March 13, 2025 • 50 mins
There's a raw honesty that hits you from the first moment of this episode as Josh opens up about his lifelong relationship with anger. "Anger is my go-to emotion," he admits without hesitation, "and it's the emotion I filter all other things through, because anger is easy for me to process." What follows is a deeply personal exploration of how this pattern affected his marriage and the journey toward healthier emotional processing.
Many listeners will recognize themselves or their partners in this conversation. The pattern is common - we take complex emotions like sadness, anxiety, fear, and disappointment and channel them into anger because anger feels manageable and actionable. But as Josh and Debbie reveal through their story, this coping mechanism comes with a steep price in relationships, creating what Josh poignantly calls "collateral damage."
The strength of this episode lies in its dual perspective. We hear not just from Josh about his internal struggles, but from Debbie about what it feels like to be on the receiving end of misdirected anger. "I didn't feel like I was in... there was a duality there," she shares. "I didn't feel connected to you, like I could completely come to you and pour my heart out." Her insight provides a crucial window into the isolation and disconnection that partners often experience.
What makes this conversation truly valuable, however, is the roadmap it offers for change. The turning point came through personal accountability - "My life is where it is because of me, because of the choices I made," - and a willingness to do the hard work of examining patterns and making different choices. Biblical principles provided a framework, particularly Ephesians 5:25, which challenged Josh to love sacrificially, laying down not just external things but internal barriers as well.
Whether you're struggling with managing your own anger or navigating life with someone who is, this episode offers both compassion and practical wisdom. The message is clear: patterns can change, relationships can heal, and anger itself can become not just a destructive force, but a catalyst for positive transformation when properly channeled. As Josh reminds us, "You have to hate something enough to change it."
Have you found yourself caught in similar patterns? We'd love to hear your story of challenge and growth. Reach out through our website or social media channels and join the conversation about strengthening families through honest communication and faith.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, it is Josh and on this episode, man, we're
really going to open up somehard stuff and really jump into
anger how to deal with, how toprocess, how to deal with a
spouse who is angry all the time, and some of the tips, tools
and things that you can get intothat.
So buckle up, let's strengthenthe family through faith and
(00:42):
fishing.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
One podcast at a time , one fishing trip at a time.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I'm going to start a little different.
If you find this helpful, do usa favor and just share.
Share it with someone you know.
Go, hey, here's a podcastdesigned to help the family.
You can also follow us onsocial media subscribe, do all
the things.
You know what to do.
We live in 2025, people Allright.
(01:12):
So you asked what we're doingon this episode.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Because I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Because you never have any idea, because I don't
tell you.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
You love surprising me.
I do Not in a good way.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Well, and I like hearing your general react not
general, genuine, genuine, yeahreaction.
Um, this one's actually goingto be kind of a I want to start
this kind of series on how tookay, okay, so, so some how to
um marriage and family and andthings like that.
(01:45):
Why, why are you staring at melike that?
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I'm trying to see how it's the mic.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
It's not you, it's me it's you 90 percent of the time
is you, it's true, but this oneum by far going to be the
easiest.
Lowest hanging fruit.
You should have quite a bit umto say in this one is how to
deal with an angry spouse isthis a trick podcast?
(02:17):
why, nothing, keep going no,it's not a trick podcast.
I just I know like when youlook out, you see a lot of
anxiety, you see a lot ofdivision, you see a lot of anger
in people.
Um, you know, and for some,honestly, it just it seems like
(02:40):
the new normal um yes and and Iwent.
You know this is an area notonly do you have the educational
background in, but you alsohave the practical background in
, in dealing with me, because,for those of you that may not
(03:00):
know me and anger, we're friendslike like.
Uh, it's been a journey to getto where I am now.
Um, you've come a long waybecause I mean I and let's get
something out of the way rightnow.
Okay, I don't mind using myselffor examples.
(03:22):
I don't want people to think itwas worse than what it is Like.
I've never been like so angryand out of control or anything
Never never, been anything likethat.
But anger is my go-to emotionand it's the emotion I filter
all other things through,because anger is easy for me to
process.
Anger is in most guys.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Anger makes sense to you Right.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Um well, it's easy to get out.
Right, yeah, that's true, it'sa super easy emotion to get out.
You know you can do a real bigworkout.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
You can punch a wall.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Punch a wall.
You can, you know.
Listen to anger music Rightthere's a lot of easy ways to
get anger out, so I think itjust became easy for me
throughout life to cling to it.
Turn everything into anger.
You know sadness and and youknow low points, like you know
anxiety.
All of all of the negativeemotion you know.
(04:14):
Turn it into anger and thendeal with the anger, because
anger is easy to deal with.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
It's like the bag you would stuff it in and go.
Now I'm going to take care ofthis bag.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Right, and so I learned how to do that.
You know at a younger age.
You know through tempertantrums and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Do you even think because you were bullied as a
kid?
Do you think some of thathappened at that point where,
like you would, you were sad andthen it would cause you to get
angry.
And then you, because I know,even when you got older, when
you know, your face startedclearing up and then you started
getting all the muscles all themuscles and then all the people
that made fun of you were likeoh hey, josh, like did was.
(04:52):
Was there anger there?
um yeah, like does that makesense?
My question makes sense it does.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Um, and, and yeah, of course there was anger there,
there was hurt, there wasrejection, there was fear, there
was anxiety, there wasdepression.
I mean there was all thosethings.
Um, and, like I said, for mepersonally it was just hey, turn
it into anger and then dealwith the anger, right, which is
it's super easy.
And when you're by yourself, um, you know when, when you're not
(05:23):
in the confines of arelationship, right, it's super,
super easy to deal with anger.
Um, like I said, I can go on arun, you know.
I can go do a real heavyworkout.
I could go um, you know, doyard work or you know anything
of that nature.
Go shoot guns right right youknow all of the things that you
know, I would do you put yourface in a pillow and scream you
(05:47):
know, or you know in the case ofmen yell right scream.
But um, when you're by yourself, though, it's super easy.
The problem with that honestlycomes in when you start adding
other people to the mix, ie aspouse, children or children.
Yeah, because now you're stillused to processing all of these
(06:10):
emotions through this oneprimary emotion, right?
Speaker 3 (06:15):
But then you have all these people that also have
emotions.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
So now you're talking about collateral damage, right,
yeah, you know, like, which iswhy you you know, even
throughout my life, like theIncredible Hulk has always been
my favorite comic book charactermm-hmm because I go I get him
right, you know, and, and really, when you look at the
intricacies of the IncredibleHulk, I think some things that
(06:39):
fly over people's heads are thehope doesn't necessarily want to
hurt anybody or anything hejust he's all this rage and and
just uncontrollable rage and andthrough that rage, there's
collateral damage, even if youlook at um, age of Ultron,
avengers, age of Ultron, so likewhen Scarlet Witch messes with
(07:03):
the Hulk and then he goes onthis rampage throughout.
Where was it?
South korea, or wherever youknow they were at the time?
Um, you know, and iron mancomes and gets the hulk buster
and they have this fight.
Yeah, there are innocent peoplethat are hurt and even when
hulk comes up, like you know,iron man knocks him through this
building, you know, drops thisbuilding on him and everything,
(07:26):
and, and, and Hulk gets back upand you can see him looking
around and he sees all theinnocent people he's hurting.
Right.
And this gives him the guilt ofgoing look at what my anger has
done, you know, and that, andthat is the conflict that Bruce
Banner has with the Hulk.
Right, right Because honestly,yeah, and honestly think about
it Like if you're thisindestructible, you know All
(07:49):
powerful, you know Hulkstrongest there is, why would
you want to ever revert back toBanner to begin with?
Right, right, you know, butit's that inner conflict of
Banner going.
I can't control this and thecollateral damage that you know
it's not that necessarily Hulkever went to hurt people, but in
(08:11):
his rage filled, you know,anger, anger.
He does right and I think thatis really the framework and what
we need to look at that through, because we're not talking
about abuse right all right ifyou were someone who was being
abused.
I'm telling like, my adviceright now is this leave yes I
(08:33):
know it's easier said than done.
I you know I was a cop for awhile, you know even in
counseling, I get it.
You know.
Normally the abuser is the onethat controls the money,
controls everything.
I get it.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
It's hard, I'm not saying it's easy, I'm not trying
to, but there are resourcesthat you know can help you Reach
out to someone If you have noone else to reach out, to reach
out to info at missioncentorg.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Whatever the case may be, we will walk with you and
help you through that.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
So for the rest of the podcast, understand I'm not
talking about an abusivesituation.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
I am talking about what I would say most people
deal with when it comes to thisright.
You've been processing throughyour emotions most of your life
in anger.
It is your go-to emotion, right, but now you're adding other
people into your life.
Okay, so for me, when I wassingle, and you know, when I was
single, so at 16, 17, you knowwe've been together a long time.
(09:32):
We have when I would get angry.
It was easy to go be by myselfand process through that.
Then you step into the pictureRight.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
And so bag of emotion .
So from 18 on.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Um, it wasn't always as easy to just go.
Just be gone, you know, that'snot healthy.
In a whole separate way, right,right, but you still have this
anger and you still have likethis is still how you process
through everything right so wewould go through situations you
know, and, and maybe you know,and, and maybe it would make me
feel anxious, maybe it wouldmake me, you know, fearful,
(10:08):
maybe it would make me sad, sad,or whatever the case may be.
You know, and again I'm I'mtalking about the negative
emotions, right, you know, notnecessarily happiness or joy, um
, but I would take it, turn itinto anger, but I would take it
turn it into anger, processthrough that anger that,
inadvertently, would make yousometimes, depending on the
(10:29):
argument or or whatever, thefocal point of that release for
that anger.
Right, and it may have been,you know, something, you had
nothing to do with, something,you had no control over,
something of that nature.
But now, because you are here,here, you're that collateral
(10:52):
damage, right, and it took, ittook me a while to to really get
down to that's what I'm doing,like I'm using you as a punching
bag again, not literally, notliterally, no um but just
emotionally, right, justemotionally, like you know, hey,
this or this or this is goingon.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
And this is what I feel on the inside.
But I think, looking at thewhole situation, is your goal is
never to use me as a punchingbag per se, but rather I I have
been that, I know it's anoverused word.
I have been that, and I knowit's an overused word.
(11:27):
I have been that safe placewhere you could let that out
without realizing oh crap, thisis causing some type of damage.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
I would never.
Does that make sense?
