October 19, 2025 • 28 mins
Join us for another episode in our popular Student Stories series, featuring Dr Frank Douglas, a scholar for whom education was pivotal in his life's journey.
From his beginnings in Guyana to his work in global pharma leadership, we'll follow Frank's journey of "bouncing forward": of scholarships and hard work, undertaking a PhD in America, facing racial discrimination in the workplace, and beginning a new career after medical school.
Frank also shares his clear methods for turning setbacks into strengths through hard work, perseverance and understanding how to turn your own problems into solutions for everyone.
Delving into racial history in America, this episode, released during Black History Month 2025, celebrates Frank's achievements and extraordinary life.
**
You might also enjoy:
Episode 18 of the Exam Study Expert podcast, featuring industry Titan Josaia Mar : https://examstudyexpert.com/coconut-shells-to-industry-titan-when-i-grow-up-month/
**
Find out more about Dr Frank Douglas:
• Discover resources on anti-fragility and perseverance on his website: https://www.safehavendialogues-llc.com/
• Listen to his podcast, Reframe for Resilience on your favourite podcast player, or at: https://www.safehavendialogues-llc.com/podcast
**
Find out more about Exam Study Expert:
Hosted by William Wadsworth, memory psychologist, independent researcher and study skills coach. I help ambitious students to study smarter, not harder, so they can ace their exams with less work and less stress.
• BOOK 1:1 COACHING to supercharge your exam success: https://examstudyexpert.com/workwithme/
• Get a copy of Outsmart Your Exams, my award-winning exam technique book, at https://geni.us/exams *
Podcast edited by Kerri Edinburgh.
*As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases on suggested books.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:02):
Hello and welcome to the Exam Study Experts Podcast.
I'm delighted to be back thisweek with an all-new installment
of our ever-popular StudentStories Sims.
Today I'm joined by aninspirational scholar who
achieved huge successacademically as a young person,
which helped him completelychange his stars and rewrite his
(00:25):
family tree.
Born into, to use his words, apoor community in Guyana, his
work ethic propelled him througha series of very hard-to-come by
scholarships to ultimately endup studying in America and
eventually build a career as anextremely successful global
leader in the pharmaceuticalindustry and more.
(00:46):
His story hits hard for threereasons.
Firstly, the sheer contrastbetween where he came from,
where he ended up in his life,and how pivotal education was in
that journey.
It's a pretty remarkable andpretty inspirational to hit.
And put me in mind, uh, forlongtime listeners, you might
recognize a similar trajectoryfrom Joe's epic story way back
(01:10):
in episode 18.
So if you enjoyed Frank's taletoday, do check out Joe's story
as well for a parallel.
Uh, really, really interestingparallels between those two
examples.
Secondly, uh, in later years,Frank has reflected deeply on
the power of perseverance.
Uh, and in addition to tellingus a little bit about his story,
uh, he's also here to sharetoday some of his great wisdom
(01:33):
on how we can all learn notmerely to bounce back from
adversity, but to bounce, as hesays, bounce forwards, uh, which
I really like.
So, how to overcome adversity,uh, bounce forward to the next
thing, keep learning, keepgrowing.
And thirdly, part of what Frankhas had to come uh through his
journey is unfortunatelyprejudice based on the colour of
(01:55):
his skin.
And this feels like a timelysub-theme uh to have running
through today's episode, giventhat we are releasing this
episode in October, uh, which,as many of you might know, is
Black History Month.
So that felt quite apt at themoment.
So, wherever you are, whoeveryou are, I hope this episode
intrigues, informs, and inspiresyou this week.
(02:18):
I hope you enjoy.
Dr.
Frank Douglas, a very warmwelcome to the Exam Study Expert
Podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (02:25):
Well, thank you very much.
Uh it's delightful to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (02:29):
We're very glad to have you here.
Thank you for your time.
Um I wonder if we could maybejust start.
How do you normally introduceyourself?
How do you normally describe whoyou are, what you've done, what
you do?
SPEAKER_02 (02:41):
Well, I am originally from Guyana.
Grew up in very uh very, Iwouldn't say modest, actually
poor circumstances.
Uh when I grew up, you had topay to go to high school.
Unfortunately, uh some friendsof my mother came together and
found the money for me to go tohigh school.
(03:01):
I did so well the first yearthat I got a scholarship after
that, and have been onscholarships ever since,
including after completing my Alevels for those of you in the
British Commonwealth, the formerBritish Commonwealth, uh, I
worked for about a year and ahalf, then received a Fulbright
(03:25):
scholarship from the U.S.
government, and uh came toAmerica in 1963.
Why that is important, I arrivedin America eight days before the
famous march of Dr.
Martin Luther King inWashington, D.C.
And in those eight daysexperienced discrimination based
(03:47):
on the color of my skin.
I later discovered that he hadmade this famous uh statement
that one day he had hoped, uh hehoped that his children would be
judged by the content of theircharacter and not by the color
of their skin.
So I had experienced that.
Uh I did my bachelor's at LehighUniversity, then went on to
(04:10):
Cornell, where I did a PhD,after which uh I went to work
for Xerox.
And uh facing discriminationthere led me actually to leave
Xerox and go to medical school.
So I'm both a PhD and an MD, andtrained in internal medicine and
what is also calledneuroendocrinology, and started
(04:32):
uh my uh professional life as anacademic uh uh physician, doing
both lab work as well asclinical work.
And I was discovered uh duringthat time by the pharmaceutical
industry and went to thepharmaceutical industry and
started as a director, andwithin three years I became
(04:52):
senior vice presidentresponsible for research for the
US for C Begaygi.
Uh, today it's actuallyNovartis.
Unfortunately, uh, about threeyears later, uh, when my boss,
who was the global head ofresearch and development,
retired, I was called to Basel,Switzerland headquarters.
