Is Your Leadership Actually Leadersh*t? (E.293)

Are you leading, or are they just surviving you? In this episode, Jake Brown unpacks what happens when good people turn into bad bosses and how to build something better. Based on his new book Leadershit, this one’s hilarious, honest, and painfully necessary.

Episode Transcript

Regan Robertson (00:00):
Have you ever read a book that's actually from the
employee's perspective leaders?
I am talking directly to you.
I know I have read tonsof books and I say tons.
It is multitudes of books onleadership from the leader's
perspective, how to be a better leader.
Um, you know, all the differenttips and tricks you can think

(00:21):
from one executive to another.
I have yet to read a book that's fromthe employee perspective until now.
I just finished a copy of the BookLeader Shit by Jake Brown and,
uh, my co-host Chad Johnson andI are about to interview Jake.
We are so excited.
Uh, Chad, you also downed thebook in, in how much time?

Dr. Chad Johnson (00:43):
Uh, about four or five days, I think on the drive to work.
Perfect.
This is kind of embarrassing becausein front of the author, I was
reading this book and I was like,man, I feel bad about hitting my
employees, but I mean, leaders hit.

Regan Robertson (01:01):
So, so listen, we're giving you, we're
giving you the PG 13 version.
There is the PC version of this book.
Leaders hit and we're just gonnatry right and do leadership.
So Jake Brown, you are a veryfunny, wonderful leadership coach.
You own Air Balloon Advisory, uh, author.

(01:22):
I met you through the businessMade Simple Community.
I follow you avidly on LinkedIn.
Thank you so much for being our gueston Everyday Practices today to share
your insight of all of your decades ofexperience being an employee, being an
owner, and everything in between thatsits between the pages of leadership.
Welcome to our show, Jake.

Jake Brown (01:44):
Oh, it's my pleasure.
Thanks for having me.

Regan Robertson (01:46):
Absolutely.
So how did this idea evenget started to write a book?
Lots of leaders, I know they, theysay, okay, I'm gonna write a book.
But there's gotta be like a cannon moment.
There's gotta be something that says,okay, I'm gonna go ahead and write a book.

Jake Brown (01:59):
Uh, okay.
Uh, so the, to write the book, thisidea, um, I was actually trying to
build authority in another area of myexpertise and everything, and I was just
having all these conversations with,uh, creative people and middle managers
and people that just hated their boss.
Just had a really roughtime with their boss.
And I was having theseconversations and I went back and
looked after writing the book.

(02:21):
And in the course of about three months,I had 200 conversations with people that
were just complaining about their boss.
And I thought.
There's a thing here, and I was tellingthe same stories over and over again,
giving the advice, I was relating withpeople, and it's this thing, it's you.
You get this picture whereit's like anytime you're at a
campfire, guys are together.
Or you know, you're just sitting withpeople and it's like you get off work,
there's like the water cooler whereit's safe, but then you go to the bar

(02:43):
afterwards and you're like, oh my gosh,can you believe that Stan just did this?
And it's like everybody has those stories.
Same thing when you say leadership, whenyou say the title of the book, people are
like, oh, let me tell you about my boss.
I can't tell you how manytimes that's happened.
And it's like, or let me tell youabout this boss I had in college.
Like people immediatelyhave a story to tell.
And what I realized was I wastelling these stories over and over

(03:04):
again and I was like, maybe I justpull them together in one place.
Mm-hmm.

Regan Robertson (03:11):
So this book takes us through your journey.
I, I, I forgot to, you know, let thelisteners in on your background and,
and being at a creative agency, you're,you're in a creative agency and you're
suffering through this boss named Stan.
Now, was this, was this the culmination?
Is this a fictional tale or wasthis, um, fully lived experience?

(03:32):
Tell us about Stan, the bad boss andthis creative agency that you were in.

Jake Brown (03:37):
So this is all real stories that have actually been blended
because there are a couple characters.
Um, there's one character in the book,uh, Cher, who when I went back and
looked at, is actually 15 differentpeople that had that one role.
There was one role that they just,Stan kept running people off.
Stan is a fake name.
You know, names have been changed toprotect the guilty and the innocent,

(03:58):
except my, my name, my name's the same.
Um, my wife's name's thesame in there as well.
Um, but I. It's real storiesand it's going back and telling
them from where they were.
And I even had coworkers from thetime read early versions of the
book to make sure that I didn'tfictional like too, like it's like,
is this, do you remember this?
And they were all like, ohmy gosh, I forgot about that.

(04:20):
Yes.
And it was just really funnyto hear everybody come back.
Um, so, and one part of, I talk aboutlike there are wounds and scars and
what I found is I couldn't help peoplewhen it was an open wound, but when
it was a scar, like think about scars.
Like, you know, we grow up andwe have scars and we're like,
well, lemme tell you about that.
They're like trophies that carrystories and it's already healed.

(04:42):
There's a little bit of, you know,a pain maybe, but it's, it's healed.
But now we go back to the stories andthey don't hurt us anymore, but we
can serve others through the scars.
We can't necessarily serve likepeople while we're bleeding out,
you know, it's like, oh, I got awound, I can't help from there.
And that's kind of what Irealized is, um, yeah, this.
This is the story from day one to daylast, and it's, uh, working at that agency

(05:07):
and just some of the ridiculous storiesand some of the completely absurd, um,
ideas that we came up with to have fun.
And, uh, some of them are,uh, like we are, we, we were
horrible employees at times.
And, you know, it wasjust part of the survival.
I mean, there are things, I look back nowand I'm like, I would fire somebody on the
spot if they worked for me and did that.

(05:28):
Like, no question.
Like they would be gone.
Right.
And yet we're human.
Yeah.

Dr. Chad Johnson (05:33):
Right.

Regan Robertson (05:34):
There is, there was one pervasive theme throughout the entire
book that I kept, it kept like popping up.
So I listened to it every single morningwhen I was getting ready for the day.
Like it was, it was the first thing thatI, that kicked off my day and I talked
to myself, like, I'll reply to the book.
So I had lots ofconversations with you, Jake.
One of them was, I wonder what Stan'sperspective would be like, like what

(05:56):
if Stan wrote a counter option, likea counter, a counter book to kind of
like give his perspective, because I'vebeen in, in the seat of the, oh, like

Dr. Chad Johnson (06:06):
wicking.
Like, like the movieWicked When Can't Win Me

Regan Robertson (06:08):
Like Wicked because I, well, there's a comradery.
There's a comradery tocomplaining about a bad boss.
I'll give you that.
Like I have, I have been so guilty ofcom and I've had some doozies, I've had
some amazing bosses and I've had somehorrible bosses, and there is that.
Sense of community when you get togetherand you complain about the boss.

Jake Brown (06:27):
The common enemy.
Yeah.

Regan Robertson (06:28):
Oh yeah.
Oh, completely.
And then on the flipside, I've been the boss.
I think I've been a good bossand I think I've been a bad boss.
I think it depends on years ofexperience, scenarios, all the
context that sits around it.
And what I, there was one inparticular, um, chapter where
you were talking about Stan.
He came in on a Friday and everyonewas kind of anticipating what he

(06:49):
was gonna do, and he dropped likea bunch of projects in the queue.
Bounced and then by Monday was alreadyasking, okay, well where are these things?
And that I thought was a reallyinteresting perspective because I felt
like all at once, I could see both sides.
Like, what if Stan knew he couldn't makepayroll, if he didn't push these projects

(07:10):
through and nobody on the team knows this.
And then you've got the deliveryteam who gets it and is like, are,
is he absolutely out of his mind?
Like, how can we physically do the work?
I feel like I've sat like right in themiddle of it at times and been like, how
do you navigate that and have communityand have like, uh, respect moving forward?
Like how, how did you, how did younavigate getting dropped projects on

(07:34):
Friday and still showing up on Mondayknowing that you were gonna have to
work through it and maintain some sortof a working relationship with Stan?

