do
notice there is this weirdlittle book that you've also got
that has nothing at all to dowith the Pacific. Let me just
find it out again. Operationit's a gardening supplement?

It's a gardening supplement. It's all about, you
know, the farmers that wereaffected, over in Belgium and,
other places. So, yeah, now I'veIt's about the Nation Market
Garden. Dave's baby right there.Come on, Dave.
That's fantastic work.

Dave (01:04:16):
You know, I'm happy to sit here and just be abused by
Matthew. That's kind ofstandard. We've done it over the

Matthew (01:04:23):
last seven years. Why stop now?

Dave (01:04:25):
Forty seven. So, yeah, I mean Or maybe. I

mean, delighted

Dave (01:04:32):
to have the opportunity to do the next installment of the
the story of the hundred andfirst, which obviously operation
Market Garden, the audaciousplan from Field Marshal
Montgomery to try and get overthe Rhine through The
Netherlands by taking manybridges along a very narrow axis

(01:04:57):
of advance, which was alwaysgonna be challenging. The
hundred and first, the eightysecond airborne, a lot of the
British and Polish airbornetroops were all used to, as part
of the operation, to try andthen capture bridges and capture
the road, Highway 69, and thenusher the British thirty thirty

(01:05:20):
corps armored division alongthere so they could get over the
bridge at Arnhem and, you know,across the Rhine and into
Germany. We focus very much onthe hundred and first as we did
with, rendezvous with Destiny.So it's very much the, Eindhoven
area of, operations and what theone hundred and first

(01:05:41):
experienced. But, again, we'vetried to be very, faithful to
the history as far as we're ableto.
Had to take a few little, sortof liberties with some of it to
try and make sure the gamingexperience was as good as, we
could make it. But in essence,again, it's it's it's running
through that period of, youknow, about a month, about

(01:06:03):
thirty days worth of combat, oroperations before it became
clear in the real world. Anyonewho knows the history knows that
Market Garden didn't succeed.Not for lack of trying. There
was an awful lot of there werethere were there were I describe
it as a a lot of victories thatended in defeat because there

(01:06:27):
were a lot of victories, but theultimate objective, wasn't
achieved.
And I won't go into the variousreasons

Matthew (01:06:34):
why Spoilers. Spoilers tape.

Dave (01:06:36):
Well, and and it becomes a bit of a history lesson as well.
So as interesting as I find it,and I guess Gabe as a history
teacher finds it, I'm not sureanyone listening might find it.

Matthew (01:06:46):
So, Gabe, have you have you been involved in this at
all? I know Dave has done mostof the writing, but have you
been collaborating in any way orreading drafts?

Well, definitely. I read a couple of the drafts that
he had, and I think I might havegiven him just maybe one tiny
bit of advice very early on, andI can't even remember what it
was. I feel like I did. Butdefinitely this is 100% Dave's
child and, and it looksfantastic. I mean, I was able to

(01:07:18):
look at some of the final copyand some of the final maps,
which, of course, is, straightout of Dave's, penmanship and
artistry.
The final maps will kind of bedigitized and worked with to
match the same sort of artworkfrom the original book, but it
all looks great. He had a partin even choosing some of the

(01:07:41):
illustrations that we were ableto put together for his book.
And, it's a great follow-up. Imean, I think that that's one of
the. Greatest parts of the bookand war stories in general, the
ability to kind of havehistorically accurate campaign
that spans a good amount of timeand scenarios and admissions and

(01:08:08):
the fact that you you canactually open up a history book
or pop in a documentary ordownload or stream a documentary
and see all of the action and beable to connect it with what's
happening in your tabletop.
In a in a role playing game. Ithink that's the that's the best
part of the story. And I thinkthat that's what drove a lot of

(01:08:30):
people to get into war storiesand certainly for us to put it
together, So I think that thisbeing the second book of that
sort of trilogy is I mean to me,it feels like a movie and just
kind of the anticipation of amovie. Because you're you're
you're the ones that's providingthe characters and your DM or GM
is the one that's kind ofdirecting the whole thing. So

(01:08:53):
the fact that there's a trilogyinvolved.
I mean, there's a lot of RPGsthat have done trilogies as
well. But this is neat becauseit's from a historical
perspective. So I mean, if thinkif you're not jazzed about that,
I mean, they obviously may notbe a history buff, but, and an
RPG, you know, you got tocombine those two and it and it
and it really paints a nicepicture.

Dave (01:09:12):
No. I think that's really well said. I think the other
thing that I I love about it isthat we're not prescribing how
that history plays out in thesecampaigns either. So, you know,
the campaign, you know,depending on your player
actions, might come to adifferent result.

Correct.