It does.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
I don't mean you ever looked and was like, oh, she'll
be fine, because you weren'teven thinking about the
collateral damage Cause you weretrying to work through what you
were going through and that andthat's what I was going to say,
and that's what I think I neverlooked at you and went oh,
you're a safe place?
No, not at all.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
I went.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
But emotionally I have been.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
But, and you have, but it was never you were a safe
place as much as it was.
You were just there, Right?
You know in all honesty, thewrong place, wrong time.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Kind of.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yeah, it wasn't that.
I looked at you and went oh,she can handle it, it was, you
just were there.
Right.
And so you know, I had a bad dayat work, Right.
Came home ticked off Internal,internally, you know traffic was
terrible on the way home it wasraining, didn't have air
conditioning in the truck.
Whatever the case may be, formany years still don't oh,
that's right, I forgot I didn'thave air conditioning until we
(12:32):
got married I never didn't haveair conditioning until we got
married but you know, then youcome home, you know, and it's
just like okay, now I have thischance to get this all out.
So I think we've set that uppretty good, all right.
So now I want to switch kind ofgears to you and go okay, so
you're on the opposite side ofthat one.
(12:56):
You know, obviously, how doesit make you feel to?
How do you walk through that?
How do you deal with that?
How do you cope with that?
Like, what does that do on yourflip side of that?
Speaker 3 (13:10):
so for internally, okay, wow, that's a happy
question.
Um, for me first it took awhile to realize what was
happening, because I didn't.
I would take it personal, umand go okay, he's coming after
me, he's attacking me, he's, youknow, going off on me.
So I had to realize that itwasn't me that you were going
(13:33):
after.
Essentially, you were trying toprocess through what you were
feeling and I had to stop takingpersonal offense to it, because
for years I did take personaloffense to it.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
It kind of shut me down a little where I was like
I'm not even gonna have thisconversation because but in that
conversation, because you know,these were oftentimes arguments
, it wasn't a daily thing soplease don't take it that way,
but no but they were oftenarguments and, and I would
notice, you would startescalating, which now would
(14:03):
cause me to escalate, and thenwe've lost focus of what the
whole Right.
And now we're not even talkingabout no what was actually being
discussed.
We're now getting to a pointwhere it's like hurt people,
hurt people, right.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
And what I, what for me like.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Just name calling and yeah, you know stuff like that
I mean Um.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
What I realized is that over time, whatever was
wrong never got talked aboutbecause again it escalated and
then turned into something youknow, when we were dating for
two months, blah blah, whatever,and you know we're five, six
years in our marriage, um, so itnever really got solved.
Whatever was wrong?
Um, and then I know for me,like I internalized a lot and at
certain points I I like it shutme down towards you where I was
(14:51):
just like I'm not even gonnatalk to him about certain things
.
Does that make sense?
yeah, um so I was like for me itwas just easier, just to, I'll
deal with it, I'll figure it outon my own which can cause um
division in a marriage, whichwas never your point.
And I think had you evenconnected that dot at that time,
(15:13):
it might have I don't know,maybe at the time you wouldn't
have because, whatever, it was adifferent time.
But I think for me, as like therecipient, it just.
But I think for me, as like therecipient, it just, like I
didn't, I didn't feel like Icould trust you, but not in a
(15:35):
not in a.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
he's lying, Not in dishonest kind of way.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
I just didn't feel.
I hate the word safe but, um, Ididn't feel good having certain
conversations with you, right?
So I would just let thingsbuild up and fester inside me
and then which would createother problems.
Right, because it became like apoison.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
And then I would just Well then, you're bitter and
angry towards me.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
I'm bitter and angry towards you and then something
small would happen, and thenthat would be my open
opportunity to pour out theanger that I had because of your
anger which would in turn againit would just turn into another
right argument that neverreally had nothing got solved.
And for me as a wife you know,as a christian wife um, it took
(16:22):
me a while to realize I neededto be going to Jesus and not
going off on you about stuff.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
All right, but what's that mean?
Go to Jesus, because we, asChristians, we use that term a
lot.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
We like saying that.
So going to Jesus, take it tothe foot of the cross.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Cling to Jesus, and you should be but cling to Jesus
is Right, but let's put someFlesh on it.
Let's put some flesh on it.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Nope, nope, nope I put some reality to it.
Yes, In practical terms.
Practical terms was.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
RIP Probably Christian.
I just saw the logo for it.
Yesterday too.
I was like we should switchback.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
I was like no uh, remembering that, Um, and
honestly it's funny because alot of what I use I actually got
from you, you know, learningfrom you from scripture, um, you
know, even though you wereangry, I'd remember be angry and
sin, not um effusions war whichis hard for me, because I
(17:15):
wanted to be angry and throwstuff and cuss you out and yell
at you and we're gonna get to.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
We're gonna get to what the gospel bears down on
that in a second.
Right now I just kind of wantto like before we get to that
point okay I just kind of wantto look at it as people, right,
as people.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
I had to realize that you weren't.
It wasn't a personal attack onme, it was more so.
It was a you thing, not a mething, and I didn't need to add
to that.
So when I would find myselfgetting frustrated and going I
really like I'm on, like I'll bejust transparent going I'm so
freaking sick and tired I wasn'tgonna say anything bad so sick
(17:50):
and tired of listening to this.
Right now I would just stilllisten to it because I knew it
had to.
You had to get it out, okay,and and I.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
I understand that, but like what do you think
marriage wise?
Um, what was it doing to you asa wife?
Speaker 3 (18:10):
it made me feel isolated as far as our marriage
went um, it made me I justdidn't feel like I was in, like
there was like not a dualitythere, it was just it was you
and then there was me.
But there, um, it made me feelless of an us and I didn't feel
connected to you, like I couldjust completely come to you and
(18:34):
pour my heart out, like I didn't.
I was like I that's, I can't dothat right because I would look
at you and go.
He's got way too much going onand he can't even though he's
supposed to, he can't carry theburden with me Cause he's got
his own crap to deal with, whichit just, it just I didn't look,
(18:57):
I didn't look at you.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
That's gonna make me cry as someone who could care
for and nurture and protect yourheart and and all of that.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
And you just become this beast, Just like Hulk right
.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Yes, um, and it made me go.
I have to carry all this insideby myself which, again touching
on the gospel, like it did,make me go to Jesus more.
I'm air quoting, you can't see,but yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
And, and, yeah, and.
When I said the gospel like, Ididn't mean like you're not
allowed to talk about it like.
Obviously you know, becausethat's going to be the question
at this point in everyone's mind.
I'm sure you know someonelistening right now is sitting
here going.
I'm in that situation, whetherthey're, you know, coming from
my perspective or yours.
(20:05):
Right.
But they're sitting here goinghow, how do you move past that
situation?
And so, who do you want to gofirst?
Do you want me to go first, andand how I wound up moving past
it, or you, you?
Speaker 3 (20:22):
you go first all right.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
So for for me and again this is something like one
I want to say this disclaimer Idon't think you ever move past
no right, I I think you learn tocope.
I think you learn to cope.
I think you learn um differentstrategies.
I think you learn you know toto identify different triggers
and things like that, but Idon't think it's something you
(20:43):
ever like.
Oh, I don't deal with thatanymore.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Um, right, right, yeah, cause I think some people,
it's something you grow in,it's something you mature in.
You learn how to work through?
Yes, you learn how to workthrough you.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Yes, you learn how to work through, because anger is
still, to this day, my go-toprimary emotion, correct um, and
it is still that emotion that Ican process all of the other
negative emotions through.
I just can do it in a morehealthy way, right um you know
through learning how to but forme it was you know, and I
learning how to.
But for me it was you know, andI can even go back to that same
(21:17):
night.
You know, I just got off ofwork, started drinking.
I don't know a couple of hourshad went by and I was on the
cell phone and I say cell phonelike that because it was when
they first came out.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
It was a cellular device.
It was not an iPhone.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
This is almost 20 years ago, so you know a little
bit past the bag, the phone in abag, but not quite to an iPhone
.
And we were talking and Iremember, like you know, on the
phone I was like I hate you andI hate my life and I hate, and I
(22:00):
hate my life and I hate, and,and in that moment I noticed.
It wasn't you I was angry at.
It was me, first of all, um,and, and looking at all the
mistakes that had made, you know, led me to the place and
position I was in right and andin, in, honestly in, in a God
given moment of clarity the nextday, you know cause.
You were like hey, like thiswas your one oops, and yeah, and
(22:22):
there was.
There was a lot of other thingsthat transpired that night that
you know.
I didn't wind up coming backhome, you know, until like five
the next morning.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
We both left Right, you didn't come home.
Right, you didn't come home.
I left, yeah, I'm just sayinglike obviously it wasn't just
this one you know conversation.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Right.
But the next morning, you know,I was sitting out by the pool
and you came out carrying JT,who was a very, very little baby
at the time, little baby.
And you were like, hey, thiswas your one, oops.
And this was like even beforeyou could really get anything
out.
I was like, look, I'm sorry andfor those of you listening that
(22:58):
you're like, who cares about asorry, what you have to
understand is.
I do not apologize like thewords.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
I'm sorry oh, that sounds arrogant.
It's not that you don't.
It's not that you're not sorryabout stuff.
No, no, no, no.
You just don't use the words.
I don't apologize so for.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Debbie to hear me go.
I'm sorry, it wasn't that.
No, it's not a prideful I never, I'm never wrong.
Right.
Like.
No, I just don't believe in thewords.
I'm sorry.
Like that.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
That's a changed behavior, right you?
Speaker 1 (23:24):
know, and if you're truly sorry, you just won't do
it again, correct and and thatkind of that that broke my heart
in a way, know, realizing allof that and looking at you and
going, look, I'm sorry, like Idon't even have an excuse for it
, like it just, you know I, Ihad a god-given moment of
clarity of going it's me,there's something broken in me
(23:47):
which led me to be able to, atthat point, see scripture that
I'd already known right, it waswritten in your heart but see it
in a way I'd never seen itbefore, like um Ephesians 5,
when Paul goes you know husbands, um, you know wives, submit to
(24:07):
your husbands like duh.
I've said that since ourmarriage right, so so what?
And um but then it it led me tothe next verse, where he's
sitting here going husbands,love your wife, as Christ loved
the church and gave his life upfor her.
Right.
And and it made me look at Jesusin a different way and go like
(24:28):
Jesus knew what I was going tobe in, knew the person I was
going to be, and still chose tolay his life down for me.
And I went and now he's callingme to do the same thing for you
.