Jake Brown (07:43):
Wow.
It's like, oh yeah, we're gonnahave, we get on before you're
like, haha, this is funny.
This is gonna be a good conversation.
And then she's just like, andwha the heaviest question ever.
Um, so I will say reading, like as youread through the book or you listen to
it or whatever, um, the idea that I cameaway from it is that it's about my growth.

(08:06):
Like, you start the book the sameway I started, it's the boss's fault.
Mm-hmm.
But by the end of the book, it's about mygrowth and it's like I have to own this.
And that was what a lot of people,you can't sell a book where you start
out and you say, oh, I had a badboss and this is how I grew start.
That.
They wanna complain about the bad boss.
That's what we do.
Um, so through that, I hadto grow everybody around me.

(08:26):
We grew, you know, through time.
And I would say the respectwas not there in the beginning.
Um, but we learned how to do that.
And as we took on more, as I startedleading more and more there, I
realized, and I did have more empathyfor the position that Stan was in.
But at the same point, I got to apoint where I was like, if Stan's not

(08:47):
self-aware, like I can't do that for Stan.
Like, I can't fix Stan and Ican't, I don't know what to expect.
So again, one of the things is, uh,we'll go back to like most we, leadership
issues, I think come from either,uh, misaligned or unmet expectations.

(09:07):
So that idea, like the scenario thatyou said, when Stan drops all those
projects and everything, if I know whatthe expectations are, I can work with it.
But my expectation is like, oh, look,Stan's being lazy, being, you know, just
making a fire so that he can be the hero.
That's what I see.
And Stan's like, they workfor me, get this done.
Like there's an unmet, like there'sa, a misalignment there, but it

(09:31):
stan's like, Hey, leadership team,this is the issue that we're having.
Um.
We need to make sure this gets done well.
That's great.
We can rally the troops and have,you know, communication waterfall
of who needs to know what.
And even if it gets to a pointwhere I'm like, Hey guys,
there's something going on.
We don't have time totalk about it, whatever.
But I'm cashing in my social currencywith the team and saying, I need y'all

(09:53):
to do me a solid favor right now.
I'll explain later.
Like, I can do that if they trustme, but if Stan just comes in, they
don't trust Stan at that point.
So Stan can't do it.
But putting me in that positionwas really, really hard.
When I go, Hey guys, I needyou to do me a solid favor.
I don't know why.
Like, that's not okay.
Now in my situation, going throughthe book and everything, there would

(10:17):
never be a point in that company that,Hey, we're not gonna make payroll,
so I need to do this kinda stuff.
Like I could see the numbers.
I got to the point where, you know,we worked our way in where it's kinda
like, uh, we call it reverse delegation.
And it's like, I'm going to take thisaway from you 'cause you're bad at it.
We would just like find ways to taketasks away from the owner, from the
leader because we needed it to be better.

(10:39):
It was like I, so we had worked ourway in and taken some of that stuff,
like the owner didn't run payroll.
Um, Natalie in the book actually did.
So I

Dr. Chad Johnson (10:47):
have a thought, Reagan is this indirectly what the
magic of Productive Dentist Academy is.
In that, at the workshop conferences,um, we have, you know, come
together as the team and we go,here's what all needs to get done.
Um, say, by the way, who would bethe best person to get this done?

(11:09):
And then, you know, like,oh, you're right boss.
It would be the administrative team's,you know, best interest to do this.
Well, why don't we let them feelempowered to do their best by let it,
and it's almost, I don't want to callit, uh, passive aggressive, but do you
think Reagan like that there was some,um, some, um, rewiring of the boss to,

(11:31):
you know, because the boss is bringingthe employees to this conference
and then learning, wow, if I empowermy team, my team does a lot better.
And then, and then, you know, the bossgoes, yeah, it kind of was my idea to
come to this conference and it's my ideato, to let them, you know, help me out.
And by, by letting the team kindof do this, I actually win and my

(11:54):
productivity goes up and stuff like that.
Reagan, was that ever a, a thing I.

Regan Robertson (11:58):
It is always a beautiful thing to get everyone
aligned on the same page.
Meaning the understanding that if you'regoing to serve a patient or you're going
to deliver a product to a consumer or acustomer, that you're all in this together
and that you all want it to be successful.
Transparency is key, and no oneindividual is great at everything.

(12:20):
And I, I know for dentistry, um, I don'tknow in the different industries you've
worked with Jake, but, uh, you know, the,a lot of pressure sits on the doctor's
shoulders, especially if they're businessowner, um, and clinician at the same time.
And I do think the, the conferencein particular, it absolutely helps
people understand how they can showup and, and be empowered and yeah,

(12:40):
take off some of the pieces that,that they shouldn't be holding.
Maybe the doctor shouldn't beholding and the team can step up.
Jake, what?
I think you've done an exceptionaljob when you talk about a
misalignment of, um, expectations.
So you say expectations or values orunspoken, what did you say exactly?
It was really, really good.

Jake Brown (12:57):
That's it.
Misaligned or unmet expectations?

Regan Robertson (13:01):
Misaligned or, yeah, I think, I think you do an exceptional
job separating the data elements fromthe emotional elements, and suddenly it
becomes not so personal anymore and you'reable to, um, refocus where your goal is.
And it's not at necessarily saying,stand is a crappy boss, or, you know, uh,
Melanie doesn't know how to do her job.

Jake Brown (13:24):
Um, one of the things that I learned is that, for instance,
most people expect their boss tolead them or to take them somewhere
or to mentor them, or be a friend ora father figure or a mother figure.
Like they expect them tomake, like they expect them to
change them and invest in them.

(13:44):
Most bosses expect topay you for your work.
That's it.
It's like, that was a huge,you know, misalignment for me.
It was so long.
I was like, I. You're my boss,your job is to make me better.
Like I'm the product that you're workingon and I will make you a lot of money.
And then it's like, or notlike that just didn't align.

(14:05):
And when I started trying tohave conversations like that
with people, it was like, no.
And I'm like, wait a minute.
I completely misunderstoodthis whole boss thing.
Like, I did not, like, my expectationwas like, you know, I don't know what
Curious George book, I read and thoughtthat this is what, how the world was
gonna be when I got into my career.
Um, I have found good people alongthe way in this, uh, instance.

(14:28):
It wasn't, um, it was just, um, Stanwanted credit, wanted, he, Stan was
building a fan club that clapped for him.
Mm-hmm.
And I was like, yeah, thatwasn't in the brochure.
Like, not at all what I signed up for.
Um, and one of the things you guysmentioned talking about like the
conference and that kind of stuff is,um, specifically you said the, the owner.

(14:51):
Setting up the rest of theteam to excel at their job.
And in the book I talk about thewhite framework, and it's just
two questions that you figure out.
What is the position,what are you working on?
And my favorite question to ask a leader,like if you're reading the book, it's
like, am I aligned with the company,with the leader, the values, the team?
Am I aligned?
Am I a part of this?

(15:12):
And where it's going?
Great.
The other question is, am I able, andthe idea there really is, do I have the
skills and am I allowed to do my job?
And my favorite question to ask the bossis, is your team able to do their job?
They only talk about the skills.
And I say, do you allow them to do it?
Do you allow them to grow and learn?

