The home straight!

Episode Transcript
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Matthew (00:40):
Hello, and welcome to episode 241 of Effect, the home
straight. My name is Matthew.

Dave (00:49):
And I'm Dave. And as always, we've got a pack show
for you today. But, the homestraight, yes. We're in the home
straight of the Tales of the OldWest Kickstarter with 4 days to
go. But yeah.
So we got a few other things totalk about other than that
though. We have, world ofgaming. There's a few other
games that have come up onkickstarter we wanna talk about.

(01:11):
And a couple of other littlebits and bobs of news we have
there. Then we've got a littlebit of an update for tales of
the old west in the old westnews today.

Matthew (01:19):
Just a little bit. Just a tiny bit. Just a

Dave (01:21):
tiny bit. And the the main the main meat of the show, the
the meat and potatoes of theshow today is, the the the ask
us anything interview that wedid on Thursday this last week,
26th September. So if you didn'tget a chance to, to watch that

(01:43):
on YouTube, you can hear it allhere. So all the questions that
were asked and all our lovelyanswers, we will be talking
about those later on. Is thatnice?

Matthew (01:52):
Yeah. It makes me think that if you if if you're not at
all interested in Tales of theOld West, this may not be the
episode for you. Sorry, guys.

Dave (02:00):
That is true. Well, the the the first bit will,
hopefully.

Matthew (02:03):
Yeah. The the yeah.

Dave (02:03):
World of gaming.

Matthew (02:04):
Catch to the world of gaming. We put we put links in
the, in the thing, so you cancut to world of gaming and hear
about some other games that wetalk about. But, yeah, the rest
of the episode is kind of talesof the old west heavy, which,
you know, we are days away fromthe end of a successful
Kickstarter campaign. Sorry, but

Dave (02:22):
So so we Yeah. We hope you'll forgive us for being a
little bit obsessed by Tales ofthe Old West this week. Maybe
has ruled

Matthew (02:29):
our life for the last month.

Dave (02:30):
Maybe next week, we should do something that's not Tales of
the Old West. I know we don'tOh,

Matthew (02:34):
I've just put you down for for talking about Nuance ing
the gun law.

Dave (02:38):
I know. I know. We've had that conversation, but maybe
maybe we should do somethingsomething else.

Matthew (02:43):
Right. Okay. Let's have

Dave (02:44):
a look. You have to think

Matthew (02:45):
about that while I'm in Essen.

Dave (02:47):
Yes. That is true. Yeah. So I'm assuming do we have do we
have any

Matthew (02:51):
We don't have any new patrons.

Dave (02:52):
Okay. But, anyway, a big thank you to all of our,
existing patrons or past pastand present patrons. Again, the
success we've had with Tales ofthe Old West would have been
nowhere near as good as it'sbeen without the support of all
of you. So thank you all so sovery very much. We say that we
say that a lot, but that'sbecause we really mean it.

Matthew (03:11):
But it is true. It is true.

Dave (03:13):
It is true. Yeah. Yes. What about gaming then?

Matthew (03:18):
Yeah. So what gaming? First of all, it's not just our
success that our patrons shouldbe, should feel proud of. It's
the success of the terminalstate Kickstarter, which, got
fully funded and got somestretch goals as well. Yeah.
Having struggled earlier in thecampaign, but then they came on
the Effect podcast 2 weeks ago.And then whoosh. They were

(03:41):
through. They went through theirtarget, and they went through a
bunch of stretch goals. So we'llbe we'll be playing terminal
state.
It'll be a thing that peoplecould actually have.

Dave (03:52):
Yeah. So that's brilliant. It is. And I'm I'm really
pleased because I I think thethe the campaign was pretty much
dead in the water. Wasn't it?
I think when we when we firstsaw it.

Matthew (04:03):
I like to think so. I like I

Dave (04:05):
mean I mean, obviously, it's not just us. We can take
some credit, I think.

Matthew (04:09):
But it's mostly us.

Dave (04:10):
Getting the news out there a little bit, possibly.

Matthew (04:14):
But, I think

Dave (04:16):
it was it was I think it was it was it was struggling.
And actually, I think, you know,the the the converse I think
like I said before, theconversation we've had with
Chris Vermeran, who's thecreator, really unpacked what
the game was about and some ofthe lovely things that were
actually in the game that didn'tcome out, I don't think, from
the kickstarter page very well.

Matthew (04:37):
Yeah.

Dave (04:37):
So I think that made certainly for me, that made all
the difference. Because I lookedat it and wasn't going to back
it. Having spoken to Chris, Idid. So Yeah.

Matthew (04:44):
No. That's very true. While while you were speaking to
him, in fact. While you were

Dave (04:47):
Exactly. So, yeah. I'm delighted that that's got over
the line. And to say, they didunlock a couple of stretch
goals. Let's have a little look.
What did they what did they getto unlock? So a random drone
generator, tables to randomlyroll up a drone, including the
type, the mode of conveyance,upgrades, and so on. Random
vehicle generator. Okay.Interesting.

(05:09):
Random weapon generators. So heobviously likes his random
generators, which is cool.

Matthew (05:13):
Mhmm. He he did. He he there's a lovely update where he
says, you'll notice I've reducedthe, targets on all these
stretch goals. It's because Ireally like random generators, I
wanna make sure we get some.

Dave (05:26):
Yeah. And then he's got a couple some Sykes art was
unlocked. So the one they didn'tget to, they didn't reach, they
didn't get to solo rules. But Idon't know whether they might
put that in anyway, becausethey're not far off. Mhmm.
But yes, I'm delighted forChris. I'm really pleased that
that got over the line. And Ithink that And

Matthew (05:45):
it's a friend of the show, 3 skulls match that will
be writing those solo rules.

Dave (05:50):
Yeah. And he's got a lot of experience, because he's done
done them for a number of freeleague games, doesn't he? So

Matthew (05:57):
Yeah.

Dave (05:59):
So, yeah. That would be good. Yeah.

Matthew (06:02):
I must admit, I, I I had a quick go at making a
random weapon on the randomweapons table. And I'm just
trying to see whether I can seewhat I made again. I think I I
thought I'd put it on the,

Dave (06:16):
Is that in the quick draw or the quick draw? The, yeah,
the quick start.

Matthew (06:21):
No. That was, so when when they when they hit the
random weapons table, Chrispublished an update with the
table. You could just downloadit.

Dave (06:31):
Okay. Cool.

Matthew (06:32):
And it and it's a fun old thing, and I was quite quite
pleased with the random weapon Igenerate. I can't I can't find
it, my little write up for itnow. Okay. But, it was a it was
a hand cannon that was bothdiscreet and silenced, but was a
flamethrower. Okay.
So I thought it's discreet andsilenced until people are

(06:54):
running around screamingburning.

Dave (06:56):
Yeah. I you kind of wonder, a weapon called a hand
cannon doesn't sound

Matthew (07:02):
No. Hand cannon's sorry. So it

Dave (07:04):
Oh, okay.

Matthew (07:04):
You say, discretion. It's a pistol.

Dave (07:07):
Discretion doesn't seem to be inherent in that name, does
it?

Matthew (07:12):
Cool. No. Yeah. I I think you can have a whale of
fun with the random gen with therandom weapon generator. And
indeed, I imagine the otherrandom tables as well.
So, good on you, Chris.Congratulations

Dave (07:22):
on winning. Congratulations.

Matthew (07:24):
It wasn't it wasn't all us. I mean, you did write the
game, so you deserve some of thecredit.

Dave (07:31):
Yes. But No. That's good. That's good news.

Matthew (07:35):
And then, actually, you know, the the Kickstarters don't
stop happening because there'sanother one that caught my eye,
and that is Paragon's, which iskind of year 0 ish. I mean, he
mentions year 0, but it isn'the's he's not sticking the year
0 engine stamp on. Because Ithink he's, I say he. They have,

(07:57):
you know, have have added otherelements in as well. But it's a
superhero game.

Dave (08:03):
Yeah. So, yeah. Again, I had a quick look at this. Again,
it's another one where on theface of it, well, the original
bit of artwork that they used toheader their page looks lovely,
and it's very exciting. And it'sthat got me going, oh, that
looks interesting.
I quite like the quite like thelook of that. But then actually,

(08:24):
when I looked at the rest of thepage, it was it was again a bit
like terminal state. It it I wasless grabbed the more I looked
at it. And and as you know, youknow, money is is not, you know,
money is tight. Money is tighterthan it has been for in the
past.
So I'm having to be a bitcareful.

Matthew (08:40):
This is your personal spending money. Don't don't
start saying how tight money iswhen we've just got way more
money than we would

Dave (08:47):
Yeah. In New York on

Matthew (08:48):
our Kickstarter.

Dave (08:49):
Personal money is tight. Yeah. So that Yeah. I I don't
get to spend any of ourKickstarter money on buying No.
Games for myself.
So No. That's very

Matthew (08:56):
true. That's very true. Damn, we should have done that
as a stretch call.

Dave (08:59):
Oh, shit. Yeah.

Matthew (09:01):
33,000. Matthew Matthew

Dave (09:02):
Money just

Matthew (09:03):
for by a load of games.

Dave (09:04):
Money just for us. But anyway, so it was one that the
the more I looked through theirpage, the less interested I was.
So again, it it could be onethat if if if we talk to them
about it, it might be somethingthat would get a lot would again
unpack some of the greatnessthat's in there. But actually,
on the yeah. And this comes backto some of the advice that we

(09:26):
had in the amount of time wespent trying to get the the
kickstarter page right.
Mhmm. Because it's so import itis so important to Yeah. Because
because, you know, people aregonna back you on the basis of
that.

Matthew (09:40):
What's on the page? There's a couple of things. I
noticed after we'd done ourinterview that Chris and Paul
changed the terminal state,cover illustration as it were.
And they introduced an, youknow, obviously one of the
undead cats, I can't quiteremember what they're called,
the the guys were, you know,taking over dead bodies.

Dave (10:01):
Right.

Matthew (10:01):
Yeah. You know, they they obviously thought, oh, we
could we could do anillustration that is more
evocative of the game as awhole. So, so that obviously
helped that Kickstarter. And Idon't wanna sound the other
thing, looking at terminal stateand looking at Paragon's page
now, I do wanna sound like theold Grognard that's done this
for years. But having done justone successful Kickstarter, I'm

(10:23):
going, oh, I wouldn't have donethat on my Kickstarter page.
I'm an expert now. And I'm notan expert. I don't think either
of us are an expert. But butimmediately you go, oh, I'm not
sure I'd have said that or doneit that way. Yeah.
Interesting. Very interesting.

