July 18, 2025 • 39 mins
What happens when a pastor and his wife have a "robust conversation" on air? Find out as we dive into the authentic, sometimes uncomfortable reality of marriage in ministry.
During this uniquely vulnerable episode, I challenge Debbie to share what genuinely frustrates her about me, triggering a fascinating exploration of how we handle conflict. The conversation quickly reveals fundamental differences in our approaches—my tendency to seek facts and evidence versus Debbie's desire for emotional validation. This tension points to a deeper question: how public should a pastor's marriage be?
Most Christians present a polished version of themselves at church while hiding their struggles. As Debbie aptly points out, we're often "comparing our worst day to someone else's filtered best day." But authentic ministry requires transparency. If people are to "imitate me as I imitate Christ" (1 Corinthians 11:1), they need to see not just our strengths but how we navigate our weaknesses.
We examine how gender differences affect communication, with men typically wanting to solve problems while women often seek understanding. Through Romans 12, we discover biblical wisdom for "living peaceably with one another" and the importance of "rejoicing with those who rejoice and weeping with those who weep." The powerful coffee cup analogy reminds us that unresolved issues will eventually spill out, affecting those closest to us.
Whether you're in ministry or simply seeking a healthier relationship, this episode offers practical insights on handling conflict with grace, addressing issues before they become "infections," and finding strength in vulnerability. What frustrations might your spouse identify in you? How might addressing them transform your relationship?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
All right, on this episode, I'm going to do what
very what I assume very few mendo, okay, and I'm going to
actually pick a fight with mywife, like you guys are going to
hear us fight.
I'm not sure I like this helloand welcome to another episode
(00:38):
of faith, family and fishingwhere we are sharing jesus and
strengthening families welcome.
You know how long it took me tocome up with that sharing jesus
you know how long it took me tocome up with that sharing jesus
, strengthening families howlong?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
three months, maybe?
That's ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Well, I was like, okay, we need to like have a
focus for what.
This is sure right, because itis very broad, um, but on the
same hand, you know, I wanted tomake sure again.
What is the point?
Why are we doing this?
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Why are we taking time out of our day, our
schedule, our family, all thethings from fishing, exactly?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
But like you heard in the opening there, Debbie
really never knows what we'regonna do these episodes on no
like she usually finds out maybea couple of hours before the
episode, or if it's sometimes acouple minutes or during the
episode um, it's always fun andsometimes you know it may get to
(01:40):
like maybe I give you a coupleof days if it's something.
I think like, hey, she needs toresearch a lot on this one, but
this one we were driving intothe office this morning and and
Debbie had another appointmentshe had to go to, which I knew
she would be gone for at leastyou know, an hour, hour and a
half, and I was like, okay, here, you know, since we know we're
(02:00):
recording when we come back theafternoon, or not the afternoon,
but late morning, um, here'swhat the episode's gonna be.
I want you to come up withthree things that I do that just
genuinely cut right through you, that just really really work
your nerves and and tick you off.
(02:21):
And, and I wanted to do thisfor a couple of reasons.
Number one we had a whole Idon't want to say an argument,
because it wasn't an argument-conversation a robust
conversation yesterday good wordfor it robust okay um, just
about like what the role?
like?
I made the comment that, as apastor, people should be close
(02:46):
enough to see me argue with you,right, um, in first Corinthians
11, one, paul says this imitateme as I imitate Christ.
Well, if you don't know whatPaul's doing like cause, let's
be honest, right, most people,most people who are a part of a
church, you have two differentpeople.
You have the person you arewhen you're around your church
(03:07):
friends.
Right.
Whether that's at church or orat a church event or something
of that nature.
And then you have the real youand we can argue and say I'm
sorry, that's okay, do?
Speaker 3 (03:20):
you need me to get it .
No, I'll get it.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
And we can argue and we can say that that's not true.
But Sorry.
If that's you, you're a liar.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Right, it's not the real you.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
You know, I think in the decade I've been doing this
in various roles and functions.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
In the decade I've been doing this I think once I'd
asked a person like, as youknow, they're coming in, it's
like, hey, how's it going?