(15:34):
Because here's an example, when myson was learning to walk, I remember
one day I was carrying the groceries.
We, there's three stepsinto our apartment.
At the time he was, you know, littleand I was like, okay, I'll come back and
carry you in because that was my solution.
I come back and he is making it allthe way up to the top of the stairs.
And I go, wait a minute.

(15:55):
He had to fail.
He had to do something that wasfrustrating to me to be slow and
everything, but I have to lethim learn to climb those stairs.
And that's a frustratingthing for my pace.
But I never carried him up those stairsagain because I let him figure it out.
I gave him, I allowed himto develop that skill.
And most leaders, their biggestthing about delegation is I don't

(16:17):
have that time to teach 'em.
Well, that's cool.
Or they won't do it as good as me.
And I'm like, you know, here'sanother story about my kids.
This one almost went in thebook, but it wasn't about work.
Um, we have a, like a staggeredchore chart that our kids grow into.
Nice.
And when our kids turnfive, they clean toilets.

Dr. Chad Johnson (16:35):
Yes.

Jake Brown (16:36):
And they clean toilets like a 5-year-old.
Sure.
But they learn.
But it's the next kid up whose job it'sto make sure that the toilet gets cleaned.
So like right now, so a kidturns five, well the kid older
than them is two years older.
The seven year old's job to makesure that the five year-old learns
how to and cleans the toilet.
Brilliant.
Well then it was the 12 year old's jobto make sure that the bathroom was done.

(16:56):
So they get like a higherlevel of oversight, right?
Supervisory, yeah.
Right.
So they're learning that kind stuff.
And I don't have to delegate.
My ADHD is fine 'cause I'mlike bathroom done, I'm out.
Um, but a five-year-old cleans thebathroom like a five-year old, a
six-year old cleans the bathroomas good as I do, cleans the toilet.
So you go.
But it takes them a year to getgood at it, but at the same time,

(17:19):
they develop that skill.
They get better because we madespace for them to get better.
And we started thiswhen my oldest was five.
That means I haven't coineda toilet in 10 years.
That's how delegation works.

Regan Robertson (17:34):
You know, that's gonna be like the soundbite
for the entire podcast now.

Jake Brown (17:38):
I haven't coined a toilet in 10 years.
Drop.

Regan Robertson (17:42):
I, there, there is a, there is a, aside from the cleaning
toilet part, uh, what I think is reallyinteresting is right, you, you get out
what you put into something and, um, andallowing teams to have time to actually
be able to be trained in addition todoing day-to-day work is something
that I have seen regardless of industryagain, that, that tends to be something
that gets overlooked an awful lot.

(18:03):
And Chad, to your point, likewith any, any conference or any
sort of investment you make to,to train your team, it takes time.
How, like, Chad, for you, um, becauseyou've taken, you've taken your whole
entire team multiple times and you investin training in them, um, do you just make
that a, like, is it just a given, likeyou just, when you are planning out your

(18:27):
budget and you're looking at the year, youjust know like, I will designate X amount
of hours as part of their development?

Dr. Chad Johnson (18:35):
No.
Um.
No, but we, I built it into myGoogle calendar and so I, I don't
think about the cumulative overall,like the big, like the big picture.
It's my actually like goingon Wednesday, um, will rotate.
I. Having a training session, and thehygienists can have the first one,

(18:58):
the assistants can have the secondone, the admin can have the third one,
and then the fourth week is the, themonthly recap and stuff like that.
So like, mine is a little bit moregranular, but then it adds up.
So I suppose I could in my mindsay, okay, that's 12 hours a year.
You know, that, uh, that the hygienistsare doing theirs and 12 hours a year
that, you know, and stuff like that.
But I've never thought, okay, let's,I've got an extra $30,000, let's set

(19:23):
that aside for employee development and,and let's choose what to do with that.
It was kind of like, oh man, Isuppose we should make that conference
work and I'll just find a way tomake it work, even though I don't
know if I have the budget for it.
That's kind of how it went.
Um, Jake, I have a question.

(19:45):
Um, so I was curious how.
It ended up long term and didn'tmake it into the book that
everyone chose to wear jeans.
And then it makes me wonder if this,the alternate sub caption of this
book is how to train your Boss.
Oh,

Regan Robertson (20:03):
well this is so good.
I love the Jean story.

Dr. Chad Johnson (20:06):
Yes.
So your thoughts, Jay?
Um, sorry, I started laughing andI kind of forgot the question.
Um, uh, so the question, was thereany, like, so what didn't make it into
the book, like over the next year?
Was it like, what's that?
A lot that didn't make it into the book.
Yes.
So I just wonder if, you know, like ifthere was some poking fun of the gene

(20:29):
story because poking fun, or shall wecall it soft bullying is one way that
we can, you know, like let people knowlike, hey, I'm just kidding around.
But I'm not like there's some truth to it.
We don't like when you aren't consistentwith your rules and you know, do you
remember how we all wore the jeans?
Do you want that to happen againbecause you are not consistent with how

(20:51):
you come to work and stuff like that?
Like was there any more follow upor was it just unsaid, unspoken,
like done deal and that was it?

Jake Brown (21:00):
So on that specific, okay, I'm gonna back up.
There's a term that I useand I call it custom jabs.
Yes.
And it's this idea, you can saystuff that's like walking up and
punching somebody in the throat.
Yes.
And they will smile at you and give you a hug and everything.
'cause you're like, I heard you, Ihave listened to you, I understand you.
And now my punch is because.
I know you better than other people.

(21:21):
And I think that's those, even whenyou do those and they're not kind,
they land really, really well.
And I have learned that.
I'm really good at that.
Um, actually my, my wife and my therapisthave told me I'm really good at that.
Um, very efficient too.
At the, sometimes, sometimes too good.
Oh yeah.
You can smile at somebody.

Dr. Chad Johnson (21:38):
I

Jake Brown (21:38):
know.

Dr. Chad Johnson (21:39):
See, that's the best is when you actually
smile and you just go, well, it's'cause you don't wear deodorant.
Yeah.
See?
And people are like, oh,

Jake Brown (21:47):
he said that with a smile, huh?
But it's just those customjabs, they, they do go deeper.
They, they hit because the person'slike, oh, I, you understand me.
It's kinda like, you know,the, the jab from a friend.
You can take a harder hit from a friendthan you can from a stranger or an enemy.
That's right.
And it, it matters more likeyou're, you're gonna also

(22:07):
respond to that differently.
Um,

Dr. Chad Johnson (22:09):
so to the, to the genius that's literally in Proverbs, isn't it?
It's just like that's, you know,that like a, a, a kiss from,
uh, or something like that.
Like that a kiss from an enemy isworse than a, uh, than a jab or
whatever from a friend, you know,like from your, from your brother.
And it's just like, yeah, that's true.

Jake Brown (22:25):
Yeah.
Straight out the, the newChad translation, right?
That's right.
Yeah.
It's, it's pretty much, yeah.
It's the modern day context.
The modern day gist.
Yeah.
Um, Sarah hears a lot of that.

Regan Robertson (22:38):
The, for context in this book, the Gene, the gene story, the gene
story is really about not, not leadingthe way, horribly, like modeling the way
in the worst way possible as a leaderand being a total hypocrite, correct?
Yeah.

Jake Brown (22:52):
Yeah.
It's, uh, so the boss shows up in jeans,shows up in jeans, shows up in jeans.
We were only allowed towear jeans on Friday.
Our Fridays get taken away whenclients are in the office or you know,
just because Stan ate a bad burrito.
I don't know, we can't wear jeans.
Like, it's ridiculous.
There was no pattern.
Um, so this kept going on and it was just,it was kind of a freedom that we had.