(05:15):
Uh, and it was explained to methat because of my ethnicity,
although I was the likelysuccessor, I would not get the
job because of my ethnicity.
That caused me to leave uhSibogaigi and joined uh Marin
Merrill Dao, a mid-sized globalpharmaceutical company.
And whilst I was there, I hadthe challenge.
(05:39):
Uh we were faced with losing oneof our blockbusters, and uh uh I
uh made an observation which ledto the uh identification of uh
uh Allegra and the developmentof Allegra in record time, that
brought Maraldao to theattention of Herx, who bought
(06:02):
Mara Meraldau, formed Herx Maraand Rousseau, and turned to me,
uh, although I came from thesmallest of the three companies
that put together to be theglobal head of research and
development, which I remained inthat uh position when it merged
to form Aventus and retired in2004 and returned to academia in
(06:25):
2004.
So that is uh uh in brief uh mybackground.
SPEAKER_00 (06:32):
Amazing.
Um what a what a story.
I'd love to explore some of thethe origins just uh just a
little more.
I mean the the context as youwere as you were growing up, as
you were being raised, you youdescribed it as as as as poor to
use your words.
Just just tell us a little bitabout what life was like in in
in practice, just give us alittle bit of color on that.
SPEAKER_02 (06:53):
Well, in practice, we lived in literally uh in a
one room of uh of a house.
And it was my mother and uh uhat that time uh three three
siblings.
And um my mother was a a asingle mother.
And uh uh as I explained topeople the way I did my
(07:17):
homework, uh there was a agarden, a public garden about a
block away from where we lived,and that's where I went after
school uh to do my homeworkbecause there was no place uh at
home.
You know, I basically uh liveduh outside uh of the our uh
dwelling until it was time tocome in and uh and eat uh
(07:40):
supper, then go to sleep, and Iwould uh go to sleep.
Of course, as I tell people, thefirst time I slept in my own bed
is when I went to college.
Uh I slept on the floor until Iwas 20.
And um uh it was uh in fact I Ilaugh at it now, but I did not
know what to do with the theextra sheet uh that was on the
(08:04):
the bed until one of my uh mycollege mates explained to me
what you do with the blanketsand the sheet, that extra sheet
on the bed.
And so that is what life uh waslike.
I uh also grew up uh in thechurch, which I think in a way
was my salvation because uh atage 12 I gave my uh uh heart uh
(08:28):
to the Lord and became uh veryactive, in fact, became sort of
a boy preacher uh at that time.
And I think that helped me tothen focus on my schoolwork.
And in fact, I I did extremelywell in two exams.
I actually placed uh uh first uhin in Guyana in the two exams,
(08:49):
which was what brought me to theattention, uh I guess of those
who were looking uh to givescholarships uh to Guyanese.
So that uh was my background.
I spent uh a lot of my time uhbasically, you know, in the
church and uh uh in school anduh and uh of course outside of
(09:09):
the home because it was just oneroom, so there was no no place
to really sit around.
SPEAKER_00 (09:16):
And and tell me about your drive to to succeed
and do and do so well in ineducation.
You know, I mean I'm presumingit didn't just sort of happen by
accident.
I I presume you you you workedfor it.
And and I get the sense you'reyou're probably quite a quite a
driven young man.
Just just tell us a little bitmore about that that drive and
where it came from.
(09:37):
I mean you you mentioned faithwas a very important part of
that.
Yeah, just just tell us a littlebit more about what was sort of
driving you to to to achieve atsuch a high level.
SPEAKER_02 (09:44):
Yeah.
As far as I can remember,everyone always uh said, oh, you
know, um he's a very bright boy.
Uh I always remembered uh that.
That's one.
But uh when uh you know thesetwo friends of my mother came
together to pay for me to go tothat first year, I had, you
know, to me, it was such uh anopportunity.
(10:06):
Uh I had to make sure that Imade them proud of me.
And so uh I just uh started uhstudying and taking it
seriously.
And success breeds success.
I suddenly found that I wasbeing very successful.
And in fact, at the end of thatyear, one of the teachers went
to the principal and convincedthe principal to actually skip
(10:30):
me a grade uh so that I couldtake one of the exams a year
early and be in line to get ascholarship to go to the top
boys' school in Guyana.
Uh and I actually had thehighest uh performance on that
exam and went to what is calledQueen's College High School, uh
(10:51):
the top high school for boys inGuyana.
And and that basically justbecame uh part of uh life uh
life for me.
Persevering, working hard uhjust became uh, and one thing,
as a matter of fact, that wasdrilled into me, which is part
(11:12):
of the religious part, is towhom much is given of him is
much required.
And um that stuck with me.
And although I did notunderstand it, it was clear to
me that I was given certaintalents, so therefore I needed
to return those by working veryhard and uh uh and sharing those
(11:38):
uh you know with my family andfriends.
SPEAKER_00 (11:41):
We have listeners in every corner of the globe, uh
including some um lessprivileged parts of the globe.
What would your message be toanyone listening to to this
podcast today through thevarious channels on the podcast
apps, on YouTube, whereverthey've found their way to us?
What would your message be toanyone growing up in sort of
similar circumstances who feelsthey maybe have an aptitude to
(12:04):
learn and and uh you know to putto perform well in education?
Yeah, what would your kind ofmessage be to anyone in that
situation?
SPEAKER_02 (12:11):
It's very simple.
It's hard work and perseverance.
And I'll tell you uh a storythat reinforced that.
When I was in graduate school,and this was now in the late
60s, at a time in uh America, itwas a time of a lot of
demonstration against theVietnam uh uh war, it was the
(12:33):
Black Power Movement, etc.