Dave (10:40):
Yeah. Because I I think so the the very first picture that
that heads the page is verysuperhero y, and it looks great.
But the other ones could be fromanything, really. The other
pictures could be, you know,some kind of cartoony style
cyberpunk game or something. Sothey're kind of missing the
vibe, I think, a little bit.
So, yeah. I mean, this is just alittle, you know, first

(11:05):
impressions. You know, they'vegot they've got things like, you
know, there are 8 archetypes youcan use. A d 6 dice pool system,
which they don't then explainvery much about. 60 or more
Yeah.

Matthew (11:17):
So they mentioned it's kind of a cross between between
year 0 and Powered by theApocalypse and stuff. So Right.
I'm kind of interested in that.I I imagine there's probably
partial success if you get fivesor fours or something. Yeah.
Count, towards a differentquality of success. But I don't

(11:38):
know. I don't know.

Dave (11:40):
Yeah. So again, I think they they they talk about things
like cool points, But then theydon't say anything else about
it. So it doesn't it's like,okay. You could you could have
said could have said a couple oflines about cool points to make
me go, okay. Now I know whythey're cool.
And that's that's a fun conceptthat I wanna try playing. But
they don't Yeah. I think theyjust don't go into it quite

(12:01):
enough detail.

Matthew (12:02):
In their defense, they do, directly link to a couple of
YouTube videos. They do. One ofwhich is an actual player, one
of which is a, kind of how toplay thing in in the body text.
But, you know, interestingly,again, I don't know whether this
is me spouting off stuff. Ihaven't clicked on those yet.
In in fact, I think I think wecould look up the stats and see

(12:24):
how many people clicked on our,you know, sort of top video,
then top top of the page video,which, which, you know,
Kickstarter recommend you put avideo in. But I was kinda
surprised last time I looked athow few had actually kinda
looked at that. Yeah. So we knowright now, we've got 1200

(12:48):
followers on the project. 6almost 700 have actually watched
the video.
Okay. That's that's good. And ofthat, and it's a short video,
remember, only about half ofthem have actually watched it
right through to the end.

Dave (13:01):
Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew (13:03):
So, yeah. Interesting stuff.

Dave (13:05):
Yeah. I think one of their, one of their, pledge
levels is, take charge of thestory and write a character to
be included as an NPC in yourgame. So similar to our
magnificent 7, but they don'tthey don't add a picture, I
think, to that.

Matthew (13:21):
They don't have a picture. Yeah. Which is why that
looks initially like bettervalue, but it comes without the
portrait.

Dave (13:27):
So That's that's what

Matthew (13:28):
and and

Dave (13:28):
well, and that's where the expenses. That's where, you
know, that's where that's wherethe cost of that pledge level
comes. Yes. But, I mean, they'reonly 5 days in. They've got a
113 backers already, and theyare nearly, I guess, 2 thirds of
the way to their target.
So it looks like it's gonna dowell. So Yeah. That that's
really good. But, yeah, have alook up look up Paragon's if
you're interested potentially ina superhero, I was gonna Yeah.

Matthew (13:52):
And that's not year

Dave (13:53):
zero engine, but year zero engine d 6

Matthew (13:56):
Ish.

Dave (13:56):
Yeah. Duals, light spools ish.

Matthew (13:59):
Until year zero, I remember one of the questions we
didn't get around to, which Ifeel may this may be the point
to answer it. So one of thequestions we didn't get around
to was from our friend, Andy, onon the on the q and a interview
thing we did.

Dave (14:16):
And it was what's what's what's the best vampire program
to watch?

Matthew (14:20):
No. It wasn't that. It was years ago, Matthew, you you
said you wanted to do a western,which, honestly, I can't
remember, RPG and a superheroRPG. So is it Superheroes Next?
And for me, no.
It isn't, Dave. I kind of, I'mI'm kind of not particularly

(14:42):
into superhero RPGs. I did buySpectaculars, which I still want
to run at some point. But, yeah,I'd I'm I'm not it it won't be a
superhero RPG next. I think wecan be pretty confident of that.
Unless, Dave, you say now thatthat's what you wanna do.

Dave (15:00):
I don't think it's top of my list. I mean, the the idea of
doing a superhero RPG is is abit tempting. I mean, I I I look
back on the days of goldenheroes with a lot of, you know,
a lot of love, and a lot of,warm warm feelings. But I think
you'd need to do something alittle bit different with the
genre, because it's it's it'skind of so done. Isn't it?
So you know, I would wantsomething more mature and darker

(15:23):
probably if we were gonna dosomething like that. But then is
that is that enough to to to togive it an IP that that is, you
know, or USP that issufficiently different to
actually, you know, worth doingit. So the idea of it is really
nice, you know, as anintellectual kind of exercise.
But no, I don't I agree. I'm notbanging the door down right now

(15:44):
to do a superhero role playinggame.

Matthew (15:46):
No. Rome year 0, that's where we're at. That's where
we're at at the moment. I thinkit's a good idea to find that
one.

Dave (15:51):
It might

Matthew (15:52):
be. Actually, we need to talk about that on behalf of
our podcast, but that's that'soutside this conversation. Just
a quick note to say D and D isnot going anywhere because in
its 1st weeks, The Player'sHandbook has become the biggest
selling ever D and D book.

Dave (16:10):
Right. It's taken

Matthew (16:11):
out a week or 2.

Dave (16:13):
This is this is what edition 5.25 or whatever they're
calling you.

Matthew (16:17):
I like to call it 2024. I think they're gonna do it like
Windows and, Adobe now. There'llprobably be a 2025 version as
well. You're gonna have toupdate every year.

Dave (16:29):
Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew (16:31):
Yeah. So the 2024 version of, the player's
handbook is is is a big hit, andI think that's no surprise. I
imagine No.

Dave (16:40):
I'm not surprised.

Matthew (16:42):
The biggest audience ever, getting getting a new book
and feeling you know, and and awhole bunch of new people who've
been watching it on YouTube orwhatever thinking, this is the
point where I jump on. Mhmm.Yeah. Yeah. I

Dave (16:56):
mean, it's it's interesting one. So, obviously,
I don't you know, I haven'tlooked into it. I don't know
what changes they're making from5th edition, in the the new
edition, whatever we end uphaving to call it. But it'll be
interesting to see once it'sgetting played out there
properly and people are reallygetting into it, what the what
the consensus is as to whetherthis is a real step up from

(17:17):
where 5th edition was or whetherit's a bit you know, it's not as
good or whether it's basicallyjust more of the same. It'd be
interesting to see.
Yeah.

Matthew (17:26):
Yeah. I have a sneaky suspicion it's more of a tweak,
that they're not gonna make themistake they made with, for
example, going from 3rd to 4thedition. 4th edition has got a
lot of fans behind it, but italso birthed really, the whole
OGL explosion when Pathfinder,the guys at Paizo said, let's

(17:47):
let's just carry on 3rd editionand we'll call it Pathfinder.
So, that was a big fork in the Dand D community, which is I feel
must have been kind of healedover now and that most players
are back on d, on D and D againrather than, you know, Hy Vee. I
mean, obviously, Pathfinder isstill really popular.

Dave (18:06):
Yes. But,

Matthew (18:09):
but yeah. It's the biggest selling book ever.

Dave (18:11):
So Yeah. It it reminds me of when we were at, Comic Con
last year and talking to peoplethere. And the the the most
common thing when I when I saidto people, oh, you're a role
player. What do you play? Waswas was them saying, oh, I play
I play both kinds.
I play 5th edition andPathfinder.

Matthew (18:27):
It was like Yeah. All role playing games.

Dave (18:30):
Guys, guys, I know you love your D and D, but, guys,
there are other games out there.Anyway

Matthew (18:36):
Yeah. I I though I I still treasure that conversation
I had with a bunch of criticalrole cosplayers who turned up.
And, one of them was a reallybig fan of Forbidden Lands. That
made me so happy. So Yeah.
Yeah. Right. What's next on thenews? Oh, this is one you might

(18:59):
be interested in. I just cameacross my socials recently, and
it's the last caravan.
It is forged in the dark, butyou're traveling along a post
alien invasion American roadtrip, I think, is the best way
to describe it. So it's slightlypostapocalyptic. Humanity is

(19:22):
mostly wiped out. I don't knowwhere the aliens have gone
necessarily. But you are, Ithink you start off in a ruined
San Francisco or you're headingtowards a ruined San Francisco.
It's a road trip. You you can bea family with a dog. You can
play the dog. Yeah. It lookedinteresting.
I I'm not sure whether Forge ofthe Dark has ever been, for me,

(19:48):
a successful game system as itwas in the original Blades in
the Dark. Blades in the Darkjust worked for me, and Scum and
Villainy didn't. And I I reallywant to love, the the military
one. What's it called? I can'tremember.
I've got it on my shelf there.But I yeah. I'm not loving I'm

(20:11):
not I'm not loving it enough toactually bring it to the table,
which I think says a lot. So,yeah. Brothers in the Dark.
I can't remember. Band Band ofBrothers. Band of Blades. Band
of Blades.

Dave (20:22):
Band of Blades. That's it. Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew (20:25):
So I'll be interested to see how this plays. It's not
kick starting. I think you canbuy it off off we'll put a link
in the show notes. I think youcan just buy it now.

Dave (20:34):
Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's

Matthew (20:35):
it's cool. The cool

Dave (20:35):
wall book. So I think I think the idea behind it is is
quite interesting. And andhaving just had to look at the,
you know, the the purchase pageas it were, I kinda got a a
gamma world kind of feel almostof of, you know, this world
that's been it's a post alieninvasion, or maybe not even

(20:56):
invasion, but alien occupationkind of thing. I really enjoyed
the blades in the dark that I'veplayed, but I I was still trying
to to really sort of bed in the,you know, the way the game
works. And was still finding ita little bit clunky to get my

(21:16):
head around and really enjoy it.
I think I didn't but I didn'tplay it enough. We played one
short campaign, which is a lotof fun. So I think I think I I
need a little bit of convincingto to sort of dive into that
system. So I'm not gonna bebuying this. It does look
lovely.
I like I quite like the premise.And I, you know, you know me. I
do like a good post apocalypticgame. But, but, yeah. I think

(21:41):
certainly for now this thiswon't be for me.
Again, if I had loads of money,I might I might have pitched in
for it. But, £30 for the for thecore book. It does look nice and
the the artwork is is theartwork is very nice. Even
though, again, for me it's atiny little bit cartoony. You
know, which

Matthew (21:58):
Yeah.

