When Steve Martinez talks housing, people listen—and for good reason. With nearly three decades of experience and a front-row seat to the booms, busts, and battles shaping Idaho’s growth, the Tradewinds owner delivers an unfiltered look at what’s really driving the state’s housing crisis.
In this episode, Steve shares his personal journey from working in his father’s construction company to building a business that weathered the 2008 recession and continues to adapt to today’s pressures.
You’ll learn:
•Why Idaho’s rapid growth isn’t all good news—and what’s fueling it
•The shocking impact of a $1,000 home price increase on buyers
•Why starter homes are disappearing, and what needs to replace them
•How permits, regulations, and politics are slowing everything down
•The disconnect between anti-growth sentiment and the push for affordability
•Why labor shortages and policy decisions are hitting builders hard
•What industry leaders are watching now: interest rates, tariffs, and buyer behavior
If you care about where Idaho is headed—and who gets to live there—this is a must-listen conversation. Hit play for a candid, boots-on-the-ground perspective you won’t get from the headlines.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today on the Ever Onward podcast we have Steve
Martinez.
He's the president and owner ofTradewinds.
It's a very great home builderhere in Idaho.
He's been in the constructionindustry for 27 years, 24 of
those as owner of Tradewinds.
Steve is also very involved inall things leadership here in
the Valley along housing.
He has just finished as thechairman of the Federal
(00:23):
Government Affairs Committee forthe National Home Builders
Association.
He spends a lot of time inWashington DC and in the
statehouse affecting all thingsthat are legislative around
housing and home building inIdaho.
It's going to be great to getcaught up with him on all things
housing in the Treasure Valley.
Steve man, this is great.
(00:51):
Hey, we're trying to catch uphere.
I know I've known you forever.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
We haven't seen each other for a long time.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Well, we've been wanting to have you on for a
while.
You've been in the buildingindustry a long time.
I kind of was born into it.
I didn't have a choice.
Let's start there.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, how's your dad?
He's doing awesome.
You know, it's kind of funny.
I bought him out in 06 and hewas retired for about 30 seconds
and then he came back to workand, uh, you know, he would go
long enough to where I'd get acall from my mom.
She'd say, hey, you got to sendhim home.
You're just working him todeath, all right.
So I'd send him home.
(01:27):
That guy's built one way,though.
Pretty soon she'd call andshe'd say you got to get him out
of the house, he's driving menuts.
Put him on a job site.
And so it really was.
He turned 79 this year.
Is he 79?
There's no way, yeah.
And it really was about lastyear where he said all right, I
need to get off the job.
He's 79.
He does not look 79.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
No, and doesn't act 79.
Yeah, doesn't act 79.
I mean, I don't know why I justdidn't.
I did not expect that.
I expected like 70.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Yeah, no, yeah, I mean he still goes a hundred
miles an hour.
How's your mom?
She's doing awesome.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
They're doing great.
Well, you've had.
So talk a little.
I do want to get into someother stuff, because I wanted to
talk industry the housingindustry the valley, all that
stuff.
But I do just background.
Pretty cool to grow up with himand you getting right into it
and then kind of buying him outearly.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
I mean you've owned the company now for I was 26
when I bought him out, 26 whenyou bought him out I mean,
you've owned the company now forI was 26 when I bought it, 26
when you bought it I don't knowhow many people especially in
today's day and age of justlooking at the youth and where
they're at and that waspre-Great Recession, absolutely
so, you know, at 27, that was2006.
So 2007, I was like man, I amking of the world, I'm going to
do this five more years and I'mdone.
(02:40):
And then I got years and I'mdone.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
And then, uh, I got my master's in building
essentially in 2008, because itwas four years of just grind.
Is it for, like, steve, you'reyoung, but like for guys that,
uh, there's a lot of people thatdon't remember it right or
don't talk about it, and for alot of us that were went through
it, it, it, it just feels likeit wasn't that long ago in a lot
of ways, and it feels like itdidn't even happen in some ways.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
It's interesting Just this year my PTSD of 08 is
slowly going away.
And it's interesting because Iremember I think it was in 08 or
09, my dad said this is thebest thing that could have
happened to you.
And when you're going throughit, all you want to do is slap
the person that says that.
And yet you know he started thecompany in 1980.
(03:25):
So probably the second worsttime to be in business.
You know interest rates werecrazy.
I mean I remember we weretaking trades for work.
I mean he would come home witha motorcycle or a piano or you
know a clock.
I mean just he would bringstuff home and my mom would just
shake her head like what are wedoing?
And and that's just, you justtraded for work then.
(03:47):
So, um, looking back, itabsolutely was the best thing
that could have happened to meat a young age, because I saw so
many guys you tend toretirement, tend to plan.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Once you go through it and I've tried to explain
this it so bad and there werereally just you'd like I don't,
I don't know the way out of thisthing.
So much of it was not in yourcontrol, everything.
And then you kind of figure outa pathway and you find your way
through it.
You're like I don't ever wantthat to happen again.
So what do you find yourselfdoing?
At least me everything we do islike okay, what's the worst
(04:20):
thing that can happen?
And sometimes drives peoplecrazy.
You're like well, that's notgonna happen.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Yeah, you're like, yeah, no, the wave eventually
crashes, and that was one thing.
Um, and, and what's sad is it'skept me from a lot of
opportunity, but it's also keptmy neck off the chopping block.
Yeah, when there's beencorrections, and you know it, I
always say that that was kind ofa once-in-a-lif lifetime event.
And yet covid, yeah, then wasanother once in a lifetime event
(04:46):
and so these once in a lifetimeevents I'm kind of getting over
like um, but I feel like I'verun my business, like 2008 is
around the corner, um but, andit's it's kept me so let's,
let's talk.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Uh well, I'm gonna jump a lot, a little bit all
over here, but before we leaveyour dad, because I do want to
get into, like, all thequestions, because because it
will be good for peoplelistening to get the Steve
Martinez experience of housingand where we're at and where
we're headed and all thosethings.
I think that's tremendouslyvaluable.
But before we leave your dad,incredible guy.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
I will tell you this Having him at the helm, whether
it's in business um, in mypersonal life, I mean, that's
really what has saved me.
In business um, he was reigningme in in 06 and 07, you know,
when I wanted to conquer theworld, yeah, saying, you know,
ease up, this doesn't lastforever.
You gotta, you know, take it instride, um.
(05:42):
And then in 08, when it was the, you know, the darkest hour in
09 and 10, 11, 12, he was rightthere alongside of me, coaching
me through all that um, and Ithink that's in life, having a
coach, um, having somebody onyou know, next to you.
There was a lot of people thatdidn't have that and, uh, you
know, struggled alone.
And not to, you know, make myexperience any better or any
(06:04):
worse, but having him attachedat the hip couldn't have been a
better situation.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
What are some of the qualities that make him he's a
unique guy?
What are some of the qualitiesthat you admire in Ted?
Speaker 2 (06:17):
It's funny.
He said never take a risk withyour reputation.
That is something that's alwaysstuck with me.
This town is so small and hewas born and raised here.
He came from very, very humblebeginnings.
You know my grandma worked thefields, as you know, from all
across the country, fromMichigan all the way to
(06:38):
California.
You know, depending on what wasin season, the home that he
grew up in, the home that wegrew up in, I mean just very
humble beginnings and I thinkthat's always stuck with him.
He's never gotten too big forhis britches.
You know he's always helpingpeople To a fault where, as kids
, we were always annoyed likedad quit doing that.
(07:01):
You know enough.
Or you know this person'sdriving us nuts.
Why do you keep giving them achance?
You know he's probably startedmore businesses in this valley
for people getting them on theirfeet.
You know when guys go out ontheir own and teaching them how
to run business and you knowthey may be a great framer but a
terrible business person and sohe's helped get them through
that.
So he's always, you know,quietly been helping people and
(07:25):
I love it.
It's something that, growing upthat way as a kid, you don't
appreciate it until you get to apoint and you see how many
people he's helped throughoutthe process.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Thanks for sharing that.
I think, doing this as long aswe have now, I love hearing a
little bit what's behindsuccessful people, yeah, and
usually there's someone that'ssuper influential that has said
hey, and when it's your father?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
it's even better, right?
Well, and you and I have seenthere are a lot of successful
people in this valley and thereare people you want to be like
and there are definitely peopleyou don't, yeah, and everywhere
in between, and so that's, Ithink, the clientele that I work
with.
I get to see all types and Iget to see the, the qualities of
people that that you want toemulate, and I think that's
that's my dad to a tee, yeahwell, I wanted to hit that for
(08:12):
sure with you today because he'smade an impact on me, he's been
a, he's been a great exampleand and and for you a legacy.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
yeah, absolutely.
So let's get, let's get into it.
So then we get through thevalley here, if you go back to
because I like, to me it's kindof this really important kind of
date for me, like it happenedand then you get to 12, and it's
a little better Starting tocrawl out.
Starting to crawl out.
(08:40):
Never really easy, though, fora while, because it took a while
out.
Never really easy, though, fora while, because it took a while
.
And then it seems like um, youknow, then then the coasts are
going nuts, yeah, like justgoing nuts.
They've lost their minds.
Well, I call I I joke.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
I say the cows are coming home.
So california, oregon andwashington, the cows are coming
home.
And that really was, and we'vealways had that migration.
So it wasn't.
This isn't a new thing, butit's almost like someone poured
gas on the fire and it justexploded and it went from.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Idaho Boise.
To everywhere you went Like, oh, that's the place right.
And then let's talk about why.
Because I think for people,they want to shut it off now,
which is an interesting concept.
But if you look at why peopleare attracted to here, it's why
we're attracted to here.
It's an incredible place toraise your family.
You look at the beauty, youlook at the spring day we're in
(09:34):
today.
Absolutely there's just nothing.
The outdoors things and howclean and safe, and the politics
.
Quality of life, the quality oflife, it really.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
is it the politics, the?
Speaker 1 (09:43):
quality of life.
I mean, it's just somethingwith schools.
Yeah, you start going down thelist.
It's a great place to come um,that that was discovered.
I, I had to, for I, I I lookedup something for for someone the
other day and I just looked athome values of of homes and I
was shocked like just blown away.
Yeah, what happened and it wasso it's probably like it was
(10:03):
probably 13, 14, 15 away.
Yeah, what happened and it wasso it's probably like it was
probably 13, 14 15, it still wasprobably okay and then it just
took off.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
It did and and part of that it was supply and demand
we were, we got caughtflat-footed.
Um, and I know that that theanswer always seems build more,
build more.
But when you have a largeamount of people coming into an
area and I saw it actually inthe recession in North Dakota
when the oil got discovered notdiscovered, but when fracking
(10:32):
became a big deal and everybodyand their dog came into North
Dakota, it just pushed all thelocal people out and it pushed
pricing so high rent, so highcost of living.
And I kind of joke, because I'musually one of the first
contacts of people coming intothe state and they get here and
they say, well, this isn't anycheaper than where I came from.
Like, I thought I was getting adeal.
(10:53):
And I have to explain to themthat if you're coming here for
the deal, that's probably notnow, but there's 10,000 other
reasons why you should be coming.
And, um, I also have to kind ofmellow people out where, um,
they come in and they're, youknow, coming for, let's say,
political reasons and we'regoing to save, you know, the
state from itself.
