June 18, 2025 • 44 mins
What’s your plan for walking away from dentistry, and will it actually work? Angela Golden shares what most dentists get wrong about exit planning and why waiting could cost you your legacy.
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Angela Golden (00:00):
No, it's, it, it is a, an emotional hurdle because they've built
something so that's, they put theirblood, sweat, and tears into for so many
years that it's like selling a baby.
Welcome to another episode
Regan Robertson (00:19):
of Everyday Practices.
I am here with my beautiful co-hosts, Dr.Chad Johnson and Dr. Maggie Augustine.
You just heard.
From Angela Golden, our guesttoday who has kicked us off.
Chad and Maggie, before we bring Angelafully in, how are you both doing today?
What are you excited about on
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (00:39):
this episode?
It's been a week, so, um, it'llbe nice to maybe transition
from dealing with leadership andfantasize about walking away.
From
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (2): this, um, gnarly teenager. (00:56):
undefined
Yeah.
That is the dental practice.
That is the dental practice.
Dr. Chad Johnson (01:04):
Uh, for me personally, I've been in a position in the last
year or or so that I'm so frustrated.
I'm just like, I don'teven care about selling it.
I'm just looking to maximize what I haveright now and worry about that later.
And that might resonate with somepeople 'cause it's just like I'm, I am.
Enough associates in and I feel.
(01:28):
Like, um, I'm inadequate as aleader and or that, uh, they
just want to learn and run.
And so that's always tough too.
And all those factors playinto what if I didn't sell it?
What if I just.
You know, went to the end of mylease and just said, you know what?
Anyone want any extrapaper or computer supplies?
(01:51):
Get a keyboard if you want.
'cause I'm closing on on Friday.
Screw this.
So, uh, I, I've been through thewhole range of emotions, but that's
kind of where I sit currently.
And, uh, so when I saw this comingup, Angela, I was excited to, uh, to.
You know, walk through that, as youhad mentioned earlier, with the, um,
(02:14):
the psychological counseling of it all.
So can you first start us off bytelling us your CIPA certified and what
exactly that means, so that way thelisteners can know, uh, the context
of what the world is he talking about.
Regan Robertson (02:31):
And who the heck is Angela?
Angela Golden (02:32):
Yes.
Well, um.
To start off with, I am Angelaand I am a certified exit planning
advisor who helps dentists.
I focus specifically on dentalpractices and growing the value of
their practice before they sell.
(02:53):
And as I spoke earlierabout selling your baby, um.
When I bought a practice back in a fewyears, I'll say a few years ago, um, put
my whole heart, soul, everything I had,my husband and I spent weekends in there.
Um, spent the whole shutdowntime during COVID remodeling
(03:16):
and everything that we did.
It was just like, oh, now what do I do?
Regan Robertson (03:24):
I didn't even realize that you were a practice owner, Angela.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (2) (03:28):
Yes, I was.
Regan Robertson (03:29):
What were some of the, what were some of the signals
that you saw, you know, duringthose, those frustrating times too?
What were some of the signals that,that you were like, okay, I'm.
Thinking about, about an exit here,whether it is I am, you know, on one end
of the spectrum, I'm super frustratedand ready to go open up a Quiznos all
the way over to, you know, this ismy baby and I really care about this.
(03:50):
Which we know it's comit's hashtag complicated.
We, we know how business ownership goes.
Angela Golden (03:55):
And the, the emotional aspect of it is your team.
You've built a team around you thathas become part of your family.
You've got your patients who havealso become such dear friends.
And you know, in my opinion, theywere part of my family as well.
So I had such deep relationships witheverybody and that's when, when I
(04:20):
discuss exit planning with doctors, um.
There's the value of the practice,but there's also the value of the
intangible assets or the intellectualproperty that you have, and that
is your, um, we call 'em the fourCs, but that's your human capital.
That's your employees.
(04:41):
Your patients are your customer capital.
Your structural capital, capital,which is all of the insides of the
practice, and then your social capital,which is all of your reviews, um, what
patients say about you, your socialmedia following, um, all of that.
So those are the types of things thatwhen you're looking at exiting your
(05:03):
practice and increasing the valueof the practice before you exit,
is really honing in on those fourthings and making those things as.
The most value because there's a, a, oneof the things that I learned in my CPA
certification was that 80% of businessvalue is in those four intangible assets.
Regan Robertson (05:28):
Which one of those assets with all the dentists that you've worked
with is the biggest, uh, gap to close?
Angela Golden (05:38):
That would be the customer capital.
Really?
Tell me more.
Why num?
Well, it's kind of equal betweenhuman capital and customer capital.
Your customer capital.
How many active patients do you have inyour practice and how many of those active
patients are not scheduled right now?
(06:00):
So rein reactivation is huge when it comesto increasing the value of your practice.
It's reactivation, re-engagement.
Those kind of things are, they work handin hand with getting more treatment on the
books, more production, more collection.
That's all gonna increase the value.
The human capital is if aperson's gonna want to buy your
(06:22):
practice, are your employees.
And the systems that youhave in place sellable.
Regan Robertson (06:31):
Tell us what makes it sellable.
This is exciting to me becauseit feels, it is so intangible.
It is.
So humans are, you know, it's messy.
And so that to me is like, you'reputting a system around this.
This is exciting.
Angela Golden (06:41):
Yeah.
So you look at, forinstance, your hygienist.
Your hygienist will most.
Practices when you sell, they want tokeep your staff because your staff has
the relationships with the patients.
For instance, your hygienist, they seethe patients every three to six months.
They know their names,they know their families.
(07:01):
They have that.
Actual relationship.
The dental assistants have the samerelationship with the patients.
They know them and the anybody whowants to buy into a practice or
buy that practice wants to keepas many of those key employees so
that you have that relationshipthat the patients are used to.
(07:24):
But with that said, you also haveto build the relationship with the
outside world and the potentialpatients that you could have and the
potential employees that you could have.
So it's something about building those,um, I. The relationships with everybody
and really honing in on what the riskfactors are and making sure that the
(07:49):
patients understand that so that thephilosophy of cares can be intertwined
with whoever's gonna buy the practice.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (07:57):
Let's step back for a minute because I think the way
that we traditionally have looked atselling a practice has been, you know,
we practice for a fair amount of time oruntil we are too tired or until we hurt
ourselves, and then we sell our practice.
And generally when that happens, we.
(08:17):
We sell the practice at a time whenit's not worth a whole lot, meaning
that that practice has reduced invalue, or at least is, is, is generally
not an investment that we haverelied on in our portfolio at least.
Um, but there's a differentway of, of doing this.
(08:38):
There's a way of creating value inour practice and considering that
an investment in our portfolio, um.
Talk to us about how to do thatand when to consider walking
away, or maybe not, maybe that'snot the right term of putting it.
(08:58):
Um, talk to us about exiting ourpractice as owners in preserving as
much value in it so that we walk awaywith those coffers filled as much as
Angela Golden (09:13):
as they can be.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (2) (09:15):
Hmm.
Angela Golden (09:16):
When I, when I meet with the doctors, I do
a few assessments and one of.
Obviously I do a valuation of the practiceand where it's at now and where the
potential of through these assessments,where it could potentially be, and whether
you sell to a private owner or a privateequity or a DSO or something else, there's
(09:37):
all these different ways to look at it.
So then with that being said, I takeyou through a journey of what your
life's gonna look like after you exit.
What are the.
The things that you're wanting to achieve.
Are you gonna do missions?
Are you gonna go tour the world?
Are you going to, what's your plan?
(09:58):
Are you gonna golf every day?
Because a lot of doctorsdon't have a plan.
They don't know whatthey're gonna do, and.
They just think, I'm gonna practicedentistry till I die because I
don't have any other hobbies.
And there's so manydentists that are that way.
They don't have any other hobbies.
Their practice has anengulfs their entire life.
(10:21):
So when they think about exiting,they need to have a plan, they
need to have a vision, and thenwe need to fund that vision and
how are we going going to do that?
Dr. Chad Johnson (10:34):
So.
Uh, thinking along those lines, if,
I'm trying to think of how to describe it.
But social media I think has a good anda bad within the context, specifically
of the pressure of retiring with Xdollars and, um, I think there are,
(10:59):
um, there's, how to describe it.
There is.
There.
There are some who need to retirewith a lot of money because
they sure know how to spend it.
And then there are others thatcould retire quite comfortably and
live easy because they just spend.
Um, frugally and, um, but on, on Facebookfor example, you see people, you know,
(11:25):
like, oh, I'm gonna try and retirewith 20 million and stuff like that.
And then indirectly or directly,that can cause pressure.
I mean, I don't have 20 million,should I retire with 20 million?
How could I even get 2 million?
You know, like, let alone 20 million.
