May 28, 2025 • 37 mins
Inspired by The Diary of a CEO’s viral episode with CIA officer Andrew Bustamante, this powerful conversation explores how deep presence and ethical influence can transform your leadership. Dr. Maggie Augustyn, Dr. Chad Johnson, and Regan Robertson share personal reflections and real practice applications for using emotional intelligence to lead with integrity.
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Episode Transcript
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Regan Robertson (00:03):
Did you know that manipulation and motivation
are two sides of the same coin?
How do you know if you're manipulatingsomebody or you're motivating somebody?
That was the question posed on.
Diary of a CEO podcast, which is alittle, uh, podcast that I listen to.
(00:25):
I'm a fervent podcast listener as I ampodcast host, and I asked my faithful,
talented, brilliant co-hosts, Dr.
Chad Johnson and Maggie Augustine, ifthey would give this podcast to listen.
Uh, moments 2 0 7 on diaryof A CEO, uh, on this topic.
And then let us have a react to it.
(00:45):
And they obliged kindly becausethey're the best of friends.
And we are here to dive intothis and discuss this and how
it shows up in the denim world.
Maggie and Chad.
Hi.
Dr. Chad Johnson (00:55):
Hello.
How you, how are you been?
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (00:59):
I'm doing great.
And when it comes to this ideaof motivating and manipulating,
I, I mean yes, of course it'spresent in the dental world.
It's interesting.
Maybe it's even present as we're.
You know, considering treatmentplanning with our patients, but it's,
we're also personally affected, um,by it in our, in our personal lives.
Right.
How does it play out?
(01:20):
Um, they do a, a short stint about lyingabout whether or not we're being lied
to, and then they, they talk about,um, teaching, teaching how to lie.
What did you think about that, Chad?
Dr. Chad Johnson (01:36):
First off, in general, I didn't know what
to make of the episode much.
I think my awarenessof that is really low.
So, um, but what I thought about,uh, he did mention that, uh.
They need to have liars in the firstplace for the best, CIA, um, you know,
(01:58):
manipulators or whatever, that they needto be inherent liars in the first place
to be able to get them to be better liars.
I. Um, and so that's one thingthat I picked up on was that, uh,
you know, it's just like, well,not everyone's good at this.
And the people who are all fidgetyand, and stuff like that, they're
easy to tell, but you almost have toget to know people and ask questions
(02:20):
and know what their baseline norm is.
It's almost like with us taking bloodpressures when we don't need it.
So that way when we do need it, wecan tell that things are off, uh,
that a lot of people don't get to see.
But that's a tangible thing wherewe're checking physiologically into
people with their pulse and their bloodpressure and stuff like that to be able
to see, you know, like what's normal.
(02:42):
So that way you can tell whenit's deviated from normal.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (02:46):
So, so what they're saying is you can't really tell if
somebody is lying by just looking at them,
Dr. Chad Johnson (02:50):
right?
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (02:51):
You have to kind of know them to then.
Figure out whether they're lying andcompare it to their baseline behavior.
Like this idea of, well, if you're lookingto the left, that means that you're
engaging the creative part of your brain,and that must mean that you're lying.
What they're saying is that.
In the Western culture, we have atimeline that goes from left to right.
(03:14):
And if you're thinking back topast events, the reason why you're
looking to the left is becausetimeline starts in the left.
So if you're thinking backto your childhood, your eyes
are gonna go to the left.
'cause you're thinking in the waythat the timeline is, is is that
that's how we understand time, right.
Starting in the leftand going to the right.
Reagan, what was it about thispodcast that, that got you magnetized?
(03:34):
'cause you and I talked about ita little bit and I, I, I mean.
My, my juices were flowing right whenyou and I started talking about it.
Regan Robertson (03:40):
Well, for, for context, I, it, it's, um, Steven Bartlett who's
interviewing former Covert CIA officer.
Like what?
CIA officer, by the way, isn't covert,I would assume they're all covert.
Andrew Busta Manti, I thinkis how you say his last name.
I've actually seen him all over tiktoksand social media in little viral
clips and didn't realize because itwasn't a. A video podcast that I was
(04:04):
listening to that that's the gentleman.
So if you, if you Google him, youwill likely have seen him come
up in your reels or, or whatnot.
And, um, what immediately grabwhat grabbed my attention was
this concept that motivation andmanipulation are part of the same.
Um.
Strategies.
So, and, and so for me itreally came down to intent.
(04:27):
Uh, what is your intent to, uh, to deceiveor, or to, um, you know, or to inspire.
And I, I thought that wasa really, I haven't heard.
It presented that way before and I thoughtthat his RICE acronym was extremely,
(04:47):
uh, easy to understand and I was ableto apply it in my own life to how I
use it, and it made me think deeper.
Dr. Chad Johnson (04:56):
Um, wait a minute.
Rice acronym for the listeners.
Why don't we share what we learned?
That that got a laugh.
Wait a minute.
Regan Robertson (05:08):
Those are the four areas that you can tap into in order
to, uh, influence somebody to dowhat it is that you want them to do.
And I think lying was the precursor tothat because if you are manipulating,
or if you're being covert, itsounds to me like you're gonna use
this acronym, uh, you know, uh.
(05:30):
In a, in a sort of devious way.
And not to skip over the lying portionof it though, Maggie, uh, I, I was
quite surprised when he was talkingabout eye eye movement and you can't
always tell, um, by somebody's eyemovement that, that blew my mind as well.
And then, uh, also.
The watching for, fordisruptions in, in patterns.
(05:51):
Like, like if the body language is showingup super confident, but the way someone's
speaking does not show up confident.
Those are some of the ways, and I thinkabout, uh, I think about sitting in the
dental chair, for example, and I thinkabout the time when I was nodding my
head yes and, and telling the doctorI was gonna go through with treatment.
And in my head it wasa, it was a definite no.
(06:11):
There was, there was, if.
I think if this CIA officer was lookingat me, he probably could have freeze
framed me and explained, you know,her body language is saying this,
but, but her words are saying this,like, there must be a disconnect.
So, so I, I think.
Teaching people to lie using liesin one, in one way or another.
I think everybody lies to an extent.
(06:31):
And I think this, this to an extent,everybody lies doesn't every Yeah,
I was gonna say, everybody lies.
And so this acronym, rice isthese four areas and it's, uh,
reward, ideology, coercion and ego.
And the idea is you play to oneor all of these different, um.
(06:54):
Strategies or, or influence levers, ifyou will, to, um, to appeal to that person
to win honorable favor, to get them todo what it is that you want them to do.
Dr. Chad Johnson (07:05):
And you don't necessarily have to manipulate
to, um, involve yourself into.
Into the person's rice,uh, you know, primaries and
secondaries and stuff like that.
But, you know, if, if, 'cause they weretalking about if, if they themselves
are going to, you know, I want tobe a good American and go vote.
(07:27):
Well, you don't have to coercethem to go vote because they are
already believing to go vote.
So like your job's done.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (07:35):
And so, so this RICE acronym is actually
used a lot in television.
There's a show that I really liked,which was Madame's Secretary and one of
the main characters is a CIA operator.
And so they were trying to use thatand they actually named them, um,
they were trying to get one of.
One of the people to do whatever they, youknow, to appeal to him, to, to get them
(07:59):
to work for the United States government.
But what was interesting is he asked,um, the CIA guy to rate these, right?
And, and so which one is themost effective in getting someone
to do what you want them to do?
And I think before he gave the answer.
I was thinking that coercion wasgoing to be the most powerful, right?
(08:21):
Like really, I, I, I did like, soyesterday we had Amy Wood come in
to do HIPAA and cybersecurity in ouroffice, and she talked to us about
TikTok and how TikTok is recordingeverything, and it freaked me out.
I've never had TikTok on my phone.
So I'm like, great.
Now everybody is, is, is listening to me.
So like now, I, I mean, I don'thave a whole lot of secrets.
(08:42):
Most, most people know all my secrets,but, but if there is a secret somewhere
out there and I've spoken it on thephone, then somebody has it, right?
So now they're going to want, now they'regoing to get me to do something based
on this one recording and I'll do kindof anything to keep my family safe.
Let's say if there's a secret of me doingsomething that I shouldn't be doing, and.
(09:04):
So, so I thought that, that,that was going to be number one.
And because that's what yousee in the movies, right?
They'll get you to do, they'll get you toblow up a building because they're, you
know, holding something over your head.