And and that was hard for me Um, not that I've never.
I mean, I've always been theone that worked and provided and
(24:49):
took care of and did thehusband things right, you know,
fix things at the house and mowthe lawn, protect.
You know that I've alwaysfilled that role.
But now it was like looking atyou differently and going.
But Jesus calls you to lay downeverything you are right not
just do the the husbandly thingsright um, but to lay down
(25:09):
everything you are and thatincludes you right, like that
includes myself, and that's whenI went um.
I gotta get a handle on thislike this.
Can't keep progressing the waythat it's going um, because what
I'm doing to her is putting aweight on her um that she could
(25:31):
not carry um, because I'm tryingto take all of the things
inside of me that are broken andwrong and lay it on her and go
hey, you need to carry this.
And.
I go.
What kind of husband does that?
Now, before anyone gets anyideas like so, there's a couple
of things I want to talk aboutwith that.
(25:51):
Number one is this Could youhave come to me at any point and
told me any of that?
Speaker 3 (25:58):
could I've told you those words yeah, sure, would
they have mattered?
Speaker 1 (26:02):
no, not at all.
All right, so even if you cameto me and been like, hey, we
need to talk about this, you'reputting a weight on me, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, itwouldn't have necessarily
mattered, right, right, I meanI'm sure I would have heard the
words you were saying, and andand all of that.
Number two, again going back toI hate that saying just, you
(26:22):
know, just give it to Jesus,because that is a very Christian
thing to say.
That really has no practicalityin it.
Right.
It's sitting here going Jesusforgave me for this.
Okay, I have that forgivenessand and there's nothing I can do
to earn that forgiveness, butrepentance is a turning away
(26:46):
from that right and and sittinghere going, it's okay to be
angry like you.
You had quoted ephesians 4earlier where paul to be angry
Like you.
You had quoted Ephesians fourearlier, where Paul goes be
angry and sin not Like Jesus gotangry, God gets angry.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Like there's righteous anger.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
You read through the prophets and you see God has
turned his face from Israel.
Being angry is not the problem.
It's what you do with that anger, and, and that's where I went.
Things had to change correct,and and that's where I went.
Things had to change because,for me, what I would do with
that anger was go, I don't wantto deal with life, I just want
(27:23):
to have some drinks, act likenone of this ever happened, get
angry and then whatever is in mypath, is collateral damage
correct?
Whatever is in my path, iscollateral damage Correct?
Where I went, first andforemost, I need to fix the
things that I'm so angry about.
Right, like hey, I chose to giveaway scholarships to go to
(27:48):
college, and you know all ofthat, and I'm not saying college
is for everyone, but it wasdefinitely for me, correct, and
and so I had to go back.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Um, I knew I was in the position I was in in life
because of the choices, becauseof the choices I made, so I had
to make different choices see,but I think that's a lot of
things could be fixed in withpeople if they were to look in
the mirror and go oh, I did thatright.
Oh, this is my fault.
I should have made personalaccountability and
responsibility is huge right andif, if that happened more often
(28:18):
, not just with men, I mean withwomen too going I like I did
this that you would you therewould be much more growth, much
faster yesterday in bible.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
That was one of the things during bible class that I
was talking to the kids aboutum, where you know we were.
We were talking through why didGod create me?
Well, I mean simply put Godcreated you out of an overflow
of love and, and then sin camein and corrupted and, and so we
went down that, that path, andthen we were talking about um.
(28:47):
We were talking about um, the,the, the book, that, our Bible
book.
It was zephaniah 3 and it picksup in like verse 16 and it was
talking about you know how godhas not forsaken and will come
and restore.
And I was like, okay, and I getthat and, as christians, a lot
(29:10):
of time, that those are theverses we cling to right.
Jeremiah 29, 11 for I know theplans that I have for you
declares the lord plans toprosper you and not to harm you
right you know psalm 23, youknow we look at these and we go
god is for us and he is just notin the way we think he is.
He's for us, for himself, forhis glory.
Right, god is going to restoreand redeem, because that is who
(29:33):
god is, um.
So he's going to take brokencreation and and's going to go.
I'm going to redeem this for myglory.
But we have the tendency tolook at those verses and go oh
so this is bad, it must be fromthe devil.
And so what I was telling thekids was yeah, Jesus in John 15
(29:59):
says in this world, or 16, mightbe 16.
Anyway, it's one of the two Inthis world.
You will have trouble, but takeheart, I have overcome the
world.
Right, Right, You're going tohave trouble.
Things are going to go wrong.
Some of it is going to be outof the realm of your possibility
.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Things are going to go wrong.
Some of it is going to be outof the realm of your possibility
.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Our girls were born.
You know, we had a two and ahalf year old, two years old,
two year old.
And then we had twin girls bornand we were homeless Because
the housing market hit.
We both lost our jobs.
Very good jobs Ran through allof our money trying to, you know
, hold on to our house andeverything that.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Unemployment didn't pay much Didn't happen, oh,
eight, you know, and nobodywould hire us.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
To 2012 were bad years for a lot of people.
Oh yeah, we couldn't have seenthat coming.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
No.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
But then I was trying to get the kids to understand.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
But most of the time your life is the way it is
because of the choices that youmade.
Because of your choices.
I didn't know you talked aboutthat and literally had that
conversation in my bible classtoday so it was me coming to
that realization.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
When it came to anger , it was sitting here and going.
My life is where it is becauseof me, right, because the
choices I had made, um, forwhatever reason, and and I could
sit here, and that's hard toswallow sometimes.
And I can stomp my feet and Ican be angry, or I could be a
man and actually do things aboutit Right and actually go.
(31:26):
Hey, you know what, let me putin the work.
And yeah, it's twice as hard todo it right the second time,
correct, but it can still bedone.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
And it was done.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
And so for me it was.
It was realizing all that andthen putting in the work to
actually change that right tosit here and go.
Okay, when I get angry, oneidentify what am I angry at
right right and, and you know to, to sit here and go.
Ok, I need to focus the energy.
(31:55):
That would turn into anargument or, you know, would
turn into me just stomping andpouting, you know pouting and go
.
Ok, no like, let me use thatenergy to fix to fix that Mm hmm
.
Let me focus on that.
But I'm telling you, becausewe've had those conversations
(32:16):
right Before all of this, likewe had those conversations and
they didn't go well, so so I'mnot saying all of this to sit
here and go hey, you need to sitdown with your spouse and go.
Hey, you need to cause.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
I'm telling you that is not going to work out the way
you think it is.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
However, share the podcast with them.
Let them hear someone else tellthem hey, sometimes the problem
is you, Sometimes it is yourfault.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
And that doesn't mean you have to live there with it.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
And that's just what I was going to say and
understand.
That's not the end of the road.
You can rectify as long as youhave breath in your lungs.
We are given the ministry ofreconciliation.
Yes, first, corinthians nine Ibelieve you like.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
That is the ministry that we are given although when
the kids did say mr lively knowsall the bible verses, I do not.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
He knows a lot of them um, you know, and that
reconciliation goes not just forothers but for yourself too,
and so for me it was hitting allof that, and it was seeing
Jesus in that light.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Because you did have to forgive yourself for mistakes
you made.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
I did, and it's still something I struggle with.
Sure you, know, I have a wholelifetime.
Well, not a whole lifetime, butI mean everyone does at least
18 years of bad decisions butWell, not a whole lifetime, but
I mean everyone does At least 18years of bad decisions, of
mistakes.
But on the same hand I go.
You know, yes, all of us havethings in our past.
That was the hardest thing forme with cancel culture, and I
(33:47):
know this has nothing to do withwhat we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
But You're not even giving people an opportunity for
redemption.
It's not even that.
It's who are you to?
Not it's?
Not even that it's who are youto stand up?
You don't have anything in yourpast.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Right there's you're, uh, you're sitting here
attacking people and I go youhave your own mess right, and we
all do, yes, you know and, and,and we all have stories and we
all have that, but anyway, so sothat's where it got me, okay,
and so to give it to Christ forme meant I need to be like
Christ, like.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
I need to Serving sacrificial yes.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
I need to look at my marriage the way that Christ
commands me to look at mymarriage.
Right.
I need to look at this and go.
Jesus tells me to layeverything I am down for her,
and that includes myself, and soI would.
And I would go hey, look like,yeah, I'm angry, yeah, I had a
bad day, yeah, this went wrongor that went wrong or whatever
(34:47):
the case may be, but it wasn'tDebbie who did it.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
And those are things that you started to say out loud
.
I'm mad right now.
You know I got a lot on my mind, but it's not you, so that
would give me kind of a whew.
Okay, so I would.
That tension would drop.
Right.
And even though I was stillconcerned because you're
frustrated and of course I don'twant you to be angry I would
(35:13):
have some freedom going.
Okay, this doesn't mean thatit's going to turn into an
argument or a fight, because hejust said it's not me, right?
Um, you know there's nothingbetween us that's wrong.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
He's working through something right now so what gave
you the ability to go, hey, I'mgonna weather this storm and
hey, I'm going to?
Speaker 3 (35:33):
weather, this storm and stay.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Like I'm going to stay, I'm going to see where
this turns out, Like why, howdid you handle that on your side
?
Because I know there was a lotof prayer.
I know, I know Like you wouldliterally like lay hands and
pray on me at night.
I did when you thought I wassleeping, and all of that on me
(35:56):
at night when you thought I wassleeping, and all of that.
But what was it going?
Speaker 3 (36:04):
through your mind going, hey, like this is going
to change.
Well, a couple things.
I didn't 100% know it was goingto change, but I did know that.
I mean, I love you deeply andyou know your bouts of anger
(36:24):
weren't all the time and I knewyou'd never hurt me.
You know you'd never hurt thekids, but I knew we all have our
thing.
Your thing just happened to bestruggling with anger.
Um, mine is an emotional rollercoaster, so I mean we get to
that in a different podcast umyour thing and I and I knew you
(36:47):
didn't want to be like that likeagain never abusive, you'd
never hurt me, you'd never layhands on me.
Was that you?
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Was that you?
I was trying to look at youlike Tom, but I just took that
sip of water.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
That's the water.
I heard I lost focus, but Iknew you were singing my praises
.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
I would never hurt you, was I genuinely, even in my
lowest, still amazing husbandyes, I genuinely believed that
God was going to restore you um.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
I prayed for that.
I genuinely believe that youknow God was moving.
I knew God had called you toother things, um, and I might
get a little spiritual for asecond, but I know when God's
called you to other things.