And then you go, wait a second, this guyhas a $5 million home in Miami and he's.
(11:49):
Got a hundred thousanddollars of equity into it.
And, uh, here I'm in Iowa and you know,I, I might have more of my home paid for
and plan to just, you know, mow my lawnand take walks through the neighborhood.
And that doesn't cost as much astaking your yacht out, you know,
(12:09):
from your million dollar, um,dock, you know, so are, are there.
Are there, uh, surprises to somedentists when they go, you know, I
actually don't need a lot of money,because it seems as though a lot
of times the the, the pressure isyou'll need more than you expect.
But it's like, is it everlike you, you might actually
(12:31):
need less than you'd expect.
Angela Golden (12:33):
Yeah, exactly.
And, and through the assessmentsthat I go through with, with the
doctors, um, I talk about with them,you know, are you gonna be taking
care of your family, um, your mother?
Are you gonna need to puther in a care facility?
How much is that gonna cost a month?
And going through, um, different steps,how the first step is de-risking yourself.
(12:59):
The next step is preparing yourself.
Those two steps kind ofintertwine a little bit.
Um, because you're, what do you
Dr. Chad Johnson (13:07):
mean by preparing yourself?
Angela Golden (13:09):
Preparing yourself financially and emotionally.
Okay.
Emotionally.
So when I first started this,um, podcast with you, we talked
about selling your baby becausethat is exactly what you're doing.
You've put your life into this and mm-hmm.
(13:31):
You want, you want what'sbest for your baby, right?
But you also want what's bestfor yourself emotionally.
And so a lot of times we have to prepare,you know, de-risk and then prepare.
And that's then we decide are we.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (13:50):
Is there a good time to start talking to someone?
You know, like, um, I'm, I'malmost 50 and I, I don't plan on
stopping to practice dentistry.
I'm not plan.
I don't wanna sell my practice either.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (2) (14:05):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (14:06):
Um, I don't wanna transition out.
When should I talk to someone like you?
Angela Golden (14:14):
Well.
I, I feel this is my own opinion that exitplanning is business planning because you
never know what's gonna happen tomorrow.
I.
Regan Robertson (14:25):
I can't say enough about, about this is, this
is for any time in your life.
Um, and, and yes, full disclosure, we allknow that I don't own a dental practice
and I won't own a dental practice.
It doesn't matter whether youown a dental practice or not.
Knowing your why and your purpose andwhere you're going, the universe in and
of itself starts to align you to that.
(14:47):
And I met with my financial advisorseveral years ago, so I'm in my forties.
For my full disclosure, and he helped methrough an exercise that sounds eerily
similar, Angela, to where I wanted to go.
And Chad, to your point, the why that sitsunderneath, why do you want 20 million?
I don't think it actuallymatters the number that you have.
(15:08):
It's the why and the purpose.
That is what drives me anyway.
And I think that's what drives humans.
So I said the same thing, notwith the money, but I said, okay.
I'm gonna retire when I'm 53 becausemy son will be graduating and I wanted,
and he was like, okay, well tell mewhat retirement means to you, Angela.
So he like started saying,what hobbies do you wanna do?
(15:29):
Um, what kinda lifestyle do you want?
How many vacations do you wanna take?
All of those.
It was the best exercise everbecause what I discovered was,
oh, I don't really wanna retire.
I just don't wanna worklike five days a week.
I, I still, I'm never gonnanot be passionate Maggie, like
you with the dental practice.
Like I'm never not gonna wanna be doingsomething, but my lifestyle will change.
(15:50):
So we talked about the purposeand the why, and now this many
years in, I'm so happy when I get.
On a call with him, and I have, Ihave a father and a father-in-law, two
wildly different like outcomes for theirlives and their retirement lifestyles.
Um, that run the gamut of, you know, um,wanting to do things versus being frugal.
(16:10):
It's what you want andit's, it's crafting that.
And then to me, I don't know about youAngela, and so this is leading up to
a question in that when they discoverthat purpose and get to their, why
does the emotional hurdles like thebridge over into planning become.
Easier for them.
For me, it was, um, yeah.
Okay.
Angela Golden (16:31):
Yeah.
It gives them a, a purpose ofwhat, of what their goal is.
I mean, you have to have a purposeand when you actually write it down,
it's like having a vision board.
This is what that vision board isgonna look like after I sell my
practice or after I cut, hire anassociate and cut back to two days
a week instead of five days a week.
(16:53):
It's just.
Incrementally, this is where I'm gonna go.
It might be five years, it mightbe 10 years, it might be 20 years.
But planning that and getting that visionis, is what's really, really important.
Dr. Chad Johnson (17:06):
So tell us an example, Angela.
Um, I mean, so if someonedidn't prepare properly.
Um, and have the glide path, therunway, um, to, to land the plane,
uh, properly, you know, what did thatend up costing them or, you know,
like how did that difficulty play out?
Angela Golden (17:28):
Well, I've, I've worked with so many dentists over the last 30
years, but, um, I've, I've seen somedentists that will practice until they're
80 because they didn't have a plan.
They didn't have a purpose ofwhat, what was gonna happen after.
Um, I've also seen where the doctor isriding his bike in Lake Tahoe and of
(17:53):
all of a sudden died of a heart attack.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (2) (17:55):
Mm-hmm.
Angela Golden (17:56):
Going through that whole phase with the doctor's husband and
children, and what are we gonna do now?
That's a whole thing.
And if we're not prepared now,and we have a plan in place.
Of what could happen and avision in place for the future.
(18:16):
It, it lines it all together.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (2) (18:19):
Cool.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (18:20):
How does the, how does that plan change?
So like, let's say, you know,somebody has an unfortunate accident.
How does that plan change that situation?
Let us see
Angela Golden (18:34):
that.
Okay.
For instance, I am working with.
A doctor now going throughan exit planning sessions.
The little assessmentsthat I do with them and the
questionnaires that I go with them.
Um, I sat down with his wifeand asked her these questions.
I said, what if this happened?
(18:55):
What would we do tomorrow?
And we lined it out.
We made a plan for her and I that ifsomething was to happen to him, this
is the roadmap we're gonna go on.
So we have it written down if somethinghappens to her, if something happens
to him, her son has it written down.
We have a plan.
(19:15):
And those are the things that I findthat the doctors and the doctors'
spouses really, really need is theyjust need to know that there, there's
a plan and there's support, and therearen't going out this all by themselves.
Mm-hmm.
(19:36):
Because you never know.
I mean, we've all, we've all knownthose doctors and that something
happens tragically or they're disabled.
Something happened and,and did they have a plan?
Now we have a plan in placeand we know where we're going.
And it's just like you have a bookthat's, this is gonna be your book
(19:59):
that's gonna guide you throughit, and that's what we wanna see.
Regan Robertson (20:03):
I'm curious how you walk them through the process that kind of
bridges the emotional and philosophicalwhy over to the data, so you get them
to visualize and get that plan in place.
And then there's the data that hasto back it up, the numbers of it.
What are some of the red flags thatyou see typical, um, speaking of the
doctor that had to work to 80, that youhelp them identify and then, you know,
(20:26):
work through to close the gap again?
Angela Golden (20:31):
I, I, I could get a little bit emotional about this, um, because
I, I have worked with that doctor thatworked until his very last day of when
he passed away, and I just, my biggestthing is to get the doctors to realize
that there is life after dentistry there.
(20:54):
There really is.
You have a family, you have your passions,you have so many other things to look
forward to in life, and there is lifeafter dentistry and knowing that, you
know, 90, I think Victoria says 95%of dentists can't retire financially.
Let's, let's make it happen sothey can, because I don't, I don't
(21:16):
wanna see that for any of them.
Dr. Chad Johnson (21:20):
So there's psychology that plays into this.
So I'm curious if, if someonemakes a plan, um, how often.
Is it executed well?
Because here's, here's my thoughtis, you know, you have, let's
say a hundred dentists and they,they all make a plan with you.
Do 60 out of the a hundred, uh, end up,you know, satisfied with their plan.
(21:47):
'cause this is.
Kind of tough.
You'd almost have to longitudinallyto get a real answer, you know?
But like I was wondering what your gutreaction is after 10 years, have them
fill out kind, some kind of survey saying,are you happy with how you ran that plan?
'cause I mean, you know, stuffhappens and things change.
And that kind of goes back to Victoria'sEvergreen planning of, you know,
(22:11):
business strategy and stuff like that.
Your thoughts, Angela?
Angela Golden (22:14):
It's every 90 day we real, we need to reevaluate every Oh,
Dr. Chad Johnson (22:19):
okay.
Angela Golden (22:19):
Because so many things change in life.
You have babies, you getdivorced, you, you never know.
So we have to always be updating andchanging the plan, and that's where the
strategy comes in of, you know, something.
