Rollin,' Rollin,' Rollin'

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dave (00:40):
Hello, and welcome to episode 240 of Effect. Rolling,
rolling, rolling. I'm tempted tocarry on singing, but I won't.
I'm I'm Dave.

Matthew (00:53):
Thank you. And I'm Matthew. And I'm very relieved
that you haven't carried on thatwhole song. Yeah. Singing.
Even though I chose the title.

Dave (01:01):
Yeah. Singing is probably overstating what it was that I
was doing there, actually. So,yeah. Wouldn't wanna confuse it
with somebody who can actuallysing.
Anyway, yes.

Matthew (01:09):
Then again, the westerns have got a long
tradition of people who can'tnecessarily sing singing. I I
seem to remember, Lee Van Cleef,was it? Growling out, I was born
under a wandering star. I wasborn under a wanderer. No.
No. That that wasn't aninvitation, Dave.

Dave (01:31):
Yes. Sorry.

Matthew (01:32):
I I have We have got a packed episode, Dave.

Dave (01:36):
Yes.

Matthew (01:38):
And, I'm gonna tell you what we're gonna talk about.
We've got a new patron who hasnot only patronized us and come
on the Discord, but you havealso met him personally. I know.
So you can tell us Yeah. Allabout him in a bit, but we'll
say thank you to him.
We've got some news to the worldof gaming. We've got, of course,
as one might expect in themiddle of a certain Kickstarter

(02:00):
campaign, we may have an oldwest news. And we've also got an
interview with Chris, Vermeeran,who is our evil competitor in in
the Kickstarter stakes, runninga year 0 Kickstarter at the same
time. But a lovely bloke.

Dave (02:18):
You can't you can't you can't you can't you can't you
can't you can't you can't youcan't you can't you can't you
can't you can't you can't youcan't you can't you can't you
can't you can't you can't
you Yeah. You can'tcall him evil. He owns a German
shepherd. So that makes sense.

Matthew (02:23):
Oh, no. That is true.

Dave (02:24):
That makes him a very good man in my book. Regardless of
whatever the other heinouscrimes he may have or may not
have been to.

Matthew (02:32):
However, yes. So, he's a lovely bloke. And he's
convinced us both, well, hehasn't quite convinced me yet,
but I will be back in his gameon the strength of that
interview because, he's thoughta lot about terminal state, and
it is it is better than Ithought it was, I think, when we
talked about it last time on theYeah. In the world of gaming.

Dave (02:54):
Are you looking at it on the on the Kickstarter page?
Actually, it doesn't do itjustice, I think. Because

Matthew (03:00):
No. No. Exactly. Yeah.

Dave (03:02):
Likewise. I was convinced to back it based on the
conversation we had with him,because there's a lot of lovely
little ideas in there actually.And you know, cyberpunk, you
might think it's a bit of an oldand worn genres, particularly
lately. And we've talked about,you know, some cyberpunk games
recently. But this had some nicereally nice takes on it.
And, yes. So I've backed it, andI'm hoping, hoping that he can

(03:22):
get get over the line.

Matthew (03:25):
Yeah. And then I hope we can get over the line,
because by the time we've donethat, we'll be talking about our
next episode and saying goodbye.And that is the full content of
this episode.

Dave (03:37):
'tis. K.

Matthew (03:38):
So shall we start it with a thank you and a personal
description of our new patron,Nils L. I know nothing about
you, Nils. I don't even knowyour surname other than it
begins with the letter l. Butyou've already been an active
member of the Discord, which Ialso like. Everybody who's a

(04:01):
patron, if you're not on theDiscord, come to the Discord.
Join the nicest place on theInternet. But you've also met
him in person. Tell me aboutthat.

Dave (04:10):
Yeah. It was, it was lovely. So, Nils and, Ricard,
from

Matthew (04:17):
Long term patron, Ricard.

Dave (04:18):
Both from both from Stockholm, had come over to
Edinburgh for tabletop Scotland,and came over and said hello,
and introduced themselves. Itwas lovely to meet them in in
person. You know, that's whatone of the things I really love
about conventions. It's gettingthe opportunity to put a face to
the name, and to actually sayhello, and have a chat with with

(04:39):
some of our lovely, lovelyfriends and supporters. And it
was great, because they theyboth, signed up for what
happened to be the last demo oftales of the old west for the
convention.
And I was really looking forwardto it, because of the other
players, one of the one of thevolunteers at tabletop Scotland,

(05:00):
lovely guy called Brian. He cameover and talked to me and was
trying to find a time where hecould join a demo, because he
really wanted to. But he wasobviously working. We managed to
squeeze him in. And then we had2 other lovely people, Howard
and Vicky, who I'm sure I'veseen at another convention.
They both look really familiar,but they're both lovely. And I I

(05:20):
had spoken to them beforehand.So I knew I had these 5 people
coming for this particular demo.And, you know, running a demo
like this with strangers,there's always a little bit of
trepidation as a GM. You know,will they like it?
Will they get involved? Will itbe difficult? What kind of
people are they? All that kindof stuff. But on this occasion,
I knew all 5 were gonna besuperb players, and it was gonna
be loads of fun.

(05:41):
And it was great. I really youknow, I got to enjoy that demo
as a player, and then you know,GM player, rather than a
somebody running a demo. It wasgreat. But Niels was lovely, and
we had a quite a long chat afterthe game. He's been working on
some some stories that he's kindof feeling.
He got a bit of mental block on.So we were chatting about that,

(06:01):
and trying to give him someadvice about how I might, you
know, try and deal with some ofthe issues he was finding. But
lovely, lovely, lovely fellow.Ricard, fabulous guy. It was a
real delight to meet them both.
I know they had some potentialproblems about their flights
home because of the weather. Sohopefully, Nils, Ricard, if

(06:21):
you're listening, I really hopeyou got home safe and sound
without too much faff andbother. And, yeah. It was great.
And so delighted to have haveNils on board.
Lovely lovely guy.

Matthew (06:31):
Cool. So thank you, Nils, for for backing us and for
flying all the way over to, fromStockholm with Ricard simply to
meet Dave. That's not a thingI'd do personally, but,

Chris V (06:44):
I'm not

Matthew (06:44):
I'm not sure

Dave (06:44):
it was simply to meet me, frankly. I suspect they had some
other things in mind as well,but it was lovely. It was lovely
to meet them in person, really,Rose.

Matthew (06:53):
It is brilliant. So, that's that's our only new
backer, but, of course, thankyou to all our patrons. And
here's me confusing backers andpatrons for reasons that will be
explained, I'm sure, later on.So, we're on to the world of
gaming.

Chris V (07:13):
We are.

Matthew (07:14):
And the first item in the world of gaming is one we've
already talked about, I think,when it was first announced. But
now they've announced actual preorders, and I think you can when
you pre order, you can get aPDF, and that is for space 1999.

Dave (07:29):
Indeed. Indeed. Yep. We're behind you know, with the, the
creative mind of of, our friend,Andy Andy Peregrine behind it.
Of, always work for loads ofthings, But he does quite a lot
with Modiphius at the moment.

Matthew (07:45):
Mhmm.

Dave (07:46):
Yeah. I mean I mean, nostalgia alert. I mean, you
know, red alert nostalgia.Looking at the cover of that
book, I just want to get it justfor the pub just for the cover
because it it it

Matthew (08:00):
Now you see, I assumed you'd be kind of first in the
queue for this because, youknow, we've already talked ad
nauseam about the eagle beingone of your favorite spaceships.

Dave (08:08):
I absolutely love the eagle. Yeah. It is it is
probably my favorite sci fispaceship of all time, I think.
Yeah.

Matthew (08:17):
So so why are you why are you not there? Why are you
not singing it as praises to me?Why haven't you been badging
Andy Peregrine throughadventures for it? All that sort
of stuff. What's going on?

Dave (08:30):
Well, I did have a little chat with Andy, UK games expert
about it. But, I haven't beenbadgering him. Bunch of reasons.
1, I've got no money. So I'mhaving to be very careful where
I'm where I'm where I'm spendingat the moment.

Matthew (08:46):
Hence the badgering Andy Peregrine about writing
adventures for him and thengetting money for those
adventures.

Dave (08:51):
Well, number 2 is that having had a really quiet
spring, all the projects I waswaiting for all came at the same
time as did tales of the oldwest. So at the moment, I'm
doing about, you know well, mymy my day is basically getting
up thinking about gaming,working all day, going to bed
thinking about gaming, wakingup, say, I don't have time for

(09:11):
anything else. So what I didn'twanna do is badger him for
something only to either make itmake make it really anxiety
inducing for me to try anddeliver something good, or not
deliver something to thestandard that I would wanna
deliver it. But I would verymuch love to work on space 999.
Absolutely.
I guess my other thing is, Imean, he's it's been a pretty

(09:33):
quick flash to bang from fromfrom what I what I understand
from having spoken to Andy aboutit at UK games expo, which is
great. And they've done a greatjob in doing that. I I I do just
wonder a little bit how well thespace 1999 universe converts
into a role playing game. Ihaven't looked at the rules. You

(09:58):
know, I I so this is just a, youknow, like a first off new jerk
reaction kind of thing.
But, so I need to get a look atthe book. But, yeah. So I I just
wonder a little bit. So I Idon't have I don't have the
money or the time to pick up toomany new games at the moment. So
that's the only reason reallyI'm I'm standing off for now.

(10:21):
I suspect I will pick it up atsome point in the future, but
I'm probably not gonna pre orderit.

Matthew (10:27):
I I have a problem with Space 1999, I have to say, Which
is, although there were manyaspects of it that I loved,
loved, loved, loved. There werevery many that I just can't get
behind and don't enjoy. I mean,I love the actual actors, you

(10:49):
know, Martin Landau, BarbaraBain Yeah. The old bloke whose
name I've temporarily gone outof my head. Yeah.

Dave (10:55):
I can picture him.

Matthew (10:57):
Yeah. Him. Him. Yeah. We can all see him in our mind's
eye, but can you remember hisname?
No. We can't, Dane.

Dave (11:02):
And the and the woman who played Maya, and then there's
And It's not Terry Nash.

Matthew (11:06):
No. Actually, you see, the woman who played Maya wasn't
doing it for me at all. The guyThe whole Maya

Dave (11:11):
I I I need to know now. I'm gonna look this up whilst
you're talking.

Matthew (11:14):
You you look it up.

Dave (11:15):
Because there there was there's one character who is the
who's a eagle pilot, and he hasgot a close friend who is a a
little lady. And I they're bothgreat, and I can't remember
either of them. So I'm gonna yousorry. You can't remember.

Matthew (11:29):
Remembered Space 1999. This

Dave (11:31):
is what

Matthew (11:32):
Alice says.

Dave (11:33):
This is what they listen for. Yeah. Exactly.

Matthew (11:36):
I gotta say, I would love to have, watched a movie of
Space 1999, like a disastermovie. The episodes that I
remember are the ones wherethey're on the moon and things
are going wrong on the moon.Yeah. The puncy Star Trek thing
where they're flying through asolar system and meeting strange
alien cultures, do it for me.Not at all.

Dave (12:00):
No. The the science behind space 1999 doesn't exist,

Chris V (12:04):
does it?

Dave (12:04):
I mean, you have to No. You have to completely hand wave
that, what is frankly bullshit.Yeah.