Speaker 1 (03:50):
you know, how are you .
You know that greeting that weall do and everyone knows the
right words, right oh, I'm greatI'm good.
You know, it's been a roughweek.
I'm a little tired, but I'mgood, but I'm good.
You know, I think I've had oneperson that was like oh, I'm
barely holding it together whichthrew you off.
I didn't even know, what to dolike I was like, oh man, um, my
(04:10):
bad, you want to talk, you wantto pray, like how do you want
this to go?
And and it was you know like,and it did.
It threw me off because that'snot the good christian response.
No, but the conversation cameup because of stuff like that,
because I go.
If all you see is this snapshotlike think about social media.
(04:33):
Honestly, right, you'recomparing your worst day to
someone else's filtered best dayright right like they don't go
to vacation in the tropics.
You know the caribbean and it iscaribbean, not caribbean.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Um, in the caribbean, like that's not just someone's
normal tuesday morning right butyou're comparing, they're not
swimming in the waters of borabora just just on a whim like
right I mean some people, somepeople that may be your life
your normal person.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
That just doesn't happen yeah, you may got it like
that, but most people do notmost of your quote unquote
friends on facebook or instagramor wherever.
That's not their every day, butyou're comparing your worst time
to their best time and that'swhat people normally do, right,
you know?
And when we always portrayourselves in that certain light
(05:25):
of I'm good, I got it just theother night, right, you know,
you, you were having a hard timewith some health, uh related
issues and I was like Deb, I getit.
Like you know, I'm self-con.
No, it wasn't even healthrelated.
It was, um, was itself-conscious issues, like.
All I know is my response washow I feel, knowing I'm balding.
(05:49):
It was health related.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
I was like I'm tired of feeling like this.
I'm frustrated, I'm annoyed, Ican't.
There's nothing I do that helpsme.
And then you share with me howfrustrated you are when you look
down in the mirror.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
It was about getting older.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Because I was like you're never going to feel the
way you did at 18.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Right.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
You know, we're not 18 anymore.
Right Like our bodies don'treact.
And that's how.
That's how it came up.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Right.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
And I was telling you on our way back.
No, it was while we were onvacation.
Yeah, I went into one of thebathrooms the beach right and,
uh, you know to to change, itwas a slanted mirror.
Yeah, the mirror slanted like,it was like a 30 degree coming
off the wall, so it was kind oflooking down, um, and you locked
eyes with it.
I'd look down at the sink, youknow, to wash my hands, and I
(06:35):
look like my eyes came up firstand I could see the top of my
scalp and I'm like man, I'mbalding Because if I look
straight on in the mirror, Ionly see the front of my hair
and I got plenty of hair upthere.
But, man, when you see the top,it's like I have a rim and that
was the description I gave you.
(06:56):
It looks like a volcano rightAround.
The outside it's thick, butit's like a big hole in the
middle.
I can't stop it.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
It's worse to you than what it actually is, and
that's where you're like.
How dare you not?
Speaker 1 (07:10):
no, it's bad.
That's why I wear a hat, likeI'm trying to talk myself into.
Could I preach with a hat on?
Speaker 3 (07:16):
hang on.
This is why I tell you whenit's time to cut your hair, but
you don't listen because that'salways been my deal right.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
I knew I was gonna bald right, like it's just
genetics.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Yes, my family both sides mom and dad all the men,
doesn't even matter who it comesfrom.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
It's happening and I was like, just I don't want to
be that guy that looks like he'sholding on longer, but anyway,
so so I share like that was agood conversation so I share all
this with you, and yourresponse to me was but you
always portray yourself like yougot it all together, like
there's nothing you strugglewith, like like you got all of
(07:52):
it and and I was like man that'sright, and what I said was it
shouldn't take me having this abreakdown shouldn't be on my
deathbed right, I shouldn't be,you know, one step away from the
thread breaking for you to belike.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Oh, by the way, I got some struggles too, because it
makes it, you make it, makes youseem unattainable and that's
what we do ultimately.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
When, when we're not sharing those parts of our lives
, when all people know is, oh,you've got it all together right
, you are taking away anyability.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
You have to be there for someone else right like
people don't always know thatyou're an introvert, right like
they.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
It throws them off right and and I'm in the middle,
like I'm not you're anextroverted introvert yeah, I'm
not one of those like hey, we'rejust gonna go live in a cave.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
I mean I would be fine with it.