And I was fairly uh activepolitically until the CIA
visited me and brought an end tothat.
Uh but uh it was recommended tome for me to take my PhD
candidacy exam, which was anoral exam, uh a year earlier
(12:53):
than uh is normally done.
And uh in asking and seekingadvice from the older students,
uh they all told me that what Ishould do is I should basically
visit each of the four memberson my committee who would be
examining me and ask their uhopinion.
Uh and three were non-committal,but one of them, who shortly
(13:16):
thereafter actually became aNobel laureate, so I'll tell you
the caliper, uh he looked at meand he said, You know, Dr.
It's not Dr.
Douglas at that time, he said,You know, Mr.
Douglas, uh, you're not myimpression of a student.
And I said, Yes.
He said, Because in my book, astudent spends eight to twelve
(13:37):
hours a day studying, and I getthe impression you don't spend
four.
Because I hear that, you know,you and one of the your friends
who work for me, you spend yourtime uh going downtown teaching
people how to apply for foodstamps instead of being in
class.
And so we had a uh aconversation in which I was
really quite distraught.
(13:59):
Uh and uh at the end of it hesaid to me, you know, we brought
30 of you into this class, andone-third of you will never get
a PhD in chemistry at Cornell.
Not because you're not bright,you're here because you're
bright, but because you do notpersevere, and when things get
(14:23):
difficult, you don't work.
It's all about hard work andperseverance.
And I left his office and thatbecame my mantra.
And even though part of that Iworked, I worked hard and I
persevered, it was at adifferent level.
(14:44):
Even as an undergraduate incollege, I didn't really work as
hard as I could have.
But in graduate school, itdemanded something more.
And I understood, you know, Iunderstood precisely what he
meant.
And so uh I I stopped, andparticularly after my visit by
the CIA, I stopped my politicalactivity and the buckle down and
(15:07):
the message I give to everyone,it doesn't matter where you are,
what you are doing, it is abouthard work and perseverance.
SPEAKER_00 (15:18):
So I guess of the two, possibly the harder one to
put into practice isperseverance, particularly when
things get tough, right?
I mean, that's that's the waythe rip rubber really meets the
road.
Can you keep going even whenyou're you're get facing
setbacks, you know, you're notmaking the progress you want,
you're frustrated, you'redisappointed.
Are there any tools that youyou've learned or that you might
(15:41):
be able to share with us thathow how we approach and overcome
those challenges?
SPEAKER_02 (15:46):
Yeah, I'll tell you what uh my my my passion now is
is to uh basically to uh sharewith the people uh how one uh
perseveres.
And uh one of the things uh uh Iactually do have a podcast also
which is called Reframe forResilience.
Recently I changed that podcastto the anti-fragility reframe
(16:13):
podcast.
Nasim Talib wrote a book,Anti-Fragility, in which uh he
gives many examples in differentfields, but the point he makes
is resilience helps us to bounceback from stress or challenge.
But what we really need to do iswhat I say bounce forward to get
(16:36):
stronger after a challenge.
And so my focus has become howdo we look at a challenge or
stress that we have and focus onbecoming stronger because of
that stress.
How do we bounce forward?
And uh and so that's uh what uhmy focus is.
(16:59):
And you know, and there are someuh simple things, some of which
uh I did to enable me actuallyto succeed.
I've taken some of those lessonsand put them into what I call my
anti-fragility reframemethodology, because those were
some of the things that I hadpracticed without even realizing
their importance, except thatthey were working for me.
SPEAKER_00 (17:22):
I mean, I'm sure it's quite a big subject, and
I'm sure you've done a lot ofthinking on this, but but are
there kind of a few simple onesyou might be able to share a
little of with us today so wecan sort of take some practical
ideas away uh to apply to ourindustry?
SPEAKER_02 (17:33):
Yes.
Let me give an example in factthis is where all of this began.
And I mentioned uh that I leftuh C Baggy.
Uh sorry, yeah.
I left Xerox.
I left C Baggy later for anotherreason, but I left Xerox after
I'd completed my PhD.
I first had a job.
And for three months, when Ijoined Xerox, I could not get a
(17:56):
good project.
And one day a young white manjoined the group, uh, and within
a week he was placed on one ofthe most exciting projects that
we had at the time.
So I went to talk with my boss,and I was just very stunned to
see his expression when I saidto him, uh, you know, Steve,
don't think of me as though I amFrank.
(18:17):
Think of me as though I'm Bob.
And he looked at me and he said,You know, you're right.
Bob has been here a week andI've put him on the archery
project.
Well, I was furious.
I ran out of his office, down tothe office of the senior vice
president to give him yetanother example of my being
(18:38):
discriminated against.
Well, two years later, I'msitting uh in in medical school
thinking about that episode andrealizing that I had made two
errors.
The first error was that Dr.
Tribes, the senior vicepresident, that summer had hired
three young black PhDs, I beingone of them, to join the single,
(19:01):
the one black PhD that Xerox hadin research and development at
that time.
So it probably was moreimportant to him that Frank
Douglas would do well than itwas to Frank Douglas.
The second error I made is thatI was not clear on what my
desired outcome was.
It was not for the senior vicepresident to go and have tough
(19:24):
words with my boss.
For heaven's sake, I was afreshly minted PhD.
I wanted to show my stuff.
I wanted to show people what Icould do.
So had I reframed, had I put itdifferently, and had I said to
the senior vice president, youknow, Dr.
Tribus, could you help my bossfind me a good project?
(19:45):
I have to say, he was two, threelevels above my boss.
He would have walked into hisoffice, he would have said, find
a man a good project.
It would have happenedyesterday.
Now, in 2018, when I was writingmy memoirs and writing that
episode, I realized that I hadactually learned from it.