(11:14):
And I say, well, relax, youknow, and we're actually pretty
middle of the road in idaho andand uh, it's interesting, I had
a client one time that, uh, youknow, sent me their ballot,
their sample ballot, and markedwho they thought that we would
love to vote for.
And I said, oh, we're in theweeds here.
And they said what?
No, we're saving you, we'rehelping.
(11:35):
And I kind of explained it andshe said well, you understand,
coming from where we're comingfrom, you have to be goofy left
or goofy right to hopefully endup in the middle.
And I said Idaho's about asmiddle as it comes.
I said we tend to ebb and flowon that line and so you don't
have to get goofy right to savethe state from itself.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Yeah, you don't, and let's talk a little bit about
that.
You've become prettypolitically involved, I mean
nationally.
You've been part of thenational organizations.
You've been one of the leadersof the home building industry
here in the state.
So I do want to dive a littledeeper on that, because it's
been an interesting.
It sounds too easy to be supplyand demand, but we did get
(12:23):
caught flat footed, we reallydid.
And then I would love to hearyour perspective on okay, now
jump forward another 10 yearsfrom that.
We have COVID in the middle ofthat Right, which I think if
COVID didn't happen or didhappen, it was another wave of
people that came in Because nowyou had COVID, I can live
(12:43):
anywhere.
Well, I'm reacting to COVID.
So one issue.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
And so they said we got to get out of here no matter
what.
And so I think it brought in awave of a different mentality to
the state.
We've had it so good for solong in Idaho that politically
we've been on autopilot.
Our candidates, our electedofficials, haven't been goofy.
I mean, we've probably alwayshad goofy, but they haven't been
(13:30):
far right far left just middleof the road.
Common sense, business friendly, just business friendly,
capitalism.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, they realize small business friendly, small
business friendly, and I thinkthere's a difference there.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
And so we've had it too good too long.
Realize small business,friendly small business yes, I
think there's a difference there.
Um, and so we've had it toogood too long.
And what I realized a few yearsback was that pretty soon we
were getting hijacked at everylevel and I don't care, you know
.
For a while it was like, well,we're gonna just go after you
know things that really affectus.
And now it was like we got tobe looking at school boards and
we got to be looking I mean hoa,president's joking but like we
(14:02):
got to look at across thespectrum because it really is.
There's an anti-growthsentiment, there's uh, I mean,
I'm surprised when I go to acity council meeting at how many
people willingly say well, whenI moved here last month, this
isn't what I moved here for andwe need to stop the growth.
And it's like you can't stopthe growth and if you stop the
(14:24):
growth, all you do is raise theprice.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
So let's, I want you to help me explain this.
Because if you, if you spendtime around the country and you
look at communities that havekind of wrecked themselves, it
is regulation that wrecksthemselves Right 100% and that
comes in weird ways because youhave the kind of nimbyism that
(14:47):
causes regulation.
You have whatever reasonoverreach from government
causing regulation.
There's a lot of ways.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Regulation comes, in different forms, right.
It's death by a thousand cuts.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Yes, so you have all these different things, trying
to say I don't like this, Idon't like this, I don't like
that.
And pretty soon you've narroweddown the free market system
that provides options for people, which I wish people could
understand.
That just drives up costs.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
I I had this discussion with an elected
official that was really goingaround the the county and and
actually other counties to tryto stop growth.
And I met with this person.
I said, hey, let's be part ofthe solution Instead of just no,
close the border, lock the door.
Let's figure out a way to makethis work and take all the
(15:34):
credit, bring everybody together.
It's not about that, but let'sfind a way to find a path
forward.
And they said well, the problemis, all my constituents are
coming to me and they'recomplaining about property taxes
and their values are going upand their values are going up
and we've got to slow this down.
I said, okay, I get thatcomponent.
But I said it's econ 101.
(15:54):
It's not my major, so I'm noteven going to pretend that I'm
an econ major.
But I said econ 101 says thatwe restrict the supply but we
still have the demand.
I said if they're mad this year?
I said if you stop all buildingwhich they wouldn't, but if you
stopped all building, where doyou think prices are going to be
in a year from now With thesame amount of people coming in
(16:17):
now?
No local people will be able tobuy and we will be 100 percent
reliant on out ofstate people tocome in and make this market
work.
So they didn't understand it,they didn't want to admit that.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
It's easier in a complex problem, whatever the
problem is infrastructure,housing, homelessness Pick the
big hairy ones that are justhard.
Housing, homelessness pick,pick the big hairy ones that are
just hard.
It's easy to have like a youknow the quick hey, just do this
, just do that, fix that.
It's this person's fault andit's never that easy.
There's no silver bullet.
There's no silver bullet andit's going to require a bunch of
stuff Can you get into cause?
(16:54):
One of the things I know you'reyou're very well versed in is
it's also having lots of housingoptions.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Correct, because talk a little bit about that.
So a couple of things Iadvocate.
I don't build affordablehousing, and I'll be the first
to say it Like nothing of thecaliber of home that we build is
affordable.
And yet I am out advocating onbehalf of affordable housing at
every level and I get reallyannoyed when I get labeled a
(17:21):
special interest in certainsettings because special
interest is getting somethingthat I benefit from.
I don't benefit from moreaffordable housing.
I testified in front of Congressand been grilled on that.
I've testified at the statelevel with the legislature on
this.
I also think we have to educatepeople that their first time
(17:44):
home you and I's first time homewas, you know, quarter acre lot
, white picket fence, a dog anda single family.
I think what we're trying totell people now and re-educate
people is that first time homemay be a condo, it may be a
townhome, it may be, you know, adifferent product.
We have to have a multitude ofproducts now because that
(18:05):
product that you and I had asthe first-time home doesn't
exist at the price point that wecan afford and let's talk about
.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
There's lots of factors that have made that true
Price of land has gone.
I mean through the roof is onething, supply chain chain I mean
those things never like theyloosened up, but the price never
go backwards, they never, nevergo back so people don't
understand like, yeah, there wasthe supply chain crunch, and
(18:33):
they're like, oh, is it better?
Speaker 2 (18:34):
yeah, it's better, but the pricing never changed,
right and an economist will tellyou you don't want it to go
down because that's deflationand that's a negative impact to
the economy.
So we all want gas to go down,we all want health care pricing
to go down, but we don't wantwhatever we do for a living to
go down, and so I think we haveto be a little careful.
(18:54):
The goal is to stay at aconstant growth and not like
we've had in the last.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
But when that supply chain thing happened, that did
happen and there was times whereyou couldn't get wire.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Throw a dart, you couldn't get switch dirt, throw
a dart and you'll hit it, nomatter what.
You couldn't get it.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
But it seems to be better now.
But pricing stayed there andthen you've got labor Correct
and you've got a retiringskilled labor.
Electricians, plumbers, hvacskilled tradesmen, of all trades
are retiring just because ofdemographics.
It has nothing to do with it'sjust pure demographics.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
They're aging out.
The hard part is so.
The Great Recession took a hugesegment of the working
population that was either closeto retirement that just said,
hey, this is dumb, why am Idoing this, I'm losing money,
I'm out.
It also took the bottom segment.
So I grew up framing houses inhigh school, all through college
(19:52):
.
It took away the segment thatwould have come into the market
at in high school or in collegeor at that age that there just
weren't the jobs.
And so now, all of a sudden,you've got two missing segments
of the labor market.
Now, fast forward 10 years, 20years.
All of a sudden we're startingto see that segment.
And for everybody that isretiring now, we don't you know,
(20:17):
let's say, for you know 20people that are retiring today
and I don't know the numbers offthe head we have like four
people replacing them I thinkthat's very similar to what I've
heard.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Yeah, so you see.
So so all those factors land,cost of building materials and
labor are are not.
That's not changing anytimesoon here.
So now you say, okay, well,what is the product type?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
it's going to need to be absolutely a very varying
type of product and, sadly, andthis is what most people don't
want to hear you need density.
Yes, to get there, have to, youhave to get density and and so
then let's talk about that.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
so, so multi-family.
I I do know like I've heardlike just wild swings in city
councils around the valley ofhey, we have enough.
And then you talk to someonelike clay anderson who's a
multifamily expert, he's likedude, that's not.
Yeah, we're about 10,000 unitsbehind in the valley.
So just multifamily.
So apartments, let's keep it,just apartments in the valley.
(21:12):
We're 10,000 behind and becauseof the interest rate spike that
just happened, everything froze.
So what happened is there waskind of a lot of apartments and
then you saw some concessions,you saw rents coming down and
now that's going back up, butthere have not been any new
starts because of just the waythey start and municipalities
(21:32):
talk the talk.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
So when I meet with the municipality, my question is
the heck with affordablehousing, the heck with
attainable housing?
Two different numbers, the heckwith.
Can your own employees affordto live in your city?
And the answer, most of thetime is no.
And so I bring that up becauseI think there's a negative
(21:56):
connotation with affordablehousing.
There's actually zero studies,zero studies that have shown
that when an affordable projectcomes in, that there's a
negative impact to a community.
There's a mental side of things.
So can we?
Speaker 1 (22:10):
talk a little bit more about that, because I think
this is one of the main reasonsI'm really excited to have you
on.
So you've got market rateapartments.
We're 10,000 short on.
Now.
Well, let's talk about thedifferent kinds of affordable
housing.
So there are just programs outthere which will allow some
subsidy correct to go into andand and one of the guys we got
(22:32):
him on here, but caleb rupe withpacific company is probably the
largest in the yeah yeah, likelargest in the united states of
america out of eagle, idaho.
Yeah, who's done a lot of thisstuff here?
But but those, you look at theprojects he's done here.
They're some of the nicestquality projects ever and no one
here is saying that thatdiminished the quality of the
neighborhood or anything.
It just gives options forpeople and it's using mostly tax
(22:54):
credits is what it is, andthese companies like Caleb's are
just experts at saying, hey,it's a community.
It's certainly like it's partof his DNA of saying hey.
I am doing this because one,it's good for people, it's good
for communities and it's a nichethat he's filled.
So you got those.
So you got this kind of housing, the apartments, and then let's
(23:18):
talk about you got condos.
There's a lot of challenge withcondos.
We're doing a big project rightnow downtown, so people don't
realize this.
They're like why don't we havemore condo options?
Well, what happened was therewas a lot of condos that were
built and then they foundattorneys found out.
Well, with a condo unit,there's just fraught with
(23:38):
potential problems becauseyou've got all these units that
people own next to other unitspeople own.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
So potential problems because you got all these units
that people own next to otherunits people own, so they
literally the legality of acondo.
It would blow your mind.
People don't understand thatand it's state by state and as a
contractor.
Yes, I just was with a tilecontractor out of oregon.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
He said we are in a lawsuit 24 7 on condo projects
and so there are law firms inthe country who, literally the
second you do a condo projectwill sue, you file.
Yeah, they'll file a lawsuiteven though you don't have
anything yet, because they knowthat they can go through this
and find their.
You know, there's something.
There's ambulance chasers andin medicine there are attorneys
(24:17):
that chase condo projects.
So it's why we don't have a lotof them.
We're doing doing one.
There's 69 units in downtownbuilding.
You get insurance for it.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
It's quadruple what insurance would be if it was
multifamily.