That's not your goal, right.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
I love people and I love being there to help people.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Just a certain number of people at one time.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yes, but, and that's where that comment yesterday in
that conversation came from likewhere I was like.
People need to see thebrokenness so that they can see
Christ coming through Right Inthe sanctification process of
your life.
They need to understand I don'thave it all together Right, but
(09:20):
this is how Jesus is workingand pruning those areas in my
life to conform me to his image.
Right, which ultimately shouldbe the goal of any disciple or
Christian or however you want tosay it Right.
So I was like how can we dothis in a way that is going to
(09:42):
help people?
That is going to help peopleand I know one of your areas of
discomfort is personal thingsout in public space and I was
like I got it.
What are three areas?
Speaker 3 (09:58):
I have trust issues.
I don't trust anybody.
Actually, I trust probablythree people.
I was about to say am I?
I trust?
Speaker 1 (10:04):
probably three people , am I?
I was about to say, am I one ofthe three?
Speaker 3 (10:07):
And then two more, and that's literally it.
I love everybody, I just don'ttrust everybody.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
I don't know.
I just I can't see how thosethings go hand in hand, Because
in order for me to love you, Ihave to trust that I can be
vulnerable with you.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
I think that's a whole different space.
Trust that I can be vulnerablewith you, I think that's a whole
different space.
I love people that I cannot bevulnerable around because they,
the wretchedness that residesdeep within their soul, is way
too.
It's just way too much.
Now I know that if I sharesomething with them, they'll
potentially use it against me ortry, or you know, share it with
(10:45):
everybody else in the world oruse my vulnerability.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
I only did that once.
I'm not talking about you, soactually I do that every Sunday.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Yeah, when I'm always like, oh gosh, what's he going
to say now, clenching my chest.
Please don't you and JT, youguys give me the most material
to work with.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Thank you, kayla's up there too.
She's getting there.
Gabby's starting she's trailingbehind kayla's really starting
to come into her own, though, um, but so again, like what is it?
Like what's number one?
Like you, sit here and go thisright here.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
This is the thing that so if we're in a
conversation and I go, you knowwhat are you laughing?
Speaker 1 (11:31):
hold on.
Is it my facial expressions?
No, the rolling the eyes those.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Just that's just a.
I think that's just a givenwhat I think any husband and
wife have, that you make thatface one more time.
Um, actually, that's the lowestone.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
But I do want to point out one thing real quick,
before we even jump into that.
You guys hear how we're likelaughing as we're doing this.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
These are real things .
Speaker 1 (11:53):
This is how our arguments go, because I do have
the tendency To just startlaughing.
Usually at something Debbiesays or does, Like yesterday it
was I got to get my eyes on it.
Like we're in the middle ofthis robust conversation, I go.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
I don't know.
I got to see, I got to get myeyes on it.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
And she made that comment and I was like what is
that, like you know, cause wewere talking about a lot of
different scriptures, becausethe and really you were asking
and I'm going to try to rephraseit you tell me if I, you know,
got it right, because that'll atleast show if I do active
listening.
Oh boy, really, what you wereasking was for biblical, for a
(12:35):
biblical understanding of howpublic a pastor's marriage
should be Like.
How much of a pastor's marriageshould other people see?
Should there be things that arekept private, or should it be
just in front of everyone?
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Was that what you were asking?
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Yes, I was asking for biblical context.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
And I was telling you , there's not just like one
verse we could go to.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
What I was saying is give me biblical context, give
me scripture in context thatyour marriage should be on
display right and, and so not apersonal opinion because I go
give.
Don't give me a personalopinion because you're real big
on.
Don't give me your personalopinion so evidence and fact.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Yes, so give me that.