(23:16):
One of the things that we had to hold ontothat and it just kept getting taken away.
And then there's this week thatStan just starts showing up 'cause
he didn't do laundry and he isshowing up wearing jeans all the
time and we're like, this is garbage.
So I rally the troops and we decidethat one day we're all just gonna
wear jeans and see how this goes.
And it proved a point wedidn't get in trouble.

(23:36):
We should have, I should havegotten in a lot of trouble for this.
It didn't, um, it rallied everybody evencloser together and it made some changes.
Um, gene Fridays werenever canceled again.
Um, oh, okay.
But the genes every day wasn't a thing.
It's just like nobody ever spoke about it.
Like it never came up.

(23:57):
But we were always allowed towear, like every Friday, even if
clients came to the office, we wereallowed to wear jeans on Friday.
Like it just be becamesacred thing, you know?
It's, it was good.
Um, ironically though, I was gone forabout six months or so and it became
jeans every day, so I was like, okay.

(24:19):
So that was like a massive shiftthat they changed the policy that
everybody could just wear jeans andI was kind of like, including Stan.
Sure.

Dr. Chad Johnson (24:26):
Right.

Jake Brown (24:27):
I mean, you

Regan Robertson (24:27):
No, I, I'm Stan is Yeah.
Chin Stan's not real, real sort of real

Jake Brown (24:32):
well.
Right, right, right.
No.
Stan's a person.
Different name.
Yeah, a person.
Oh, okay.
Correct.
Okay.
Yeah.
And, um, yeah, but Stan was, uh, yeah,wore jeans whenever, um, they changed
the kind of the culture a little bit.
Like they shifted it kind of, Ithink what happened is when I left
it, um, some of the glue that I washolding together, like I actually.

(24:57):
In a way became an enabler because Iwas standing in that gap and part of my
leaving, like they had to, there was somefriction that they had to recalibrate.
And I think in part of that there were,there were several things that shifted.
Um, another thing is right as I wasleaving, we shifted the company,
that agency to be completely remote.
Oh.

(25:17):
So then that was fine, but whenthey got together, everything
was jeans of client meetings.
You could wear jeans of client meetings.
Like it definitely, therewas a big, big shift there.
Um, so that was interesting.
Um,

Regan Robertson (25:29):
mm-hmm.
I really like how you, uh, how you addressthe self-awareness piece in, in the
book about leaders not being self-aware.
And I pulled a statistic,I posted it on LinkedIn.
It was, it was something like 95% orso of leaders believe that they're
self-aware when actually it's like.
Minimal.
It's like 15% or somethingactually are self-aware.

(25:49):
And I thought the gene story was oneexample of being very, it was poignant
because how could you not know If youhave a policy in place and you know, and
you show up as the Boston jeans, you'vegotta, I mean, you've gotta have a moment
in your head where you know you are goingagainst the rules and then you tell this
story about showing up and, and havingthis, this big special day planned.

(26:11):
It was like a training day and you didthe personality assessment and it rocked
your world because it really demonstratedjust how disconnected Stan was from
the person that he actually is to theperson that he is projecting and thinks
he is, is sharing with everybody else.

(26:32):
And that what.
In the following pages, likeit was a cliffhanger for me.
I was like jumping out.
I've done all of the personalitytests, not every single
one, but I've done so many.
And, um, and I've seen thisscenario happen before, so I
knew exactly where you were at.
If you take the test, you donot see yourself and you project
it onto others and the bookcontinues and gives you tools.

(26:55):
And I thought that was amazing becausewhether you are a boss yourself or
whether you are, uh, an employee sittingin the leadership and trying to work
through it, you actually have solutionsfor it, which is amazing because most
books, they talk about it, they makeyou aware of it, and then there isn't
a whole heck of a lot to do with it.
So the, the Chad, do you remember thepersonality test story in his book?

Dr. Chad Johnson (27:16):
Uh, fill me in a little bit more

Jake Brown (27:18):
to for context.
Well, the title is You Failed aPersonality Test, you Get a Cookie

Dr. Chad Johnson (27:26):
Story Of My Life.

Regan Robertson (27:30):
So, yeah.
So every, so, uh, I mean, whenyou're investing in your team.
And, and forcing everybody to gothrough these, these tests or these,
whatever it is that you're gonna havethem do, uh, what good is it if if
you're not gonna be real with yourself?
And so, Jake did, I, didI understand it correctly?
Everybody took a personality test andStan gets up to, like, everyone's reading
off what they got as their results.

(27:53):
And it's obvious that Stan eitherdidn't, he didn't fill it out
realistically, or he, he just saw acompletely different version of himself
than everybody else was experiencing.

Jake Brown (28:04):
It was, yeah.
It was definitely, um, projected, youknow, the masking of what Stan thought.
Well, first off, wantedeverybody to think mm-hmm.
And thought that we believed about him.
But it was, it was one, probably the mostawkward moment in my career because you're
sitting there, it stands like, reading offthis stuff and how great, you know, these

(28:27):
are my strengths and all this kinda stuff.
And like I remember like sittingthere like to this day I can remember
that fluorescent light humming aboveme because the room is so awkwardly
silent as everybody's not laughing,like looking around, like trying to
figure out like what's happening here.
Like everybody knew, like the internsknew this was not real, but Stan was

(28:50):
just like so proud of the results.
Like, look at how great I am.
I'm a great communicator and I'msuper organized and structured
and a philosophical thinker andemotions never come into play.
And I'm like, you were screamingat somebody 'cause the cookies
were late 10 minutes ago.
What are you dogging about?
Um, about, it was just that moment thatI remember thinking like so many of

(29:12):
these stories were even the name of thebook, where it came from was something
happened and I became aware of a gap ofwhat I expected or what I thought Stan
should be, you know, and it was like,then I immediately went to myself of.
As I progress to the book, as I geta little bit of growth, it's like
I can work on me and it's like,okay, I need to be self-aware.

(29:32):
Like, did I do this?
So I didn't put in the book,but I actually Huck, uh, my, you
know, my best friend in the book.
Um, actually he is my best friend.
He lives across the street.
Um, different name.
Um, but we actually talked, we

Dr. Chad Johnson (29:48):
had a talk.
It's Jason.
It's not Jason.
Okay.
I, I thought I'd at leastjust one in a million names.
I'd try.
I know.
Listen, I

Jake Brown (29:55):
Good try.
Go for it.
Yeah,

Regan Robertson (29:56):
stay focused.

Jake Brown (29:56):
Um, but we, uh, anyway, we had a conversation and it was just
kinda like, Hey, are my results, right?
Like, am I, am I right here?
Like, this is what I thought about myself.
I answered it from my perspective.
And he was like, like, this surprisedme a little bit, but I can see that.
And I'm like, okay.
So, you know, having somebody that youtrust kind of sand off some of the edges

(30:17):
or whatever, like, am I pretending here?
Am I lying to myself?
So I've been any kind of assessment,I bounce it off of other people.
Try to get that outside perspectivejust to make sure, whether it's my wife,
sometimes my kids, um, just other people.
I'm kinda like, I think thisabout myself, am I right?
Um, but I've never been so far off thateverybody in the room is just like, like,

(30:40):
what do we do with this information?
Like, it, it was

Dr. Chad Johnson (30:42):
so weird.
Jake, practical information forall the listeners though, I've done
employee evaluations where I havepeers evaluate, uh, you know, so
like, you like the 360 kind of thing.
I don't know.
What's that?
Uh, above, below beside likepeers, the, the boss peers.
That sounds really fancy.