Matthew (12:12):
And I know that, I know it's very popular here in the
UK. I understand it has quite astrong following in America.
Obviously, it was designed,although it was made here, it
was designed very much with thatITC international audience type
thing that, Michael Grade's dad,Lou Grade Lou Grade was always
trying to push his shows fortransatlantic shows. Yeah. So I

(12:35):
but I don't know I don't knowwhether it's got much pull for
role playing game in thecontinental North America.
But no. It sorry. It justdoesn't do anything for me as a
as an IP. So I don't think I'mgonna back it.

Dave (12:50):
So the guy you were trying to think of was Barry Morse who
played Victor.

Matthew (12:53):
Barry Morse. That's his Dave. As soon as you say it, I
can remember him.

Dave (12:57):
Yeah. And the 2 I was thinking of was, Zenia Merten,
who played Sandra Benes, andNick Tate, who played Alan
Carter. And I particularly

Matthew (13:06):
Nick Tate was a good looking fellow in the classic
70s mold of good lookingfellows.

Dave (13:10):
I think I wanted to be Nick Tate or, you know, Carter
in in Space 1999, because he gotto fly all the Eagles.

Matthew (13:18):
Well, now you can, Dave. All you need to do is

Dave (13:20):
buy the book. That that is true. It'd be interesting. I
mean, as I said, I don't knowmuch about it. Having had a
quick look at some of the stuffaround it, the the the the the
the spreads that they've shownto me had a very star trek

Chris V (13:33):
adventures kind of vibe in terms of the look and feel

Dave (13:33):
of what they've done. Trek adventures. And I'm I'm basing
this only on this from Star TrekAdventures. And I'm I'm basing

(13:54):
this only on seeing, you know, aspread of a page or 2.

Matthew (13:57):
A few spreads.

Dave (13:58):
So again again, it's it's a it's an initial reaction. But
again, I just kinda wonderwhether they could have done
something. Change the stylesignificantly to really
differentiate it from from someof the other products that
they've got going on. But Ifully suspect or expect I will
purchase that book at some pointas I've just

Matthew (14:19):
Right.

Dave (14:19):
I'm just not gonna pre order it now. I don't think I'm

Matthew (14:22):
gonna pre order it.

Dave (14:23):
There's a little bit in my back. I had saying, why don't
you just back it anyway? You gotsome got some birthday money.
But we'll see. We'll see.

Matthew (14:31):
Well, let's wait and see. You know? Yeah. Let's wait
and see. It's not like you'vegot time to run the game.

Dave (14:41):
No. Exactly.

Matthew (14:41):
And and, of course, the fact is really you want somebody
else to buy it so that you canbe Nick Tate. You don't wanna be
the GM. No. So no. You gottaconvince somebody else to buy
it.
I think that's that's myconclusion on this.

Dave (14:53):
I understand your property. That won't be you on
this occasion, I suspect.

Matthew (14:57):
And it won't be me running it. I can guarantee
that. Yeah. You gotta findsomebody other than me to buy
it. I'm no fool.

Dave (15:04):
Well, I mean, that that's debatable. But, yeah. Anyway

Matthew (15:08):
Another thing that I don't think I'll be buying, but
only because it's in Swedish isPartizan, a new game from friend
of the show, Anders Blixt.

Dave (15:19):
Yeah. So this is really interesting. Tell

Matthew (15:21):
me about it, Dave.

Dave (15:23):
So not having not having heard of it at all, frankly, it
came up that he's just had alaunch party this last week for
for partisan. And it's a gamewhich feels anyway to have a a
twilight 2,000 kind of vibeabout it. In that it's it's
based on or or the backstory toit is based on a real event that

(15:45):
happened in the eighties when aRussian submarine was beached or
was, ran ashore, just on Sweden.And it caused a big flurry at
the time. I can vaguely rememberthat happening actually.
I I don't remember the detail,but I do there's a bit of me.
You know, the teenage meremembering that that story
happening. And in partisan, thatstory, obviously, because in the

(16:11):
real world, I don't remember howit was resolved, but it didn't
resolve in any violent conflict.In partisan, it does resolve in
violent conflict, and the WarsawPact states invade Sweden. And
you then play, as the gamesuggests, a partisan

Matthew (16:26):
Swedish partisan.

Dave (16:27):
Fighting against the, you know, the occupying forces of,
of of the Eastern Bloc. And,yeah. I just I I love the idea
of it. You know, he had the ideaoriginally in the eighties when
all this happened. So this is a,you know, we think it took us a
long time to get Tales of theOld West at the table.
This has taken him for 40 years.So, you know, good on him for

(16:51):
sticking with it, and gettingthere in the end, and and and
delivering it. So I I have had aa copy sent through. Thanks to
the administrations of ourlovely new patron, Nils, which
is brilliant. I haven't had achance to download download it
yet.
But I think I suspect it's gonnabe in Swedish, which Yes. Which

(17:11):
I can't read very much. But,looking at the just some of the
images online, again, it lookslovely. It does have a a a kind
of I mean, it's interesting.It's got a kind of between
twilight 2,000 and war storiessort of the feel to it in terms
of the artwork and and the wayit's the way it's laid out.
So I think it it looks lovely.But, yeah, I just sort of wanted

(17:36):
to mention it because it wasit's a really interesting thing.
It's a demonstration of ofAnders, desire to get this game
to the table eventually, seeingit has taken him literal decades
to do it. And, yeah. I justthought it was worth a shout
out.

Matthew (17:52):
And and so again, one for our Swedish listeners in 2
ways. One being it's in Swedish,but also I it's a very local
story, and I I expect we'reprobably not gonna get to see an
English translation becausebecause I guess the market won't
be there unless unless with,Magnus' book coming out on the

(18:15):
Swedish invasion of gaming andother stuff. Yeah. There is a
huge demand from the continentalUS, see it. So American
listeners start demanding it ofthe Swedish publisher, who I
have no idea who that is.
We'll put a link in the shownotes as soon as Dave or Nils
gives me a link to put it in theshow notes.

Dave (18:33):
So the

Matthew (18:33):
because I can't I've Googled for it and I can't find
it because Google obviouslyknows I don't speak Swedish.

Dave (18:38):
So, the publisher is called Eloso, e l l

Matthew (18:42):
s Oh, Eloso. Yeah. No. Eloso have done some other
stuff. Yeah.

Dave (18:45):
Yeah. So, I could probably but there's a link here on this
thing I'm looking at. I'll seeif I can copy that and send it
to you on the Discord.

Matthew (18:56):
I might. Now you said hello so, I might be able to do
it.

Dave (19:00):
But yeah. So, yeah. Interesting. And also, I mean,
it's an interesting one, becauseit it does kind of reflect a
little bit of twilight 2000.Because obviously in that game,
you've got the US and the andthe Swedish setting.
So it's it's dovetailing alittle bit in in with that. I
don't know what the rules arelike. I don't know what the
mechanics are like. But, yeah. Ithought it was well worth a

(19:22):
shout out.
And good luck to Anders, and Ihope it does really well.

Matthew (19:26):
Yes. I'm seeing the website now. Actually, a lec
expert partisan, it'd be it'd becalled.

Dave (19:36):
Yeah. Although everyone seems to be although everyone
seems to be referring to it justas partisan. Although it does
you're right. It does haveexpert above the title. But
yeah.

Matthew (19:47):
And here's all very much, as you say, there's some
sample spreads here that remindme very much of War Stories. No,
not War Stories.

Dave (19:56):
Twilight 2000.

Matthew (19:57):
Well, as you say, actually, a cross between War
Stories and Twilight 2000. Yeah.There's

Dave (20:02):
definitely a a feel a feel there. But, yeah, it's good
stuff. I like I like it. If itwas in English, I would probably
give it give it a punt.

Matthew (20:11):
Yeah. That's entirely distracted me from the rest of
the world of gaming, lookingthat up. But the other exciting
news, which again, like Space1999, goes back to something we
talked about a few episodes ago,and that was Chaosium's basic
role playing worlds competitionwhere they said, you know, send

(20:36):
us your world and potentiallywin money. A I think a $10,000
prize fund of which, people whoare shortlisted for the final
award get all the shortlisteesget $500, and they've all been
announced. Okay.
Cool. Now I think there's now apublic vote for, the design

(21:00):
challenge.

Dave (21:01):
Right.

Matthew (21:01):
To choose the top 3. I am not sure how you're meant to
choose. I don't know whetherthese are already available
somewhere, and you can downloadthem, read them, and then
choose, or whether I can't seelinks for them so I'm assuming
you get to choose from the, theblurbs that have been written

(21:24):
for them. But again, I'll put alink in the show notes. And
there are some interestingblurbs that I want to pull out.
One of which, is CLEO by IanHathaway and, Erika Boro written
one of them is one of those is ahistorian and one's an

(21:44):
archaeologist. They've done itin the History and Games Lab
which our patron Bruce hasattended and talks about in the
Discord at the University ofEdinburgh, and it's a fun RPG
usable for public history and inclass education at different
levels. In CLEO, you play as ahistory enthusiast known as a
diver who, thanks to advancedAI, can experience the past

(22:07):
firsthand. Mhmm. Each of CLEO'sscenarios contain quick to
explore nodes combiningtraditional basic role playing,
gameplay, and some board gamingstyle stuff as well.
Now that interests me in allsorts of ways, partly because I
have a PhD in exploring the pastthrough ludic narratives. But

(22:30):
also it reminds me a bit ofplaying, the experience of
playing, oh, god. What's itcalled? Assassin's Creed, where
you dive into the past. Yeah.
And also because it's from, youknow, friend of friends, the,
the Edinburgh Games Lab. Yep.But, yeah, I don't know quite

(22:54):
how to get my hands on that.That's that's one that leapt out
at me as a thing I'd like totake a deeper look at. But I
don't know whether you just haveto vote and then hope that they
win, and then then it getspublished.

Dave (23:05):
Get the product. Yeah. How how many shortlisted candidates
are there?

Matthew (23:10):
So let me count them. There are 10 shortlisted
candidates.

Dave (23:14):
Right. Cool.

Matthew (23:17):
They could

Dave (23:18):
There could be only 1.

Matthew (23:20):
There could No. I think there can be 3 winners of top
prizes.

Dave (23:24):
Right.

Matthew (23:27):
3 winners selected by the judges will be announced
after the People's voting hasclosed. That's right. You can
vote for your favorite rightnow. The People's Choice winner
will win another £500 whether ornot they get any of the major
prizes.

Dave (23:40):
Right.

Matthew (23:41):
And each of the 3 winners will get another $2,000,
not pounds. Sorry.

Dave (23:50):
Cool.

Matthew (23:51):
And, Yeah. Yes. So, check out we'll put a link in
the show notes, and, you cancheck those out and see if
there's any you want to votefor. That's all I'm gonna say
about that, I think. I've runout of other stuff to say.

Dave (24:07):
Cool. Cool. Yeah. If should watch with interest.

Matthew (24:12):
Discworld, Dave. Discworld role playing game is
coming to Kickstarter soon.Again, I think this is what
we've talked about in the past,but actually able to be funded
shortly.

Dave (24:24):
Yes. So, Modiphius.

Matthew (24:27):
Again?