Um, and I might get a littlespiritual for a second, but I
know when god's called you toshh, when god calls you to
something.
When god calls you to something, you're going to have attacks
(37:51):
from the enemy.
You are and, and to me,sometimes I would look at it as
an attack from the enemy,because that time that we would
spend arguing and we'd be spent,we'd spend, you know, engulfed
in this, you know, battle.
That's time that we were takingaway from the things that god
(38:12):
called us to do the kids, thekids, the kids ministry,
whatever, even just spendingquality time together, because
then what would happen for me?
I would be so frustrated, Ididn't want to spend quality
time with you, I didn't want tohang out with you, I didn't want
to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Which is hard, because not only are we husband
and wife, we are genuinely bestfriends Literally, we love
spending time together and evenwhen I'm mad, like Josh, is the
one I want to talk to.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
So to be so upset that I was like I don't want to
talk to him right now, like wewould sit down watch movie.
I just didn't want to be around.
I didn't want to go anywhereelse, but I just didn't want to
be there, right.
So it caused an emotionaldivision for me because I just
didn't see him as that person Icould lean on anymore, him, you.
(39:01):
I like I'm talking to people Imean I am so to me.
You have to.
I knew I had to be aware that,okay, this isn't just a bout of
anger from Josh.
I have to be aware that theenemy is seeking to kill, steal
and destroy my marriage, myhusband, my family, ministry,
everything God called us topeace, tranquility.
(39:22):
So I had to.
There were times I had to keepmyself in check and go.
I can't join in because one Iknow it's not me Sometimes.
I mean, sometimes it was me,it's not me, and I know it's not
always going to be like this.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Well, and one of the things I can appreciate looking
back on it now, um, and itwasn't like this early in our
marriage.
Like early in our marriage, itwas definitely like you want to
go tit for tat on everything, Um, and then it wound up being way
worse than it ever should havebeen, Um.
But especially after, you know,after this whole period, um,
(40:05):
you were very grace filled a lotof the time and and going as I
was trying to learn those newskills of processing and and
being able to go okay, hold on,let me identify what I'm angry
at, Um, and then let me, youknow, brainstorm ways that I can
deal with that in a healthy way.
Um, you were very grace, filledin the fact that it was all
(40:29):
right, let's try it.
You know, and, and you knew atthat point that sometimes, as a
helpmate, you know, you knew,okay, sometimes I need to say
something, something, sometimesI just need to not just be quiet
and listen just he'll, he'llkind of like he'll kind of burn
himself out.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
You would.
You would go on and on and on,and you weren't really looking
for feedback, you weren't evenlooking for a conversation you
were just trying to getsomething out and you were kind
of having a conversation withyourself right I just happened
to be there.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
And since I am the smartest person I know, oh boy.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
So full of humility, Um, you would, you'd be working
it out.
And then, before I realized it,I mean, there were times I
would try to constantlyinterject, but then, once I
learned you a little more andwent, oh okay, this is just how
he's processing.
I just need to step back and go.
Did you want me like, are youlooking for advice?
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Well, and I still do that, but I mean, I've done that
almost the entire time.
We've been together whereyou'll start going into
something I'll be like hold on,is this a?
You're looking for feedback ordo you just need to get this out
?
Speaker 3 (41:36):
And that is something I learned from you and I'm
thankful for that, because itgave I think it gives us the
opportunity to go.
Are we listening to respond?
Are we listening just to be?
Speaker 1 (41:46):
well, you should always seek first to understand
seven habits of highly effectivepeople.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
Um, that was part of being proactive.
I'm trying to.
You know it's just in thereletting you work things out, and
then there are some times whereI would be like, well, hang on,
hang on.
Have you looked at it from thisperspective?
Speaker 1 (42:04):
but, and you have to, you have to know but I didn't.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
I had to, I had to really like for me, I go, and I
think a lot of women strugglewith it.
We want to like, we get toocaught up emotionally and it's
like men aren't as emotional aswe are in the same or in the
same way.
We are Right, so sometimes wejust have to go.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
There is a difference between men and women.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
Yes, you have to go For me.
I was like OK, I mean, I gotreally good at going, OK, All
right.
You know, I did learn that fromyou too.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Well, no, and like you were just saying, though,
that I mean you have to knowyour spouse, your partner, your
kids good, enough, because Imean all of this applies to
every relationship.
Yeah, like this could.
Speaker 3 (42:46):
We could just as easily be talking about a
friendship we have three kidsand we deal with each one of
them overall overarching.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
We are how we are as parents, but we deal with each
one of them individually right,because they're not the same
right and and you have to knowthat because, yeah, like you
just said, there are times whereI'm going to talk something out
out loud.
You know, I'm a verbalprocessor.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
Sometimes to exhaustion where it's like okay.
Enough All right and for me,like even taking it back to you
know, I clung to the feet ofJesus.
I literally my prayer was God,help me see him the way you see
him, because how I'm seeing himright now is not very good.
Right, and so my prayer wasthat God changed my heart,
(43:32):
changed my viewpoint, and helpme see you for the child that he
created you to be.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Well, and the brokenness.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
And that's what I mean, and that's what I meant,
yeah because I needed to be ableto see you and I only knew that
because these are conversationswe've had right I needed to see
that in you, because there wasa time that I didn't see you as
broken, I didn't see you asneeding any help or anything, so
that was overwhelming.
So to be able to see you as areal person, with real flaws and
(44:05):
struggles yeah yeah.
I went oh my gosh, it gave mesuch a.
It softened my heart to you ina way that it hadn't been for a
long time, because my heart hadbeen hardened towards you right,
um, and that was hard for me.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
And I'll tell you, like JT, if I really want to get
JT to do something, you knowschoolwork if I really want them
to get a schoolwork done.
I just got to make them angrybecause we've instilled luckily,
you know as parents knowingthese tips and and, and knowing
(44:44):
parents, knowing these tips andand and knowing not tips really,
but tools.
I guess you could saystrategies and going, hey, like,
here's how you like, and Iagain, I hate to keep bringing
up the incredible hole, but likein 2008's incredible hulk with
edward norton, not mark ruffalo,we watch a lot of movies at the
end of the movie okay, and thiswas 2008.
So if if you're like, oh, youspoiled the movie shame on you.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
Shame on you.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
You should have watched it at the end of the
movie, you know, he's like hehas to go fight abomination and
and they're like, well, he'slike I need to go.
It has to be me, you know.
And they're like, well, can youcontrol it?
And he's like, no, but maybe ifI could aim it and I go.
And that's what anger did forme.
(45:27):
Right.
I will tell you right now angeris not always the bad thing,
like, in fact, in the bookFighting Shadows in fact tonight
like during the men's bookstudy.
We're we're going to be goingover this a little bit over
ambition, and and one of thethings it talks about is you
have to turn, you have to befrustrated enough to change
(45:51):
Right.
You like I and this issomething we talk about a lot
like until you hate somethingenough, you won't change it.
Correct Right, like you couldbe like oh, I need to lose
weight, I need to lose weight, Ineed to lose weight.
For me, it was like when I hita certain pant size, I went nope
, not having that.
Nope, nope, nope.
That is a true story.
Like we are exercising.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
We are dieting Like we are doing this, the whole
family is doing it.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
And where you have to , you have to get angry enough
to go.
I'm going to change this.
Speaker 3 (46:21):
Because if you sit with your anger and you don't do
anything about it, it's goingto eat you alive.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Right, but it can also be a huge driving force
behind.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
That's what I'm saying it needs to be a driving
force.
Speaker 1 (46:31):
And that catalyst and change yeah.
Speaker 3 (46:32):
Because, I mean anger got you to finish the
bachelor's and master's in ayear and a half.
It got you to change yourcareer.
I mean it really sparked thebeginning of a lot of great
things.
Because you were so angry athow it was, you were like no,
it's gotta be another way.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Right, and that's where I went.
So coming on the other side ofthat and being able to walk
through all of that and see allof that and go, oh wow, this can
be something that you can usefor good, right, yeah.
And go, oh wow, this can besomething that you can use for
good, right, yeah, like that'ssomething we we've really tried
to instill in jt and our son.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
Yeah, you have to hate this enough to do something
.
Speaker 1 (47:08):
The girls- too, but like in a different way, like
you just said, the girls don'trespond like that like jt does
right.
You know, and most guys do, andwhen you get angry enough about
something, you will change itright, like, and so it's sitting
here going like.
For me, even going back to whatwe were talking about, it was
when I got angry enough atmyself, right, and I went on the
(47:29):
problem, and that's when Ineeded to change.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
And that takes a lot of maturity and growth and
that's big to go.
Oh, it's me.
Okay, this is my fault.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
So laying it at the cross laying it at.
Jesus's feet for me was sittinghere and going.
I need to repent, like I.
I need to work on this.
Speaker 3 (47:47):
Like I need to fix it , and you came to me and said
that.
I mean you came to me and wetalked about it.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
I mean I say talked about it Like at first I had to
get there first.
Yeah, first I had to go toJesus Right and then and then
through that was able to go okaynow.
Speaker 3 (48:04):
I'm not going to go to Debbie.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
Right.
Speaker 3 (48:05):
And I mean for me as a wife.
I'm not talking about likepraying, like a like.
I prayed incessantly over it.
Right, um, almost to the pointwhere it was like okay yeah,
okay, yeah, or you're making meangry with your prayers, like,
um, you know I talked to.
(48:26):
I mean, I had women in my lifethat were, you know, great
examples and and I was able andyou had women in your life who
were like, hey, it's time to goI did have one in my life that
were different podcasts.
We can get into a wholedifferent conversation, um, but
yeah, I did have, so be carefulwho you listen to.
Um, I don't talk to those womenanymore, but yeah, I had women
in my life, older women that had, you know, weathered storms and
(48:48):
had been married for a longtime.
That really poured into me, um,and I look back now and it
might make me cry again.
Um, I'm like literally forevergrateful and thankful.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
I mean, they prayed with me, they prayed for me,
they prayed for you, they prayedfor the kids yeah, I know, and
then when I would show up atchurch irregularly at the time
right and then, like theseladies, these older ladies,
would come up to me and be likeyou're josh right we've been
praying for you like we werepraying for you and then it's
like why are you praying for me?
Speaker 3 (49:22):
like um, but I also, I also pray that god show me the
areas in my life that I neededto change, because I couldn't
have just looked at you and beenlike, oh he's the problem, even
in situations where you werethe problem, but that's why
jesus says that right, how areyou gonna take the log out?
