October 9, 2024 • 38 mins
This week we’re joined by Dennis Bowman, Extension Digital Agriculture Specialist with Illinois Extension. Our team was fascinated by our discussion with Dennis about agrivoltaics and University of Illinois’ major research project within this field. Discover what agrivoltaics is all about, why agricultural land is such an attractive target for solar development, and the challenges and opportunities that arise when combining agriculture and renewable energy. We'll also discuss how researchers are developing tools to empower landowners with the information they need to make informed decisions about these practices. Oh, and we find out more about farming games! Learn more on the blog.
Resources to learn more:
Sustainable Co-locating Agriculture and Photovoltaic Energy Systems (SCAPES) project
SCAPES YouTube
My Agrivoltaic Farm game app
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to another episode of the everyday
environment podcast where weexplore the environment we see
every day. I'm your host, AmyLefrenhaus.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
And I'm your co host, Abigail Garfalo.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
And as you know, here on the everyday environment
podcast, we are talking allthings climate this season.
We're covering the basics to themitigation and adaptation to our
changing climate. And one waythat we address this is through
our energy use. And today, weare talking with Dennis Bowman.
(00:41):
He is our extension specialistin digital ag, and he's gonna
talk to us about a very creativeinnovative solution, and that is
agrivoltaics.
Welcome, Dennis.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Well, let's start off just with the basics like we do
on every single podcast. What isagrivoltaics, and why is there
interest in this sort ofrenewable energy?
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Well, there's a lot of interest society wide in
renewable energy, and, wind andsolar are probably 2 of the
biggest types that we're we'reseeing implemented especially
across our landscape here inIllinois. And with solar farms,
we're seeing these, solardevelopers come in and develop
(01:32):
100 of acres, thousands of acresof prime farmland that's being
turned into solar farms. And inmost cases, the the land
underneath these solar farms isgoing out of production of
agriculture. And I am anagronomist by training, and so
growing crops is something I'vespent most of my career helping
(01:52):
farmers do a better job of andseeing the best farm ground in
the world being turned intosolar farms is somewhat hurts my
soul.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Well and and to clarify, these fields being
converted to solar, they're notbeing, like, taken from the
farmers. It's kind of like acost benefit analysis that
they're making a little bit, or,explain a little bit more about,
you know, why we're seeing alittle bit of the shift.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
So, solar developers are coming in to to put in these
solar farms, and they have beenrecruiting farmers, and paying
real very nice, rental rates fora 20 year lease on a farmer's
field. Well, that's, you know,20 years that this field is
gonna be out of production andnot producing food or feed, and
that's a little bit of achallenge, because the the
(02:39):
developers hold all the cardsand they they play play
everything very close to theirvest. So the farmers are going
into these negotiations, nothaving all all the information,
and so that that's somewhat of achallenge. And, you know, while
it is very profitable, there arestill, other concerns as well
that relate to the environmentthat goes along with these big
(03:01):
solar farms.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
True. Well, I'm excited to dive into that. And I
wanna know, you know, whycombine other than, you know, it
hurts our soul a little bit, ourlittle farmer soul, because my
family's farm, comes from a farmfamily as well. Even though I'm
up here in Cook County, I got myfeet downstate. But why why
might someone wanna combineagriculture and solar or
(03:24):
photovoltaics?
So one of the
Speaker 3 (03:27):
things that we're trying to discover and trying to
figure out is, can we do thisand make more money than just
solar or just farming? So isthere a way that we can get 1
and 1 equaling 1 and a 2a half?So if we're taking that 1 acre
of ground that's producing somuch electricity, and then
(03:50):
comparing that to what 1 acre ofground produces in crops, can we
combine those in the same fieldand make more money in total? So
that when we're taking a halfand a half, it's now better than
1. And so that's that's a betterland use efficiency.
So are there situations where wecan do that? And that's what
(04:11):
this Capes grant that I'minvolved in is trying to
determine what are the what arethe rules and what are the the
guidelines that we're trying tofigure out so that we could
build a profitable agrivoltaicsystem that combined an
agricultural operation and solarenergy production in the same
field.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I think it's it's kinda neat for us to shift make
that shift or make that pivotfairly quickly. You know, in
this podcast, we are focused onclimate change and the things
and the actions that we can takeon our land and and in our
homes, that we can do tomitigate climate change. And
this is one of thosecombination, solutions. Right?
(04:53):
We are still we're trying tostill produce agriculturally,
but we're also I mean,economically, we're making those
decisions too.
But also in the win win winsituation, we're, you know,
transitioning over to producingrenewable energy. So, we are
making that decision, you know,based on all of those factors,
(05:15):
but also making a good climatedecision as well.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
I was gonna add too. We're not land space is a is a
big thing, and we don't thinkabout it a ton in the United
States because we have a lot ofland to work with compared to
other countries. But thinkingabout, you know, if we're gonna
use this space for agriculture,can we use it as well for
something else? If we're gonnause this space for solar, you
know, a lot of what one of theoriginal solar fields on the U
(05:41):
of I campus is just turf. It'sjust grass.
It's an ecological dead zone,and it's not producing anything
for humans. It's not producinganything for nature, really. And
so having this dual purposelandscape, you know, we don't
have to have 2 separatelandscapes devoted to these 2
human things. We can have 1, andthat's really, really neat to
(06:01):
think about this these reallycreative solutions. And just to
kind of clarify, Dennis, yousaid SCAPS.
If you wanna clarify what thatstands for so that way the
audience isn't hanging on totheir hands, waiting.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
The reason that I'm here is because I'm part of the
Extension and Outreach partportion of the SCAPS grant,
which is sustainably collocatingagricultural and photovoltaic
energy systems. And so this is abig grant that came from USDA to
look at this issue and try tohelp come up with solutions that
(06:35):
would make help farmers makebetter decisions about
converting their land into intosolar production. And and with
some of our your discussionthere just a second ago, the
simplest form of agrivoltaics isjust to use the site as a
pollinator pollinator planting,and that's, you know, that's the
easiest and the the lowest runon the ladder for agrivoltaics.
(06:57):
And so that's providing anecosystem service, and it's
better than letting weeds andand grass, just plain grass grow
under the the panels.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
So, agriculturally, then what I guess, in the big
picture, what crops oragricultural practices have
shown the most most promise whenwe're combining solar
installations and agriculture.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
The next step up the ladder from the pollinator
plantings is probably grazing.By doing a a managed forage
system underneath the, the solarpanels and then just grazing
that with sheep have shown themost promise. Goats can be a
little aggressive. Cattle needthe panels raised a little
higher, which is a little moreexpensive. So there's been a
(07:40):
real successful work with, withsheep and grazing those.
There's a pilot program inIllinois, that's that's doing
some sheep grazing under one ofthe big solar farms down in
Coles County, and there's a lotof this happening in the in the
northeast that there are sheepproducers that are basically
running their sheep flocks andtrailering them around from
(08:02):
solar farm to solar farm to takeadvantage of some good grazing
and shade throughout the summerand to keep, the vegetation
managed underneath the solarpanels. Because one of the
things we've discovered and thatI discovered in some of our
meetings with the solardevelopers is how much they
really hate the annualmaintenance cost for these solar
farms because they're requiredto keep the weeds managed. You
(08:25):
don't want this to turn into a,a haven for noxious weeds. So
they've gotta manage this, andthere's an annual fee, and it's
fairly substantial to keep thevegetation control because it's
it's a challenge to mow aroundall the posts and all the
equipment and stuff and has tobe done fairly carefully.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah. I'm thinking about how that annual
maintenance, not just for youwant something short as well for
to not shade out your panels. Soyou can't grow things super tall
under those panels depending onhow high you prop them up.
Right? And so you gotta maintainthem anyways.