But you just raise the cost ofeverything.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
You raise the cost of everything for condos, but they
do provide, I think, our unitsin downtown.
It provides density.
You think about single familyhomes and what they cost in that
end of town, correct?
Speaker 2 (24:40):
I mean, you could never own a single family home
for that.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
And now, you're in a highly amenitized building in a
great neighborhood.
That's going to be.
It's still not affordable.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Correct.
I'm really careful when I saythat because I think that
affordable to you and I andsomebody else, it's all
different.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
I think what you could say is a segment of the
population will be able to buythem.
Correct, they're not affordable, but they're less money than a
single-family home, correct, sothat's, and they're in a part of
town that you couldn't getotherwise, and it's right.
Next, by the way, st Luke's isspending a billion dollars on
their expansion.
And you've got Now we're goingto talk about this later too
You've got infrastructure issues, correct, because now, if
(25:18):
you're living in Middleton towork at St Luke's downtown or
you're living in Cunigal, I mean, it provides some options for
and they've got a range ofemployees, all the way from
physicians, mid-levels nursestop to bottom and it provides
some housing options.
So then you go to townhomes.
I do think townhomes, orstarter homes, that's going to
(25:39):
be a segment of the market.
Now here's the interestingthing starter homes.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
That's going to be a segment of the market.
Now here's the interestingthing.
So I could do.
I did a project in downtownBoise that was townhomes and I
did the exact exact samebuilding in Meridian.
That was apartments.
And here's the difference thetownhomes have, and you know
this, but for anybody listening,a townhome has an individual
lot line.
Now if I go to a jurisdictionto do a, if I'm looking at path
(26:05):
of least resistance, if I'mlooking at the time value of
money, if I'm looking at theuncertainty with tariffs and
labor and all the priceincreases, I'm going to go the
path of least resistance, whichis apartments, which doesn't
allow for home ownership.
Because if I have to go into aproject and individually put a
lot line on that subdivide thatsame piece of property, that I
(26:26):
could just put the same building, same units.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
So it's a great example, where, where policy at
the city level will drivebehavior.
It's the barrier.
If they could make it, and thenthey would realize that that
same person could now be gettingequity in a hundred percent.
So so there needs to be, andinstead you get the opposite.
I think what's happened and Ilike.
I like our jurisdictions.
But if you go back toregulation 10, 20 years ago,
(26:52):
regulation now we're headed thewrong direction.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
And and and here's the funny thing I'm not that old
.
I mean, I've been doing this mywhole life, but I'm not 80
years old, I'm not 79 years oldand can talk about the good old
days.
I used to be able to walk in toBoise with a set of plans, sit
with a planner for an hour andwalk out with a permit Same date
.
I don't want to tell you howmuch time it takes.
(27:17):
Now let's talk about it.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
I think this is important because it is part of
the problem.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Absolutely so.
Now that same permit can taketwo to three months Minimum.
You add a layer of hillside orin an overlay district or
something, a historical district.
It's months and months ofuncertainty.
It's months and months ofuncertainty and the checklist to
(27:43):
get an approval now is so high,is so long, and all that gets
passed on.
It gets passed on and I've satin so many meetings where people
say it's only $200 or it's onlythis.
I'm like you're right, but I'vehad 100 meetings of it's only
$200.
And so and I get you knowgovernment says well, that's not
(28:06):
going to be the tipping point.
That's not going to well inthis Valley.
We've done a study for everythousand dollars you raise the
price of a house, 900 people canno longer afford it.
It doesn't mean there's 900buyers just sitting waiting to
buy.
It just means that, based onthe median income, that they can
no longer afford that home.
So that's $1,000.
Do you?
Speaker 1 (28:26):
think this is across the whole valley because that's
where we work.
But do you think that?
And I think that for the mostpart we have local governments
that are in tune with business.
But I would ask the nextquestion um, do you think they
realize how different it is andhow onerous it is?
(28:47):
And there's been some crazythings.
Building code keeps the otherthing, some of it's, out of
their control, so there'sseveral factors against us.
You have building codes,international building codes, so
these things change and thenthe cities, different cities,
adopt different, differentversions yeah, um, and when that
happens, crazy things happen.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
The hard part is that even when you come with a
common sense approach.
So I'm going to back up for aminute on just getting an
approval on an apartment or atownhome project.
I've brought up and it's not anew idea, it's not my idea, but
I brought up the fact that, hey,if I add an affordable
component to this project, putit at the top of the stack,
(29:27):
guarantee me approval in 90 daysand I'll do more of these.
The last project I did,downtown Boise, took me three
years for 30 units.
When I started the project itwas 44 units.
Got weeded down to 30 units,increased the amenities and then
at my final hearing, acouncilwoman asked me so how
(29:48):
many of these units are gonna beaffordable?
I said, well, it's three years.
Prices have done this, interestrates have done this, my
amenities went up, you reducedmy density.
You cost me over $5 million inthe project.
Zero units will be affordable.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
But does that connect ?
Do you think there's?
Speaker 2 (30:06):
That's where I say they walk the walk.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
I think they walk.
I wish that Because it's goingto be a problem.
One of the reasons that Ireally want to have you on is
you.
You, every single person I talkto now about almost anything.
Pick the issue it's housing.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
And the beauty is it's at the national level, it's
national state level, it's atthe local level, and the hotter
we get, the more micron doeswith all this.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
I mean this is this is not shutting off.
No matter what they say, that'snot shutting off and no matter
what they legislate at the localor state level.
People are coming here and it'sonly going to drive up prices.
What really needs to happen butI have no idea how you do this
is how do you go andconvincingly say let's have a
valley-wide kind of plan,because the hard part is it's at
(30:51):
the local level is where itstarts.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
There's only so much at the federal level.
And to your point on codes andsome of those things, we're
fighting that fight the locallevel is where most land use
decisions come from and that'swhere the layers get tacked on.
Right now, with the legislature, we're getting a working group
together, very political thoughIdaho the problem is I always
(31:16):
joke the problem with Idaho isit's very conservative.
The great problem with Idaho isit's very conservative.
The great thing with Idaho isit's very conservative.
And so, getting everybodytogether, having to your point a
valley-wide conversation,checking your ego at the door
and coming in with real-lifesolutions, our frustration, my
frustration, is I'm usuallypushed aside.
It's like wait a minute, youwant to talk housing?
(31:36):
I actually met with the whitehouse about a year ago and and
uh, they said hey, housing's anissue, we're bringing it up to
the state of the union.
Um, we, we, we want to addressthis, we want to get this taken
care of.
We, actually we, the experts,the white house think that in
order to get housing moreaffordable, we need to use more
union labor and be building moreenergy efficient homes.
(31:59):
I, my hand shot up, I, I, Icouldn't let that comment go and
I thought that's your, yoursolve to housing affordability.
Um, you, you pushed us asideand you got your experts
together and that's what youcame up with.
And that happens at all local,state, national.
Um, you're pushing the expertsaside, the free experts, the
(32:20):
guys that are willing to show upand give you free expert
analysis.
I build roads for a living.
I know how to get it moreaffordable.
I build projects.
I want better infrastructure.
No one wants crappy schools anda sewer or water plant that's
at capacity.
That doesn't bode well for aproject.
Invite the people that do thisall day, every day, into the
(32:43):
room.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
But there almost seems to be.
I don't think it's malintent, Ithink it's misunderstanding for
sure.
And then I think, when you'rein government, even if you came
from private sector, I thinkyou're hearing, you're in that
echo chamber 100, we're here tofix things.
We're here to fix things and Ithink, instead of well, in
(33:07):
medicine, it's do no harm, rightright one of the hypocritical
it's like right there yeah,first do no harm, because there
are things you can do that areactually worse than the thing.
And I think for government Iwish they had the same thing on
their wall.
It's like first do no harm, getoutside of your people and ask
people hey, what should we do?
(33:27):
Because we've got a problem?
We've got a problem and if youlook at listen, I mean we do
commercial, right, we do alittle bit of residential, but
it is getting hard.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
One example of that, tommy, is that we had the
legislature passed a bill 389, Ithink it was last year, year
before to limit how much localcities could collect through
taxes, property taxes.
What they did was theyartificially raised the cost of
of on all these small citiesit's for a big city like Boise,
(34:04):
meridian, that grows at a prettyconstant rate they weren't
hitting that cap.
But for star, for Middleton,for CUNA, these cities that are
seeing the rapid growth, andthey capped it.
So now, city of star, forinstance, I just pulled a permit
.
It was almost $20,000.
You think they did that rapidgrowth and they capped it.
So now, city of star, forinstance, I just pulled a permit
.
It was almost twenty thousanddollars.
You think they did that onpurpose?
Speaker 1 (34:21):
well, because here's the deal, like if you've got
constituents saying, hey, stopgrowth, stop growth.
I don't.
I don't know the answer to thisquestion, because one of the
ways you could stop growth, yeahthere's always an underlying
yeah if you make it so expensive, yeah if you truly screw it up
so bad that a building permitand star is twenty thousand
(34:42):
dollars and and it costs youknow our median prices for our
homes just keep going, and going, and going, like there is
probably a point.
What I don't understand aboutthat is these same people.
I can't believe they havefamilies here.
They're your neighbors, theseare local people.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
They're local people.
You're like trying to get younot want to have your kids live
here.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Do you want to not have?
Because the answer is alwaysgoing to be free market.
The answer is going to be weneed everything.
Right, we just went throughthem we need we need affordable
housing units, we needmulti-family, we need townhomes,
we need condos, we need singlefamily starter homes, we need
medium range homes.
We need the whole thing to makethis thing work and most of the
time, I feel like we're we'rebattling against a wave that
(35:25):
that people don't under, and Ithink we're, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
And here's the problem is that we don't have
like an organized first timehomeowners group, meaning that
when, um, once, you buy thehouse and you're in it, I don't
want to say you don't careanymore.
But you don't care anymore,You've made your purchase.
So there's not like a you knowtorches and pitchfork group out
there.
(35:47):
That's advocate, there are some, but there's not an organized
group.
Once I have my piece, I don'twant anybody else to have it.
That's actually a really goodpoint.
Group Once I have my piece, Idon't want anybody else to have
it.
That's actually a really goodpoint.
And so I think there's aconcession of how do we slow
growth down until it affects you?
But then once your kids havetheir house, then you don't care
anymore.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
It's a really good point.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
And if you have it, then you go to the, you go to
the meeting and say I don't wantany more and I've seen this at
so many city council meetingsthe things that if you're ever
really bored and you want towatch paint dry, go to a city
council meeting and watch thecomments.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Well, like our worst one was when we got our downtown
building approved.
Like the sheer hypocrisy, oh.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
I was shocked, like the sheer hypocrisy of the
testimony.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
And then the interesting thing, the first
time we went through it wasmultifamily of the testimony.
And then, the interesting thing, the first time we went through
it was multi-family okay.
And and we've got.
We went back and did deep diveson all the people that
testified yeah and like look,you know, they're all
millionaires living next door.
And their whole thing was hey,we don't want these apartment
people in our neighborhood.
Okay, so then we convert it tocondos, drop the number of units
(36:57):
.
Those same people come, comeback and say, no, we wanted a.
So it's all lies veiled in this.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Hey, I'm here, for I had a gal tell us and it was on
public testimony I should go getthe recording.