Let's say you have a house fire,it's the same kind of thing.
(22:40):
We have to have a planfor that too, right?
So, um, it's every 90 days re justre-engaging, re-asking the same questions,
go over what has changed in your life,and where do we need to adjust this.
Dr. Chad Johnson (22:55):
Mm-hmm.
Angela Golden (22:56):
You get
Regan Robertson (22:57):
what you focus on.
Right.
I mean, if you don't, if you can't, if youdon't stay on top of it or if you, it's
just too easy to get back into complacencyand to think that something, I think so
many times, um, or at least for me, I'lljust wanna hit that, that automate button,
you know, so I can focus on other things.
And so to have a guide alongsideme, to remind me, uh, and that, you
(23:20):
know, that cadence, that quarterly.
Cadence is incredible.
What is, well, I do have a, I dohave a deeper question for you.
We talked about the 80-year-olddoctor, and that sounds to me like
that's fueling your why, but you alsowent through the process yourself.
Why, what drives you tohelp people through this?
What, why do you care?
Uh, good about other dentists?
Angela Golden (23:42):
I have been there, I've seen so many situations
where it completely destroys.
Your relationships with your family, yourrelationships with your team, and it can
completely destroy you emotionally and.
I, I mean, I've seen it with my own eyesand wi uh, I went through it myself.
(24:06):
It completely destroyed me, andI, I felt like I've given up
everything I've worked so hard for.
Why am I doing this?
And I don't want otherpeople to feel that pain.
Honestly.
I mean, it's.
Something that really tugs up myheart because it, I've been there
(24:27):
personally, but I've also sat next tothe widow of the doctor that I worked
with for so many years and was like,how are we gonna get through this?
And that's what my goal is, is to helpeverybody that I can get through one of
life's challenging, most challenging.
(24:49):
Most impactful events of their life.
Dr. Chad Johnson (24:51):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (24:53):
And when you begin to design these plans, um, with
your doctors and, and, and you kind ofhave this in place, the, the way that
I can relate to this is over COVID.
VID, my husband and I decided to puttogether a will and we hadn't before.
I can't get life insurance.
And we finally sat down and we hired anattorney to do that, and I felt like I
(25:14):
could sleep better at night afterwards.
Do you see a change in thedoctors that you work with?
Once you put this kind of plan inplace, do you see an ease in them?
Uh, perhaps in their spouses, um,and the people that are around
them in that, okay, this is.
(25:37):
This is taken care of.
Um, I can go on, you know, breathing alittle bit lighter as a result of having
this safety net, knowing that if some,if, if, if these things don't go to plan,
um, and this is worst case scenario,my family will know how to maneuver
through these really difficult moments.
(25:59):
Yes, absolutely.
Angela Golden (26:00):
They.
It's like a weight has been liftedoff of their shoulders and you
can see it, you can feel it andyou can hear it in their voice.
So, um, it's very impactfulwhen they know that they have.
A strategy.
They know that they have a, it's allcomes together for them, and they're
(26:21):
just like, oh, I can sleep at night.
Now I know what, howI'm gonna pay my bills.
I know how I'm gonnaget through all of this.
And I have a plan that I'm gonnakeep revisiting every 90 days
that I know I can make work.
Dr. Chad Johnson (26:37):
All right, so someone comes and says, uh, I
have 20 years left to practice.
When should we talk?
What's your ideal answer
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (26:47):
today?
And the question that youwould pose to that person would
be, what are your hobbies?
When do you wanna stop working?
Angela Golden (26:56):
No, I would want, first of my very first thing would be to know in 20
years, what do you need to have in place?
What do you need?
I wanna know what their visionis for the next 20 years.
What are they gonna bedoing after that 20 years?
I wanna know, is there, are theygonna fund their child's, uh, college?
(27:19):
Are they gonna pay for all the weddings?
I need to start planningthat ahead of time
and I need to start budgetingfor him or her to get that in
line for that 20 year exit.
It's, it's making sure that we haveall things in place for no matter what.
We can do it today or wecan do it in 20 years.
Regan Robertson (27:45):
I'm wondering if we can talk some, uh, successes that you've had.
Uh, first of all, it, it's the be Imean, your purpose is to make sure that
people don't have to experience what,what you experienced, which to me is.
The epitome of a hero's journey.
A good story is when bad things happento good people, a great story is when
bad things happen to heroes and theycan turn around and hold out a hand and
(28:09):
say, I'm going to help you through this.
So it's so opposite of the victim mindsetbecause bad things happen to everybody.
That's just the reality of it.
Intentionally or unintentionally,you're gonna step in a pile sometimes.
Um, so.
Through this process and the clientsthat you've helped, what are, what
are some successes that you, you know,that make you feel particularly great?
Angela Golden (28:31):
Well, I, I, I would, I think this as a success.
I had a doctor call a few weeksago and ask me, he said, I want
to get into coaching because I'mgonna try to exit in five years.
And I said, okay, let's go throughsome numbers and plans and what.
Went through his valuation and I said,this is where you are right now and if
(28:56):
you do this, this is where, what kindof value you would get for a private
practice sale today, or if you wentwith this option, it would be this.
And he looked at me and he said, Angela,now I have to rethink everything.
I didn't think my practicewas that valuable.
I didn't think I would be able to,so now I have to rethink this because
(29:20):
my wife wants to retire tomorrow.
She's my office manager.
I wanna keep working for three years.
Now I have to rethink everything.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (2) (29:30):
Mm-hmm.
Angela Golden (29:30):
Now we're going back and re looking at different situations because.
His mind shifted all of a sudden, andthat's where it all starts, is when you
start thinking about, okay, this is whereI'm at now and this is where I could be.
Your mind shifts and you startthinking about things differently,
and that's where we start really,really diving deep into things.
Regan Robertson (29:56):
So was his valuable or was his practice
more valuable than he thought?
Angela Golden (30:00):
It was almost three times more valuable than he thought.
Regan Robertson (30:03):
No way.
Normally I think thestory is the opposite.
They think it's worth more and thenthey're like, uh, it's not worth as much.
Yeah,
Angela Golden (30:10):
I've seen that too.
I've seen that too already.
We had a client who, uh, hewanted to sell his practice and
get out from under the headache.
But then when I went through his valuationwith him and I said, okay, this is
where we're at financially, you need toincrease your EBITDA a little bit more.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (30:30):
Mm-hmm.
Angela Golden (30:31):
For the next two years, let's really focus on this
part and closing these littlegaps that we have in the practice.
Closing the, what Icall the financial gaps.
In the practice and in hispersonal financial life.
We had to close those gaps before hisEBITDA would be at a selling point.
(30:51):
And I've checked it in with him.
I check in with him every 90 days.
See where at?
Regan Robertson (30:59):
So what did, so what did he like?
You just highlighted again, anotherintangible, like undercurrent that
sits is what's the real, real story?
Okay, well, the real story isa surprise number one, right?
Like, oh, it's worth more,but the real story underneath
is his wife wants to exit.
Now he wants to keep practicing.
So he, I mean, how do you traverse that?
(31:21):
Because to me that's a stronger motivatorthan, you know, the actual numbers.
The numbers play a veryimportant part, but.
How do you navigate that?
Angela Golden (31:31):
Well, then we, we talk about different situations.
Um, like for instance, if he wasto sell to a DSO, his wife is
the office manager right now.
So that would be an option forhim that would take care of him.
Possibly staying in practice,you know, in, in dentistry
and still being able to work.
(31:52):
But his wife would be able to retire.
She would not have to be in the office.
So we talked through that a little bit.
Um, we talked through his daughteris also a dentist and if she was to
come in and take over the practice,um, we talked about just, you know,
how having an associate come inand take on a few days for him.
(32:16):
That way him and his wifecan go do retirement things
while he's still working.
So there's all different avenues thatwe have to talk through, and that's
why getting to know their goalsand their vision is so important.
And that I do want, I always wantto include the spouse in these
conversations because that's a hugedriver in your decision making.
Dr. Chad Johnson (32:41):
Mm-hmm.
Regan Robertson (32:44):
I think that's just really fascinating because as a somebody
who engages coaching myself, but youknow, from the, the dental perspective,
like there's lots of different coachesor guides or advisors that you can engage
in, and to me it is a little confusing.
Like who, who do we go for?
For what?
There's financial advisors, there'sthis, now the cipa, so the exit
(33:06):
planning, like Chad and Maggie areboth asking it, when is the right time
to start and if the answer is today.
Do I have a sippa for 90days for the rest of my life?
Um, how, how do you help peoplelike sort, or, or what advice would
you have for them on which typeof, of guidance to like, engage in?
To me, it would be confusing.
I wouldn't know which route totake or if it's a combination.
