August 25, 2025 • 50 mins
“When Boise State’s president boldly proclaimed in 2017 that the university could become ‘the Alabama of esports,’ few imagined how quickly that vision would take shape. What began with walk-on players has since transformed into a nationally dominant program—boasting six championships and a reputation as a recruiting powerhouse. In this captivating conversation, Chris ‘Doc’ Haskell pulls back the curtain on the rise of Boise State’s esports dynasty and how it’s reshaping collegiate competition in the digital age.”
What sets Boise State University apart isn't just their gaming prowess—it's their revolutionary approach to student-athlete development. Unlike the stereotype of basement-dwelling gamers, Doc recruits National Honor Society students with stellar GPAs who happen to excel at gaming. With $175,000 in annual scholarships and a stunning 7,000-square-foot downtown facility, they've created an environment where academic excellence and gaming mastery coexist.
The most compelling aspect of this conversation goes beyond championships and facilities. Doc's voice breaks with emotion several times as he discusses the profound responsibility of mentoring young people and creating experiences that will shape their lives long after graduation. His leadership philosophy—centered on accountability, continuous improvement, and celebrating both victories and defeats—offers valuable insights for anyone in a position of influence.
Whether you're a gaming enthusiast curious about collegiate esports, a parent wondering about opportunities in this emerging field, or a leader seeking fresh perspectives on building championship cultures, this episode delivers unexpected wisdom from the digital frontier. Come explore how a program that seemed improbable just eight years ago is now positioning itself to become an Olympic training center and a model for universities nationwide.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today on the Ever Onward podcast, we have Chris
Haskell, aka Doc Haskell.
He is the head coach anddirector of the varsity esports
team at Boise State University.
Longtime professor at BoiseState, who became the head coach
in 2017 and has grown anincredible program that's the
envy of the nation at BoiseState.
Can't wait to hear all abouthimise State and the esports
(00:23):
program.
Doc Haskell, thanks for comingon.
You bet it's gonna be fun.
I I we're meeting for the firsttime today, but I feel like I
know you because dozens ofpeople have been telling me you
(00:43):
got to get Doc on here.
No, derek, you're kind of a, soI've done a little research and
watched a little video and kindof digging into this a little
bit.
It's really cool.
I can't wait to talk today andhear.
Well, first of all, we're huge,huge Bronco fans and I am not
(01:03):
in this world, so it'sfascinating to me.
It's like blows my mind.
Fascinating to me, so I can'twait to talk to you.
Let's start.
Tell us a little bit about you.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Gosh, I'm on the wrong side of middle age,
probably.
I'm probably the oldest coachin my field, because most of the
folks are in their early 30s,late 20s right in esports, and
I'm 54.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Did you see that study that came out this week?
They've done this deep dive onaging, when you really start
changing your body and it's likein the 30s, which is super
disappointing for me.
I'm like, oh my gosh.
Yeah, the 30s, which is superdisappointing for me.
I'm like, oh my gosh.
They did all this imaging andit shows your capillaries and
your arteries and your aortastarts like you're on the other
side of it at like 30.
(01:51):
You're falling apart Wheels arefalling off at 30, right, doc?
That's not good.
So I think we're all on theother side of it, but you are
one of the older guys then huh,yeah, I am.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I mean so by way of history.
I mean, I came to Boise Statein 1990 as an undergrad, lived
in Chafee Hall.
Where'd you come from?
Portland area, portland, yeah,I mean, you start to locate
enough.
And anybody who's familiar withthat area, I would say Gresham,
and then, well, actually moreprobably Damascus, boring Sandy
area.
So you grew up over there, yep,tell us a little bit about that
growing up over there.
Growing up over there.
I went to San Barlow HighSchool, which was in band and
(02:29):
music had the best band directorin the state for many years,
chuck Bolton.
What did you play?
Percussion Well, and we have to.
Okay, drummer, percussionist.
That's the primary difference.
Came here to study with JohnBaldwin the original doc right,
he was.
Doc Baldwin taught us reallythat approach of if you spend
(02:51):
enough time with people, youcan't have such a formal title
that students never feel likethey have a personal
relationship, but they can'ttake it so personal that they
can call you by your first name.
And that's what Doc Baldwin did.
So when I found myself in thisposition, I immediately stole
that moniker as a way of beingdisarmed enough but being formal
(03:15):
enough in front of colleaguesthat it didn't tilt them.
Yeah, and came to school in 90and got all three degrees from
Boise State and uh, and cameback which is unheard of to then
, you know, be faculty at your,at your university, and taught
10 years in the college ofeducation uh, with Rich
Osguthorpe and uh, lisa Dollyand that crew and Brett Shelton.
(03:39):
And then uh, made thetransition when e-sports started
.
Started to what year was that?
2017 is when Bob Custra said wecould be the Alabama of esports
, and Gordon Jones said we'regoing to find an unfair
competitive advantage.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah, so 2017, so eight years, and it's
interesting digging into thiskind of getting ready for this.
What's happened, yeah, one inhow big the space is and what it
is in collegiate athletics nowand what's happened to it, and
(04:18):
two, how dominant the program'sbeen.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
It's been amazing, I mean, and it feels kind of like
you've seen Inception.
It feels like Miller's Planet.
We were down there for an hourand 27 years have passed, I
still don't get that show.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
It's like my kids' favorite show and I'm like you
guys are too smart for me.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
There's a lot of math in that show, kip Thorne and
the like but it has been awhirlwind.
Well, here's what's crazy we'rethe third FBS school.
We're the third power school tojoin the first one, your alma
mater, utah.
Aj Ademic built that firstprogram there in the Division I
(05:01):
big football playing school era.
There were about 30 smallerDivision II III schools back in
the day, but now we were thethird.
Miami Ohio was the second.
There are 200 FBS schools todayplaying and we play in the top
with Utah.
We play in the top poweresports conference with Michigan
State, ohio State, syracuse,nebraska, minnesota.
(05:22):
I mean all these really topschools.
Q's right.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Nebraska, Minnesota, I mean all these really top
schools Talk about the journeyand how it started and kind of
how give us back, because Ithink I mean I'm assuming, like
I always say, I'm the old guynow that, but you think of
people that may be listening tothis part of the intrigue of you
one and I want to get into that.
I think you're a tremendousleader and I think people look
(05:46):
up to you for a lot of things.
I want to get into that.
But this is pretty new for alot of people that are like what
, what?
Does this mean and how doesthis work?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Well, I mean, it's no stranger than rowing as a
college sport, right?
I mean it doesn't have a directcorollary to any careers?
Right, it just is this athleticthing that if you focus on, you
can become good.
And then we start taking on ourrivals and we see who can be
better at this thing.
Right, it's around long enoughand rowing become well.
(06:17):
It makes sense.
Right, it's in the Olympics,but esports is going to be in
the Olympics in about fiveminutes.
So it's all part of the samekind of pattern.
But for us.
I was in the College ofEducation.
Games was my area that I taughtmost of my classes in using
Minecraft or Second Life orRoblox as a learning platform,
(06:39):
bringing students into it.
And I was genuinely going backto a conference I'd already
given my good keynote at and Ineeded to search for another one
.
So I dove into gaming groups,esports, and I thought I was
going to do this broader one,and it became really evident to
me like, oh my gosh, this is thegold rush moment.
(07:00):
Right, I shared it with BrettShelton, who shared it with the
dean, and it got all the way upto Bob Custer and he's the one
that said so.
There's an opportunity to be theAlabama of esports.
This is eight years ago.
Alabama hadn't gotten beat byVanderbilt, so maybe we're the
Georgia of esports now, but itkind of became automatic at that
(07:21):
point.
I didn't intend to go down thispath, but I was passionate
about it and I loved thestudents that we were drawing in
and it was like an opportunityto create, as Gordon said, an
unfair competitive advantage.
So how do you start?
Speaker 1 (07:35):
a program.
I mean, how does it begin?
Speaker 2 (07:38):
It begins with some memorandums of understanding on
a campus like who's going to?
We're going to spin this thingoff?
Who?
Where does it sit?
Yeah, and it was.
Uh, it was Gordon Jones whosaid, no, that this needs to
come to the college ofinnovation and design.
And so it it.
It moved that way prettyquickly from education where I
(07:58):
was, and they brought me with it, um, and I don't know what they
traded for me, I'm alwaysfascinated when, because I think
for the rest of the world,understanding the politics of a
campus, it's always like what?
Speaker 1 (08:13):
But talk about how, the different?
Just because I haven't hadanyone on this that has talked
about it.
But you do have the way it'skind of set up is you have
different colleges and deans.
The way it's kind of set up isyou have different colleges and
deans and there's a lot of fromthe outside looking in, a lot of
competition, and especially nowthat funding happens, it's like
, okay, this new idea that hey,we're going to kind of find ways
(08:36):
to bring outside dollars and alot of stuff.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
It's pretty competitive within.
So there's a general principlethat always applies on every
campus, from CWI all the way upto the Stanford of Southwest
Idaho, which would be BoiseState the idea of academic and
intellectual independence, thatyou get to do your thing and
we're going to support youbecause you're the expert.
(09:00):
In that I mean.
It starts really with thethesis and dissertation process.
You drill down into somethingin a way that no one else, so
you're really the expert.
So we can't tell you you don'tknow more than because you do.
You know more than everybodyelse.
So when, when these ideas pop up, you have to have support, for
which can be students who areinterested in it, or dollars,
(09:21):
for which can be external Right,and so we had to find those
things too.
Gordon jones is the one we canmarket this.
He's the one who first broughtum, you know, hp to the table to
sponsor the program and,crucial, you know, micron to
help sponsor the program.
And iccu yeah, I saw somethingrecently um with it with a
(09:43):
plaque, with k Orme, who is oneof our original true believers.
He and Clark Rasmussen fromICCU were like we want to
scholarship these kids.
So when you have a good ideaand you have a way to support it
.
Kent's the man.
Oh, amazing, yeah, absolutelyamazing.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Kent, if you're listening to this, we love you,
we do.
He's like the absolute best.
Yeah, he's in.
Ken, if you're listening tothis, we love you, we do.
He's like the absolute best.
Yeah, he's in a bad caraccident.
He's recovering and man, I justI love that guy.
But I saw, I was watching thevideo last night and I saw the
ICCU on the jerseys, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, they're a huge part of fame.
40 students.
And they're responsible for allof that.
I mean they came in to helpsupport kids through and it's
not a massive scholarship.
We have to build scholarships,like every sport program does.
(10:39):
But they were critical in thatearly piece and they got those
kids out.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
So back to the deal here.