Dave (21:58):
Again, it sets the tone of the game. You know, a post
apocalyptic game. It says here,post apocalyptic game is about
normal people finding heroismunder extraordinary
circumstances. Relationshipstested by a crisis, and
rediscovering what matters whenthe world's ending. Does does
that sound cartoony?

Matthew (22:16):
Yeah. I think, Dave.

Dave (22:17):
So I think

Matthew (22:18):
You're just beginning to get old. You gotta remember,
there's a whole generation thathave been brought up on anime
now.

Dave (22:24):
That is true.

Matthew (22:25):
And there's an amazing anime that does really gritty
stories while still

Dave (22:29):
That is true.

Matthew (22:29):
Being a big guy's small mouth. So Yeah.

Dave (22:32):
That is very true.

Matthew (22:32):
You may be of a generation that have gotta let
go of the cartoony art. Perhaps.Yeah. And just with the look and
feel, if I was trying

Dave (22:37):
to make

Matthew (22:37):
a game that was gritty

Dave (22:37):
and, you know, hard edged, I I would go less cartoony in
the artwork, personally.

Matthew (22:51):
Yeah. So Yeah. Well, we'll we'll see how it does. And
just a quick note, because, wewanna keep this recording a bit
short, because we've got aboutan hour of chat.

Dave (23:00):
We've got

Matthew (23:01):
plenty of stuff going. Yeah. Afterwards. People will be
tired of our voices by the endof this podcast.

Dave (23:06):
That is that is true.

Matthew (23:09):
Yeah. So I'm but if you're not tired of my voice and
indeed want to see me, and youhappen to be in Essen next
weekend for Essen spiel, I'mgonna be there working the free
league stand, so come and have achat. If you've got any doubts
about backing tales of the oldwest, try and grab me in on
Thursday before the campaignfinishes. And in the midst of

(23:32):
obviously prioritizing sellingyou fee league stuff, I will
also try and allay any fearsabout Taz of the Old West you
might have so that you can, youcan back it before but in
Germany, it'd be 4 o'clockGerman time, when our campaign
ends.

Dave (23:48):
Yep. Cool.

Matthew (23:50):
Which is a nice segue to the fact that our campaign
ends on Thursday.

Dave (23:55):
At 1600 British summertime?

Matthew (23:58):
6 no. At, at 1300 something. No.

Dave (24:03):
6 1600.

Matthew (24:04):
4 o'clock. 4

Dave (24:06):
o'clock. Is it? Yes.

Matthew (24:09):
Oh, why did I think it's 3 o'clock? I think I've
also asked for the wrong timeoff with, Camo World, Esson.

Dave (24:16):
It's Why

Matthew (24:16):
did I think that? It would be 4 o'clock. Is that when
it started?

Dave (24:20):
Yes. Yeah. Of course it

Matthew (24:21):
is. 4 PM BST. Yeah.

Dave (24:24):
Because you're you're you're you're an aged old man
whose brain doesn't work.

Matthew (24:27):
I think I've just I've just gotten all befuddled. Yeah.
I'll I'll have to check and seewhat I said to, Anna about when
I wanted time off.

Dave (24:35):
I'm sure she'll be accommodating with with any
changes. So yeah.

Matthew (24:40):
I'll I'll tell you a thing after the show, actually,
about the organizing for that,but we will finish recording
first. Yeah. Cool. Cool. Yeah.
So old west news, Dave. Hasthere been any?

Dave (24:53):
So, we are we are now, what, 2 thirds of our way to our
final stretch goal, solo rules.I was finally have my arm
trusted to, to go with to gowith some solo rules. So but
we're not far off 30,000 nowwith 4 days or 3 and a half days
to go. That's Sunday. So yeah, 4days to go, 4 and a bit days to

(25:15):
go.
And yeah, again, I mean, we wewere discussing the other day.
Neither of us, thought that, youknow, in our wildest daydreams,
we might make 25,000. And itkind of Yeah.

Matthew (25:29):
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think we both thought that.
Yeah. You know, in our wildestdaydreams, both of us were
secretly thinking we might getabout 25,000. And here we are,
you know, closing in on 30, anda stretch goal that, we never
imagined having, actually.
You know? Yeah. A whole bunch ofour stretch goals were carefully
planned beforehand, but, solarrules wasn't in the plan until

(25:53):
people kept asking for it in inin the social and on our
comments. And, it took me somepersuading. And, also,
obviously, it took us, you know,some needing another stretch
goal.

Dave (26:07):
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So so it's, yeah. So it's gone
supremely well.
Yeah. All the stretch goals thatwe'd considered in advance have
been unlocked. Yeah. I'm justtrying to think that obviously,
we've got quite a lot we we talkabout in the ask us anything in
a minute. So I don't wannarepeat that here.
Yeah. But again, I think, youknow, a huge thank you. And

(26:32):
then, you know, the hard workthe hard work starts here,
really.

Matthew (26:36):
Yes. And it does. And it has already started. So we're
we're finalizing, getting thedice mould made. We're, I I've
just sent a bunch of text off toour sensitivity reader, some of
which they have seen before,very early on, about 4 years
ago.
Or they haven't seen this. Theythey will recognize some of the

(26:58):
sentences, but the you know,there's been quite a big rewrite
since they've done that, sowe've sent it all to them again.
Yeah. So, yeah, work isbeginning. We will need to
compose before I go to Germanythe what happens next update.

Dave (27:13):
Yeah. Yeah. For the

Matthew (27:14):
thing so that you can press go on that, when or I can
just go from there.

Dave (27:18):
That's easy. Yeah. That's fine. That's no problem.

Matthew (27:21):
And we'll do that. So so but thank you everybody who
has supported us so far. We areactually flabbergasted. Yes. So
so it's brilliant.
We love you all. We love youall. And that community. So
we've got what are we we'relooking at almost 550 backers
now, 542 backers

Dave (27:40):
That is

Matthew (27:40):
at the moment of recording. And the that's I
mean, some of that some of those542 are a little community that
we've known for years, who arepatrons and stuff like that. And
some of them are listeners, butthere's new people in that
community as well. And I'm kindof really excited about
nurturing that little communityof 550 people, and, and, and

(28:02):
giving them a game that theyreally enjoy. And Yeah.
Oh, I'm just excited. My heartis beating fast, Dave.

Dave (28:07):
Cool. Yeah. Me too. Me too. But yes.
So there's plenty of work to do,but we are we've got we've got
our plans and we'll do our bestto, to stick to them. But, yeah.
So I think maybe maybe now weshould we should move on to, to
the session we had the other daythen when we invited people to
ask us anything.

Matthew (28:29):
We are live. It says here on the screen. Hello,
everybody. We're live. Hello.
And I know we have some viewersbecause there's people
commenting already on our livechat. Hey, Mohammed. Hello,
Frank. Hello, Andy and Paul andTomstad in whoever you are. I'm
not sure we know who you are,but, you're welcome.

(28:51):
I am Matthew. And

Dave (28:54):
I'm Dave.

Matthew (28:55):
Welcome, Dave. A bit slow, but there you go.

Dave (28:58):
Yeah. Well, I was kind of expecting you to say something
funny or attempted to saysomething funny, like, you know,
and he's Dave or something. Idon't know. Anyway Wow.

Matthew (29:05):
Yeah. I only do. But then when I say, and he's Dave,
you say, and I'm Dave. And thenit kinda so I was giving you
space to say I'm Dave.

Dave (29:14):
But then on the podcast, you can edit that out whereas
you can't edit that out here. Soanyway, good evening, everyone,
and thank you very much forcoming along to, to our question
and answer session. Ask usanything. Tales of the Old West
has now been going for what 23days, 24 days even in its
Kickstarter campaign. We areblown away by how well, it's

(29:37):
done and how how fabulouslyeveryone has supported it.
So thank you right off the offthe bat for that. But there's a
few days left. We wanted to takethe opportunity to, put
ourselves out there and makethemselves available for any
questions that anyone mighthave. Doesn't have to be about
Tales of the Order West even,but, I guess naturally that

(29:58):
would make sense. But yeah.
So here we are.

Matthew (30:02):
We can also solve any problems you want to bring to us
like an agony aren't. We're verygood at advice.

Dave (30:08):
I'm listening.

Matthew (30:11):
Now

Dave (30:11):
To quote my favorite

Matthew (30:12):
already, at least one question in the chat, which we
might get to or even more.

Dave (30:19):
No. It's a stupid question for Andy.

Matthew (30:21):
No. I'm not having that one. I'm not we are not
answering this one just to showeverybody. Go away, Andy. Just
go away.
We have got some questions fromBruce. Maybe we could start off
with, some questions.

Dave (30:39):
All

Matthew (30:40):
of the this is this is the sort of question we want,
Andy. This from Frank. Look atthis. This is a sensible
question.

Dave (30:47):
It is.

Matthew (30:48):
You must be chuffed with the progress so far. Is
there anything that you that youalready know you would do
differently in your nextKickstarter?

Dave (31:00):
Okay. Serious answers only then because there is, it's
obviously, you know, theimmediate answer is, that

Matthew (31:07):
you're doing Matthew.

Dave (31:11):
So I yeah. Yes. There is one thing. So I think we we've
done quite a lot of thinkingquite a lot of work about
stretch goals, before westarted, but what we hadn't
really kind of sat down and andlike scenario through was what
do we do if, you know, what dowe do if we, you know, we blow
through our target in 5 hours?We hadn't, we hadn't had that

(31:32):
conversation and we probablyshould have done.
So I think we could have plannedthe stretch goals for various
scenarios much more effectivelybecause we did find ourselves
like, hastily getting in touchwith each other saying, okay.
What's next then? Well, this ison the list. Is that what we
wanna do? How where do we wannaset it?
And so we did become a bitfrantic in those moments when we
could have planned that betterfor sure.

Matthew (31:52):
Yeah. Of course, there's a thing about planning
your stretch goals in that youyou kind of think you're cursing
yourself to failure. You'recounting your chickens before
before they hatch. And I thinkone great bit of advice came
from Shep, Dave, when, you know,we'd we'd set up our screen.
We'd we'd put some stretch goalsup, and Shep said, don't put the

(32:15):
stretch goals up.

Dave (32:16):
It was like, oh, don't don't don't commit to the price.
No. No. No. No.
No. Don't do that. Yeah.

Matthew (32:21):
So I think the fact that we could be a little bit
flexible with with the targetsof the stretch goals I mean, not
that we changed them very much.No. But that was really good
advice. And we did at thebeginning. We went for our we
knew we wanted that that £10,000stretch goal to to let us afford
the book that we wanted.
Yeah. But, after that, we did acouple of just £1,000 loans, and

(32:47):
we were burning through those soquickly that, we, we went back
to £2,000 ones, and that seemedto be a really good place to be.
If we that in the stone when welaunched the Kickstarter, we'd
have been the victims of our ownsuccess or failure or whatever,
and that would have been a bitof a challenge.