And so having some agriculturemanaging it for you, that'd be
(09:05):
great.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
So, yeah, letting a farmer come in and manage that
so we're they're getting anincome off of it. So that's, you
know, that's a a benefit to tothem. And a lot of times, we've
got landlords that are puttingthese sites into solar farms and
displacing a tenant farmer thathas been renting this farm for
crop production. Oh. So thiskeeps that, you know, a and a
(09:28):
livelihood for the the tenantfarmer to be able to to take
over and do do some productionlike that in these solar farm
sites.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
It's not always the direct manager of the land
that's making those choices.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Yes. Because a lot of our Illinois farmland is man is
owned by absentee landlords.Right there. James project. So
we're looking at the next run upthe ladder, actually looking at
plant and crop production.
So we're actually trying to growsoybeans and then sorghum and
some other, alfalfa and foragesunderneath of as well. Corn,
(10:02):
like you said, is a little tall.We have some short statured corn
but even with that, we wouldneed to get the panels up a
little bit higher and that costmore steel and that raises the
construction cost for the forthe program. And so that's one
of the challenges to do that.With the SCAPES program, we're
(10:24):
using one of the one of thoseIllinois, University of Illinois
solar farms as a as a test siteto do some of our experiments.
We're trying to build our ownresearch solar array that is
elevated and spaced out a littlebit more so we can do some
research on it, but that hasbeen a challenge because of
supply chain issues andinflation to get that built, in
(10:48):
the, as part of our grant.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Well, are there any environmental concerns or
drawbacks associated with theAgrivoltaics system?
Speaker 3 (10:57):
So you when you take, a site and may turn it into,
just a solar farm and you youtake that biologically, it
becomes somewhat of a biologicaldesert. And so by bringing in
the the agrivoltaics, you canincrease the biodiversity of
that. You still have some issueswith shade and and changes
(11:17):
potentially in the way rainfallgets captured on the site,
drainage issues. But in mostpart, a lot of the things we
hear about solar farms is isprobably not more of an urban
myth on some of the theproblems. The materials that go
into building a solar farm areare pretty, the panels are
(11:38):
pretty inert.
They have some exotic compoundsin them, but they're pretty much
encapsulated in in glass or, informs that are very
environmentally stable. So theydon't tend to to to break down.
They're in compounds that aretighter than mother nature would
generally be able to pull apart.As we look at some of these big
(11:58):
solar farms, you know, they dohave somewhat of an effect on
their environment a little bit,the way the the sunlight's being
absorbed, but it's often not amajor impact on the on the area.
One of the things we found isthat, solar panels actually do
better when they have, activelygrow growing plants underneath
of them because of thetranspiration the
(12:20):
evapotranspiration and thecooling effect under the panel
helps increase the electricalefficiency of the panel itself.
Wow. By keeping keeping them alittle cooler, it actually
improves the output of thepanels.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
That's really cool. I love that little ecology going
on in the interactions. That'sawesome.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
The Scapes project is is a multi state project, and so
we're doing it here in Illinois,but we also have partners in at
Colorado State and at Universityof Arizona. And so we've got 3
different climates that areworking with this and then we're
all focusing on some differenttypes of plants. So the Arizona
group, very sun heavy and sunintensive environment with low
(13:02):
moisture. A lot of the farmersthere are getting irrigation
restrictions on them so they'relooking at at ways that they can
conserve water by having shade.So that makes whatever
irrigation they have go lastlonger and high value crops like
tomatoes and some of the leafygreen crops tend to are showing
(13:24):
an affinity for having at leastpartial shade during the day and
then production's much better inthose.
The Colorado site's looking athigh value crops and at
grasslands for, cattle grazingor sheep grazing. And then at
Illinois, we're we're trying tolook at at row crop field crops
that were more common here inIllinois.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
That's really cool looking at 3 different climates
and, agricultural needs as well.The oh, one time sometimes you
hear, like, oh, it worked overin this state. Why can't it work
at this state? Well, there's awhole different as we as we
stated earlier, United States isbig. It's got a lot of different
climates going on with it.
So comparing them and havingsimilar, if not the same, ways
(14:06):
of collecting that data and andunifying, is going to be so
helpful for advancing, this thiseffort in the future to, really
kinda see how we can makeagrivoltaics work for our ever
needing energy.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
We have a team of of just the some of the top notch
plant physiology people, acrossthe country that are part of
this project. And so at whatwe've learned amongst the
different plants, are are thingsthat help us understand things
maybe we're not even growing,but they would act similar, so
that they have a we know thatthey have a similar biology to
(14:45):
one another. Peppers andtomatoes, very similar. Other
crops that are are closelyrelated that we would expect to
act similar to some of our testcrops. So we're hoping to be
able to evaluate even a widerrange of things than we're
actually having in ourexperiments and be able to make
recommendations.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Tell me again this is just me going backwards. What
what are the typical solarcontracts that producers are
being approached with? Is it didyou say 10 years? 20. 20.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Often 20. That's generally considered to be the
the life cycle of of the solarpanel.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
The panel? Okay. Dennis, you talked about scapes.
You know, we've mentioned scapeshere and there and what, you're
that you're involved with thatgrant project. Tell us a little
bit about just or just give usan overview of of the project as
a whole and, you know, what areits primary objectives.
You've talked a little bit aboutit, but, just dive a little bit
(15:40):
deeper, I guess, into escapes.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
You would think we might know more about solar than
than we than we do, so we wehave a team that's that's
working on a model of predictingsolar efficiency for different
kinds of panels any place on theglobe. So you could build you
know, you can say we're gonnaput this kind of panel at this
latitude and longitude, how muchenergy can it produce? So it's
(16:06):
made out of this material, ithas a certain type type of
tracking on whether it followsthe sun or is fixed in place,
and so how much energy. So ifwe're gonna try to make a
decision on on profit, we needto have that total amount of
electricity potential that wecould get paid for. So we need
be able to do that.
Then we need to be able tounderstand what's the response
(16:29):
from the plants when they'rebeing grown in in partial shade.
Because if you look at theground underneath a solar farm,
you're gonna have a shadow thatmoves throughout the day and
you'll have areas that aregetting morning sun and and
midday sun and then latey lateafternoon shade and just the
(16:49):
opposite as well, as well asareas that pretty much get solid
shade, a narrow area under thepanels that get shade 100% of
the time and then if its panelsare spaced wide enough, you'll
get an area in the middle thatgets full sun. And so,
understanding how the plantsreact to those multitude of
environments is is reallyimportant. So that's why we've
(17:10):
got this team of plantphysiologists are working on
that. We've got a team ofeconomists that are tying some
of these things together.
So we can build a decisionsupport tool that would help
farmers understand, if I wannado this profitably, I could
pace, you know, how wide would Ihave to place the panels to be
able to farm, how much base do Ineed, and how much is that gonna
(17:31):
cost me in electricity return?Or if I squeeze the panels
together and I get more shade,how much yield is that gonna
cost from different plants? Andif it's gonna cost you know, if
it's not gonna do well with thiscrop, is there a plant that
would do better in thisenvironment? So that's what
we're trying to to build adismiss decision support
network, that looks at all thesedifferent phases that helps the
(17:54):
developers understand and thefarmers understand as well.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Yeah. And, I mean, like you said, these are their
livelihoods. This is this is a adecision that's, like,
determining how much moneythey're gonna make or how much
they can, how they canresponsibly use the land as well
and take care of of of that,that stewardship of that land
that, they're working on. And sohow are the farmers in the local
(18:21):
communities being involved inthe project?