Because thereafter, starting inmedical school, where I had lots
(20:09):
of challenges, I began to lookfor what I called a better
problem to solve when I had aproblem.
And so instead of focusing on myproblem, I would try to find a
problem that others wereexperiencing that was similar to
mine, because I observed that ifI went and discussed that
problem rather than my problem,the supervisor or whomever would
(20:32):
become engaged in that problem.
And once they were engaged intrying to solve that problem,
then I could say, and you know,if you solve that problem, it
would really help me.
And you know, later, of course,uh after I was writing uh my
memoirs, I began to call it uhmy reframe methodology.
So in the reframe methodology isthat if you have a problem, one
(20:55):
of the things is you need to bevery clear on your desired
outcome, not just for thatproblem, but think two, three
years out.
What's your desired outcome?
And then also think about youknow broader benefit.
If there were a solution, whoelse in your area on your team
(21:17):
could uh benefit?
And try to find what I call thebetter problem to solve.
That's your reframe.
And uh another aspect of it iswith the broader benefit, it
gives you a chance now to beinclusive, namely to bring
others in to find innovativesolutions to the problem.
(21:39):
So you go from the aggrieved eyeto the productive we.
And uh, you know, so that's uhsort of what I uh I try to coach
uh people and teams uh basicallyto do.
Now, with respect toanti-fragility, is we ask the
additional question, how wouldthat make you or the team better
(22:04):
or stronger, etc.?
We give that additional uhchallenge, you know, which uh of
course, and and then and and thewhole part of it starts off with
uh the reframing.
You you you have to uh to changeperspective.
You have to be prepared to lookat the problem through different
lens.
(22:24):
And uh so shifting perspectiveis uh an important part of the
reframe methodology that Idiscuss with people.
SPEAKER_00 (22:34):
I think that's great advice.
I think you can think of lots ofexamples of where you might find
applications for that at variousstages of of learning in
academia.
I mean, you know, that kind ofconversation you were having
with your boss's boss's boss orwhatever it was, you know,
that's that's the sort ofconversation, you know, whether
it's about a racial issue,whether it's about some other
(22:54):
form of, you know, you feelyou're not getting what you want
from your your program, youknow, particularly at a sort of
high level of academia, youknow, you're in a PhD program or
something and it's not quitegoing right, you're not getting
the support you need, whatever.
You know, that way ofapproaching it, that kind of
quite constructive way ofapproaching it, having that
clear end in mind, how can wehave a broader benefit for
everyone?
Ultimately, I think ineducation, I think, you know,
(23:14):
the majority of the time, thepeople that you know are they
supervising you, teaching you,mentoring you, they want you to
succeed, and it's in theirinterests for you to succeed.
And so uh helping you succeed isis is very much in everybody's
interests.
Everybody's on the same page onthat, you know, the majority of
times.
So that's that's a really goodstarting point.
(23:35):
And then yeah, thinking aboutthat that better problem to
solve rather than just going inthere all guns blazing with your
list of complaints.
Um, you know, how can we have aconstructive conversation about
this?
Um I love that phrase you used,you know, could you help?
Dot dot dot.
You know, could you help in thiscase, could you help my boss put
me on a better project?
Yeah, of course.
That's that's a very concreteproblem to solve.
(23:56):
I can do that, and that clearbenefits for everybody.
Um yeah, that's reallyinteresting.
Well, I mean, on on that note,and and conscious we our time is
drawing towards an end uh forfor today, but um it's been it's
been so so interesting talking,hearing a little bit about your
story, uh some of the practicalthings you've been working on in
more recent years, uh, you know,reframing methodology and and
(24:19):
and bouncing forward.
I I'll remember that phrase, Ireally like that.
I wonder we we are going to bebroadcasting this episode um uh
in Black History Month, October2025.
Uh, I wonder on that theme, youknow, we've had the theme
running throughout theconversation, but I wonder if
you had a message for our forour audience, for our listeners
on that theme uh as as we bringthe conversation towards an end.
SPEAKER_02 (24:42):
Yeah, as a matter of fact, for that that theme, I
think it becomes very importantuh to uh remind young people
particularly that it's notenough to be resilient, to bunce
back, but to bunce forward, tobe anti-fragile, and indeed to
do two things to be clear onwhat is their desired outcome,
(25:08):
not immediately, but three, fouryears from now, and how does
that improve the lot of othersbroadening benefit?
Those two things are really veryimportant, and if they have
those two things, they are goingto be able to better align their
(25:29):
talents with the purpose oftheir life, and it will help
them to find purpose of theirlife, and so that's the message
that I would like to give them.
And in fact, if you look at themany leaders with whom we have
been blessed uh in the the theblack and Hispanic community,
(25:50):
you can see those things thatthey had clear uh vision about
what needed to be done.
They persevered with it, and itwas not about them personally,
it was benefit for others.
(26:11):
It was benefit for others.
SPEAKER_00 (26:14):
Absolutely, so so powerful.
Frank, thank you so much fortoday.
It's been been such afascinating conversation.
Uh if people want to find outmore about your work, books,
podcasts, the work you dospeaking, uh where would you
signpost them to?
SPEAKER_02 (26:27):
The safe haven dialogues.
And if they go to safe havendialogues, com that's our
website.
But look for safe havendialogues, hyphenlc.com, and uh
they'll find a lot of ourpodcasts, uh books and uh
courses, etc.
SPEAKER_00 (26:49):
Phenomenal, phenomenal.
Dr.
Frank Douglas, thank you so muchonce again.
SPEAKER_02 (26:54):
Oh, thank you.
I enjoy the conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (26:58):
I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Dr.
Frank Douglas.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday.
Remember, if you get value fromthe podcast and you enjoy the
work we do, please take a momentto support the channel uh by
liking, subscribing, uh,following, and sharing what we
do.