Um, I. But, but he, but he said thatthat was not the, the most powerful way
to get someone to do what you wantedto do, and that the movies are the ones
(09:27):
that are projecting that narrative.
Um, Chad, do you remember?
Dr. Chad Johnson (09:34):
It's the most dramatic, it's the, it is
Dr. Maggie Augustyn: the most dramatic right? (09:36):
undefined
Although, I mean, look, if, if you'vegot my kid, that certainly is going
to be more powerful than you're hold.
If you're holding onto my secretof some notes that I passed
onto, you know, um, I don't know.
Something that I was, not, that I wasdoing that I wasn't supposed to be doing.
Sure.
Um, do you remember there the right how?
(09:57):
I don't
Dr. Chad Johnson (09:58):
remember.
So my guess is gonna be the ego.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (10:01):
Okay.
Reagan, do you remember them?
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Oh yeah, I, I remember them too.
Like, they're, they're
Regan Robertson (10:08):
in my heart.
Go ahead.
It's classic StoryBrand.
So I think you asked a little bitago why this was so intriguing to me.
And it's classic, it's classic StoryBrandand it's also classic, uh, skip
Miller, uh, who did M three learning.
And so it's, it's sales trainingand it's story training.
And so it's.
It's very easy.
It's, it's mission based and it'sunderstanding someone's deeper why.
And I like what you were saying aboutTikTok, Maggie, but it is, um, ideology
(10:33):
number one, what a person believes.
Think about the religious wars.
Think about what we hold near and dearto our hearts at the closest core level.
You can get somebody to dosomething when they are involved
in a mission that they believe in.
So their beliefs are the biggest.
Strongest driver.
Um, I believe that ego was number two.
And, uh, and the, the examplegiven was Mother Theresa, which I
(10:56):
absolutely loved because I don't thinkof ego as necessarily a bad thing.
Um, when I think of ego personally,I think of what, how does that person
wanna be perceived to the world?
Like, what do they want to be known for?
I don't think that that'snecessarily a good or a bad thing,
but it's important to understand.
W how that person wants to be perceived.
And I use this in marketing all thetime because I think of the person I'm
(11:17):
marketing to as the hero of the story.
So what are their core beliefs, andthen what do they wanna be perceived as?
That is their transformation.
We wanna hit that.
And then number three is reward.
And that's do this, get this, that'swhere the free trips, you know,
come, come to the conference and beentered for a raffle to round trip
to Hawaii tickets or something.
(11:38):
That's the third.
And then coercion is actually the last.
And so I'm, I'm surprised that you reallydid think that coercion was first, but he,
Andrew said most people in Hollywood, likethey often, they often, um, mess it up.
Yeah.
But once, once you threaten someone.
To that extent with maybe theblackmail or, um, whatever.
It's, you can do at once, butthey're never gonna trust you again.
(12:00):
So if you've got a, a long-term mission,which I assume, you know, if you're in
the ccia a you probably have missions thatare years long in the making, then you've,
you've gotta play a much longer game.
So coercion is the weakest of them.
Yeah.
Dr. Chad Johnson (12:13):
And regarding that, when I think about, um.
Ego and I think about false humilityas one example where people,
when he was talking about, youknow, regardless of whether it's.
Proud or humble, you know,or a hundred other emotions.
Right?
You know, that, that when people do thefalse humility thing, like sometimes
(12:36):
they're like, well, I just, I think itwas, you know, I'm just not that good
at it, but like, I just tried and,you know, it's really a team effort.
And, but we, I mean, we knocked itoutta the park, but it was, it was
in spite of me because it was justamazing and, and stuff like that.
I'm just like, people like.
Uh, they almost seem to go outta their wayto, because they're, they're getting to
(12:58):
frame in the compliment, they're gettingto frame how they want to be viewed.
Regan Robertson (13:03):
Yes.
Dr. Chad Johnson (13:05):
So it goes along that Mother Theresa line, even
though Mother Theresa was doingwonderful things for, you know, the
orphanage, this and that and whatever.
But then, you know, like, but, butagain, she had a view that she was.
Portraying and wanted to be seen as doing.
It wasn't, um, it wasn'thidden out of sight.
(13:25):
I mean, Jesus in the NewTestament talks about that.
Don't let the right left handknow what the right hand is doing.
It's just like it, there should be a,a hidden nature to the, the goodness of
what you're doing, which is also tough.
'cause when people say, for example,you know, when they're like, you
know, churchy people don't donateas much as, as unc churchy people.
And it's just like, no,what's recorded isn't.
(13:48):
Isn't as visible about what churchypeople might do versus UNC churchy
people that are like, Hey, I'mgonna put this on my tax form.
I did this and that because it's allabove the board, and what's it to me?
And then, but like my wife and Italk about this where it's just
like, I mean, there's a lot ofhidden stuff that won't get recorded.
About stuff that people do for otherpeople and, um, uh, you know, that
(14:12):
doesn't get counted towards, you know,if the IRS is trying to figure out
who's more generous, you know, uh,churchy people or unchurched people.
It's just one example where I'm just like,uh, I don't think that I, there's some
kind of bias there that actually leans itto be more neutral in my opinion than, uh,
than, you know, what, um, uh, reality is.
(14:33):
So.
Regan Robertson (14:35):
I think it's interesting when we talk public and private, there's
um, uh, I don't know if Skip Millercoined term three levels of why, but I
pay attention to three levels of why.
And, uh, when I'm interviewing people ordeveloping a brand, especially, uh, there
is that public persona, which to me is theego, is how people want to be perceived,
and that's the suit that we all put on.
(14:55):
Um, Maggie is an enigmato me and I, and this.
Particular podcast and why I brought itto you both was because in, uh, in that
episode, Andrew explains that there's apublic life of a person, a private life
of a person, and then there is a secretlife and everybody has all three things.
Uh, I've known for years abouttechnology listening to people,
(15:19):
and, um, you know, that, that.
Things could be recorded and,and it definitely puts you
at a more heightened sense.
And, and I didn't understand though,if that's human nature to have a secret
side and a private side, and then yourpublic side, why you would, why you
would hold it so closely to yourself.
For example, uh, you know, your publiclife is, is how you look on camera.
(15:40):
For example, if you dress up and you wannawear a suit, private life is just those,
those few things inside the people whoreally know you, uh, know that you eat.
You know, you eat cookiesin bed or something.
And then the secret life is,you know, maybe specific traumas
that you've suffered that youdon't want people to know about.
Um, something that could beconsidered shameful that you
don't wanna bring to light.
(16:00):
And Maggie.
Is like passionately running towards,uh, sharing private to the verge
of secret even I would say, uh,she just is saying, I'm gonna strip
myself bare for the world to see.
And and that to me is, um, fascinating,Maggie, that you, that you do that.
(16:21):
And I, I think my, my new puzzleis, is really asking myself, what,
what motivates a person to do that?
And then I'm starting to run.
The RICE acronym, you know, through me.
And I think it gets back to again, um,how we wanna be perceived in the world
and what we wanna accomplish together.
Um, I think that it, it, it mattersAnd so when I interview people, I try
(16:43):
to, uh, ingratiate myself and build aconnection that's genuinely strong enough.
So I understand their privateside, but not their secret side.
So if I'm getting to know someone,I wanna know, um, I wanna know you
with the business suit, often thecasual clothes on so that I can get.
To some of your deeper corelevels of why, because when we're
developing brands, that is essential.
(17:04):
When you talk about authenticmarketing, it's essential, it matters.
That's the, to me, that's wherethe fascia of like human connection
lives and we can build out.
Reward systems and we can play tothe ideology and all of that in our,
in, in the way that we develop brandsand the way that I tell stories
and share messages and whatnot.
(17:24):
But I don't wanna go sofar that I get into secret.
And I think that's where, um, like theCIA, they have to go there and that's
where the blackmail comes into play.
And, and they use it for reallystrong, uh, strong reasons.
And so, but in everydaylife you don't need that.
I don't know.
What did, what did you think Maggie Secret
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (17:44):
is, is, um.
Secret is interesting because whenyou get to that place of secrecy,
you, you be, and, and he said this,you share a bond that is unbreakable.
Right.
And to get to the secret part,you have to share something also.
(18:05):
And.
That's not easy for everybody to do.
And then, and then the other, andthen the other part of it is that
when you share something, there's achance that you're gonna get hurt.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, like there's, you have togive something and then somebody
can take it and, and, um, andthere's a chance for coercion.