Angela Golden (33:32):
Yeah, it's, it's a combination actually
because, um, as a certified exitplanning advisor, I work a lot.
Side by side with your financial advisorgetting those, um, numbers and, and,
um, details of everything that theyhave already planned and put in place.
(33:54):
I also work side by side with your CPA,making sure that you're profitable,
making sure that we're paying offdebt on time and, and where we
can move money this way, that way.
And so I. Intertwined with all of them,and then also with the business coach or
the team development coaches on buildingthat intangible asset of your team and
(34:19):
your patient care and getting all of that.
It's working.
I work with all three so thatwe are all on the same page,
but we're driving forward.
Regan Robertson (34:29):
This feels so ignorant on my part, but, but, uh,
you know, sometimes ignorance comesto the, to the best conclusions.
Dr. Chad Johnson (34:34):
That's right.
The best questions.
Regan Robertson (34:36):
Yeah.
Victoria, who is productiveDentist Academy, CEO, she always
says success requires support.
And I've taken that toheart over the years.
And so if you've listened to previousepisodes, you know, listener,
you, you will know that I havelike a healthcare team around me.
Like I invest in my health,so I have different types of
healthcare providers helping me.
And so from the business standpointof it too, I would sit down and
(35:00):
say, what do I budget for this?
Like I know.
I know I need help in certain areas.
And you've just done a great jobof explaining Angela, how you hook
into the different support networks.
Is there ever a budget that'srecommended for, for doctors so that
they can know how much to allocate?
Like for me, I had to kind of figureit out on my own and I did have to
(35:22):
make some sacrifices 'cause I couldsupport myself all, you know, I could
certainly help myself and then Iwould be missing certain, you know,
financial commitments and Sure.
So I had to like.
Figure out what was right for me.
Is there any sort of framework orformula or anything that you advise
people on, on what they shouldspend on, on their support team?
Angela Golden (35:46):
Well, in, in dental consulting and, and coaching industries,
um, it's usually between five and8% of your annual collections.
In the actual outside of dentistry worldof business, it's a lot higher than that.
(36:08):
It's between eight and 15%.
So, um, I think depending on the typeof practice you have and where you wanna
go is the key, is what is comfortable.
You don't wanna put yourself under.
Trying to make this vision happen, butyou also want to be smart with, with
(36:29):
your money and making sure that you havethe proper advice and advisors in your
corner, so it's an investment in yourself.
Regan Robertson (36:40):
I can't say enough.
Understanding where I'm going andunderstanding my why helped me
prioritize, like, it, it helped mekind of create an algorithm of sorts.
And, um, thank you forthe number piece of it.
Right.
So the, the actual percentage ofwhat people do, um, is it, how
do people, how do people get in?
I guess how did theyget in touch with you?
(37:01):
But how, but more importantlyis, let's start there.
Like with the valuation piece of it.
Is there any.
Any tools or anything that you offerthat people could get sort of a snapshot
and, and even start the conversationeven if they don't engage with you?
Is there something they can do on theirown, uh, to get that ball started?
Angela Golden (37:20):
Yeah.
Um, I, at Productive Dentist Academy,um, I do offer a complimentary value
gap assessment to every doctor that.
Is interested.
I'm happy to do that for you.
It requires me either linking with yourQuickBooks or your other software that
(37:40):
you use, or you providing me with thenumbers that I need, and I will do a
complimentary value assessment and mm-hmm.
Tell you where your value gap is.
Regan Robertson (37:52):
Mm-hmm.
Can they email you to reach out for that?
Angela Golden (37:55):
Yes, angela@productivedentist.com.
Thank you.
Regan Robertson (37:59):
And you're, are you gonna be at some events
coming up over the summer of 2025for everyone listening to this?
Angela Golden (38:06):
I will be at the Dentist Money Summit
Dr. Chad Johnson (38:11):
Oh yeah.
Angela Golden (38:11):
In Park City, Utah on June 18th.
19th.
Dr. Chad Johnson (38:16):
Mm-hmm.
Angela Golden (38:17):
Um, I will be at Adom.
Oh.
Regan Robertson (38:22):
Oh, a Dom's 20th anniversary.
Angela Golden (38:25):
Mm-hmm.
Regan Robertson (38:27):
And that's in, I don't remember where that's
Angela Golden (38:29):
in.
I'm going, or Jessica's going, buteither way I'm in contact with them, so.
Mm-hmm.
Regan Robertson (38:35):
And Dennis Money Summit is Dentist advisors.
Right.
That's put on by dentist advisors.
Excellent.
I went
Dr. Chad Johnson (38:42):
last year, today.
That was a blast.
Regan Robertson (38:44):
Did you find it valuable?
Dr. Chad Johnson (38:46):
Uh, yeah.
More than I expected.
I, I just didn't know quite whatto expect, but I thought, you know
what, let's just go and check it out.
Yeah.
Regan Robertson (38:54):
Well, Angela,
Dr. Chad Johnson (38:57):
say that again.
Angela Golden (38:58):
I said we had fun, didn't we chat?
Dr. Chad Johnson (39:00):
Yeah.
Regan Robertson (39:02):
Thank you for spending the time with us to, to walk through,
you know, understanding what, what a CPAis, what, what is important when you're,
when you're planning your future, andmost importantly, keeping in mind that
there's life after dentistry and there areguides that can help you along the way.
Dad, how about you?
How was this hour for you?
Dr. Chad Johnson (39:22):
Good.
And my, like I, if I were tosurrogately, I'm gonna make that an
adjective, an ave, uh, if I were toSurrogately offer is get in touch with
Angela, angela@productivedentists.com.
Um, my thought is, I think we havehead knowledge as dentists that,
uh, this is something we should do.
And then actually making ittangible, um, there's a friction gap.
(39:48):
Gap like, of, you know,like not wanting to.
I don't know, maybe it's evenacknowledged that you are that
close to being done sometimes.
I've always thought that Iwanted to go from 25 to 65, 40
years, just, you know, boom.
And there are days andweeks where sometimes I go.
(40:08):
I don't know, 55 kind of sounds nice.
Or tomorrow.
Or tomorrow.
So yesterday sounds nice.
Does anyone want the keys?
And so, um, and then there's other daysI go, man, I could do this forever.
So it's really tough because I thinkthere's a lot of emotionality to it.
You know, it's, it's not just ahead knowledge of, well therefore
(40:28):
when my bank account gets to here,then I'll just put this for sale.
Sign up.
Uh, there's more to it than that.
So, Angela, thank you for,um, kind of helping people
open their eyes to see that.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (40:40):
Thank
Regan Robertson (40:40):
you.
Dr. Chad Johnson (40:40):
Yeah.
Regan Robertson (40:42):
Maggie, how about you?
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (40:44):
You know, this hits home for me because I just found
out that my next door neighbor, whois a little bit older than me, he is a
podiatrist and he owns his own practice.
Uh, they're, they were about to retire.
They have three grown kids and grandkids,and he, um, he doesn't have much life.
Uh, he has glioblastomaand he's dying and.
(41:06):
Um, we, and so I'm in the middle ofwriting an article about how we just
wait and we wait for these momentsof celebration and, and we wait.
And this is, this is part of thesethings that we're waiting for, right?
We're waiting to retire and wepush off these things because we're
uncomfortable with dealing with them.
Um, these questions of when we willretire, how we will exit, that's all part
(41:32):
of a very uncomfortable conversation.
We don't want to see ourselves age.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (2) (41:37):
Right.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (41:37):
Right.
It doesn't feel good even, evensaying that I'm 50, that that.
Ugh.
That
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (2): doesn't, that doesn't, thanks. (41:43):
undefined
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (41:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'll take the other, I'll takethe 35 or, or whatever it is.
Um, and then you have your teenagekids laughing at you that you're 15.
That's gross.
But, um, so, so, so this is important.
This is important to, toforce yourself to look at.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and that would be oneof my parting thoughts.
Regan Robertson (42:07):
It's been an incredible episode.
Angela, again, thank you for your time.
Appreciate your insight somuch and what you're doing for
dentists all over the nation.
It's just really, it's really appreciated.
We deserve to, to hold the cliniciansand business owners really well.
They got a lot on their shoulders andit's really nice to be able to lessen
that pressure and help 'em enjoy life.
(42:28):
Maggie, I just.
Just had conversations with a reallyclose girlfriend of mine about living
life today instead of waiting, uh, youknow, until your runway is, is so thin.
So, uh, everybody, thank you so, so much.
We'll put Angela's contact informationin the show notes again, always.
If you would love to leave us a review.
We sure appreciate it on iTunes orSpotify, or if you wanna shoot us
(42:53):
an email at any time, uh, I thinkwe're podcast@productivedentist.com.
We'd love to hear your feedback and anyepisode ideas that you would like to hear.