Matthew (01:09:29):
We could win Market Garden.

Could happen. Capitalization. Far. You never
know, Dave. Come on.
Because Get the inspiration.

Dave (01:09:40):
Well, the thing is that I'm yeah. I'm I was about to get
into my history lesson again.But Market Garden, they're like
like three big sectors, andyou've got the hundred and first
sector around Eindhoven. You'vegot the eighty second airborne
sector around oh, I forgot thename now. The next one up.
And then you've got the Britishand the Polish around Arnhem.
And obviously, all three sectorshad to succeed.

Succeed.

Dave (01:10:01):
Yeah. Now the hundred and first, you know, succeeded in in
in many of their objectives. Butif all three didn't succeed,
then

Yeah. Wasn't wasn't gonna work

Dave (01:10:12):
out. Yeah.

Right.

Dave (01:10:14):
I mean, it's brilliant. I mean, there's a lovely bit of
history, with it, which I'lljust will bore you with because
I I love it, that I came across.

Matthew (01:10:22):
Sorry, Gabe.

Dave (01:10:23):
In in the sorry. I know this is your interview, Gabe.
But

Matthew (01:10:27):
You're meant you're meant to be the one boring us
with history, Gabe, not Dave.

I love it.

Dave (01:10:32):
I love it. Let me let

Matthew (01:10:33):
me let

Dave (01:10:33):
me be quick. Let me finish. So, Montgomery was so
set on this plan. He was sosingle-minded about it. It it
was basically intimidating andbadgering all the other
commanders, to get thisoperation authorized.
And at one point, he had thisthis meeting where he really
went off on one, withEisenhower. And at the end of
the meeting, Eisenhower said,you can't talk to me like that,

(01:10:55):
Monty. I'm your boss. And thenMonty went, oh, shit. Okay.
Fair enough. He started backingup. But I love it. That was that
was really what really happenedat the time.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.
Yeah. All that's great. I mean,you know, from, you know, from
that perspective to, you know,Teddy Roosevelt's son storming
the beaches of Normandy to,there's there's a there's a
small, tiny, tiny character andI'm not going to spoil it, but
there's a small tiny characterin Guadalcanal who happens to be

(01:11:27):
the grand or he was obviouslyhe's not with us anymore, but he
was the grandfather of a verybig pop star celebrity. I won't
say who. Won't say who.

Matthew (01:11:40):
You got me intrigued. Yeah. Is it easy to spot when
when you see his name, will youguess,

Dave (01:11:45):
oh, yes. Yes.

Matthew (01:11:47):
Yes.

Dave (01:11:48):
Swift, is it? Oh, come on, dude. It was a guess. It was a
guess.

No. You did not just guess that. Did you really?

Dave (01:11:57):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the obvious one to guess, isn't
it? Or should I say miss Kelsey?

Matthew (01:12:01):
Pop star personality. You bit the clue in the name
there.

I guess you're right. I guess you're right.
True Yeah, that's always neat tosee those elements of history
kind of come together. Andyou're right, David. It's true
that you know these stories gogo different ways.
And obviously, the playercharacters have an enormous role
in directing the sort of storythat ends up happening, and they
can absolutely change history,even if it's from a small

(01:12:25):
perspective in a very minutepart of a battlefield. It could
have a you know the butterflyeffect, and it could absolutely
change the outcome of some ofthe grander parts of the story.
So,

Matthew (01:12:39):
we're running out of time. Obviously, this is going
to be a success. It's certainlygone past its goal. It's doubled
its goal. There's a bit morework to do on it.
Is there a game for you? Well,

for me, actually, most of the work is done. I
think what I've got left is to,hand over some of the data on
the new Japanese weapon for thecards, the deck of cards that
we're putting together. The bookis done. It's out of my hands at
this point. Dave's book isobviously done.
It's out of his hands and, theGM screen is going to be the

(01:13:18):
same as the other GM screen,except with new art on one side.
There's been talk about thepossibility of making the GM
screen of a thicker material. Idon't know the logistics of
that, and I'm not sure if thatmay or may not be a stretch goal
further down, you know the lastfew days of the of the campaign.

(01:13:38):
And then any anything beyondthat? I'm trying to think it's
all in the hands of Lily, ourlayout artist extraordinaire.
And it's basically just aboutdone. She's doing the layout and
that's about it. Yeah, that's agreat

Matthew (01:13:54):
So, Gabe, what are you working on? Because you're not I
mean, obviously, you have a dayjob. You teach. But don't tell
me about that. That's boring.