Sorry, you pick a call, butthey, gordon wanted you because
he could see this thing andsaying, hey, well, you've talked
with him, he's wicked smart.
Yeah, yeah, he's got vision.
Yeah, he certainly does.
So he saw that you go in thecollege.
(11:07):
He knew where the puck wasgoing to be.
He knows where the puck wasgoing to be.
He's skating to the puck, right, that's great.
And so then, how did you startit?
Tell us a little bit how it gotgoing.
Was there already in the nation?
Was there already a?
You said it wasn't the FBSschools, but was there already a
pretty robust program out therethat you'd kind of merged into?
Or how did it start?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Well, so I mean national organizations for
competition are always part ofit, right, In college sports we
know NCAA and we know the NAIA.
Well, the NAIA had started anorganization called NACE.
No one needs to write this down, it's not on the final, but it
was a collection of division one, II and III schools with
(11:47):
esports programs and brought uskind of all together In the
early days when we were schoolnumber 36 and Georgia State was
37, right, it made sense tocircle the wagons that way, but
there are over 800 today.
We get emails every day askingfrom schools who are spinning up
programs.
Can they come and visit ourcampus?
(12:07):
They want to know what we'redoing.
West Virginia right now is inour DMs saying, hey, how'd you
set this part up?
How'd you do this?
We didn't expect that we wouldbe in that position, but we were
early enough.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Right that people want to learn from our mistakes
now, yeah, so you set it up,what are the steps that need to
go into it?
And then how do you recruit?
What I want to get to is Okay,now you have, we're sitting here
looking at your championshiprings on the table here, but
it's a big deal, and you and younow you have a full program.
(12:39):
So going it's a very short timeto go from an idea to full
programs, to winningchampionships every year and
competing for the nationalchampionship every year and
being the premier program or oneof the premier programs in the
country.
So how did you do that?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
So the short version of it is.
We decided we wanted to do it.
Brett Shelton, who was mydepartment chair in ed tech at
the time, said, yeah, let's dothis.
And I had to kind of breadcrumbhim for a little bit.
I would have to send him like,hey, I just need you to read
just the first two paragraphs ofthis article today and then a
couple of days later, will youwatch just the first five
minutes of this video andeventually he's like okay, I get
it, what are we doing?
(13:16):
And so we spun it up.
We drafted an MOU, which waseducation and CID Marty Shemp
was the provost at the time.
He signed it, it went on to andthen we were an official unit
on campus.
We had an account code and itwas on right.
That's how it begun.
(13:39):
And if you have an account code, then you can bring in money.
It's not always easy, but youcan bring in money into a
university and you can start todo things like buy jerseys and
plan for travel and things likethat.
And you know, as strange as thatsounds, we then just outgrew
every space that we had,offended the neighbors by doing
too much stuff with the students.
Right, students were having toomuch fun, right, they were
(14:01):
laughing too much, they wereshowing up too often, and that's
the only way to get change on acampus, right?
Is you get students to stretchthe walls of the space you're in
until they're like, well, wegot to solve this, let's move
them over there.
Okay, let's move them overthere.
So we had three or four homesbefore where we are now, which
is across from Trader Joe'sdowntown, everybody's driven by
the space and going.
What are they doing in there,it's eSports.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
It's awesome.
Yeah, so did you initially thekids that competed, were they
already on campus?
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Yeah, they were walk-on.
We just did local talent searchand you did talent search
reached out to the community andthrough.
There were clubs on campus thatwere playing some of the
different games.
We brought them all in and yeah, Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
So then, why were they so good?
Why did they, why were theywinning immediately?
Speaker 2 (14:48):
well, some of them would tell you we weren't.
We weren't good in thebeginning and we actually lost,
um, a number of.
I mean I think we lost thefirst three mountain west
championships to unlv uh in intwo of the different games.
So, um, it took us a littlewhile to recruit, to build to
that level.
You know be a bigger, moreCalifornia centric area and you
(15:08):
know, like in football therethere are the Texas type places
where they just develop a lot ofreally good talent.
In one thing, I don't knowwhere rowing would be, but you
know, texas football, floridafootball, southern California
and Nevada were really strong inesports back then.
So it wasn't until 2020 that wewon our first title in
(15:31):
something other than RocketLeague in the Mountain West.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
That's great, and what?
So now for us listening.
What are the?
Speaker 2 (15:37):
games oh, okay, everybody has seen it Rocket
League, which is cars playingsoccer right, everybody
recognizes that one.
We play Smash, which is a gameprobably lots of folks have seen
on their Nintendo, and it'slike a 1v1 fighting game.
We're all terrible at it andour children are much better at
(16:01):
it.
The other two that we play astop varsity games are Overwatch,
which is a professional leaguealso, and Valorant, which is
also another, and those are 5v5team games.
We sponsor primarily team games, but we have a college football
25 to 26 player.
We have a Madden player, maddennational champion player.
(16:23):
So those are the primary gamesand every couple of years we
look to see is there somethingdeveloping that we might want to
recruit the next best studentin?
But most schools play the fourthat I mentioned Rocket League,
valorant, overwatch and Smash.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
So now I'm going to get into some really naive
questions.
So you recruit these kids Nowyou have a name brand.
Well, it's Boise State, right,so it's a pretty great place to
come.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah, it really is.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
It kind of sells itself.
I think a lot.
But you get these kids come in.
It's now competitive.
You're kind of picking who youwant to come in.
What's the like?
Do they train, do they?
Speaker 2 (17:05):
I mean like here is where the mysticism kind of
drops a little bit, because itis what you already know.
It is college sports.
It's 20 hours a week, 24 weeksof contact right, grade point
minimums, bronco code.
We're in meetings early in theseason, we're doing the photos
and media, we're watching filmtogether, we're building out
(17:29):
essentially our playbook andpracticing against other teams.
The difference is that we canscrimmage other teams without
leaving home because everybodyplays online, and so we can play
Notre Dame in a scrimmage onTuesday and try to execute our
stuff.
It's just fascinating to me.
Yeah, I mean, that part of itmakes it really cool.
(17:58):
We have in the past sometimeshad practice squads.
You know, folks who are tryingto make the main team that we
can practice against.
But often it's good to teststrategy and how prepared we are
against somebody who just wantsto beat us, no matter what
right.
They're not the B team right,so that makes it really handy.
But it is what you know.
I mean they come after class,have a quick snack in the
fueling station and then they'reat their consoles.
(18:19):
We're going over our practiceplan.
These are the maps we're goingto hit, these are the strategies
we're going to do and here'swhat's the expectation.
We're watching film together,you know so watching film.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
You're actually studying the other teams that
you play Absolutely.
What they do, what theirstrategies are and how you're
going to beat them yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
It's just mind-blowing.
It is.
The fundamental difference inesports is these kids come in
with professional level skillsthat many of them have or could
play professional, and theychoose college instead.
Unlike the big sports wherephysical maturity allows you to
be ready for the NFL, the NBA,wnba any of those or Olympics,
(19:00):
they're usually at their bestbetween 16 and 21, right.
So it tends to overlap and wehave professional players now
who are full-time collegestudents.
We have to hand over their time.
Jonathan Foraker recently hewas in Korea, in Japan, in
Stockholm, sweden, for the WorldChampionships.
He's an Overwatch player for usand a team captain for us, but
(19:21):
he's never stopped his studenttime.
We just hand over hiscompetitive time in those brief
six-week periods where they'redoing the professional stuff.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
What kind of money is there in this for these guys
that play professionally?
I?
Speaker 2 (19:35):
mean tens to hundreds of thousands.
I mean Peyton Tuma, who's ourMadden.
He won the Madden Bowl twice.
He won it first time at 17, andwe're still recruiting him
Right, and he's won a bunch ofMadden tournaments.
I mean, I don't, I don't lookat what his earnings are.
That's not good when you'restate employed to look at what
(19:55):
your students are earning, butit's, I mean, it's in the, it's
in the six and seven figures,his, his success in that game.
So you know, our scholarshipconversation is very different.
I'm like, peyton, would youoffer a scholarship to another
student?
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah, but yeah they can have that kind of success.
Talk about.
One of the things I thought wasfascinating in the video I
watched is so, then, a lot ofit's remote, but then these
championships are held indifferent regions of the country
and it looks very competitive.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
It is yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Because everyone's sitting at tables and kind of
going at it.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
On stage, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Because everyone's sitting at tables and kind of
going at it On stage.
Yeah, and it was.
I thought it was interesting.
It's not March Madness, it'sMay Madness, may Madness, and
it's tournament brackets, thewhole thing.
Talk us through that.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
You bet.
So we were in a number ofdifferent competitive.
It's like golf in a sense thereare majors throughout the year,
right, and there is a bigfinish at the end.
It's the it's where it's.
It is the May madness.
Basketball is the bestcorrelation there, where the
winners from each of theconferences and a lot of the big
(21:04):
conferences play the big 10,right, all the way down to the
peach Belt, right they all bringtheir representatives and they
bracket us up and we just climbto the top right.
So it's the top 64 teamsactually top 16 teams in four
different games, climbing toVita, that national championship
.
So it's pretty cool, but it isexactly what you would think it
(21:28):
would be.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Over what period of time is the competition?
It's a weekend, right you?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
qualify for and then it's it's all or nothing.
Um, in the last three yearsit's been in uh in arlington,
texas.
We think this year it'll be inlas vegas that's great yeah,
it's good for us.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
We can get our fans to las vegas, so I also saw so
so talk about, uh, jeremiah andthe department of athletics and
yeah, and cody and kind and kindof how they've kind of embraced
this yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Apologies to any of your University of Idaho
graduates that are listening,because this is always painful
to listen to, but we are in thegood old days right now.
I don't think people realize.
You do.
You've spoken with him, you'veheard people talk about him.
Jeremiah is special andsingular.
His drive is fearless.
(22:19):
He's looking for epic all thetime.
What's next is not just abranding decision, it is a
strategy is a strategy.
And he was on campus just Imean maybe two weeks, and he and
Cody invited me I didn't.
They didn't know who.
I was right, that's what Ithought Invited me to breakfast
(22:42):
and said you're on our big plan.
We've got a big runway here ofall these things we've got to
hit and we've seen all thethings that they've been hitting
and when the time is right.
And we spent about two yearsjust like working on how this
would fit and what we would needand bring it in.
But we live in the best time tobe a Bronco period, and I've
(23:02):
been a Bronco since 1990.
So there have been some goodtimes, but he is the leader that
he appears to be.
He is the.
I mean he messaged me beforebefore I came in today saying
you're gonna love it.