(31:02):
Yes.
Yes to that, yes to that.
Um, and, but yeah, so I, and thatdidn't go over so hot, um, because
they felt like it was like trying to.
Uh, gotcha.
Or yeah, or whatever.
Maybe it was the way I did it.
I don't know.
I am a boss, by the way, so, you know,maybe I'm just not aware of how I did

(31:23):
it, but, um, I, I had a, I had a toughtime with that because I thought it would
be good for people to see when there'sa discrepancy between, well, your peers
rated you as a two out of five and youranked yourself as a five out of five.
Now it's okay.
When you ranked yourself as a two andthey rank them you as a two, then it's
just like, okay, you are very aware ofyour deficiency, but at least you see it.

(31:48):
Um, as opposed to being able tobring up as just like, okay, you
wrote down fives on everything.
Your peers said three on these threecategories were why the discrepancy.
But, um.
I thought it was going to be a hit.
It turned out it was just like,you know, I don't know, they
felt a little paranoid about it.
So for what it's worth to the listeners doit better than the way I did it, I guess.

(32:12):
Yeah.

Jake Brown (32:13):
I would say I love the idea and from a very high level,
hyper-focused, like, this will be,this would be helpful for me, this
would be helpful for other people.
One of the things that I always, um,you know, I learned from Stan and a
couple other places and then I've triedto implement it even with my kids.
It's, you know, like the whole ideaof like, you know, you wanna celebrate

(32:36):
'em in public unless they're superintroverted, like that could be painful.
And then you reprimandor you coach in private.
Yes.
Like you try to do that more and theidea is that you're trying to expose
something or show somebody wherethey should be coached and you're
dragging other people into thatconversation, especially on reviews.
'cause you go into the review.
Think of it this way, anytime.

(32:57):
The way that most reviews are wired,like the way that they're intentionally
designed is I'm interviewing for a raise.
Like that is how we go intothem as most employees, right?
It's like I, I want to skew all ofthe data because depending on how I
answer these, that determines if Iget a raise or promotion or whatever.
You go, okay, I don't wantother people's feedback.

(33:20):
I don't want like, I want this.
Like, and then if you get some peoplethat maybe aren't as healthy, that are
like, oh, well if I rate them low, thenI'll be the one up for the promotion.
And then it just, it gets messy.
'cause it's like anytime there'snot trust, anytime it's not a
safe place for honesty, then youcan't have, it becomes grenades.

(33:41):
So now you have

Dr. Chad Johnson (33:42):
two discrepancies, one bias in favor of the the first
person and then the other people canbe a. Well, a positive or negative,
it could be their best friendthat's trying to skew it up too.
You're right.
Wow.
It's
just

Jake Brown (33:57):
honesty dies when
it's not a good, like, if it's nota healthy place, honesty is not
valued like people are in it to win.
Yes.

Regan Robertson (34:08):
I was gonna say, Chad, let's talk, let's, let's,
Jake, let's slide this over to Betsy.
'cause let's, let's putBetsy under this frame.
So Betsy is a character in the book, Chad.
And when you're talking about like 360or peer reviewed, uh, you know, reviews
and whatnot, I've done, I've donemultiple different types of reviews.
Betsy would be horrible.
So she is this character that,uh, there's a bit of nepotism

(34:31):
going on, if I remember correctly.
And so she gets special treatment.
She's horrible.
Like she, she, she does not,she does not play by the rules.
She, she doesn't show up for,for like client meetings or if
she does, she's dressed sloppily.
Like there was, she was a, uh,a really great example of a bad.

Jake Brown (34:49):
Called her Bedhead Betsy.

Regan Robertson (34:50):
Wait, bedhead, Betsy.

Dr. Chad Johnson (34:53):
That sounds like a tra Do you remember Garbage Pail Kids?
You know, because that sounds like theperfect quintessential garbage pail kid.

Jake Brown (35:01):
I can see that.
I should have made a garbage pailkid card of her as part of the kit.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Regan Robertson (35:06):
Supposedly would have.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know if you said this or if Ijust like wrote this down in my notes,
but I, I, I have nepotism, Betsy, andI said, bad leaders let trash employees
stay and they don't deal with it.

Jake Brown (35:17):
Yeah.

Regan Robertson (35:19):
Um, yeah.
Tell us more.

Jake Brown (35:22):
Yeah.
Um, so in each, I like the wayyou did, you said that better.
Um, in, in each chapter what actuallyhappened is I, I was telling the stories
and then I needed to come back to themand I was like, but what's the thing?
You know, what's the thing?
And I started calling 'em nuggets and thenthat was funny 'cause it's all poop jokes.
Um, but I hand wrote them, so likeat the end of every chapter there's

(35:42):
this handwritten note where it's kindof like I wanted to be kinda like.
I wrote in the book tosay, here's the takeaway.
And on that one, with the bedhead,Betsy, the idea is that, you know, a
good leader takes out the trash, likeit's going to rot and ruin everything
else, but you gotta clean up likethat is part of the leader's job.
It's not comfortable, it'snot fun, even if it's your
fault that the trash is there.

(36:04):
Um, but like, I literally startedthe paperwork and everything trying
to fire this person and I was justtold no, like, we're not gonna
do that 'cause I don't want to.
And I was like, you'vegotta be kidding me.

Regan Robertson (36:19):
It's, it's crazy to me how much it, it brings down the entirety
of the group when things like that happen.
It sets a really bad example and, andit just ends up, it's like an infection.
I think It just, it, it startsto fester and, and go down.
And so to the point of it, I thinkwhen you're aligned, like when the
team's aligned, when the leadershipis great, then, then it's, it's

(36:40):
easy to get to get peer reviewsbecause the trust and the honesty.
There.
You know, Jake, I feel likethis entire book was actually
a quest to reclaim your joy.
I like, yeah, yeah.
Who doesn't love a quest?
It felt like a quest to, to recapturejoy and, and live through things and
try to, to have fun along the way.

(37:02):
And I, you know, you start the bookoff with, with your ninja, like office
shenanigans and, and playfulness and,and part of it made me sad because how
many times in my own life have I really,I can get super hyper, hyper-focused,
especially towards a mission or a project.
And I do not build in enoughtime, I think, to have fun,

(37:22):
like on the daily basis.
I'm better now, but there wereyears when I just, I was so
focused on the goal at hand.
Like I, I, I felt like, you know, thedogs at the racetrack where they have
the little rabbit on the stick and itfelt like, I felt like that's where I
was always going for a lot of my career.
And, um, and, you know.
In all of that, there's just so many,there's months, there's years that can

(37:43):
get, that can just go by the wayside.
And I feel like throughout this bookand throughout your, your decade of
experience, you were that for like theteam you tried to help them keep up
the joint, even in a toxic environment.
Do you think that's justyour personality in general?

Jake Brown (37:59):
I think a lot of that is my personality.
It is.
Um, I mean, listeners you probablyknow I have a DHD you probably
picked up at that really quickly.
Um, but what I found out lookingback was that, um, it was horrible.
And um, there's a line where I talk aboutlike as we were going, you know, that
fun sparked joy and joy brought growth.

(38:21):
That's how it worked for me.
And in order to survive,I needed people to smile.
I needed things, I neededdisruption in the pain.
And I just went to what I knew.
And it was, you know, I was the kidwho was in the back of the class
being told, sit still doodling.
Like I, I was that kid like I was.
Now I'm a grownup version ofthat kid and it's allowed, 'cause

(38:42):
I built my business this way.
But it's like this idea where there hadto be fun, there had to be disruption
because I was like, something inme was dying and it just happened.
We weren't allowed to talk.
We weren't allowed to do stuff.
And like you mentioned hallwayassassin chapter one, it's like we
just started playing little, I meanit's like we are seven year olds out
in the hall playing cops and robberslike shooting each other and stuff.