Speaker 3 (18:23):
With our Ag Econ group, they are doing a lot of
focus groups with industry andwith farmers to try to get
information from them abouttheir perceptions of solar solar
and agrivoltaics and what theywhat they would like to see
happen. And so they're beingincluded in this process. We've
(18:44):
been actively, recruiting peopleto be part of our stakeholder
group and to participate in someof our focus groups to help,
help inform our decisions. Withone of our groups of farmers, we
worked with Illinois Farm Bureauto put together a group of
farmers that sat down with ourour our team and and discussed
(19:05):
spent an evening discussingagrivoltaics. One of the quotes
out of there is, was that we'refarmers.
We wanna produce something. Andjust handing over their land to
somebody else, and get eventhough it's a big check, that
it's it's taking some part oftheir identity away from. So,
you know, we're and we'regetting a lot of, of the input
(19:26):
from the solar developers aswell. They have concerns about
security of their sites, aswell. So there's a a there are
trade offs there.
Solar developers are moreinterested in agrivoltaics if
there's the option that it'sgonna give them access to more
acres, because we have areaswhere they're putting
communities are putting inordinances that, would require a
(19:48):
certain amount of agrivoltaicson solar development, and that's
another the whole whole publicpolicy angle is another thing.
Under the current economicsituations, what I can tell you
is that the price being paid forthe electricity is really high,
and it really dominates the theside. So that ag has a hard time
(20:12):
competing with that in a on alevel playing field, but if
incentives go away or if theaccess to land goes away, that
there's restrictions, then,agrivoltaics, play can come in
and play a better bigger role,and, we need to know how to do
that and make it profitable.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
So messy, but also like
Speaker 3 (20:35):
It's complicated. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Complicated and messy, but I I like why it's
messy because it's not justabout the dollar value, It's
about the people and theconnection to the land and what,
people want out of their ownlandscape and and their
livelihoods and how they wannaearn their money. And I think
that's really fascinating andinteresting and part of the
(20:58):
human experience that is,oftentimes an excluded one when
we're talking about making bigmoney choices. So I think it's
it's so important that we'rehaving this conversation and
that that conversation ishappening on this national
level, in a really, really coolway. So I love that you all are
having those those actualconversations with farmers
because, I mean, that's whatextension's all about, right,
(21:19):
being in the community. And soit's it's so good to see that
that's, like, built into a bigproject like this.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
It really makes you think about those connections to
the land and how strong theyreally are, and I don't know.
It's it's neat to hear hear thatfrom you, Dennis, that that, the
farmers are thinking about theiridentity and their legacy,
right, that they're passing onto the next, generation and what
they what they wanna pass on.Well, I'm sure when you get into
(21:47):
those rooms with, farmers andproducers that they have a lot
of, things to say, have how it'smaybe not gonna work. So in
these conversations, what aresome of the technical challenges
maybe in the research that youguys are doing that where you
are implementing theseagrivoltaics systems. What are
(22:08):
the challenges that you'reseeing in the research and the
and, you know, in response tosome of the feedback you're
getting from the farmers?
Speaker 3 (22:14):
You know, Illinois, the predominant crops are are
corn and soybeans, wheat, andwheat, to a lesser degree, but
corn is is quite a challenge andunder the solar panels, and the
cost of a field that would besuitable for corn production
might be somewhat prohibitivebecause of the additional height
(22:35):
that the panels would have to beraised. So that's that that's a
little bit of a challenge. Alsobeing the fact that we need the
panels generally, if they're notgonna be high enough, then they
need to be able to rotate sothat they're completely vertical
so that it can give the maximumamount of space to get equipment
through there. The other thingis farmers like their large farm
(22:56):
equipment and don't are aren'treally excited about getting
smaller farm equipment to getthrough a an agrivoltaics field.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
And invested a lot in their farm equipment too.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
We've invested a lot. And one of the things we're
looking at with our experimentthis this year from what we've
kinda learned is we're lookingwe've added more forages into
our our experiments, so thatwe're looking at hay production.
The hay equipment's generallynot as large as the the tillage
(23:28):
and planting equipment that alot of the big farmers have, So
it would be a fit in thesealleyways between the solar
panels much much easier. Theother thing is being involved in
digital agriculture and workwith, autonomous vehicles and
robots. There's some really coolfarm equipment that's being
developed, that's autonomous,can run 24 hours a day, that is
(23:51):
a smaller form factor.
So they be it might be bettersuited, in these solar fields
because it it would woulddoesn't need to be as big
because it can run all by itselffor long periods of time.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Yeah. I was just gonna ask the question. Are some
of these small that smallerequipment that you were talking
about on the market right now?
Speaker 3 (24:12):
There's some amazing stuff in in Europe right now
than some of the midmanufacturers our manufacturers
over there, that have built someof these, multipurpose,
autonomous machines that you canfit a variety of implements on
this robot, that can do tillage,planting, harvesting all on the
same basic same frame.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Makes me think of, there's a Magic School Bus
episode, the new one, in whichthey talk about, like, they call
it ghost farm, and the kids,like, approach it. Farm.
There's, like, ghosts drivingthe tractors, and there's, like,
these crazy things, and, andit's it's a digger digital
agriculture farm. So they haveall these, new technology to,
(24:53):
it's a it's a test site thatthey end up visiting. Very, very
cool.
I encourage everyone to check itout. It's great outreach for the
youth, to to figure out, and Ifound it very fascinating too
from my point of view as well.Well, we talked about, the
people part and the technicalpart, and so let's talk a little
bit about the economics. Let'stake a minute. So how does the
economic viability ofagrivoltaics compare to
(25:18):
traditional farming and thenjust, like, stand alone
projects?
You were saying, you know, it'sit, can we combine them to kinda
meet in the middle somewhere?How does that work?
Speaker 3 (25:26):
So like I have, with the current, market environment,
and, large, corporations thatneed carbon credits and need
energy or energy credits. Sothey're investing a lot of money
in funding solar farms that canmake them greener. And so that
(25:47):
competition
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Greener in, like, the environmental sense. If my first
thought was greener in, like,the y'all, this is an audio
podcast, but I just meant, like,somebody's symbol with my
fingers.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
So they have environmental goals to meet, and
so they're often investing andand putting money in behind
these solar farms and to topromote their development. And
so that and the and the price ofthe subsidies for the
electricity off of these farmsare, substantial and they're
(26:21):
slowing probably slowing thecost a little bit or the
economics in favor of a 100%solar, but even with a 100%
solar farms, that doesn't meanwe couldn't do the the grazing
or the pollinator plantings. Sothose are are still some options
even under those situations, butif things change in the future
(26:44):
or we have regulations orincentive other incentives that
come in through public policy.We wanna be able to to meet
those needs with goodinformation about how we can how
we can blend more ag into thatsystem and do it profitably.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
I was I was think I could guess maybe you probably
answered this, but I wasthinking about retrofitting. You
know, if you already have asolar installation in there, I
guess it just it would depend onmaybe your structure of your
contract or what you can andcan't do on that or maybe even
provide a negotiating stancesince the solar company has to
(27:23):
maintain that, you know, theunderneath of the of the solar
panels. Maybe you have now a anew negotiating point where you
could introduce some of thatstuff if you've already put in a
solar installation. Would thatbe right?
Speaker 3 (27:38):
No. It depends on who the owner of the the site is. If
it's if it's a large utilitycompany, if it's utility scale,
you're probably not gonna getvery far. If it's community
scale, and there's a local boardthat's managing the site, then
they might be more in put morefavorably on local people
getting in there and and makingthe site more environmentally
(28:01):
friendly for the neighborhoodand the community. And then if
we're actually down to the sizeof a business or residential
scale, if they've got a smallset of solar panels that they've
got there on the farm, think ofthe shade as an asset and what
can you use that shade forrather than just grass and think
(28:23):
of ways that maybe there arecertain you should put part of
your garden under that solarpanel because there's some
things that are gonna do goodthere.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Mhmm. Interesting. Just allowing us to think of it
a little bit differently. Yes.Well, the little people, we're
talking about Magic School Bus.