Dave (33:06):
Yeah. I would just like to say a great thank you to to Shep
Shep Sheperson, and and, youknow, all the other people
who've given us advice aboutstrip, about kick starting. We I
think we did avoid a lot of,schoolboy errors, frankly, with
that advice. So, you know, thathas made the process a lot

(33:28):
easier than it might otherwisehave been. But I think, you
know, I mean, I think Frank, Imean, we we didn't really have a
marketing, like, plan, but wedid have a lot of stuff we
wanted to do for marketing.
We could possibly be a bit moreorganized on that next time. But
Oh, you did have a bit of

Matthew (33:48):
a plan, actually. It was one of our most planned
things.

Dave (33:51):
It just gets to show how badly planned everything else
was then, doesn't it?

Matthew (33:56):
But, but, yeah, I think I think having done it once, I
might think differently aboutwhat we do in that marketing
plan. I'd I think I'd make thatmarketing plan a bit different.

Dave (34:10):
Yeah.

Matthew (34:11):
Yeah. Yeah. There's that. And the other thing, I
think the thing I've learned is,virtual tabletops. Virtual
tabletops are what people want.

Dave (34:21):
It does seem to be so, doesn't it? Yeah.

Matthew (34:23):
And I don't know whether we would have done
anything differently. We timedthat virtual tabletop on only
after we'd had a chat with Paul,who's here in the chat. So that
was an accident of timing, butit was possibly also at exactly
the right point in the campaign.Yeah. Because it gave us a
little boost just as we'rehitting the depths of the
doldrums.

Dave (34:44):
I mean, it's interesting. If you if you look at the way
the campaign's gone, after thosefirst two days, which, you know,
were were really good, we'vewe've claimed have been running
at a fairly steady rate. We'vehad our our low days and our our
slightly higher days. But thenif you look at the graph, you've
then got the one big step up,which was the day where we
announced the VTT and the daythat we got the VTT funded. You

(35:07):
know, it all happened in in lessthan 24 hours.

Matthew (35:11):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think having that mid campaign was
great, but I don't know. Maybe Ithink about doing it earlier in
the campaign or even later inthe campaign to be a bit of a
climactic one. But, yeah.
So planning planning stretchgoals might be a a different
thing we do differently next.

Dave (35:31):
I think we just do it a bit more thoroughly, I think.
And we would because because,you know, I think part of the
problem was not knowing how wellwe were going to do. It's very
difficult to actually plan thestretch goals. You know? Yeah.
Any plan, you know, becomesuseless once you engage with the
enemy, not that our backers arethe enemy, of course. Let's
rephrase that one. But wecould've we could've kind of

(35:53):
exercised out differentscenarios and had a had a
clearer plan, so it was slightlyless frantic than it might have
been.

Matthew (36:01):
Yeah. Do we want to do one of Bruce's questions before
we move on to some of the otherones on the chat?

Dave (36:06):
Yeah. Why not? Which one do you wanna go for?

Matthew (36:09):
Well, I thought I'll go for the one on on on on the list
you presented. That's at the topof the list. And that is why
18/73? Now tell you that. Iwanna ask why 18/73 because I
remember writing categoricallyin the principles of the game.
It was gonna be 18/18, 18/81 orsomething. And then suddenly it

(36:31):
was 18/73, and it was you thatdid it, Dave. Why?

Dave (36:37):
I think there's there's various reasons actually. So,
the the timing I think is, sothe period of the Wild West, if
you wanna be a bit, you know,categorical about it is quite
short in history. It's onlyabout 40 or 50 years. So I
wanted to get us at the earliestpoint in that period to allow
for connect campaigns that couldrun for, you know, 20, 30, 40

(37:01):
years. You can have more than 1character maybe.
But I wanted it to be far enoughaway from the civil war. So the
civil war wasn't the overridingdominating thing, in everybody's
minds. And also, it gets us afew years past the, the,
emancipation proclamation of18/73/73/63, and then the

(37:23):
actual, passing that into lawafter the war finished in 65. So
again, we wouldn't be dealingwith the issue of lots of people
who are still enslaved. So allthose people are now free.
Okay. There's a debate to be haddiscussion to be had about what
that really means. But they theybecame playable characters in

(37:43):
the way that we would want themto be. So 18/73, which I thought
about as early as we could getaway with in that situation.
It's, yeah.
And I think that's probably thekey reason really that it gives
us the longest campaign play wecan have, but it's far enough
removed from the civil war andthe impact of the civil war that

(38:03):
it's not a civil war game. It'sa wild west game.

Matthew (38:08):
Yeah. And I think there's a there's a secret thing
that you haven't mentionedthere. Again, talking about how

Dave (38:15):
It's possible I've forgotten something. That's for
sure.

Matthew (38:17):
Concise. Well, I don't know what the this may be an
intention of yours that youwanted that you have worded, but
not necessarily connected to thedate. You're very keen that to
kind of turn this into agenerational campaign. And

Dave (38:33):
Have the opportunity to do that. Yeah.

Matthew (38:35):
Yeah. If you start 10 years later on like I wanted,
that, you know, that that's awhole generation effectively
that you've just missed out on.Yeah. So, that might be it.

Dave (38:45):
There's definitely something in that, which is kind
of like making us giving as muchtime in the period as possible
for the players to develop,develop their campaigns and
their characters.

Matthew (38:57):
Yeah. Okay. And I've got another one for you here,
Dave. Okay. From Dumpstat Int.
Welcome to the chat, DumpstatInt.

Dave (39:06):
Hello.

Matthew (39:09):
I have a question regarding trouble. With the
chart, if you roll a 6, you moveup a column. Are you worried
that you could possibly scalefrom a column 1 to a column 4?
The curse Curse of role master.Aye.
I just extra point there,dumpster, for, for

Dave (39:29):
Remembering role master.

Matthew (39:30):
Remember role master and and indeed one of the curses
of one of the many curses of RawMaster I'm gonna tell you.

Dave (39:36):
I did enjoy Raw Master though. That was a good game. I
did enjoy it very much back inthe day. Okay. So to to answer
your question specifically, am Iworried?
No. I will I will elaborate alittle bit though. So I think
the idea that trouble can cansuddenly build up on you is is
is a is a fine thing. I think Iliked that. We originally had it

(39:59):
where you wouldn't, you know,there wasn't the opportunity to
for for a one die of trouble tobecome 2 dice of trouble in that
in that sense.
And it felt then that one die oftrouble actually isn't that much
trouble, on the whole. We havechanged the table a little bit
then to make it slightly moreinconvenient and a bit worse,

(40:23):
but it just felt like it wasn'tenough threat. So in
playtesting, players were like,one day of trouble. Yeah. I
might as well not

Matthew (40:30):
worry about it.

Dave (40:31):
Yeah. Exactly. And what what I wanted was there's still
to be that little, you know,itch of doubt in the back of
their mind that I could takethis, but actually it could get
much worse if, you know, if I'munlucky. So that's the reason
why we went for the idea thatrolling a 6 on that on that
column boosts you to the nextcolumn. I hope that

Matthew (40:54):
answers your question. And I am not worried either. I
am worried. Yes. It it mayhappen, and suddenly one dice
becomes 4 dice.
But one of the things we want toencourage people to do is to
spend is to earn faith and spendfaith on their rolls. And that
worry, as Dave says, that youmight go from 1 to 4 choice

(41:20):
worth of trouble with somereally bad roles. I think just
that little added bit ofincentive to say, yeah. I'm
gonna I'm gonna spend that pointof faith there to

Dave (41:29):
Mhmm.

Matthew (41:30):
To do that. I did have a a I think I've spoken about
this on other interviews. Idon't wanna bore people. But one
of my favorite ways of Too late.Of of paying faith was every
single one would cost you afaith point, and you'd lose your
pool really quickly.
I playtested it in 1, 2sessions. Players really hated

(41:50):
that, so we're not doing thatagain. And this So

Dave (41:53):
in principle, I like that idea as well, I thought. But
Yeah. And I was in I wasinterested to hear your player
feedback, hating it as as muchas they did.

Matthew (42:01):
But I think the sorry. Yeah.

Dave (42:04):
Go on.

Matthew (42:04):
You know, that that idea of spending extra extra
faith on buying off your roles,I think, gives us a little
flavor of that bit.

Dave (42:12):
Yeah. And I think that the risk of going from a 1 to a 4 is
very low because you could haveto roll 3 sixes. It's not
impossible, of course, but,yeah, we've all rolled a lot of
trouble, I guess, through the,you know, the the the year 0
dice have a tendency to bedifficult, don't they, I guess?
But actually it what it does dois it increases the risks that

(42:34):
you get onto the next columnparticularly, and those are a
little bit worse. So rather thanplayers, I think, fearing that
they're gonna go from column 1to column 4, I think just the
fact that we'll get that littlebit worse is is an ever present
one in 6 chance, in fact.
So

Matthew (42:52):
Cool. Andy's got another one on stretch goals.

Dave (42:57):
Okay.

Matthew (42:59):
And I think it's quite an interesting one. Is there a
stretch goal that you wanted todo but was too impractical or
too expensive to do? Now we'redoing both of the 2 impractical
and too expensive ones. Well,

Dave (43:09):
all 3, actually, but it's including the GM screen. So

Matthew (43:14):
Yes. So what we wanted to avoid with stretch goals was
stretch goals that addedcomplexity, particularly
complexity to fulfillment. Soeven though it's not massively
too expensive and people havebought it, so it's paid its
dividends already. You know, theGM screen is an extra bit of

(43:36):
faff to deal with in terms of,you know, when we get to
distribution, making sureeverybody's got the things they
wanted and stuff like that. Thereally big ones are things like
the virtual tabletop, which, youknow, particularly for Dave and
I, we knew nothing about that.
We haven't considered it at thebeginning of the campaign. We

(43:57):
wouldn't have considered it ifthe campaign hadn't been going
so well. And we definitely wouldhave considered it if we hadn't
got Paul, Paul, hi. Hi, Paul. Toguide us through it.

Dave (44:08):
Give us give us Foundry 101. And

Matthew (44:12):
offer us, you know, a decent rate that we can afford
to do it without stretch goal.So that's good. And the other
one is the solo rules. Now Mhmm.People started asking for solo
rules, and I was quite keen.
But, Dave, you weren't keen atall because of that added
complexity.