Yeah. Actually, am working on I am working on
something for war stories. As amatter of fact, it is a sort of,
French resistance espionagesabotage kind of adventure. At
the moment it was going wellwhen I started about a month ago
or so, it was going to be arelatively small thing that

(01:14:26):
would probably be provided onour website via PDF download.
But as I've continued working inthe last four weeks, it's gone
bigger and bigger and bigger andbigger.
It's over 35 pages at thispoint, so, I am not 100% sure
what format it may end up being,and there is a an off chance and

(01:14:48):
a possibility that it will beincorporated into perhaps. An
espionage expansion, and that'salways been in the back of my
head to provide an espionageexpansion expansion for The OSS.
Yes So we all the different, youknow, part

Matthew (01:15:03):
of the

groups that are across Europe and we could even
go into the Pacific with that aswell. They're definitely
partisan groups there, from thelocal the local people as
wealth, but I don't know. It mayor may not end up in that book
or it may still be a standaloneproduct. Is going to be in
France and is on the West CoastOf France. There's going to be a

(01:15:26):
submarine pen involved and, andit's looking pretty interesting.
I've done an enormous amount ofresearch on submarine pens. I
probably know more than I needto ever know about submarine,
pets in Western Europe. But youhave to know those things before
you sabotage.

Dave (01:15:45):
It is amazing. They're really like, focused in specific
things that you learn a hell ofa load about when you're
researching this kind of game.Yes you'll never ever need
again.

No, never ever Ever. It's pretty cool, though.

Matthew (01:16:00):
So that excites me. I'm kind of torn now. Part of me
wants the PDF because we canhave the PDF as soon as you're
done. But also, with anEspionage expansion, I am
reminded, Dave, that when thisgame first came out and people
were going, oh, when are gonnado Eastern Front, North Africa,
whatever? I was going, oh, dad.

(01:16:21):
The the thing I wanna do ispartisans in Resistance. Broadly
in Europe, but French resistanceor wherever. There's loads of
partisans. Sure. Because for me,that gets closer to the role
playing experience around thetable as opposed to, you know,
little bit more distant from theskirmish game,

right?

Matthew (01:16:43):
That might be a war game.

Sure, sure, sure. As a matter of fact, you'll be
interested to know and this isthis is a tiny bit of detail on
my actual job as a teacher. MyAP students. I have a P U. S
history that I teach and theytook their test today.
And then they still have threeweeks left to school, but it's
pretty clear that theunderstanding is that once you

(01:17:06):
take your AP test, you're donein that class. No one wants to
do any more work for the nextthree weeks. They want zero work
and I am blessed with a verytiny class load of five
students.

Matthew (01:17:19):
Oh lovely.

We're going to play test my partisan, sabotage
campaign starting on Monday.I've got their characters all
lined up and we're going to sitin class and play.

Dave (01:17:31):
God, I have had the wrong teachers at school. Yeah. Was
just gonna say that.

It's gonna be great. And and two of them have
played RPGs. Three of them haveno idea what they're about to
dive into.

Dave (01:17:46):
How do I get into that class, Gabe? I guess I'm a bit
old, possibly, but you know.

Matthew (01:17:52):
Yeah. I think, Dave, you have to start teaching that
class. That's what I like to do.I'll tell you what, actually, a
friend of mine, Chris Kidlow,who's also in the industry, he
works KSU and stuff like that.He has very recently retrained
as a teacher and is having greatfun.

Oh, that's great. I love it. It. I have a great time
teaching. It's fun to have itand the kids all enjoy.
You know, you make the historycome alive as best as you can.
And, and give them as many ofthe gory details as possible.
You gotta you gotta sit into mydescription of Abraham Lincoln's
assassination. It gets prettyviolent.

Dave (01:18:29):
Okay. Well well, we'll when we've got a quiet show,
Gabe, we'll get you on to giveus a your ten minute or fifteen
minute description of

Matthew (01:18:37):
Gabe Link

Dave (01:18:37):
Gabe Linkin.

Abe Lincoln. Right. Right.

Dave (01:18:43):
Yeah. This is yeah. You're talking about Gabe Lincoln, some
other guy from

somewhere else. Other guy. You don't know who
that is.

Matthew (01:18:49):
Oh, it's brilliant. It's been a real pleasure having
you on the show again, Gabe.

Likewise, fellas. Love it. It's a great time.

Matthew (01:18:56):
Gabe is a lovely, lovely, lovely person,

isn't he?

Dave (01:19:00):
Yes. I am. Thank you.

Matthew (01:19:03):
Gabe, I said, not Dave.