Dennis, Throughscapes, tell usabout the efforts to educate
youth about agrivoltaics.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
One of the old extension models is if you wanna
teach the adults, you you startwith their kids.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Your original extension model, Dennis.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
I know. I wasn't there then, Abbotneil. But
Speaker 2 (28:59):
I do a history of extension. I find it
fascinating. And, yeah, 4 hclubs, corn clubs is what they
call them.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
Clubs in the Coopon County, my home county.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Really? Thevis, you weren't there just a couple
years later.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Yes. The Georgia Atwell Corn Clubs. But so with
the agrivoltaics project, we, aspart of the the grant, have an
education team that worked witha game company to build an
agrivoltaics farming game. It'scalled My Agrivoltaics Farm.
It's available for both Appleand Android.
(29:34):
So you can go to the app storesand download this, and you can
start off with a little farm,and start growing your crops.
And as you make money and andmeet the goals of the game, you
can add solar panels to yourfarm, and you can change your
mix of crops. There are someguidelines in there that'll help
you figure out which crops aregonna do better under the solar
(29:54):
panels. And as you make moremoney, you can upgrade your
farm, get better solar panelsthat track, and you can get more
acres. You can buy a tractor,different things.
You can upgrade your farmsteadso that you get rewarded as
you're going through the gameand you get to see your profits
(30:18):
accumulate based on the cropsand having the solar panels as
well. So it's it's a fun fungame. It was built with junior
eye students in mind, and we'vetested it at some of the science
centers or the children'smuseums, Indianapolis and Saint
Louis and had really goodresponse from there. And,
(30:41):
eventually, we'll have somekiosks at those sites where kids
can log in and and try out thegame. But you can do it now.
It's available for download andand also if you're a teacher,
they're in the process creatinga teacher's manual to go with it
so it could be used forclassroom educational activities
as well.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
That's cool. It's almost like a it's almost like a
mini decision support tool.Right, Dennis? It's like the the
pilot.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
And our our crop physiologists had input into the
the how the crops respond torainfall and sun and shade. So
we've built weather models intothe game as well so you can
check the forecast to see if ifirrigating today is gonna be a
good idea or not.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
I'm so excited. Middle school youth, it's
designed for me. I'm so excited.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
I have wasted it oh, not wasted. I've invested it
quite
Speaker 1 (31:39):
in playing it as well. So Research. Right?
Speaker 3 (31:43):
We got a little contest within the team on who,
who can make the most money inthe game. So
Speaker 1 (31:50):
So you can upgrade your solar panels too? Is that
what you said?
Speaker 3 (31:54):
Yes. Yeah. So you can start off with just standard,
simple fixed panels and you canmount you can get the tracking
mounts so that they they,produce more electricity per
cycle.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
So in your in your Scapes real life project, do you
guys do studies on all thedifferent models of solar panels
that are on the market? Like, do
Speaker 3 (32:16):
you have Yes. Yes. So we we can tell you if it's a
tracking panel, how much we'dexpect it to be able to produce
electricity wise versus a fixedmount, a single track versus a
double track system that pivotslike a sunflower and just tracks
the sun all day long versus justchanging the tilt east to west.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Yeah. Cool.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Well, we have our last question before our little
everyday observation, and, thisis our climate change season. So
when it comes to, you know,agrivoltaics, scapes, project,
things like that, do you haveany everyday tips for us when it
comes to climate change?
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Recent experience is I was just gone for a week, and
while I was gone, my smart mysmart thermostat on my house
sampled, and knew I was away.And it changed the entire
thermostat settings for ourhouse while we were gone. And so
I've been fine tuning it sincethen to try to get that. So
(33:18):
renewable energy and energyefficiency, are things that that
we can all work on.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Awesome. Okay. To finish today, Dennis, we do this
thing on each of our podcastwhere we share our everyday
observation, where we highlightsomething mundane or simple,
normal, in our environment thatwe see, but is actually really
interesting and really cool. SoI'm gonna ask Abigail first to
(33:47):
share her everyday observationthat you have witnessed the last
few weeks or so.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Yeah. So I have a little bunny nest somewhere in
the vicinity of my yard. Ihaven't found it yet. And, my
children are obsessed with it.My mother came and named one of
the bunnies hot dog, which isthe most comical name I can
think of for a bunny.
I don't know why. And so hot dogand his buddies, one of which is
(34:16):
called Taco. I don't know why wechose food, but that's what we
went for. And I was like, I usedto hate bunnies. They still they
kind of frustrate me when theyeat my new plants, but what I've
noticed is that my violets arenot as much of a problem this
year, and they're eating all theviolet leaves around.
And I'm like, you know what? I'mgood with you. So I am happy for
(34:39):
that little bit of naturalcontrol going on in my yard, a
little ecology happening in mylandscape, play animals eating
plants, and providing a littlebit of entertainment. So I think
that's pretty cool, and I'm I'mintrigued to see, right now
they've really just been eatingmy weeds. So I'm like, what is
growing differently, And what'sgrowing better, and how can I
(35:03):
keep that going?
So I'm curious to kind of keep alittle bit more stock of of what
they're eating and noticing thatso that way I can kind of
encourage that kind of grazing.So that's that's my everyday
observation.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Awesome. I too have baby bunnies in my under my
cucumber vines. They seem tolike the shade underneath there,
I guess. They're not doing anydamage, but yeah. Dennis, do you
have a an everyday observation?
Speaker 3 (35:32):
Just a couple weekends ago, we had a my fam I
had my family all got together,my my 2 kids and and my 2
granddaughters, we rented acabin near Starved Rock, and did
a lot of hiking and, some of thecanyons there at Starved Rock.
And just, watching those 18month old and 3 year old
(35:54):
granddaughters experience thethe nature there, was, was
really fun and just, made mehappy.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Yeah. That's how old my kids are, and it's a magical
time. Bugs are amazing to them.For sure.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Alright, Amy. I'll share my absurd everyday
observation. I mine's not reallyeveryday because I actually got
to go on a trip. I told you,Abigail, that I was going on
this trip, but I recentlyreturned from, Wisconsin, and I
got to go to Aldo Leopold'sshack in, outside Baraboo,
(36:27):
Wisconsin and sit inside theshack and sit in the place
where, you know, Leopold madeall of his observations in on
his property in the Sand Countyarea in Wisconsin. Not Sand
County itself.
It's Salt County, but in theSand County region of Wisconsin.
(36:48):
Got to see, you know, pines thathim and his family had planted,
you know, in the thirties andforties. And, now it's time to
read a Sand County almanacalmanac again, because now I
have seen and witnessed thethings that he had witnessed.
And so those stories and thoseessays are gonna, you know, take
(37:09):
on a whole whole newperspective. So that was kind of
one of my bucket list items.
So it wasn't really an everydayobservation. It was a bucket
list observation, but it wasreally neat and inspiring.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Ila, you, I read the May Watts' book and her she's
from Illinois, and a lot of herobservations are around. And
then if you read her secondedition, she, like, comes back
and visits those sites, like, somany years later. And there was
one on the, the dunes, And itwas really interesting to hear
so you can, like, go visit thosesites. So, yeah, those kind of,
(37:42):
like, visiting the naturalistobservation book sites are just
very, very cool and, just a wayto kind of take in nature a
little bit deeper.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Yeah. Connect. And then Yeah. Oh, for sure. Well,
this has been fun.
Thank you again, Dennis, forsharing your knowledge on
agrivoltaics. We reallyappreciate you being here. I
can't wait to go download theapp, play some, my agrivoltaics
farm. Right? That's the app.