Your support is hugely, hugelyvaluable.
(27:22):
And if you're on a platform uhthat supports this, uh
particularly YouTube andSpotify, uh, do leave us a
comment on the episode down inthe comment section.
Uh we read them all and reallyenjoy hearing what you thought
of the episode, uh, thingsyou're going to act on, things
that related, things thatresonated.
And if you have particularquestions, I will do my best to
get to those as well.
(27:44):
So thank you so much once againfor tuning in this week, and I
will look forward to seeing youagain soon.
Wishing you every success, asalways, in your studies.
SPEAKER_01 (27:53):
Well, that was good, wasn't it?
I found myself taking notes.
If you need a reminder ofanything from today, head to the
website for a write up of thisepisode, as well as lots more
top knock advice and resources.
That's uh examstudyexpert.com.
See you next time.
Hello and welcome to the Exam Study Experts Podcast.
I'm delighted to be back thisweek with an all-new installment
of our ever-popular StudentStories Sims.
Today I'm joined by aninspirational scholar who
achieved huge successacademically as a young person,
which helped him completelychange his stars and rewrite his
(00:25):
family tree.
Born into, to use his words, apoor community in Guyana, his
work ethic propelled him througha series of very hard-to-come by
scholarships to ultimately endup studying in America and
eventually build a career as anextremely successful global
leader in the pharmaceuticalindustry and more.
(00:46):
His story hits hard for threereasons.
Firstly, the sheer contrastbetween where he came from,
where he ended up in his life,and how pivotal education was in
that journey.
It's a pretty remarkable andpretty inspirational to hit.
And put me in mind, uh, forlongtime listeners, you might
recognize a similar trajectoryfrom Joe's epic story way back
(01:10):
in episode 18.
So if you enjoyed Frank's taletoday, do check out Joe's story
as well for a parallel.
Uh, really, really interestingparallels between those two
examples.
Secondly, uh, in later years,Frank has reflected deeply on
the power of perseverance.
Uh, and in addition to tellingus a little bit about his story,
uh, he's also here to sharetoday some of his great wisdom
(01:33):
on how we can all learn notmerely to bounce back from
adversity, but to bounce, as hesays, bounce forwards, uh, which
I really like.
So, how to overcome adversity,uh, bounce forward to the next
thing, keep learning, keepgrowing.
And thirdly, part of what Frankhas had to come uh through his
journey is unfortunatelyprejudice based on the colour of
(01:55):
his skin.
And this feels like a timelysub-theme uh to have running
through today's episode, giventhat we are releasing this
episode in October, uh, which,as many of you might know, is
Black History Month.
So that felt quite apt at themoment.
So, wherever you are, whoeveryou are, I hope this episode
intrigues, informs, and inspiresyou this week.
(02:18):
I hope you enjoy.
Dr.
Frank Douglas, a very warmwelcome to the Exam Study Expert
Podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (02:25):
Well, thank you very much.
Uh it's delightful to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (02:29):
We're very glad to have you here.
Thank you for your time.
Um I wonder if we could maybejust start.
How do you normally introduceyourself?
How do you normally describe whoyou are, what you've done, what
you do?
SPEAKER_02 (02:41):
Well, I am originally from Guyana.
Grew up in very uh very, Iwouldn't say modest, actually
poor circumstances.
Uh when I grew up, you had topay to go to high school.
Unfortunately, uh some friendsof my mother came together and
found the money for me to go tohigh school.
(03:01):
I did so well the first yearthat I got a scholarship after
that, and have been onscholarships ever since,
including after completing my Alevels for those of you in the
British Commonwealth, the formerBritish Commonwealth, uh, I
worked for about a year and ahalf, then received a Fulbright
(03:25):
scholarship from the U.S.
government, and uh came toAmerica in 1963.
Why that is important, I arrivedin America eight days before the
famous march of Dr.
Martin Luther King inWashington, D.C.
And in those eight daysexperienced discrimination based
(03:47):
on the color of my skin.
I later discovered that he hadmade this famous uh statement
that one day he had hoped, uh hehoped that his children would be
judged by the content of theircharacter and not by the color
of their skin.
So I had experienced that.
Uh I did my bachelor's at LehighUniversity, then went on to
(04:10):
Cornell, where I did a PhD,after which uh I went to work
for Xerox.
And uh facing discriminationthere led me actually to leave
Xerox and go to medical school.
So I'm both a PhD and an MD, andtrained in internal medicine and
what is also calledneuroendocrinology, and started
(04:32):
uh my uh professional life as anacademic uh uh physician, doing
both lab work as well asclinical work.
And I was discovered uh duringthat time by the pharmaceutical
industry and went to thepharmaceutical industry and
started as a director, andwithin three years I became
(04:52):
senior vice presidentresponsible for research for the
US for C Begaygi.
Uh, today it's actuallyNovartis.
Unfortunately, uh, about threeyears later, uh, when my boss,
who was the global head ofresearch and development,
retired, I was called to Basel,Switzerland headquarters.
(05:15):
Uh, and it was explained to methat because of my ethnicity,
although I was the likelysuccessor, I would not get the
job because of my ethnicity.
That caused me to leave uhSibogaigi and joined uh Marin
Merrill Dao, a mid-sized globalpharmaceutical company.
And whilst I was there, I hadthe challenge.
(05:39):
Uh we were faced with losing oneof our blockbusters, and uh uh I
uh made an observation which ledto the uh identification of uh
uh Allegra and the developmentof Allegra in record time, that
brought Maraldao to theattention of Herx, who bought
(06:02):
Mara Meraldau, formed Herx Maraand Rousseau, and turned to me,
uh, although I came from thesmallest of the three companies
that put together to be theglobal head of research and
development, which I remained inthat uh position when it merged
to form Aventus and retired in2004 and returned to academia in
(06:25):
2004.