He's so creative, his questionsare so good.
You're gonna have a great time.
I mean, he's engaged in thisand I wouldn't think this would
(23:23):
be at his level of uh, ofattention.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Yeah it uh, I don't know.
I've been around a long timedifferent sectors of medicine
and politics and business Idon't know that I've ever met a
guy quite like him.
I think the motor is one thing,a lot of people that work hard,
but I think the vision on thefront end and then the clarity
(23:46):
in which he kind of communicatesplans to everyone, and it's
just dang inspirational.
I mean he just drives you towant to be better and be part of
something bigger than you are.
It's pretty remarkable.
I think, to your point,sometimes we go so hard at life
that you don't appreciate what'shappening right here in front
(24:08):
of you.
And I think, frankly, with himand just where he is and his
drive and what he sees, I hopehe knows how much he means to
this community right now.
I mean sincerely.
You look at what's happened in avery short time and what we're
(24:29):
on the precipice of doing as acommunity, and Boise State is
the front porch of the state.
Yep, I mean, I know I meanSorry, vandals, but yeah, it
just is.
I mean and I, everywhere I gowhen I travel, it's oh, boise
State, right, yeah, boise State,boise State, boise State, the
(24:51):
brand I mean.
And then you look at just thelast few years and everything,
including what you're doing, andit's not just football, it's
not just basketball, it's notjust the major sports.
If you look at the women'ssports, if you look at soccer
and your stuff.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Oh yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
It's across the board .
Speaker 2 (25:10):
And he supports it all.
Yeah, he does, and he willdeflect and say, well, he's got
a great team around him.
But there are three things thathe has directly taught me that
I use every day.
One is that he says it's hisobligation to provide his group
attitude, energy and work ethicevery day.
If he does those things, heknows he's doing a good job as a
(25:32):
leader.
Right, and those are plasteredon my monitor at work, right?
The other thing is that histhree years up or out philosophy
which I don't think you guystalked about, but I've caught it
on other podcasts when he wasclimbing ladders.
He's like I have to changewhere I.
I've got three years to like,absolutely magnify this position
that I'm in so that it becomessomething bigger, or that I am
(25:56):
wanted somewhere else, andthat's a big part.
So I'm thinking of my own lifeon that three-year clock.
How can I turn this intosomething?
How can I go from one assistantcoach to three assistant
coaches?
How can we add positions?
How can we add scholarships?
Where can we grow to to borrowagainst Spencer?
Where are we add positions?
How can we add scholarships?
Right?
Where can we grow to to borrowagainst Spencer, right?
Where are we growing to?
Those are huge ones to me andthere's a piece of evidence that
(26:20):
this place is special.
He's going to be the mostsought after AD anywhere we
better get used to.
You know people showinginterest in him and he's got to
give some respect to thoseoffers or it puts Boise State in
a bad position.
I don't know who it would beTexas calls.
I mean that would be the bigone.
(26:40):
I don't know that.
That would be his mothership,but everybody will tell you the
grass isn't bluer on the otherside.
I mean, we see Dirk here intown.
He wants to be a part of it.
He could be a coach anywhere,right.
We see Chris coming back allthe time.
He's standing on the sideline.
The grass isn't bluer.
This is an extra special spaceand we are in the golden age
(27:06):
right now.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Yeah, I think, well said Amen.
I mean, I just it's, it's, youknow, enjoy every moment of it.
The president search is reallyinteresting.
It is look at, you know just,the campus and research and the
(27:30):
growth and where it's headed,the importance of higher
education to a community, to astate, and then on the athletic
side, and you put both of thosetogether with the brand and the
location and the beauty ofcampus and it's just, it's
amazing.
And you talked a little bitabout Custer.
You go back to those days.
(27:50):
I mean people don't rememberthe Great Recession.
It's like it never happenedRight, and it was so vivid still
in my mind, just how dark anddeep and ugly it was 2007, 2008,
kids.
That's when it was.
It was horrific and thiscommunity was just crippled.
(28:11):
And at the time here was BobKustra, like just busting at the
seams and saying, hey, we'regoing to do this, and coming
across the river with computerscience.
I remember going into it wascrazy because Amy Mall who's
still there right having thevision to pull that department
(28:32):
off campus and put it indowntown in our building and it
was not easy.
I remember going to some ofthose early meetings and, like
some of the tenured professors,saying what we're doing, what?
Speaker 2 (28:42):
It'll never work.
It's too far away.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
It's too far away.
We solved all the problems andnow you look at the campus and
the growth and how it all fitsin the city.
There's just so many amazingthings about it and I think you
think of what it means to thefamilies of Idaho and the kids
that grow up here and you canstay here.
You don't want to go anywhereelse.
(29:04):
You want to go to Boise State.
That's all happened.
It's happened over a period oftime with tremendous leaders.
People follow people.
That was a big preamble to mynext question.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Okay, it's a great preamble.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
One of the things that, when your name comes up,
everyone brings up is you areone of those transformational
leaders.
You inspire people and justtoday, being around you, it's
pretty infectious.
What are your principles ofleadership and what drives you,
motivates you, you, you.
It's pretty infectious.
What are your principles ofleadership and what drives you,
motivates you.
It's thoughtful.
So there's something to belearned here today for us being
(29:39):
with you.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Well, let me be completely transparent.
I started this job when wetransitioned into esports and
that was going to be myfull-time gig.
It was a year where I stilltaught some classes.
Then I was getting buyouts ofsome of my courses so I could
put more time into it.
Everybody supported my decision.
It was Gordon Jones who saidlet's take you from clinical
associate professor to headcoach, right, which means I set
(30:06):
aside any tenure and promotion.
I left the academic trackcompletely and I became staff.
I went from nine months to 12months.
Right, this was his vision.
It was a little bit scary.
I realized pretty quickly withinthe first year and a half that
while I loved being around thestudents, I had no real training
(30:29):
in how to be a head coach, andnot in the X's, no's part of
head coach.
But how do you get studentsfrom one place into another
place?
How do you get them ready?
How do you get them to notargue with each other?
Where's that culture come from?
And I just had to go to work.
I realized I'm the problem.
We haven't won any MountainWest titles except in Rocket
(30:52):
League.
You know, we got to get betterat recruiting.
I got to fix me right and Iwould argue that that is that
self-improvement that you see inthe academic.
Well, excuse me, the athleticyou know compound all the time.
It comes from Jeremiah throughCody and that whole group.
So I started studying everyfootball coach.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
I could.
So it's interesting, as you saythis, I'm going to interrupt you
as we go through this, I thinkthere's some things to learn
here, but I'm around a lot ofpeople sometimes this idea that
you never stop growing, younever stop looking for your
weaknesses and you say I amgoing to improve and become.
Yeah, I'm going to become whatI want to be by doing each day
(31:38):
what I want to become.
Right, right, and so for you itwas I'm going to grow as a
leader, I'm going to grow as acoach.
People follow people.
Yes, I got great examplesaround me, but I need to become
something right, yep.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
That me, but I need to become something right,
that's powerful.
I need to become more than I am, and that's a common theme on
this conversation with all thefolks I think Carolyn's one more
recently talking exactly aboutthat what can you become?
She's become an amazing mentorand leader, right, it's not just
the doing of the thing, andthat becomes a responsibility of
(32:08):
everybody who improves enoughis to share.
You can't keep that secret.
So I just started reading,consuming multiple times,
marking up copies of everycoaching book.
There were a couple that werereally strong for me the Urban
Meyer Above the Line book whenhe was at Ohio State, because he
identified culture as somethingyou teach.
(32:30):
So these are the principles youbelieve in, and he uses Tim
Kite's philosophy, as do I, injust the way we prepare our
students.
So gamers, despite what peoplewould think, there's no vaping
in mom's basement of this group.
They're all a National HonorSociety 4.0 students.
I mean we recruit the absolutebest of the best as students who
happen to be amazing gamers,but some of them came in with
(32:54):
sports but we didn't give themlike, here's our culture, here's
what we do and we don't do.
We don't blame, complain,defend.
We always look for where we cantake responsibility or
accountability.
Let's own this right and that's.
I mean that's what Spence doeswith football and they have a
definite culture.
I mean that's what Spence doeswith football and they have a
definite culture.
I mean he's even said ityesterday.
(33:15):
Right Is that?
Is that we're we're gonna.
We're gonna reap what we sow,and right now we're sowing
everything we're going to needlater in the season.
And you have to have thatmessage.
And I learned that the hard wayafter a few years of you know,
some frustrated students causewe weren't hitting the levels
that we did.
What I look for now when we'retrialing or actually trying out
(33:35):
players that are coming fromhigh school, is how frustrated
and disappointed can we get them?
Because I want to know what'sour starting position with
discomfort because they're goingto have a lot of it.
It's a strange flex, but we'velost more national championship
games than anyone else in thePEC has ever played in.
(33:58):
Now we've won six, but we'velost five times where we thought
we were going to bring home thetrophy, and some of those are
quite painful.
I mean the video piece that yousaw recently.
We lost a ball state on thebiggest stage there is, and you
need to know that you have theright people on there.
(34:18):
If that happens, what happensthen?
Right.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
So winning and losing are all part of a culture and
you have to do both of them theright way, or it's kind of a
waste of everybody's time do youever um, as, as a head coach,
um you know the responsibilityyou have, the privilege you have
of interacting with these youngpeople and teaching them about
(34:48):
life, and and and the principlesthat will make them successful
in whatever they choose to dolater on.
Do you ever think about howprofound that is?
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Yeah, I probably.
Of all of my peers in thecoaching circle, many of them
are at more of that ambitiousstage.
They don't have a lot ofself-reflection and I'll get
choked up.
Yeah, so you got me.
You got me, put this one on thereel.
But I get choked up.
Being on stage You'll often seenowadays kind of a huddle,
(35:22):
either before or after, becausethat group of people will share
that one singular momenttogether and carry it for the
rest of our lives and no oneelse will know what that feels
like except us All.
The struggle that we wentthrough to get there, all the
personal conflict that peoplewant in the same seat and wanted
(35:43):
to start but someone had to bea backup, and matches we lost,
matches we won.
They wrap all of that upbecause this is a brief stop for
them.
I'm the lucky one that I get todo this, hopefully another 10,
15 years.
But this is a tiny littlesliver in their life and they're
going to go on and become thenext thing.
(36:04):
But we joke about the rings.
But the nice thing about thoserings is they're kind of a
magical object.
They're a talisman of thisexperience that that group of
people had in that place.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
And very symbolic.