(18:28):
Mm-hmm.
Like there's things that Ihave shared with people that
I haven't shared publicly.
And those relationships,those friendships have.
Really been damaged and these peoplecan come back and, and, and knowing
what they know about me, these secrets,I, you know, they can shame me while
(18:48):
I'm on stage from the audience.
Um, and.
And I, I don't know.
Maybe, maybe that's why I'mletting out all, all my secrets.
I don't want anybody holdinganything over me, right?
Like if I let go of all mysecrets, nobody can ever coerce me.
I'll be free.
You know, that's like
Regan Robertson (19:07):
Eminem's tactic.
That was in his rap lyrics that he made.
That was one of his strategieswas I'll make fun of myself.
I will just share my dirty laundry myself,and then you can't use it against me.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (19:17):
Right.
Regan Robertson (19:19):
There,
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (19:20):
there's, there's something very freeing.
And then the other thing that I amtold is that not being able to keep
a secret or not, or, or just airingyour own dirty laundry is a trauma
response that's not entirely healthy.
Um, and I don't knowhow I feel about that.
Uh, to me, letting go of the darkshadows that I have in me has been
(19:43):
very healthy and very healing.
And the, the healthcare providersthat I have around me have confirmed
that, um, stuffing them deep insidewas less healthy than letting them go.
But, but sharing secrets, um, Imean it's, it's, it's a deeper
connection than sleeping with someone.
(20:06):
Um, when you're, when you're able,when, when you're, when you become
that safe space for someone, um, andthey become that safe space for you,
that you're like, you're like almost,I don't know, crossing planes of
consciousness and, and, and multiverse.
You, you can connect in anentirely different level.
(20:26):
That is my experience.
I I, I don't know if the two of you, um,
Dr. Chad Johnson (20:30):
well, I, I would liken it to.
That's why sexuality is one formof intimacy, but intimacy is
greater than sexuality itself.
Um, and no, what you guysare saying resonates with me.
I mean, that secrecy, um,has, um, merit or value to it.
(20:53):
And that, you know, you are,you are allowing that to be.
Um, you, you have to guard that, uh, uh,for who you're, you're trusting and you
can't just inherently trust everyone.
And when you do trust someone, thereis a reward to trusting them and then
them mutually keeping that trust.
(21:17):
So,
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (21:18):
and that doesn't always work out.
Right, because relationships
Dr. Chad Johnson (21:21):
aren't No, which is why we guard secrets.
Otherwise, why don't, why don'twe just make everything public?
And it's like, I don'tknow if that's healthy.
I, I think it's up toeveryone's discretion to.
In this world of, um, it's an experiment,you know, where you, your life gets to be
an experiment where you get to test outwhether you are right or wrong in the end.
(21:45):
And it's messy because we don't knowwhether to trust the people that we
share or don't share everything with.
There could be, there could be anegative consequence to not sharing
and entrusting with someone.
Um, I had a patient.
Yesterday who came in, and I, andI've known him for a long time
(22:06):
as an acquaintance, and I, I, hecame in and I said, you know, so
what, what, what's your concern?
And he said, well, you're the dentist.
Tell me.
And I just thought it was kind of weirdbecause like he was guarded and, you
know, like that, that makes it tough.
And, and all of a sudden thewall went up three bricks high.
Right.
And, you know, and, and it's justlike, oh, you know the, what do you
(22:27):
like, you know, like, help me out.
What, like, what do you want?
You know, like, what,what's concerning you?
Like, let's start at a, a starting point.
Now, if his concern was, I don'twanna bias you, you know, take a
look and tell me what you find.
Fair enough.
But it was just weird the way thathe said it, and it, it did kind
of, uh, uh, put up a wall, um, in,in, in that dynamic right there.
(22:52):
'cause I was just like, uh, like almost
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (22:54):
resentful.
Dr. Chad Johnson (22:56):
Yes.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Like, like, like, yeah. (22:57):
undefined
Like, um, I'm not gonna tellyou this is a test for you.
Dr. Chad Johnson (23:02):
Right.
I, it was just, he said, I've gota few teeth with root canals and
I, I just want 'em all pulled.
I said, okay, are they bothering you?
No, I just don't trust, I don'ttrust, uh, anything I hear anymore.
I just want to get it out.
And I was like, well, according to the,the X-ray that we took, it looks like you
(23:24):
have one tooth with root cannot treatment.
And he goes, Nope, I got more than that.
And so it's just like,all right, this is weird.
You
Regan Robertson (23:32):
know, like all the days go.
He was the dental office.
Do you think he was lying?
Dr. Chad Johnson (23:35):
No.
Okay.
No, I think he was nervous and thiswas his response of, you know, like,
of having, um, un uncomfortabilityto the whole appointment.
You know, this is how uncomfortablepatients are, and so he's gonna
project that into the whole situation.
It's just one example all weeklong, how dentists are not.
(23:59):
You run across people whereyou're like, well, where.
Where is this trust levelgoing to go with patients?
And, and Reagan, I think that's whyyou invited us to listen to this is
figure out, okay, are we being goodclinicians when we listen to our
patients and figure out what's theirmotivation in trying to get healthy
(24:19):
in trying to keep their bill as low aspossible in trying to have as little as
pain as possible, what's their point?
And you know, um, also coercion when.
Every dentist has to choose when apatient says, is this going to hurt?
And you have to think aboutwhether you say, of course it
is, or no, of course it's not.
(24:40):
Or somewhere in between.
Mm-hmm.
Regan Robertson (24:44):
I absolutely love this because I didn't realize
that the po, it's poignant.
It's a poignant point that you bring upbecause already just being a dentist, you
have a boulder that you're pushing uphill.
Just the connotation that'sassociated with dentistry.
But right now in our culture,in the United States especially,
obviously can't speak for everyone.
I'll just speak for myself.
(25:04):
Sometimes I just don't.
Media.
Take the media.
Take media at.
At large and the political landscape.
There are days when I say Idon't know what to believe.
I don't know how to fact check.
I don't understand.
And I believe that that is probably bydesign that that's created that way.
And so I, I have not beforethought of when you have that
subconsciously running in your head.
(25:26):
Then you start applying it tothe other areas of your life, how
much more difficult your job justgot in addition to it being a
challenge and, and yes, absolutely.
How do clinicians build an authenticconnection in a way that's not
manipulative, but instead motivating andencouraging and, uh, you know, in addition
to all the other things that you haveto be including clinically proficient.
(25:49):
Uh, it, it is, it's, it's a challengeright now, and healthcare in general
is a challenge, but that makes it even.
Even more difficult.
Dr. Chad Johnson (25:58):
Yeah.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (25:59):
I really hope that we have a chance to, um, record a
podcast about the challenges of beinga clinician because on one hand we do
have to, it, it is our primary roleand goal to look out for the health of
our patient and to be compassionate.
Um, and the way that.
The profession presents itselfand we knew that we were
(26:21):
going to end up in this place.
We have associates that aregraduating with a ton of debt.
Right, and nobody on this planetcan, can tell me and with, let's
talk about ego on this, right?
And, and maybe ego is not the rightterm, or perhaps reward is a better term.
If we're going to talk about motivation,let's talk about the motivation of the
(26:41):
clinician as they make the decision.
So you have a patient and yourjob is to look for their best
interest, but can you really tell me.
That when you are half a million dollarin debt and don't have the money to make
that enormous mortgage payment on thatdebt, you are not going to be guided by
that mortgage payment to present treatmentto, in some way coerce or motivate.
(27:09):
That patient to put your wordsin a certain way to present the
treatment plan for that patient.
Um, in, in pursuing, in, in,in, in allowing them to shape
their mind to choose onetreatment modality over another.
I mean, how many morearticles can be written?
(27:33):
Not just dental magazines, but inthe publicized media that goes to
the patient saying that naturalteeth are being replaced by,
you know, all on X and implants.
So that instead of placing a coupleof crowns, were were selling $50,000,
(27:55):
60 or $70,000 treatment plants.
The, this is everywhere.
And, and this is the differencebetween motivation and manipulation.
And, and a lot of that rests on our ownintegrity, but we fight that integrity
because of, of the life that we're living.
Also, I mean, this, this issuch a complicated issue.
Regan Robertson (28:16):
This has a lot of, uh, many deep layers to it, right?
'cause you're held to ethical standards.