But she said I don't want ourkids playing with those kids.
And I was just floored and myplanner you know I'm like about
to blow up and she's like sitdown, sit down.
And I said I can't.
I said I have to address thatcomment and so I got up and it
(37:28):
wasn't meant to be rude, but Isaid the average price of these
projects will be way more than ahouse across your street.
So I'm sure they don't wanttheir kids playing with your
kids, but the point is, they'llsay anything they can.
Yeah, I couldn't even believethat that was a.
It was just hateful it was.
I get that you're worried aboutproperty value.
(37:49):
I get kind of the typicalconversations out there.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
But no one complains when their value goes up because
of the product product and theyare able to now sell their home
and make more money.
Before this has been great, butbut the other thing?
So you hear two things and andthey're in conflict with each
other you hear everybodylegislators, local people
talking about property taxes.
Everyone like, yeah, what arewe gonna do?
What are we gonna do?
And you have everyone talkabout affordability of housing.
Yet at the same time, you havemany of those same people
supporting and not standing upfor the restrictions, the
(38:26):
process, when it's so obviouslythe answer, and I think, when
you're in those electedpositions, maybe the heat I
don't know what like.
Is it the heat of the NIMBY-ism?
Is it the?
I mean why?
I don't think that they under.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
I mean it seems clear To you and I, because we deal
with it all day.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
But politically, what I'm trying to say is
politically, though, couldn'tyou say, if you were the mayor
hey, I'm doing this because I'mtrying to bring property taxes
down, and I'm doing this becauseI'm trying to make it
affordable for your kids andtheir kids to be here.
That seems super compelling.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
You have two arguing comments or conversations here.
You have price of homes and youhave property taxes and you're
trying to balance the two right.
And then you throw in the thirdof growth and everybody's
complaining about growth.
And really in Idaho thecomplaints growth.
And and everybody's complainingabout growth, um, and really in
idaho the complaints trafficand schools.
No one complains about thisbuilding, the services, the
(39:24):
extra costco that comes in thecosta vida, that no one
complains about.
No one.
Yeah, I'm but but the point isfewer people?
yeah, but the point is it usedto take me five minutes to get
there, now it takes me six andI've lost it right.
Or the school problem, which isa state problem, not a local.
It ends up being a localproblem, but it's a you know.
(39:48):
So there's a lot to unpackthere.
So are you trying to slowgrowth down by making it more
expensive?
But then, by making it moreexpensive, you get higher
property taxes and no one canafford to live in your city.
I mean it's, it's the pendulumswings, and so what's the
priority?
Is it?
Is it affordability?
Speaker 1 (40:04):
or is it anti-growth?
The last thing I want, I think,really cause I know you think
this way, um, so I know you dopolling and I know you do
research, cause I think, withyour national organizations, I
mean, instead of letting likesubjective feelings of, well,
this is what I feel, this iswhat I do, it it would be so
good to objectively look at alot of things like like how
(40:28):
short are we and where are weshort?
Speaker 2 (40:31):
and this idea of infill, right yeah I laugh.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
I laugh so hard sometimes because I will be
talking to really good people inBoise about some projects just
on the periphery of Boise andthey're like we hate sprawl and
I'm like, hey, I know youprobably don't go past 16th
Street ever, Right, right.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
We all love the Nubbubble.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
I know there's this thing past 16th Street that's
called Meridian and Nampa andCaldwell.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
No, that's Eastern Ontario, it is.
But that sprawl, yeah yeah, andyet the infill is so hard.
Oh, it's just brutal.
The project that took me threeyears.
It was on two acres, Vista andOverland Like the prime on
thebench great spot Utilitiesthere infrastructure there,
(41:21):
community center, bus stops,like all the things.
And yet in three years I couldhave done 20 projects in
Meridian at 100 acres.
But why don't they listen?
We've even provided the stats.
So to your point, not just thefields.
We've even provided the stats.
So to your point, not just thefields that you know.
(41:42):
We said, hey, what is the trueimpact of housing from a cost
perspective, from a communityperspective?
What does it contribute to theeconomy, not only in the first
year it's built, but then whenyou have a family living in it,
the ripple effect how manypeople are working in you know
for that home or on that home,and the ripple effect is
gigantic.
I'll get you in, you know forthat home or on that home, and
the ripple effect is gigantic.
I'll get you a copy of thatstudy.
We do it, we did.
(42:02):
We actually did it, um, in like2006 or seven when things were
gangbusters, and we did it inthe recession to show the
contrast when there was, whenthere was crazy growth and no
growth, um, and then I think weupdated that in 16 or 18.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
I'm going to switch just because I can't believe
we've been going at this forlong we have.
Can you talk a little bit on?
On the tariffs a little bit,although I think that changes
day to day because I don't knowhow much of it is going to
impact or not, and then, andthen, kind of what if I, if I
made you predict, kind of which,Steve?
Speaker 2 (42:40):
just to let you know it's impossible.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
What are you thinking with interest rates,
specifically on housing tariffs,how they're going to affect
pricing workforce?
I mean, there's just so manydifferent things.
But what does 2025 look like?
The rest of this year and goinginto 26 for your predictions?
Speaker 2 (42:55):
So the tariff discussion is one that I
actually think has zero to dowith tariffs Zero.
I think it's a tool.
It's a negotiating tool thatyou and I are getting caught in
the middle of right, and I thinkit is to your point.
It changes daily.
I was just on a call a fewminutes ago I can't remember
Liberation Day or something thatyou know when we came out and
(43:18):
liberated everybody from theirequity in the market is what I
call it.
But when they announced all thetariffs, they actually came out
a few days later and excludedCanada and Mexico on a few
things, and that's where amajority of the things that we
use in building come from.
If we are bringing it from outof the country, china is mostly
(43:39):
components, but um, lumber isthe one that is kind of the
poster child for when you wantto talk tariffs, the tariff
discussion.
Though, even though some ofthose things are excluded in my
business, your business, we haveto plan for them.
No matter what business doesn'tdo well with uncertainty.
I can't get into a contractwith a client um at price X when
(43:59):
I when it could be price Y orprice Z or wherever Um, and so I
have to plan for those.
So I build it into my pricing,which we all then pay for Um and
and a good example.
So in it, when COVID was goingyou know it was hot off the
press and going crazy for apiece, a four by eight sheet of
(44:19):
plywood it's OSB, but four byeight sheet of plywood that we
use on the entire house we werepaying about seven dollars a
sheet right before COVID hit.
When COVID hit we were paying80 to 90 dollars for that same
sheet.
I remember those days I didn'tknow it was that bad for that
same sheet.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
I remember those days .
Speaker 2 (44:37):
I had one house that we were building that I had to
go to the client and say you oweus an extra $250,000 for lumber
, not for a pool, not for a coolcountertop or any upgrade for
the same thing.
No one's going to walk intoyour house and notice any
difference, and so my fear withthe tariff thing is that we
(44:58):
can't get caught.
You know we got caughtflat-footed with covid.
We can't get caught.
So I have to build that intothe model my things are gonna,
even with the threat even withjust uncertainty it's going to
cost more, so everything withsuppliers.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Everything I'm bidding out right now it's just
going to be more, whether or notthey are whether it hits or not
they're building it into all ofall our subs correct.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
So there's affordability and and we really
push that with this white housethat you made housing a priority
and you've brought it upseveral times.
But this goes in the face ofthat and and I think that's the
canada, mexico thing why it wasexcluded.
But my suppliers are alreadyplanning for it, so they've
already adjusted their pricing,they built it into the pricing
(45:37):
model, whether it happens or not.
So that's the tariff component.
Then you have the immigrationcomponent and this one's really
frustrating and it's near anddear to my heart because I see
it every single day with my subs, my suppliers, with the
workforce that we have in inthis valley that is highly
reliant on that.
About 30% of the labor inconstruction is non-born
(46:04):
workforce in this country.
My frustration with this isthat it's a problem that the
federal government created andnow we're vilifying an entire
group.
I always say there's 1% ofanything that's bad, 1% of
doctors, 1% of builders, 1% ofimmigrants, 1% of throw a dart
and we're using that as thereason to go after an entire
(46:28):
group of people and it's reallyfrustrating.
We've made this group out to bethe boogeyman on something that
they're not.
I have guys coming to me saying,hey, I won't even send my
people to this jurisdiction orthis jurisdiction because
there's the threat of beingpicked up.
Now talk about labor shortage.
We already have a laborshortage.
(46:48):
We don't have people cominginto the trades and now we're
restricting the labor in certainmarkets.
We also always kind of point tolike the bottom of the barrel
oh, that's the cheap labor andthey're taking people's jobs.
It's not true.
I have guys that I know thatare their companies making six
to $10 million a year hereillegally working with an
(47:11):
immigration attorney.
But job creators making greatmoney, paying taxes, paying into
a system they will never get abenefit from not complaining
here for quality of life,building a family, sending their
kids to college.
So I think there's this posterchild of what immigrant labor
looks like.
And it's not just thedairymen's, it's not just ag,
(47:34):
it's not just the wine growersor restaurant and hotel business
, it's not just construction,it's business owners it's
families and again drives upcosts drives up costs rates.
So rates is an interesting one.
Um, I had the opportunity tomeet with chair pal last year
and it was just me and about 10other guys and we met with five
(47:55):
of the board of governors alongwith him and we had this
conversation and, uh, reallyinteresting meeting.
They were looking at a lot ofdifferent.
You know shelter inflation, notjust inflation.
You know that that inflationtarget is trying to get around
two to three percent.
Oddly enough, if you takeshelter inflation out of that
and this is getting into theweeds a little bit but we're're
(48:18):
at the 2% to 3%.
The only way in my mind and I'mnot an economist and definitely
not the Fed, but the only wayin my mind to get shelter
inflation down is to add moreunits.
The only way to add more unitsis to lower rates.
Initially, when you lower rates,there's going to be more
activity and it's going to raiseprices.
But I see in the long termthere's the spike right the
(48:45):
curve, and then I think itlevels back out.
When rates come down, you willsee a flood of homes coming back
on the market.
You're stuck with a 3% interestrate not stuck, but you've got
a 3% interest rate.
No way you're selling yourhouse, but you start getting
rates and I don't think we'llever see that again.
But you start getting rates andI don't think we'll ever see
that again.
But you start getting rates inthe fives and high fours and all
of a sudden, yeah, it'll moveagain.
Okay well, maybe I will sell myhouse because I've been wanting
(49:05):
to.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
So you're thinking that there's a lot of pressure
to get this down.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
There is, and I think that's the tariff thing, I
think that's the.
I mean, I think all of thesethings Trump's no dummy.
Well, we're renegotiating, Ithink, $9 trillion of US debt at
the same time, right CorrectPlus we have a tax cliff coming
up that I don't think anybody'swilling to talk about, but
(49:29):
that's a $4 to $6 trillion cliff.
We're coming up just to extend,not increase, any tax savings
but to extend the Trump tax cuts.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
Oh, Steve, we need to have you back again.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
This went by so fast.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
Hey, before we kind of, what's your website so I can
send people?
Speaker 2 (49:49):
your way.
So it's TradeWinsOfIdahocom.