I mean, we need, I don't think,and I think sometimes, ambition
you kind of said it ambitionand drive, and where you are and
you're just, it's always kindof like going for the next thing
.
Sometimes it's only onafterwards we reflect back.
I wish I would have savored, Iwish and I think, the symbolism
(36:42):
of these things like rings yeah,so for those listening that
aren't watching on YouTube, wegot a whole box of championship,
a box of steel and I don't know, and each one of those probably
have a deep story of who wasthere, what it meant to you.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Exactly, and that is the reason for the ring.
My sweet wife Allie does notwant me to wear the rings at
Costco, but I think that'd be agreat place, because then you
stop and tell a story about thegroup of people who did this
thing.
But on the back of this one isthe word endure, which is very
important to this group of fourstudents who were with the
(37:15):
experience this year.
This is a world championshipring, but it's in black because
they ended up canceling the liveevent because of an issue.
So we qualified for the worldchampionships for the second
year in a row and they didn'thold it the second year in a row
.
So it was sad in a lot of ways.
There were also some veryprofound personal things that
(37:35):
happened within the team parentslosing their home, students
having these really difficulttimes and we all came together.
We were in this thing together.
I love those students more thananything, and this just reminds
us.
This is the thing we learnedthat year that we can endure
(37:56):
hard things right, and this isthe reminder to us all of us
that we're not done with hardthings, but we've got proof that
we did some pretty amazingthings when we shouldn't have
been able to.
That's just awesome.
Yeah, that's what the rings do.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
I just want to make sure we give you plenty of time.
So are there ways that peoplecan find out more?
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
What are ways the community can get more involved
in what you do?
So let's talk through that.
You bet you got your website.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Yeah, and we're on the athletic site now too, which
is pretty, that's it.
To me, that's surreal, right,that's surreal.
It is the right home for us,culturally, if nothing else.
But yeah, I mean people canjump in on the website anytime
and find out.
I mean, our games are about tobe listed on there Pretty much
when school starts.
Expect Monday through Thursday.
(38:49):
We're competing and everyone iswelcome to come.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
So talk about the facility and talk about people
coming by.
I don't know.
Tell us what we need to knowabout your program and how the
community can be more involvedand help.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
You bet We've got a dedicated 7,000-square-foot
space downtown.
I think it's actually more thanthat.
I saw something recently it wasnine so I think we calculated
it wrong but as a spectatorarena our players play on a
stage big old, cool lights andstuff like that.
We have live broadcasts.
We do about 30 hours of livecontent a week.
(39:26):
Everybody can watch ourdocumentary now on KIVI.
It's on every Tuesday now.
Everybody can watch ourdocumentary now on KIVI.
It's on every Tuesday.
Now I think it's probably goingto get a second life and a run
somewhere else, which is that,to me, is really surprising.
We modeled the above the linekind of videography after what
they were doing with the climb,right, yeah?
So I went to athletics and wentoh, we should do that so we can
give people an insight intowhat we do.
(39:47):
We didn't know that it wouldmake TV.
By the end of the year We'dhave to reformat it for TV.
But the best way that folks caninteract is and even if they
just don't get it, just comedown and tour Noon to 9 every
(40:09):
day.
But Sunday you can just walkthe esports facility downtown
right, onsports facilitydowntown right on the corner of
Capitol in front.
Um, it's.
It couldn't be a betterlocation for us, right Across
from Trader Joe's, and come inand see where the players
practice, see the coaches in thein the meeting room, see the
studio, see the arena sit in oneof the theater seats which were
taken out of the?
Uh real theater, uh, uh countryclub that when they closed down
the real theater country club,when they closed down the
(40:30):
discount theater on Overland.
Yeah, same seats.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
That's cool.
And then for kids that may beinterested parents out there
that have kids they're like hey,my son or daughter would love
to be part of this.
What's that process like?
Speaker 2 (40:45):
There are 70 high schools in the state state of
idaho that are playing umesports.
Yeah, we host the statechampionships every year and
recruit heavily from the statechampionships.
That's why you want to host it,um, but yeah, from all over the
state.
Um that, if, if they're inschool, they, uh, middle schools
are now spinning up differentteams in different games um, all
(41:07):
of them T-rated games, right?
No one plays Colleges, don'tscholarship, at least none of
the big ones in M-rated games,because high school kids can't
play right.
So it's team games, it'sT-rated games, and they should
just ask does our high schoolhave a program?
And many of them do so.
(41:29):
There are some really good onesaround, but they can come and
watch and meet the players.
Players will take time to talkto them.
It's a good deal and they canalways watch stuff on YouTube.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
I just thought of one other question.
So it's been with technologychanging as rapidly.
It does talk about theequipment kind of technology
side of this and yeah a whatyou've kind of seen in your time
as the head coach, and what?
What should we expect in thefuture?
What's what's coming down thepipe?
Speaker 2 (42:01):
well.
So a lot of students will say,you know, high school students
say, mom, dad, I need the latest, you know uber system.
But the truth is most of thegames are engineered for three
to five year old systems becauseif they to make them only for
the top system, who's going toplay?
Yeah, right.
So sorry, kids.
Um, you should, yeah, youshould, try to get a good one,
(42:22):
but, um, that the most importantthing.
If somebody wants to play atthe next level, your grades got
to be good.
That's the first question weask in the recruiting process.
What are your grades?
Because I can, I can make you abetter player.
Um, if you're not alreadydialed into being a student,
that's a, that's a wrestlingmatch, right, you know to get
kids to to the right level.
(42:42):
So we're looking for 3.8 orhigher for scholarships and we
give 175,000 scholarshipsannually.
Wow, trying to drive thatnumber up still, yeah, I mean
graduated 40 Hall of Famers sofar with a relatively small
budget and we're really close toglobal takeover.
(43:05):
You know it's pretty cool, butyou know here's what's really.
But we, you know we, here's,here's what's really cool is
that we're.
We're at that phase that thatbasketball um, uh, was before
you know uh, before Larry andKaren came along and built that
basketball facility for them,before you know um, you know
(43:25):
Alan and and uh and D, you knowthe Nobles built that space.
Right, we're at the right placeto build our facility, to find
our Keith and Catherine Stein,you know, to build our family.
That is going to make it agenerational piece for us and
(43:45):
that's where, I mean, we want totalk about where the puck's
going to be.
That's where the puck is goingto be.
We're, we're really close, um,we're only a couple years away.
We want to be a host site forum, for the usa esports olympic
um training center.
Right, they're going to movethat around.
You know why not idaho?
Yeah, well, why somewhere elseis the better question, right,
(44:07):
how about?
How about us?
So those are.
You know, we talk about threeyears right, up or out.
That's our up.
It's like, okay, how do weposition ourselves?
And equipment is a huge part ofthat.
I mean, the grass isn't bluerbecause we've got HP here.
We've got Micron here.
That's kind of too much powerright.
We've got people who believe inthese kids and don't think that
(44:32):
it should exist somewhere else.
I mean, it came from thatoriginal message of Alabama.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
I just sorry I know we're getting late into this,
but what about the future ofgaming?
Talk about like, just where'sthis thing heading, with 3D and
realistic stuff.
You read stuff all the time ofwhere we're headed, but what's
your take on that?
Speaker 2 (44:54):
It's kind of like the technology changes in other
sports.
There's been technology changesin rowing and swimming and
speed suits and no speed suitsand things like that, but the
mechanics are the same.
You put a team of peopletogether.
Everybody has the same toolsand it's how do you work
(45:17):
together to overcome what theopponent is trying to do?
If it becomes that we'reviewing these with VR goggles
awesome, but the mechanics arethe same.
It's comms, it's preparation.
It's never take a fair fight.
It's what's your job, what's myjob.
Let's get that honed reallywell and we can beat anybody.
As things become more mobile,maybe we'll play on some mobile
(45:41):
platforms, as meta and these VRpieces.
They're really fun.
But as they become moreimportant, maybe we'll dial into
what it takes to do thosethings.
But right now, it's a standardhome PC with a 25-inch monitor.
That's essentially the playingfield for the majority of
students and that's where thegames live right now.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
That's where they live right now.
When is the VR stuff going tohit, do you think?
Speaker 2 (46:06):
People said for a long time that once we got up
over 120 frames or 140 frames asecond in the goggles people
would stop having motion effect.
And it's up into the 240s nowand it's still not everything
people want.
When it stops being somethingthat distracts us, I think that
it'll be more prevalent.
We dabble in it a couple timesa year just doing different
(46:30):
little things, but competitively, I mean.
The real tech is how do you getkids with great grades to come
to Boise State?
That's the part that we've beenworking on.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Yeah, it's interesting that you come back
around to that which it's aboutthe kids been working on.
Yeah, it's interesting that youcome back around to that which
it's about the kids right, ahundred percent, I think uh now
that I've spent time with you.
Uh, it's clear why why you'vegot the reputation you do, but,
um, the fact that it's authenticand it's about them, and it's
about this place and Boise state.
Let's end on that.
What does this place mean toyou?
Speaker 2 (47:15):
I'll get.
I'll get teary again.
This is, this is everything.
Yeah, yeah, it was.
I mean, uh met my sweetheart 32years ago.
You know, on campus we cheeredtogether.
You know thank you for notouting me as as a former buster
bronco, but in in 92 I was acheerleader and I I was in heavy
rotation in the suit becausebuster was a cheerleader back
then, part of the spirit squadright, and Julie Stevens,
superstar local coach for us,but Allie was a Boise high
(47:38):
graduate.
I mean, everything that I havehas come from this university,
all three degrees, my bestfriend of 32 years, four
children, five grandchildren,you know everything is is got
got little little blue dust onit and and so I had a chance.
(47:58):
A couple of years ago I got alot of interest from another
university and I it's not we can, we can say Ole Miss now were
building a big um center downthere and they wanted to
interview me and I agreed to godown for an interview and as
soon as they published it online, dr trump had listeners, uh,
(48:18):
jeremiah had listeners.
Both of them called me whenthey released the schedule and,
uh, and and asked that the bestquestion I've ever heard, which
is what would it take for you tonot get on that plane?
That's what everyone would wantto hear, right, that you're
important enough to us, so wewant to make sure that you're
(48:39):
happy here.
And, let's be honest, I wasnever going to Ole Miss.
I mean, I don't want to takeaway my negotiating power,
negotiating power but Allie, whosupports everything I do
professionally, told me that ifI went to Oxford Mississippi,
she'd try to visit as often asshe could.
So with children, grandchildren, in the state we're not very
mobile, but it was the impetusthat this is a really special
(49:05):
place and people, people know it.
Um, but now it's what?