Dave (44:32):
Yeah. I think I think we again, I think this is another a
lesson learned that, becauseMatthew and I live quite a long
way away, communication tends tobe over our,

Matthew (44:43):
you know

Dave (44:44):
With a chat? Our Gmail chat stuff. And that's a really
shit way. Sorry for the languageif anybody cares. It's a really
shit way of actually havingthose kind of conversations
because you always get the wrongend of the stick or you don't
articulate it quite right.
So it's very easy to end upbutting heads. And we have done
a couple of times, over oversome of these things. And now

(45:05):
that was one of them. So myconcern was neither of us play
solo rules. I haven't even readsolo rules.
Matthew's point was a good onethat we've got a lot of stuff in
the game already that probablylends itself to solo rules. But
my fear was we're suddenly gonnahave a few weeks to to create
solo rules from scratch, andit's it was gonna be bad because

(45:28):
we're gonna be rushed. Now thatwe're gonna do it as a PDF and
then maybe get it as a hardcopy, in a future campaign, that
takes some of the pressure offbecause we've got a bit more
time to actually, you know, talkto people who know about doing
solo rules, learn a little bitmore about it before we then put
them together. But that nuancewas lost in the text. So it

(45:50):
became a that was why I was veryreluctant

Matthew (45:53):
It would be a PDF, and it would be delivered
potentially after the otherdeliveries. I'm curious

Dave (45:58):
I was always thinking that we were telling to put it into
the book, which gave us a monthto write it. Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew (46:03):
That is true.

Dave (46:03):
Why I was expecting the idea.

Matthew (46:05):
I mean, it might be lovely to have in the book in an
ideal world, but it isn't athing we'd even considered when
we were putting the campaigntogether and actually, you know,
budgeting the book and andillustrations and things like
that. So it can't go in thebook. I it just can't. And I
think we'd be we, you know,we've been very strict with

(46:26):
ourselves on that, and and yet,you know, we're we're still not
there. I'm I'm kind ofguaranteeing that solo rules are
here.
They're not yet, but I willpoint out. Maybe this is the
right time to point out. I'mjust gonna put the banner up
again for anybody who might belistening. There are 4, count

(46:47):
them, 4 magnificent 7 bids,left. And if if if one person if
if 4 people bought at thatmagnificent level, magnificent 7
level, that would get us throughsolo rules.
So It would. You really wantsolo rules, you know what you
can do to the whole community.That's why you're

Dave (47:11):
called back off

Matthew (47:11):
And maybe don't worry about it. You know, we've got
another 6 days to go, so wewe'll probably get there.

Dave (47:18):
No. No. To answer Mohammed's question, Toto
Cookbook, no. You're absolutelyright. There will be no Tales of
the Old West Cookbook.

Matthew (47:27):
I did I did I was thinking suggesting that in one
of our chats, Dave, actually.

Dave (47:32):
Like a like a chuckwagon book. You know? Yeah.

Matthew (47:34):
Yeah. Exactly. But I but I said that this would never
get delivered until we'd we'dbecome an entirely different
massive company. Yeah. And Yeah.
And then we'd bring out a littlebumpers at the end of it just
for our Swedish backers. Forthose who don't know the story,
Free League for the Swedishversion of Coriolis had made a
stretch goal of

Dave (47:56):
A cookbook.

Matthew (47:57):
Coster Castoolis writing a Coriolis cookbook.
And, they were laughing about ita bit when we first went to
interview them years ago. Deep.

Dave (48:09):
Yeah.

Matthew (48:11):
And, yeah, almost it's just did you say 2015, that was?
20

Dave (48:15):
17.

Matthew (48:16):
17.

Dave (48:16):
Yeah. 2017. Still 7 years ago.

Matthew (48:19):
Yeah. 7 years ago, they were laughing about it as a
thing that's was still, waitingto be fulfilled, and I think
they have only this last yearfulfilled it. Yeah. So we've
we've taken in relation to the,great dark thing when we when we
introduced Costas.

Dave (48:36):
Yeah. He

Matthew (48:37):
I don't think he thought it was that funny,
actually.

Dave (48:40):
No. I think it's I think it was it's it's not been a joke
for them for a long time now. Sobut yeah. So that so free leads
experience with things like thatwas one of the things that,
again, made us want to keep thisas simple as possible. So we
would maximize our chances offulfilling, to the schedule that
we are committing ourselves to.
Yeah.

Matthew (49:00):
Right. I got another one from Bruce. Shall we talk
about the second one from Bruce?

Dave (49:05):
Okay. Yep.

Matthew (49:07):
So, I think I think Bruce really so the second and
the third, he's being verypolite about this, but he said
he how do we address thechallenge of recreating the 18
seventies west? And I thinkwe've talked about this before
in in comments and stuff likethat, but it might be worth

(49:30):
verbalizing it again here.

Dave (49:32):
Yeah. For sure. Yeah. The key thing is, is being, being
honest and true to the historyof the time, being respectful of
that history, not whitewashingit, not falling into stereotypes
that may well have beenentrenched over the years
through different media. Makingsure that the opportunity to

(49:57):
tell the tales of those peopleand those communities in an open
and honest way, kind ofrecognising how nasty some of
the history really was, but alsonot encouraging people to revel
in that history, but trying toencourage people to understand
it a little bit better and maybeexplore some of those things in,

(50:19):
in the games that they play.
And it's, you know, it's not ablack and white history. It's,
you know, let let's take forexample, you know, Native
Americans, and the history ofNative Americans. Now we had one
commenter who's saying, youknow, Native Americans were the
enemy. They did some horriblethings. They were very vicious.
And, you know, we're ruling, youknow, the plains of the west for

(50:44):
for a long, long time. And andyes, you know, you can't get
away from the fact that therewas a lot of internecine trouble
between different NativeAmerican communities. There was
a lot of war, you know, therewere killings, there were slaves
taken, pretty grim, pretty nastystuff. But the period that we're
looking at, you know, the periodof the expansion into the West

(51:05):
is a story of that ever, evergrowing pressure from the east
displacing and using theimbalance of power to, you know,
effectively dispossess many,many parts of that community or,
you know, all of all of thatcommunity over the years. And
again, so the history is there,you can't escape it.

(51:27):
But we wanna step away from thethe the whitewash of the of the
myth and look beneath that theactual stories that are that are
going on. And so far, I think inthe playtesting we've done,
where I think there's anotherquestion from from Raspberry
Roan, which is very much onthis, on this theme. All the

(51:51):
everyone we've had in ourplaytest has come at it with the
right kind of respectfulattitude, wanting to explore
these things and not wanting torevel or joke about them. And
it's, it's it's worked verywell. And in the writing of the
book, we are doing our levelbest to encourage exactly that
approach, you know, about all ofthe all of the difficult parts

(52:14):
of that of that history.
I don't know if you want to addsomething to that.

Matthew (52:17):
Yeah. Well, I think, you know, maybe it's worth
talking a little bit aboutRalphie Rowan's question there,
because I think that is aninteresting one. Has anybody had
issues in playtesting withplaying Native American,
Mexican, or recently emancipatedblack slave? In playtesting, I

(52:41):
don't think so. The the othergroup, your local group, I mean,
I I'm playing a, I don'tactually know whether I've been
emancipated or whether I wasborn free, but my character is
is black in the campaign thatyou run.
Yep. And we have addressed that,and we've addressed the civil
war, and we've addressed, aterrible real historical

(53:05):
incident that, that took place.And Dave wove that story around
some of the other playercharacters and things like that.
And, we unpacked that. And thatwas quite an interesting game,
actually, that I quite enjoyed.
What I'm not doing, though, as aplayer is I'm I'm not

(53:30):
particularly playing black. I'mnot, you know, I'm not relying
on stereotypes about how I seeblack people behave in movies.
I'm still me. My characterthough is perceived as black in
the game world, and I haven'tyou know? And I think we do have
some advice, particularly onplaying, native American Indians

(53:53):
because because we started thesensitivity journey early Yes.
Years ago. And, we we talkedabout in in in the first bit of
text that we sent, this isJordan, a sensitive some

(54:15):
sensitivity we do, don't haveany problem with us saying, you
know, she's part black and partnative. And she was saying, you
know, there's I reallyappreciate that you're trying to
get people to play sort ofoutside the the the stereotypes
and and things, but, you know,there is a thing like people

(54:36):
making up Native American namesthat sound funny and things like
that that could actually bequite offensive. And it would be
better if she said, you know,lots of lots of Native Americans
at the time just adopted Anglicnames.

Dave (54:52):
Or or or or I think in more cases, we're forced to
adopt Anglicite.

Matthew (54:56):
Yes. But but she was kind of happier that we did that
rather than encourage people to,you know, make Yeah.

Dave (55:02):
So so I think it's it's a really it's a really important
question because what we youknow, once somebody's got the
game in their hands, what wecan't do is stop them
fictionalizing a, you know, anative American name. But, you
know, if if somebody wants tocall their character Crazy
Horse, you know, we can't stopthem. What we can do though and
what we have done and spentquite a lot of column inches in

(55:23):
the book trying to explore isgiving them some background
about the history, giving somebackground about where those
names come from and the kind ofthe cultural power and, you
know, how sacred some of thosenames, are. And then encouraging
them to not only try and learn abit more about it for
themselves, but to treat thosenames refer respectfully. So

(55:45):
that if they want to choose aname that is fictionalizing some
of those naming conventions, youknow, they should do so, but do
so mindfully and respectfully,and not, you know, not kind of
inadvertently, you know,disrespect them almost by
ignoring them entirely as well.
So there's a balance to be foundthen hopefully hopefully, we

(56:06):
struck that right kind ofbalance. But, you know, I think,
you know, Raspberry Roan, itcould be a stumbling block for
some players. And I think thereare certainly some people we've
spoken to in the, in the US forwhom the history is a little bit
too close to home. And it it itmeans for them, this isn't a
game they would want to play,which is fine. I mean, there's a

(56:28):
lot of people in the US we'vespoken to who are very keen and
very interested to get involvedand and get into the game.
But it yeah. I think, you know,if it's not for you, it's not
for you. Absolutely. If youdon't want to explore this
history, then, you know, you youprobably don't want to be
playing Tales of the Old West.And that's fine.
That's great. But for thosepeople and I think a lot of

(56:50):
people coming to the game mightnot know quite so in-depth some
of the history that that, youknow, others know. Hopefully, by
playing the game, we open thedoor to seeing some of that and
might spark an interest thatgets them to go off and do some
more reading and some moreexploration of the real history
for themselves.

Matthew (57:08):
Yeah. And in fact, in terms of issues that we've had
in playtesting, we we we havehad one one person who picked up
a character that was actually awhite character, but they've
done some pretty terrible thingsin the past, and that was
actually the thing they had moreof a problem with.