Yes, and, and I was explainingto you like there isn't one
verse that just hey, boom, hereit is.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Right, and you did give me some good verse.
I mean, you gave me goodscripture that shared how to be
more like Christ.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
So, like in our Wednesday night class, we're
doing systematic theology andit's you have to look at
everything from Genesis toRevelation, because stuff
doesn't exist in a vacuum.
You can't just take this onethought and and create a
theology out of it right, if itisn't consistent with the rest
of scripture right and, and so Imean we were covering leviticus
.
We were covering like we wentinto um.
(13:57):
You know those books that mostpeople don't even know are there
.
And at the end you were likeyou've given me a lot to think
about, I gotta get my eyes on it.
And I lost it because I waslike what are we in the?
Speaker 3 (14:18):
50s who talks like that?
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Your wife does.
And then, when I startedlaughing, I think you were like,
okay, it's okay, we can bothstart laughing Right.
I think you were like, okay,it's okay, we can both start
laughing Right.
And my dad told me my whole youknow young life before we got
married Josh, here's the secretto stopping any argument with
your wife.
And for those of you that arelike, oh, just start laughing.
(14:42):
That wasn't his advice.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
That could backfire quickly.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
It has actually for you.
It was not for me because youwere like you've been very mad
where I'm like what?
And he's laughing, yeah but?
But it was sit close to her,grab her hand, look her right in
the eye and go.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Yes, dear oh my gosh and and again.
Terrible advice terrible, thatdoes not start or stop.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
I tried it when we first got married.
It did not work, so number onego.
What is the biggest?
Not my facial expression, notyour face.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
That's your third, that's third, and whatever that
is who you are, you're going todo that forever.
That's fine.
When we're talking and you'reand I go.
You know you do this, blah,blah, blah, blah and it might be
something that I've noticedover the course of sometimes
it's been our whole marriage andit's just really getting to me
and you go that's not true and Igo, but it is because I'm
(15:43):
telling you it's true.
Why are you laughing?
Because you know it's true.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
That's not true.
That's not what happens.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Give me fact, give me evidence, give me.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
And I do do that.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
And you do that Now.
For the most part, I'm okaywith that.
There's a couple of things thatbother me about that One, I
don't take notes.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
I can never.
I never have fact and opiniondebates what I'm feeling, so it
makes me mad.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Because these are things that have happened and
I'm in, I can't Stop it, andwhat happens is Dang it, josh.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
This is what happens.
And then you're like hold on,what was I saying?
So, when I say that Right.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
And then you go.
It must not be important, andto me I think that comes across.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
As arrogant.
We've had this.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
Obviously, we've talked about this.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
We've had this robust conversation a lot let me
finish I am.
This is the other thing, too,that I know.
This is the other thing I knowI do that that really just gets
under your skin is.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
We're having a robust conversation and I'm like
you're playing the conversationfour sentences down, right, yeah
, and I go have the conversationby yourself, because you don't
need me to be here and we'vedone, yeah, and I go have the
conversation by yourself,because you don't need me to be
here and we've done that I'll goto the store, um, because what
it does on a deeper level, itmakes me go.
You're not valuing what I'msaying, um, you're essentially,
(17:24):
in my opinion, calling me a liarand going.
All those things that you seein me as my wife, as the person
that loves me the most, doesn'tmatter.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
I'm your husband.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
As your wife.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yes, but the way I heard it was like you were
calling me your wife and thatwasn't.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
And that irritates me because I think it comes from
again.
It seems to come from a placeof arrogance.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Sometimes, as I look through it deeper, it may come
from a place of Well it'sdefinitely brokenness.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Yeah, and I don't think you mean to come off that
way.
I don't think you mean to comeoff that way.
I just think some of it's adefense mechanism and going.
That's not true.
I'm not like that, because youdo fight.
I do see you fight against somuch of the things that I mean.
You worked on a lot over thecourse of our marriage, like
(18:22):
you've changed a lot, you'vedone a lot, you've grown
exponentially in ways that Ithink people that knew you 20
years ago would have been likeJosh, who yeah.
You know.
So I've seen that growth.