Dave (24:28):
Again. They're busy people at Modiphius. So I I had a
little chat with, with Danny anda couple of others from
Modiphius at Tabletop Scotland,and, talked about this. And I
think this is not going to be a2 d 20 game, unless I'm getting
confused with something else.But I think that they were
telling me that I don't knowwhat the mechanics are gonna be,

(24:50):
but Discworld RPG won't be 2 d20, which will be a departure,
obviously, for for Modiphius.
But it's an interesting Now

Matthew (24:57):
that you mentioned that, I feel we did talk about
it a bit ages ago, and it lookedlike quite an interesting much
more narrative mechanic, but Ihonestly can't remember.

Dave (25:07):
Yeah. So I I don't know any more detail about it, but
but I'm I'm pretty I'm prettysure this is their first RPG
departure away from away from 2d 20, which I think is fine,
actually. There's a lot of 2 d20 games out there now. And,
it's it's funny. I've just hadkind of a so, yeah.
There's a lot of years zeroengine games out there. And

(25:29):
Mhmm. I I, you know, obviously,I love the year zero engine. I
mean, I quite like 2 d 20 as asystem as well. But there's a
bit of me that that feels, maybewe've got enough 2 d 20 games
out there.
We don't really need anymore, ordon't need another one quite
yet. But I don't feel the sameabout year 0. Well, naturally
enough, because we're in theprocess of producing another
one.

Matthew (25:50):
There needs to be at least one more, Dave. And I'm

Dave (25:53):
and I'm not just saying that because we are in the
middle of of producing a year 0game. But yeah, that just kind
of That that that insight juststruck me, in that moment, and
thought I think on the basis ofthe thought that discworld not
being 2 d 20 would be a goodthing, and you know, diversify
Modiphius's, you know, you know,mechanical approach to role

(26:17):
playing games a little bit.Which I think also would be a
good thing. Discworld itself, Ilove the books. I don't think I
read all of them.
But some some of those that I Iremember like, you know the
original Color of Magic, andGuards Guards, and Mort in
particular were absolutelyfabulous. How again, similar to
Space 1999. How they convert,and how they convert well into a

(26:40):
role playing game is anotherquestion. For me anyway, I think
you know, the the the troublewith taking a, a a, what's the
word I'm looking for? An IP likethat.

Matthew (26:54):
An IP.

Dave (26:54):
Yeah. That wasn't the word I was looking for, but it it'll
do.

Matthew (26:57):
It'll do.

Dave (26:58):
An IP like that that's got comedy so deeply woven into it
as as its current IP. Becausethat, you know, because of the
books. How do you recreate thatfeel at the table? And do you
even try? And if you don't tryor you don't succeed, does that

(27:18):
mean that Discworld RPG is justanother fantasy RPG just set you
know in the world of discord.
And it doesn't really make bringanything new. Or, you know, or
how do you, you know, havinggames that are kind of telling
you to be funny and laugh a lotis fine. But you can't force

(27:39):
people to be funny and laugh alot. Particularly not to get to
the level of witticism thatTerry Pratchett achieved, you
know, at his best. So I don'tknow.
I don't again, I know nothingelse about it, but that my my
initial feel is that, while Ilove Discworld, again, it might
be difficult to translate into arole playing game.

Matthew (27:59):
Yeah. No. I I I we've spoken about it before, and
we've agreed, I think, beforethat you and I, at least, can't
really see the attractions ofrole playing games apart from
toon that are designed to befunny. Yeah. And toon was just

Dave (28:19):
stupid in in a in a good way. Silly.

Matthew (28:21):
Yes.

Dave (28:22):
Silly silly stupid. And you you you go into it with that
kind of attitude. There's notthere is no other thing out
there, you know, there is noother thing to do in toon, other
than be a cartoon character thatgets falls off cliffs and gets
squashed with anvils. And it'sgreat. Yeah.
There there there's no pretenseto some other deeper story.
Whereas I feel if you're gonnado something in Disworld, at
least I would have an urge, evenif I tried to to resist it, I

(28:45):
would have an urge to thatdeeper story.

Matthew (28:48):
And there's a thing I I I kinda have a number of issues
with this. So so, yes, there'sthat thing about and and I'm not
talking about fun, because loadsof games are funny when you
bring them to the table. I Iremember our first stream of
Mork Boyer, we had we hadcomments there saying, no. This
is gonna be a dark and seriousgame, and you're laughing too

(29:10):
much. You're having too muchfun.
No. I don't think so. I thinkit's meant to be funny, or at
least fun, if not comedic. Andand that's the thing. I feel
I've not read the whole oeuvreof Terry Pratchett, but I've
read a good number of the books.
Yeah. And, of course, part ofthe reason why they click with
people like you and me is theyremind us actually of games of

(29:35):
I'm gonna say it, genericfantasy role playing games that
we have been involved in andsome of the silly ideas that
we've come up with. I have noidea whether Terry Pratchett
himself was a gamer, but I findit hard to believe that he
wasn't. Mhmm. And I'm prettysure that his games of D and D
or Rune Quest or whatever it washe was playing kind of in you

(29:56):
know, some of the ideas in hisbooks came out of those games.
Yeah. That that thing as well ofyou know, one of the things he
does is he uses the fancysetting to take something very
real and modern, like taxes orthe the the the the postal
system Insurance. And kind ofsatirize them in that way. Yeah.
And we all do that.

(30:17):
You know? I mean, D and D isfull of people, you know,
wanting to build a departmentstore, which is an entirely 19th
century creation in this protomedieval stuff. We that being a
kind of the D and D world isthat is the same mishmash. So

Dave (30:32):
Yeah.

Matthew (30:33):
Personally, I really don't wanna hear myself say
this. But, personally, if I weredeciding I want to, you know,
profess my love for Discworld ingame form, I'd just be writing a
5 e supplement, actually, at theend of it. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

(30:57):
I I don't know. I I'd be I'd beinterested to see the system and
how they handle it and how theymake it funny, or fun enough to
be funny, maybe is the way Ishould describe it. Yeah. But
but, actually, I think, youknow, years ago, there was a
GURPS Discworld book.

Dave (31:17):
Yes.

Matthew (31:17):
Probably did the job. I mean, GURPS surely feels to me
like the least funny systemthere can be.

Dave (31:26):
But but,

Matthew (31:27):
you know, that's kinda what you need. You just need
here, you know, here is yoursisterized list list of
everything that's gone on in inDiscworld, where it all fits
together, some stat blocks.That'll do. Now go and have fun
at the table. The same sort offun you've always had at the
table Mhmm.
With a with a slightly Discworldflavor.

Dave (31:44):
Yeah. I mean, as

Matthew (31:45):
Ran over.

Dave (31:46):
Yeah. No. No. I suspect that as with a lot of their
stuff, Modiphius will do abanging job, and it will be
beautiful game. And it, youknow, they they are getting a
reputation for doing excellentstarter sets.
So the the dreams of machinesstarter set is just packed full
of stuff. You know, it's quitehow they make a profit on it. I
don't know. So I suspect it'sgonna be beautiful to to hold.

(32:09):
Production values will be great.
And I'd be interested to seewhat the what the, what the
mechanic is. But again, I I forreasons of, like, mentioned
earlier, I won't be backing itat this point, but might pick it
up, you know, in future perhaps.

Matthew (32:25):
Now it'll be interesting to look at the
Kickstarter as well. Because,again, if I were doing this and
if I were a big company orbigger than you and me, Dave,
you know, with with money to notmoney to burn, but, you know,
with capital to put behind theKickstarter rather than purely
asking the Kickstarter for thecapital we need to publish the
book. Yeah. I would be doing awhole bunch of ephemera around

(32:49):
this because I reckon there's awhole bunch of, shall we say, un
unrequited Discworld, collectorswho frankly, I haven't seen
enough in the way of, say,plastic figures of Discworld
characters. Yeah.

(33:10):
And it's not a thing it's not athing that I buy, but loads of
science fiction and fantasy IPshave got some really strong
representation in those shops,like Forbidden Planet is
nowadays, full of plastic tat.And Yeah. If I had the Discworld
license, I'd be looking to, youknow, give you dice towers and
all sorts of shit that arereference the reference the

(33:33):
books in some way, you know, alittle plastic figure of death
to put on your table

Chris V (33:38):
when you're

Matthew (33:38):
making your death saves and stuff like that. I I I think
you can have great fun withthat. And it might be a big
success, actually, if they wereto go down that,
three-dimensional tat route.

Dave (33:49):
And they yeah. And they do. I mean, they've, you know,
they they have a lot of, youknow, expertise and ability in
producing, those kind ofmaterials. So just having a
quick look at the disc the, theKickstarter page. So they've got
nearly 7,000 followers.

Matthew (34:09):
Yeah. Knocked out 550 into a cocktail, didn't it?

Dave (34:12):
Well, I was well, I was pretty pleased with that. Well,
504

Matthew (34:15):
at the point So was I.

Dave (34:17):
Launched. Oh, yeah. But we're not we're not Modiphius,
are we? And we're we're notfanning, so we can't really
compete. But that's I I was verypleased with our yeah.
So it doesn't say very much.With imagination and some shiny
math rocks at your fingertips,your story on the disc awaits.

(34:37):
So, yeah, look forward to seeingwhat what's there when it when
it comes out. Cool.

Matthew (34:45):
So, I Hold on. I've now I'm sure there's some other news
apart from Discworld, news forthe world of gaming. What have
we got in my running order?

Dave (34:54):
So at Tabletop Scotland, I picked up my copy of Ejian by
our pal and friend of the show,Stu Gough, which I seem to be
having terrible trouble withpledge managers, as in deleting
the email without looking, andtherefore not completing pledge
managers lately. So, Steve camein to find me and said, I've got

(35:17):
your June book. So, I I poppedaround and and picked it up.
Look, I wanted to say that Ihaven't had a chance to read it
yet. I'm really interested tolook into his city building
rules.
Because as you know, I'm verymuch into those kind of things.
But I just wanted to say,actually, although there's not a
lot of art in the book, it's ait's a lovely, lovely book. It's

(35:39):
really nicely put together.It's, it's a a 5. A 5, the
smaller one?
A 5, the smaller one?

Matthew (35:48):
Well, I I mean, there's a number of smaller sizes in it.
I know.

Dave (35:51):
It's it's kind of

Matthew (35:51):
And you know, I try and educate you all the times on the
various sizes of books. But I

Dave (35:55):
was thinking that earlier, and I thought I've got no idea
actually what size this is. Butit's that like slightly smaller
than a 4. And it's thick. It'sit's a good inch and a half
thick. It's got sort of 300pages of great really good
quality paper.
And it's really nicely laid out.And for for a book that doesn't
have a lot lot of arch in it,it's still really engaging and

(36:18):
drawing me in. So I just wantedto do a little shout out, and
thanks to Stu for for sorting meout with my my my terrible,
terrible ability to deal withpledge managers. Yeah. And I'm
looking forward to reading thatstuff, and when I have read it,
I will I will talk about it onthe podcast.
But, yeah. Okay. Give a littlelittle shout out

Matthew (36:36):
to Stu there,

Dave (36:36):
and and a big thank you for for sorting me out. So it's
a really good looking book.Excellent.

Matthew (36:46):
And and talking of, conventions, I added another
thing in the last minute ontothe

Dave (36:51):
I see.