Dave (57:28):
Yeah.

Matthew (57:29):
Now I'd I'd like to think that of all our
characters, we're I don't knowactually about some of the
characters in your playtest,Dave, but we're trying to better
ourselves in in our group ofplaytesters. We're all trying to
even even even the character whowas a Confederate soldier soul
soldier is trying to be betterthan he was. And I'd

Dave (57:52):
love that behind it.

Matthew (57:53):
Of our player characters will play like that,
rather than celebrate thecruelty that their characters
might have done.

Dave (58:00):
Yeah. So

Matthew (58:01):
that's that's the thing as well. I I hope people don't
take the game. As you say, wecan't control the game when it's
in other people's hands, but I'mI'm really hoping that they
don't use it to to celebratesome of that quality.

Dave (58:15):
Yeah. And we've gone to some lengths to try and, you
know, encourage that and try andgive some of the background,
some of the history. Andhopefully, we've got the balance
right. As you said in, you know,in in some of the opening
statements we've got both in thequick draw and in the core book,
you know, we're keen to learn.You know, we wanna get this
right.
This is supposed to be fun, andit's also, you know, hopefully,

(58:38):
a little bit educational aswell, but that's not the key
point. It is a game and

Matthew (58:43):
Oh, which reminds me of another question of cruises, I
think, would be a good one. Orit's not one that you listed. Do
we have a reading list?

Dave (58:52):
Yes. We do. We have a very extensive reading list,
actually. Yeah. I haven't got itup at the moment.
I could put I could pull it upand read you through some of it.
But, yeah, we've got, yeah,loads. I mean, I I was a I'm a
historian by by training. I didhistory at university, not the
Wild West, frankly. Oh, Rome,for anyone who knows me though.

(59:15):
I bore them to death on Romanhistory. But I've had an
enduring, interest in all ofthis stuff, and I've been in a,
you know, a a avid amateurscholar of the the old west for
years. So, you know, we havedone a lot of work and a lot of
research, a lot of reading. So,I mean, again, hopefully, we
are, you know, we are amateurscholars, but hopefully, we're

(59:36):
quite well informed amateurscholars.

Matthew (59:40):
So here's here's another question. And I'm, a
it's a follow-up question fromfrom Rosby Rowan again. And
these are great questions,Rowan. So, so feel free to carry
on asking them, but I think it'sa good one. Claims will be
playing your game online, and Iknow there's a Mexican character
in there.
And in fact, I've seen thatscenario played before. Oh, that

(01:00:04):
scenario? No. Not necessarilythat scenario. I can't remember.
But there's a there's a Mexicanperson there. And I think your
question here is, they're UK. Ifplaying a Mexican, how can they
make that character come aliveas if playing yourself as as

(01:00:24):
Matthew said? And I think Ithink there's some there's some
great stuff, actually. How aboutno.
It's upstairs. But I think Ilearned a lot about playing
people from from from othercultures, from, Chris Spivey's
great book, the Cthulhucampaign, which I can't call

(01:00:46):
Shadows Over Harlem. It's notcalled Shadows Over Harlem.
What's it called?

Dave (01:00:52):
I won't read those.

Matthew (01:00:53):
Help me. That one. Mhmm. Anyway, he talks a lot
about, you know, don't, as Isaid before, don't stereotype
the character. Don't don't startspeaking, I don't know, like
Manuel out of 40 Towers whenyou're playing the Mexican.
For a start, I think

Dave (01:01:12):
Hold on, man.

Matthew (01:01:13):
We're crap at accents, aren't we? And and for years,
our tables for 30, 40 years havebeen pretty crap at accents. So
doing accents isn't a thing thatwe

Dave (01:01:26):
That we do. That we've

Matthew (01:01:27):
ever really done and we don't expect people to do. And I
think that's one of the thingsthat can go wrong when you're
playing somebody from adifferent culture. But we've
given all of these charactersbig dreams and backgrounds that
I think can be quite compelling.I think if you play from the
point of view of that character,you don't have to put on a silly

(01:01:47):
accent or wear a sombrero tomake your Mexican character come
alive.

Dave (01:01:56):
So, yeah. So I I I agree. Yeah. Yeah. I think that makes
sense.
Obviously, Raspy Rowan will bethe one who'll decide whether it
really makes sense. But yeah.And I I think it's, again, if if
if somebody sits down and theyget a they roll up a character
who is who is Mexican or AfricanAmerican or whatever it might
be, or they get a pre gencharacter that is that, you

(01:02:18):
know, I hope it makes them a bitcurious about, you know, the
culture behind that characterand where they come from. And
and, you know, I think that's agood thing. If we can get people
curious about that kind ofquestion, then that will
definitely help them whenthey're, you know, playing the
character to avoid foolishstereotypes, which, which we
want to avoid.

(01:02:39):
And,

Matthew (01:02:41):
Andy's coming there with, the book's called Harlem
Unbound. You're right. You'retotally right.

Dave (01:02:46):
That's Look, everyone's come in with Harlem Unbound.
Interesting.

Matthew (01:02:50):
And Frank also said that, but it also more
importantly, Frank says thatyou're running a game tomorrow
that's gonna be streamed on hischannel. Do you

Dave (01:02:59):
wanna tell us something about

Matthew (01:03:00):
that, Dave?

Dave (01:03:01):
Yeah. So this is, this is a scenario called biting the
dust in Albuquerque where theplayer characters are sort of
down on their luck. People whohave ended up at a, at a mining
camp under the control of a,yeah, threatening, intimidating

(01:03:21):
boss. And they are asked to goand do something on his behalf.
And as the name suggests, theymight end up in Albuquerque.
In fact, this scenario mightstart in Albuquerque. But yeah.
So there's, yeah. On Frank'schannel, tomorrow, 7:30 start.
And, yeah, it should be goodfun, hopefully.

Matthew (01:03:43):
And Frank's channel, we should say, is Raldanash like
his username in the comments?Now, I'm just

Dave (01:03:53):
So I've

Matthew (01:03:53):
now

Dave (01:03:54):
I've so I've now pulled up a few of the, the the reading
list. So I'll just check out afew that I I think I
particularly enjoyed reading, orwere particularly, helpful. So,
impressions of an Indianchildhood by Sutkala Saar. That
was very, very interestinginsight. Black Elk Speaks is an

(01:04:17):
excellent one as well.
Very, very good firsthandaccount of of of, of his life
and the life of the people thathe knew when he was very young.
And there's a lot on on NativeAmericans. River of blood is a
good one about American slavery.Again, it looks at it from the
point of view of personaltestimony of of some of those

(01:04:38):
people. And there's another one,Uncle Tom's story of his life,
which is by, a man called JosiahHenson, who who was a slave.
He ran away to Canada in about18/30 and then became a a
preacher. And again, it's avery, very interesting insight
into, into the the slave lifethat he experienced. And, but

(01:05:02):
yeah. So that's just a tinytaste of of some of the books
that we've been drawing upon andand using to inform, inform our
decision making.

Matthew (01:05:13):
And tying in with that and, tying in with Andy's
question here, you've obviouslydone a lot of research on
setting period. What was themost unexpected and surprising
thing that I learned? And Ithink Cult of Glory, which is
another book that we might havein in in the list

Dave (01:05:29):
It's it's on the list. Yeah.

Matthew (01:05:31):
Is is one that totally changed what I thought the Texas
Rangers were. I don't wannaspoil it for you, but, but,
yeah, it it's not a great read.I mean, it's a great read.

Dave (01:05:45):
It is. It was a Great. Yeah. The the subtitle is the
bold and brutal history of theTexas Rangers. And that gives
you a gives you a sense of whatmight be, what might be included
in there.
Yeah. I'm I'm not sure for me. Imean, I I always knew that the
the the the, the European strokeUS approach to the Native

(01:06:10):
Americans was, you know, waspretty grim. Perhaps when I
first started really gettinginto it, I didn't quite realize
quite how grim it actually was.But then, you know, I mean,
human history has got a lot ofgrim stuff.
If you wanna read somethingthat's really grim, read a
history of the East IndiaCompany. Now that is I mean I

(01:06:30):
mean, it's terrible whathappened, in in the west and in,
you know, continental NorthAmerica as a whole. In fact, you
know, in the 33 or 400 yearsbefore the time we're setting
our game. But the East IndiaCompany seemed to do be very,
very talented at doing reallyshitty things. Anyway, don't

(01:06:52):
it's gonna get everyone reallydepressed about, human history.
But,

Matthew (01:06:58):
that's maybe why so many people like to play games
where they don't have to behuman. Right. Okay. Here's a
good one, from Jed. Welcome,Jed, to the chat.
What is a good way to preparefor a campaign as we wait for
May 2025 to roll around?

Dave (01:07:19):
It's a very good question. Well, for me, I'd say research,
do some reading. Now I get, youknow, the ideas that I get for
the camp the playtest campaignthat I'm running, a lot of that
comes from from the reading thatI've done. So the the sort of
scenario that Matt used to spokeabout earlier, which had the

(01:07:39):
which harped back to the civilwar came out of some research I
was doing around the civil war.And that gave me the idea of of
this place called Fort Pillow,where some terrible things
happened.
And that gave me the idea forthe for the scenario, in in that
particular case. Tied in as wellwith Andy's character because
his character was trying toleave all that behind and had

(01:08:01):
ended up fighting on the wrongside in the war. And, it was
Despite

Matthew (01:08:07):
being from an abolitionist family, he he he's
always very keen to tell us.

Dave (01:08:11):
Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. But he ended up fighting for the
Confederates.
But, so that was great. But thatcomes from from a bit of
reading. I think Paul Watson,Paul's comment in the, in the
chat is a great one. WatchedEdward. I think it's fabulous.
I mean, if you haven't seen it,you probably have already, but
watch deadwood. 3 seasons ofdeadwood, and then the movie

(01:08:33):
that topped it off. Yeah. Imean, it's brilliant. I, Yeah.
I've yeah. I wanna sit down andwatch it all again myself, but I
don't have the time at themoment. But

Matthew (01:08:44):
Yeah. No. I I think so. And I tell you what we I think
I've just had an idea, whicheverybody's hearing for the
first time here. We've talkedabout this reading list that
we've we've created.
Obviously, it's gonna be in thebook, But it it's not our words.
I think we should potentiallytake that excerpt out, put that
reading list on our website.

Dave (01:09:04):
Yeah. Absolutely.

Matthew (01:09:05):
If people wanna follow Jud's example and prepare for
the campaign, then then they canhave a look through some of
those books as well. We've justsent that reading list, off

Dave (01:09:18):
In that chat. So yeah.