Speaker 1 (49:39):
or how are you going to take the speck out of your
neighbor's eye?
Speaker 3 (49:42):
I had to look.
You know, there's hard workthat we as wives we have to do,
or whatever husbands, whoever ison either side to go.
What part did I play and howcan I be better and what can I
do to help that other person?
Speaker 1 (49:57):
Amen.
So I hope you liked the how-toseries.
Like I said, this was just thefirst one.
We're going to experiment withsome other ones.
Oh boy, if you like it, youknow, let us know.
Yep, let us know in thecomments of wherever you see
this.
You could always reach out atinfo at missionscentorg, or, if
you are one of the people thathave our phone, give us a call
(50:21):
are one of the people that haveour phone.
Give us a call, texas.
Other than that, we thank you,we love you.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
We can't do this out without you, and we'll see you
next time.
Bye guys.
Hey, it is Josh and on this episode, man, we're
really going to open up somehard stuff and really jump into
anger how to deal with, how toprocess, how to deal with a
spouse who is angry all the time, and some of the tips, tools
and things that you can get intothat.
So buckle up, let's strengthenthe family through faith and
(00:42):
fishing.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
One podcast at a time , one fishing trip at a time.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I'm going to start a little different.
If you find this helpful, do usa favor and just share.
Share it with someone you know.
Go, hey, here's a podcastdesigned to help the family.
You can also follow us onsocial media subscribe, do all
the things.
You know what to do.
We live in 2025, people Allright.
(01:12):
So you asked what we're doingon this episode.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Because I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Because you never have any idea, because I don't
tell you.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
You love surprising me.
I do Not in a good way.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Well, and I like hearing your general react not
general, genuine, genuine, yeahreaction.
Um, this one's actually goingto be kind of a I want to start
this kind of series on how tookay, okay, so, so some how to
um marriage and family and andthings like that.
(01:45):
Why, why are you staring at melike that?
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I'm trying to see how it's the mic.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
It's not you, it's me it's you 90 percent of the time
is you, it's true, but this oneum by far going to be the
easiest.
Lowest hanging fruit.
You should have quite a bit umto say in this one is how to
deal with an angry spouse isthis a trick podcast?
(02:17):
why, nothing, keep going no,it's not a trick podcast.
I just I know like when youlook out, you see a lot of
anxiety, you see a lot ofdivision, you see a lot of anger
in people.
Um, you know, and for some,honestly, it just it seems like
(02:40):
the new normal um yes and and Iwent.
You know this is an area notonly do you have the educational
background in, but you alsohave the practical background in
, in dealing with me, because,for those of you that may not
(03:00):
know me and anger, we're friendslike like.
Uh, it's been a journey to getto where I am now.
Um, you've come a long waybecause I mean I and let's get
something out of the way rightnow.
Okay, I don't mind using myselffor examples.
(03:22):
I don't want people to think itwas worse than what it is Like.
I've never been like so angryand out of control or anything
Never never, been anything likethat.
But anger is my go-to emotionand it's the emotion I filter
all other things through,because anger is easy for me to
process.
Anger is in most guys.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Anger makes sense to you Right.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Um well, it's easy to get out.
Right, yeah, that's true, it'sa super easy emotion to get out.
You know you can do a real bigworkout.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
You can punch a wall.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Punch a wall.
You can, you know.
Listen to anger music Rightthere's a lot of easy ways to
get anger out, so I think itjust became easy for me
throughout life to cling to it.
Turn everything into anger.
You know sadness and and youknow low points, like you know
anxiety.
All of all of the negativeemotion you know.
(04:14):
Turn it into anger and thendeal with the anger, because
anger is easy to deal with.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
It's like the bag you would stuff it in and go.
Now I'm going to take care ofthis bag.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Right, and so I learned how to do that.
You know at a younger age.
You know through tempertantrums and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Do you even think because you were bullied as a
kid?
Do you think some of thathappened at that point where,
like you would, you were sad andthen it would cause you to get
angry.
And then you, because I know,even when you got older, when
you know, your face startedclearing up and then you started
getting all the muscles all themuscles and then all the people
that made fun of you were likeoh hey, josh, like did was.
(04:52):
Was there anger there?
um yeah, like does that makesense?
My question makes sense it does.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Um, and, and yeah, of course there was anger there,
there was hurt, there wasrejection, there was fear, there
was anxiety, there wasdepression.
I mean there was all thosethings.
Um, and, like I said, for mepersonally it was just hey, turn
it into anger and then dealwith the anger, right, which is
it's super easy.
And when you're by yourself, um, you know when, when you're not
(05:23):
in the confines of arelationship, right, it's super,
super easy to deal with anger.
Um, like I said, I can go on arun, you know.
I can go do a real heavyworkout.
I could go um, you know, doyard work or you know anything
of that nature.
Go shoot guns right right youknow all of the things that you
know, I would do you put yourface in a pillow and scream you
(05:47):
know, or you know in the case ofmen yell right scream.
But um, when you're by yourself, though, it's super easy.
The problem with that honestlycomes in when you start adding
other people to the mix, ie aspouse, children or children.
Yeah, because now you're stillused to processing all of these
(06:10):
emotions through this oneprimary emotion, right?
Speaker 3 (06:15):
But then you have all these people that also have
emotions.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
So now you're talking about collateral damage, right,
yeah, you know, like, which iswhy you you know, even
throughout my life, like theIncredible Hulk has always been
my favorite comic book charactermm-hmm because I go I get him
right, you know, and, and really, when you look at the
intricacies of the IncredibleHulk, I think some things that
(06:39):
fly over people's heads are thehope doesn't necessarily want to
hurt anybody or anything hejust he's all this rage and and
just uncontrollable rage and andthrough that rage, there's
collateral damage, even if youlook at um, age of Ultron,
avengers, age of Ultron, so likewhen Scarlet Witch messes with
(07:03):
the Hulk and then he goes onthis rampage throughout.
Where was it?
South korea, or wherever youknow they were at the time?
Um, you know, and iron mancomes and gets the hulk buster
and they have this fight.
Yeah, there are innocent peoplethat are hurt and even when
hulk comes up, like you know,iron man knocks him through this
building, you know, drops thisbuilding on him and everything,
(07:26):
and, and, and Hulk gets back upand you can see him looking
around and he sees all theinnocent people he's hurting.
Right.
And this gives him the guilt ofgoing look at what my anger has
done, you know, and that, andthat is the conflict that Bruce
Banner has with the Hulk.
Right, right Because honestly,yeah, and honestly think about
it Like if you're thisindestructible, you know All
(07:49):
powerful, you know Hulkstrongest there is, why would
you want to ever revert back toBanner to begin with?
Right, right, you know, butit's that inner conflict of
Banner going.
I can't control this and thecollateral damage that you know
it's not that necessarily Hulkever went to hurt people, but in
(08:11):
his rage filled, you know,anger, anger.
He does right and I think thatis really the framework and what
we need to look at that through, because we're not talking
about abuse right all right ifyou were someone who was being
abused.
I'm telling like, my adviceright now is this leave yes I
(08:33):
know it's easier said than done.
I you know I was a cop for awhile, you know even in
counseling, I get it.
You know.
Normally the abuser is the onethat controls the money,
controls everything.
I get it.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
It's hard, I'm not saying it's easy, I'm not trying
to, but there are resourcesthat you know can help you Reach
out to someone If you have noone else to reach out, to reach
out to info at missioncentorg.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Whatever the case may be, we will walk with you and
help you through that.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
So for the rest of the podcast, understand I'm not
talking about an abusivesituation.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
I am talking about what I would say most people
deal with when it comes to thisright.
You've been processing throughyour emotions most of your life
in anger.
It is your go-to emotion, right, but now you're adding other
people into your life.
Okay, so for me, when I wassingle, and you know, when I was
single, so at 16, 17, you knowwe've been together a long time.
(09:32):
We have when I would get angry.
It was easy to go be by myselfand process through that.
Then you step into the pictureRight.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
And so bag of emotion .
So from 18 on.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Um, it wasn't always as easy to just go.
Just be gone, you know, that'snot healthy.
In a whole separate way, right,right, but you still have this
anger and you still have likethis is still how you process
through everything right so wewould go through situations you
know, and, and maybe you know,and, and maybe it would make me
feel anxious, maybe it wouldmake me, you know, fearful,
(10:08):
maybe it would make me sad, sad,or whatever the case may be.
You know, and again I'm I'mtalking about the negative
emotions, right, you know, notnecessarily happiness or joy, um
, but I would take it, turn itinto anger, but I would take it
turn it into anger, processthrough that anger that,
inadvertently, would make yousometimes, depending on the
(10:29):
argument or or whatever, thefocal point of that release for
that anger.
Right, and it may have been,you know, something, you had
nothing to do with, something,you had no control over,
something of that nature.
But now, because you are here,here, you're that collateral
(10:52):
damage, right, and it took, ittook me a while to to really get
down to that's what I'm doing,like I'm using you as a punching
bag again, not literally, notliterally, no um but just
emotionally, right, justemotionally, like you know, hey,
this or this or this is goingon.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
And this is what I feel on the inside.
But I think, looking at thewhole situation, is your goal is
never to use me as a punchingbag per se, but rather I I have
been that, I know it's anoverused word.
I have been that, and I knowit's an overused word.
(11:27):
I have been that safe placewhere you could let that out
without realizing oh crap, thisis causing some type of damage.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
I would never.
Does that make sense?
It does.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
I don't mean you ever looked and was like, oh, she'll
be fine, because you weren'teven thinking about the
collateral damage Cause you weretrying to work through what you
were going through and that andthat's what I was going to say,
and that's what I think I neverlooked at you and went oh,
you're a safe place?
No, not at all.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
I went.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
But emotionally I have been.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
But, and you have, but it was never you were a safe
place as much as it was.
You were just there, Right?
You know in all honesty, thewrong place, wrong time.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Kind of.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yeah, it wasn't that.
I looked at you and went oh,she can handle it, it was, you
just were there.
Right.
And so you know, I had a bad dayat work, Right.
Came home ticked off Internal,internally, you know traffic was
terrible on the way home it wasraining, didn't have air
conditioning in the truck.
Whatever the case may be, formany years still don't oh,
that's right, I forgot I didn'thave air conditioning until we
(12:32):
got married I never didn't haveair conditioning until we got
married but you know, then youcome home, you know, and it's
just like okay, now I have thischance to get this all out.