(39:03):
Like it is ridiculous.
And it just happened.
It was just like, it just kind ofpopped out and it was like, and
then more people saw that sparkwhere we were kind of alive.
It was just started with the two ofus and then more people joined and
people like they found that fun.
But here's the thing, we actually werehitting our goals and projections more

(39:24):
because everybody was fired up andfueled and we were running faster.
But at the same time, that hyper focuson the goals, I think that's great.
And I think somebodyat the company should.
Be monitoring that, you know,there's has to be somebody,
otherwise we're just having a bunchof fun on what niece is dying.
Grown up.
Yeah, sure.
Well not even just be the grownup,but it could just be something
where you're like checking in.
You're kinda like, okay, arewe still facing the goal?

(39:44):
Okay guys, sure.
It's lunchtime.
We had a fun morning back to work.
Um, that can happen.
I've had to be that person in situationsand that became a dichotomy of I'm
the distraction and the driver.
Like, you know, I have to, I physicallywould be like, Hey, headphones on.
We're working.
Like I had to physically signalpeople that it's work time where I'm

(40:05):
headphones on, like, this is our workout.
Like this is what we're doing.
Um, but I don't thinkchasing goals is bad.
Like I have a lot of fun chasing biggoals and driving things forward.
I sometimes have trouble celebratingbecause of most of my career
when I'm driving and I hit abig thing and I have a break.
Like for instance, thebook, I launched my book.

(40:25):
I put it out there in the world.
People started like, it wentway better than I expected.
It was received very well.
I mean, I was.
I was like, man, I hope 50 peoplebuy this sometime in my lifetime.
Yes.
Let's just say that pre-orders were,it has now surpassed 5,000 copies.
And I was like, hoping for 50.
I was kinda like, I don't wannatell people that I wanna sell 50.

(40:47):
Like, we'll see what happens.
Um, but having that big billiongrabbing into it, and I launched the
book, and to be honest, by the timeit was live and I got everything
done and it's, it's for sale.
I was so tired of it.
I like almost hated it.
It was like, I'm readyto do something else.
Yeah.
And the way my brain worksis I crossed the finish line.
The way that I celebrateis I start the next race.

(41:08):
Yep.
And I had to like, put in some buffers and go,
okay, we're gonna celebrate.
And my wife being awesome actuallyscheduled a vacation and we went
and hiked in, uh, we went and hikedin Colorado without cell service.
So I launched my book and thenext week I was off the grid.
I came back and I was excited andI loved it again, but it was one of

(41:29):
those things like she knew that aboutme and protected me from myself.
'cause I was about to dive intowhatever the next thing on my list was.
Um, so I think having the fun, havingthose disruptions, scheduling them
and protecting them is important.
Having flexibility for the fun willhelp people, but at the same time, it's
like if you just schedule, if you have abunch of forced fun, like it's not fun.

(41:53):
No.
Like I talk about, man, another chapterin there is the, uh, fantasy football.
Like, yes, we were forced to dofantasy football and nobody wanted to.
And it was just like, all right, great.
It's like, this is gonna bea great culture experience.
Like we're everybody's gonna love it.
And we were just like,this is so horrible.
So like, you can't force the fun,but you have to leave room for

(42:14):
people to overlap and waste time.
And it doesn't have to be a lot.
It just, it has to be some so thatcommunity so that they will like each
other so that they can move forward.
And it can be.
Little things like movies duringlunchtime, like, you know, we would
watch sometimes a movie across fourdays during our lunch breaks where we'd
just sit down together if you wanted to.

(42:34):
You could in the conference room or not.
Just little things like that that it is,it's just like if it sparks and it sounds
like fun, ask if people wanna do it.
Um, but then at the same timeyou have to move things forward
or you stop getting paid.
So

Regan Robertson (42:53):
fantasy football was on my list of, of notes because of the
forced fund and everyone has had tosuffer through a pizza party that they
didn't want to necessarily be part of.
And it is, um, you know, by the way,

Jake Brown (43:05):
if you are a leader and you are bringing in Little Caesar's
Pizza thinking that grownups aregonna like be happy or it's worth
something, like it's just wrong.
Like a pizza party isnot community like it is.
The way I think of it is like.
If you've ever been to a foodbank or somewhere where people
are like getting food, like nobodywants to actually be seen there.

(43:28):
They're there 'cause they need helpand they're there for the help.
That is how you feel going to a mostcompany, pizza parties, it's kind of
like, well, I don't have enough time to goanywhere, so I guess I'll grab this pizza.
And you're looking around at all theother people that are trapped in a
situation they don't wanna be in.
And you're like, you know, there'shope somewhere else out there.
I can't wait to not beat this pizza party.
Like, I want my lifeto be better than this.

(43:49):
Right.

Regan Robertson (43:50):
Okay, so that's a beautiful like flip because this book
is, as you said, it, it goes from, youknow, complaining about the situation,
which is kind of a victim mindset, right?
Like, I'm stuck in this and I, Ijust like leapt up when I heard
in the book you say like, I'mresponsible for this, I can leave.
Like, I'm not a prisonerhere, I can do this.

(44:11):
She was so good.
I was like, yeah.
And you have this like acronym wipeand, and it gives you this like
assessment tool to how you can eithercontinue to show up or, you know,
you are no longer in alignment.
So, so tell me if I'm wrong, here it is.
It stands for winner,intern, prisoner and expert.
Right.

(44:32):
Yep.
So along with this acronym, you alsohave when you buy the book a kit, like
you can go to your, like a specialURL and you've got a kit with like
downloadables in it that support this.
But can you tell our listeners about thewhite acronym and, and how it helps you?
Kind of how it, I, I mean, I don't knowif you tell me more about it because
it's a brilliant, brilliant, the simple,like, I know exactly where I'm at in

(44:56):
this moment and how I can show up andown my life and be the hero of my story.

Jake Brown (45:01):
Yeah, for sure.
Um, so it came about 'cause I was,again, I was struggling and trying
to figure myself out and then Istarted using it during people's
reviews, their quarterly reviews.
I was just trying to figure out, likeI, I was trying to come up with like a
culture scale, like, are they still here?
Can I count on them for another quarter?
Like I was kind of self-preservationof my role for the people who worked

(45:22):
for me, like I was grading them.
And that's kind of how it first started.
And.
The idea that I started looking atfor myself, and every month I would
grade myself on it just to see whoam I showing up for other people
and what is my role in this space?
And it's, we mentioned earlier, it's the,um, you just asked two simple questions.
Am I aligned?
Like do I align with the boss, withthe company, the vision, the team?

(45:44):
Like am I a part of this movement or not?
Yes.
No.
So it's, you know, that'sone, it's a two by two grid.
So on the grid it's a two by twogrid for the white framework.
And what you can do is you askyourself the two questions, and the
first one it's, you know, the questionon the left axis is, am I aligned?
And it's either, yes, I'm alignedwith the boss, the team, the mission,

(46:08):
the company where we're moving.
Am I a part of that movement or not?
Yes, no, super simple.
And then you just circle that row and thenvertically it's am I able, and the way I
define able is, are you able to or not?
Do you have the skills and areyou allowed to do your job?
And you circle it.
And as I came up with this, those werethe two questions I wanted people to know.