Matthew (01:09:19):
Bunch of other text to our sensitivity reader. Maybe
we'll wait, till mid October forher to return that. She might
have some other ideas to add tothat maybe.

Dave (01:09:32):
Yeah.

Matthew (01:09:33):
So maybe maybe mid October, we'll book that reading
list out on the website, andpeople can get tucked in if they
want to. And says watch 1883 aswell, and I would recommend that
very heartily. I thoroughlyenjoyed that. Says, are you

(01:09:57):
making a a licensed Deadwoodgame next? And at one point, I
did say to Dave, maybe we shouldjust find out who owns the
rights to Deadwood.
Stick to Deadwood's name on thetop of this.

Dave (01:10:09):
Well, it's it's funny you should say that. Not that we are
about to do that, but I, Ihaven't been able to go. But
there was a there was alicensing convention down in
London this week, which is freefor people like me to go to. And
if I hadn't have been busy withtaking my dog to chemo and other
domestic stuff, then I wouldhave gone. But, the idea that

(01:10:34):
crossed my mind that we could doan expansion, which is Deadwood,
and then the license it andbrand it as Deadwood.
And then it'll be interesting tosee how many more people that
would pull in and what yeah. Howmuch interest that would gather.

Matthew (01:10:49):
2.

Dave (01:10:50):
Yeah.

Matthew (01:10:50):
Maybe. Maybe, Frank.

Dave (01:10:53):
Who knows? Space. Yeah.

Matthew (01:11:01):
Okay. Here we've got another one. How is it that some
guys in London are making an oldwest game? Can I can I be can I
can I say this? I I also noticedearlier on or or indeed England.
You're right. We're not quiteLondon is what it says on the

(01:11:24):
Kickstarter, but, Dave and I areon opposite sides of London and
just outside it.

Dave (01:11:30):
Yeah.

Matthew (01:11:31):
But, yeah, I think I think we've got to admit that
there is obviously a mythologyaround the old west that I think
maybe Europeans take more totheir hearts than Americans do.
If you think about spaghettiwesterns, Roudenash mentioned

(01:11:53):
Lucky Luc, which is a a Frenchcomic strip. There's also
lieutenant blueberry orlieutenant blueberry, I should
say, which, is by Mobius, thesame guy, a very famous French
comic writer. I think in a way,cowboys can be a bit of a

(01:12:15):
fantasy for Europeans who are,you know, just removed from it
by by an ocean and half acontinent. It it it takes on a a
meaning that maybe doesn't comewith necessarily all the baggage
of people that are actuallythere.
So I think that's why peoplefrom Europe start doing things.

(01:12:37):
And I keep meaning, and I willtry and find the link to a
brilliant YouTube thing fromHugo Blick who wrote, a great,
cowboy TV series called TheEnglish. Sorry. I I didn't mean
to press that one. Which one amI pressing?
Good one. I'm glad

Dave (01:12:56):
you're on the way home, Bruce. Excellent.

Matthew (01:13:00):
And he writes about what what cowboys mean, I think,
for him as an Englishman, and Ithink that's quite an
interesting thing to watch aswell.

Dave (01:13:10):
Yeah. So I think it comes back to to something you said
earlier, Matt, but I'm kind offorgetting what it was now. But

Matthew (01:13:18):
You forget a lot of the stuff I say. Like when I said,
we wouldn't put the blippin'solo rules in the book.

Dave (01:13:25):
Indeed. I think, you know, we we've we've we've always had
an enduring interest as I saidearlier about the Wild West.
More than once, we've tried toget Wild West game together. You
know, I I created one once many,many years ago. We played things
like, Boot Hill and Aces andEights, but it never really
stuck.
We're never interested in thesupernatural side of dead,

(01:13:47):
Deadlands just wasn't somethingwe were interested in. And it's
it's taken a long time to get tothe point where, you know, where
we've we've we've now createdcreated this game. I think, you
know, as as Matthew says that,you know, there are perhaps some
people in the in the US who aregonna be too close to the
history to find it eitherinteresting or palatable, that

(01:14:07):
want to play. So that remove, Ithink maybe makes it a bit
easier for us to get stuck inperhaps. But also we're coming
at it as I said earlier, withrespecting the history with, you
know, enjoying the mythology,but wanting to take away the,
you know, the the stereotypesthat that come with all of that.
So hopefully, again, as I saidbefore, we try to get the

(01:14:29):
balance right, and, you'll allbe the, you know, you'll all be
the arbiters of how well we'vedone that. But hopefully, we've,
we've got it right. We've workedquite hard to try and do that.

Matthew (01:14:40):
We're we're coming thick and fast with questions
here, but then another one herefrom Wizards of the Tower,
which, I I can quote, how easyand how deadly and how easy will
the gunfights be? We're quiteproud of this, aren't we, Dave?

Dave (01:14:57):
They're gonna be very

Matthew (01:14:58):
easy and very deadly.

Dave (01:15:00):
Yeah. Yeah. So, gun yeah. Gunfights tend to be short, as,
you know, as as you mightexpect. The the the trick in the
game, if you get into a bit intoa gunfight, is to put the other
guy down as quickly as you can.
We have mechanics in the gamethat, you know, your your weapon
will have a crit value. That'sthe number of successes you need

(01:15:24):
after your first in order toinflict a crit on your enemy,
and people do tend to go forthat because you wanna put the
man down. You wanna stop the guyshooting back at you because one
shot can kill you as we foundout in in the play tests. So
yeah. That, you know, they aredeadly.
They are fast. They we do addsome things to try and improve

(01:15:44):
the kind of authenticity of thefeel of how they work. So when I
went to, Tabletop Scotland, Ibought this for a bit of fun,
just a prop to to play aroundwith. It's it's really rubbish,
but it was brilliant inexplaining to people about how
single and double action gunswork, and we tried to recreate

(01:16:07):
that in the game. Your singleaction gun takes you longer to
use because you've got toprepare it.
You've got to pull the pull thehammer back, but then you get a
slight bonus on your attackbecause then the trigger is
really light. So you're nothaving to pull it really hard
like you do with a double actiongun to get the get the weapon to
fire. So things like that, wetry and wrap in, but we haven't
made it clunky. We haven't madeit crunchy, and that seems to

(01:16:30):
work really well. People seem toget the hang of that very
quickly.

Matthew (01:16:33):
Yeah. And, an ancillary question from Paul here, and
it's an important one becausehe's building out virtual
tabletop, so he needs to knowthis. Are we planning to add
some sort of gear dice to weaponstats? No. We're not.

Dave (01:16:47):
So there are bonus dice to weapon stats, but it's not gear
dice.

Matthew (01:16:51):
Yeah. They just

Dave (01:16:52):
add your call

Matthew (01:16:53):
originally think about using gear dice like they have
in Forbidden Lands and and inoriginal, Mutant Year 0. But we
quickly wanted to simplify that.

Dave (01:17:07):
Yeah.

Matthew (01:17:08):
So, yeah, you you you get extra dice when you shoot
with a particular weapon. Youmight get extra dice when you
shoot or hit with a particularweapon, but you're not
necessarily singling those diceout. So the only different dice
you have in your pool are thetrouble dice that we've
previously mentioned.

Dave (01:17:28):
Yeah. So so your weapon, particularly pistols, will have
an attack bonus, although itmight be a negative possibly,
and a draw bonus or potentiallya negative. And the draw bonus,
is is the bonus you get when youare, as the name suggests,
trying to draw your gun in ahurry in the middle of a of a
duel or a situation that isbasically the same as a duel

(01:17:50):
where you've come across anenemy. You both know you're
about to shoot each other, butyou haven't drawn any guns yet.
So you might wanna select yourweapon to be quick on the draw
and slightly worse in terms ofaccuracy or accept that you
might be a bit slower, but knowthat you'll probably hit the guy
more likely.
So we've got tactical questionslike that for you as a player to

(01:18:11):
decide about what gun your yourcharacter wants to use.

Matthew (01:18:16):
And a kind of related to that, it's not just guns.
Another one from Wizards of theTower. Will there be melee fist
fights, knives, swipes, I'mguessing that is? Or maybe it's
it's wipes in the in the in thecinematic sense.

Dave (01:18:31):
Yeah. Maybe. Yeah.

Matthew (01:18:32):
I'll I'll ask Zoro. And, yes, there are full melee
rules as well, and that caninclude swords. I think Zorro is
a little bit early for ourperiod. I mean, obviously, he's
an invention of the early 20thcentury, but he's set when I
don't know.

Dave (01:18:51):
I don't know, actually. I Yeah. WIPs, not wipes.

Matthew (01:18:57):
WIPs. Yeah.

Dave (01:18:58):
But you do have the opportunity to use a WIP. Yes.
If you wish. Lassings as wellnaturally enough. So, yeah, so
we so we have your rangedconflict, you have your fighting
conflict, and then we also havesocial conflict.
So we've tried to make socialconflict a bit more involved.
You know, if you're trying topersuade someone, it's not

(01:19:19):
necessarily just making one rollof your dice, and then they
either go yes or they punch you.There's a mechanic there where
you effectively have a combatbetween you and them whilst
you're trying to eitherintimidate them or browbeat them
depending on the skill you wannause, or you're trying to
persuade them or charm them, andyou can damage their stats that
are relevant to their, like,mental and social, attributes.

(01:19:43):
So you can break somebody in asocial conflict. And if you do
that, they'll either get angryand turn the table over and
storm out, or they might, youknow, become very doubtful and,
you know, lose the lose theconflict that way.
So those are the 3 types ofconflict, but we're all trying
to make them all because becauseshooting each other is so
dangerous. We wanna make thesocial conflict engaging and

(01:20:07):
fun, and not just one dice roll,because that's gonna happen a
bit more regularly if yourplayers are being a bit cautious
about drawing their weapons.

Matthew (01:20:18):
And wizards, of the tower has, has confirmed Yeah.
Is a bit early for our period,18 forties to 18 fifties. But I
think it's also worth saying,and it touched back on an
earlier question that I probablycan't find now to to put on the
board, but somebody said, whatare we gonna do next in terms of

(01:20:38):
supplements? I think that wasAndy asking that. I can't quite
see

Dave (01:20:42):
it now.

Matthew (01:20:44):
And I think, you know, we have discussed focusing on
other so we've got new NewMexico in the core book, but,
obviously, there's loads ofother, geographies and climates
and, cultures across the westthat could be worth unpacking.