Dr. Chad Johnson (43:02):
Thanks everyone.
Regan Robertson (43:04):
Bye-bye.
No, it's, it, it is a, an emotional hurdle because they've built
something so that's, they put theirblood, sweat, and tears into for so many
years that it's like selling a baby.
Welcome to another episode
Regan Robertson (00:19):
of Everyday Practices.
I am here with my beautiful co-hosts, Dr.Chad Johnson and Dr. Maggie Augustine.
You just heard.
From Angela Golden, our guesttoday who has kicked us off.
Chad and Maggie, before we bring Angelafully in, how are you both doing today?
What are you excited about on
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (00:39):
this episode?
It's been a week, so, um, it'llbe nice to maybe transition
from dealing with leadership andfantasize about walking away.
From
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (2): this, um, gnarly teenager. (00:56):
undefined
Yeah.
That is the dental practice.
That is the dental practice.
Dr. Chad Johnson (01:04):
Uh, for me personally, I've been in a position in the last
year or or so that I'm so frustrated.
I'm just like, I don'teven care about selling it.
I'm just looking to maximize what I haveright now and worry about that later.
And that might resonate with somepeople 'cause it's just like I'm, I am.
Enough associates in and I feel.
(01:28):
Like, um, I'm inadequate as aleader and or that, uh, they
just want to learn and run.
And so that's always tough too.
And all those factors playinto what if I didn't sell it?
What if I just.
You know, went to the end of mylease and just said, you know what?
Anyone want any extrapaper or computer supplies?
(01:51):
Get a keyboard if you want.
'cause I'm closing on on Friday.
Screw this.
So, uh, I, I've been through thewhole range of emotions, but that's
kind of where I sit currently.
And, uh, so when I saw this comingup, Angela, I was excited to, uh, to.
You know, walk through that, as youhad mentioned earlier, with the, um,
(02:14):
the psychological counseling of it all.
So can you first start us off bytelling us your CIPA certified and what
exactly that means, so that way thelisteners can know, uh, the context
of what the world is he talking about.
Regan Robertson (02:31):
And who the heck is Angela?
Angela Golden (02:32):
Yes.
Well, um.
To start off with, I am Angelaand I am a certified exit planning
advisor who helps dentists.
I focus specifically on dentalpractices and growing the value of
their practice before they sell.
(02:53):
And as I spoke earlierabout selling your baby, um.
When I bought a practice back in a fewyears, I'll say a few years ago, um, put
my whole heart, soul, everything I had,my husband and I spent weekends in there.
Um, spent the whole shutdowntime during COVID remodeling
(03:16):
and everything that we did.
It was just like, oh, now what do I do?
Regan Robertson (03:24):
I didn't even realize that you were a practice owner, Angela.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (2) (03:28):
Yes, I was.
Regan Robertson (03:29):
What were some of the, what were some of the signals
that you saw, you know, duringthose, those frustrating times too?
What were some of the signals that,that you were like, okay, I'm.
Thinking about, about an exit here,whether it is I am, you know, on one end
of the spectrum, I'm super frustratedand ready to go open up a Quiznos all
the way over to, you know, this ismy baby and I really care about this.
(03:50):
Which we know it's comit's hashtag complicated.
We, we know how business ownership goes.
Angela Golden (03:55):
And the, the emotional aspect of it is your team.
You've built a team around you thathas become part of your family.
You've got your patients who havealso become such dear friends.
And you know, in my opinion, theywere part of my family as well.
So I had such deep relationships witheverybody and that's when, when I
(04:20):
discuss exit planning with doctors, um.
There's the value of the practice,but there's also the value of the
intangible assets or the intellectualproperty that you have, and that
is your, um, we call 'em the fourCs, but that's your human capital.
That's your employees.
(04:41):
Your patients are your customer capital.
Your structural capital, capital,which is all of the insides of the
practice, and then your social capital,which is all of your reviews, um, what
patients say about you, your socialmedia following, um, all of that.
So those are the types of things thatwhen you're looking at exiting your
(05:03):
practice and increasing the valueof the practice before you exit,
is really honing in on those fourthings and making those things as.
The most value because there's a, a, oneof the things that I learned in my CPA
certification was that 80% of businessvalue is in those four intangible assets.
Regan Robertson (05:28):
Which one of those assets with all the dentists that you've worked
with is the biggest, uh, gap to close?
Angela Golden (05:38):
That would be the customer capital.
Really?
Tell me more.
Why num?
Well, it's kind of equal betweenhuman capital and customer capital.
Your customer capital.
How many active patients do you have inyour practice and how many of those active
patients are not scheduled right now?
(06:00):
So rein reactivation is huge when it comesto increasing the value of your practice.
It's reactivation, re-engagement.
Those kind of things are, they work handin hand with getting more treatment on the
books, more production, more collection.
That's all gonna increase the value.
The human capital is if aperson's gonna want to buy your
(06:22):
practice, are your employees.
And the systems that youhave in place sellable.
Regan Robertson (06:31):
Tell us what makes it sellable.
This is exciting to me becauseit feels, it is so intangible.
It is.
So humans are, you know, it's messy.
And so that to me is like, you'reputting a system around this.
This is exciting.
Angela Golden (06:41):
Yeah.
So you look at, forinstance, your hygienist.
Your hygienist will most.
Practices when you sell, they want tokeep your staff because your staff has
the relationships with the patients.
For instance, your hygienist, they seethe patients every three to six months.
They know their names,they know their families.
(07:01):
They have that.
Actual relationship.
The dental assistants have the samerelationship with the patients.
They know them and the anybody whowants to buy into a practice or
buy that practice wants to keepas many of those key employees so
that you have that relationshipthat the patients are used to.
(07:24):
But with that said, you also haveto build the relationship with the
outside world and the potentialpatients that you could have and the
potential employees that you could have.
So it's something about building those,um, I. The relationships with everybody
and really honing in on what the riskfactors are and making sure that the
(07:49):
patients understand that so that thephilosophy of cares can be intertwined
with whoever's gonna buy the practice.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (07:57):
Let's step back for a minute because I think the way
that we traditionally have looked atselling a practice has been, you know,
we practice for a fair amount of time oruntil we are too tired or until we hurt
ourselves, and then we sell our practice.
And generally when that happens, we.
(08:17):
We sell the practice at a time whenit's not worth a whole lot, meaning
that that practice has reduced invalue, or at least is, is, is generally
not an investment that we haverelied on in our portfolio at least.
Um, but there's a differentway of, of doing this.
(08:38):
There's a way of creating value inour practice and considering that
an investment in our portfolio, um.
Talk to us about how to do thatand when to consider walking
away, or maybe not, maybe that'snot the right term of putting it.
(08:58):
Um, talk to us about exiting ourpractice as owners in preserving as
much value in it so that we walk awaywith those coffers filled as much as
Angela Golden (09:13):
as they can be.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (2) (09:15):
Hmm.
Angela Golden (09:16):
When I, when I meet with the doctors, I do
a few assessments and one of.
Obviously I do a valuation of the practiceand where it's at now and where the
potential of through these assessments,where it could potentially be, and whether
you sell to a private owner or a privateequity or a DSO or something else, there's
(09:37):
all these different ways to look at it.
So then with that being said, I takeyou through a journey of what your
life's gonna look like after you exit.
What are the.
The things that you're wanting to achieve.
Are you gonna do missions?
Are you gonna go tour the world?
Are you going to, what's your plan?
(09:58):
Are you gonna golf every day?
Because a lot of doctorsdon't have a plan.
They don't know whatthey're gonna do, and.
They just think, I'm gonna practicedentistry till I die because I
don't have any other hobbies.
And there's so manydentists that are that way.
They don't have any other hobbies.
Their practice has anengulfs their entire life.
(10:21):
So when they think about exiting,they need to have a plan, they
need to have a vision, and thenwe need to fund that vision and
how are we going going to do that?
Dr. Chad Johnson (10:34):
So.
Uh, thinking along those lines, if,
I'm trying to think of how to describe it.
But social media I think has a good anda bad within the context, specifically
of the pressure of retiring with Xdollars and, um, I think there are,
(10:59):
um, there's, how to describe it.
There is.
There.
There are some who need to retirewith a lot of money because
they sure know how to spend it.
And then there are others thatcould retire quite comfortably and
live easy because they just spend.
Um, frugally and, um, but on, on Facebookfor example, you see people, you know,
(11:25):
like, oh, I'm gonna try and retirewith 20 million and stuff like that.
And then indirectly or directly,that can cause pressure.
I mean, I don't have 20 million,should I retire with 20 million?
How could I even get 2 million?
You know, like, let alone 20 million.
And then you go, wait a second, this guyhas a $5 million home in Miami and he's.
(11:49):
Got a hundred thousanddollars of equity into it.