Matthew (36:51):
Order. And that is that we are officially going to
Dragonmeet. Yep. We will bethere, of course, representing,

Dave (37:02):
Free League.

Matthew (37:03):
They've officially asked us to go and, run their
stand. So we will be there. Wemay be joined by Anna from Free
League. And I am encouraging herto come and join us because I
thought, obviously, you need themoney because you're a starving
artist.

Dave (37:22):
Yeah. Yes.

Matthew (37:23):
But if she were to join us, then that would free me up
to maybe run some Toto gamesand, talk about Toto at the,
Yeah. Podcast zone or stuff likethat. So, I thought I might
broach the subject with thepodcast zone organizers. Now in

(37:44):
anticipation that she mightjoin.

Dave (37:45):
I think, our our friend, John Dodd seems to be involved
in that. So I saw somethingliterally a day or 2 ago about
opening up the podcast zone forpeople to put their names down,
you know, and and and go along.So good timing, I think is that.

(38:06):
So, now is the time to have achat with him. Yep.

Matthew (38:09):
Cool. Cool. That would

Dave (38:10):
be good. That would be good. Yeah. Excellent. Cool.
Well, that that was quite a lotof world of gaming.

Matthew (38:18):
Yeah. That was. And,

Dave (38:20):
we've

Matthew (38:20):
got more news still. We've got news from the old
west.

Dave (38:23):
We have news from the old west. Yeehaw. That was it.
That's the news from the oldwest. So,

Matthew (38:32):
yeah.

Dave (38:33):
Yeah. So, you know, we're we are now 11 days in. I think
maybe 12, possibly. 12 days intothe campaign. We are nudging up
to the 20,000 stretch goal.
We've just been like sort ofhanging around there for a
little while. We obviously weobviously like being, you know,
19,700 and something. Yeah. Sowe are we are nudging the 20,000

(38:57):
stretch goal. You know, we havehit the doldrums a little bit as
as we expected.

Matthew (39:02):
Mid campaign doldrums. Yeah.

Dave (39:04):
Mid mid campaign doldrums. But we were saying that actually
with all our efforts at thestart, and all the great support
we got right at the beginning,the really fast start we had,
and and things like, you know,Free League and others
supporting us online, and thenTabletop Scotland. I think we've
held off the doldrums for longerthan perhaps we should have done
or could have done. But this isan inevitable thing that was

(39:26):
gonna happen. So that's fine.
You know, we've got 18 days togo. You know, I I said to a
number of people that if beforethe campaign someone had said,
you know, we'll give you $16 outof bitten their arms off there
and then, and have been

Matthew (39:40):
Yeah.

Dave (39:40):
Deliriously happy. So, yeah, the whole thing is is more
successful than I'd ever kind ofdreamed it would be. So yeah.
And we've got 80 days

Matthew (39:49):
to go. Not that we ever dreamed it would be, but
because, you know, we have gotstretch goals that go all the
way up here. So

Dave (39:56):
Realistically dreamed it would be then. I I

Matthew (39:58):
Realistically dreamed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As as as good
as the best we were dreaming of,I think is possibly the the way
to describe it.
Yeah. And definitely not, as badas I I I the day before we
opened it, my son, Tom, askedme, you know, what would make me

(40:20):
happy about the first day. Mhmm.And I I thought, oh, god. What
would make me happy about thefirst day?
Obviously, funding would make mehappy the first day, but that's
not really very likely. No. SoI, you know, I put out some
number. I said, you know, I'd bevery unhappy if we only had 40
backers by the end of the 1stday. I'd probably be quite happy

(40:41):
if we had a 100 backers by theend of the 1st day.
And I was I was trying to pullfigures out of Finnair for, you
know, where is where is wheredoes the happiness happen?

Dave (40:51):
Yeah.

Matthew (40:51):
Luckily, we didn't have to worry about that because we
crashed our, crashed straightthrough our target price and got
fully funded within 5 hours onthe 1st day. So, obviously, I
was pretty ecstatic from thatpoint on.

Dave (41:06):
Absolutely. Same here. And I I and all and all the way
along, I was expecting us to hita brick wall, you know, which
Yeah. You know, as I said, we'vehit the doldrums now, but going
from 8,000 to 19,000, I thought,okay. Where where does this
stop?
Is it gonna stop at 10, 11, 12?You know? And it just and it
just kept going. And, yeah. Soyeah.

(41:29):
The the the the yeah. I'mpleased.

Matthew (41:33):
We we are happy.

Dave (41:34):
There is nothing. Yeah. There is nothing that can stop
me being happy about how weperformed.

Matthew (41:40):
There are other things going on in the background as
well. You have been reorganizingthe text because, of course, you
know Yep. Now we're actuallyfunded. We've gotta think about
getting this in

Dave (41:49):
Actually in order.

Matthew (41:50):
In the Yeah. So the last read through we'd had, we'd
thought about combining 2 of thechapters, and, you've now done
that, I think. We've alsoobviously put in the chapters
that you'd we'd already written,but we we'd made them contingent
on stretch goals. So

Dave (42:06):
Yep.

Matthew (42:07):
They now all fit in. We're looking at the artwork
some more. We've got plenty moreart to commission. We're about
halfway through though on whatwe've done so far. But we've got
more up now specifically tocommission for the judges'
screen, the GM screen, which wasa stretch goal that we have,
made.
We had thought about doing itbefore the campaign, but we're

(42:28):
slightly warned off it, and Ithink that was the right advice
at the time. But now we're backon there. So yeah. Yeah. We're
we're firing on all cylinders,and hopefully, we will keep to
our promised target of deliverynext May, whatever happens in
the next few weeks.

(42:50):
And the exciting thing again isthe very last day of the
campaign, I will be in Essen atthe at, the big Essen spiel.

Dave (42:58):
Cool.

Matthew (42:59):
So I'm gonna take some leaflets there and see if we can
get a last minute boost ofGerman backers at Essen.

Dave (43:05):
Yeah. Because that's, so that's the Thursday 3rd. Is that
right?

Matthew (43:11):
That starts on Thursday 3rd, which is, I think, the last
day of our campaign. I think wefinish at around 4 o'clock on
that day.

Dave (43:21):
Let's just hang on. So 1, 2, 3, 4.

Matthew (43:25):
Counting. That's the thing that our podcast listeners
love.

Dave (43:29):
So, actually, if my if my calculations are correct, we
would finish, I think, at oh,no. It is. It's 4 o'clock on
3rd. Yeah. So you've basicallygot until mid afternoon on 3rd
October.
Yep. Yeah. Cool. Cool. Worthworth a a final push.

(43:50):
Get some some lovely Germanbackers, to join us at the last
minute. That would be very good.

Matthew (43:56):
Yes. That'd be nice.

Dave (43:58):
I mean, yeah. I don't know what your plan is for, for
Essen, but whether you could getthat afternoon, that morning off
from the stand.

Matthew (44:06):
Well, I yeah. I've gotta talk it over with Anna,
obviously. Yeah. She's the boss.

Dave (44:11):
Yep. Yep.

Matthew (44:13):
But even an hour off at lunch you know, in the morning,
an early lunch, as it were,would, let me scout around all
the role playing area. I mean,it's it's more of a board game
show than a role playing show.But,

Dave (44:26):
But it's a big show, though. So

Matthew (44:28):
But it's the biggest show in the world. So Is

Dave (44:32):
it bigger than Gen Con?

Matthew (44:33):
Should get 1 or 2 customers. I think it's bigger
than Gen Con in terms of,numbers and in terms of, floor
space.

Dave (44:41):
Okay. Cool.

Matthew (44:42):
Yeah. Well

Dave (44:43):
well, yeah. You've you've you've got a lot of walking to
do in 2 hours then, mate.

Matthew (44:48):
Yeah. You've never been, have you? You don't quite
No.

Dave (44:51):
I haven't been in a lesson yet. No.

Matthew (44:55):
Well, we'll see. We'll see what we can do. But, yeah. I
might come and fetch a bannerfrom you if I can persuade Anna
to let me have for that firstmorning. Right.
Okay. I think I understand.Yeah. I've got a banner sticking
up.

Dave (45:07):
It's worth it's worth asking.

Matthew (45:09):
Worth. Always worth asking.

Dave (45:11):
She can only say no.

Matthew (45:13):
Yeah. She could only say no. Yeah.

Dave (45:15):
Brilliant.

Matthew (45:16):
Yeah. I say so I think that's probably all our old west
news that's fit to print.

Dave (45:21):
Yeah. But, just rest assured we are cracking on. And,
you know, we are, you know,doing our utmost to deliver on
the schedule that we've, we'vewe've, promised. So, but also we
will we will be very good atkeeping people informed. So I
think we're very very keen.
And I think some people havealready commented on how how

(45:42):
good we've been at responding toquestions and comments on face
on Facebook. On

Matthew (45:48):
Kickstarter. On the Kickstarter.

Dave (45:51):
So, and that, you know, that that is a trend that we
will continue. So, I mean,communication is something we
will be all

Chris V (45:58):
over.

Matthew (45:58):
So if you haven't backed it yet, why not? If
you're listening to this, unbat.And if your, grandmother hasn't
backed it yet

Dave (46:07):
Why not?

Matthew (46:08):
Ask her to explain to you why she hasn't. Yeah. Right.
Shall we move on?

Dave (46:14):
Yes.

Matthew (46:15):
Let's give another Kickstarter campaign a bit of
love, shall we, Dave?

Dave (46:19):
Yep. Let's do that.

Matthew (46:22):
So we had a great chat with Chris Vermoren about
terminal state, and here it is.So we have a special guest in
the hammam, today. We've gotChris Vermaerin, who is the
creative mind behind, I guess,our rival Kickstarter at the
moment, terminal state. Chris,welcome.

Chris V (46:45):
Hi. Welcome, Chris. Thank you. And don't put me
rival, if that's the case,you're you're you almost knocked
me out already, but that'salright.

Matthew (46:54):
No. No. We're we're we're here. Let the the the
Kickstarter tide raises all theboats. So, so we're we're here
to give you a bit of a messageboost.

Chris V (47:04):
Good.

Matthew (47:04):
So, Chris, welcome. And as we traditionally do, I'd like
as a new guest, I'd like to askyou all about your life in
gaming. Where did you start?

Chris V (47:20):
Oh, wow. So I'm old When people can't see you, so I
yep. I started, in middle schoollike many of us with D and D. I
actually have my red dice redbox dice still, the original
ones that you had, you know, usethe crayon to fill in. They're
pretty much round now, but it'sstill not the original.

(47:40):
I actually brought some diceover when I started up here in
case we wanted to roll anything,but and I found those. I have
them in a cigar box of allthings. So

Matthew (47:48):
That's nice.

Chris V (47:50):
Gaming since, you know, early eighties and started with
D and D, did a lot of rifts withfriends in the end, and
Streetfighter, went through aworld of darkness phase like so
many of us do. Cyberpunk 2020,obviously, once I got into
Cyberpunk. Some shatter runthough, the early shatter runs
were broken, so that was fun.

Dave (48:12):
This sounds exact you could be saying my life in
gaming. It's always exactly

Matthew (48:17):
I was I was actually about to say that.