(01:21:05):
And there's things like when wevery first the first day or 2
that we started talking aboutthis game, Dave and I were
thinking it might be a sort ofOregon Trail sort of game. So
all of that is in the mix, andand that means not just other
geographies and other parts ofthe west in the 18 seventies. It

(01:21:27):
may move forward and back intime as well as so I I can
envisage that each let us saycampaign book. I don't know
quite what format we're gonnawe're gonna make them.
But each each campaign bookwould focus on a particular part
of the country, but alsopotentially a different part of
the history.

Dave (01:21:47):
Of the period. Yeah.

Matthew (01:21:48):
Of the period. Yeah. Yeah. So

Dave (01:21:53):
We'll we'll we'll let you know as soon as, as soon as
we've we've kind of, you know,nailed down on what it is we
wanna be doing next. But, Yeah.

Matthew (01:22:01):
I've gotta say if if I were going if we were going to
publish a Zorro style,obviously, somebody else has got
a license to Zorro. But if wewere gonna look at California in
the 18 forties or, you know, orin the Spanish bit of the
southwest, I'd be looking atgetting somebody closer to that
culture to write that, and, youknow, we'd we'd help them write

(01:22:23):
that and turn it into a greatbook, actually. I'd yeah. I I'd
whereas, whereas I can do thethe the Anglic, colonist
experience because we areEnglish, I think there there's
some interesting stuff that I'dlike to encourage other voices
getting. Yes.

(01:22:44):
Yeah. That. So What otherquestions

Dave (01:22:52):
do we have?

Matthew (01:22:52):
Yeah. What I now we're having a discussion about Zoho.

Dave (01:22:59):
Yeah. So so so I think I think California, by the 18
fifties, was part of the US. Ithink it was 1848 when it became
part of the US after the, USMexican War, and the, the Treaty
of, Guadal Hidalgo. I know thatI don't remember it properly.

(01:23:20):
But that that gave swathes ofwhat was Mexican territory, to
the to the US after the, afterthe war.

Matthew (01:23:28):
And and just, to having, quoted wizard's
questions quite a lot, it'sworth pointing out what wizard
says. They're a channel. I'mguessing here on YouTube,
Wizards of the Town. And youtalk RP games, and you love the
old western plan on doing,episode based on several old
west games like Aces and Eights,Boot Hill, and Frontier Scum.

(01:23:51):
I've got Frontier Scum, and alittle secret here.
Dave wasn't keen on the idea,but I was keen on making the
book feel a bit like an old westartifact. And in fact, they they
wanted a big fancy you know, aproper role playing book, and I
went along with him. And I wasquite pleased then that we
haven't gone down my routebecause we'd have been beaten to

(01:24:13):
that by Frontier

Dave (01:24:14):
Skin scum. Yeah.

Matthew (01:24:15):
Did the pasteboard book the way I wanted to do it. So
Mhmm. So just as well, we're notdoing that. And, yeah, we could
be apart. Okay.

Dave (01:24:29):
Yes, please. Yeah.

Matthew (01:24:30):
We'll we'll we'll we'll look into that. We

Dave (01:24:33):
Yeah. That'd be cool. We'll

Matthew (01:24:35):
we'll seek you out and, have a conversation about that.
I don't know what that's about.Sorry. I'm getting, You're just
slamming the chat now

Dave (01:24:45):
is what you're doing.

Matthew (01:24:46):
With the dog the tower. But that's I'll let you guys
talk about that. Saul has neverheard of Frontier Scum. It it's
it's a it's a kind of mork boggystyle western book. It looks
lovely.
Well, it looks lovely to mebecause it's the book that I
wanted to make, but,

Dave (01:25:07):
it it's we are making looks lovely. Cool.

Matthew (01:25:14):
Right. And the wizards is correcting, it's correcting.
And, cool.

Dave (01:25:20):
Wizards of the tower role play. Nice.

Matthew (01:25:22):
I have

Dave (01:25:22):
to look out for that.

Matthew (01:25:25):
Saul, I have to say, has written one of our campaign
tales. He was one of our stretchgoals earlier on or part of one
of our stretch goals. So it'sgood to see you, Saul.

Dave (01:25:33):
Welcome. Yep. Absolutely. Saul was one of our one of our
guest writers, which, whichagain has been great. So we I, I
put out a few requests, to somesome, know, some people, and
they all said yes.
It's like, okay. I didn't expectI expected half of them to go, a
bit busy. Sorry. But no, theyall went yes. And so we've got

(01:25:55):
I'm not sure what the total isnow.
14, I think, guest writers inthe book. So that's fabulous,
and it's looking forward toseeing seeing the work that they
put together.

Matthew (01:26:05):
Well, we've got 2 minutes left. And, another
question from Jed that I I thinkis worth unpacking a little bit.
Jed says, are Asian characterscovered? Chinese exclusion act
was after 18, 73. And, yes, infact, what we've tried to do,
particularly in our life pathcouch generation system, is

(01:26:29):
create a system where there's achance I mean, it's it's
weighted towards, the peopleyou, you know, that were were
closest to West.
But there is a chance you couldbe encouraged to play somebody
from literally anywhere else onthe globe. Now we're not forcing

(01:26:50):
people into a particular culturewith any of these things. We
talk about this is the place youcame from, and then we give you
some backgrounds and things likethat that you could be living in
that place. But, yeah,definitely, we want to encourage
people if they if they want toto be able to play Asian
characters. Yeah.
Again, you know, and it's allabout you know, here's a very
real part of history in terms ofthe, you know, the Chinese

(01:27:12):
exclusion act, which is just outand out racism. Yeah. I mean,
it's it's looking for playercharacters to be victims of that
sort of prejudice. Because as wesay, by sheer dint of the fact
that you're a player characterin a role playing game, you're
extraordinary. So you rise abovethe limitations that might be

(01:27:33):
being placed on you by by othercultures.

Dave (01:27:36):
I think it's an interesting one because, yeah,
again, having looked into intothe history a little bit,
particularly of of Chineseimmigrants into into the west.
There's I mean, one, there'sless source material out there.
So there's so, you know, it's abit harder to get into the to
the real meat of the of thehistory. But again, it's it's

(01:27:57):
the it's a history of prejudice.It's a history of, of jealousy
of, you know, or as we have now,people not trusting immigrants
because they don't know them andthey they they believe that
they're coming and doing themharm, in one way or another.
So so, yeah, we're trying to,again, draw out some of that
history in the, you know, in thechapter that talks about all of

(01:28:19):
this stuff to try and givepeople a better feel for, you
know, for where you know, forfor the actual story of the
people who really lived thoselives back in the west and
hopefully try to expose some ofthat and help play some of that.

Matthew (01:28:35):
And, I and people are having a bit of fun with, the
tune. We're we're notencouraging people to play
ninjas even though that there ishistorical evidence that there
were ninjas in the 18 seventies.I won't say they ever talked to

(01:28:57):
that one, but you can listen tothe song that fronted at, at
your place.

Dave (01:29:03):
For such a long time. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't quite
strike the gritty tone for meanymore. But

Matthew (01:29:11):
yeah. I did I did think about actually sticking it on
the front of this video, Dave,but,

Dave (01:29:18):
I'm quite glad

Matthew (01:29:18):
you I I saved you that humiliation. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
And I think it's time to saygoodbye to all our friends and,
backers and potential backerswho might have enjoyed us and
even to people that weren't herein the chat but are listening to
this later on.
If Yep. You are watching thisand it's the first time you've

(01:29:42):
heard about this and there'sstill 7 days and and and in the
next 7 days after this

Dave (01:29:49):
was done, then October 3rd, 2024 at 1600 British
summertime. That is when thecampaign ends.

Matthew (01:29:57):
And what we, might do is run a I don't know whether
we'll get a little livestreamthere. I'll be in Germany. So if
we livestream, I might belivestreaming live from, Mhmm.
But we might do something aroundthat

Dave (01:30:16):
beer top. Maybe?

Matthew (01:30:18):
Maybe. I don't know. Yeah.

Dave (01:30:19):
It might be quite nice to mark mark the end, mind it?

Matthew (01:30:23):
Mind it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Goodbye.

Dave (01:30:27):
Thank you so much everyone for for coming on and asking all
the great questions. And, I hopeyou found it interesting and
informative. And, yeah. Soanything else for you to say,
Matthew?

Matthew (01:30:40):
No. But I do just wanna say if you're German and you
wanna hear the game played inGerman, then, there's Frank's
running a game in German onSaturday.

Dave (01:30:49):
And it might be the first foreign stream. Yes. I think

Matthew (01:30:52):
it might be. Will be.

Dave (01:30:53):
Well, the first non English language stream anyway.
So

Matthew (01:30:58):
Okay. And thanks, McGuim. We haven't heard from
you before, but it was a realpleasure. And cheers to you too.
And goodbye, everybody.

Dave (01:31:06):
Goodbye. And, yeah, stay safe. Okay. Well, that was great
fun. I really enjoyed that, andwe could probably have talked on
for for much much longer.
But, everyone must have beensick to death of of our voices
by now. So thank you forlistening this far in if you've
if you've got this far. So nexttime. Now we were talking about

(01:31:30):
this. I think actually, we'vewe've done so much Tales of the
Old West, and we've been kind ofobsessed by that lately, which
you know, I hope peopleunderstand why that that is.
But next time, let's dosomething different. So,

Matthew (01:31:43):
okay.

Dave (01:31:44):
You're Essen. There might be some great people that you
could possibly talk to at Essenand get some Well,

Matthew (01:31:48):
there will definitely be great people. Whether or not
Yeah. I'd get a chance to talkto them somewhere quite, so I'd
have to record something. But,yeah. I will try, Dave, I will
try and record an interview withsome of the, other great
publishers or

Dave (01:32:03):
Great. Excellent.

Matthew (01:32:05):
Or maybe a couple of short ones or something like
that. We'll

Dave (01:32:08):
That sounds a good idea. And if not, then I I will commit
to doing something Coriolis. Howabout that?

Matthew (01:32:14):
Hey, back to the old school.

Dave (01:32:16):
Exactly. And if we don't do that for next time, I'll do
something for Coriolis the timeafter. So Brilliant. Get back
get back to our roots. How aboutthat?

Matthew (01:32:24):
Get back to our roots. That's where we started. That's
where the Everything's

Dave (01:32:27):
been completed. Whole movement started. We we owe
Coriolis a great debt ofgratitude for being the the
springboard that has put us towhere we are today. So, yeah.
And I still love that game.
So it's, yes. Okay. Brilliant.Well, without any further Yes.
Without without any further ado,it's goodbye for me.

Matthew (01:32:48):
And it's goodbye from him.

Dave (01:32:50):
And may the icons bless your adventures. You have been
listening to the effect podcastpresented by fiction suit and
the RPG gods. Music stars on ablack sea used with permission
of freely publishing.

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