And so I think if I'm hearingyou well, you're saying even.
If consciously, everyone is saying Yes,we adhere to the ethical standards.
We have integrity.
We understand what that means,but then there might be a
subconscious driver that's.
That's motivating us to, um, tothink a little differently about
(28:40):
how, how treatment is presentedor why treatment is presented.
Dr. Chad Johnson (28:44):
Well, for example, everyone has signed up to get a
driver's license agreeing to obey the.
Civil and traffic laws and everything,but when you need to get your kids
somewhere or you need to get somewhere,that stop sign becomes more of a quick
little, uh, and you know, but you,you have a retired person that's in
(29:06):
front of you and they have all daylong to get to the hardware store.
W
Regan Robertson (29:12):
Oh, you are speaking my town's language right now.
Dad, thank.
Oh, thank you.
Yes.
It's always the hardware store.
Dr. Chad Johnson (29:18):
Yes.
And, and they have to go three timesa day, but, um, ask how I know.
Five
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (29:24):
minutes apart, right?
Dr. Chad Johnson (29:26):
Yeah, exactly.
Ask how I know.
And, but you know, they're driving fiveunder the speed limit and, and so, you
know, it's just like, okay, I guess we'veall agreed to go the speed limit, but.
Then we all kind of go, well, but I meanit's two over, it's five, over it's 10,
whatever your number is, you know, and youwatch people in the neighborhood at times,
(29:46):
you know, where it's just like that.
I don't know if that quite countsas a stop, you know, like that's
gonna need to be more stoppingnext time than, than yielding.
Um, and it goes along that linewhere yes, we have ethics, but.
Uh, but even as people,we all are citizens.
We all have ethics that we're supposedto, you know, drive the, the, you
know, according to the speed limitand this and that, but it's just
(30:08):
like, but we're not perfect at it.
So we all lie, we all, uh, we all lieto the government that we're going to
drive the best we can and we don't.
So it's just anotherexample where we all lie.
We're, we're untrue to a perfect standard.
Regan Robertson (30:26):
Maggie, what's your final thoughts on this?
I, I
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (30:31):
mean, I,
it's a little, we got a little low, right?
We, we got a little low withthe, with, with the lies and the
manipulation and the motivation.
I, I think part of the uplifting partof the podcast is that when you use
the RICE acronym, acronym, right?
Which is reward, um,what was the second one?
(30:53):
Ideology, ideology, coercion and ego.
You can use that for good.
Dr. Chad Johnson (30:58):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (30:59):
You can use that to motivate.
And, um, when he was talking about that,I, I thought about that in my leadership
with my team and how can I use thatto better myself as a leader in the
way that I listen to my team members.
How can I redesign the jobdescriptions that they have?
(31:19):
How can I redesign what they do onan everyday basis to uplift them?
Um.
To redesign the reward system toplay off of their ideologies, to
create an environment in whichthey can find themselves or find
a joy, um, in, in, in serving.
(31:42):
The patience and I, and I think whenyou start to contrast manipulation into
motivation, it, it stops being so dark.
But we, but we do, we, we live,we live in a world that has both,
because you can't see the lightunless you've been in the dark.
You can't appreciate the lightun unless you know, you've,
(32:05):
you, you've been in the mud.
Um.
And, and, and so that, that's how Iwould find the positive spin in it and
continue using the RICE acronym in, in, infinding motivation, both within yourself.
Find, find the times that you areyourself, coercing yourself right
into, into doing some, I don't know,displeasing things are the way that
(32:27):
even you, you, you use self-talk.
Mm-hmm.
Um,
Dr. Chad Johnson (32:32):
mm-hmm.
Regan Robertson (32:33):
I, I, my, I, I thought the whole, the whole episode for me, I
saw it from a positive light for sure.
So, and, and that, again,let's, let's talk about ego.
That plays to my own ego because Idon't think I've ever heard anything
broken down this way on how to motivate.
And my ego wants to beknown as a good leader.
I wanna be seen as a good leader.
I want, I want my team to feellike I have their back and that I
(32:54):
advocate for them, and that I helpthem fulfill their own mission.
So I've got like two.
Two tangibles that I, that I do often.
Three.
I've got three tangibles that I do often.
Wait, what?
Dr. Chad Johnson (33:06):
Four?
Regan Robertson (33:07):
No, I'm just.
Three.
Well, because this is afail and a and a win, right?
So if I, if I show up to a one-on-onewith a team member and I am under a time
crunch or a deadline, basically I havesomething I want to have accomplished and
I put myself in the, the driver's seat,that one-on-one is not gonna go very well.
It's just not.
So what I've learned over the yearsis before I get on that one-on-one,
(33:30):
so before you meet with your team,I ask myself what's in it for them?
So as counterintuitive that as that is,I say what is in it for them and I try
to, to perceive what's in it for them.
For example, uh, yesterdayI called, uh, one of my.
Like an imaging place.
I had to get an X-ray done andthey build the wrong insurance.
So I had to have them switchit to a different insurance.
(33:51):
I called and my daughter was listeningand I, you know, I said hello
and, and explained the situation.
It was handled really easily, andwhen I hung up, my daughter said,
oh, you used like your podcast voice.
And I was like, what do you, Hey,now you use my podcast voice.
And then I said.
That was by intention.
Actually, you know why I, I uptickmy voice was because usually when
people deal with insurance andpatients, they're not very happy.
(34:14):
And I'm already guessing that, thatshe, on the other end of the line,
is gonna wanna be known as beinghelpful, but also not have to deal
with someone who's really cranky.
So I, that's right.
I intentionally uptick my voice.
It wasn't to be manipulative,but it was to hopefully.
Hopefully, you know, have aquick resolution and it, and
it did turn out that way.
Dr. Chad Johnson (34:33):
So framing.
I love it.
Regan Robertson (34:35):
Yeah.
Framing and mirroring, like, yeah, yeah.
Trying, trying to do those, um, thoseelements I think are, are really
important when I'm doing marketing.
So if you, doctor, if you'relistening and you're considering
marketing for your particularpractice, I do the exact same thing.
What is in it for your patient base?
What is it that they want?
(34:56):
Um.
Ultimately, and it's not asdifficult as you think, right?
It really does get down to they wannabe able to eat the foods that they
really love, or they wanna be ableto smile without being embarrassed.
It's not that difficult.
But when you understand that, thatmeans that you're actively listening
to them and the, the messaging and theimagery that you use, um, fall into
(35:16):
place and you're able to, to resonatewith people really, really easy.
I think there was one more,but I already forgot it.
So you get two.
Dr. Chad Johnson (35:30):
Three.
The Cheetos now has a spicy flavor.
What is the habanero Cheetos.
A lot of people like those.
That's the third one.
It's important to know people.
Regan Robertson (35:39):
Perfect.
Well, we hope you got alot out of this today.
We hope you go check out that interviewwith Andrew Bustamante and let us know.
Let us know if it shows up foryou, if you've noticed anything
about yourself and, and whetheror not you, um, are, you know.
You use it for motivating or,or manipulation or maybe both.
Uh, how's it or is itbeing used against you?
(36:01):
I just think it's insightful,especially for any leader listening.
Thanks everybody.
Dr. Chad Johnson (36:10):
Reagan.
I think we might be able to edit thatto where, when you said no, I've got
two things that Yeah, you can just cut.
We can cut that.
No, wait.
Three, four.
Sorry.
Regan Robertson (36:21):
I know, I know.
I can't remember what my, my x-ray story.
My, the, how I use it inmarketing and I, yeah, I don't
remember what the other one was.
Oh, well, it doesn't matter.
Dr. Chad Johnson (36:31):
All right.
You get onto your next call.
Regan Robertson (36:32):
Love you guys.
Dr. Chad Johnson (36:33):
I talk soon.
Regan Robertson (36:34):
She failed.
She failed by the way.
Oh,
Dr. Chad Johnson (36:37):
woo.
Wait.
Regan Robertson (36:40):
I told her, no worries.
Dr. Chad Johnson (36:43):
Oh, it is.
No worries.
Regan Robertson (36:45):
It is No worries.
Dr. Chad Johnson (36:46):
All right.
Yeah.
You should still come home and like that.
You were proud of her and,and like, you know, celebrate.
I'm taking her to crumple
Regan Robertson (36:53):
cookies.
Dr. Chad Johnson (36:54):
That's it.