So that is uh uh in brief uh mybackground.
SPEAKER_00 (06:32):
Amazing.
Um what a what a story.
I'd love to explore some of thethe origins just uh just a
little more.
I mean the the context as youwere as you were growing up, as
you were being raised, you youdescribed it as as as as poor to
use your words.
Just just tell us a little bitabout what life was like in in
in practice, just give us alittle bit of color on that.
SPEAKER_02 (06:53):
Well, in practice, we lived in literally uh in a
one room of uh of a house.
And it was my mother and uh uhat that time uh three three
siblings.
And um my mother was a a asingle mother.
And uh uh as I explained topeople the way I did my
(07:17):
homework, uh there was a agarden, a public garden about a
block away from where we lived,and that's where I went after
school uh to do my homeworkbecause there was no place uh at
home.
You know, I basically uh liveduh outside uh of the our uh
dwelling until it was time tocome in and uh and eat uh
(07:40):
supper, then go to sleep, and Iwould uh go to sleep.
Of course, as I tell people, thefirst time I slept in my own bed
is when I went to college.
Uh I slept on the floor until Iwas 20.
And um uh it was uh in fact I Ilaugh at it now, but I did not
know what to do with the theextra sheet uh that was on the
(08:04):
the bed until one of my uh mycollege mates explained to me
what you do with the blanketsand the sheet, that extra sheet
on the bed.
And so that is what life uh waslike.
I uh also grew up uh in thechurch, which I think in a way
was my salvation because uh atage 12 I gave my uh uh heart uh
(08:28):
to the Lord and became uh veryactive, in fact, became sort of
a boy preacher uh at that time.
And I think that helped me tothen focus on my schoolwork.
And in fact, I I did extremelywell in two exams.
I actually placed uh uh first uhin in Guyana in the two exams,
(08:49):
which was what brought me to theattention, uh I guess of those
who were looking uh to givescholarships uh to Guyanese.
So that uh was my background.
I spent uh a lot of my time uhbasically, you know, in the
church and uh uh in school anduh and uh of course outside of
(09:09):
the home because it was just oneroom, so there was no no place
to really sit around.
SPEAKER_00 (09:16):
And and tell me about your drive to to succeed
and do and do so well in ineducation.
You know, I mean I'm presumingit didn't just sort of happen by
accident.
I I presume you you you workedfor it.
And and I get the sense you'reyou're probably quite a quite a
driven young man.
Just just tell us a little bitmore about that that drive and
where it came from.
(09:37):
I mean you you mentioned faithwas a very important part of
that.
Yeah, just just tell us a littlebit more about what was sort of
driving you to to to achieve atsuch a high level.
SPEAKER_02 (09:44):
Yeah.
As far as I can remember,everyone always uh said, oh, you
know, um he's a very bright boy.
Uh I always remembered uh that.
That's one.
But uh when uh you know thesetwo friends of my mother came
together to pay for me to go tothat first year, I had, you
know, to me, it was such uh anopportunity.
(10:06):
Uh I had to make sure that Imade them proud of me.
And so uh I just uh started uhstudying and taking it
seriously.
And success breeds success.
I suddenly found that I wasbeing very successful.
And in fact, at the end of thatyear, one of the teachers went
to the principal and convincedthe principal to actually skip
(10:30):
me a grade uh so that I couldtake one of the exams a year
early and be in line to get ascholarship to go to the top
boys' school in Guyana.
Uh and I actually had thehighest uh performance on that
exam and went to what is calledQueen's College High School, uh
(10:51):
the top high school for boys inGuyana.
And and that basically justbecame uh part of uh life uh
life for me.
Persevering, working hard uhjust became uh, and one thing,
as a matter of fact, that wasdrilled into me, which is part
(11:12):
of the religious part, is towhom much is given of him is
much required.
And um that stuck with me.
And although I did notunderstand it, it was clear to
me that I was given certaintalents, so therefore I needed
to return those by working veryhard and uh uh and sharing those
(11:38):
uh you know with my family andfriends.
SPEAKER_00 (11:41):
We have listeners in every corner of the globe, uh
including some um lessprivileged parts of the globe.
What would your message be toanyone listening to to this
podcast today through thevarious channels on the podcast
apps, on YouTube, whereverthey've found their way to us?
What would your message be toanyone growing up in sort of
similar circumstances who feelsthey maybe have an aptitude to
(12:04):
learn and and uh you know to putto perform well in education?
Yeah, what would your kind ofmessage be to anyone in that
situation?
SPEAKER_02 (12:11):
It's very simple.
It's hard work and perseverance.
And I'll tell you uh a storythat reinforced that.
When I was in graduate school,and this was now in the late
60s, at a time in uh America, itwas a time of a lot of
demonstration against theVietnam uh uh war, it was the
(12:33):
Black Power Movement, etc.
And I was fairly uh activepolitically until the CIA
visited me and brought an end tothat.
Uh but uh it was recommended tome for me to take my PhD
candidacy exam, which was anoral exam, uh a year earlier
(12:53):
than uh is normally done.
And uh in asking and seekingadvice from the older students,
uh they all told me that what Ishould do is I should basically
visit each of the four memberson my committee who would be
examining me and ask their uhopinion.
Uh and three were non-committal,but one of them, who shortly
(13:16):
thereafter actually became aNobel laureate, so I'll tell you
the caliper, uh he looked at meand he said, You know, Dr.
It's not Dr.
Douglas at that time, he said,You know, Mr.
Douglas, uh, you're not myimpression of a student.
And I said, Yes.
He said, Because in my book, astudent spends eight to twelve
(13:37):
hours a day studying, and I getthe impression you don't spend
four.