We didn't really talk aboutyour core business,
tradewinsofidahocom.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
Steve builds unbelievable homes here.
Thank you, some of the mostamazing homes that you'll see in
Idaho, and you've done it for20?
.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
So I 06, so 22 or 18 years yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
As the owner of Tradewinds.
Well, hey, thank you for yourleadership in Idaho.
You're involved in so manythings and this has been great.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
I appreciate it.
It's a great, great topic andso timely for what we need to be
thinking about and looking atfor the Valley.
So thanks for coming on,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
Appreciate it, thanks everybody.
Today on the Ever Onward podcast we have Steve
Martinez.
He's the president and owner ofTradewinds.
It's a very great home builderhere in Idaho.
He's been in the constructionindustry for 27 years, 24 of
those as owner of Tradewinds.
Steve is also very involved inall things leadership here in
the Valley along housing.
He has just finished as thechairman of the Federal
(00:23):
Government Affairs Committee forthe National Home Builders
Association.
He spends a lot of time inWashington DC and in the
statehouse affecting all thingsthat are legislative around
housing and home building inIdaho.
It's going to be great to getcaught up with him on all things
housing in the Treasure Valley.
Steve man, this is great.
(00:51):
Hey, we're trying to catch uphere.
I know I've known you forever.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
We haven't seen each other for a long time.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Well, we've been wanting to have you on for a
while.
You've been in the buildingindustry a long time.
I kind of was born into it.
I didn't have a choice.
Let's start there.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, how's your dad?
He's doing awesome.
You know, it's kind of funny.
I bought him out in 06 and hewas retired for about 30 seconds
and then he came back to workand, uh, you know, he would go
long enough to where I'd get acall from my mom.
She'd say, hey, you got to sendhim home.
You're just working him todeath, all right.
So I'd send him home.
(01:27):
That guy's built one way,though.
Pretty soon she'd call andshe'd say you got to get him out
of the house, he's driving menuts.
Put him on a job site.
And so it really was.
He turned 79 this year.
Is he 79?
There's no way, yeah.
And it really was about lastyear where he said all right, I
need to get off the job.
He's 79.
He does not look 79.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
No, and doesn't act 79.
Yeah, doesn't act 79.
I mean, I don't know why I justdidn't.
I did not expect that.
I expected like 70.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Yeah, no, yeah, I mean he still goes a hundred
miles an hour.
How's your mom?
She's doing awesome.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
They're doing great.
Well, you've had.
So talk a little.
I do want to get into someother stuff, because I wanted to
talk industry the housingindustry the valley, all that
stuff.
But I do just background.
Pretty cool to grow up with himand you getting right into it
and then kind of buying him outearly.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
I mean you've owned the company now for I was 26
when I bought him out, 26 whenyou bought him out I mean,
you've owned the company now forI was 26 when I bought it, 26
when you bought it I don't knowhow many people especially in
today's day and age of justlooking at the youth and where
they're at and that waspre-Great Recession, absolutely
so, you know, at 27, that was2006.
So 2007, I was like man, I amking of the world, I'm going to
do this five more years and I'mdone.
(02:40):
And then I got years and I'mdone.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
And then, uh, I got my master's in building
essentially in 2008, because itwas four years of just grind.
Is it for, like, steve, you'reyoung, but like for guys that,
uh, there's a lot of people thatdon't remember it right or
don't talk about it, and for alot of us that were went through
it, it, it, it just feels likeit wasn't that long ago in a lot
of ways, and it feels like itdidn't even happen in some ways.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
It's interesting Just this year my PTSD of 08 is
slowly going away.
And it's interesting because Iremember I think it was in 08 or
09, my dad said this is thebest thing that could have
happened to you.
And when you're going throughit, all you want to do is slap
the person that says that.
And yet you know he started thecompany in 1980.
(03:25):
So probably the second worsttime to be in business.
You know interest rates werecrazy.
I mean I remember we weretaking trades for work.
I mean he would come home witha motorcycle or a piano or you
know a clock.
I mean just he would bringstuff home and my mom would just
shake her head like what are wedoing?
And and that's just, you justtraded for work then.
(03:47):
So, um, looking back, itabsolutely was the best thing
that could have happened to meat a young age, because I saw so
many guys you tend toretirement, tend to plan.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Once you go through it and I've tried to explain
this it so bad and there werereally just you'd like I don't,
I don't know the way out of thisthing.
So much of it was not in yourcontrol, everything.
And then you kind of figure outa pathway and you find your way
through it.
You're like I don't ever wantthat to happen again.
So what do you find yourselfdoing?
At least me everything we do islike okay, what's the worst
(04:20):
thing that can happen?
And sometimes drives peoplecrazy.
You're like well, that's notgonna happen.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Yeah, you're like, yeah, no, the wave eventually
crashes, and that was one thing.
Um, and, and what's sad is it'skept me from a lot of
opportunity, but it's also keptmy neck off the chopping block.
Yeah, when there's beencorrections, and you know it, I
always say that that was kind ofa once-in-a-lif lifetime event.
And yet covid, yeah, then wasanother once in a lifetime event
(04:46):
and so these once in a lifetimeevents I'm kind of getting over
like um, but I feel like I'verun my business, like 2008 is
around the corner, um but, andit's it's kept me so let's,
let's talk.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Uh well, I'm gonna jump a lot, a little bit all
over here, but before we leaveyour dad, because I do want to
get into, like, all thequestions, because because it
will be good for peoplelistening to get the Steve
Martinez experience of housingand where we're at and where
we're headed and all thosethings.
I think that's tremendouslyvaluable.
But before we leave your dad,incredible guy.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
I will tell you this Having him at the helm, whether
it's in business um, in mypersonal life, I mean, that's
really what has saved me.
In business um, he was reigningme in in 06 and 07, you know,
when I wanted to conquer theworld, yeah, saying, you know,
ease up, this doesn't lastforever.
You gotta, you know, take it instride, um.
(05:42):
And then in 08, when it was the, you know, the darkest hour in
09 and 10, 11, 12, he was rightthere alongside of me, coaching
me through all that um, and Ithink that's in life, having a
coach, um, having somebody onyou know, next to you.
There was a lot of people thatdidn't have that and, uh, you
know, struggled alone.
And not to, you know, make myexperience any better or any
(06:04):
worse, but having him attachedat the hip couldn't have been a
better situation.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
What are some of the qualities that make him he's a
unique guy?
What are some of the qualitiesthat you admire in Ted?
Speaker 2 (06:17):
It's funny.
He said never take a risk withyour reputation.
That is something that's alwaysstuck with me.
This town is so small and hewas born and raised here.
He came from very, very humblebeginnings.
You know my grandma worked thefields, as you know, from all
across the country, fromMichigan all the way to
(06:38):
California.
You know, depending on what wasin season, the home that he
grew up in, the home that wegrew up in, I mean just very
humble beginnings and I thinkthat's always stuck with him.
He's never gotten too big forhis britches.
You know he's always helpingpeople To a fault where, as kids
, we were always annoyed likedad quit doing that.
(07:01):
You know enough.
Or you know this person'sdriving us nuts.
Why do you keep giving them achance?
You know he's probably startedmore businesses in this valley
for people getting them on theirfeet.
You know when guys go out ontheir own and teaching them how
to run business and you knowthey may be a great framer but a
terrible business person and sohe's helped get them through
that.
So he's always, you know,quietly been helping people and
(07:25):
I love it.
It's something that, growing upthat way as a kid, you don't
appreciate it until you get to apoint and you see how many
people he's helped throughoutthe process.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Thanks for sharing that.
I think, doing this as long aswe have now, I love hearing a
little bit what's behindsuccessful people, yeah, and
usually there's someone that'ssuper influential that has said
hey, and when it's your father?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
it's even better, right?
Well, and you and I have seenthere are a lot of successful
people in this valley and thereare people you want to be like
and there are definitely peopleyou don't, yeah, and everywhere
in between, and so that's, Ithink, the clientele that I work
with.
I get to see all types and Iget to see the, the qualities of
people that that you want toemulate, and I think that's
that's my dad to a tee, yeahwell, I wanted to hit that for
(08:12):
sure with you today because he'smade an impact on me, he's been
a, he's been a great exampleand and and for you a legacy.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
yeah, absolutely.
So let's get, let's get into it.
So then we get through thevalley here, if you go back to
because I like, to me it's kindof this really important kind of
date for me, like it happenedand then you get to 12, and it's
a little better Starting tocrawl out.
Starting to crawl out.
(08:40):
Never really easy, though, fora while, because it took a while
out.
Never really easy, though, fora while, because it took a while
.
And then it seems like um, youknow, then then the coasts are
going nuts, yeah, like justgoing nuts.
They've lost their minds.
Well, I call I I joke.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
I say the cows are coming home.
So california, oregon andwashington, the cows are coming
home.
And that really was, and we'vealways had that migration.
So it wasn't.
This isn't a new thing, butit's almost like someone poured
gas on the fire and it justexploded and it went from.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Idaho Boise.
To everywhere you went Like, oh, that's the place right.
And then let's talk about why.
Because I think for people,they want to shut it off now,
which is an interesting concept.
But if you look at why peopleare attracted to here, it's why
we're attracted to here.
It's an incredible place toraise your family.
You look at the beauty, youlook at the spring day we're in
(09:34):
today.
Absolutely there's just nothing.
The outdoors things and howclean and safe, and the politics
.
Quality of life, the quality oflife, it really.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
is it the politics, the?
Speaker 1 (09:43):
quality of life.
I mean, it's just somethingwith schools.
Yeah, you start going down thelist.
It's a great place to come um,that that was discovered.
I, I had to, for I, I I lookedup something for for someone the
other day and I just looked athome values of of homes and I
was shocked like just blown away.
Yeah, what happened and it wasso it's probably like it was
(10:03):
probably 13, 14, 15 away.
Yeah, what happened and it wasso it's probably like it was
probably 13, 14 15, it still wasprobably okay and then it just
took off.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
It did and and part of that it was supply and demand
we were, we got caughtflat-footed.
Um, and I know that that theanswer always seems build more,
build more.
But when you have a largeamount of people coming into an
area and I saw it actually inthe recession in North Dakota
when the oil got discovered notdiscovered, but when fracking
(10:32):
became a big deal and everybodyand their dog came into North
Dakota, it just pushed all thelocal people out and it pushed
pricing so high rent, so highcost of living.
And I kind of joke, because I'musually one of the first
contacts of people coming intothe state and they get here and
they say, well, this isn't anycheaper than where I came from.
Like, I thought I was getting adeal.
(10:53):
And I have to explain to themthat if you're coming here for
the deal, that's probably notnow, but there's 10,000 other
reasons why you should be coming.
And, um, I also have to kind ofmellow people out where, um,
they come in and they're, youknow, coming for, let's say,
political reasons and we'regoing to save, you know, the
state from itself.
(11:14):
And I say, well, relax, youknow, and we're actually pretty
middle of the road in idaho andand uh, it's interesting, I had
a client one time that, uh, youknow, sent me their ballot,
their sample ballot, and markedwho they thought that we would
love to vote for.
And I said, oh, we're in theweeds here.
And they said what?
No, we're saving you, we'rehelping.
(11:35):
And I kind of explained it andshe said well, you understand,
coming from where we're comingfrom, you have to be goofy left
or goofy right to hopefully endup in the middle.