And, uh, here I'm in Iowa and you know,I, I might have more of my home paid for
and plan to just, you know, mow my lawnand take walks through the neighborhood.
And that doesn't cost as much astaking your yacht out, you know,
(12:09):
from your million dollar, um,dock, you know, so are, are there.
Are there, uh, surprises to somedentists when they go, you know, I
actually don't need a lot of money,because it seems as though a lot
of times the the, the pressure isyou'll need more than you expect.
But it's like, is it everlike you, you might actually
(12:31):
need less than you'd expect.
Angela Golden (12:33):
Yeah, exactly.
And, and through the assessmentsthat I go through with, with the
doctors, um, I talk about with them,you know, are you gonna be taking
care of your family, um, your mother?
Are you gonna need to puther in a care facility?
How much is that gonna cost a month?
And going through, um, different steps,how the first step is de-risking yourself.
(12:59):
The next step is preparing yourself.
Those two steps kind ofintertwine a little bit.
Um, because you're, what do you
Dr. Chad Johnson (13:07):
mean by preparing yourself?
Angela Golden (13:09):
Preparing yourself financially and emotionally.
Okay.
Emotionally.
So when I first started this,um, podcast with you, we talked
about selling your baby becausethat is exactly what you're doing.
You've put your life into this and mm-hmm.
(13:31):
You want, you want what'sbest for your baby, right?
But you also want what's bestfor yourself emotionally.
And so a lot of times we have to prepare,you know, de-risk and then prepare.
And that's then we decide are we.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (13:50):
Is there a good time to start talking to someone?
You know, like, um, I'm, I'malmost 50 and I, I don't plan on
stopping to practice dentistry.
I'm not plan.
I don't wanna sell my practice either.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (2) (14:05):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (14:06):
Um, I don't wanna transition out.
When should I talk to someone like you?
Angela Golden (14:14):
Well.
I, I feel this is my own opinion that exitplanning is business planning because you
never know what's gonna happen tomorrow.
I.
Regan Robertson (14:25):
I can't say enough about, about this is, this
is for any time in your life.
Um, and, and yes, full disclosure, we allknow that I don't own a dental practice
and I won't own a dental practice.
It doesn't matter whether youown a dental practice or not.
Knowing your why and your purpose andwhere you're going, the universe in and
of itself starts to align you to that.
(14:47):
And I met with my financial advisorseveral years ago, so I'm in my forties.
For my full disclosure, and he helped methrough an exercise that sounds eerily
similar, Angela, to where I wanted to go.
And Chad, to your point, the why that sitsunderneath, why do you want 20 million?
I don't think it actuallymatters the number that you have.
(15:08):
It's the why and the purpose.
That is what drives me anyway.
And I think that's what drives humans.
So I said the same thing, notwith the money, but I said, okay.
I'm gonna retire when I'm 53 becausemy son will be graduating and I wanted,
and he was like, okay, well tell mewhat retirement means to you, Angela.
So he like started saying,what hobbies do you wanna do?
(15:29):
Um, what kinda lifestyle do you want?
How many vacations do you wanna take?
All of those.
It was the best exercise everbecause what I discovered was,
oh, I don't really wanna retire.
I just don't wanna worklike five days a week.
I, I still, I'm never gonnanot be passionate Maggie, like
you with the dental practice.
Like I'm never not gonna wanna be doingsomething, but my lifestyle will change.
(15:50):
So we talked about the purposeand the why, and now this many
years in, I'm so happy when I get.
On a call with him, and I have, Ihave a father and a father-in-law, two
wildly different like outcomes for theirlives and their retirement lifestyles.
Um, that run the gamut of, you know, um,wanting to do things versus being frugal.
(16:10):
It's what you want andit's, it's crafting that.
And then to me, I don't know about youAngela, and so this is leading up to
a question in that when they discoverthat purpose and get to their, why
does the emotional hurdles like thebridge over into planning become.
Easier for them.
For me, it was, um, yeah.
Okay.
Angela Golden (16:31):
Yeah.
It gives them a, a purpose ofwhat, of what their goal is.
I mean, you have to have a purposeand when you actually write it down,
it's like having a vision board.
This is what that vision board isgonna look like after I sell my
practice or after I cut, hire anassociate and cut back to two days
a week instead of five days a week.
(16:53):
It's just.
Incrementally, this is where I'm gonna go.
It might be five years, it mightbe 10 years, it might be 20 years.
But planning that and getting that visionis, is what's really, really important.
Dr. Chad Johnson (17:06):
So tell us an example, Angela.
Um, I mean, so if someonedidn't prepare properly.
Um, and have the glide path, therunway, um, to, to land the plane,
uh, properly, you know, what did thatend up costing them or, you know,
like how did that difficulty play out?
Angela Golden (17:28):
Well, I've, I've worked with so many dentists over the last 30
years, but, um, I've, I've seen somedentists that will practice until they're
80 because they didn't have a plan.
They didn't have a purpose ofwhat, what was gonna happen after.
Um, I've also seen where the doctor isriding his bike in Lake Tahoe and of
(17:53):
all of a sudden died of a heart attack.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (2) (17:55):
Mm-hmm.
Angela Golden (17:56):
Going through that whole phase with the doctor's husband and
children, and what are we gonna do now?
That's a whole thing.
And if we're not prepared now,and we have a plan in place.
Of what could happen and avision in place for the future.
(18:16):
It, it lines it all together.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (2) (18:19):
Cool.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (18:20):
How does the, how does that plan change?
So like, let's say, you know,somebody has an unfortunate accident.
How does that plan change that situation?
Let us see
Angela Golden (18:34):
that.
Okay.
For instance, I am working with.
A doctor now going throughan exit planning sessions.
The little assessmentsthat I do with them and the
questionnaires that I go with them.
Um, I sat down with his wifeand asked her these questions.
I said, what if this happened?
(18:55):
What would we do tomorrow?
And we lined it out.
We made a plan for her and I that ifsomething was to happen to him, this
is the roadmap we're gonna go on.
So we have it written down if somethinghappens to her, if something happens
to him, her son has it written down.
We have a plan.
(19:15):
And those are the things that I findthat the doctors and the doctors'
spouses really, really need is theyjust need to know that there, there's
a plan and there's support, and therearen't going out this all by themselves.
Mm-hmm.
(19:36):
Because you never know.
I mean, we've all, we've all knownthose doctors and that something
happens tragically or they're disabled.
Something happened and,and did they have a plan?
Now we have a plan in placeand we know where we're going.
And it's just like you have a bookthat's, this is gonna be your book
(19:59):
that's gonna guide you throughit, and that's what we wanna see.
Regan Robertson (20:03):
I'm curious how you walk them through the process that kind of
bridges the emotional and philosophicalwhy over to the data, so you get them
to visualize and get that plan in place.
And then there's the data that hasto back it up, the numbers of it.
What are some of the red flags thatyou see typical, um, speaking of the
doctor that had to work to 80, that youhelp them identify and then, you know,
(20:26):
work through to close the gap again?
Angela Golden (20:31):
I, I, I could get a little bit emotional about this, um, because
I, I have worked with that doctor thatworked until his very last day of when
he passed away, and I just, my biggestthing is to get the doctors to realize
that there is life after dentistry there.
(20:54):
There really is.
You have a family, you have your passions,you have so many other things to look
forward to in life, and there is lifeafter dentistry and knowing that, you
know, 90, I think Victoria says 95%of dentists can't retire financially.
Let's, let's make it happen sothey can, because I don't, I don't
(21:16):
wanna see that for any of them.
Dr. Chad Johnson (21:20):
So there's psychology that plays into this.
So I'm curious if, if someonemakes a plan, um, how often.
Is it executed well?
Because here's, here's my thoughtis, you know, you have, let's
say a hundred dentists and they,they all make a plan with you.
Do 60 out of the a hundred, uh, end up,you know, satisfied with their plan.
(21:47):
'cause this is.
Kind of tough.
You'd almost have to longitudinallyto get a real answer, you know?
But like I was wondering what your gutreaction is after 10 years, have them
fill out kind, some kind of survey saying,are you happy with how you ran that plan?
'cause I mean, you know, stuffhappens and things change.
And that kind of goes back to Victoria'sEvergreen planning of, you know,
(22:11):
business strategy and stuff like that.
Your thoughts, Angela?
Angela Golden (22:14):
It's every 90 day we real, we need to reevaluate every Oh,
Dr. Chad Johnson (22:19):
okay.
Angela Golden (22:19):
Because so many things change in life.
You have babies, you getdivorced, you, you never know.
So we have to always be updating andchanging the plan, and that's where the
strategy comes in of, you know, something.
Let's say you have a house fire,it's the same kind of thing.
(22:40):
We have to have a planfor that too, right?