(46:29):
And I was trying, trying to come up witha, a system or whatever, and I love two
by two grids because it just, you getto ignore everything else in the world.
These are the only twothings that we're answering.
And I came up with that, and theneventually I just started naming
them and I had to adjust one of them,but I thought it was hilarious to
have a book called Leadership andthen the acronym Be Wipe, right?

(46:49):
Um, and then, but the winneris, and then so you take that
assessment real fast, simple.
You can do that rightnow in half a second.
And then, um, each, there's a couplechapters in the book where it actually
dives into each one of those, kindof describes them a little bit more.
Um, and the intern, I think of themas like a new puppy that is super

(47:10):
excited and pees all over the kitchen.
Like that's the image that I get.
You know, we all know like somebody'ssuper excited, they're aligned.
They're, you know, they're superhappy, they're passionate to be there.
They have no skill.
Whatsoever.
And they just get allexcited and make a mess.
And everybody's kind of like,can somebody go clean that up?
Like that is the role when youare an intern, and that's fine.
You acknowledge it.

(47:30):
And then the steps are, you can slide,you know, beside, you can either get
the skills and go to the winner or youslide down and you become a prisoner
where it's just like, you're just there.
You know, you're, you're stuck.
Um, as the intern, the prisoner,they're not able, and they're not,
you know, they're not aligned.
They're just there.

(47:52):
They have no leverage to move forward.
There's not that, that's the worst,the darkest part where you don't
even have hope to find another job.
'cause you're kind oflike, I'm just stuck.
Um, but it's also the easiest one tochange because you either align or
you get able, like you, you just pickone of those and start developing it

(48:13):
and it's the easiest one to move from.
Um, the expert is, um.
What I think is actuallythe worst one to be in.
'cause you're kind of a mercenary,you're the hired hand and you're
also the fastest one to get fired.
Um, because as long as a bad boss or aslong as a team needs what you provide
your specialization, then you're valuable.

(48:34):
But as soon as an unhealthyplace doesn't need you anymore,
you're not aligned, you're theeasiest one to kick off the bus.
You're, you're also the one kind ofwith a target painted on your back if
something goes sideways with a client.
And like, if a, if a non self-awareor a bad boss has to choose between
their relationship with the clientand you, you're gone like so fast.

(48:56):
Um,

Dr. Chad Johnson (48:57):
yeah.
All right.
So here's my question, intern.
Are you able, um.
One way that you described it is,are you able, from the ability of the
employee, what if someone is aligned butnot able to because the boss is, are,
are they still in that intern category?

Jake Brown (49:19):
Yep.
If they are not allowedto do their job Correct.
Like they have the skillsand they're not allowed.
Yes.
Yeah.
And I do talk about a couple waysto, um, get outta that, for instance.
Um, so if you're not allowed,we talk about reverse delegation
in the book, and that is Yes.
A way that you getinformation out of the boss.
Another thing is to haveconversations where you say,
you asked for me to do this.

(49:39):
I did this.
Did you expect something different?
Yes.
Yep.
That rings a bell because when I, whenI started using that phrasing, like even
with coaching and consulting clients,like, um, one of my biggest things with
marketing agencies is you should notdo revisions if you're doing revisions.
That's because there was amisalignment and expectations
at the beginning and the end.
If you go back and say, this is what weset out to do, this is where we did it.

(50:04):
Did I misunderstand?
If you're quoting, like if you goto a grownup and you say, you said
this, so I did it, did you lie to me?
Like, that's basically whatthe conversation is saying
without being abrasive.
You know, you're like, so going back andgoing saying, you told me to do this.
I did it.
Did I misunderstand the expectations?

(50:24):
Like was the expectation different?

Dr. Chad Johnson (50:26):
You know what?
Go funny to along those lines.
I have a a, I have a, a, a,an internal marketing guy.
We were at lunch the other day and hesaid, you know, I made a design for a guy.
'cause he does side stuff.
And, um, and, and I'm cool with that.
Like, but he, he does his, uh, side stuff.
And someone said, you know, Ijust want like this leaf, uh,

(50:46):
and, but I want it to be simple,you know, and then our, our name.
And so Dean says, okay,I'll tell you what.
So he makes, uh, what was it?
It was a maple leaf.
And so he takes a maple leaf and he,uh, puts the name on it and stuff
like that and shows it to the guy.
And he says, there, it's simple.
It has the leaf on it like youwanted, um, what do you think?

(51:08):
And then he goes, well,I could have done that.
He was like, are you kidding me?
Like you, you, you said thisis, you wanted it simple
and this is what you wanted.
What more do you want?
And he's like, you know, like,how do you want it changed?
And he's like, I don't know.
Like, and so it was, I think it wasfrustrating right along that line

(51:31):
because it's like, what do you mean?
Like there should be no revision to this.
This is actually exactly what you askedfor, except for maybe you don't know what
you want more, more than you realized.

Jake Brown (51:42):
And that's, that's the point where you go back to the
beginning and you go, you lied to me.
Like, and it, and a point for a leader,what I would say is if you delegate
something and then you change the rulesalong the way, you did lie to them.
'cause you said it wasready for them to work on.
Yeah.
Like it wasn't their job yet.
If, if I'm a leader and I handoff something, I delegate it.
And then I come back and I say, oh, jk,like I'm changing everything on you.

(52:04):
Like, you know, oh, I handed this off toyou and you worked on it for two weeks.
And, um, during that two weeks, Ifinally thought about the project,
and this is what I meant to ask for.
Like, I did lie to you when I toldyou it was your responsibility.
Like it wasn't yours yet.
That was the lie that was told.
And I found not because of other people,I found out because I had a good friend,

(52:25):
employee who pulled me aside and said, wehate working on these projects for you.
And I was like, the friend with the,you know, just punched me in the throat.
And I was like, what do youmean you hate working on these?
And I found out likethat's what I was doing.
I was trying to allow theminto the project earlier
because I wasn't allowed to.
Well, sure.
Let's go ahead and start the project.

(52:46):
But I wasn't actuallygiving them the project.
And one of the, the tools for thereverse delegation, um, we call
it the gold medal delegation, um,because it was during the Olympics.
We came up with this and it's not,um, metal, like it's M-E-D-D-L-E
because it's like the boss keptmeddling and getting involved in stuff.
So this was like how we weregoing to stop that from happening.

(53:06):
And it's just a simple, like it'sa worksheet, but if you ask these
questions in this way, it actually helpsyou make sure that the expectations
are aligned and it's writtensomewhere and you can go back to it.
And then when you presentinformation, when you're done with
a task, you can prove that you'redone and you can prove that you
actually did the task as assigned.

(53:27):
And if the leader has to come back andgo, yeah, I assigned the task wrong,
that's a different conversation.
And you can go, great, as longas we both know that's on you.

Dr. Chad Johnson (53:36):
That's right.
Don't

Jake Brown (53:37):
say it out loud.
Admitted it.
Yeah.
And as the employee, theygo, well the project changed.
Now you're mad at the boss'sbehavior, not the project.
And it's not my fault whether ornot I bring that with the boss.
That's a personal, you know,structural organizational thing.
Yep.
But at least I know I cansurvive that situation.
And my favorite, so I don't evenremember if I covered this part in

(53:59):
the book, but we, I came up with theidea of watching, we were watching the
Olympics and the guy comes down andthe lady interviews him, and then he
didn't know how to get off the course.
Like he's looking aroundtrying to find the exit and
it's like on international tv.
And the guy's like, I don't know whereto go and I don't speak English well.
And like, I felt bad for him, butI realized that at the end of every

(54:21):
project, there are so many times thatthings are delegated or whatever, that
it's like, I finished the course, nowwhat, what do I do with the project?
How do I get it off my plate?
Do I just like close it?
Do I throw it away?
Do I send an email?
And that's the, the exitthat's like the very bottom.
It's kind of like.
Do the work and tell somebodydo the work and close it.