So I think we've set that uppretty good, all right.
So now I want to switch kind ofgears to you and go okay, so
you're on the opposite side ofthat one.
(12:56):
You know, obviously, how doesit make you feel to?
How do you walk through that?
How do you deal with that?
How do you cope with that?
Like, what does that do on yourflip side of that?
Speaker 3 (13:10):
so for internally, okay, wow, that's a happy
question.
Um, for me first it took awhile to realize what was
happening, because I didn't.
I would take it personal, umand go okay, he's coming after
me, he's attacking me, he's, youknow, going off on me.
So I had to realize that itwasn't me that you were going
(13:33):
after.
Essentially, you were trying toprocess through what you were
feeling and I had to stop takingpersonal offense to it, because
for years I did take personaloffense to it.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
It kind of shut me down a little where I was like
I'm not even gonna have thisconversation because but in that
conversation, because you know,these were oftentimes arguments
, it wasn't a daily thing soplease don't take it that way,
but no but they were oftenarguments and, and I would
notice, you would startescalating, which now would
(14:03):
cause me to escalate, and thenwe've lost focus of what the
whole Right.
And now we're not even talkingabout no what was actually being
discussed.
We're now getting to a pointwhere it's like hurt people,
hurt people, right.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
And what I, what for me like.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Just name calling and yeah, you know stuff like that
I mean Um.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
What I realized is that over time, whatever was
wrong never got talked aboutbecause again it escalated and
then turned into something youknow, when we were dating for
two months, blah blah, whatever,and you know we're five, six
years in our marriage, um, so itnever really got solved.
Whatever was wrong?
Um, and then I know for me,like I internalized a lot and at
certain points I I like it shutme down towards you where I was
(14:51):
just like I'm not even gonnatalk to him about certain things
.
Does that make sense?
yeah, um so I was like for me itwas just easier, just to, I'll
deal with it, I'll figure it outon my own which can cause um
division in a marriage, whichwas never your point.
And I think had you evenconnected that dot at that time,
(15:13):
it might have I don't know,maybe at the time you wouldn't
have because, whatever, it was adifferent time.
But I think for me, as like therecipient, it just.
But I think for me, as like therecipient, it just, like I
didn't, I didn't feel like Icould trust you, but not in a
(15:35):
not in a.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
he's lying, Not in dishonest kind of way.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
I just didn't feel.
I hate the word safe but, um, Ididn't feel good having certain
conversations with you, right?
So I would just let thingsbuild up and fester inside me
and then which would createother problems.
Right, because it became like apoison.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
And then I would just Well then, you're bitter and
angry towards me.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
I'm bitter and angry towards you and then something
small would happen, and thenthat would be my open
opportunity to pour out theanger that I had because of your
anger which would in turn againit would just turn into another
right argument that neverreally had nothing got solved.
And for me as a wife you know,as a christian wife um, it took
(16:22):
me a while to realize I neededto be going to Jesus and not
going off on you about stuff.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
All right, but what's that mean?
Go to Jesus, because we, asChristians, we use that term a
lot.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
We like saying that.
So going to Jesus, take it tothe foot of the cross.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Cling to Jesus, and you should be but cling to Jesus
is Right, but let's put someFlesh on it.
Let's put some flesh on it.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Nope, nope, nope I put some reality to it.
Yes, In practical terms.
Practical terms was.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
RIP Probably Christian.
I just saw the logo for it.
Yesterday too.
I was like we should switchback.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
I was like no uh, remembering that, Um, and
honestly it's funny because alot of what I use I actually got
from you, you know, learningfrom you from scripture, um, you
know, even though you wereangry, I'd remember be angry and
sin, not um effusions war whichis hard for me, because I
(17:15):
wanted to be angry and throwstuff and cuss you out and yell
at you and we're gonna get to.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
We're gonna get to what the gospel bears down on
that in a second.
Right now I just kind of wantto like before we get to that
point okay I just kind of wantto look at it as people, right,
as people.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
I had to realize that you weren't.
It wasn't a personal attack onme, it was more so.
It was a you thing, not a mething, and I didn't need to add
to that.
So when I would find myselfgetting frustrated and going I
really like I'm on, like I'll bejust transparent going I'm so
freaking sick and tired I wasn'tgonna say anything bad so sick
(17:50):
and tired of listening to this.
Right now I would just stilllisten to it because I knew it
had to.
You had to get it out, okay,and and I.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
I understand that, but like what do you think
marriage wise?
Um, what was it doing to you asa wife?
Speaker 3 (18:10):
it made me feel isolated as far as our marriage
went um, it made me I justdidn't feel like I was in, like
there was like not a dualitythere, it was just it was you
and then there was me.
But there, um, it made me feelless of an us and I didn't feel
connected to you, like I couldjust completely come to you and
(18:34):
pour my heart out, like I didn't.
I was like I that's, I can't dothat right because I would look
at you and go.
He's got way too much going onand he can't even though he's
supposed to, he can't carry theburden with me Cause he's got
his own crap to deal with, whichit just, it just I didn't look,
(18:57):
I didn't look at you.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
That's gonna make me cry as someone who could care
for and nurture and protect yourheart and and all of that.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
And you just become this beast, Just like Hulk right
.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Yes, um, and it made me go.
I have to carry all this insideby myself which, again touching
on the gospel, like it did,make me go to Jesus more.
I'm air quoting, you can't see,but yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
And, and, yeah, and.
When I said the gospel like, Ididn't mean like you're not
allowed to talk about it like.
Obviously you know, becausethat's going to be the question
at this point in everyone's mind.
I'm sure you know someonelistening right now is sitting
here going.
I'm in that situation, whetherthey're, you know, coming from
my perspective or yours.
(20:05):
Right.
But they're sitting here goinghow, how do you move past that
situation?
And so, who do you want to gofirst?
Do you want me to go first, andand how I wound up moving past
it, or you, you?
Speaker 3 (20:22):
you go first all right.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
So for for me and again this is something like one
I want to say this disclaimer Idon't think you ever move past
no right, I I think you learn tocope.
I think you learn to cope.
I think you learn um differentstrategies.
I think you learn you know toto identify different triggers
and things like that, but Idon't think it's something you
(20:43):
ever like.
Oh, I don't deal with thatanymore.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Um, right, right, yeah, cause I think some people,
it's something you grow in,it's something you mature in.
You learn how to work through?
Yes, you learn how to workthrough you.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Yes, you learn how to work through, because anger is
still, to this day, my go-toprimary emotion, correct um, and
it is still that emotion that Ican process all of the other
negative emotions through.
I just can do it in a morehealthy way, right um you know
through learning how to but forme it was you know, and I
learning how to.
But for me it was you know, andI can even go back to that same
(21:17):
night.
You know, I just got off ofwork, started drinking.
I don't know a couple of hourshad went by and I was on the
cell phone and I say cell phonelike that because it was when
they first came out.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
It was a cellular device.
It was not an iPhone.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
This is almost 20 years ago, so you know a little
bit past the bag, the phone in abag, but not quite to an iPhone
.
And we were talking and Iremember, like you know, on the
phone I was like I hate you andI hate my life and I hate, and I
(22:00):
hate my life and I hate, and,and in that moment I noticed.
It wasn't you I was angry at.
It was me, first of all, um,and, and looking at all the
mistakes that had made, you know, led me to the place and
position I was in right and andin, in, honestly in, in a God
given moment of clarity the nextday, you know cause.
You were like hey, like thiswas your one oops, and yeah, and
(22:22):
there was.
There was a lot of other thingsthat transpired that night that
you know.
I didn't wind up coming backhome, you know, until like five
the next morning.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
We both left Right, you didn't come home.
Right, you didn't come home.
I left, yeah, I'm just sayinglike obviously it wasn't just
this one you know conversation.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Right.
But the next morning, you know,I was sitting out by the pool
and you came out carrying JT,who was a very, very little baby
at the time, little baby.
And you were like, hey, thiswas your one, oops.
And this was like even beforeyou could really get anything
out.
I was like, look, I'm sorry andfor those of you listening that
(22:58):
you're like, who cares about asorry, what you have to
understand is.
I do not apologize like thewords.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
I'm sorry oh, that sounds arrogant.
It's not that you don't.
It's not that you're not sorryabout stuff.
No, no, no, no.
You just don't use the words.
I don't apologize so for.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Debbie to hear me go.
I'm sorry, it wasn't that.
No, it's not a prideful I never, I'm never wrong.
Right.
Like.
No, I just don't believe in thewords.
I'm sorry.
Like that.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
That's a changed behavior, right you?
Speaker 1 (23:24):
know, and if you're truly sorry, you just won't do
it again, correct and and thatkind of that that broke my heart
in a way, know, realizing allof that and looking at you and
going, look, I'm sorry, like Idon't even have an excuse for it
, like it just, you know I, Ihad a god-given moment of
clarity of going it's me,there's something broken in me
(23:47):
which led me to be able to, atthat point, see scripture that
I'd already known right, it waswritten in your heart but see it
in a way I'd never seen itbefore, like um Ephesians 5,
when Paul goes you know husbands, um, you know wives, submit to
(24:07):
your husbands like duh.
I've said that since ourmarriage right, so so what?
And um but then it it led me tothe next verse, where he's
sitting here going husbands,love your wife, as Christ loved
the church and gave his life upfor her.
Right.
And and it made me look at Jesusin a different way and go like
(24:28):
Jesus knew what I was going tobe in, knew the person I was
going to be, and still chose tolay his life down for me.
And I went and now he's callingme to do the same thing for you
.
And and that was hard for me Um, not that I've never.
I mean, I've always been theone that worked and provided and
(24:49):
took care of and did thehusband things right, you know,
fix things at the house and mowthe lawn, protect.
You know that I've alwaysfilled that role.
But now it was like looking atyou differently and going.
But Jesus calls you to lay downeverything you are right not
just do the the husbandly thingsright um, but to lay down
(25:09):
everything you are and thatincludes you right, like that
includes myself, and that's whenI went um.
I gotta get a handle on thislike this.
Can't keep progressing the waythat it's going um, because what
I'm doing to her is putting aweight on her um that she could
(25:31):
not carry um, because I'm tryingto take all of the things
inside of me that are broken andwrong and lay it on her and go
hey, you need to carry this.
And.
I go.
What kind of husband does that?
Now, before anyone gets anyideas like so, there's a couple
of things I want to talk aboutwith that.