(38:14):
We'll have to put that in theshow notes. I know my nephew
will be super excited aboutthat. So this has been another
episode on the EverydayEnvironment podcast. Check us
out next week where we talk toSue Gasper and Jamini Galsot
about food waste and compostingand climate change.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
This podcast is a University of Illinois Extension
production, hosted and edited byAbigail Garfalo, Aaron Garrett,
and Amy Lefringhaus.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
University of Illinois Extension.
Welcome to another episode of the everyday
environment podcast where weexplore the environment we see
every day. I'm your host, AmyLefrenhaus.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
And I'm your co host, Abigail Garfalo.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
And as you know, here on the everyday environment
podcast, we are talking allthings climate this season.
We're covering the basics to themitigation and adaptation to our
changing climate. And one waythat we address this is through
our energy use. And today, weare talking with Dennis Bowman.
(00:41):
He is our extension specialistin digital ag, and he's gonna
talk to us about a very creativeinnovative solution, and that is
agrivoltaics.
Welcome, Dennis.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Well, let's start off just with the basics like we do
on every single podcast. What isagrivoltaics, and why is there
interest in this sort ofrenewable energy?
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Well, there's a lot of interest society wide in
renewable energy, and, wind andsolar are probably 2 of the
biggest types that we're we'reseeing implemented especially
across our landscape here inIllinois. And with solar farms,
we're seeing these, solardevelopers come in and develop
(01:32):
100 of acres, thousands of acresof prime farmland that's being
turned into solar farms. And inmost cases, the the land
underneath these solar farms isgoing out of production of
agriculture. And I am anagronomist by training, and so
growing crops is something I'vespent most of my career helping
(01:52):
farmers do a better job of andseeing the best farm ground in
the world being turned intosolar farms is somewhat hurts my
soul.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Well and and to clarify, these fields being
converted to solar, they're notbeing, like, taken from the
farmers. It's kind of like acost benefit analysis that
they're making a little bit, or,explain a little bit more about,
you know, why we're seeing alittle bit of the shift.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
So, solar developers are coming in to to put in these
solar farms, and they have beenrecruiting farmers, and paying
real very nice, rental rates fora 20 year lease on a farmer's
field. Well, that's, you know,20 years that this field is
gonna be out of production andnot producing food or feed, and
that's a little bit of achallenge, because the the
(02:39):
developers hold all the cardsand they they play play
everything very close to theirvest. So the farmers are going
into these negotiations, nothaving all all the information,
and so that that's somewhat of achallenge. And, you know, while
it is very profitable, there arestill, other concerns as well
that relate to the environmentthat goes along with these big
(03:01):
solar farms.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
True. Well, I'm excited to dive into that. And I
wanna know, you know, whycombine other than, you know, it
hurts our soul a little bit, ourlittle farmer soul, because my
family's farm, comes from a farmfamily as well. Even though I'm
up here in Cook County, I got myfeet downstate. But why why
might someone wanna combineagriculture and solar or
(03:24):
photovoltaics?
So one of the
Speaker 3 (03:27):
things that we're trying to discover and trying to
figure out is, can we do thisand make more money than just
solar or just farming? So isthere a way that we can get 1
and 1 equaling 1 and a 2a half?So if we're taking that 1 acre
of ground that's producing somuch electricity, and then
(03:50):
comparing that to what 1 acre ofground produces in crops, can we
combine those in the same fieldand make more money in total? So
that when we're taking a halfand a half, it's now better than
1. And so that's that's a betterland use efficiency.
So are there situations where wecan do that? And that's what
(04:11):
this Capes grant that I'minvolved in is trying to
determine what are the what arethe rules and what are the the
guidelines that we're trying tofigure out so that we could
build a profitable agrivoltaicsystem that combined an
agricultural operation and solarenergy production in the same
field.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I think it's it's kinda neat for us to shift make
that shift or make that pivotfairly quickly. You know, in
this podcast, we are focused onclimate change and the things
and the actions that we can takeon our land and and in our
homes, that we can do tomitigate climate change. And
this is one of thosecombination, solutions. Right?
(04:53):
We are still we're trying tostill produce agriculturally,
but we're also I mean,economically, we're making those
decisions too.
But also in the win win winsituation, we're, you know,
transitioning over to producingrenewable energy. So, we are
making that decision, you know,based on all of those factors,
(05:15):
but also making a good climatedecision as well.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
I was gonna add too. We're not land space is a is a
big thing, and we don't thinkabout it a ton in the United
States because we have a lot ofland to work with compared to
other countries. But thinkingabout, you know, if we're gonna
use this space for agriculture,can we use it as well for
something else? If we're gonnause this space for solar, you
know, a lot of what one of theoriginal solar fields on the U
(05:41):
of I campus is just turf. It'sjust grass.
It's an ecological dead zone,and it's not producing anything
for humans. It's not producinganything for nature, really. And
so having this dual purposelandscape, you know, we don't
have to have 2 separatelandscapes devoted to these 2
human things. We can have 1, andthat's really, really neat to
(06:01):
think about this these reallycreative solutions. And just to
kind of clarify, Dennis, yousaid SCAPS.
If you wanna clarify what thatstands for so that way the
audience isn't hanging on totheir hands, waiting.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
The reason that I'm here is because I'm part of the
Extension and Outreach partportion of the SCAPS grant,
which is sustainably collocatingagricultural and photovoltaic
energy systems. And so this is abig grant that came from USDA to
look at this issue and try tohelp come up with solutions that
(06:35):
would make help farmers makebetter decisions about
converting their land into intosolar production. And and with
some of our your discussionthere just a second ago, the
simplest form of agrivoltaics isjust to use the site as a
pollinator pollinator planting,and that's, you know, that's the
easiest and the the lowest runon the ladder for agrivoltaics.
(06:57):
And so that's providing anecosystem service, and it's
better than letting weeds andand grass, just plain grass grow
under the the panels.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
So, agriculturally, then what I guess, in the big
picture, what crops oragricultural practices have
shown the most most promise whenwe're combining solar
installations and agriculture.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
The next step up the ladder from the pollinator
plantings is probably grazing.By doing a a managed forage
system underneath the, the solarpanels and then just grazing
that with sheep have shown themost promise. Goats can be a
little aggressive. Cattle needthe panels raised a little
higher, which is a little moreexpensive. So there's been a
(07:40):
real successful work with, withsheep and grazing those.
There's a pilot program inIllinois, that's that's doing
some sheep grazing under one ofthe big solar farms down in
Coles County, and there's a lotof this happening in the in the
northeast that there are sheepproducers that are basically
running their sheep flocks andtrailering them around from
(08:02):
solar farm to solar farm to takeadvantage of some good grazing
and shade throughout the summerand to keep, the vegetation
managed underneath the solarpanels. Because one of the
things we've discovered and thatI discovered in some of our
meetings with the solardevelopers is how much they
really hate the annualmaintenance cost for these solar
farms because they're requiredto keep the weeds managed. You
(08:25):
don't want this to turn into a,a haven for noxious weeds. So
they've gotta manage this, andthere's an annual fee, and it's
fairly substantial to keep thevegetation control because it's
it's a challenge to mow aroundall the posts and all the
equipment and stuff and has tobe done fairly carefully.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah. I'm thinking about how that annual
maintenance, not just for youwant something short as well for
to not shade out your panels. Soyou can't grow things super tall
under those panels depending onhow high you prop them up.
Right? And so you gotta maintainthem anyways.
And so having some agriculturemanaging it for you, that'd be
(09:05):
great.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
So, yeah, letting a farmer come in and manage that
so we're they're getting anincome off of it. So that's, you
know, that's a a benefit to tothem. And a lot of times, we've
got landlords that are puttingthese sites into solar farms and
displacing a tenant farmer thathas been renting this farm for
crop production. Oh. So thiskeeps that, you know, a and a
(09:28):
livelihood for the the tenantfarmer to be able to to take
over and do do some productionlike that in these solar farm
sites.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
It's not always the direct manager of the land
that's making those choices.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Yes. Because a lot of our Illinois farmland is man is
owned by absentee landlords.Right there. James project. So
we're looking at the next run upthe ladder, actually looking at
plant and crop production.