(54:42):
Like, how does somebody exit this task?
It's no longer theirs 'cause it's closed.
And when I watched that guy skiing,I was like, that's the frustration
that I'm having right now isI finish all of these courses.
Like I finished everything.
I, I finished this massive task.
Like I'll do an education exhibitfor the state fair of Texas.
And I get to the bottom and then Ilook around and go, um, I got approval.

(55:07):
When can this stop being my stress?
Like, where does this go?
Where's

Regan Robertson (55:11):
the handoff?

Jake Brown (55:12):
Yeah.
Like, like when does the bossacknowledge that I'm done?
Like that's what I need to know.

Regan Robertson (55:17):
Oh my gosh, this is what we're, we're gonna
have to do an episode too.
Because really, I mean, thinkof the patient handoffs, Chad
and the audience from that.
And when, when, when doesthe customer journey end?
When does the patient journey end?
When do we officially know?
Are they pulled through?
That's, that's.
Incredible advice.
Um, Jake, thank you for spendingso much time with us on this.

(55:39):
This is an incredible topic.
One thing I'm going to say, I wanna, Iwanna leave us with this because you were
an incredible advisor and coach yourself.
The two questions in Wipe alone, uh,whether you are listing right now and
you're an employee who's stuck in abad situation and trying to figure
your way through it, or if you are aboss yourself because, um, that can

(56:00):
be not a fun walk in the park either.
I think you can definitely, I know forsure you can ask yourself those questions.
And if you find yourself not inthe winter category and where you
wanna be, everyone benefits fromsupport and, uh, dental practices.
You all know that, that Chad and Maggieand I have talked often about being
brave and niching in and really goingafter what you authentically want as a

(56:23):
business leader, as a practice owner.
And, um, and sometimesyou need some support.
So, uh, I have Jake's permission to share.
You said it yourself.
You have the A DHD, and as a coachyourself, you, uh, you decided,
you know, I'm, I'm doing well.
I'm, I'm okay, but I'm gonna, I havethis challenge to niche in, so I'm
going to really narrow down my targetaudience and help a DHD leaders.

(56:45):
And I was on a call hearing itwhen, um, this story came through
and you just shot it out of theroof and been very successful.
So congratulations on your niche andreaching out to all the A DHD leaders.
Um, if you could take us home, you know,what is the, what is the biggest thing
that gives you joy from now being on theother side of all of this lives experience

(57:07):
that's, that's turned into wisdom.
And, um, where do you get your mostdeepest satisfaction as you coach
others through their own process?

Jake Brown (57:17):
Man, here we go with the heavy punches.
Again, man, these are a big question.
Um, what is the meaning of your life?
Um, well, yeah, honestly, um, my.
I had a great moment this week, and thisis something that I was talking to one
of my clients and we just went throughsome stuff and he goes, he was explaining

(57:38):
what was going on right now in thefrustration in a c certain situation.
And I said, man, can you even imaginehaving that problem three months ago?
And he was like, no.
It was just this fact that he had grown,he had transitioned from, you know,
this, what was to the problem that he'shaving today, what he's working on.
Like, he can't even imagine theproblems that he was having then.

(58:01):
Now, like he has grown.
He has come to that point.
That is my favorite part, especiallyas I'm working with, you know, uh,
leaders that have a DHD where theygo, oh, this is how I'm wired.
Now we can build the business likethis makes sense that this works.
It's like, um, real quick, when Ithink of a DHD, it's a collection.

(58:23):
It's not design flaws, it's acollection of design features.
When I make that transition, it'slike, these are just features
that nobody else knew what to dowith a misaligned expectation.
Mm-hmm.
And I, when I work with business leadersand it goes, yeah, this is all here.
Maybe it's not your job to do.
Maybe we figure this out.
How do we work around that?
Or how do we just ignore it?
It doesn't actually matter.

(58:43):
You don't have to do that.
Like for me, um, Ican't schedule anything.
I can't handle my own calendar.
I am not a grownup when it comes tounderstanding time, but my 15-year-old
son will do it for 20 bucks.
Um, it's like, you know what?
He will handle that for me.
And I'm like, that'ssomething easy to handle.
Um, not too long ago, I, I wentto an event and it took me three
hours to try and book my flight.

(59:06):
And it's with Southwest and youhave to buy it through Southwest.
You can't, there aren't options.
Like it still took me that long to tryand figure it out and I'm like, I'm done.
And my son's like, boop, 15 minutes.
Everything's booked and ready to go.
And I'm like, fail.
I. Uh, when

Regan Robertson (59:20):
we no fail, that's a thousand percent.
I are relating so hard right now.
Um, so

Jake Brown (59:26):
when those moments happen, like where somebody realizes that they
have, like when we feel guilty thatwe've been carrying all this stuff or we
feel like we're failing, and it's kindalike, wait, that's, other people had that
expectation of me and it wasn't fair.
That's not my expectation.
When we realize that, and then we canbuild a business on top of that, that
is, that's kind of my happy placeis I get to help people do that.

(59:49):
But then when they realize it, and thenthey may, they start changing their
actions and they give themselves the,the ability to not have freedom to go,
that's a design feature and I'm using it.
So long answer.
Sorry.

Regan Robertson (01:00:00):
You beautiful answer.
All right.
So I know leadership has soldthousands of copies, so my
assumption is they can get it on.
Where books are sold, what willyou drop your details for us here?
So if people want, including

Dr. Chad Johnson (01:00:13):
Audible, which he reads it himself and Jake,
thank you for reading it yourself.

Jake Brown (01:00:17):
I love that.
So I'm dyslexic as well, and I amterrified of reading in public.
And it took me two months of talking togood friends and my wife and stuff to
convince me to read it in my own voice.
And I recorded it the firstchapter, like 12 times, yes.
Until I was not embarrassed.
And I sent it to people, even to a couplestrangers to have them listen to it.

(01:00:41):
And I just realized I'm reallygood at telling these stories.
And I just would prompt andread through it and it was
like, okay, so I am reading it.
But it was the biggest fear I had,like in my grownup career life, was I'm
going to read in front of people and I'mgoing to ask them to pay me for that.
Like it was this massive imposter syndromefear thing that I was dealing with.

(01:01:03):
So thank you for that encouragement.
How, because it was thescariest grownup thing,

Dr. Chad Johnson (01:01:09):
like work thing.
I did.

Jake Brown (01:01:12):
I,

Regan Robertson (01:01:12):
what's so funny is you sound so great in it too.
Like you, I felt like Iwas in the room with you.
You are a very, very wonderful orator.
Like it was, it's

Dr. Chad Johnson: conversational, literally. (01:01:20):
undefined

Regan Robertson (01:01:22):
Yeah, it was really, it was really good.
Okay, so Jake, wheredo people buy the book?
How do they get connected with you?
What are your details?

Jake Brown (01:01:29):
Yeah, so to buy the book Fastest Way, it's on
Amazon, um, it's on Audible.
Um, if you go to the website,you can link to it from there.
The website is leader shit.co.
Or if, um, you're concerned,you can go to leaders hit.co.
That's right.
It'll take you there and you canlearn more about the book there.
You can click on it.
Um, you can actually find methere if you want to as well.

Regan Robertson (01:01:51):
Thank you, Jake.
This has been an incrediblehour of your time.
We appreciate you.
Um, thanks for being super brave andcontinuing to face your fears because
people are transforming as a result of it.