What can I do, um, to get itready for the, for the next
group?
I mean, I'm, I'm on the backend of of a career, still
ambitious, but back end of acareer.
What does it look like?
What is the?
What does the building looklike?
(49:25):
I don't need a statue, but Iwould take another 40 or 50
graduates that do what ours do.
I mean Kellen McGurk, and themost successful Kellen in Boise
State history, was an Overwatchplayer for us and now he works
on Capitol Hill for thelegislature.
I mean, I want more of thoseright, so Well hey, thank you.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
This has been awesome .
Thank you for coming on.
You're awesome and forinspiring all that you do, and
this has been really, really fun.
We really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
I appreciate you.
This is awesome.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
Let us know what we can do to help anytime.
Thanks, man, you rock.
Thanks everybody.
Today on the Ever Onward podcast, we have Chris
Haskell, aka Doc Haskell.
He is the head coach anddirector of the varsity esports
team at Boise State University.
Longtime professor at BoiseState, who became the head coach
in 2017 and has grown anincredible program that's the
envy of the nation at BoiseState.
Can't wait to hear all abouthimise State and the esports
(00:23):
program.
Doc Haskell, thanks for comingon.
You bet it's gonna be fun.
I I we're meeting for the firsttime today, but I feel like I
know you because dozens ofpeople have been telling me you
(00:43):
got to get Doc on here.
No, derek, you're kind of a, soI've done a little research and
watched a little video and kindof digging into this a little
bit.
It's really cool.
I can't wait to talk today andhear.
Well, first of all, we're huge,huge Bronco fans and I am not
(01:03):
in this world, so it'sfascinating to me.
It's like blows my mind.
Fascinating to me, so I can'twait to talk to you.
Let's start.
Tell us a little bit about you.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Gosh, I'm on the wrong side of middle age,
probably.
I'm probably the oldest coachin my field, because most of the
folks are in their early 30s,late 20s right in esports, and
I'm 54.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Did you see that study that came out this week?
They've done this deep dive onaging, when you really start
changing your body and it's likein the 30s, which is super
disappointing for me.
I'm like, oh my gosh.
Yeah, the 30s, which is superdisappointing for me.
I'm like, oh my gosh.
They did all this imaging andit shows your capillaries and
your arteries and your aortastarts like you're on the other
side of it at like 30.
(01:51):
You're falling apart Wheels arefalling off at 30, right, doc?
That's not good.
So I think we're all on theother side of it, but you are
one of the older guys then huh,yeah, I am.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I mean so by way of history.
I mean, I came to Boise Statein 1990 as an undergrad, lived
in Chafee Hall.
Where'd you come from?
Portland area, portland, yeah,I mean, you start to locate
enough.
And anybody who's familiar withthat area, I would say Gresham,
and then, well, actually moreprobably Damascus, boring Sandy
area.
So you grew up over there, yep,tell us a little bit about that
growing up over there.
Growing up over there.
I went to San Barlow HighSchool, which was in band and
(02:29):
music had the best band directorin the state for many years,
chuck Bolton.
What did you play?
Percussion Well, and we have to.
Okay, drummer, percussionist.
That's the primary difference.
Came here to study with JohnBaldwin the original doc right,
he was.
Doc Baldwin taught us reallythat approach of if you spend
(02:51):
enough time with people, youcan't have such a formal title
that students never feel likethey have a personal
relationship, but they can'ttake it so personal that they
can call you by your first name.
And that's what Doc Baldwin did.
So when I found myself in thisposition, I immediately stole
that moniker as a way of beingdisarmed enough but being formal
(03:15):
enough in front of colleaguesthat it didn't tilt them.
Yeah, and came to school in 90and got all three degrees from
Boise State and uh, and cameback which is unheard of to then
, you know, be faculty at your,at your university, and taught
10 years in the college ofeducation uh, with Rich
Osguthorpe and uh, lisa Dollyand that crew and Brett Shelton.
(03:39):
And then uh, made thetransition when e-sports started
.
Started to what year was that?
2017 is when Bob Custra said wecould be the Alabama of esports
, and Gordon Jones said we'regoing to find an unfair
competitive advantage.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah, so 2017, so eight years, and it's
interesting digging into thiskind of getting ready for this.
What's happened, yeah, one inhow big the space is and what it
is in collegiate athletics nowand what's happened to it, and
(04:18):
two, how dominant the program'sbeen.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
It's been amazing, I mean, and it feels kind of like
you've seen Inception.
It feels like Miller's Planet.
We were down there for an hourand 27 years have passed, I
still don't get that show.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
It's like my kids' favorite show and I'm like you
guys are too smart for me.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
There's a lot of math in that show, kip Thorne and
the like but it has been awhirlwind.
Well, here's what's crazy we'rethe third FBS school.
We're the third power school tojoin the first one, your alma
mater, utah.
Aj Ademic built that firstprogram there in the Division I
(05:01):
big football playing school era.
There were about 30 smallerDivision II III schools back in
the day, but now we were thethird.
Miami Ohio was the second.
There are 200 FBS schools todayplaying and we play in the top
with Utah.
We play in the top poweresports conference with Michigan
State, ohio State, syracuse,nebraska, minnesota.
(05:22):
I mean all these really topschools.
Q's right.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Nebraska, Minnesota, I mean all these really top
schools Talk about the journeyand how it started and kind of
how give us back, because Ithink I mean I'm assuming, like
I always say, I'm the old guynow that, but you think of
people that may be listening tothis part of the intrigue of you
one and I want to get into that.
I think you're a tremendousleader and I think people look
(05:46):
up to you for a lot of things.
I want to get into that.
But this is pretty new for alot of people that are like what
, what?
Does this mean and how doesthis work?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Well, I mean, it's no stranger than rowing as a
college sport, right?
I mean it doesn't have a directcorollary to any careers?
Right, it just is this athleticthing that if you focus on, you
can become good.
And then we start taking on ourrivals and we see who can be
better at this thing.
Right, it's around long enoughand rowing become well.
(06:17):
It makes sense.
Right, it's in the Olympics,but esports is going to be in
the Olympics in about fiveminutes.
So it's all part of the samekind of pattern.
But for us.
I was in the College ofEducation.
Games was my area that I taughtmost of my classes in using
Minecraft or Second Life orRoblox as a learning platform,
(06:39):
bringing students into it.
And I was genuinely going backto a conference I'd already
given my good keynote at and Ineeded to search for another one
.
So I dove into gaming groups,esports, and I thought I was
going to do this broader one,and it became really evident to
me like, oh my gosh, this is thegold rush moment.
(07:00):
Right, I shared it with BrettShelton, who shared it with the
dean, and it got all the way upto Bob Custer and he's the one
that said so.
There's an opportunity to be theAlabama of esports.
This is eight years ago.
Alabama hadn't gotten beat byVanderbilt, so maybe we're the
Georgia of esports now, but itkind of became automatic at that
(07:21):
point.
I didn't intend to go down thispath, but I was passionate
about it and I loved thestudents that we were drawing in
and it was like an opportunityto create, as Gordon said, an
unfair competitive advantage.
So how do you start?
Speaker 1 (07:35):
a program.
I mean, how does it begin?
Speaker 2 (07:38):
It begins with some memorandums of understanding on
a campus like who's going to?
We're going to spin this thingoff?
Who?
Where does it sit?
Yeah, and it was.
Uh, it was Gordon Jones whosaid, no, that this needs to
come to the college ofinnovation and design.
And so it it.
It moved that way prettyquickly from education where I
(07:58):
was, and they brought me with it, um, and I don't know what they
traded for me, I'm alwaysfascinated when, because I think
for the rest of the world,understanding the politics of a
campus, it's always like what?
Speaker 1 (08:13):
But talk about how, the different?
Just because I haven't hadanyone on this that has talked
about it.
But you do have the way it'skind of set up is you have
different colleges and deans.
The way it's kind of set up isyou have different colleges and
deans and there's a lot of fromthe outside looking in, a lot of
competition, and especially nowthat funding happens, it's like
, okay, this new idea that hey,we're going to kind of find ways
(08:36):
to bring outside dollars and alot of stuff.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
It's pretty competitive within.
So there's a general principlethat always applies on every
campus, from CWI all the way upto the Stanford of Southwest
Idaho, which would be BoiseState the idea of academic and
intellectual independence, thatyou get to do your thing and
we're going to support youbecause you're the expert.
(09:00):
In that I mean.
It starts really with thethesis and dissertation process.
You drill down into somethingin a way that no one else, so
you're really the expert.
So we can't tell you you don'tknow more than because you do.
You know more than everybodyelse.
So when, when these ideas pop up, you have to have support, for
which can be students who areinterested in it, or dollars,
(09:21):
for which can be external Right,and so we had to find those
things too.
Gordon jones is the one we canmarket this.
He's the one who first broughtum, you know, hp to the table to
sponsor the program and,crucial, you know, micron to
help sponsor the program.
And iccu yeah, I saw somethingrecently um with it with a
(09:43):
plaque, with k Orme, who is oneof our original true believers.
He and Clark Rasmussen fromICCU were like we want to
scholarship these kids.
So when you have a good ideaand you have a way to support it
.
Kent's the man.
Oh, amazing, yeah, absolutelyamazing.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Kent, if you're listening to this, we love you,
we do.
He's like the absolute best.
Yeah, he's in.
Ken, if you're listening tothis, we love you, we do.
He's like the absolute best.
Yeah, he's in a bad caraccident.
He's recovering and man, I justI love that guy.
But I saw, I was watching thevideo last night and I saw the
ICCU on the jerseys, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, they're a huge part of fame.
40 students.
And they're responsible for allof that.
I mean they came in to helpsupport kids through and it's
not a massive scholarship.
We have to build scholarships,like every sport program does.
(10:39):
But they were critical in thatearly piece and they got those
kids out.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
So back to the deal here.
Sorry, you pick a call, butthey, gordon wanted you because
he could see this thing andsaying, hey, well, you've talked
with him, he's wicked smart.
Yeah, yeah, he's got vision.
Yeah, he certainly does.
So he saw that you go in thecollege.
(11:07):
He knew where the puck wasgoing to be.
He knows where the puck wasgoing to be.
He's skating to the puck, right, that's great.
And so then, how did you startit?
Tell us a little bit how it gotgoing.
Was there already in the nation?
Was there already a?
You said it wasn't the FBSschools, but was there already a
pretty robust program out therethat you'd kind of merged into?
Or how did it start?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Well, so I mean national organizations for
competition are always part ofit, right, In college sports we
know NCAA and we know the NAIA.
Well, the NAIA had started anorganization called NACE.