I was gonna say celebrate eitherway because she was, get sugar.
She was brave to do it.
Regan Robertson (36:59):
Yeah,
Dr. Chad Johnson (36:59):
that's it.
All right, later.
Bye.
Bye.
Did you know that manipulation and motivation
are two sides of the same coin?
How do you know if you're manipulatingsomebody or you're motivating somebody?
That was the question posed on.
Diary of a CEO podcast, which is alittle, uh, podcast that I listen to.
(00:25):
I'm a fervent podcast listener as I ampodcast host, and I asked my faithful,
talented, brilliant co-hosts, Dr.
Chad Johnson and Maggie Augustine, ifthey would give this podcast to listen.
Uh, moments 2 0 7 on diaryof A CEO, uh, on this topic.
And then let us have a react to it.
(00:45):
And they obliged kindly becausethey're the best of friends.
And we are here to dive intothis and discuss this and how
it shows up in the denim world.
Maggie and Chad.
Hi.
Dr. Chad Johnson (00:55):
Hello.
How you, how are you been?
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (00:59):
I'm doing great.
And when it comes to this ideaof motivating and manipulating,
I, I mean yes, of course it'spresent in the dental world.
It's interesting.
Maybe it's even present as we're.
You know, considering treatmentplanning with our patients, but it's,
we're also personally affected, um,by it in our, in our personal lives.
Right.
How does it play out?
(01:20):
Um, they do a, a short stint about lyingabout whether or not we're being lied
to, and then they, they talk about,um, teaching, teaching how to lie.
What did you think about that, Chad?
Dr. Chad Johnson (01:36):
First off, in general, I didn't know what
to make of the episode much.
I think my awarenessof that is really low.
So, um, but what I thought about,uh, he did mention that, uh.
They need to have liars in the firstplace for the best, CIA, um, you know,
(01:58):
manipulators or whatever, that they needto be inherent liars in the first place
to be able to get them to be better liars.
I. Um, and so that's one thingthat I picked up on was that, uh,
you know, it's just like, well,not everyone's good at this.
And the people who are all fidgetyand, and stuff like that, they're
easy to tell, but you almost have toget to know people and ask questions
(02:20):
and know what their baseline norm is.
It's almost like with us taking bloodpressures when we don't need it.
So that way when we do need it, wecan tell that things are off, uh,
that a lot of people don't get to see.
But that's a tangible thing wherewe're checking physiologically into
people with their pulse and their bloodpressure and stuff like that to be able
to see, you know, like what's normal.
(02:42):
So that way you can tell whenit's deviated from normal.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (02:46):
So, so what they're saying is you can't really tell if
somebody is lying by just looking at them,
Dr. Chad Johnson (02:50):
right?
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (02:51):
You have to kind of know them to then.
Figure out whether they're lying andcompare it to their baseline behavior.
Like this idea of, well, if you're lookingto the left, that means that you're
engaging the creative part of your brain,and that must mean that you're lying.
What they're saying is that.
In the Western culture, we have atimeline that goes from left to right.
(03:14):
And if you're thinking back topast events, the reason why you're
looking to the left is becausetimeline starts in the left.
So if you're thinking backto your childhood, your eyes
are gonna go to the left.
'cause you're thinking in the waythat the timeline is, is is that
that's how we understand time, right.
Starting in the leftand going to the right.
Reagan, what was it about thispodcast that, that got you magnetized?
(03:34):
'cause you and I talked about ita little bit and I, I, I mean.
My, my juices were flowing right whenyou and I started talking about it.
Regan Robertson (03:40):
Well, for, for context, I, it, it's, um, Steven Bartlett who's
interviewing former Covert CIA officer.
Like what?
CIA officer, by the way, isn't covert,I would assume they're all covert.
Andrew Busta Manti, I thinkis how you say his last name.
I've actually seen him all over tiktoksand social media in little viral
clips and didn't realize because itwasn't a. A video podcast that I was
(04:04):
listening to that that's the gentleman.
So if you, if you Google him, youwill likely have seen him come
up in your reels or, or whatnot.
And, um, what immediately grabwhat grabbed my attention was
this concept that motivation andmanipulation are part of the same.
Um.
Strategies.
So, and, and so for me itreally came down to intent.
(04:27):
Uh, what is your intent to, uh, to deceiveor, or to, um, you know, or to inspire.
And I, I thought that wasa really, I haven't heard.
It presented that way before and I thoughtthat his RICE acronym was extremely,
(04:47):
uh, easy to understand and I was ableto apply it in my own life to how I
use it, and it made me think deeper.
Dr. Chad Johnson (04:56):
Um, wait a minute.
Rice acronym for the listeners.
Why don't we share what we learned?
That that got a laugh.
Wait a minute.
Regan Robertson (05:08):
Those are the four areas that you can tap into in order
to, uh, influence somebody to dowhat it is that you want them to do.
And I think lying was the precursor tothat because if you are manipulating,
or if you're being covert, itsounds to me like you're gonna use
this acronym, uh, you know, uh.
(05:30):
In a, in a sort of devious way.
And not to skip over the lying portionof it though, Maggie, uh, I, I was
quite surprised when he was talkingabout eye eye movement and you can't
always tell, um, by somebody's eyemovement that, that blew my mind as well.
And then, uh, also.
The watching for, fordisruptions in, in patterns.
(05:51):
Like, like if the body language is showingup super confident, but the way someone's
speaking does not show up confident.
Those are some of the ways, and I thinkabout, uh, I think about sitting in the
dental chair, for example, and I thinkabout the time when I was nodding my
head yes and, and telling the doctorI was gonna go through with treatment.
And in my head it wasa, it was a definite no.
(06:11):
There was, there was, if.
I think if this CIA officer was lookingat me, he probably could have freeze
framed me and explained, you know,her body language is saying this,
but, but her words are saying this,like, there must be a disconnect.
So, so I, I think.
Teaching people to lie using liesin one, in one way or another.
I think everybody lies to an extent.
(06:31):
And I think this, this to an extent,everybody lies doesn't every Yeah,
I was gonna say, everybody lies.
And so this acronym, rice isthese four areas and it's, uh,
reward, ideology, coercion and ego.
And the idea is you play to oneor all of these different, um.
(06:54):
Strategies or, or influence levers, ifyou will, to, um, to appeal to that person
to win honorable favor, to get them todo what it is that you want them to do.
Dr. Chad Johnson (07:05):
And you don't necessarily have to manipulate
to, um, involve yourself into.
Into the person's rice,uh, you know, primaries and
secondaries and stuff like that.
But, you know, if, if, 'cause they weretalking about if, if they themselves
are going to, you know, I want tobe a good American and go vote.
(07:27):
Well, you don't have to coercethem to go vote because they are
already believing to go vote.
So like your job's done.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (07:35):
And so, so this RICE acronym is actually
used a lot in television.
There's a show that I really liked,which was Madame's Secretary and one of
the main characters is a CIA operator.
And so they were trying to use thatand they actually named them, um,
they were trying to get one of.
One of the people to do whatever they, youknow, to appeal to him, to, to get them
(07:59):
to work for the United States government.
But what was interesting is he asked,um, the CIA guy to rate these, right?
And, and so which one is themost effective in getting someone
to do what you want them to do?
And I think before he gave the answer.
I was thinking that coercion wasgoing to be the most powerful, right?
(08:21):
Like really, I, I, I did like, soyesterday we had Amy Wood come in
to do HIPAA and cybersecurity in ouroffice, and she talked to us about
TikTok and how TikTok is recordingeverything, and it freaked me out.
I've never had TikTok on my phone.
So I'm like, great.
Now everybody is, is, is listening to me.
So like now, I, I mean, I don'thave a whole lot of secrets.
(08:42):
Most, most people know all my secrets,but, but if there is a secret somewhere
out there and I've spoken it on thephone, then somebody has it, right?
So now they're going to want, now they'regoing to get me to do something based
on this one recording and I'll do kindof anything to keep my family safe.
Let's say if there's a secret of me doingsomething that I shouldn't be doing, and.
(09:04):
So, so I thought that, that,that was going to be number one.
And because that's what yousee in the movies, right?
They'll get you to do, they'll get you toblow up a building because they're, you
know, holding something over your head.
Um, I. But, but he, but he said thatthat was not the, the most powerful way
to get someone to do what you wantedto do, and that the movies are the ones
(09:27):
that are projecting that narrative.
Um, Chad, do you remember?