Because I hear that, you know,you and one of the your friends
who work for me, you spend yourtime uh going downtown teaching
people how to apply for foodstamps instead of being in
class.
And so we had a uh aconversation in which I was
really quite distraught.
(13:59):
Uh and uh at the end of it hesaid to me, you know, we brought
30 of you into this class, andone-third of you will never get
a PhD in chemistry at Cornell.
Not because you're not bright,you're here because you're
bright, but because you do notpersevere, and when things get
(14:23):
difficult, you don't work.
It's all about hard work andperseverance.
And I left his office and thatbecame my mantra.
And even though part of that Iworked, I worked hard and I
persevered, it was at adifferent level.
(14:44):
Even as an undergraduate incollege, I didn't really work as
hard as I could have.
But in graduate school, itdemanded something more.
And I understood, you know, Iunderstood precisely what he
meant.
And so uh I I stopped, andparticularly after my visit by
the CIA, I stopped my politicalactivity and the buckle down and
(15:07):
the message I give to everyone,it doesn't matter where you are,
what you are doing, it is abouthard work and perseverance.
SPEAKER_00 (15:18):
So I guess of the two, possibly the harder one to
put into practice isperseverance, particularly when
things get tough, right?
I mean, that's that's the waythe rip rubber really meets the
road.
Can you keep going even whenyou're you're get facing
setbacks, you know, you're notmaking the progress you want,
you're frustrated, you'redisappointed.
Are there any tools that youyou've learned or that you might
(15:41):
be able to share with us thathow how we approach and overcome
those challenges?
SPEAKER_02 (15:46):
Yeah, I'll tell you what uh my my my passion now is
is to uh basically to uh sharewith the people uh how one uh
perseveres.
And uh one of the things uh uh Iactually do have a podcast also
which is called Reframe forResilience.
Recently I changed that podcastto the anti-fragility reframe
(16:13):
podcast.
Nasim Talib wrote a book,Anti-Fragility, in which uh he
gives many examples in differentfields, but the point he makes
is resilience helps us to bounceback from stress or challenge.
But what we really need to do iswhat I say bounce forward to get
(16:36):
stronger after a challenge.
And so my focus has become howdo we look at a challenge or
stress that we have and focus onbecoming stronger because of
that stress.
How do we bounce forward?
And uh and so that's uh what uhmy focus is.
(16:59):
And you know, and there are someuh simple things, some of which
uh I did to enable me actuallyto succeed.
I've taken some of those lessonsand put them into what I call my
anti-fragility reframemethodology, because those were
some of the things that I hadpracticed without even realizing
their importance, except thatthey were working for me.
SPEAKER_00 (17:22):
I mean, I'm sure it's quite a big subject, and
I'm sure you've done a lot ofthinking on this, but but are
there kind of a few simple onesyou might be able to share a
little of with us today so wecan sort of take some practical
ideas away uh to apply to ourindustry?
SPEAKER_02 (17:33):
Yes.
Let me give an example in factthis is where all of this began.
And I mentioned uh that I leftuh C Baggy.
Uh sorry, yeah.
I left Xerox.
I left C Baggy later for anotherreason, but I left Xerox after
I'd completed my PhD.
I first had a job.
And for three months, when Ijoined Xerox, I could not get a
(17:56):
good project.
And one day a young white manjoined the group, uh, and within
a week he was placed on one ofthe most exciting projects that
we had at the time.
So I went to talk with my boss,and I was just very stunned to
see his expression when I saidto him, uh, you know, Steve,
don't think of me as though I amFrank.
(18:17):
Think of me as though I'm Bob.
And he looked at me and he said,You know, you're right.
Bob has been here a week andI've put him on the archery
project.
Well, I was furious.
I ran out of his office, down tothe office of the senior vice
president to give him yetanother example of my being
(18:38):
discriminated against.
Well, two years later, I'msitting uh in in medical school
thinking about that episode andrealizing that I had made two
errors.
The first error was that Dr.
Tribes, the senior vicepresident, that summer had hired
three young black PhDs, I beingone of them, to join the single,
(19:01):
the one black PhD that Xerox hadin research and development at
that time.
So it probably was moreimportant to him that Frank
Douglas would do well than itwas to Frank Douglas.
The second error I made is thatI was not clear on what my
desired outcome was.
It was not for the senior vicepresident to go and have tough
(19:24):
words with my boss.
For heaven's sake, I was afreshly minted PhD.
I wanted to show my stuff.
I wanted to show people what Icould do.
So had I reframed, had I put itdifferently, and had I said to
the senior vice president, youknow, Dr.
Tribus, could you help my bossfind me a good project?
(19:45):
I have to say, he was two, threelevels above my boss.
He would have walked into hisoffice, he would have said, find
a man a good project.
It would have happenedyesterday.
Now, in 2018, when I was writingmy memoirs and writing that
episode, I realized that I hadactually learned from it.
Because thereafter, starting inmedical school, where I had lots
(20:09):
of challenges, I began to lookfor what I called a better
problem to solve when I had aproblem.
And so instead of focusing on myproblem, I would try to find a
problem that others wereexperiencing that was similar to
mine, because I observed that ifI went and discussed that
problem rather than my problem,the supervisor or whomever would
(20:32):
become engaged in that problem.
And once they were engaged intrying to solve that problem,
then I could say, and you know,if you solve that problem, it
would really help me.
And you know, later, of course,uh after I was writing uh my
memoirs, I began to call it uhmy reframe methodology.
So in the reframe methodology isthat if you have a problem, one
(20:55):
of the things is you need to bevery clear on your desired
outcome, not just for thatproblem, but think two, three
years out.
What's your desired outcome?
And then also think about youknow broader benefit.
If there were a solution, whoelse in your area on your team
(21:17):
could uh benefit?