No one needs to write this down, it's not on the final, but it
was a collection of division one, II and III schools with
(11:47):
esports programs and brought uskind of all together In the
early days when we were schoolnumber 36 and Georgia State was
37, right, it made sense tocircle the wagons that way, but
there are over 800 today.
We get emails every day askingfrom schools who are spinning up
programs.
Can they come and visit ourcampus?
(12:07):
They want to know what we'redoing.
West Virginia right now is inour DMs saying, hey, how'd you
set this part up?
How'd you do this?
We didn't expect that we wouldbe in that position, but we were
early enough.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Right that people want to learn from our mistakes
now, yeah, so you set it up,what are the steps that need to
go into it?
And then how do you recruit?
What I want to get to is Okay,now you have, we're sitting here
looking at your championshiprings on the table here, but
it's a big deal, and you and younow you have a full program.
(12:39):
So going it's a very short timeto go from an idea to full
programs, to winningchampionships every year and
competing for the nationalchampionship every year and
being the premier program or oneof the premier programs in the
country.
So how did you do that?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
So the short version of it is.
We decided we wanted to do it.
Brett Shelton, who was mydepartment chair in ed tech at
the time, said, yeah, let's dothis.
And I had to kind of breadcrumbhim for a little bit.
I would have to send him like,hey, I just need you to read
just the first two paragraphs ofthis article today and then a
couple of days later, will youwatch just the first five
minutes of this video andeventually he's like okay, I get
it, what are we doing?
(13:16):
And so we spun it up.
We drafted an MOU, which waseducation and CID Marty Shemp
was the provost at the time.
He signed it, it went on to andthen we were an official unit
on campus.
We had an account code and itwas on right.
That's how it begun.
(13:39):
And if you have an account code, then you can bring in money.
It's not always easy, but youcan bring in money into a
university and you can start todo things like buy jerseys and
plan for travel and things likethat.
And you know, as strange as thatsounds, we then just outgrew
every space that we had,offended the neighbors by doing
too much stuff with the students.
Right, students were having toomuch fun, right, they were
(14:01):
laughing too much, they wereshowing up too often, and that's
the only way to get change on acampus, right?
Is you get students to stretchthe walls of the space you're in
until they're like, well, wegot to solve this, let's move
them over there.
Okay, let's move them overthere.
So we had three or four homesbefore where we are now, which
is across from Trader Joe'sdowntown, everybody's driven by
the space and going.
What are they doing in there,it's eSports.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
It's awesome.
Yeah, so did you initially thekids that competed, were they
already on campus?
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Yeah, they were walk-on.
We just did local talent searchand you did talent search
reached out to the community andthrough.
There were clubs on campus thatwere playing some of the
different games.
We brought them all in and yeah, Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
So then, why were they so good?
Why did they, why were theywinning immediately?
Speaker 2 (14:48):
well, some of them would tell you we weren't.
We weren't good in thebeginning and we actually lost,
um, a number of.
I mean I think we lost thefirst three mountain west
championships to unlv uh in intwo of the different games.
So, um, it took us a littlewhile to recruit, to build to
that level.
You know be a bigger, moreCalifornia centric area and you
(15:08):
know, like in football therethere are the Texas type places
where they just develop a lot ofreally good talent.
In one thing, I don't knowwhere rowing would be, but you
know, texas football, floridafootball, southern California
and Nevada were really strong inesports back then.
So it wasn't until 2020 that wewon our first title in
(15:31):
something other than RocketLeague in the Mountain West.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
That's great, and what?
So now for us listening.
What are the?
Speaker 2 (15:37):
games oh, okay, everybody has seen it Rocket
League, which is cars playingsoccer right, everybody
recognizes that one.
We play Smash, which is a gameprobably lots of folks have seen
on their Nintendo, and it'slike a 1v1 fighting game.
We're all terrible at it andour children are much better at
(16:01):
it.
The other two that we play astop varsity games are Overwatch,
which is a professional leaguealso, and Valorant, which is
also another, and those are 5v5team games.
We sponsor primarily team games, but we have a college football
25 to 26 player.
We have a Madden player, maddennational champion player.
(16:23):
So those are the primary gamesand every couple of years we
look to see is there somethingdeveloping that we might want to
recruit the next best studentin?
But most schools play the fourthat I mentioned Rocket League,
valorant, overwatch and Smash.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
So now I'm going to get into some really naive
questions.
So you recruit these kids Nowyou have a name brand.
Well, it's Boise State, right,so it's a pretty great place to
come.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah, it really is.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
It kind of sells itself.
I think a lot.
But you get these kids come in.
It's now competitive.
You're kind of picking who youwant to come in.
What's the like?
Do they train, do they?
Speaker 2 (17:05):
I mean like here is where the mysticism kind of
drops a little bit, because itis what you already know.
It is college sports.
It's 20 hours a week, 24 weeksof contact right, grade point
minimums, bronco code.
We're in meetings early in theseason, we're doing the photos
and media, we're watching filmtogether, we're building out
(17:29):
essentially our playbook andpracticing against other teams.
The difference is that we canscrimmage other teams without
leaving home because everybodyplays online, and so we can play
Notre Dame in a scrimmage onTuesday and try to execute our
stuff.
It's just fascinating to me.
Yeah, I mean, that part of itmakes it really cool.
(17:58):
We have in the past sometimeshad practice squads.
You know, folks who are tryingto make the main team that we
can practice against.
But often it's good to teststrategy and how prepared we are
against somebody who just wantsto beat us, no matter what
right.
They're not the B team right,so that makes it really handy.
But it is what you know.
I mean they come after class,have a quick snack in the
fueling station and then they'reat their consoles.
(18:19):
We're going over our practiceplan.
These are the maps we're goingto hit, these are the strategies
we're going to do and here'swhat's the expectation.
We're watching film together,you know so watching film.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
You're actually studying the other teams that
you play Absolutely.
What they do, what theirstrategies are and how you're
going to beat them yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
It's just mind-blowing.
It is.
The fundamental difference inesports is these kids come in
with professional level skillsthat many of them have or could
play professional, and theychoose college instead.
Unlike the big sports wherephysical maturity allows you to
be ready for the NFL, the NBA,wnba any of those or Olympics,
(19:00):
they're usually at their bestbetween 16 and 21, right.
So it tends to overlap and wehave professional players now
who are full-time collegestudents.
We have to hand over their time.
Jonathan Foraker recently hewas in Korea, in Japan, in
Stockholm, sweden, for the WorldChampionships.
He's an Overwatch player for usand a team captain for us, but
(19:21):
he's never stopped his studenttime.
We just hand over hiscompetitive time in those brief
six-week periods where they'redoing the professional stuff.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
What kind of money is there in this for these guys
that play professionally?
I?
Speaker 2 (19:35):
mean tens to hundreds of thousands.
I mean Peyton Tuma, who's ourMadden.
He won the Madden Bowl twice.
He won it first time at 17, andwe're still recruiting him
Right, and he's won a bunch ofMadden tournaments.
I mean, I don't, I don't lookat what his earnings are.
That's not good when you'restate employed to look at what
(19:55):
your students are earning, butit's, I mean, it's in the, it's
in the six and seven figures,his, his success in that game.
So you know, our scholarshipconversation is very different.
I'm like, peyton, would youoffer a scholarship to another
student?
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah, but yeah they can have that kind of success.
Talk about.
One of the things I thought wasfascinating in the video I
watched is so, then, a lot ofit's remote, but then these
championships are held indifferent regions of the country
and it looks very competitive.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
It is yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Because everyone's sitting at tables and kind of
going at it.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
On stage, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Because everyone's sitting at tables and kind of
going at it On stage.
Yeah, and it was.
I thought it was interesting.
It's not March Madness, it'sMay Madness, may Madness, and
it's tournament brackets, thewhole thing.
Talk us through that.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
You bet.
So we were in a number ofdifferent competitive.
It's like golf in a sense thereare majors throughout the year,
right, and there is a bigfinish at the end.
It's the it's where it's.
It is the May madness.
Basketball is the bestcorrelation there, where the
winners from each of theconferences and a lot of the big
(21:04):
conferences play the big 10,right, all the way down to the
peach Belt, right they all bringtheir representatives and they
bracket us up and we just climbto the top right.
So it's the top 64 teamsactually top 16 teams in four
different games, climbing toVita, that national championship
.
So it's pretty cool, but it isexactly what you would think it
(21:28):
would be.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Over what period of time is the competition?
It's a weekend, right you?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
qualify for and then it's it's all or nothing.
Um, in the last three yearsit's been in uh in arlington,
texas.
We think this year it'll be inlas vegas that's great yeah,
it's good for us.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
We can get our fans to las vegas, so I also saw so
so talk about, uh, jeremiah andthe department of athletics and
yeah, and cody and kind and kindof how they've kind of embraced
this yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Apologies to any of your University of Idaho
graduates that are listening,because this is always painful
to listen to, but we are in thegood old days right now.
I don't think people realize.
You do.
You've spoken with him, you'veheard people talk about him.
Jeremiah is special andsingular.
His drive is fearless.
(22:19):
He's looking for epic all thetime.
What's next is not just abranding decision, it is a
strategy is a strategy.
And he was on campus just Imean maybe two weeks, and he and
Cody invited me I didn't.
They didn't know who.
I was right, that's what Ithought Invited me to breakfast
(22:42):
and said you're on our big plan.
We've got a big runway here ofall these things we've got to
hit and we've seen all thethings that they've been hitting
and when the time is right.
And we spent about two yearsjust like working on how this
would fit and what we would needand bring it in.
But we live in the best time tobe a Bronco period, and I've
(23:02):
been a Bronco since 1990.
So there have been some goodtimes, but he is the leader that
he appears to be.
He is the.
I mean he messaged me beforebefore I came in today saying
you're gonna love it.
He's so creative, his questionsare so good.
You're gonna have a great time.
I mean, he's engaged in thisand I wouldn't think this would
(23:23):
be at his level of uh, ofattention.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Yeah it uh, I don't know.
I've been around a long timedifferent sectors of medicine
and politics and business Idon't know that I've ever met a
guy quite like him.
I think the motor is one thing,a lot of people that work hard,
but I think the vision on thefront end and then the clarity
(23:46):
in which he kind of communicatesplans to everyone, and it's
just dang inspirational.
I mean he just drives you towant to be better and be part of
something bigger than you are.
It's pretty remarkable.
I think, to your point,sometimes we go so hard at life
that you don't appreciate what'shappening right here in front
(24:08):
of you.