Dave (01:19:04):
It sounded like you said Dave. But Gabe is a lovely,
lovely guy. I had a real, realblast working with him when we
did the original War Stories.Slightly on I I said in the
interview, you know, I Ijokingly said, no. You didn't
ask me to collaborate on thisone.
And I think Yeah. My slightdisappointment is simply because
I enjoyed working with Gabe somuch. So, you know, obviously, I

(01:19:26):
don't mind in the slightest thatthey didn't invite me to work on
the Pacific 1. But, yeah, Ithink my disappointment is that
Gabe is such a lovely guy, andhe's a real pleasure to work
with, and really collaborativeapproach for both of us. It was
it was super.

Matthew (01:19:44):
Excellent.

Dave (01:19:44):
Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, Pacific sounds great. I like the
idea that they're going to do aa rendezvous with Destiny style
campaign for Guadalcanal. Iguess that's gonna be really
cool. With hope for for more infuture if if it does well
enough.
So, yeah, get along and back it,folks. As at the time of
recording, I haven't got it upon my screen, which is a nice

Matthew (01:20:10):
I have got it up. And see what the numbers are. We're
looking at the moment at just a95 backers. They made 20 almost
22,000 pounds, which in dollarsis $29,000 from their original
goal of 12,000. So it's not nota success, but it's not a

(01:20:31):
massive number of backers, Yeah.

Dave (01:20:33):
I was when when I asked him, you know, in in in the
interview about about yeah. Igot I got a sense that they're a
little disappointed.

Matthew (01:20:41):
Yeah.

Dave (01:20:41):
But they've done well in that they've more than doubled
their pledge, and so the thebook will get produced. But But
I

Matthew (01:20:49):
think there is a thing that, you know, these are luxury
items, actually. Games. They'renot

Yeah.

Matthew (01:20:54):
You can't eat games. And, you know, I think maybe
there's a general feeling ofbeing a bit uncertain about what
the economy is doing,particularly in America.

I think

Dave (01:21:04):
that's

Matthew (01:21:04):
very true. All around the world, I think people might
just be pulling back a bit ofsome of the games.

Dave (01:21:10):
Waiting to see what what transpires and Yeah. Keeping
their powder dry. Yeah.

Matthew (01:21:15):
But they need to get better distribution overseas
because it's a great game andit's not in enough shops, in my
opinion.

Dave (01:21:24):
Yeah. I agree. Yeah. But, yes. Great.
Yeah. Brilliant. Okay. What whatare we what are we what are we
planning for next time?

Matthew (01:21:32):
So next time, I mentioned in our last episode
that I'd been quite inspired tolook at the rules. And maybe I
really loved Thomas's great shipthat he designed for us under
the Great Ship Adventure. But,you know, Thomas did say that's
all out of his head that the andand and the law of the great

(01:21:54):
dark. And I thought, well,maybe, you know, we we should
put some stuff out there thatthat helps people enjoy enjoy
some of that lore of great art.A bit like we did in the old
days when

Dave (01:22:05):
we were

Matthew (01:22:06):
with the Coriolis effect.

Dave (01:22:07):
Absolutely.

Matthew (01:22:07):
And I thought I might start off by trying to design a
great ship in the same way that,obviously not exactly the same
way that Thomas did, becausethat would just be copying his
homework, but have a go usingtheir great ship design tables
and things and see what I comeup with. Talk a bit about what
great ships might mean in thisnew horizon that we're all

(01:22:30):
having to deal with.

Dave (01:22:31):
Yeah. That sounds like a great idea. Yeah. I'll be I'll
be well up for for that.

Matthew (01:22:34):
Does that sound bitter that we're all having to deal
with? Do I sound like somebodywho really wants to be in the
third horizon?

Dave (01:22:42):
No. No. More business

Matthew (01:22:43):
than Honestly, I will.

Dave (01:22:45):
Eventually. One day.

Matthew (01:22:47):
Eventually. Yeah.

Dave (01:22:48):
No. That sounds great. Right. Cool.

Matthew (01:22:50):
I mean, we are a bit busy over the next couple of
weeks planning for UK GamesExpo, but hopefully, I'll find
some time to do that. So that'sthat's what we'll try and
present to you in two weeks'time.

Dave (01:23:00):
Cool. Excellent stuff. Right. With that then, I guess
that's us done for today. Soit's goodbye for me.

Matthew (01:23:10):
And it's goodbye from him.

Dave (01:23:12):
And may the icons bless your adventures.

Matthew (01:23:16):
Nice Florida accent. Good attempt, aye.

Was it a

Dave (01:23:20):
attempt? Florida accent? Are we going well?

Matthew (01:23:22):
I have no idea.

Dave (01:23:24):
No. Me neither. And I'm not sure it sounded much like
Gabe either, but yeah. You havebeen listening to the effect
podcast presented by FictionSuit and the RPG gods. Music
stars on a black sea used withpermission of Free League
Publishing.

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