So we're actually trying to growsoybeans and then sorghum and
some other, alfalfa and foragesunderneath of as well. Corn,
(10:02):
like you said, is a little tall.We have some short statured corn
but even with that, we wouldneed to get the panels up a
little bit higher and that costmore steel and that raises the
construction cost for the forthe program. And so that's one
of the challenges to do that.With the SCAPES program, we're
(10:24):
using one of the one of thoseIllinois, University of Illinois
solar farms as a as a test siteto do some of our experiments.
We're trying to build our ownresearch solar array that is
elevated and spaced out a littlebit more so we can do some
research on it, but that hasbeen a challenge because of
supply chain issues andinflation to get that built, in
(10:48):
the, as part of our grant.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Well, are there any environmental concerns or
drawbacks associated with theAgrivoltaics system?
Speaker 3 (10:57):
So you when you take, a site and may turn it into,
just a solar farm and you youtake that biologically, it
becomes somewhat of a biologicaldesert. And so by bringing in
the the agrivoltaics, you canincrease the biodiversity of
that. You still have some issueswith shade and and changes
(11:17):
potentially in the way rainfallgets captured on the site,
drainage issues. But in mostpart, a lot of the things we
hear about solar farms is isprobably not more of an urban
myth on some of the theproblems. The materials that go
into building a solar farm areare pretty, the panels are
(11:38):
pretty inert.
They have some exotic compoundsin them, but they're pretty much
encapsulated in in glass or, informs that are very
environmentally stable. So theydon't tend to to to break down.
They're in compounds that aretighter than mother nature would
generally be able to pull apart.As we look at some of these big
(11:58):
solar farms, you know, they dohave somewhat of an effect on
their environment a little bit,the way the the sunlight's being
absorbed, but it's often not amajor impact on the on the area.
One of the things we found isthat, solar panels actually do
better when they have, activelygrow growing plants underneath
of them because of thetranspiration the
(12:20):
evapotranspiration and thecooling effect under the panel
helps increase the electricalefficiency of the panel itself.
Wow. By keeping keeping them alittle cooler, it actually
improves the output of thepanels.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
That's really cool. I love that little ecology going
on in the interactions. That'sawesome.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
The Scapes project is is a multi state project, and so
we're doing it here in Illinois,but we also have partners in at
Colorado State and at Universityof Arizona. And so we've got 3
different climates that areworking with this and then we're
all focusing on some differenttypes of plants. So the Arizona
group, very sun heavy and sunintensive environment with low
(13:02):
moisture. A lot of the farmersthere are getting irrigation
restrictions on them so they'relooking at at ways that they can
conserve water by having shade.So that makes whatever
irrigation they have go lastlonger and high value crops like
tomatoes and some of the leafygreen crops tend to are showing
(13:24):
an affinity for having at leastpartial shade during the day and
then production's much better inthose.
The Colorado site's looking athigh value crops and at
grasslands for, cattle grazingor sheep grazing. And then at
Illinois, we're we're trying tolook at at row crop field crops
that were more common here inIllinois.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
That's really cool looking at 3 different climates
and, agricultural needs as well.The oh, one time sometimes you
hear, like, oh, it worked overin this state. Why can't it work
at this state? Well, there's awhole different as we as we
stated earlier, United States isbig. It's got a lot of different
climates going on with it.
So comparing them and havingsimilar, if not the same, ways
(14:06):
of collecting that data and andunifying, is going to be so
helpful for advancing, this thiseffort in the future to, really
kinda see how we can makeagrivoltaics work for our ever
needing energy.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
We have a team of of just the some of the top notch
plant physiology people, acrossthe country that are part of
this project. And so at whatwe've learned amongst the
different plants, are are thingsthat help us understand things
maybe we're not even growing,but they would act similar, so
that they have a we know thatthey have a similar biology to
(14:45):
one another. Peppers andtomatoes, very similar. Other
crops that are are closelyrelated that we would expect to
act similar to some of our testcrops. So we're hoping to be
able to evaluate even a widerrange of things than we're
actually having in ourexperiments and be able to make
recommendations.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Tell me again this is just me going backwards. What
what are the typical solarcontracts that producers are
being approached with? Is it didyou say 10 years? 20. 20.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Often 20. That's generally considered to be the
the life cycle of of the solarpanel.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
The panel? Okay. Dennis, you talked about scapes.
You know, we've mentioned scapeshere and there and what, you're
that you're involved with thatgrant project. Tell us a little
bit about just or just give usan overview of of the project as
a whole and, you know, what areits primary objectives.
You've talked a little bit aboutit, but, just dive a little bit
(15:40):
deeper, I guess, into escapes.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
You would think we might know more about solar than
than we than we do, so we wehave a team that's that's
working on a model of predictingsolar efficiency for different
kinds of panels any place on theglobe. So you could build you
know, you can say we're gonnaput this kind of panel at this
latitude and longitude, how muchenergy can it produce? So it's
(16:06):
made out of this material, ithas a certain type type of
tracking on whether it followsthe sun or is fixed in place,
and so how much energy. So ifwe're gonna try to make a
decision on on profit, we needto have that total amount of
electricity potential that wecould get paid for. So we need
be able to do that.
Then we need to be able tounderstand what's the response
(16:29):
from the plants when they'rebeing grown in in partial shade.
Because if you look at theground underneath a solar farm,
you're gonna have a shadow thatmoves throughout the day and
you'll have areas that aregetting morning sun and and
midday sun and then latey lateafternoon shade and just the
(16:49):
opposite as well, as well asareas that pretty much get solid
shade, a narrow area under thepanels that get shade 100% of
the time and then if its panelsare spaced wide enough, you'll
get an area in the middle thatgets full sun. And so,
understanding how the plantsreact to those multitude of
environments is is reallyimportant. So that's why we've
(17:10):
got this team of plantphysiologists are working on
that. We've got a team ofeconomists that are tying some
of these things together.
So we can build a decisionsupport tool that would help
farmers understand, if I wannado this profitably, I could
pace, you know, how wide would Ihave to place the panels to be
able to farm, how much base do Ineed, and how much is that gonna
(17:31):
cost me in electricity return?Or if I squeeze the panels
together and I get more shade,how much yield is that gonna
cost from different plants? Andif it's gonna cost you know, if
it's not gonna do well with thiscrop, is there a plant that
would do better in thisenvironment? So that's what
we're trying to to build adismiss decision support
network, that looks at all thesedifferent phases that helps the
(17:54):
developers understand and thefarmers understand as well.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Yeah. And, I mean, like you said, these are their
livelihoods. This is this is a adecision that's, like,
determining how much moneythey're gonna make or how much
they can, how they canresponsibly use the land as well
and take care of of of that,that stewardship of that land
that, they're working on. And sohow are the farmers in the local
(18:21):
communities being involved inthe project?
Speaker 3 (18:23):
With our Ag Econ group, they are doing a lot of
focus groups with industry andwith farmers to try to get
information from them abouttheir perceptions of solar solar
and agrivoltaics and what theywhat they would like to see
happen. And so they're beingincluded in this process. We've
(18:44):
been actively, recruiting peopleto be part of our stakeholder
group and to participate in someof our focus groups to help,
help inform our decisions. Withone of our groups of farmers, we
worked with Illinois Farm Bureauto put together a group of
farmers that sat down with ourour our team and and discussed
(19:05):
spent an evening discussingagrivoltaics. One of the quotes
out of there is, was that we'refarmers.