(25:51):
Number one is this Could youhave come to me at any point and
told me any of that?
Speaker 3 (25:58):
could I've told you those words yeah, sure, would
they have mattered?
Speaker 1 (26:02):
no, not at all.
All right, so even if you cameto me and been like, hey, we
need to talk about this, you'reputting a weight on me, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, itwouldn't have necessarily
mattered, right, right, I meanI'm sure I would have heard the
words you were saying, and andand all of that.
Number two, again going back toI hate that saying just, you
(26:22):
know, just give it to Jesus,because that is a very Christian
thing to say.
That really has no practicalityin it.
Right.
It's sitting here going Jesusforgave me for this.
Okay, I have that forgivenessand and there's nothing I can do
to earn that forgiveness, butrepentance is a turning away
(26:46):
from that right and and sittinghere going, it's okay to be
angry like you.
You had quoted ephesians 4earlier where paul to be angry
Like you.
You had quoted Ephesians fourearlier, where Paul goes be
angry and sin not Like Jesus gotangry, God gets angry.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Like there's righteous anger.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
You read through the prophets and you see God has
turned his face from Israel.
Being angry is not the problem.
It's what you do with that anger, and, and that's where I went.
Things had to change correct,and and that's where I went.
Things had to change because,for me, what I would do with
that anger was go, I don't wantto deal with life, I just want
(27:23):
to have some drinks, act likenone of this ever happened, get
angry and then whatever is in mypath, is collateral damage
correct?
Whatever is in my path, iscollateral damage Correct?
Where I went, first andforemost, I need to fix the
things that I'm so angry about.
Right, like hey, I chose to giveaway scholarships to go to
(27:48):
college, and you know all ofthat, and I'm not saying college
is for everyone, but it wasdefinitely for me, correct, and
and so I had to go back.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Um, I knew I was in the position I was in in life
because of the choices, becauseof the choices I made, so I had
to make different choices see,but I think that's a lot of
things could be fixed in withpeople if they were to look in
the mirror and go oh, I did thatright.
Oh, this is my fault.
I should have made personalaccountability and
responsibility is huge right andif, if that happened more often
(28:18):
, not just with men, I mean withwomen too going I like I did
this that you would you therewould be much more growth, much
faster yesterday in bible.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
That was one of the things during bible class that I
was talking to the kids aboutum, where you know we were.
We were talking through why didGod create me?
Well, I mean simply put Godcreated you out of an overflow
of love and, and then sin camein and corrupted and, and so we
went down that, that path, andthen we were talking about um.
(28:47):
We were talking about um, the,the, the book, that, our Bible
book.
It was zephaniah 3 and it picksup in like verse 16 and it was
talking about you know how godhas not forsaken and will come
and restore.
And I was like, okay, and I getthat and, as christians, a lot
(29:10):
of time, that those are theverses we cling to right.
Jeremiah 29, 11 for I know theplans that I have for you
declares the lord plans toprosper you and not to harm you
right you know psalm 23, youknow we look at these and we go
god is for us and he is just notin the way we think he is.
He's for us, for himself, forhis glory.
Right, god is going to restoreand redeem, because that is who
(29:33):
god is, um.
So he's going to take brokencreation and and's going to go.
I'm going to redeem this for myglory.
But we have the tendency tolook at those verses and go oh
so this is bad, it must be fromthe devil.
And so what I was telling thekids was yeah, Jesus in John 15
(29:59):
says in this world, or 16, mightbe 16.
Anyway, it's one of the two Inthis world.
You will have trouble, but takeheart, I have overcome the
world.
Right, Right, You're going tohave trouble.
Things are going to go wrong.
Some of it is going to be outof the realm of your possibility
.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Things are going to go wrong.
Some of it is going to be outof the realm of your possibility
.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Our girls were born.
You know, we had a two and ahalf year old, two years old,
two year old.
And then we had twin girls bornand we were homeless Because
the housing market hit.
We both lost our jobs.
Very good jobs Ran through allof our money trying to, you know
, hold on to our house andeverything that.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Unemployment didn't pay much Didn't happen, oh,
eight, you know, and nobodywould hire us.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
To 2012 were bad years for a lot of people.
Oh yeah, we couldn't have seenthat coming.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
No.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
But then I was trying to get the kids to understand.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
But most of the time your life is the way it is
because of the choices that youmade.
Because of your choices.
I didn't know you talked aboutthat and literally had that
conversation in my bible classtoday so it was me coming to
that realization.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
When it came to anger , it was sitting here and going.
My life is where it is becauseof me, right, because the
choices I had made, um, forwhatever reason, and and I could
sit here, and that's hard toswallow sometimes.
And I can stomp my feet and Ican be angry, or I could be a
man and actually do things aboutit Right and actually go.
(31:26):
Hey, you know what, let me putin the work.
And yeah, it's twice as hard todo it right the second time,
correct, but it can still bedone.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
And it was done.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
And so for me it was.
It was realizing all that andthen putting in the work to
actually change that right tosit here and go.
Okay, when I get angry, oneidentify what am I angry at
right right and, and you know to, to sit here and go.
Ok, I need to focus the energy.
(31:55):
That would turn into anargument or, you know, would
turn into me just stomping andpouting, you know pouting and go
.
Ok, no like, let me use thatenergy to fix to fix that Mm hmm
.
Let me focus on that.
But I'm telling you, becausewe've had those conversations
(32:16):
right Before all of this, likewe had those conversations and
they didn't go well, so so I'mnot saying all of this to sit
here and go hey, you need to sitdown with your spouse and go.
Hey, you need to cause.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
I'm telling you that is not going to work out the way
you think it is.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
However, share the podcast with them.
Let them hear someone else tellthem hey, sometimes the problem
is you, Sometimes it is yourfault.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
And that doesn't mean you have to live there with it.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
And that's just what I was going to say and
understand.
That's not the end of the road.
You can rectify as long as youhave breath in your lungs.
We are given the ministry ofreconciliation.
Yes, first, corinthians nine Ibelieve you like.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
That is the ministry that we are given although when
the kids did say mr lively knowsall the bible verses, I do not.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
He knows a lot of them um, you know, and that
reconciliation goes not just forothers but for yourself too,
and so for me it was hitting allof that, and it was seeing
Jesus in that light.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Because you did have to forgive yourself for mistakes
you made.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
I did, and it's still something I struggle with.
Sure you, know, I have a wholelifetime.
Well, not a whole lifetime, butI mean everyone does at least
18 years of bad decisions butWell, not a whole lifetime, but
I mean everyone does At least 18years of bad decisions, of
mistakes.
But on the same hand I go.
You know, yes, all of us havethings in our past.
That was the hardest thing forme with cancel culture, and I
(33:47):
know this has nothing to do withwhat we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
But You're not even giving people an opportunity for
redemption.
It's not even that.
It's who are you to?
Not it's?
Not even that it's who are youto stand up?
You don't have anything in yourpast.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Right there's you're, uh, you're sitting here
attacking people and I go youhave your own mess right, and we
all do, yes, you know and, and,and we all have stories and we
all have that, but anyway, so sothat's where it got me, okay,
and so to give it to Christ forme meant I need to be like
Christ, like.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
I need to Serving sacrificial yes.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
I need to look at my marriage the way that Christ
commands me to look at mymarriage.
Right.
I need to look at this and go.
Jesus tells me to layeverything I am down for her,
and that includes myself, and soI would.
And I would go hey, look like,yeah, I'm angry, yeah, I had a
bad day, yeah, this went wrongor that went wrong or whatever
(34:47):
the case may be, but it wasn'tDebbie who did it.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
And those are things that you started to say out loud
.
I'm mad right now.
You know I got a lot on my mind, but it's not you, so that
would give me kind of a whew.
Okay, so I would.
That tension would drop.
Right.
And even though I was stillconcerned because you're
frustrated and of course I don'twant you to be angry I would
(35:13):
have some freedom going.
Okay, this doesn't mean thatit's going to turn into an
argument or a fight, because hejust said it's not me, right?
Um, you know there's nothingbetween us that's wrong.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
He's working through something right now so what gave
you the ability to go, hey, I'mgonna weather this storm and
hey, I'm going to?
Speaker 3 (35:33):
weather, this storm and stay.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Like I'm going to stay, I'm going to see where
this turns out, Like why, howdid you handle that on your side
?
Because I know there was a lotof prayer.
I know, I know Like you wouldliterally like lay hands and
pray on me at night.
I did when you thought I wassleeping, and all of that on me
(35:56):
at night when you thought I wassleeping, and all of that.
But what was it going?
Speaker 3 (36:04):
through your mind going, hey, like this is going
to change.
Well, a couple things.
I didn't 100% know it was goingto change, but I did know that.
I mean, I love you deeply andyou know your bouts of anger
(36:24):
weren't all the time and I knewyou'd never hurt me.
You know you'd never hurt thekids, but I knew we all have our
thing.
Your thing just happened to bestruggling with anger.
Um, mine is an emotional rollercoaster, so I mean we get to
that in a different podcast umyour thing and I and I knew you
(36:47):
didn't want to be like that likeagain never abusive, you'd
never hurt me, you'd never layhands on me.
Was that you?
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Was that you?
I was trying to look at youlike Tom, but I just took that
sip of water.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
That's the water.
I heard I lost focus, but Iknew you were singing my praises
.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
I would never hurt you, was I genuinely, even in my
lowest, still amazing husbandyes, I genuinely believed that
God was going to restore you um.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
I prayed for that.
I genuinely believe that youknow God was moving.
I knew God had called you toother things, um, and I might
get a little spiritual for asecond, but I know when God's
called you to other things.
Um, and I might get a littlespiritual for a second, but I
know when god's called you toshh, when god calls you to
something.
When god calls you to something, you're going to have attacks
(37:51):
from the enemy.
You are and, and to me,sometimes I would look at it as
an attack from the enemy,because that time that we would
spend arguing and we'd be spent,we'd spend, you know, engulfed
in this, you know, battle.
That's time that we were takingaway from the things that god
(38:12):
called us to do the kids, thekids, the kids ministry,
whatever, even just spendingquality time together, because
then what would happen for me?
I would be so frustrated, Ididn't want to spend quality
time with you, I didn't want tohang out with you, I didn't want
to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Which is hard, because not only are we husband
and wife, we are genuinely bestfriends Literally, we love
spending time together and evenwhen I'm mad, like Josh, is the
one I want to talk to.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
So to be so upset that I was like I don't want to
talk to him right now, like wewould sit down watch movie.