So, um, it's every 90 days re justre-engaging, re-asking the same questions,
go over what has changed in your life,and where do we need to adjust this.
Dr. Chad Johnson (22:55):
Mm-hmm.
Angela Golden (22:56):
You get
Regan Robertson (22:57):
what you focus on.
Right.
I mean, if you don't, if you can't, if youdon't stay on top of it or if you, it's
just too easy to get back into complacencyand to think that something, I think so
many times, um, or at least for me, I'lljust wanna hit that, that automate button,
you know, so I can focus on other things.
And so to have a guide alongsideme, to remind me, uh, and that, you
(23:20):
know, that cadence, that quarterly.
Cadence is incredible.
What is, well, I do have a, I dohave a deeper question for you.
We talked about the 80-year-olddoctor, and that sounds to me like
that's fueling your why, but you alsowent through the process yourself.
Why, what drives you tohelp people through this?
What, why do you care?
Uh, good about other dentists?
Angela Golden (23:42):
I have been there, I've seen so many situations
where it completely destroys.
Your relationships with your family, yourrelationships with your team, and it can
completely destroy you emotionally and.
I, I mean, I've seen it with my own eyesand wi uh, I went through it myself.
(24:06):
It completely destroyed me, andI, I felt like I've given up
everything I've worked so hard for.
Why am I doing this?
And I don't want otherpeople to feel that pain.
Honestly.
I mean, it's.
Something that really tugs up myheart because it, I've been there
(24:27):
personally, but I've also sat next tothe widow of the doctor that I worked
with for so many years and was like,how are we gonna get through this?
And that's what my goal is, is to helpeverybody that I can get through one of
life's challenging, most challenging.
(24:49):
Most impactful events of their life.
Dr. Chad Johnson (24:51):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (24:53):
And when you begin to design these plans, um, with
your doctors and, and, and you kind ofhave this in place, the, the way that
I can relate to this is over COVID.
VID, my husband and I decided to puttogether a will and we hadn't before.
I can't get life insurance.
And we finally sat down and we hired anattorney to do that, and I felt like I
(25:14):
could sleep better at night afterwards.
Do you see a change in thedoctors that you work with?
Once you put this kind of plan inplace, do you see an ease in them?
Uh, perhaps in their spouses, um,and the people that are around
them in that, okay, this is.
(25:37):
This is taken care of.
Um, I can go on, you know, breathing alittle bit lighter as a result of having
this safety net, knowing that if some,if, if, if these things don't go to plan,
um, and this is worst case scenario,my family will know how to maneuver
through these really difficult moments.
(25:59):
Yes, absolutely.
Angela Golden (26:00):
They.
It's like a weight has been liftedoff of their shoulders and you
can see it, you can feel it andyou can hear it in their voice.
So, um, it's very impactfulwhen they know that they have.
A strategy.
They know that they have a, it's allcomes together for them, and they're
(26:21):
just like, oh, I can sleep at night.
Now I know what, howI'm gonna pay my bills.
I know how I'm gonnaget through all of this.
And I have a plan that I'm gonnakeep revisiting every 90 days
that I know I can make work.
Dr. Chad Johnson (26:37):
All right, so someone comes and says, uh, I
have 20 years left to practice.
When should we talk?
What's your ideal answer
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (26:47):
today?
And the question that youwould pose to that person would
be, what are your hobbies?
When do you wanna stop working?
Angela Golden (26:56):
No, I would want, first of my very first thing would be to know in 20
years, what do you need to have in place?
What do you need?
I wanna know what their visionis for the next 20 years.
What are they gonna bedoing after that 20 years?
I wanna know, is there, are theygonna fund their child's, uh, college?
(27:19):
Are they gonna pay for all the weddings?
I need to start planningthat ahead of time
and I need to start budgetingfor him or her to get that in
line for that 20 year exit.
It's, it's making sure that we haveall things in place for no matter what.
We can do it today or wecan do it in 20 years.
Regan Robertson (27:45):
I'm wondering if we can talk some, uh, successes that you've had.
Uh, first of all, it, it's the be Imean, your purpose is to make sure that
people don't have to experience what,what you experienced, which to me is.
The epitome of a hero's journey.
A good story is when bad things happento good people, a great story is when
bad things happen to heroes and theycan turn around and hold out a hand and
(28:09):
say, I'm going to help you through this.
So it's so opposite of the victim mindsetbecause bad things happen to everybody.
That's just the reality of it.
Intentionally or unintentionally,you're gonna step in a pile sometimes.
Um, so.
Through this process and the clientsthat you've helped, what are, what
are some successes that you, you know,that make you feel particularly great?
Angela Golden (28:31):
Well, I, I, I would, I think this as a success.
I had a doctor call a few weeksago and ask me, he said, I want
to get into coaching because I'mgonna try to exit in five years.
And I said, okay, let's go throughsome numbers and plans and what.
Went through his valuation and I said,this is where you are right now and if
(28:56):
you do this, this is where, what kindof value you would get for a private
practice sale today, or if you wentwith this option, it would be this.
And he looked at me and he said, Angela,now I have to rethink everything.
I didn't think my practicewas that valuable.
I didn't think I would be able to,so now I have to rethink this because
(29:20):
my wife wants to retire tomorrow.
She's my office manager.
I wanna keep working for three years.
Now I have to rethink everything.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (2) (29:30):
Mm-hmm.
Angela Golden (29:30):
Now we're going back and re looking at different situations because.
His mind shifted all of a sudden, andthat's where it all starts, is when you
start thinking about, okay, this is whereI'm at now and this is where I could be.
Your mind shifts and you startthinking about things differently,
and that's where we start really,really diving deep into things.
Regan Robertson (29:56):
So was his valuable or was his practice
more valuable than he thought?
Angela Golden (30:00):
It was almost three times more valuable than he thought.
Regan Robertson (30:03):
No way.
Normally I think thestory is the opposite.
They think it's worth more and thenthey're like, uh, it's not worth as much.
Yeah,
Angela Golden (30:10):
I've seen that too.
I've seen that too already.
We had a client who, uh, hewanted to sell his practice and
get out from under the headache.
But then when I went through his valuationwith him and I said, okay, this is
where we're at financially, you need toincrease your EBITDA a little bit more.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (30:30):
Mm-hmm.
Angela Golden (30:31):
For the next two years, let's really focus on this
part and closing these littlegaps that we have in the practice.
Closing the, what Icall the financial gaps.
In the practice and in hispersonal financial life.
We had to close those gaps before hisEBITDA would be at a selling point.
(30:51):
And I've checked it in with him.
I check in with him every 90 days.
See where at?
Regan Robertson (30:59):
So what did, so what did he like?
You just highlighted again, anotherintangible, like undercurrent that
sits is what's the real, real story?
Okay, well, the real story isa surprise number one, right?
Like, oh, it's worth more,but the real story underneath
is his wife wants to exit.
Now he wants to keep practicing.
So he, I mean, how do you traverse that?
(31:21):
Because to me that's a stronger motivatorthan, you know, the actual numbers.
The numbers play a veryimportant part, but.
How do you navigate that?
Angela Golden (31:31):
Well, then we, we talk about different situations.
Um, like for instance, if he wasto sell to a DSO, his wife is
the office manager right now.
So that would be an option forhim that would take care of him.
Possibly staying in practice,you know, in, in dentistry
and still being able to work.
(31:52):
But his wife would be able to retire.
She would not have to be in the office.
So we talked through that a little bit.
Um, we talked through his daughteris also a dentist and if she was to
come in and take over the practice,um, we talked about just, you know,
how having an associate come inand take on a few days for him.
(32:16):
That way him and his wifecan go do retirement things
while he's still working.
So there's all different avenues thatwe have to talk through, and that's
why getting to know their goalsand their vision is so important.
And that I do want, I always wantto include the spouse in these
conversations because that's a hugedriver in your decision making.
Dr. Chad Johnson (32:41):
Mm-hmm.
Regan Robertson (32:44):
I think that's just really fascinating because as a somebody
who engages coaching myself, but youknow, from the, the dental perspective,
like there's lots of different coachesor guides or advisors that you can engage
in, and to me it is a little confusing.
Like who, who do we go for?
For what?
There's financial advisors, there'sthis, now the cipa, so the exit
(33:06):
planning, like Chad and Maggie areboth asking it, when is the right time
to start and if the answer is today.
Do I have a sippa for 90days for the rest of my life?
Um, how, how do you help peoplelike sort, or, or what advice would
you have for them on which typeof, of guidance to like, engage in?
To me, it would be confusing.
I wouldn't know which route totake or if it's a combination.
Angela Golden (33:32):
Yeah, it's, it's a combination actually
because, um, as a certified exitplanning advisor, I work a lot.