Dave (48:19):
Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew (48:20):
Timeline works out. And and Dave is a big well, was was,
it has to be said, a big,cyberpunk 2020 fan. I think

Chris V (48:31):
Yeah.

Matthew (48:31):
You you've played a bit recently, and you weren't
enjoying as much, Dave. Am Iright?

Dave (48:36):
It's Cyberpunk Red. Yeah. It was too it was too combat
heavy, and the combats took toolong for me. And I I think, you
know, the the younger me when Iused to run loads and loads of
2020, Kinda love the combat, butit did I don't remember it being
as long as it felt in Yeah. Thenew version.
So I I I didn't quite enjoy thatas much.

Chris V (48:56):
Yeah. I was not as impressed with RED as I was
hoping it was because I reallybecause I love Cyberpunk 20. I
mean,

Dave (49:02):
20 20

Chris V (49:03):
is huge part of my my childhood.

Dave (49:06):
Yep. Me too. Yeah.

Matthew (49:07):
Yep. So we got to we got

Chris V (49:09):
Shadow Man. Played. Yep.

Matthew (49:12):
And

Chris V (49:12):
then then got into, you know, various weird I don't
can't really me. You know, TMNT,which is another Playdium
adjacent Marvel role playinggame, the original one, because
we were I was a comic pack fanfor a long time as well. And
then got into y z e. I gotMutant Year 0 just because it
looked cool. And then

Matthew (49:32):
the Forbidden Lands thing Dave, he

Dave (49:34):
is you. We are clones because

Chris V (49:38):
Then I got, Forbidden Lands when the Kickstarter was
and the rate main reason Ibacked that was one of the
stretch goals because I Iactually checked, you know, so
it's 5 years ago, I can'tbelieve it, was to make it OGL.
And Uh-huh. I always had Ialways had the idea that turning
a magic system into hackingwould make for an easy way to

(49:58):
make cyberpunk games, you know,cyberpunk game, you know, more
fluid rather than having it thisown own subgame like it is in so
many things or hand wave in somany other things.

Dave (50:08):
Yeah.

Chris V (50:09):
So that was my goal, and it was I I cut back, and
I'll just turn it real quick.That was, you know, 4 years ago,
and we're finally here withrewriting the game. But if I had
released this, it's probablyreally, like, version 4 by now
by how many times I've prettymuch rewritten from scratch the
the game. Partly free league'sfault for, you know, bringing
out new dice mechanics all thetime that I'm, oh, that's much

(50:31):
better idea. Yeah.

Matthew (50:34):
Yeah. I think we we we have to thank the guy whose idea
it was to, get

Dave (50:39):
Oh, sharp, Matthew. Just You can tell where this
conversation is going becauseMatthew did suggest that idea to
them back in the day. Although,I suspect they were going to do
it anyway, but Matthew loves totake the credit when he can. So
but yes.

Matthew (50:54):
So yes. So so you wanted that that's a very
interesting concept you said.You thought

Chris V (51:02):
Mhmm.

Matthew (51:02):
If we could turn a magic system into hacking, we
could solve. I'm I'm now gonnaoverlay my own problem with it.
I have a problem with Cyberpunk,which is, somebody's the hacker,
and everybody else has to sitaround for about half an hour
while the hacker does theirthing, which all takes a couple
of seconds in game time, butsitting around the table seems

(51:26):
to take 2 hours just like combatmode.

Dave (51:29):
Or or you have to find somewhere to hide the hacker
when you go into somewhere, sothey just wanna get killed by a
passing guard. Yeah. And thenthey and then they kind of sit
out of the combat. So yeah.

Matthew (51:39):
So yeah. No. It it so Yeah.

Chris V (51:41):
That was the main one of the main things I wanted to
solve. Yeah.

Dave (51:44):
Yeah.

Matthew (51:44):
So so how tell us, how have you solved this with magic?

Chris V (51:48):
Well, yeah. Hopefully, I've solved it. Again, it's it's
iterated from there. It's notreally fully based like it's not
like the magic system forBritain lands. That's, you know,
where the concept came from.
It's come its own thing now, ofcourse. But in terminal state,
and that's one of the reasons Icall the, ServerPunko now
because it's more based on somenewer con everyone can hack.

(52:08):
Everyone. Okay.

Matthew (52:10):
Right.

Chris V (52:11):
Everybody's wired. You you don't have a deck. There was
a genetic cyber, you know, deckthat was released by a,
actually, anarchist group whensomebody was developed. So
everybody's been geneticallynano rewired to be able to hack.
So everybody can hack.
Everybody can help hack them. Sohackers just but the goal you

(52:33):
know, the the 4 stats interminal stages like most y z
games. So anybody can shoot justlike any other game. Anybody can
punch just like any other game.Anybody can try social stuff
just like any other game.
So anybody can hack, and that'sbased on the, you know, the tech
skill. And then hackers arebetter at it just like any but,
you know, like somebody who inmy game, an active is the

(52:54):
shooter guys are better atshooting than the normal guy,
but anybody can pick up a gun totry and shoot. So and then
anybody can help just like anyother skill in,

Matthew (53:02):
you

Chris V (53:02):
know, a YZ game. You can add on. So not only the
hacker is hacking. There isactually, hackathons, you know,
the term I I'm using in this towhere you you sometimes you
require help to do it. You needso many successes, kinda like a
pyramid test in some of mygames.
You need so many success. Youneed other people to help you to
get through this thing, be ableto Right. Take take down
something major.

Matthew (53:24):
So that's actually an interesting thing. We'll we'll
come back to you, I will say,about that. You talk about this
being the cyberpunk of now, notthe cyberpunk of 20, 30 years
ago. Yep. And, of course, nowhas changed in that, you know,
we see groups like anonymousand, you know, people don't
they're not lone hackersanymore, are they?

(53:44):
Real real hackers get togetherwhat? Get together virtually, at
various, in groups. So they dostuff in groups. So that is an
interesting concept to add into,cyberpunk. Sorry.
But I interrupted. You wereabout to say, but also

Chris V (54:01):
don't remember where exactly, but to build off of
that, the the cyberpunk and nowis hackers also to bring them
into the group. So everything islittle mesh networks rather than
being a there is a large overnet over everything, but packing
that's virtually impossible.That's where you really have to
get in the hacksaw. So when yougo, you need to be there, and

(54:23):
you have to be on the localnetwork really to so it it you
have to hack in person ratherthan having a hacker sitting at
home doing nothing. You have tobe there.
You have to be there as a group.It brings them more as part of
the group. Also, because it's,you know, the future of now
since everybody can hack, thingshave gotten back to where most
security things have gotten moreanalog again. One of the

(54:45):
character classes of couriersbecause there's you know, people
deliver things on paper becauseyou can't hack the paper yet.
You try and steal it frompeople.
You locks on, you know, most ofthe big, you know, rich people's
houses are gonna be old analoglocks because, you know,
everybody can hack a lock easierthan picking a lock. You know?
Things so things havebacktracked some just as Okay.

Dave (55:05):
That's an interesting idea. I like that.

Chris V (55:07):
A callback, yeah, as well.

Dave (55:09):
So so I was just gonna say the I like the idea that you've
got there of of the, you know,the the everyone can hack, so
the hacker becomes a much moreimportant, you know, integral
part of the group. Did you wannasay a little bit more about how
the hacking actually works then?So if you're if you're in a
group and you're trying to hackinto something, how, how you do
that?

Chris V (55:29):
It's also yeah. So it made it so I'm using the dice
pool, but hacking general Imean, so I'm using step type,
but dice hacking actually goesinto ends up going into step
dice pool.

Dave (55:42):
Okay.

Chris V (55:43):
So systems have what I call SSP system security
protocol points, and that'stheir pool of dice. Mhmm. And
that with that, they can putsome towards their firewall,
some towards having a sys ops,some towards you know, they're
defensive. So you so you justbuild it out out of your dice
pool instead. And then when youhack in, just like anything
else, you only need one successto get in.

(56:04):
So you're in, and you can startdoing your first action, but
then they've got all their theirpool left to try and kick you
back out, fight you. So onceyou're in there, it becomes like
a a form of combat. So it wasthe goal. So it's not like it's
not hard to get into a system.It's hard to stay there and get
anything done because thenyou're fighting against it, and
they can and if you glitch youknow, so if you roll a critical

(56:28):
fail, basically, you know, inthis, then that can up up the
system's AI is one of the sideeffects that can happen.
It can call the system thesystem daemon, which you don't
want because those are those canactually have genetic code as
well. They're, like, reallymessed up. So yeah.

Dave (56:44):
And and and in in those kind of, like, as you call them
in 2020, the run, presumablythen you can have a run where
everyone is running in it. Allthe characters can run
regardless of how good or howbad they are.

Chris V (56:56):
Yep. And

Dave (56:56):
so it becomes a different environment where everyone gets
to play. Yeah. That's

Chris V (57:00):
cool. Yeah.

Dave (57:01):
Yeah. Yeah.

Chris V (57:01):
Because you got the social guys, but then just like
in in the most ways, you got thecommand thing. So there may be
more of a support in general,but you got the command ability.
You've got a taunt ability justlike any other one. So you
they've got abilities that canhelp everyone as well. And or
you can, of course, try andavoid combat altogether and
manipulate people into calmingdown.

Dave (57:21):
So Doing what you want. Yeah. Exactly.

Matthew (57:23):
Social hacking as they call it. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris V (57:27):
Yeah. And hackers, there's actually 3 different
types that I did, do a throwbackto Chatteron. There's the
hijackers are what I'm calling,who are like the rigors. So they
focus on more on drones becausedrones, again, being the future
of now are a huge part of thegame. Yep.
And then there's puppeteers whocan actually hack people. Again,
since everybody's wired, you canhack into people. And that's

(57:47):
where it gets a little moremagic y. That's most of the
puppeteers apps, as I call it,you know, call them, are based
more on the Forbidden Landspells, especially the the mind
control y type one. So thatthat's in the nod back to that.
And then all the hackers' appsare named after, like, medially
evilly things like sword, youknow, as you know, how you

(58:08):
attack in is your app forattacking and shield and
sentinel and hydra and thingslike that. So so Mhmm. It's
another nod back to the idea ofthe being based on a fantasy
magic system.

Matthew (58:21):
So So I remember when Forbidden Lands was introduced,
of course, we only knew the d 6dice pool then, and Forbidden
Lands effectively introducedmagic into the world with d 8
and d tens and d 12.

Chris V (58:37):
The artifact dice. The art artifact dice. Yeah. Yep.

Matthew (58:40):
You've kind of turned that on its head, and you said,
right. Okay. Meat space, We'redoing this with step dice like
Blade Runner, like Twilight2,000. But Cyberspace or
whatever you call it in yourworld is is back in the dice
pool system. So now the d sixare the magic ones.

Chris V (58:59):
Yep. Yep.

Matthew (59:00):
I love that.

Chris V (59:01):
Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, the the the pools instead of it.

Matthew (59:05):
So how do you, so I'm just thinking, though, if I'm a,
you know, a hacker of some sort,a puppeteer or something like
that, And I'm when I do mysocial hacking, when I'm trying
to convince somebody of a thing,I'm rolling step dice. How do I
calculate the my magic pool whenI'm when I'm getting into

(59:28):
cyberspace.