And I think, frankly, with himand just where he is and his
drive and what he sees, I hopehe knows how much he means to
this community right now.
I mean sincerely.
You look at what's happened in avery short time and what we're
(24:29):
on the precipice of doing as acommunity, and Boise State is
the front porch of the state.
Yep, I mean, I know I meanSorry, vandals, but yeah, it
just is.
I mean and I, everywhere I gowhen I travel, it's oh, boise
State, right, yeah, boise State,boise State, boise State, the
(24:51):
brand I mean.
And then you look at just thelast few years and everything,
including what you're doing, andit's not just football, it's
not just basketball, it's notjust the major sports.
If you look at the women'ssports, if you look at soccer
and your stuff.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Oh yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
It's across the board .
Speaker 2 (25:10):
And he supports it all.
Yeah, he does, and he willdeflect and say, well, he's got
a great team around him.
But there are three things thathe has directly taught me that
I use every day.
One is that he says it's hisobligation to provide his group
attitude, energy and work ethicevery day.
If he does those things, heknows he's doing a good job as a
(25:32):
leader.
Right, and those are plasteredon my monitor at work, right?
The other thing is that histhree years up or out philosophy
which I don't think you guystalked about, but I've caught it
on other podcasts when he wasclimbing ladders.
He's like I have to changewhere I.
I've got three years to like,absolutely magnify this position
that I'm in so that it becomessomething bigger, or that I am
(25:56):
wanted somewhere else, andthat's a big part.
So I'm thinking of my own lifeon that three-year clock.
How can I turn this intosomething?
How can I go from one assistantcoach to three assistant
coaches?
How can we add positions?
How can we add scholarships?
Where can we grow to to borrowagainst Spencer?
Where are we add positions?
How can we add scholarships?
Right?
Where can we grow to to borrowagainst Spencer, right?
Where are we growing to?
Those are huge ones to me andthere's a piece of evidence that
(26:20):
this place is special.
He's going to be the mostsought after AD anywhere we
better get used to.
You know people showinginterest in him and he's got to
give some respect to thoseoffers or it puts Boise State in
a bad position.
I don't know who it would beTexas calls.
I mean that would be the bigone.
(26:40):
I don't know that.
That would be his mothership,but everybody will tell you the
grass isn't bluer on the otherside.
I mean, we see Dirk here intown.
He wants to be a part of it.
He could be a coach anywhere,right.
We see Chris coming back allthe time.
He's standing on the sideline.
The grass isn't bluer.
This is an extra special spaceand we are in the golden age
(27:06):
right now.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Yeah, I think, well said Amen.
I mean, I just it's, it's, youknow, enjoy every moment of it.
The president search is reallyinteresting.
It is look at, you know just,the campus and research and the
(27:30):
growth and where it's headed,the importance of higher
education to a community, to astate, and then on the athletic
side, and you put both of thosetogether with the brand and the
location and the beauty ofcampus and it's just, it's
amazing.
And you talked a little bitabout Custer.
You go back to those days.
(27:50):
I mean people don't rememberthe Great Recession.
It's like it never happenedRight, and it was so vivid still
in my mind, just how dark anddeep and ugly it was 2007, 2008,
kids.
That's when it was.
It was horrific and thiscommunity was just crippled.
(28:11):
And at the time here was BobKustra, like just busting at the
seams and saying, hey, we'regoing to do this, and coming
across the river with computerscience.
I remember going into it wascrazy because Amy Mall who's
still there right having thevision to pull that department
(28:32):
off campus and put it indowntown in our building and it
was not easy.
I remember going to some ofthose early meetings and, like
some of the tenured professors,saying what we're doing, what?
Speaker 2 (28:42):
It'll never work.
It's too far away.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
It's too far away.
We solved all the problems andnow you look at the campus and
the growth and how it all fitsin the city.
There's just so many amazingthings about it and I think you
think of what it means to thefamilies of Idaho and the kids
that grow up here and you canstay here.
You don't want to go anywhereelse.
(29:04):
You want to go to Boise State.
That's all happened.
It's happened over a period oftime with tremendous leaders.
People follow people.
That was a big preamble to mynext question.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Okay, it's a great preamble.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
One of the things that, when your name comes up,
everyone brings up is you areone of those transformational
leaders.
You inspire people and justtoday, being around you, it's
pretty infectious.
What are your principles ofleadership and what drives you,
motivates you, you, you.
It's pretty infectious.
What are your principles ofleadership and what drives you,
motivates you.
It's thoughtful.
So there's something to belearned here today for us being
(29:39):
with you.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Well, let me be completely transparent.
I started this job when wetransitioned into esports and
that was going to be myfull-time gig.
It was a year where I stilltaught some classes.
Then I was getting buyouts ofsome of my courses so I could
put more time into it.
Everybody supported my decision.
It was Gordon Jones who saidlet's take you from clinical
associate professor to headcoach, right, which means I set
(30:06):
aside any tenure and promotion.
I left the academic trackcompletely and I became staff.
I went from nine months to 12months.
Right, this was his vision.
It was a little bit scary.
I realized pretty quickly withinthe first year and a half that
while I loved being around thestudents, I had no real training
(30:29):
in how to be a head coach, andnot in the X's, no's part of
head coach.
But how do you get studentsfrom one place into another
place?
How do you get them ready?
How do you get them to notargue with each other?
Where's that culture come from?
And I just had to go to work.
I realized I'm the problem.
We haven't won any MountainWest titles except in Rocket
(30:52):
League.
You know, we got to get betterat recruiting.
I got to fix me right and Iwould argue that that is that
self-improvement that you see inthe academic.
Well, excuse me, the athleticyou know compound all the time.
It comes from Jeremiah throughCody and that whole group.
So I started studying everyfootball coach.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
I could.
So it's interesting, as you saythis, I'm going to interrupt you
as we go through this, I thinkthere's some things to learn
here, but I'm around a lot ofpeople sometimes this idea that
you never stop growing, younever stop looking for your
weaknesses and you say I amgoing to improve and become.
Yeah, I'm going to become whatI want to be by doing each day
(31:38):
what I want to become.
Right, right, and so for you itwas I'm going to grow as a
leader, I'm going to grow as acoach.
People follow people.
Yes, I got great examplesaround me, but I need to become
something right, yep.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
That me, but I need to become something right,
that's powerful.
I need to become more than I am, and that's a common theme on
this conversation with all thefolks I think Carolyn's one more
recently talking exactly aboutthat what can you become?
She's become an amazing mentorand leader, right, it's not just
the doing of the thing, andthat becomes a responsibility of
(32:08):
everybody who improves enoughis to share.
You can't keep that secret.
So I just started reading,consuming multiple times,
marking up copies of everycoaching book.
There were a couple that werereally strong for me the Urban
Meyer Above the Line book whenhe was at Ohio State, because he
identified culture as somethingyou teach.
(32:30):
So these are the principles youbelieve in, and he uses Tim
Kite's philosophy, as do I, injust the way we prepare our
students.
So gamers, despite what peoplewould think, there's no vaping
in mom's basement of this group.
They're all a National HonorSociety 4.0 students.
I mean we recruit the absolutebest of the best as students who
happen to be amazing gamers,but some of them came in with
(32:54):
sports but we didn't give themlike, here's our culture, here's
what we do and we don't do.
We don't blame, complain,defend.
We always look for where we cantake responsibility or
accountability.
Let's own this right and that's.
I mean that's what Spence doeswith football and they have a
definite culture.
I mean that's what Spence doeswith football and they have a
definite culture.
I mean he's even said ityesterday.
(33:15):
Right Is that?
Is that we're we're gonna.
We're gonna reap what we sow,and right now we're sowing
everything we're going to needlater in the season.
And you have to have thatmessage.
And I learned that the hard wayafter a few years of you know,
some frustrated students causewe weren't hitting the levels
that we did.
What I look for now when we'retrialing or actually trying out
(33:35):
players that are coming fromhigh school, is how frustrated
and disappointed can we get them?
Because I want to know what'sour starting position with
discomfort because they're goingto have a lot of it.
It's a strange flex, but we'velost more national championship
games than anyone else in thePEC has ever played in.
(33:58):
Now we've won six, but we'velost five times where we thought
we were going to bring home thetrophy, and some of those are
quite painful.
I mean the video piece that yousaw recently.
We lost a ball state on thebiggest stage there is, and you
need to know that you have theright people on there.
(34:18):
If that happens, what happensthen?
Right.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
So winning and losing are all part of a culture and
you have to do both of them theright way, or it's kind of a
waste of everybody's time do youever um, as, as a head coach,
um you know the responsibilityyou have, the privilege you have
of interacting with these youngpeople and teaching them about
(34:48):
life, and and and the principlesthat will make them successful
in whatever they choose to dolater on.
Do you ever think about howprofound that is?
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Yeah, I probably.
Of all of my peers in thecoaching circle, many of them
are at more of that ambitiousstage.
They don't have a lot ofself-reflection and I'll get
choked up.
Yeah, so you got me.
You got me, put this one on thereel.
But I get choked up.
Being on stage You'll often seenowadays kind of a huddle,
(35:22):
either before or after, becausethat group of people will share
that one singular momenttogether and carry it for the
rest of our lives and no oneelse will know what that feels
like except us All.
The struggle that we wentthrough to get there, all the
personal conflict that peoplewant in the same seat and wanted
(35:43):
to start but someone had to bea backup, and matches we lost,
matches we won.
They wrap all of that upbecause this is a brief stop for
them.
I'm the lucky one that I get todo this, hopefully another 10,
15 years.
But this is a tiny littlesliver in their life and they're
going to go on and become thenext thing.
(36:04):
But we joke about the rings.
But the nice thing about thoserings is they're kind of a
magical object.
They're a talisman of thisexperience that that group of
people had in that place.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
And very symbolic.
I mean, we need, I don't think,and I think sometimes, ambition
you kind of said it ambitionand drive, and where you are and
you're just, it's always kindof like going for the next thing
.
Sometimes it's only onafterwards we reflect back.
I wish I would have savored, Iwish and I think, the symbolism
(36:42):
of these things like rings yeah,so for those listening that
aren't watching on YouTube, wegot a whole box of championship,
a box of steel and I don't know, and each one of those probably
have a deep story of who wasthere, what it meant to you.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Exactly, and that is the reason for the ring.
My sweet wife Allie does notwant me to wear the rings at
Costco, but I think that'd be agreat place, because then you
stop and tell a story about thegroup of people who did this
thing.
But on the back of this one isthe word endure, which is very
important to this group of fourstudents who were with the
(37:15):
experience this year.
This is a world championshipring, but it's in black because
they ended up canceling the liveevent because of an issue.