We wanna produce something. Andjust handing over their land to
somebody else, and get eventhough it's a big check, that
it's it's taking some part oftheir identity away from. So,
you know, we're and we'regetting a lot of, of the input
(19:26):
from the solar developers aswell. They have concerns about
security of their sites, aswell. So there's a a there are
trade offs there.
Solar developers are moreinterested in agrivoltaics if
there's the option that it'sgonna give them access to more
acres, because we have areaswhere they're putting
communities are putting inordinances that, would require a
(19:48):
certain amount of agrivoltaicson solar development, and that's
another the whole whole publicpolicy angle is another thing.
Under the current economicsituations, what I can tell you
is that the price being paid forthe electricity is really high,
and it really dominates the theside. So that ag has a hard time
(20:12):
competing with that in a on alevel playing field, but if
incentives go away or if theaccess to land goes away, that
there's restrictions, then,agrivoltaics, play can come in
and play a better bigger role,and, we need to know how to do
that and make it profitable.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
So messy, but also like
Speaker 3 (20:35):
It's complicated. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Complicated and messy, but I I like why it's
messy because it's not justabout the dollar value, It's
about the people and theconnection to the land and what,
people want out of their ownlandscape and and their
livelihoods and how they wannaearn their money. And I think
that's really fascinating andinteresting and part of the
(20:58):
human experience that is,oftentimes an excluded one when
we're talking about making bigmoney choices. So I think it's
it's so important that we'rehaving this conversation and
that that conversation ishappening on this national
level, in a really, really coolway. So I love that you all are
having those those actualconversations with farmers
because, I mean, that's whatextension's all about, right,
(21:19):
being in the community. And soit's it's so good to see that
that's, like, built into a bigproject like this.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
It really makes you think about those connections to
the land and how strong theyreally are, and I don't know.
It's it's neat to hear hear thatfrom you, Dennis, that that, the
farmers are thinking about theiridentity and their legacy,
right, that they're passing onto the next, generation and what
they what they wanna pass on.Well, I'm sure when you get into
(21:47):
those rooms with, farmers andproducers that they have a lot
of, things to say, have how it'smaybe not gonna work. So in
these conversations, what aresome of the technical challenges
maybe in the research that youguys are doing that where you
are implementing theseagrivoltaics systems. What are
(22:08):
the challenges that you'reseeing in the research and the
and, you know, in response tosome of the feedback you're
getting from the farmers?
Speaker 3 (22:14):
You know, Illinois, the predominant crops are are
corn and soybeans, wheat, andwheat, to a lesser degree, but
corn is is quite a challenge andunder the solar panels, and the
cost of a field that would besuitable for corn production
might be somewhat prohibitivebecause of the additional height
(22:35):
that the panels would have to beraised. So that's that that's a
little bit of a challenge. Alsobeing the fact that we need the
panels generally, if they're notgonna be high enough, then they
need to be able to rotate sothat they're completely vertical
so that it can give the maximumamount of space to get equipment
through there. The other thingis farmers like their large farm
(22:56):
equipment and don't are aren'treally excited about getting
smaller farm equipment to getthrough a an agrivoltaics field.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
And invested a lot in their farm equipment too.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
We've invested a lot. And one of the things we're
looking at with our experimentthis this year from what we've
kinda learned is we're lookingwe've added more forages into
our our experiments, so thatwe're looking at hay production.
The hay equipment's generallynot as large as the the tillage
(23:28):
and planting equipment that alot of the big farmers have, So
it would be a fit in thesealleyways between the solar
panels much much easier. Theother thing is being involved in
digital agriculture and workwith, autonomous vehicles and
robots. There's some really coolfarm equipment that's being
developed, that's autonomous,can run 24 hours a day, that is
(23:51):
a smaller form factor.
So they be it might be bettersuited, in these solar fields
because it it would woulddoesn't need to be as big
because it can run all by itselffor long periods of time.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Yeah. I was just gonna ask the question. Are some
of these small that smallerequipment that you were talking
about on the market right now?
Speaker 3 (24:12):
There's some amazing stuff in in Europe right now
than some of the midmanufacturers our manufacturers
over there, that have built someof these, multipurpose,
autonomous machines that you canfit a variety of implements on
this robot, that can do tillage,planting, harvesting all on the
same basic same frame.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Makes me think of, there's a Magic School Bus
episode, the new one, in whichthey talk about, like, they call
it ghost farm, and the kids,like, approach it. Farm.
There's, like, ghosts drivingthe tractors, and there's, like,
these crazy things, and, andit's it's a digger digital
agriculture farm. So they haveall these, new technology to,
(24:53):
it's a it's a test site thatthey end up visiting. Very, very
cool.
I encourage everyone to check itout. It's great outreach for the
youth, to to figure out, and Ifound it very fascinating too
from my point of view as well.Well, we talked about, the
people part and the technicalpart, and so let's talk a little
bit about the economics. Let'stake a minute. So how does the
economic viability ofagrivoltaics compare to
(25:18):
traditional farming and thenjust, like, stand alone
projects?
You were saying, you know, it'sit, can we combine them to kinda
meet in the middle somewhere?How does that work?
Speaker 3 (25:26):
So like I have, with the current, market environment,
and, large, corporations thatneed carbon credits and need
energy or energy credits. Sothey're investing a lot of money
in funding solar farms that canmake them greener. And so that
(25:47):
competition
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Greener in, like, the environmental sense. If my first
thought was greener in, like,the y'all, this is an audio
podcast, but I just meant, like,somebody's symbol with my
fingers.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
So they have environmental goals to meet, and
so they're often investing andand putting money in behind
these solar farms and to topromote their development. And
so that and the and the price ofthe subsidies for the
electricity off of these farmsare, substantial and they're
(26:21):
slowing probably slowing thecost a little bit or the
economics in favor of a 100%solar, but even with a 100%
solar farms, that doesn't meanwe couldn't do the the grazing
or the pollinator plantings. Sothose are are still some options
even under those situations, butif things change in the future
(26:44):
or we have regulations orincentive other incentives that
come in through public policy.We wanna be able to to meet
those needs with goodinformation about how we can how
we can blend more ag into thatsystem and do it profitably.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
I was I was think I could guess maybe you probably
answered this, but I wasthinking about retrofitting. You
know, if you already have asolar installation in there, I
guess it just it would depend onmaybe your structure of your
contract or what you can andcan't do on that or maybe even
provide a negotiating stancesince the solar company has to
(27:23):
maintain that, you know, theunderneath of the of the solar
panels. Maybe you have now a anew negotiating point where you
could introduce some of thatstuff if you've already put in a
solar installation. Would thatbe right?
Speaker 3 (27:38):
No. It depends on who the owner of the the site is. If
it's if it's a large utilitycompany, if it's utility scale,
you're probably not gonna getvery far. If it's community
scale, and there's a local boardthat's managing the site, then
they might be more in put morefavorably on local people
getting in there and and makingthe site more environmentally
(28:01):
friendly for the neighborhoodand the community. And then if
we're actually down to the sizeof a business or residential
scale, if they've got a smallset of solar panels that they've
got there on the farm, think ofthe shade as an asset and what
can you use that shade forrather than just grass and think
(28:23):
of ways that maybe there arecertain you should put part of
your garden under that solarpanel because there's some
things that are gonna do goodthere.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Mhmm. Interesting. Just allowing us to think of it
a little bit differently. Yes.Well, the little people, we're
talking about Magic School Bus.