Dr. Chad Johnson (09:34):
It's the most dramatic, it's the, it is
Dr. Maggie Augustyn: the most dramatic right? (09:36):
undefined
Although, I mean, look, if, if you'vegot my kid, that certainly is going
to be more powerful than you're hold.
If you're holding onto my secretof some notes that I passed
onto, you know, um, I don't know.
Something that I was, not, that I wasdoing that I wasn't supposed to be doing.
Sure.
Um, do you remember there the right how?
(09:57):
I don't
Dr. Chad Johnson (09:58):
remember.
So my guess is gonna be the ego.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (10:01):
Okay.
Reagan, do you remember them?
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Oh yeah, I, I remember them too.
Like, they're, they're
Regan Robertson (10:08):
in my heart.
Go ahead.
It's classic StoryBrand.
So I think you asked a little bitago why this was so intriguing to me.
And it's classic, it's classic StoryBrandand it's also classic, uh, skip
Miller, uh, who did M three learning.
And so it's, it's sales trainingand it's story training.
And so it's.
It's very easy.
It's, it's mission based and it'sunderstanding someone's deeper why.
And I like what you were saying aboutTikTok, Maggie, but it is, um, ideology
(10:33):
number one, what a person believes.
Think about the religious wars.
Think about what we hold near and dearto our hearts at the closest core level.
You can get somebody to dosomething when they are involved
in a mission that they believe in.
So their beliefs are the biggest.
Strongest driver.
Um, I believe that ego was number two.
And, uh, and the, the examplegiven was Mother Theresa, which I
(10:56):
absolutely loved because I don't thinkof ego as necessarily a bad thing.
Um, when I think of ego personally,I think of what, how does that person
wanna be perceived to the world?
Like, what do they want to be known for?
I don't think that that'snecessarily a good or a bad thing,
but it's important to understand.
W how that person wants to be perceived.
And I use this in marketing all thetime because I think of the person I'm
(11:17):
marketing to as the hero of the story.
So what are their core beliefs, andthen what do they wanna be perceived as?
That is their transformation.
We wanna hit that.
And then number three is reward.
And that's do this, get this, that'swhere the free trips, you know,
come, come to the conference and beentered for a raffle to round trip
to Hawaii tickets or something.
(11:38):
That's the third.
And then coercion is actually the last.
And so I'm, I'm surprised that you reallydid think that coercion was first, but he,
Andrew said most people in Hollywood, likethey often, they often, um, mess it up.
Yeah.
But once, once you threaten someone.
To that extent with maybe theblackmail or, um, whatever.
It's, you can do at once, butthey're never gonna trust you again.
(12:00):
So if you've got a, a long-term mission,which I assume, you know, if you're in
the ccia a you probably have missions thatare years long in the making, then you've,
you've gotta play a much longer game.
So coercion is the weakest of them.
Yeah.
Dr. Chad Johnson (12:13):
And regarding that, when I think about, um.
Ego and I think about false humilityas one example where people,
when he was talking about, youknow, regardless of whether it's.
Proud or humble, you know,or a hundred other emotions.
Right?
You know, that, that when people do thefalse humility thing, like sometimes
(12:36):
they're like, well, I just, I think itwas, you know, I'm just not that good
at it, but like, I just tried and,you know, it's really a team effort.
And, but we, I mean, we knocked itoutta the park, but it was, it was
in spite of me because it was justamazing and, and stuff like that.
I'm just like, people like.
Uh, they almost seem to go outta their wayto, because they're, they're getting to
(12:58):
frame in the compliment, they're gettingto frame how they want to be viewed.
Regan Robertson (13:03):
Yes.
Dr. Chad Johnson (13:05):
So it goes along that Mother Theresa line, even
though Mother Theresa was doingwonderful things for, you know, the
orphanage, this and that and whatever.
But then, you know, like, but, butagain, she had a view that she was.
Portraying and wanted to be seen as doing.
It wasn't, um, it wasn'thidden out of sight.
(13:25):
I mean, Jesus in the NewTestament talks about that.
Don't let the right left handknow what the right hand is doing.
It's just like it, there should be a,a hidden nature to the, the goodness of
what you're doing, which is also tough.
'cause when people say, for example,you know, when they're like, you
know, churchy people don't donateas much as, as unc churchy people.
And it's just like, no,what's recorded isn't.
(13:48):
Isn't as visible about what churchypeople might do versus UNC churchy
people that are like, Hey, I'mgonna put this on my tax form.
I did this and that because it's allabove the board, and what's it to me?
And then, but like my wife and Italk about this where it's just
like, I mean, there's a lot ofhidden stuff that won't get recorded.
About stuff that people do for otherpeople and, um, uh, you know, that
(14:12):
doesn't get counted towards, you know,if the IRS is trying to figure out
who's more generous, you know, uh,churchy people or unchurched people.
It's just one example where I'm just like,uh, I don't think that I, there's some
kind of bias there that actually leans itto be more neutral in my opinion than, uh,
than, you know, what, um, uh, reality is.
(14:33):
So.
Regan Robertson (14:35):
I think it's interesting when we talk public and private, there's
um, uh, I don't know if Skip Millercoined term three levels of why, but I
pay attention to three levels of why.
And, uh, when I'm interviewing people ordeveloping a brand, especially, uh, there
is that public persona, which to me is theego, is how people want to be perceived,
and that's the suit that we all put on.
(14:55):
Um, Maggie is an enigmato me and I, and this.
Particular podcast and why I brought itto you both was because in, uh, in that
episode, Andrew explains that there's apublic life of a person, a private life
of a person, and then there is a secretlife and everybody has all three things.
Uh, I've known for years abouttechnology listening to people,
(15:19):
and, um, you know, that, that.
Things could be recorded and,and it definitely puts you
at a more heightened sense.
And, and I didn't understand though,if that's human nature to have a secret
side and a private side, and then yourpublic side, why you would, why you
would hold it so closely to yourself.
For example, uh, you know, your publiclife is, is how you look on camera.
(15:40):
For example, if you dress up and you wannawear a suit, private life is just those,
those few things inside the people whoreally know you, uh, know that you eat.
You know, you eat cookiesin bed or something.
And then the secret life is,you know, maybe specific traumas
that you've suffered that youdon't want people to know about.
Um, something that could beconsidered shameful that you
don't wanna bring to light.
(16:00):
And Maggie.
Is like passionately running towards,uh, sharing private to the verge
of secret even I would say, uh,she just is saying, I'm gonna strip
myself bare for the world to see.
And and that to me is, um, fascinating,Maggie, that you, that you do that.
(16:21):
And I, I think my, my new puzzleis, is really asking myself, what,
what motivates a person to do that?
And then I'm starting to run.
The RICE acronym, you know, through me.
And I think it gets back to again, um,how we wanna be perceived in the world
and what we wanna accomplish together.
Um, I think that it, it, it mattersAnd so when I interview people, I try
(16:43):
to, uh, ingratiate myself and build aconnection that's genuinely strong enough.
So I understand their privateside, but not their secret side.
So if I'm getting to know someone,I wanna know, um, I wanna know you
with the business suit, often thecasual clothes on so that I can get.
To some of your deeper corelevels of why, because when we're
developing brands, that is essential.
(17:04):
When you talk about authenticmarketing, it's essential, it matters.
That's the, to me, that's wherethe fascia of like human connection
lives and we can build out.
Reward systems and we can play tothe ideology and all of that in our,
in, in the way that we develop brandsand the way that I tell stories
and share messages and whatnot.
(17:24):
But I don't wanna go sofar that I get into secret.
And I think that's where, um, like theCIA, they have to go there and that's
where the blackmail comes into play.
And, and they use it for reallystrong, uh, strong reasons.
And so, but in everydaylife you don't need that.
I don't know.
What did, what did you think Maggie Secret
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (17:44):
is, is, um.
Secret is interesting because whenyou get to that place of secrecy,
you, you be, and, and he said this,you share a bond that is unbreakable.
Right.
And to get to the secret part,you have to share something also.
(18:05):
And.
That's not easy for everybody to do.
And then, and then the other, andthen the other part of it is that
when you share something, there's achance that you're gonna get hurt.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, like there's, you have togive something and then somebody
can take it and, and, um, andthere's a chance for coercion.
(18:28):
Mm-hmm.
Like there's things that Ihave shared with people that
I haven't shared publicly.
And those relationships,those friendships have.