So we qualified for the worldchampionships for the second
year in a row and they didn'thold it the second year in a row
.
So it was sad in a lot of ways.
There were also some veryprofound personal things that
(37:35):
happened within the team parentslosing their home, students
having these really difficulttimes and we all came together.
We were in this thing together.
I love those students more thananything, and this just reminds
us.
This is the thing we learnedthat year that we can endure
(37:56):
hard things right, and this isthe reminder to us all of us
that we're not done with hardthings, but we've got proof that
we did some pretty amazingthings when we shouldn't have
been able to.
That's just awesome.
Yeah, that's what the rings do.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
I just want to make sure we give you plenty of time.
So are there ways that peoplecan find out more?
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
What are ways the community can get more involved
in what you do?
So let's talk through that.
You bet you got your website.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Yeah, and we're on the athletic site now too, which
is pretty, that's it.
To me, that's surreal, right,that's surreal.
It is the right home for us,culturally, if nothing else.
But yeah, I mean people canjump in on the website anytime
and find out.
I mean, our games are about tobe listed on there Pretty much
when school starts.
Expect Monday through Thursday.
(38:49):
We're competing and everyone iswelcome to come.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
So talk about the facility and talk about people
coming by.
I don't know.
Tell us what we need to knowabout your program and how the
community can be more involvedand help.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
You bet We've got a dedicated 7,000-square-foot
space downtown.
I think it's actually more thanthat.
I saw something recently it wasnine so I think we calculated
it wrong but as a spectatorarena our players play on a
stage big old, cool lights andstuff like that.
We have live broadcasts.
We do about 30 hours of livecontent a week.
(39:26):
Everybody can watch ourdocumentary now on KIVI.
It's on every Tuesday now.
Everybody can watch ourdocumentary now on KIVI.
It's on every Tuesday.
Now I think it's probably goingto get a second life and a run
somewhere else, which is that,to me, is really surprising.
We modeled the above the linekind of videography after what
they were doing with the climb,right, yeah?
So I went to athletics and wentoh, we should do that so we can
give people an insight intowhat we do.
(39:47):
We didn't know that it wouldmake TV.
By the end of the year We'dhave to reformat it for TV.
But the best way that folks caninteract is and even if they
just don't get it, just comedown and tour Noon to 9 every
(40:09):
day.
But Sunday you can just walkthe esports facility downtown
right, onsports facilitydowntown right on the corner of
Capitol in front.
Um, it's.
It couldn't be a betterlocation for us, right Across
from Trader Joe's, and come inand see where the players
practice, see the coaches in thein the meeting room, see the
studio, see the arena sit in oneof the theater seats which were
taken out of the?
Uh real theater, uh, uh countryclub that when they closed down
the real theater country club,when they closed down the
(40:30):
discount theater on Overland.
Yeah, same seats.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
That's cool.
And then for kids that may beinterested parents out there
that have kids they're like hey,my son or daughter would love
to be part of this.
What's that process like?
Speaker 2 (40:45):
There are 70 high schools in the state state of
idaho that are playing umesports.
Yeah, we host the statechampionships every year and
recruit heavily from the statechampionships.
That's why you want to host it,um, but yeah, from all over the
state.
Um that, if, if they're inschool, they, uh, middle schools
are now spinning up differentteams in different games um, all
(41:07):
of them T-rated games, right?
No one plays Colleges, don'tscholarship, at least none of
the big ones in M-rated games,because high school kids can't
play right.
So it's team games, it'sT-rated games, and they should
just ask does our high schoolhave a program?
And many of them do so.
(41:29):
There are some really good onesaround, but they can come and
watch and meet the players.
Players will take time to talkto them.
It's a good deal and they canalways watch stuff on YouTube.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
I just thought of one other question.
So it's been with technologychanging as rapidly.
It does talk about theequipment kind of technology
side of this and yeah a whatyou've kind of seen in your time
as the head coach, and what?
What should we expect in thefuture?
What's what's coming down thepipe?
Speaker 2 (42:01):
well.
So a lot of students will say,you know, high school students
say, mom, dad, I need the latest, you know uber system.
But the truth is most of thegames are engineered for three
to five year old systems becauseif they to make them only for
the top system, who's going toplay?
Yeah, right.
So sorry, kids.
Um, you should, yeah, youshould, try to get a good one,
(42:22):
but, um, that the most importantthing.
If somebody wants to play atthe next level, your grades got
to be good.
That's the first question weask in the recruiting process.
What are your grades?
Because I can, I can make you abetter player.
Um, if you're not alreadydialed into being a student,
that's a, that's a wrestlingmatch, right, you know to get
kids to to the right level.
(42:42):
So we're looking for 3.8 orhigher for scholarships and we
give 175,000 scholarshipsannually.
Wow, trying to drive thatnumber up still, yeah, I mean
graduated 40 Hall of Famers sofar with a relatively small
budget and we're really close toglobal takeover.
(43:05):
You know it's pretty cool, butyou know here's what's really.
But we, you know we, here's,here's what's really cool is
that we're.
We're at that phase that thatbasketball um, uh, was before
you know uh, before Larry andKaren came along and built that
basketball facility for them,before you know um, you know
(43:25):
Alan and and uh and D, you knowthe Nobles built that space.
Right, we're at the right placeto build our facility, to find
our Keith and Catherine Stein,you know, to build our family.
That is going to make it agenerational piece for us and
(43:45):
that's where, I mean, we want totalk about where the puck's
going to be.
That's where the puck is goingto be.
We're, we're really close, um,we're only a couple years away.
We want to be a host site forum, for the usa esports olympic
um training center.
Right, they're going to movethat around.
You know why not idaho?
Yeah, well, why somewhere elseis the better question, right,
(44:07):
how about?
How about us?
So those are.
You know, we talk about threeyears right, up or out.
That's our up.
It's like, okay, how do weposition ourselves?
And equipment is a huge part ofthat.
I mean, the grass isn't bluerbecause we've got HP here.
We've got Micron here.
That's kind of too much powerright.
We've got people who believe inthese kids and don't think that
(44:32):
it should exist somewhere else.
I mean, it came from thatoriginal message of Alabama.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
I just sorry I know we're getting late into this,
but what about the future ofgaming?
Talk about like, just where'sthis thing heading, with 3D and
realistic stuff.
You read stuff all the time ofwhere we're headed, but what's
your take on that?
Speaker 2 (44:54):
It's kind of like the technology changes in other
sports.
There's been technology changesin rowing and swimming and
speed suits and no speed suitsand things like that, but the
mechanics are the same.
You put a team of peopletogether.
Everybody has the same toolsand it's how do you work
(45:17):
together to overcome what theopponent is trying to do?
If it becomes that we'reviewing these with VR goggles
awesome, but the mechanics arethe same.
It's comms, it's preparation.
It's never take a fair fight.
It's what's your job, what's myjob.
Let's get that honed reallywell and we can beat anybody.
As things become more mobile,maybe we'll play on some mobile
(45:41):
platforms, as meta and these VRpieces.
They're really fun.
But as they become moreimportant, maybe we'll dial into
what it takes to do thosethings.
But right now, it's a standardhome PC with a 25-inch monitor.
That's essentially the playingfield for the majority of
students and that's where thegames live right now.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
That's where they live right now.
When is the VR stuff going tohit, do you think?
Speaker 2 (46:06):
People said for a long time that once we got up
over 120 frames or 140 frames asecond in the goggles people
would stop having motion effect.
And it's up into the 240s nowand it's still not everything
people want.
When it stops being somethingthat distracts us, I think that
it'll be more prevalent.
We dabble in it a couple timesa year just doing different
(46:30):
little things, but competitively, I mean.
The real tech is how do you getkids with great grades to come
to Boise State?
That's the part that we've beenworking on.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Yeah, it's interesting that you come back
around to that which it's aboutthe kids been working on.
Yeah, it's interesting that youcome back around to that which
it's about the kids right, ahundred percent, I think uh now
that I've spent time with you.
Uh, it's clear why why you'vegot the reputation you do, but,
um, the fact that it's authenticand it's about them, and it's
about this place and Boise state.
Let's end on that.
What does this place mean toyou?
Speaker 2 (47:15):
I'll get.
I'll get teary again.
This is, this is everything.
Yeah, yeah, it was.
I mean, uh met my sweetheart 32years ago.
You know, on campus we cheeredtogether.
You know thank you for notouting me as as a former buster
bronco, but in in 92 I was acheerleader and I I was in heavy
rotation in the suit becausebuster was a cheerleader back
then, part of the spirit squadright, and Julie Stevens,
superstar local coach for us,but Allie was a Boise high
(47:38):
graduate.
I mean, everything that I havehas come from this university,
all three degrees, my bestfriend of 32 years, four
children, five grandchildren,you know everything is is got
got little little blue dust onit and and so I had a chance.
(47:58):
A couple of years ago I got alot of interest from another
university and I it's not we can, we can say Ole Miss now were
building a big um center downthere and they wanted to
interview me and I agreed to godown for an interview and as
soon as they published it online, dr trump had listeners, uh,
(48:18):
jeremiah had listeners.
Both of them called me whenthey released the schedule and,
uh, and and asked that the bestquestion I've ever heard, which
is what would it take for you tonot get on that plane?
That's what everyone would wantto hear, right, that you're
important enough to us, so wewant to make sure that you're
(48:39):
happy here.
And, let's be honest, I wasnever going to Ole Miss.
I mean, I don't want to takeaway my negotiating power,
negotiating power but Allie, whosupports everything I do
professionally, told me that ifI went to Oxford Mississippi,
she'd try to visit as often asshe could.
So with children, grandchildren, in the state we're not very
mobile, but it was the impetusthat this is a really special
(49:05):
place and people, people know it.
Um, but now it's what?
What can I do, um, to get itready for the, for the next
group?
I mean, I'm, I'm on the backend of of a career, still
ambitious, but back end of acareer.
What does it look like?
What is the?
What does the building looklike?
(49:25):
I don't need a statue, but Iwould take another 40 or 50
graduates that do what ours do.
I mean Kellen McGurk, and themost successful Kellen in Boise
State history, was an Overwatchplayer for us and now he works
on Capitol Hill for thelegislature.
I mean, I want more of thoseright, so Well hey, thank you.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
This has been awesome .
Thank you for coming on.
You're awesome and forinspiring all that you do, and
this has been really, really fun.
We really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
I appreciate you.
This is awesome.
Speaker 1 (49:57):
Let us know what we can do to help anytime.
Thanks, man, you rock.
Thanks everybody.
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