Dennis, Throughscapes, tell usabout the efforts to educate
youth about agrivoltaics.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
One of the old extension models is if you wanna
teach the adults, you you startwith their kids.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Your original extension model, Dennis.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
I know. I wasn't there then, Abbotneil. But
Speaker 2 (28:59):
I do a history of extension. I find it
fascinating. And, yeah, 4 hclubs, corn clubs is what they
call them.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
Clubs in the Coopon County, my home county.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Really? Thevis, you weren't there just a couple
years later.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Yes. The Georgia Atwell Corn Clubs. But so with
the agrivoltaics project, we, aspart of the the grant, have an
education team that worked witha game company to build an
agrivoltaics farming game. It'scalled My Agrivoltaics Farm.
It's available for both Appleand Android.
(29:34):
So you can go to the app storesand download this, and you can
start off with a little farm,and start growing your crops.
And as you make money and andmeet the goals of the game, you
can add solar panels to yourfarm, and you can change your
mix of crops. There are someguidelines in there that'll help
you figure out which crops aregonna do better under the solar
(29:54):
panels. And as you make moremoney, you can upgrade your
farm, get better solar panelsthat track, and you can get more
acres. You can buy a tractor,different things.
You can upgrade your farmsteadso that you get rewarded as
you're going through the gameand you get to see your profits
(30:18):
accumulate based on the cropsand having the solar panels as
well. So it's it's a fun fungame. It was built with junior
eye students in mind, and we'vetested it at some of the science
centers or the children'smuseums, Indianapolis and Saint
Louis and had really goodresponse from there. And,
(30:41):
eventually, we'll have somekiosks at those sites where kids
can log in and and try out thegame. But you can do it now.
It's available for download andand also if you're a teacher,
they're in the process creatinga teacher's manual to go with it
so it could be used forclassroom educational activities
as well.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
That's cool. It's almost like a it's almost like a
mini decision support tool.Right, Dennis? It's like the the
pilot.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
And our our crop physiologists had input into the
the how the crops respond torainfall and sun and shade. So
we've built weather models intothe game as well so you can
check the forecast to see if ifirrigating today is gonna be a
good idea or not.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
I'm so excited. Middle school youth, it's
designed for me. I'm so excited.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
I have wasted it oh, not wasted. I've invested it
quite
Speaker 1 (31:39):
in playing it as well. So Research. Right?
Speaker 3 (31:43):
We got a little contest within the team on who,
who can make the most money inthe game. So
Speaker 1 (31:50):
So you can upgrade your solar panels too? Is that
what you said?
Speaker 3 (31:54):
Yes. Yeah. So you can start off with just standard,
simple fixed panels and you canmount you can get the tracking
mounts so that they they,produce more electricity per
cycle.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
So in your in your Scapes real life project, do you
guys do studies on all thedifferent models of solar panels
that are on the market? Like, do
Speaker 3 (32:16):
you have Yes. Yes. So we we can tell you if it's a
tracking panel, how much we'dexpect it to be able to produce
electricity wise versus a fixedmount, a single track versus a
double track system that pivotslike a sunflower and just tracks
the sun all day long versus justchanging the tilt east to west.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Yeah. Cool.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Well, we have our last question before our little
everyday observation, and, thisis our climate change season. So
when it comes to, you know,agrivoltaics, scapes, project,
things like that, do you haveany everyday tips for us when it
comes to climate change?
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Recent experience is I was just gone for a week, and
while I was gone, my smart mysmart thermostat on my house
sampled, and knew I was away.And it changed the entire
thermostat settings for ourhouse while we were gone. And so
I've been fine tuning it sincethen to try to get that. So
(33:18):
renewable energy and energyefficiency, are things that that
we can all work on.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Awesome. Okay. To finish today, Dennis, we do this
thing on each of our podcastwhere we share our everyday
observation, where we highlightsomething mundane or simple,
normal, in our environment thatwe see, but is actually really
interesting and really cool. SoI'm gonna ask Abigail first to
(33:47):
share her everyday observationthat you have witnessed the last
few weeks or so.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Yeah. So I have a little bunny nest somewhere in
the vicinity of my yard. Ihaven't found it yet. And, my
children are obsessed with it.My mother came and named one of
the bunnies hot dog, which isthe most comical name I can
think of for a bunny.
I don't know why. And so hot dogand his buddies, one of which is
(34:16):
called Taco. I don't know why wechose food, but that's what we
went for. And I was like, I usedto hate bunnies. They still they
kind of frustrate me when theyeat my new plants, but what I've
noticed is that my violets arenot as much of a problem this
year, and they're eating all theviolet leaves around.
And I'm like, you know what? I'mgood with you. So I am happy for
(34:39):
that little bit of naturalcontrol going on in my yard, a
little ecology happening in mylandscape, play animals eating
plants, and providing a littlebit of entertainment. So I think
that's pretty cool, and I'm I'mintrigued to see, right now
they've really just been eatingmy weeds. So I'm like, what is
growing differently, And what'sgrowing better, and how can I
(35:03):
keep that going?
So I'm curious to kind of keep alittle bit more stock of of what
they're eating and noticing thatso that way I can kind of
encourage that kind of grazing.So that's that's my everyday
observation.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Awesome. I too have baby bunnies in my under my
cucumber vines. They seem tolike the shade underneath there,
I guess. They're not doing anydamage, but yeah. Dennis, do you
have a an everyday observation?
Speaker 3 (35:32):
Just a couple weekends ago, we had a my fam I
had my family all got together,my my 2 kids and and my 2
granddaughters, we rented acabin near Starved Rock, and did
a lot of hiking and, some of thecanyons there at Starved Rock.
And just, watching those 18month old and 3 year old
(35:54):
granddaughters experience thethe nature there, was, was
really fun and just, made mehappy.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Yeah. That's how old my kids are, and it's a magical
time. Bugs are amazing to them.For sure.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Alright, Amy. I'll share my absurd everyday
observation. I mine's not reallyeveryday because I actually got
to go on a trip. I told you,Abigail, that I was going on
this trip, but I recentlyreturned from, Wisconsin, and I
got to go to Aldo Leopold'sshack in, outside Baraboo,
(36:27):
Wisconsin and sit inside theshack and sit in the place
where, you know, Leopold madeall of his observations in on
his property in the Sand Countyarea in Wisconsin. Not Sand
County itself.
It's Salt County, but in theSand County region of Wisconsin.
(36:48):
Got to see, you know, pines thathim and his family had planted,
you know, in the thirties andforties. And, now it's time to
read a Sand County almanacalmanac again, because now I
have seen and witnessed thethings that he had witnessed.
And so those stories and thoseessays are gonna, you know, take
(37:09):
on a whole whole newperspective. So that was kind of
one of my bucket list items.
So it wasn't really an everydayobservation. It was a bucket
list observation, but it wasreally neat and inspiring.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Ila, you, I read the May Watts' book and her she's
from Illinois, and a lot of herobservations are around. And
then if you read her secondedition, she, like, comes back
and visits those sites, like, somany years later. And there was
one on the, the dunes, And itwas really interesting to hear
so you can, like, go visit thosesites. So, yeah, those kind of,
(37:42):
like, visiting the naturalistobservation book sites are just
very, very cool and, just a wayto kind of take in nature a
little bit deeper.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Yeah. Connect. And then Yeah. Oh, for sure. Well,
this has been fun.
Thank you again, Dennis, forsharing your knowledge on
agrivoltaics. We reallyappreciate you being here. I
can't wait to go download theapp, play some, my agrivoltaics
farm. Right? That's the app.
(38:14):
We'll have to put that in theshow notes. I know my nephew
will be super excited aboutthat. So this has been another
episode on the EverydayEnvironment podcast. Check us
out next week where we talk toSue Gasper and Jamini Galsot
about food waste and compostingand climate change.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
This podcast is a University of Illinois Extension
production, hosted and edited byAbigail Garfalo, Aaron Garrett,
and Amy Lefringhaus.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
University of Illinois Extension.
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