And I said Idaho's about asmiddle as it comes.
I said we tend to ebb and flowon that line and so you don't
have to get goofy right to savethe state from itself.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Yeah, you don't, and let's talk a little bit about
that.
You've become prettypolitically involved, I mean
nationally.
You've been part of thenational organizations.
You've been one of the leadersof the home building industry
here in the state.
So I do want to dive a littledeeper on that, because it's
been an interesting.
It sounds too easy to be supplyand demand, but we did get
(12:23):
caught flat footed, we reallydid.
And then I would love to hearyour perspective on okay, now
jump forward another 10 yearsfrom that.
We have COVID in the middle ofthat Right, which I think if
COVID didn't happen or didhappen, it was another wave of
people that came in Because nowyou had COVID, I can live
(12:43):
anywhere.
Well, I'm reacting to COVID.
So one issue.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
And so they said we got to get out of here no matter
what.
And so I think it brought in awave of a different mentality to
the state.
We've had it so good for solong in Idaho that politically
we've been on autopilot.
Our candidates, our electedofficials, haven't been goofy.
I mean, we've probably alwayshad goofy, but they haven't been
(13:30):
far right far left just middleof the road.
Common sense, business friendly, just business friendly,
capitalism.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, they realize small business friendly, small
business friendly, and I thinkthere's a difference there.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
And so we've had it too good too long.
Realize small business,friendly small business yes, I
think there's a difference there.
Um, and so we've had it toogood too long.
And what I realized a few yearsback was that pretty soon we
were getting hijacked at everylevel and I don't care, you know
.
For a while it was like, well,we're gonna just go after you
know things that really affectus.
And now it was like we got tobe looking at school boards and
we got to be looking I mean hoa,president's joking but like we
(14:02):
got to look at across thespectrum because it really is.
There's an anti-growthsentiment, there's uh, I mean,
I'm surprised when I go to acity council meeting at how many
people willingly say well, whenI moved here last month, this
isn't what I moved here for andwe need to stop the growth.
And it's like you can't stopthe growth and if you stop the
(14:24):
growth, all you do is raise theprice.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
So let's, I want you to help me explain this.
Because if you, if you spendtime around the country and you
look at communities that havekind of wrecked themselves, it
is regulation that wrecksthemselves Right 100% and that
comes in weird ways because youhave the kind of nimbyism that
(14:47):
causes regulation.
You have whatever reasonoverreach from government
causing regulation.
There's a lot of ways.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Regulation comes, in different forms, right.
It's death by a thousand cuts.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Yes, so you have all these different things, trying
to say I don't like this, Idon't like this, I don't like
that.
And pretty soon you've narroweddown the free market system
that provides options for people, which I wish people could
understand.
That just drives up costs.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
I I had this discussion with an elected
official that was really goingaround the the county and and
actually other counties to tryto stop growth.
And I met with this person.
I said, hey, let's be part ofthe solution Instead of just no,
close the border, lock the door.
Let's figure out a way to makethis work and take all the
(15:34):
credit, bring everybody together.
It's not about that, but let'sfind a way to find a path
forward.
And they said well, the problemis, all my constituents are
coming to me and they'recomplaining about property taxes
and their values are going upand their values are going up
and we've got to slow this down.
I said, okay, I get thatcomponent.
But I said it's econ 101.
(15:54):
It's not my major, so I'm noteven going to pretend that I'm
an econ major.
But I said econ 101 says thatwe restrict the supply but we
still have the demand.
I said if they're mad this year?
I said if you stop all buildingwhich they wouldn't, but if you
stopped all building, where doyou think prices are going to be
in a year from now With thesame amount of people coming in
(16:17):
now?
No local people will be able tobuy and we will be 100 percent
reliant on out ofstate people tocome in and make this market
work.
So they didn't understand it,they didn't want to admit that.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
It's easier in a complex problem, whatever the
problem is infrastructure,housing, homelessness Pick the
big hairy ones that are justhard.
Housing, homelessness pick,pick the big hairy ones that are
just hard.
It's easy to have like a youknow the quick hey, just do this
, just do that, fix that.
It's this person's fault andit's never that easy.
There's no silver bullet.
There's no silver bullet andit's going to require a bunch of
stuff Can you get into cause?
(16:54):
One of the things I know you'reyou're very well versed in is
it's also having lots of housingoptions.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Correct, because talk a little bit about that.
So a couple of things Iadvocate.
I don't build affordablehousing, and I'll be the first
to say it Like nothing of thecaliber of home that we build is
affordable.
And yet I am out advocating onbehalf of affordable housing at
every level and I get reallyannoyed when I get labeled a
(17:21):
special interest in certainsettings because special
interest is getting somethingthat I benefit from.
I don't benefit from moreaffordable housing.
I testified in front of Congressand been grilled on that.
I've testified at the statelevel with the legislature on
this.
I also think we have to educatepeople that their first time
(17:44):
home you and I's first time homewas, you know, quarter acre lot
, white picket fence, a dog anda single family.
I think what we're trying totell people now and re-educate
people is that first time homemay be a condo, it may be a
townhome, it may be, you know, adifferent product.
We have to have a multitude ofproducts now because that
(18:05):
product that you and I had asthe first-time home doesn't
exist at the price point that wecan afford and let's talk about
.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
There's lots of factors that have made that true
Price of land has gone.
I mean through the roof is onething, supply chain chain I mean
those things never like theyloosened up, but the price never
go backwards, they never, nevergo back so people don't
understand like, yeah, there wasthe supply chain crunch, and
(18:33):
they're like, oh, is it better?
Speaker 2 (18:34):
yeah, it's better, but the pricing never changed,
right and an economist will tellyou you don't want it to go
down because that's deflationand that's a negative impact to
the economy.
So we all want gas to go down,we all want health care pricing
to go down, but we don't wantwhatever we do for a living to
go down, and so I think we haveto be a little careful.
(18:54):
The goal is to stay at aconstant growth and not like
we've had in the last.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
But when that supply chain thing happened, that did
happen and there was times whereyou couldn't get wire.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Throw a dart, you couldn't get switch dirt, throw
a dart and you'll hit it, nomatter what.
You couldn't get it.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
But it seems to be better now.
But pricing stayed there andthen you've got labor Correct
and you've got a retiringskilled labor.
Electricians, plumbers, hvacskilled tradesmen, of all trades
are retiring just because ofdemographics.
It has nothing to do with it'sjust pure demographics.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
They're aging out.
The hard part is so.
The Great Recession took a hugesegment of the working
population that was either closeto retirement that just said,
hey, this is dumb, why am Idoing this, I'm losing money,
I'm out.
It also took the bottom segment.
So I grew up framing houses inhigh school, all through college
(19:52):
.
It took away the segment thatwould have come into the market
at in high school or in collegeor at that age that there just
weren't the jobs.
And so now, all of a sudden,you've got two missing segments
of the labor market.
Now, fast forward 10 years, 20years.
All of a sudden we're startingto see that segment.
And for everybody that isretiring now, we don't you know,
(20:17):
let's say, for you know 20people that are retiring today
and I don't know the numbers offthe head we have like four
people replacing them I thinkthat's very similar to what I've
heard.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Yeah, so you see.
So so all those factors land,cost of building materials and
labor are are not.
That's not changing anytimesoon here.
So now you say, okay, well,what is the product type?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
it's going to need to be absolutely a very varying
type of product and, sadly, andthis is what most people don't
want to hear you need density.
Yes, to get there, have to, youhave to get density and and so
then let's talk about that.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
so, so multi-family.
I I do know like I've heardlike just wild swings in city
councils around the valley ofhey, we have enough.
And then you talk to someonelike clay anderson who's a
multifamily expert, he's likedude, that's not.
Yeah, we're about 10,000 unitsbehind in the valley.
So just multifamily.
So apartments, let's keep it,just apartments in the valley.
(21:12):
We're 10,000 behind and becauseof the interest rate spike that
just happened, everything froze.
So what happened is there waskind of a lot of apartments and
then you saw some concessions,you saw rents coming down and
now that's going back up, butthere have not been any new
starts because of just the waythey start and municipalities
(21:32):
talk the talk.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
So when I meet with the municipality, my question is
the heck with affordablehousing, the heck with
attainable housing?
Two different numbers, the heckwith.
Can your own employees affordto live in your city?
And the answer, most of thetime is no.
And so I bring that up becauseI think there's a negative
(21:56):
connotation with affordablehousing.
There's actually zero studies,zero studies that have shown
that when an affordable projectcomes in, that there's a
negative impact to a community.
There's a mental side of things.
So can we?
Speaker 1 (22:10):
talk a little bit more about that, because I think
this is one of the main reasonsI'm really excited to have you
on.
So you've got market rateapartments.
We're 10,000 short on.
Now.
Well, let's talk about thedifferent kinds of affordable
housing.
So there are just programs outthere which will allow some
subsidy correct to go into andand and one of the guys we got
(22:32):
him on here, but caleb rupe withpacific company is probably the
largest in the yeah yeah, likelargest in the united states of
america out of eagle, idaho.
Yeah, who's done a lot of thisstuff here?
But but those, you look at theprojects he's done here.
They're some of the nicestquality projects ever and no one
here is saying that thatdiminished the quality of the
neighborhood or anything.
It just gives options forpeople and it's using mostly tax
(22:54):
credits is what it is, andthese companies like Caleb's are
just experts at saying, hey,it's a community.
It's certainly like it's partof his DNA of saying hey.
I am doing this because one,it's good for people, it's good
for communities and it's a nichethat he's filled.
So you got those.
So you got this kind of housing, the apartments, and then let's
(23:18):
talk about you got condos.
There's a lot of challenge withcondos.
We're doing a big project rightnow downtown, so people don't
realize this.
They're like why don't we havemore condo options?
Well, what happened was therewas a lot of condos that were
built and then they foundattorneys found out.
Well, with a condo unit,there's just fraught with
(23:38):
potential problems becauseyou've got all these units that
people own next to other unitspeople own.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
So potential problems because you got all these units
that people own next to otherunits people own, so they
literally the legality of acondo.
It would blow your mind.
People don't understand thatand it's state by state and as a
contractor.
Yes, I just was with a tilecontractor out of oregon.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
He said we are in a lawsuit 24 7 on condo projects
and so there are law firms inthe country who, literally the
second you do a condo projectwill sue, you file.
Yeah, they'll file a lawsuiteven though you don't have
anything yet, because they knowthat they can go through this
and find their.
You know, there's something.
There's ambulance chasers andin medicine there are attorneys
(24:17):
that chase condo projects.
So it's why we don't have a lotof them.
We're doing doing one.
There's 69 units in downtownbuilding.
You get insurance for it.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
It's quadruple what insurance would be if it was
multifamily.
But you just raise the cost ofeverything.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
You raise the cost of everything for condos, but they
do provide, I think, our unitsin downtown.
It provides density.
You think about single familyhomes and what they cost in that
end of town, correct?
Speaker 2 (24:40):
I mean, you could never own a single family home
for that.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
And now, you're in a highly amenitized building in a
great neighborhood.
That's going to be.
It's still not affordable.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Correct.
I'm really careful when I saythat because I think that
affordable to you and I andsomebody else, it's all
different.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
I think what you could say is a segment of the
population will be able to buythem.