Chris V (59:29):
Oh, yeah. So you still use your step the the step die
for your attacks. The, die poolis really just the SSP, the
defensive ones.

Matthew (59:40):
Oh, right.

Chris V (59:41):
Yeah. Yeah. So your stuff is just still general. And
if you look at the math, youknow, I hopefully, I'm factoring
it well, but the tables are youknow, the step that I the the
swing on them was a littledifferent, but, you know, you so
the base level of, you know, thebase level SSP is should be
relatively decent, you know, onyou know, if it's an easy
system, it should be pretty, youknow, a low pool. So it's easy
to easier to get into, and theycan't do a much as much against

(01:00:04):
you and things like that.
So it's pretty Right. Prettyeasy to balance the 2 from a
base

Matthew (01:00:11):
I don't wanna I don't wanna leave that list as a
straight end. So people use stepdice, systems use dice pool.

Chris V (01:00:19):
Correct.

Matthew (01:00:20):
Got it. Right. True. Right. Yep.
Loving it. Yep. Loving it. Yeah.

Dave (01:00:23):
So is is there is there a way in the game that you can be
trying to, in the real world,socially influence someone
whilst one of your mates in thecyber world is trying to hack
into their Oh, yeah. Wetware?

Chris V (01:00:35):
Yeah. Yeah. Everybody else can do, you know, whatever
they wanna do as normal. Youknow? Hacking is just basically
another form of combat.
It's just the, you know Yeah.The tech tech version of combat.
It's like you're attacking thesystems and you're you're or
you're hacking into the camerasor whatever you're doing to you
know? There there there are somebase level things you can do

(01:00:56):
really easily. And then ifyou're attacking the actual
system stuff to really takecontrol, that's where it gets
into the step dye stuff.
That's I mean, the that coolstuff when you're going into a
system.

Dave (01:01:07):
Right. Cool.

Matthew (01:01:10):
Cool. Loving it. And, so we've talked a little bit
about the sort of characters youcan have. You've got different
archetypes and and things likethat. Mhmm.

Dave (01:01:23):
But what's

Matthew (01:01:24):
the what is the future of now like? Where when is when
is the future of noweffectively? How far away from
now are we?

Chris V (01:01:36):
It's 2089 is where the game is set, and that is
actually funnily, I didn't knowthis when I started I named the
game Terminal State years agowhen I had the concept. When
looking around, there was an oldmutant year 0 for the one that
was more cyberpunking. I can'twhat is it? Naya or whatever
version of it was one of theolder zeroes. There was a module

(01:02:00):
that somebody did calledterminal state, which I found
later, which is why and it wasset in it was set in 20 889.
So I'm like, yeah. I'm gonnathrow back to that just for the
the historical value of that.Oh, cool. So but set in 2089.
It's a kind of a point oflighty.
There's a term the term it'scalled terminal state because
there's terminals that go up tothe near orbital ring. So

(01:02:22):
there's 3 rings that are incircle, which where all the
corpse and the rich people liveand are used for transport to
get around the world.

Dave (01:02:30):
Mhmm.

Chris V (01:02:30):
Such So there's specific terminals and specific
areas. The around the terminalsare huge sprawls. The main
setting is the hub, which is theman purely man made. It's in
since I'm American, it's in,like, Colorado, Wyoming, you
know, middle of nowhere. Theybuilt this giant, you know,

(01:02:52):
terminal, this huge city, and itcovers almost, you know, 3
states.
It's not quite, you know,Gibsonian sprawl from, you know,
the entire sea eastern seaboardlike in a Neuromancer, but it's
they're these things are big. Soand there's I gotta I can't
remember how many there aretotal now. I think there's,

(01:03:14):
like, 20 or 30 main terminalsbetween the 3 rings, and one's
in right on the equator. One'skinda in the northern
hemisphere, and one's in thesouthern hemisphere. Yep.
Right.

Matthew (01:03:27):
Yeah. The rings, you mean?

Chris V (01:03:28):
Active. Yep. Yep. The rings in space, then the
terminals go up from so there's,like, terminals in Australia and
Brazil and Europe and, you know,Japan. There's a whole history
around there.
There's not one in New Yorkbecause New York got nuked in my
campaign. So everybody setseverything in New York, so I get
I get

Dave (01:03:47):
tired of

Matthew (01:03:48):
it. Yes. Yeah. I love it.

Chris V (01:03:50):
It's where the first terminal was supposed to be
built, and then it got hit by aa mass driver attack. And when I
was researching about it,there's a nuclear power plant in
new low, lower New York. Andthese terminals, you know, go
all the way up, so they're huge.So when I got hit, it fell into
nuclear. So New York is hit by amass driver, asteroid throw, and

(01:04:10):
then it got, you know, a falloutfrom a nuclear power plant.
So it's just New York is awasteland. Sorry, movers. I
wanted wanted to be different. Ididn't want so New Jersey is the
new New York.

Matthew (01:04:25):
No. I just I love it. I I I love that name.

Chris V (01:04:28):
Line up sorry. Go ahead. New York is the lineup
where

Matthew (01:04:32):
I wanted the rings. Gotta have a line, haven't you?

Chris V (01:04:34):
It's like Yep. Yep. Yeah. It's like

Dave (01:04:35):
you're not too high?

Chris V (01:04:36):
So it's like New Jersey is where it has to be. So why is
New York not the main one? Youkinda made it the sprawl big
enough, but I'm like, no. That'smore fun.

Matthew (01:04:45):
I like that as well that if you like, the main
terminal is, in what mightotherwise be known as flyover
country. Yes. So so you'rereally changing the polls. And,
of course, one of the big thingsabout Cyberpunk is, the classes,
and I noticed that you,advertise 4 different types of

(01:05:07):
humanity, but 6 social statuses.Can you unpack those?

Chris V (01:05:11):
Okay. Social statuses or humanities or both? What are
we?

Matthew (01:05:16):
The state social status. I I mean, we might come
back to humanity types.

Dave (01:05:22):
I'm quite interested in what Fabricant, Ringer, and Neo
might be, so we'll come backwe'll come to that in a minute.

Matthew (01:05:26):
We'll come back to those.

Chris V (01:05:27):
Yeah. Social statuses are exile, which is your Mad
Maxie, Judge Dreddie, you know,when the when you get sent out
into the wastelands because,again, there's

Matthew (01:05:38):
a

Chris V (01:05:38):
point of light. So anything around here is called
the our DMZs between them orwell, I I changed it to to so
since it's in there, doldrums,spelled with a z at the end.

Dave (01:05:48):
Oh, yeah. Okay.

Chris V (01:05:50):
And, again, so since Terminal State, I'm a huge front
242 fan as a as a trump 342song. Doldrums is in there. I'm
like, it all ties together. Ilike weird synchronicity things
like that. But so you got theexiles.
So that's when you're kickedout. Or if you're born outside
of a a archoplex, which are thewhat is around the main areas
around the terminals. So it'sthe Portman of archaeology and

(01:06:13):
complex. So they're just a biggrouping of archaeologists.
You're in exile or if you getkicked out for you know, to you
can piss off the corpse or youself exile yourself because you
don't wanna be involved withthem.
Then there's which this one's athrowback to 2020, which some
people may not like. There's copas a status. Mhmm.

Matthew (01:06:34):
Alright. Yep. Yeah.

Chris V (01:06:35):
Yeah. Punk punk is a status. Citizen is a status.
Corp and elite. And elite arethe, you know, the really rich,
and each one comes with theirbenefit.
Social status is the only partof the character creation that
you have to roll because it alsodetermines your base reputation,

(01:06:56):
and reputation is whatdetermines your credit. And
that's how the all the buyingstuff in the game works. There's
no money system. It's a purely acredit score, which is the a, b,
c, d, from, you know, the stepdie, and that's based on your
reputation. And since that but Idid since I know a lot of people
might be not wanna make a corpor a cop, you have to roll, but

(01:07:20):
you can downgrade.
So you can you don't like whatyou can. You can you can you
can't upgrade, and you can'tchoose because I don't want
people ever ever really wantingto be elite because they get
more money to start with, morecred, more rep. But so you can
suffer from a COP, you end up inexile.

Dave (01:07:36):
Yeah. So

Matthew (01:07:37):
Oh, what? Like Mad Max, I guess?

Chris V (01:07:39):
Yeah. So yeah. Or and Judge Dredd, you know, when you
get sentenced, then I'll send aso and it you could either make
it part of your your history,which is kinda cool. So, you
know, I rolled a cop, but then Ichose to be in exile or was
exiled, or you can just decideyou were in exile. So adds a
little more.
I like stuff like that where youcan add more flavor. Just in

Matthew (01:07:58):
the chance so you've got 66 classes. You roll for
whichever, status you are. Isthat on a d 6?

Chris V (01:08:08):
That is a d 10.

Matthew (01:08:12):
Right. And because And m x table. You have too many
elites.

Dave (01:08:16):
Elites.

Chris V (01:08:16):
Yeah. An elite actually is 11 plus, so you have to be,
some the your humanity typegives you a bonus to your role.
So you have to be either a Neoor a human or a, actually, Neo
or a human to even be in theleast. You can't be a fabricant
or a ringer and start an elite.Yeah.

Matthew (01:08:37):
Right. Brilliant. Which brings us neatly to date
Absolutely. To know more about

Chris V (01:08:42):
this stuff. Perfect. Yep. Perfect question. Yeah.
So fabricants are sent SapientAI. I use Sapient purposely
instead of Sentient because,actually, technically correct.
And my brother is an Englishmajor and I don't have any about
it.

Matthew (01:08:59):
I need to get geeky about

Dave (01:09:00):
it. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris V (01:09:01):
Yeah. But it's so if you the one that AI gains
sapience, it's it has to legallyhas to, register its code and
get put into a robot body. Sothat's a fabricant. Right. And
robot is almost ever all techin, this game is nano organic in
some way.

(01:09:22):
So they're not exactly sothey're not replicants, but so
they don't look humanoid onpurpose. They look more robotic.
But you're not exactly just, youknow, wires and gears. There's a
little more to it. So

Dave (01:09:35):
Yeah. I was gonna say, are they obviously obviously robot
in one sense or another? Andthey are. Yeah.

Chris V (01:09:40):
They're yeah. They're made purposefully not to. And
now you can, if you're asentient AI Sapien AI, put
yourself in a humanoid body, butthat's against the law. So that
but that is something you can doas a starting character. If you
do that, then then if you getcaught, you're in trouble.
So it is an option, though. Thenthere's the human, of course,

(01:10:02):
which is pretty straightforward.Neos are kind of like, meths
from, got my brain just turnedto all the carbon, kind of,

Matthew (01:10:13):
in

Chris V (01:10:14):
terms of their their humanoid intelligence is put in
the new body. But unlike that,these are cadavers that are
either genetically altered tolook like you, usually made to
look younger because for richpeople to put themselves in, or
so there's 3 options on those.There's you in a new version of

(01:10:34):
you, you and just another body,like, more like altered carbon.
And then what was the I don'teven remember the 3rd now. Oh,
just a one that looks oh, soit's modified, but it's not,

(01:10:56):
like, exactly like it looksreally close to you, but, you
know, they started with, youknow, it's not fully, you know,
you.
It's like they try, and it looksyou know, you'd pass as you, but
it's not like it's a exactlyyou. So it's like Right. Kinda
like the the cheaper version.You went for the the the the the
downgrade. And they yeah.
It is the cheapest version ofthem, and cost wise, it's, like,

(01:11:18):
even cheaper than getting a, youknow, a just a normal, you know,
body that wasn't you. But, yeah,I just thought it would be odd
for the rich people to beputting themselves into
cadavers.