Side by side with your financial advisorgetting those, um, numbers and, and,
um, details of everything that theyhave already planned and put in place.
(33:54):
I also work side by side with your CPA,making sure that you're profitable,
making sure that we're paying offdebt on time and, and where we
can move money this way, that way.
And so I. Intertwined with all of them,and then also with the business coach or
the team development coaches on buildingthat intangible asset of your team and
(34:19):
your patient care and getting all of that.
It's working.
I work with all three so thatwe are all on the same page,
but we're driving forward.
Regan Robertson (34:29):
This feels so ignorant on my part, but, but, uh,
you know, sometimes ignorance comesto the, to the best conclusions.
Dr. Chad Johnson (34:34):
That's right.
The best questions.
Regan Robertson (34:36):
Yeah.
Victoria, who is productiveDentist Academy, CEO, she always
says success requires support.
And I've taken that toheart over the years.
And so if you've listened to previousepisodes, you know, listener,
you, you will know that I havelike a healthcare team around me.
Like I invest in my health,so I have different types of
healthcare providers helping me.
And so from the business standpointof it too, I would sit down and
(35:00):
say, what do I budget for this?
Like I know.
I know I need help in certain areas.
And you've just done a great jobof explaining Angela, how you hook
into the different support networks.
Is there ever a budget that'srecommended for, for doctors so that
they can know how much to allocate?
Like for me, I had to kind of figureit out on my own and I did have to
(35:22):
make some sacrifices 'cause I couldsupport myself all, you know, I could
certainly help myself and then Iwould be missing certain, you know,
financial commitments and Sure.
So I had to like.
Figure out what was right for me.
Is there any sort of framework orformula or anything that you advise
people on, on what they shouldspend on, on their support team?
Angela Golden (35:46):
Well, in, in dental consulting and, and coaching industries,
um, it's usually between five and8% of your annual collections.
In the actual outside of dentistry worldof business, it's a lot higher than that.
(36:08):
It's between eight and 15%.
So, um, I think depending on the typeof practice you have and where you wanna
go is the key, is what is comfortable.
You don't wanna put yourself under.
Trying to make this vision happen, butyou also want to be smart with, with
(36:29):
your money and making sure that you havethe proper advice and advisors in your
corner, so it's an investment in yourself.
Regan Robertson (36:40):
I can't say enough.
Understanding where I'm going andunderstanding my why helped me
prioritize, like, it, it helped mekind of create an algorithm of sorts.
And, um, thank you forthe number piece of it.
Right.
So the, the actual percentage ofwhat people do, um, is it, how
do people, how do people get in?
I guess how did theyget in touch with you?
(37:01):
But how, but more importantlyis, let's start there.
Like with the valuation piece of it.
Is there any.
Any tools or anything that you offerthat people could get sort of a snapshot
and, and even start the conversationeven if they don't engage with you?
Is there something they can do on theirown, uh, to get that ball started?
Angela Golden (37:20):
Yeah.
Um, I, at Productive Dentist Academy,um, I do offer a complimentary value
gap assessment to every doctor that.
Is interested.
I'm happy to do that for you.
It requires me either linking with yourQuickBooks or your other software that
(37:40):
you use, or you providing me with thenumbers that I need, and I will do a
complimentary value assessment and mm-hmm.
Tell you where your value gap is.
Regan Robertson (37:52):
Mm-hmm.
Can they email you to reach out for that?
Angela Golden (37:55):
Yes, angela@productivedentist.com.
Thank you.
Regan Robertson (37:59):
And you're, are you gonna be at some events
coming up over the summer of 2025for everyone listening to this?
Angela Golden (38:06):
I will be at the Dentist Money Summit
Dr. Chad Johnson (38:11):
Oh yeah.
Angela Golden (38:11):
In Park City, Utah on June 18th.
19th.
Dr. Chad Johnson (38:16):
Mm-hmm.
Angela Golden (38:17):
Um, I will be at Adom.
Oh.
Regan Robertson (38:22):
Oh, a Dom's 20th anniversary.
Angela Golden (38:25):
Mm-hmm.
Regan Robertson (38:27):
And that's in, I don't remember where that's
Angela Golden (38:29):
in.
I'm going, or Jessica's going, buteither way I'm in contact with them, so.
Mm-hmm.
Regan Robertson (38:35):
And Dennis Money Summit is Dentist advisors.
Right.
That's put on by dentist advisors.
Excellent.
I went
Dr. Chad Johnson (38:42):
last year, today.
That was a blast.
Regan Robertson (38:44):
Did you find it valuable?
Dr. Chad Johnson (38:46):
Uh, yeah.
More than I expected.
I, I just didn't know quite whatto expect, but I thought, you know
what, let's just go and check it out.
Yeah.
Regan Robertson (38:54):
Well, Angela,
Dr. Chad Johnson (38:57):
say that again.
Angela Golden (38:58):
I said we had fun, didn't we chat?
Dr. Chad Johnson (39:00):
Yeah.
Regan Robertson (39:02):
Thank you for spending the time with us to, to walk through,
you know, understanding what, what a CPAis, what, what is important when you're,
when you're planning your future, andmost importantly, keeping in mind that
there's life after dentistry and there areguides that can help you along the way.
Dad, how about you?
How was this hour for you?
Dr. Chad Johnson (39:22):
Good.
And my, like I, if I were tosurrogately, I'm gonna make that an
adjective, an ave, uh, if I were toSurrogately offer is get in touch with
Angela, angela@productivedentists.com.
Um, my thought is, I think we havehead knowledge as dentists that,
uh, this is something we should do.
And then actually making ittangible, um, there's a friction gap.
(39:48):
Gap like, of, you know,like not wanting to.
I don't know, maybe it's evenacknowledged that you are that
close to being done sometimes.
I've always thought that Iwanted to go from 25 to 65, 40
years, just, you know, boom.
And there are days andweeks where sometimes I go.
(40:08):
I don't know, 55 kind of sounds nice.
Or tomorrow.
Or tomorrow.
So yesterday sounds nice.
Does anyone want the keys?
And so, um, and then there's other daysI go, man, I could do this forever.
So it's really tough because I thinkthere's a lot of emotionality to it.
You know, it's, it's not just ahead knowledge of, well therefore
(40:28):
when my bank account gets to here,then I'll just put this for sale.
Sign up.
Uh, there's more to it than that.
So, Angela, thank you for,um, kind of helping people
open their eyes to see that.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (40:40):
Thank
Regan Robertson (40:40):
you.
Dr. Chad Johnson (40:40):
Yeah.
Regan Robertson (40:42):
Maggie, how about you?
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (40:44):
You know, this hits home for me because I just found
out that my next door neighbor, whois a little bit older than me, he is a
podiatrist and he owns his own practice.
Uh, they're, they were about to retire.
They have three grown kids and grandkids,and he, um, he doesn't have much life.
Uh, he has glioblastomaand he's dying and.
(41:06):
Um, we, and so I'm in the middle ofwriting an article about how we just
wait and we wait for these momentsof celebration and, and we wait.
And this is, this is part of thesethings that we're waiting for, right?
We're waiting to retire and wepush off these things because we're
uncomfortable with dealing with them.
Um, these questions of when we willretire, how we will exit, that's all part
(41:32):
of a very uncomfortable conversation.
We don't want to see ourselves age.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (2) (41:37):
Right.
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (41:37):
Right.
It doesn't feel good even, evensaying that I'm 50, that that.
Ugh.
That
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (2): doesn't, that doesn't, thanks. (41:43):
undefined
Dr. Maggie Augustyn (41:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'll take the other, I'll takethe 35 or, or whatever it is.
Um, and then you have your teenagekids laughing at you that you're 15.
That's gross.
But, um, so, so, so this is important.
This is important to, toforce yourself to look at.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and that would be oneof my parting thoughts.
Regan Robertson (42:07):
It's been an incredible episode.
Angela, again, thank you for your time.
Appreciate your insight somuch and what you're doing for
dentists all over the nation.
It's just really, it's really appreciated.
We deserve to, to hold the cliniciansand business owners really well.
They got a lot on their shoulders andit's really nice to be able to lessen
that pressure and help 'em enjoy life.
(42:28):
Maggie, I just.
Just had conversations with a reallyclose girlfriend of mine about living
life today instead of waiting, uh, youknow, until your runway is, is so thin.
So, uh, everybody, thank you so, so much.
We'll put Angela's contact informationin the show notes again, always.
If you would love to leave us a review.
We sure appreciate it on iTunes orSpotify, or if you wanna shoot us
(42:53):
an email at any time, uh, I thinkwe're podcast@productivedentist.com.
We'd love to hear your feedback and anyepisode ideas that you would like to hear.
Dr. Chad Johnson (43:02):
Thanks everyone.
Regan Robertson (43:04):
Bye-bye.
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