Correct, they're not affordable, but they're less money than a
single-family home, correct, sothat's, and they're in a part of
town that you couldn't getotherwise, and it's right.
Next, by the way, st Luke's isspending a billion dollars on
their expansion.
And you've got Now we're goingto talk about this later too
You've got infrastructure issues, correct, because now, if
(25:18):
you're living in Middleton towork at St Luke's downtown or
you're living in Cunigal, I mean, it provides some options for
and they've got a range ofemployees, all the way from
physicians, mid-levels nursestop to bottom and it provides
some housing options.
So then you go to townhomes.
I do think townhomes, orstarter homes, that's going to
(25:39):
be a segment of the market.
Now here's the interestingthing starter homes.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
That's going to be a segment of the market.
Now here's the interestingthing.
So I could do.
I did a project in downtownBoise that was townhomes and I
did the exact exact samebuilding in Meridian.
That was apartments.
And here's the difference thetownhomes have, and you know
this, but for anybody listening,a townhome has an individual
lot line.
Now if I go to a jurisdictionto do a, if I'm looking at path
(26:05):
of least resistance, if I'mlooking at the time value of
money, if I'm looking at theuncertainty with tariffs and
labor and all the priceincreases, I'm going to go the
path of least resistance, whichis apartments, which doesn't
allow for home ownership.
Because if I have to go into aproject and individually put a
lot line on that subdivide thatsame piece of property, that I
(26:26):
could just put the same building, same units.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
So it's a great example, where, where policy at
the city level will drivebehavior.
It's the barrier.
If they could make it, and thenthey would realize that that
same person could now be gettingequity in a hundred percent.
So so there needs to be, andinstead you get the opposite.
I think what's happened and Ilike.
I like our jurisdictions.
But if you go back toregulation 10, 20 years ago,
(26:52):
regulation now we're headed thewrong direction.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
And and and here's the funny thing I'm not that old
.
I mean, I've been doing this mywhole life, but I'm not 80
years old, I'm not 79 years oldand can talk about the good old
days.
I used to be able to walk in toBoise with a set of plans, sit
with a planner for an hour andwalk out with a permit Same date
.
I don't want to tell you howmuch time it takes.
(27:17):
Now let's talk about it.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
I think this is important because it is part of
the problem.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Absolutely so.
Now that same permit can taketwo to three months Minimum.
You add a layer of hillside orin an overlay district or
something, a historical district.
It's months and months ofuncertainty.
It's months and months ofuncertainty and the checklist to
(27:43):
get an approval now is so high,is so long, and all that gets
passed on.
It gets passed on and I've satin so many meetings where people
say it's only $200 or it's onlythis.
I'm like you're right, but I'vehad 100 meetings of it's only
$200.
And so and I get you knowgovernment says well, that's not
(28:06):
going to be the tipping point.
That's not going to well inthis Valley.
We've done a study for everythousand dollars you raise the
price of a house, 900 people canno longer afford it.
It doesn't mean there's 900buyers just sitting waiting to
buy.
It just means that, based onthe median income, that they can
no longer afford that home.
So that's $1,000.
Do you?
Speaker 1 (28:26):
think this is across the whole valley because that's
where we work.
But do you think that?
And I think that for the mostpart we have local governments
that are in tune with business.
But I would ask the nextquestion um, do you think they
realize how different it is andhow onerous it is?
(28:47):
And there's been some crazythings.
Building code keeps the otherthing, some of it's, out of
their control, so there'sseveral factors against us.
You have building codes,international building codes, so
these things change and thenthe cities, different cities,
adopt different, differentversions yeah, um, and when that
happens, crazy things happen.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
The hard part is that even when you come with a
common sense approach.
So I'm going to back up for aminute on just getting an
approval on an apartment or atownhome project.
I've brought up and it's not anew idea, it's not my idea, but
I brought up the fact that, hey,if I add an affordable
component to this project, putit at the top of the stack,
(29:27):
guarantee me approval in 90 daysand I'll do more of these.
The last project I did,downtown Boise, took me three
years for 30 units.
When I started the project itwas 44 units.
Got weeded down to 30 units,increased the amenities and then
at my final hearing, acouncilwoman asked me so how
(29:48):
many of these units are gonna beaffordable?
I said, well, it's three years.
Prices have done this, interestrates have done this, my
amenities went up, you reducedmy density.
You cost me over $5 million inthe project.
Zero units will be affordable.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
But does that connect ?
Do you think there's?
Speaker 2 (30:06):
That's where I say they walk the walk.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
I think they walk.
I wish that Because it's goingto be a problem.
One of the reasons that Ireally want to have you on is
you.
You, every single person I talkto now about almost anything.
Pick the issue it's housing.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
And the beauty is it's at the national level, it's
national state level, it's atthe local level, and the hotter
we get, the more micron doeswith all this.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
I mean this is this is not shutting off.
No matter what they say, that'snot shutting off and no matter
what they legislate at the localor state level.
People are coming here and it'sonly going to drive up prices.
What really needs to happen butI have no idea how you do this
is how do you go andconvincingly say let's have a
valley-wide kind of plan,because the hard part is it's at
(30:51):
the local level is where itstarts.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
There's only so much at the federal level.
And to your point on codes andsome of those things, we're
fighting that fight the locallevel is where most land use
decisions come from and that'swhere the layers get tacked on.
Right now, with the legislature, we're getting a working group
together, very political thoughIdaho the problem is I always
(31:16):
joke the problem with Idaho isit's very conservative.
The great problem with Idaho isit's very conservative.
The great thing with Idaho isit's very conservative.
And so, getting everybodytogether, having to your point a
valley-wide conversation,checking your ego at the door
and coming in with real-lifesolutions, our frustration, my
frustration, is I'm usuallypushed aside.
It's like wait a minute, youwant to talk housing?
(31:36):
I actually met with the whitehouse about a year ago and and
uh, they said hey, housing's anissue, we're bringing it up to
the state of the union.
Um, we, we, we want to addressthis, we want to get this taken
care of.
We, actually we, the experts,the white house think that in
order to get housing moreaffordable, we need to use more
union labor and be building moreenergy efficient homes.
(31:59):
I, my hand shot up, I, I, Icouldn't let that comment go and
I thought that's your, yoursolve to housing affordability.
Um, you, you pushed us asideand you got your experts
together and that's what youcame up with.
And that happens at all local,state, national.
Um, you're pushing the expertsaside, the free experts, the
(32:20):
guys that are willing to show upand give you free expert
analysis.
I build roads for a living.
I know how to get it moreaffordable.
I build projects.
I want better infrastructure.
No one wants crappy schools anda sewer or water plant that's
at capacity.
That doesn't bode well for aproject.
Invite the people that do thisall day, every day, into the
(32:43):
room.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
But there almost seems to be.
I don't think it's malintent, Ithink it's misunderstanding for
sure.
And then I think, when you'rein government, even if you came
from private sector, I thinkyou're hearing, you're in that
echo chamber 100, we're here tofix things.
We're here to fix things and Ithink, instead of well, in
(33:07):
medicine, it's do no harm, rightright one of the hypocritical
it's like right there yeah,first do no harm, because there
are things you can do that areactually worse than the thing.
And I think for government Iwish they had the same thing on
their wall.
It's like first do no harm, getoutside of your people and ask
people hey, what should we do?
(33:27):
Because we've got a problem?
We've got a problem and if youlook at listen, I mean we do
commercial, right, we do alittle bit of residential, but
it is getting hard.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
One example of that, tommy, is that we had the
legislature passed a bill 389, Ithink it was last year, year
before to limit how much localcities could collect through
taxes, property taxes.
What they did was theyartificially raised the cost of
of on all these small citiesit's for a big city like Boise,
(34:04):
meridian, that grows at a prettyconstant rate they weren't
hitting that cap.
But for star, for Middleton,for CUNA, these cities that are
seeing the rapid growth, andthey capped it.
So now, city of star, forinstance, I just pulled a permit
.
It was almost $20,000.
You think they did that rapidgrowth and they capped it.
So now, city of star, forinstance, I just pulled a permit
.
It was almost twenty thousanddollars.
You think they did that onpurpose?
Speaker 1 (34:21):
well, because here's the deal, like if you've got
constituents saying, hey, stopgrowth, stop growth.
I don't.
I don't know the answer to thisquestion, because one of the
ways you could stop growth, yeahthere's always an underlying
yeah if you make it so expensive, yeah if you truly screw it up
so bad that a building permitand star is twenty thousand
(34:42):
dollars and and it costs youknow our median prices for our
homes just keep going, and going, and going, like there is
probably a point.
What I don't understand aboutthat is these same people.
I can't believe they havefamilies here.
They're your neighbors, theseare local people.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
They're local people.
You're like trying to get younot want to have your kids live
here.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Do you want to not have?
Because the answer is alwaysgoing to be free market.
The answer is going to be weneed everything.
Right, we just went throughthem we need we need affordable
housing units, we needmulti-family, we need townhomes,
we need condos, we need singlefamily starter homes, we need
medium range homes.
We need the whole thing to makethis thing work and most of the
time, I feel like we're we'rebattling against a wave that
(35:25):
that people don't under, and Ithink we're, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
And here's the problem is that we don't have
like an organized first timehomeowners group, meaning that
when, um, once, you buy thehouse and you're in it, I don't
want to say you don't careanymore.
But you don't care anymore,You've made your purchase.
So there's not like a you knowtorches and pitchfork group out
there.
(35:47):
That's advocate, there are some, but there's not an organized
group.
Once I have my piece, I don'twant anybody else to have it.
That's actually a really goodpoint.
Group Once I have my piece, Idon't want anybody else to have
it.
That's actually a really goodpoint.
And so I think there's aconcession of how do we slow
growth down until it affects you?
But then once your kids havetheir house, then you don't care
anymore.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
It's a really good point.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
And if you have it, then you go to the, you go to
the meeting and say I don't wantany more and I've seen this at
so many city council meetingsthe things that if you're ever
really bored and you want towatch paint dry, go to a city
council meeting and watch thecomments.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Well, like our worst one was when we got our downtown
building approved.
Like the sheer hypocrisy, oh.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
I was shocked, like the sheer hypocrisy of the
testimony.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
And then the interesting thing, the first
time we went through it wasmultifamily of the testimony.
And then, the interesting thing, the first time we went through
it was multi-family okay.
And and we've got.
We went back and did deep diveson all the people that
testified yeah and like look,you know, they're all
millionaires living next door.
And their whole thing was hey,we don't want these apartment
people in our neighborhood.
Okay, so then we convert it tocondos, drop the number of units
(36:57):
.
Those same people come, comeback and say, no, we wanted a.
So it's all lies veiled in this.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Hey, I'm here, for I had a gal tell us and it was on
public testimony I should go getthe recording.
But she said I don't want ourkids playing with those kids.
And I was just floored and myplanner you know I'm like about
to blow up and she's like sitdown, sit down.
And I said I can't.
I said I have to address thatcomment and so I got up and it
(37:28):
wasn't meant to be rude, but Isaid the average price of these
projects will be way more than ahouse across your street.
So I'm sure they don't wanttheir kids playing with your
kids, but the point is, they'llsay anything they can.