Really been damaged and these peoplecan come back and, and, and knowing
what they know about me, these secrets,I, you know, they can shame me while
(18:48):
I'm on stage from the audience.
Um, and.
And I, I don't know.
Maybe, maybe that's why I'mletting out all, all my secrets.
I don't want anybody holdinganything over me, right?
Like if I let go of all mysecrets, nobody can ever coerce me.
I'll be free.
You know, that's like
Regan Robertson (19:07):
Eminem's tactic.
That was in his rap lyrics that he made.
That was one of his strategieswas I'll make fun of myself.
I will just share my dirty laundry myself,and then you can't use it against me.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (19:17):
Right.
Regan Robertson (19:19):
There,
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (19:20):
there's, there's something very freeing.
And then the other thing that I amtold is that not being able to keep
a secret or not, or, or just airingyour own dirty laundry is a trauma
response that's not entirely healthy.
Um, and I don't knowhow I feel about that.
Uh, to me, letting go of the darkshadows that I have in me has been
(19:43):
very healthy and very healing.
And the, the healthcare providersthat I have around me have confirmed
that, um, stuffing them deep insidewas less healthy than letting them go.
But, but sharing secrets, um, Imean it's, it's, it's a deeper
connection than sleeping with someone.
(20:06):
Um, when you're, when you're able,when, when you're, when you become
that safe space for someone, um, andthey become that safe space for you,
that you're like, you're like almost,I don't know, crossing planes of
consciousness and, and, and multiverse.
You, you can connect in anentirely different level.
(20:26):
That is my experience.
I I, I don't know if the two of you, um,
Dr. Chad Johnson (20:30):
well, I, I would liken it to.
That's why sexuality is one formof intimacy, but intimacy is
greater than sexuality itself.
Um, and no, what you guysare saying resonates with me.
I mean, that secrecy, um,has, um, merit or value to it.
(20:53):
And that, you know, you are,you are allowing that to be.
Um, you, you have to guard that, uh, uh,for who you're, you're trusting and you
can't just inherently trust everyone.
And when you do trust someone, thereis a reward to trusting them and then
them mutually keeping that trust.
(21:17):
So,
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (21:18):
and that doesn't always work out.
Right, because relationships
Dr. Chad Johnson (21:21):
aren't No, which is why we guard secrets.
Otherwise, why don't, why don'twe just make everything public?
And it's like, I don'tknow if that's healthy.
I, I think it's up toeveryone's discretion to.
In this world of, um, it's an experiment,you know, where you, your life gets to be
an experiment where you get to test outwhether you are right or wrong in the end.
(21:45):
And it's messy because we don't knowwhether to trust the people that we
share or don't share everything with.
There could be, there could be anegative consequence to not sharing
and entrusting with someone.
Um, I had a patient.
Yesterday who came in, and I, andI've known him for a long time
(22:06):
as an acquaintance, and I, I, hecame in and I said, you know, so
what, what, what's your concern?
And he said, well, you're the dentist.
Tell me.
And I just thought it was kind of weirdbecause like he was guarded and, you
know, like that, that makes it tough.
And, and all of a sudden thewall went up three bricks high.
Right.
And, you know, and, and it's justlike, oh, you know the, what do you
(22:27):
like, you know, like, help me out.
What, like, what do you want?
You know, like, what,what's concerning you?
Like, let's start at a, a starting point.
Now, if his concern was, I don'twanna bias you, you know, take a
look and tell me what you find.
Fair enough.
But it was just weird the way thathe said it, and it, it did kind
of, uh, uh, put up a wall, um, in,in, in that dynamic right there.
(22:52):
'cause I was just like, uh, like almost
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (22:54):
resentful.
Dr. Chad Johnson (22:56):
Yes.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn: Like, like, like, yeah. (22:57):
undefined
Like, um, I'm not gonna tellyou this is a test for you.
Dr. Chad Johnson (23:02):
Right.
I, it was just, he said, I've gota few teeth with root canals and
I, I just want 'em all pulled.
I said, okay, are they bothering you?
No, I just don't trust, I don'ttrust, uh, anything I hear anymore.
I just want to get it out.
And I was like, well, according to the,the X-ray that we took, it looks like you
(23:24):
have one tooth with root cannot treatment.
And he goes, Nope, I got more than that.
And so it's just like,all right, this is weird.
You
Regan Robertson (23:32):
know, like all the days go.
He was the dental office.
Do you think he was lying?
Dr. Chad Johnson (23:35):
No.
Okay.
No, I think he was nervous and thiswas his response of, you know, like,
of having, um, un uncomfortabilityto the whole appointment.
You know, this is how uncomfortablepatients are, and so he's gonna
project that into the whole situation.
It's just one example all weeklong, how dentists are not.
(23:59):
You run across people whereyou're like, well, where.
Where is this trust levelgoing to go with patients?
And, and Reagan, I think that's whyyou invited us to listen to this is
figure out, okay, are we being goodclinicians when we listen to our
patients and figure out what's theirmotivation in trying to get healthy
(24:19):
in trying to keep their bill as low aspossible in trying to have as little as
pain as possible, what's their point?
And you know, um, also coercion when.
Every dentist has to choose when apatient says, is this going to hurt?
And you have to think aboutwhether you say, of course it
is, or no, of course it's not.
(24:40):
Or somewhere in between.
Mm-hmm.
Regan Robertson (24:44):
I absolutely love this because I didn't realize
that the po, it's poignant.
It's a poignant point that you bring upbecause already just being a dentist, you
have a boulder that you're pushing uphill.
Just the connotation that'sassociated with dentistry.
But right now in our culture,in the United States especially,
obviously can't speak for everyone.
I'll just speak for myself.
(25:04):
Sometimes I just don't.
Media.
Take the media.
Take media at.
At large and the political landscape.
There are days when I say Idon't know what to believe.
I don't know how to fact check.
I don't understand.
And I believe that that is probably bydesign that that's created that way.
And so I, I have not beforethought of when you have that
subconsciously running in your head.
(25:26):
Then you start applying it tothe other areas of your life, how
much more difficult your job justgot in addition to it being a
challenge and, and yes, absolutely.
How do clinicians build an authenticconnection in a way that's not
manipulative, but instead motivating andencouraging and, uh, you know, in addition
to all the other things that you haveto be including clinically proficient.
(25:49):
Uh, it, it is, it's, it's a challengeright now, and healthcare in general
is a challenge, but that makes it even.
Even more difficult.
Dr. Chad Johnson (25:58):
Yeah.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (25:59):
I really hope that we have a chance to, um, record a
podcast about the challenges of beinga clinician because on one hand we do
have to, it, it is our primary roleand goal to look out for the health of
our patient and to be compassionate.
Um, and the way that.
The profession presents itselfand we knew that we were
(26:21):
going to end up in this place.
We have associates that aregraduating with a ton of debt.
Right, and nobody on this planetcan, can tell me and with, let's
talk about ego on this, right?
And, and maybe ego is not the rightterm, or perhaps reward is a better term.
If we're going to talk about motivation,let's talk about the motivation of the
(26:41):
clinician as they make the decision.
So you have a patient and yourjob is to look for their best
interest, but can you really tell me.
That when you are half a million dollarin debt and don't have the money to make
that enormous mortgage payment on thatdebt, you are not going to be guided by
that mortgage payment to present treatmentto, in some way coerce or motivate.
(27:09):
That patient to put your wordsin a certain way to present the
treatment plan for that patient.
Um, in, in pursuing, in, in,in, in allowing them to shape
their mind to choose onetreatment modality over another.
I mean, how many morearticles can be written?
(27:33):
Not just dental magazines, but inthe publicized media that goes to
the patient saying that naturalteeth are being replaced by,
you know, all on X and implants.
So that instead of placing a coupleof crowns, were were selling $50,000,
(27:55):
60 or $70,000 treatment plants.
The, this is everywhere.
And, and this is the differencebetween motivation and manipulation.
And, and a lot of that rests on our ownintegrity, but we fight that integrity
because of, of the life that we're living.
Also, I mean, this, this issuch a complicated issue.
Regan Robertson (28:16):
This has a lot of, uh, many deep layers to it, right?
'cause you're held to ethical standards.
And so I think if I'm hearingyou well, you're saying even.
If consciously, everyone is saying Yes,we adhere to the ethical standards.
We have integrity.
We understand what that means,but then there might be a
subconscious driver that's.