Matthew (01:11:30):
I quite like that.

Chris V (01:11:31):
I was

Matthew (01:11:32):
actually using Yep. The lower classes effectively. Yeah.
Wearing them. Yep.
Yeah. I'm all for this.

Chris V (01:11:38):
And then it makes a whole industry for, you know,
people, you know, bumping peopleoff to, you know, sell the
bodies and kinda mad but while Iwas at, I was in, Max Headroom.
Right? They had a whole

Matthew (01:11:49):
Yeah.

Chris V (01:11:50):
Whole subplot of, you know, the body snatchers.
Uh-huh. And then ringers are,genetic clones. They were
originally made to build therings. They were a labor force.
They come in 4 casts, whichgives them so that's a kinda
like a a sub. They have theirown little sub bonuses based on
the cast that all, hopefully,balance out well. They seem to

(01:12:12):
in place, so I'm putting it. Andthey just recently, once the
last ring was finished, gainedindependence because they were,
you know, basically a laborforce servants. They didn't have
any rights, and they just gainedindependence, got their patent
from the company that owned it,and now have made a mass mass
exodus down to the planet.

(01:12:34):
And, you know, there's so ifyou're a ringer, there's, you
know, 100 to 1,000 of of you outthere.

Matthew (01:12:41):
Mhmm. So

Chris V (01:12:43):
I like

Matthew (01:12:43):
it. That's interesting. That Yeah. Kinda like replicants
and and Yeah.

Chris V (01:12:47):
So they're a little more they're the most replicant
y one. Exactly.

Matthew (01:12:52):
And then this is this is brilliant. And as as you're
talking, I'm flicking throughthe quick start here, which, am
I right in saying this isnormally, a few dollars, but if
you go to it via the kick startpage, then it's,

Chris V (01:13:09):
it was. Yeah. Was I put it up for free for a free RPG
day

Matthew (01:13:16):
Right. Yeah.

Chris V (01:13:17):
Here in June. And then I left it for a while, and I was
getting close enough tokickstart. I'm like, I'm just
gonna so now it's just free.

Matthew (01:13:23):
Right. Cool. Yeah.

Chris V (01:13:24):
The the the

Matthew (01:13:25):
lovely free kick start. 70 odd pages.

Chris V (01:13:28):
Yep.

Matthew (01:13:29):
Nicely designed. Is it time? And just to have a look at
how we're doing. Yeah. It may betime to talk about how you put
it together.
So you've thought a lot aboutthis world. We've talked about
this being like the the 4th or5th iteration Yeah. Of of this
rule set. I'm loving I'm lovingthe detail in the background of

(01:13:49):
this already feels verybelievable world Yeah. And kind
of interesting concepts that I'dlike to play with.
I I'm just having a littlememory problem on my computer,
not my own head. It's just and,I'm gonna quit that. Sorry. I

(01:14:12):
just don't I don't want mycomputer to crash with Yeah.
While we're talking.
And so so, yeah, you've got youyou've thought all this stuff.
How have you gone about turningit into this very nicely
designed quick quick start, andI'm

Chris V (01:14:32):
Thank you.

Matthew (01:14:32):
Shipping. Nicely designed hardback when, when
people back it.

Chris V (01:14:39):
I don't think so.

Matthew (01:14:39):
Who's your team? Tell us about your team.

Chris V (01:14:42):
Me. I'm my team. No. I brought my brother's my
brother's the editor. I'm theteam.
I've been a graphics design Iwas a graphic designer for
years, then I did web design.I'm I'm now one of the cogs on
management, but I've been it'smy I've we got our first Mac in
85, and I've just done graphicdesign on the side forever. I'd

(01:15:05):
I have a degree in advertising.I don't have a degree in this,
but it's what I've always done.It's been my my passion forever
is just graphic design.
So Right. I've been putting itall together.

Matthew (01:15:16):
Graphic design, but the illustrations, where they come
from?

Chris V (01:15:21):
Those ones in the quick start are stock. A lot of the
ones in actually the main bookare are stock, but I manipulate
them heavily. I think stock, ifyou used well, is perfectly
fine.

Matthew (01:15:30):
Mhmm.

Chris V (01:15:31):
Use a a lot of people probably know Grand Failure,
Tithy, Lewa Thong, I think isthe name. We've been out there
in a lot of cyberpunk stuff,uses it here and there and
stuff. And they've got they'vegot a lot of art. And, again, if
you manipulate it well and I'mgoing more for field and and
exact represent lot of like, allmy

Matthew (01:15:52):
Yeah.

Chris V (01:15:52):
My all my gears all my gears silhouettes because one of
the main cons I didn't want thisto be a gear gear porn, gear
management game like so manycyberpunk games are. So Yeah. My
weapon table is litter themodern weapons, I think there's
10, maybe 8. I don't reallyremember off right off the top
of my head. And it's acustomization system.

(01:16:14):
There's all kinds of add ons youcan add. There's different
projectile types to buy so youcan build your weapon that you
want rather than having thisespecially in YZE where the the
minutiae between the weapons isso minor half the time.

Matthew (01:16:27):
Yeah. I

Chris V (01:16:28):
mean, t two k, they're trying to rep, you know,
replicate them, you know, almosta military strategy game. So
there's a lot of weapons, but ifyou look at them, most of them
are very similar.

Matthew (01:16:37):
Yeah.

Chris V (01:16:37):
So it's not the stats. So when it comes to look and
feel, then that's customizationthat's making it, you know and
then that's on you to makedecide what it wants to look at.
In some way.

Matthew (01:16:47):
It's a bit like, feng shui where all the guns pretty
much do the same amount ofdamage. Yeah. Yeah. But if you
describe them in gun porn terms,then you get a bit of a bonus.
It's I always enjoy it there.

Chris V (01:16:59):
Yeah. Doesn't quite have that. But, yeah, there's
there's the the base differentones have some different levels,
and then your add ons dodifferent stuff. And it's just
it's more about the the the feelyou want for it than anything
else.

Dave (01:17:12):
No. I like that. I like I like very much the idea of
customizing your own your owngear

Chris V (01:17:17):
Yep.

Dave (01:17:17):
In that way. Yeah. That's cool.

Chris V (01:17:18):
And then it was stretch goals, but, you know, with the
way campaign's doing, they'reprobably gonna end up in there
anyway because I like them.There's there's random tables to
roll up all these things too. Soyou can pick your stuff, but
then I have a whole random tableto just you randomly roll up and
see what you get, and you couldend up with something fun.

Matthew (01:17:38):
So my idea, so at the moment, just a kind of point by
system, you too. Oh, no. We'rerolling things out with you. So
we're still rolling our classand stuff.

Chris V (01:17:47):
Yeah. Gear is is a point by for the customization
by default, but then the sothere are the random tables if
you just wanna have fun and seewhat you get. You don't know
what you want your character tohave. So

Dave (01:17:59):
Yeah. That's cool. Brilliant. I do have a couple of
other questions.

Matthew (01:18:03):
Go ahead.

Dave (01:18:03):
You're talk you're talking about the exiles. So you're
saying that, exiles can be bornoutside the kind of
metropolises. Do they then nothave the, kinda pre installed,

Chris V (01:18:17):
wet Everybody's got that because it's it's genetic.
It was like It's genetic. Right.Nanovirus basically that we
released out, and so everybodyis. And then you're usually
dampered on it, you know, untilyou're old enough.
There's so one of the big youknow, I said everything in mesh.
So the and there's the outer netover everything. There's also
what I'm calling the safety net,which most so all kids, you

(01:18:39):
know, you're you're basicallyblocked from being able to do a
lot of stuff until your of ageRight. Which, of course, you can
you can hack through that if youhave a younger character and
wanna figure that out.

Dave (01:18:47):
If you're clever enough. Yeah.

Chris V (01:18:48):
Yeah. No. It's cool. You're not like I have a baby
stuck on the Internet. You know?
So

Dave (01:18:53):
No. I was just wondering whether there was a dynamic
there for a character who didn'thave that who would then get to
play into the into the system.But but, no, that's

Chris V (01:19:01):
You can turn it off because the one of the it's an
optional thing, but I also havea I like the game dial ideas
from a lot of the, is it is itpowered by the apocalypse that
use the dials? Or

Matthew (01:19:14):
Mhmm. I always

Chris V (01:19:14):
get that in the blaze of the dark. So there's a
surveillance and a survival.Yeah. There's a surveillance and
survival dials. So if you tookif you turn off your ability to
connect, they're gonna know itbecause you basically they're
tracking everybody.
And if you go off, they're gonnaknow where you were, and then
you went off. So that raises thesurveillance level in the area

(01:19:35):
because somebody just went offand why.

Matthew (01:19:37):
Yeah.

Dave (01:19:37):
And then

Chris V (01:19:38):
as you go out from, you know, the the city areas, the
survival level goes up. Somaking it harder to do, you
know, certain things becauseyou're in areas where you can't
do them as easily. So so they'reoptional rules that you don't
have to worry about if you don'twant to, but they're in there so
that if you wanna get a littlegrittier. Trying to keep it so
it's not too gritty like t 2k. Idon't know if I could even play

(01:20:02):
without a a BTT.
There's so much to it. Yeah. Youprobably can, but I wanted to so
it's playable, you know, withouthaving to worry about that. But
there's ability to if you wannaramp up the grittiness and the,
you know, the crunch,

Dave (01:20:14):
there are some options. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. The other
question I was going to ask, nowmost cyberpunk games have a
concept of humanity, and youkind of lose your humanity the
more cyberware you get.
Do you have something like thatin terminal state or not?

Chris V (01:20:31):
There is an augment limit.

Dave (01:20:32):
I know what answer I want, but let let's see

Chris V (01:20:34):
what you're saying. There there is an augment limit,
and it's based on act instead ofbeing 1 it's based on 2 of your
stats. It's one of those compit's a it's a derived stat kinda
like health in the you know,where it's combined. And you can
go up to that without any chanceof penalty. And even when you go
over, it's not like youautomatically then it's it's

(01:20:55):
when you then you have to startrolling.
And the more and more you goover, the more chance of, you
know, having something where youyou're just taxing your system
too much is what it because it'sbased on your your your flex,
which is your nervous systembasically stat, if you wanna
think of it that way, yourreflexes. And you're cool is my
other so then my my size statsare based or Yeah. Nod backs to

(01:21:16):
Cyberpunk 2022. Their body flextech and cool and Cool. Cool.

Matthew (01:21:21):
Cool. I love those. Yeah.

Chris V (01:21:22):
So your cool and your flex make up your augment limit.
So you're cool as, you know,your and you sorry. My brain
just turned off. So Mhmm. Cooland flex determine your augment
limit.
And, you know, when you pushthose to the limit, then you're
starting to, you know, tax youryour nervous system or your your
your your ability to, you know,cognitively, you know, be human.

(01:21:44):
You're losing your cool and

Dave (01:21:47):
Yeah.