And try to find what I call thebetter problem to solve.
That's your reframe.
And uh another aspect of it iswith the broader benefit, it
gives you a chance now to beinclusive, namely to bring
others in to find innovativesolutions to the problem.
(21:39):
So you go from the aggrieved eyeto the productive we.
And uh, you know, so that's uhsort of what I uh I try to coach
uh people and teams uh basicallyto do.
Now, with respect toanti-fragility, is we ask the
additional question, how wouldthat make you or the team better
(22:04):
or stronger, etc.?
We give that additional uhchallenge, you know, which uh of
course, and and then and and thewhole part of it starts off with
uh the reframing.
You you you have to uh to changeperspective.
You have to be prepared to lookat the problem through different
lens.
(22:24):
And uh so shifting perspectiveis uh an important part of the
reframe methodology that Idiscuss with people.
SPEAKER_00 (22:34):
I think that's great advice.
I think you can think of lots ofexamples of where you might find
applications for that at variousstages of of learning in
academia.
I mean, you know, that kind ofconversation you were having
with your boss's boss's boss orwhatever it was, you know,
that's that's the sort ofconversation, you know, whether
it's about a racial issue,whether it's about some other
(22:54):
form of, you know, you feelyou're not getting what you want
from your your program, youknow, particularly at a sort of
high level of academia, youknow, you're in a PhD program or
something and it's not quitegoing right, you're not getting
the support you need, whatever.
You know, that way ofapproaching it, that kind of
quite constructive way ofapproaching it, having that
clear end in mind, how can wehave a broader benefit for
everyone?
Ultimately, I think ineducation, I think, you know,
(23:14):
the majority of the time, thepeople that you know are they
supervising you, teaching you,mentoring you, they want you to
succeed, and it's in theirinterests for you to succeed.
And so uh helping you succeed isis is very much in everybody's
interests.
Everybody's on the same page onthat, you know, the majority of
times.
So that's that's a really goodstarting point.
(23:35):
And then yeah, thinking aboutthat that better problem to
solve rather than just going inthere all guns blazing with your
list of complaints.
Um, you know, how can we have aconstructive conversation about
this?
Um I love that phrase you used,you know, could you help?
Dot dot dot.
You know, could you help in thiscase, could you help my boss put
me on a better project?
Yeah, of course.
That's that's a very concreteproblem to solve.
(23:56):
I can do that, and that clearbenefits for everybody.
Um yeah, that's reallyinteresting.
Well, I mean, on on that note,and and conscious we our time is
drawing towards an end uh forfor today, but um it's been it's
been so so interesting talking,hearing a little bit about your
story, uh some of the practicalthings you've been working on in
more recent years, uh, you know,reframing methodology and and
(24:19):
and bouncing forward.
I I'll remember that phrase, Ireally like that.
I wonder we we are going to bebroadcasting this episode um uh
in Black History Month, October2025.
Uh, I wonder on that theme, youknow, we've had the theme
running throughout theconversation, but I wonder if
you had a message for our forour audience, for our listeners
on that theme uh as as we bringthe conversation towards an end.
SPEAKER_02 (24:42):
Yeah, as a matter of fact, for that that theme, I
think it becomes very importantuh to uh remind young people
particularly that it's notenough to be resilient, to bunce
back, but to bunce forward, tobe anti-fragile, and indeed to
do two things to be clear onwhat is their desired outcome,
(25:08):
not immediately, but three, fouryears from now, and how does
that improve the lot of othersbroadening benefit?
Those two things are really veryimportant, and if they have
those two things, they are goingto be able to better align their
(25:29):
talents with the purpose oftheir life, and it will help
them to find purpose of theirlife, and so that's the message
that I would like to give them.
And in fact, if you look at themany leaders with whom we have
been blessed uh in the the theblack and Hispanic community,
(25:50):
you can see those things thatthey had clear uh vision about
what needed to be done.
They persevered with it, and itwas not about them personally,
it was benefit for others.
(26:11):
It was benefit for others.
SPEAKER_00 (26:14):
Absolutely, so so powerful.
Frank, thank you so much fortoday.
It's been been such afascinating conversation.
Uh if people want to find outmore about your work, books,
podcasts, the work you dospeaking, uh where would you
signpost them to?
SPEAKER_02 (26:27):
The safe haven dialogues.
And if they go to safe havendialogues, com that's our
website.
But look for safe havendialogues, hyphenlc.com, and uh
they'll find a lot of ourpodcasts, uh books and uh
courses, etc.
SPEAKER_00 (26:49):
Phenomenal, phenomenal.
Dr.
Frank Douglas, thank you so muchonce again.
SPEAKER_02 (26:54):
Oh, thank you.
I enjoy the conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (26:58):
I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Dr.
Frank Douglas.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday.
Remember, if you get value fromthe podcast and you enjoy the
work we do, please take a momentto support the channel uh by
liking, subscribing, uh,following, and sharing what we
do.
Your support is hugely, hugelyvaluable.
(27:22):
And if you're on a platform uhthat supports this, uh
particularly YouTube andSpotify, uh, do leave us a
comment on the episode down inthe comment section.
Uh we read them all and reallyenjoy hearing what you thought
of the episode, uh, thingsyou're going to act on, things
that related, things thatresonated.
And if you have particularquestions, I will do my best to
get to those as well.
(27:44):
So thank you so much once againfor tuning in this week, and I
will look forward to seeing youagain soon.
Wishing you every success, asalways, in your studies.
SPEAKER_01 (27:53):
Well, that was good, wasn't it?
I found myself taking notes.
If you need a reminder ofanything from today, head to the
website for a write up of thisepisode, as well as lots more
top knock advice and resources.
That's uh examstudyexpert.com.
See you next time.
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