That's motivating us to, um, tothink a little differently about
(28:40):
how, how treatment is presentedor why treatment is presented.
Dr. Chad Johnson (28:44):
Well, for example, everyone has signed up to get a
driver's license agreeing to obey the.
Civil and traffic laws and everything,but when you need to get your kids
somewhere or you need to get somewhere,that stop sign becomes more of a quick
little, uh, and you know, but you,you have a retired person that's in
(29:06):
front of you and they have all daylong to get to the hardware store.
W
Regan Robertson (29:12):
Oh, you are speaking my town's language right now.
Dad, thank.
Oh, thank you.
Yes.
It's always the hardware store.
Dr. Chad Johnson (29:18):
Yes.
And, and they have to go three timesa day, but, um, ask how I know.
Five
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (29:24):
minutes apart, right?
Dr. Chad Johnson (29:26):
Yeah, exactly.
Ask how I know.
And, but you know, they're driving fiveunder the speed limit and, and so, you
know, it's just like, okay, I guess we'veall agreed to go the speed limit, but.
Then we all kind of go, well, but I meanit's two over, it's five, over it's 10,
whatever your number is, you know, and youwatch people in the neighborhood at times,
(29:46):
you know, where it's just like that.
I don't know if that quite countsas a stop, you know, like that's
gonna need to be more stoppingnext time than, than yielding.
Um, and it goes along that linewhere yes, we have ethics, but.
Uh, but even as people,we all are citizens.
We all have ethics that we're supposedto, you know, drive the, the, you
know, according to the speed limitand this and that, but it's just
(30:08):
like, but we're not perfect at it.
So we all lie, we all, uh, we all lieto the government that we're going to
drive the best we can and we don't.
So it's just anotherexample where we all lie.
We're, we're untrue to a perfect standard.
Regan Robertson (30:26):
Maggie, what's your final thoughts on this?
I, I
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (30:31):
mean, I,
it's a little, we got a little low, right?
We, we got a little low withthe, with, with the lies and the
manipulation and the motivation.
I, I think part of the uplifting partof the podcast is that when you use
the RICE acronym, acronym, right?
Which is reward, um,what was the second one?
(30:53):
Ideology, ideology, coercion and ego.
You can use that for good.
Dr. Chad Johnson (30:58):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (30:59):
You can use that to motivate.
And, um, when he was talking about that,I, I thought about that in my leadership
with my team and how can I use thatto better myself as a leader in the
way that I listen to my team members.
How can I redesign the jobdescriptions that they have?
(31:19):
How can I redesign what they do onan everyday basis to uplift them?
Um.
To redesign the reward system toplay off of their ideologies, to
create an environment in whichthey can find themselves or find
a joy, um, in, in, in serving.
(31:42):
The patience and I, and I think whenyou start to contrast manipulation into
motivation, it, it stops being so dark.
But we, but we do, we, we live,we live in a world that has both,
because you can't see the lightunless you've been in the dark.
You can't appreciate the lightun unless you know, you've,
(32:05):
you, you've been in the mud.
Um.
And, and, and so that, that's how Iwould find the positive spin in it and
continue using the RICE acronym in, in, infinding motivation, both within yourself.
Find, find the times that you areyourself, coercing yourself right
into, into doing some, I don't know,displeasing things are the way that
(32:27):
even you, you, you use self-talk.
Mm-hmm.
Um,
Dr. Chad Johnson (32:32):
mm-hmm.
Regan Robertson (32:33):
I, I, my, I, I thought the whole, the whole episode for me, I
saw it from a positive light for sure.
So, and, and that, again,let's, let's talk about ego.
That plays to my own ego because Idon't think I've ever heard anything
broken down this way on how to motivate.
And my ego wants to beknown as a good leader.
I wanna be seen as a good leader.
I want, I want my team to feellike I have their back and that I
(32:54):
advocate for them, and that I helpthem fulfill their own mission.
So I've got like two.
Two tangibles that I, that I do often.
Three.
I've got three tangibles that I do often.
Wait, what?
Dr. Chad Johnson (33:06):
Four?
Regan Robertson (33:07):
No, I'm just.
Three.
Well, because this is afail and a and a win, right?
So if I, if I show up to a one-on-onewith a team member and I am under a time
crunch or a deadline, basically I havesomething I want to have accomplished and
I put myself in the, the driver's seat,that one-on-one is not gonna go very well.
It's just not.
So what I've learned over the yearsis before I get on that one-on-one,
(33:30):
so before you meet with your team,I ask myself what's in it for them?
So as counterintuitive that as that is,I say what is in it for them and I try
to, to perceive what's in it for them.
For example, uh, yesterdayI called, uh, one of my.
Like an imaging place.
I had to get an X-ray done andthey build the wrong insurance.
So I had to have them switchit to a different insurance.
(33:51):
I called and my daughter was listeningand I, you know, I said hello
and, and explained the situation.
It was handled really easily, andwhen I hung up, my daughter said,
oh, you used like your podcast voice.
And I was like, what do you, Hey,now you use my podcast voice.
And then I said.
That was by intention.
Actually, you know why I, I uptickmy voice was because usually when
people deal with insurance andpatients, they're not very happy.
(34:14):
And I'm already guessing that, thatshe, on the other end of the line,
is gonna wanna be known as beinghelpful, but also not have to deal
with someone who's really cranky.
So I, that's right.
I intentionally uptick my voice.
It wasn't to be manipulative,but it was to hopefully.
Hopefully, you know, have aquick resolution and it, and
it did turn out that way.
Dr. Chad Johnson (34:33):
So framing.
I love it.
Regan Robertson (34:35):
Yeah.
Framing and mirroring, like, yeah, yeah.
Trying, trying to do those, um, thoseelements I think are, are really
important when I'm doing marketing.
So if you, doctor, if you'relistening and you're considering
marketing for your particularpractice, I do the exact same thing.
What is in it for your patient base?
What is it that they want?
(34:56):
Um.
Ultimately, and it's not asdifficult as you think, right?
It really does get down to they wannabe able to eat the foods that they
really love, or they wanna be ableto smile without being embarrassed.
It's not that difficult.
But when you understand that, thatmeans that you're actively listening
to them and the, the messaging and theimagery that you use, um, fall into
(35:16):
place and you're able to, to resonatewith people really, really easy.
I think there was one more,but I already forgot it.
So you get two.
Dr. Chad Johnson (35:30):
Three.
The Cheetos now has a spicy flavor.
What is the habanero Cheetos.
A lot of people like those.
That's the third one.
It's important to know people.
Regan Robertson (35:39):
Perfect.
Well, we hope you got alot out of this today.
We hope you go check out that interviewwith Andrew Bustamante and let us know.
Let us know if it shows up foryou, if you've noticed anything
about yourself and, and whetheror not you, um, are, you know.
You use it for motivating or,or manipulation or maybe both.
Uh, how's it or is itbeing used against you?
(36:01):
I just think it's insightful,especially for any leader listening.
Thanks everybody.
Dr. Chad Johnson (36:10):
Reagan.
I think we might be able to edit thatto where, when you said no, I've got
two things that Yeah, you can just cut.
We can cut that.
No, wait.
Three, four.
Sorry.
Regan Robertson (36:21):
I know, I know.
I can't remember what my, my x-ray story.
My, the, how I use it inmarketing and I, yeah, I don't
remember what the other one was.
Oh, well, it doesn't matter.
Dr. Chad Johnson (36:31):
All right.
You get onto your next call.
Regan Robertson (36:32):
Love you guys.
Dr. Chad Johnson (36:33):
I talk soon.
Regan Robertson (36:34):
She failed.
She failed by the way.
Oh,
Dr. Chad Johnson (36:37):
woo.
Wait.
Regan Robertson (36:40):
I told her, no worries.
Dr. Chad Johnson (36:43):
Oh, it is.
No worries.
Regan Robertson (36:45):
It is No worries.
Dr. Chad Johnson (36:46):
All right.
Yeah.
You should still come home and like that.
You were proud of her and,and like, you know, celebrate.
I'm taking her to crumple
Regan Robertson (36:53):
cookies.
Dr. Chad Johnson (36:54):
That's it.
I was gonna say celebrate eitherway because she was, get sugar.
She was brave to do it.
Regan Robertson (36:59):
Yeah,
Dr. Chad Johnson (36:59):
that's it.
All right, later.
Bye.
Bye.
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