Chris V (01:21:47):
Yeah. Yeah. But it No.

Dave (01:21:49):
That's cool because I I I can see why a lot of games have
it. I do, I I often find it ittakes this is the kind of to to
use a favorite phrase ofMatthews. It takes some of the
fun out of it when you're you'rekind of so limited in what you
can do

Chris V (01:22:05):
Yeah. Yeah.

Dave (01:22:06):
Without suddenly becoming, you know, effectively a robot,
which, which I don't I don'tenjoy. Yeah. The game is
supposed to be fun. If you wannabe be shining with lots of
cybernetics, then you should beallowed to to shine with lots of
cybernetics in my opinion. Yeah.

Chris V (01:22:22):
Oh, yeah. You can. Yep. And and not every cybernetic has
the same effect because not ifyou can have as much cyber as
you want. If there's if you wanta cyber arm, if you're not
getting a gain bonus from it, ifyou're not using one of the
cybernetics that give you abonus, then it's just you have
a, you know, have a cyber arm.
I don't care. It's justcosmetic. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

(01:22:42):
So Yeah. Cause you know, so ithas no game effect, so it has no
effect towards your augmentlimit. It's the ones where you
have to buy that actually giveyou a bonus, give you an effect.

Dave (01:22:52):
Nice.

Chris V (01:22:55):
Cool. And the term there when you go over your
limit is you you you've goneaugmental, by the way. Alright.
Okay. Yeah.
That's cool.

Dave (01:23:07):
Excellent. I love your play on words. It's it's cool.

Matthew (01:23:13):
I'm just talking about so I I I'm I'm loving, you know,
the your stat names and thingslike that. Can I ask a vital
question Mhmm? Which is, whatskill do you use to spot
somebody creeping up on you?

Chris V (01:23:28):
Observe.

Matthew (01:23:29):
Observation. Okay. Yeah. Cool.

Chris V (01:23:32):
Observe, and it works. Yeah.

Matthew (01:23:36):
And how many skills have you gone for? Because, you
know, some games have got, like,16, some have got 12.

Chris V (01:23:41):
It's got what

Dave (01:23:42):
have you popped up?

Chris V (01:23:42):
Doing the I I stole from Blaineer, and it's got 13
because it's got the drive skillseparate based on
maneuverability of the vehiclejust like the 300 mile. Like,
that that's brilliant. I'm like,that's that's so brilliant.

Dave (01:23:55):
Yeah.

Chris V (01:23:56):
I I loved that. So that had to happen. That's like I'm
I'm gonna yep. So there'sthere's 12, 3 for each stat.

Dave (01:24:04):
Cool.

Matthew (01:24:04):
Well, I think we're out of time, Dave, unless you've got
any

Dave (01:24:09):
I think I think I think the only the only other thing
I'll say is that, that's been agreat chat, and it's, it's
encouraged me to back it, whichI have done about 5 minutes ago.
So very good luck to you, Chris.It sounds great. And I do love
the look of it. And so, youknow, I the old Cyberpunk
Cyberpunk Red, you know, doesn'tdo it for me anymore.

Matthew (01:24:31):
I

Dave (01:24:31):
am still a big fan of the cyberpunk genre, and, this all
sounds great. So, yeah. Goodluck. And, Well,

Chris V (01:24:38):
thank you.

Dave (01:24:38):
Fingers crossed.

Matthew (01:24:39):
Let's It seems to be get

Dave (01:24:40):
you over the line.

Matthew (01:24:41):
A brilliantly realized world, Chris.

Dave (01:24:44):
Yes. Absolutely.

Chris V (01:24:45):
It's it's funny because when I started it, I was gonna
make it setting agnostic

Matthew (01:24:50):
Yeah.

Chris V (01:24:50):
And just kinda have you know, I just wanted to make a
cyberpunk system for y z e.Mhmm. And now the the setting is
actually the largest part of thebook, partly because every part
of it is a 2 page spread.There's 6 districts and 3
sectors in each disc well, notquite. They average out in 3.
Some have 2, some have 4, butbasically, there's 3 sectors in
every one. And every districtand every sector has a 2 page

(01:25:12):
spread. So it becomes the largethe largest section of the book,
that in

Dave (01:25:16):
the core section.

Chris V (01:25:17):
Because I'm being a graphic designer.

Matthew (01:25:20):
All the concepts you've thrown in. I'm loving your fact
that there's kind of homages tocyberpunk or associated stuff of
the past, but it's all its ownthing. It feels it's it feels
fresh and new, and that's Yeah.

Dave (01:25:33):
It does. Great. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris V (01:25:35):
That was that was the hope. That was the hope because
yeah. I agree. I think Ilistened to your one before that
Cyborg is probably the bestthrowback 80 style cyberpunk
game out there. It really does.
What they were all missing isthe punk part of it, and they
nailed that. Mhmm. But this Iwanted this one, I wanted more
of a like, Cyberpunk 2020 whereit's kind of a so cyberpunk

(01:25:56):
world is more to it than justthe punks. So I wanted
everything in there

Dave (01:26:00):
Yeah.

Chris V (01:26:01):
But still a fresher take on it, hopefully. That was
the goal.

Matthew (01:26:05):
Well, it it it sounds brilliant. I haven't yet backed,
but I probably will before theend of your campaign. So, and I
urge our listeners as well.Yeah. I mean, obviously, don't
cancel don't cancel your Talesof the Odd West.

Dave (01:26:18):
No. No. No. No. No.
This is a one or the other. Backback both of them.

Chris V (01:26:23):
Yeah. Very different. Very different. You can't go
wrong with YZ E games. They theythis.
It's a solid solid system.

Dave (01:26:31):
Yeah. Absolutely.

Matthew (01:26:33):
That that's brilliant. Thanks very much for coming to
talk to us, Chris. It's been awonderful Thank

Chris V (01:26:37):
you for having me.

Dave (01:26:38):
Yeah. Thank you. So that was great. It was a real
pleasure chatting to Chris andreally opened my eyes about
terminal state. As I saidearlier, I think, talking to him
has revealed how much morethought and and and stuff has
gone into this game than than isperhaps apparent on the
Kickstarter page.
I backed it. I backed it duringthe interview, as I said. So,

(01:26:59):
fingers crossed. Looking forwardto this funding. So as of
recording, which is Sunday 15th,there's 11 days to go.
It runs till Thursday theSeptember 26th. They are £2,001
short of their target with a 127backers. So if you're

(01:27:22):
interested, go and have a look,bracket. Let's see if we can get
Chris and Terminal State overthe line.

Matthew (01:27:29):
Yes. This is a game that I think deserves to exist,
and I haven't backed it yet, butI will be backing it. And I hope
that we can persuade, anotherfew tens of backers. Surely,
just tens of backers is all weneed to get over the line.

Dave (01:27:46):
Yeah.

Matthew (01:27:46):
And it looks like a great book. Chris is, as you
heard, a graphic designer, so itlooks a bit gorgeous already.
Yeah. And, it, you know, it'd bea lovely thing to have on your
shelf or in your PDF library ifyou can't afford to have it sent
over to from America. Eitherway, it looks great.

(01:28:09):
Absolutely. Right. Next week,Dave, or next episode, I should
say.

Dave (01:28:13):
Yes. You had an idea about what we might do next time. So
tales of the old west, we, we'rewe're trying to to to to create
the rules and the mechanics toreflect some of the the vagaries
and the the variances of of thetime. And one area where this is

(01:28:33):
particularly, salient is weaponsand guns. So I'm gonna talk a
little bit next time about theweapons of the west, and how
we've tried to use the rules.
Your zero engine rules to bringout some of that sense. That
that look and feel, of whatweapons were really like. And

(01:28:56):
how they how your choice ofweapon will actually, you know,
give you tactical advantages ordisadvantages, depending on what
you want your weapon to do, andwhat you want to do with it.

Matthew (01:29:09):
Yeah. And, we I I feel already the next episode is
gonna be called You clapping?

Dave (01:29:15):
No. That was me shooting my little gun that I took to
Table Top Scotland, which soit's a it's a very cheap little
plastic gun. But and I and Ionly got it as a whim, as a as a
prop, just for a bit of fun. Butthen actually

Matthew (01:29:29):
You just wanted a toy, Dave. You wanted a toy.

Dave (01:29:31):
Well, there is that as well. But actually, at the
convention, it was reallyhelpful in me describing how the
rules, you know, apply.

Matthew (01:29:40):
Oh, double action and single action.

Dave (01:29:42):
Exactly. So I was able to demonstrate it really clearly to
people who who don't know muchabout it. So that was actually

Matthew (01:29:48):
We need to make another video, Dave. We do. Depending
that.

Dave (01:29:51):
I think we do. Absolutely. We should do that soon as well.

Matthew (01:29:55):
So yeah. What was I gonna say? I was gonna say
something very important. Andyou've just taken me by by
shooting a gun at me, you you'vetaken me to stab me.

Dave (01:30:07):
So about about web oh, but also, on our video, I did have
on one of our videos, our launchvideo, I did say, we don't even
have a gun. But now we do.

Matthew (01:30:16):
It's not it's not it's not

Dave (01:30:17):
a real gun, but we have one.

Matthew (01:30:20):
Yes. It was the video of, as you say, a little short
video we did, just at the lastminute, in fact, of our day at
ILARP, I said, oh, should we doa just a quick one for when we
actually when we actually golive to announce that that we've
gone live? And that that washilarious. Another video is
coming out as well, I shouldsay, probably shortly after

(01:30:42):
recording this on the Sundaywhere we talk about campaigns.
But guns guns in year 0 areinteresting in that, guns and
the different sorts of gunspeople had in the old west with
a time.
It's huge modification of guns.We thought it was important to

(01:31:03):
reflect that wide variety ofguns, but year zero engine
generally isn't great at doingthat because there's not much
nuance in the stats. Things havegot more comp you know,
complicated in, in twilight2000. They've they've taken a an
approach to sort of giving you abit more variance in guns in

(01:31:24):
that way. We didn't wanna godown that route, but we have, I
think, created something that isquite variable.
But we've already been askedquestions that pertain to some
of the decisions that weactually made in developing
this. Like Yeah. Very early on,we talked about cap and ball
pistols and and ammunition, andwhether we should reflect that

(01:31:46):
in some sort of way. And forreasons that you will explain
next week or in the nextepisode, Dave, we didn't go down
that with for this game. There'sno reason why you can't, and
we'll, you know, maybe we'll doan earlier period where there's
more cap and ball stuff, and wewill we'll actually do some
official rules around that inone of our future publications.

(01:32:07):
But for this period, we said,no. Actually, let's let's just
stick with the with the slightlysimpler mechanics, because
there's other stuff that peoplehave got to get their head
around.

Dave (01:32:15):
Yeah. And Yeah. Absolutely.

Matthew (01:32:17):
And we'll talk about that next week Yeah. Or next
time.

Dave (01:32:20):
Indeed. Cool. Well, I think that's probably enough for
today. So, it's goodbye from me.

Matthew (01:32:27):
And it's goodbye from him.

Chris V (01:32:29):
May the icons bless your adventures.

Dave (01:32:32):
You have been listening to the Effect podcast presented by
Fiction Suit and the RPG Gods.Music stars on a black sea used
with permission of freelypublishing.

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