Yeah, I couldn't even believethat that was a.
It was just hateful it was.
I get that you're worried aboutproperty value.
(37:49):
I get kind of the typicalconversations out there.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
But no one complains when their value goes up because
of the product product and theyare able to now sell their home
and make more money.
Before this has been great, butbut the other thing?
So you hear two things and andthey're in conflict with each
other you hear everybodylegislators, local people
talking about property taxes.
Everyone like, yeah, what arewe gonna do?
What are we gonna do?
And you have everyone talkabout affordability of housing.
Yet at the same time, you havemany of those same people
supporting and not standing upfor the restrictions, the
(38:26):
process, when it's so obviouslythe answer, and I think, when
you're in those electedpositions, maybe the heat I
don't know what like.
Is it the heat of the NIMBY-ism?
Is it the?
I mean why?
I don't think that they under.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
I mean it seems clear To you and I, because we deal
with it all day.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
But politically, what I'm trying to say is
politically, though, couldn'tyou say, if you were the mayor
hey, I'm doing this because I'mtrying to bring property taxes
down, and I'm doing this becauseI'm trying to make it
affordable for your kids andtheir kids to be here.
That seems super compelling.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
You have two arguing comments or conversations here.
You have price of homes and youhave property taxes and you're
trying to balance the two right.
And then you throw in the thirdof growth and everybody's
complaining about growth.
And really in Idaho thecomplaints growth.
And and everybody's complainingabout growth, um, and really in
idaho the complaints trafficand schools.
No one complains about thisbuilding, the services, the
(39:24):
extra costco that comes in thecosta vida, that no one
complains about.
No one.
Yeah, I'm but but the point isfewer people?
yeah, but the point is it usedto take me five minutes to get
there, now it takes me six andI've lost it right.
Or the school problem, which isa state problem, not a local.
It ends up being a localproblem, but it's a you know.
(39:48):
So there's a lot to unpackthere.
So are you trying to slowgrowth down by making it more
expensive?
But then, by making it moreexpensive, you get higher
property taxes and no one canafford to live in your city.
I mean it's, it's the pendulumswings, and so what's the
priority?
Is it?
Is it affordability?
Speaker 1 (40:04):
or is it anti-growth?
The last thing I want, I think,really cause I know you think
this way, um, so I know you dopolling and I know you do
research, cause I think, withyour national organizations, I
mean, instead of letting likesubjective feelings of, well,
this is what I feel, this iswhat I do, it it would be so
good to objectively look at alot of things like like how
(40:28):
short are we and where are weshort?
Speaker 2 (40:31):
and this idea of infill, right yeah I laugh.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
I laugh so hard sometimes because I will be
talking to really good people inBoise about some projects just
on the periphery of Boise andthey're like we hate sprawl and
I'm like, hey, I know youprobably don't go past 16th
Street ever, Right, right.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
We all love the Nubbubble.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
I know there's this thing past 16th Street that's
called Meridian and Nampa andCaldwell.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
No, that's Eastern Ontario, it is.
But that sprawl, yeah yeah, andyet the infill is so hard.
Oh, it's just brutal.
The project that took me threeyears.
It was on two acres, Vista andOverland Like the prime on
thebench great spot Utilitiesthere infrastructure there,
(41:21):
community center, bus stops,like all the things.
And yet in three years I couldhave done 20 projects in
Meridian at 100 acres.
But why don't they listen?
We've even provided the stats.
So to your point, not just thefields.
We've even provided the stats.
So to your point, not just thefields that you know.
(41:42):
We said, hey, what is the trueimpact of housing from a cost
perspective, from a communityperspective?
What does it contribute to theeconomy, not only in the first
year it's built, but then whenyou have a family living in it,
the ripple effect how manypeople are working in you know
for that home or on that home,and the ripple effect is
gigantic.
I'll get you in, you know forthat home or on that home, and
the ripple effect is gigantic.
I'll get you a copy of thatstudy.
We do it, we did.
(42:02):
We actually did it, um, in like2006 or seven when things were
gangbusters, and we did it inthe recession to show the
contrast when there was, whenthere was crazy growth and no
growth, um, and then I think weupdated that in 16 or 18.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
I'm going to switch just because I can't believe
we've been going at this forlong we have.
Can you talk a little bit on?
On the tariffs a little bit,although I think that changes
day to day because I don't knowhow much of it is going to
impact or not, and then, andthen, kind of what if I, if I
made you predict, kind of which,Steve?
Speaker 2 (42:40):
just to let you know it's impossible.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
What are you thinking with interest rates,
specifically on housing tariffs,how they're going to affect
pricing workforce?
I mean, there's just so manydifferent things.
But what does 2025 look like?
The rest of this year and goinginto 26 for your predictions?
Speaker 2 (42:55):
So the tariff discussion is one that I
actually think has zero to dowith tariffs Zero.
I think it's a tool.
It's a negotiating tool thatyou and I are getting caught in
the middle of right, and I thinkit is to your point.
It changes daily.
I was just on a call a fewminutes ago I can't remember
Liberation Day or something thatyou know when we came out and
(43:18):
liberated everybody from theirequity in the market is what I
call it.
But when they announced all thetariffs, they actually came out
a few days later and excludedCanada and Mexico on a few
things, and that's where amajority of the things that we
use in building come from.
If we are bringing it from outof the country, china is mostly
(43:39):
components, but um, lumber isthe one that is kind of the
poster child for when you wantto talk tariffs, the tariff
discussion.
Though, even though some ofthose things are excluded in my
business, your business, we haveto plan for them.
No matter what business doesn'tdo well with uncertainty.
I can't get into a contractwith a client um at price X when
(43:59):
I when it could be price Y orprice Z or wherever Um, and so I
have to plan for those.
So I build it into my pricing,which we all then pay for Um and
and a good example.
So in it, when COVID was goingyou know it was hot off the
press and going crazy for apiece, a four by eight sheet of
(44:19):
plywood it's OSB, but four byeight sheet of plywood that we
use on the entire house we werepaying about seven dollars a
sheet right before COVID hit.
When COVID hit we were paying80 to 90 dollars for that same
sheet.
I remember those days I didn'tknow it was that bad for that
same sheet.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
I remember those days .
Speaker 2 (44:37):
I had one house that we were building that I had to
go to the client and say you oweus an extra $250,000 for lumber
, not for a pool, not for a coolcountertop or any upgrade for
the same thing.
No one's going to walk intoyour house and notice any
difference, and so my fear withthe tariff thing is that we
(44:58):
can't get caught.
You know we got caughtflat-footed with covid.
We can't get caught.
So I have to build that intothe model my things are gonna,
even with the threat even withjust uncertainty it's going to
cost more, so everything withsuppliers.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Everything I'm bidding out right now it's just
going to be more, whether or notthey are whether it hits or not
they're building it into all ofall our subs correct.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
So there's affordability and and we really
push that with this white housethat you made housing a priority
and you've brought it upseveral times.
But this goes in the face ofthat and and I think that's the
canada, mexico thing why it wasexcluded.
But my suppliers are alreadyplanning for it, so they've
already adjusted their pricing,they built it into the pricing
(45:37):
model, whether it happens or not.
So that's the tariff component.
Then you have the immigrationcomponent and this one's really
frustrating and it's near anddear to my heart because I see
it every single day with my subs, my suppliers, with the
workforce that we have in inthis valley that is highly
reliant on that.
About 30% of the labor inconstruction is non-born
(46:04):
workforce in this country.
My frustration with this isthat it's a problem that the
federal government created andnow we're vilifying an entire
group.
I always say there's 1% ofanything that's bad, 1% of
doctors, 1% of builders, 1% ofimmigrants, 1% of throw a dart
and we're using that as thereason to go after an entire
(46:28):
group of people and it's reallyfrustrating.
We've made this group out to bethe boogeyman on something that
they're not.
I have guys coming to me saying,hey, I won't even send my
people to this jurisdiction orthis jurisdiction because
there's the threat of beingpicked up.
Now talk about labor shortage.
We already have a laborshortage.
(46:48):
We don't have people cominginto the trades and now we're
restricting the labor in certainmarkets.
We also always kind of point tolike the bottom of the barrel
oh, that's the cheap labor andthey're taking people's jobs.
It's not true.
I have guys that I know thatare their companies making six
to $10 million a year hereillegally working with an
(47:11):
immigration attorney.
But job creators making greatmoney, paying taxes, paying into
a system they will never get abenefit from not complaining
here for quality of life,building a family, sending their
kids to college.
So I think there's this posterchild of what immigrant labor
looks like.
And it's not just thedairymen's, it's not just ag,
(47:34):
it's not just the wine growersor restaurant and hotel business
, it's not just construction,it's business owners it's
families and again drives upcosts drives up costs rates.
So rates is an interesting one.
Um, I had the opportunity tomeet with chair pal last year
and it was just me and about 10other guys and we met with five
(47:55):
of the board of governors alongwith him and we had this
conversation and, uh, reallyinteresting meeting.
They were looking at a lot ofdifferent.
You know shelter inflation, notjust inflation.
You know that that inflationtarget is trying to get around
two to three percent.
Oddly enough, if you takeshelter inflation out of that
and this is getting into theweeds a little bit but we're're
(48:18):
at the 2% to 3%.
The only way in my mind and I'mnot an economist and definitely
not the Fed, but the only wayin my mind to get shelter
inflation down is to add moreunits.
The only way to add more unitsis to lower rates.
Initially, when you lower rates,there's going to be more
activity and it's going to raiseprices.
But I see in the long termthere's the spike right the
(48:45):
curve, and then I think itlevels back out.
When rates come down, you willsee a flood of homes coming back
on the market.
You're stuck with a 3% interestrate not stuck, but you've got
a 3% interest rate.
No way you're selling yourhouse, but you start getting
rates and I don't think we'llever see that again.
But you start getting rates andI don't think we'll ever see
that again.
But you start getting rates inthe fives and high fours and all
of a sudden, yeah, it'll moveagain.
Okay well, maybe I will sell myhouse because I've been wanting
(49:05):
to.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
So you're thinking that there's a lot of pressure
to get this down.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
There is, and I think that's the tariff thing, I
think that's the.
I mean, I think all of thesethings Trump's no dummy.
Well, we're renegotiating, Ithink, $9 trillion of US debt at
the same time, right CorrectPlus we have a tax cliff coming
up that I don't think anybody'swilling to talk about, but
(49:29):
that's a $4 to $6 trillion cliff.
We're coming up just to extend,not increase, any tax savings
but to extend the Trump tax cuts.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
Oh, Steve, we need to have you back again.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
This went by so fast.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
Hey, before we kind of, what's your website so I can
send people?
Speaker 2 (49:49):
your way.
So it's TradeWinsOfIdahocom.
We didn't really talk aboutyour core business,
tradewinsofidahocom.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
Steve builds unbelievable homes here.
Thank you, some of the mostamazing homes that you'll see in
Idaho, and you've done it for20?
.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
So I 06, so 22 or 18 years yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
As the owner of Tradewinds.
Well, hey, thank you for yourleadership in Idaho.
You're involved in so manythings and this has been great.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
I appreciate it.
It's a great, great topic andso timely for what we need to be
thinking about and looking atfor the Valley.
So thanks for coming on,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
Appreciate it, thanks everybody.
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