I just didn't want to be around.
I didn't want to go anywhereelse, but I just didn't want to
be there, right.
So it caused an emotionaldivision for me because I just
didn't see him as that person Icould lean on anymore, him, you.
(39:01):
I like I'm talking to people Imean I am so to me.
You have to.
I knew I had to be aware that,okay, this isn't just a bout of
anger from Josh.
I have to be aware that theenemy is seeking to kill, steal
and destroy my marriage, myhusband, my family, ministry,
everything God called us topeace, tranquility.
(39:22):
So I had to.
There were times I had to keepmyself in check and go.
I can't join in because one Iknow it's not me Sometimes.
I mean, sometimes it was me,it's not me, and I know it's not
always going to be like this.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Well, and one of the things I can appreciate looking
back on it now, um, and itwasn't like this early in our
marriage.
Like early in our marriage, itwas definitely like you want to
go tit for tat on everything, Um, and then it wound up being way
worse than it ever should havebeen, Um.
But especially after, you know,after this whole period, um,
(40:05):
you were very grace filled a lotof the time and and going as I
was trying to learn those newskills of processing and and
being able to go okay, hold on,let me identify what I'm angry
at, Um, and then let me, youknow, brainstorm ways that I can
deal with that in a healthy way.
Um, you were very grace, filledin the fact that it was all
(40:29):
right, let's try it.
You know, and, and you knew atthat point that sometimes, as a
helpmate, you know, you knew,okay, sometimes I need to say
something, something, sometimesI just need to not just be quiet
and listen just he'll, he'llkind of like he'll kind of burn
himself out.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
You would.
You would go on and on and on,and you weren't really looking
for feedback, you weren't evenlooking for a conversation you
were just trying to getsomething out and you were kind
of having a conversation withyourself right I just happened
to be there.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
And since I am the smartest person I know, oh boy.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
So full of humility, Um, you would, you'd be working
it out.
And then, before I realized it,I mean, there were times I
would try to constantlyinterject, but then, once I
learned you a little more andwent, oh okay, this is just how
he's processing.
I just need to step back and go.
Did you want me like, are youlooking for advice?
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Well, and I still do that, but I mean, I've done that
almost the entire time.
We've been together whereyou'll start going into
something I'll be like hold on,is this a?
You're looking for feedback ordo you just need to get this out
?
Speaker 3 (41:36):
And that is something I learned from you and I'm
thankful for that, because itgave I think it gives us the
opportunity to go.
Are we listening to respond?
Are we listening just to be?
Speaker 1 (41:46):
well, you should always seek first to understand
seven habits of highly effectivepeople.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
Um, that was part of being proactive.
I'm trying to.
You know it's just in thereletting you work things out, and
then there are some times whereI would be like, well, hang on,
hang on.
Have you looked at it from thisperspective?
Speaker 1 (42:04):
but, and you have to, you have to know but I didn't.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
I had to, I had to really like for me, I go, and I
think a lot of women strugglewith it.
We want to like, we get toocaught up emotionally and it's
like men aren't as emotional aswe are in the same or in the
same way.
We are Right, so sometimes wejust have to go.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
There is a difference between men and women.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
Yes, you have to go For me.
I was like OK, I mean, I gotreally good at going, OK, All
right.
You know, I did learn that fromyou too.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Well, no, and like you were just saying, though,
that I mean you have to knowyour spouse, your partner, your
kids good, enough, because Imean all of this applies to
every relationship.
Yeah, like this could.
Speaker 3 (42:46):
We could just as easily be talking about a
friendship we have three kidsand we deal with each one of
them overall overarching.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
We are how we are as parents, but we deal with each
one of them individually right,because they're not the same
right and and you have to knowthat because, yeah, like you
just said, there are times whereI'm going to talk something out
out loud.
You know, I'm a verbalprocessor.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
Sometimes to exhaustion where it's like okay.
Enough All right and for me,like even taking it back to you
know, I clung to the feet ofJesus.
I literally my prayer was God,help me see him the way you see
him, because how I'm seeing himright now is not very good.
Right, and so my prayer wasthat God changed my heart,
(43:32):
changed my viewpoint, and helpme see you for the child that he
created you to be.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Well, and the brokenness.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
And that's what I mean, and that's what I meant,
yeah because I needed to be ableto see you and I only knew that
because these are conversationswe've had right I needed to see
that in you, because there wasa time that I didn't see you as
broken, I didn't see you asneeding any help or anything, so
that was overwhelming.
So to be able to see you as areal person, with real flaws and
(44:05):
struggles yeah yeah.
I went oh my gosh, it gave mesuch a.
It softened my heart to you ina way that it hadn't been for a
long time, because my heart hadbeen hardened towards you right,
um, and that was hard for me.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
And I'll tell you, like JT, if I really want to get
JT to do something, you knowschoolwork if I really want them
to get a schoolwork done.
I just got to make them angrybecause we've instilled luckily,
you know as parents knowingthese tips and and, and knowing
(44:44):
parents, knowing these tips andand and knowing not tips really,
but tools.
I guess you could saystrategies and going, hey, like,
here's how you like, and Iagain, I hate to keep bringing
up the incredible hole, but likein 2008's incredible hulk with
edward norton, not mark ruffalo,we watch a lot of movies at the
end of the movie okay, and thiswas 2008.
So if if you're like, oh, youspoiled the movie shame on you.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
Shame on you.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
You should have watched it at the end of the
movie, you know, he's like hehas to go fight abomination and
and they're like, well, he'slike I need to go.
It has to be me, you know.
And they're like, well, can youcontrol it?
And he's like, no, but maybe ifI could aim it and I go.
And that's what anger did forme.
(45:27):
Right.
I will tell you right now angeris not always the bad thing,
like, in fact, in the bookFighting Shadows in fact tonight
like during the men's bookstudy.
We're we're going to be goingover this a little bit over
ambition, and and one of thethings it talks about is you
have to turn, you have to befrustrated enough to change
(45:51):
Right.
You like I and this issomething we talk about a lot
like until you hate somethingenough, you won't change it.
Correct Right, like you couldbe like oh, I need to lose
weight, I need to lose weight, Ineed to lose weight.
For me, it was like when I hita certain pant size, I went nope
, not having that.
Nope, nope, nope.
That is a true story.
Like we are exercising.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
We are dieting Like we are doing this, the whole
family is doing it.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
And where you have to , you have to get angry enough
to go.
I'm going to change this.
Speaker 3 (46:21):
Because if you sit with your anger and you don't do
anything about it, it's goingto eat you alive.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Right, but it can also be a huge driving force
behind.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
That's what I'm saying it needs to be a driving
force.
Speaker 1 (46:31):
And that catalyst and change yeah.
Speaker 3 (46:32):
Because, I mean anger got you to finish the
bachelor's and master's in ayear and a half.
It got you to change yourcareer.
I mean it really sparked thebeginning of a lot of great
things.
Because you were so angry athow it was, you were like no,
it's gotta be another way.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Right, and that's where I went.
So coming on the other side ofthat and being able to walk
through all of that and see allof that and go, oh wow, this can
be something that you can usefor good, right, yeah.
And go, oh wow, this can besomething that you can use for
good, right, yeah, like that'ssomething we we've really tried
to instill in jt and our son.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
Yeah, you have to hate this enough to do something
.
Speaker 1 (47:08):
The girls- too, but like in a different way, like
you just said, the girls don'trespond like that like jt does
right.
You know, and most guys do, andwhen you get angry enough about
something, you will change itright, like, and so it's sitting
here going like.
For me, even going back to whatwe were talking about, it was
when I got angry enough atmyself, right, and I went on the
(47:29):
problem, and that's when Ineeded to change.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
And that takes a lot of maturity and growth and
that's big to go.
Oh, it's me.
Okay, this is my fault.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
So laying it at the cross laying it at.
Jesus's feet for me was sittinghere and going.
I need to repent, like I.
I need to work on this.
Speaker 3 (47:47):
Like I need to fix it , and you came to me and said
that.
I mean you came to me and wetalked about it.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
I mean I say talked about it Like at first I had to
get there first.
Yeah, first I had to go toJesus Right and then and then
through that was able to go okaynow.
Speaker 3 (48:04):
I'm not going to go to Debbie.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
Right.
Speaker 3 (48:05):
And I mean for me as a wife.
I'm not talking about likepraying, like a like.
I prayed incessantly over it.
Right, um, almost to the pointwhere it was like okay yeah,
okay, yeah, or you're making meangry with your prayers, like,
um, you know I talked to.
(48:26):
I mean, I had women in my lifethat were, you know, great
examples and and I was able andyou had women in your life who
were like, hey, it's time to goI did have one in my life that
were different podcasts.
We can get into a wholedifferent conversation, um, but
yeah, I did have, so be carefulwho you listen to.
Um, I don't talk to those womenanymore, but yeah, I had women
in my life, older women that had, you know, weathered storms and
(48:48):
had been married for a longtime.
That really poured into me, um,and I look back now and it
might make me cry again.
Um, I'm like literally forevergrateful and thankful.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
I mean, they prayed with me, they prayed for me,
they prayed for you, they prayedfor the kids yeah, I know, and
then when I would show up atchurch irregularly at the time
right and then, like theseladies, these older ladies,
would come up to me and be likeyou're josh right we've been
praying for you like we werepraying for you and then it's
like why are you praying for me?
Speaker 3 (49:22):
like um, but I also, I also pray that god show me the
areas in my life that I neededto change, because I couldn't
have just looked at you and beenlike, oh he's the problem, even
in situations where you werethe problem, but that's why
jesus says that right, how areyou gonna take the log out?
Speaker 1 (49:39):
or how are you going to take the speck out of your
neighbor's eye?
Speaker 3 (49:42):
I had to look.
You know, there's hard workthat we as wives we have to do,
or whatever husbands, whoever ison either side to go.
What part did I play and howcan I be better and what can I
do to help that other person?
Speaker 1 (49:57):
Amen.
So I hope you liked the how-toseries.
Like I said, this was just thefirst one.
We're going to experiment withsome other ones.
Oh boy, if you like it, youknow, let us know.
Yep, let us know in thecomments of wherever you see
this.
You could always reach out atinfo at missionscentorg, or, if
you are one of the people thathave our phone, give us a call
(50:21):
are one of the people that haveour phone.
Give us a call, texas.
Other than that, we thank you,we love you.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
We can't do this out without you, and we'll see you
next time.
Bye guys.
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