So I think, and it could beagain from a place of brokenness
, maybe a sore wound that's nothealed yet, going whoa, whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
You're coming at me sideways and I think and I could
be wrong, you could you'regetting defensive and then it
misses where I'm coming from so,and and the one thing I want to
point out before I even jumpinto any kind of response is um,
I like how you said, I don'twrite stuff down, you know,
(19:04):
because, again, if we'refollowing scripture and we're
sitting here going, this is whatlove is.
And in first corinthians, 13,paul, that that's verb, almost
verbatim what he says.
Love keeps no record ofwrongdoing right some of
problems that that especially inin marriage counseling that I
see is hold on.
I will say we have kept noteson this.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Hold on.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
But we did that on purpose, like that was something
we discussed and went.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Wait, the first time I did not expect you.
I told you to write it down.
And then got mad because Iwrote it down and then he
brought out his phone and openedup his notes and it was like
are you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (19:48):
So I was like this is a no-win situation.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
That started a whole other argument, I'm sorry, a
whole other robust conversation.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
But I go that was funny.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
It wasn't funny at the time.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Yes, we don't keep record of wrongdoing.
In other words, if you'reholding on to that, pardon me.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
If you're holding on, to that, pardon me if you're
holding onto all of that and itjust becomes a tit for tat
you're not going to be gainingany ground in that conversation
and there are sometimes thatdoes happen and I think we need
to recognize arrogance sometimes.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
For me, and just in, in my perspective of this um,
it's not a defense mechanism,like it's not.
Okay, you said something aboutme, so'm gonna buck up, right,
the.
The reason I go okay, give mean example, give me evidence,
give me you know something ofthat nature is you know facts
(20:41):
and and stuff like that is moreso because I go, I want to pull
feeling out of it.
Right, because feelings and andI know people really don't know
where I stand on feelings-because, half the people that
know me are like you're dead onthe inside and the other half of
people know I'm a verypassionate person and I feel
(21:03):
things very different, or deeplyright
but.
But I'm not like hinged on myfeeling, right, um, because
feelings are not right andthey're not wrong.
They they just are.
But when I view things throughfeeling opposed to when I view
things through truth and I thinkyou have to have both right
(21:25):
feelings are how you like.
Feelings are what you use tolive your life.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Right, Like you might have a gut feeling about
something that keeps you safe.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Even looking at it in the confines of our marriage,
right?
If I didn't feel things for youthen you would just be a
roommate.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
You know, so you need that part of it.
But to me truth will alwaystrump feeling.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Because that part of it.
But to me, truth will alwaystrump feeling, right?
Um, because a lot of times Imay not feel a certain kind of
way, but that doesn't mean Idon't need to act a certain kind
of way because of the fact thatI am your husband, you know.
So when I go, okay, like youbring up whatever right, like
you're so mean to me, becausethat's, that's a robust
conversation we've had before.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Because, because I haven't said you're mean to me.
I've said you're mean right butnot like you're coming at me
attacking me no mean, I don'twant people to think you're just
like you're a mean one.
Yeah, no I just start, josh.
It'll make all the sense whenyou come dressed.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
But anyway, no, no, no, no.
But like, because I viewfeeling in truth the way I view
feeling in truth, I can come offcold and and a lot of times
when, when going back to thewhole mean thing, I don't think
you're referring like mean, Ithink it's more along the lines
of you're very cold.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Um, because, like, when we're in the middle of a
robust conversation, I'm notsitting there and and you know,
I've heard so many, you knowother pastors that that I
genuinely look up to that thathave said, like, if she's, um, I
know joe b martin, he, he justdid a men's or I think it was a
men's conference.
I only saw the youtube thing forit um, but one of the things he
(23:14):
was saying is, when your wifecomes to you with feelings, you
have to deal with her withfeeling, um, you know, and, and,
and I get that right, like whenyou're coming at me with I feel
I can't come back with.
Well, the truth is Right.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Because it completely cuts my feet out from under me
and goes it doesn't matter whatyou're feeling, your feeling is
very invalid, right?
Speaker 1 (23:37):
And although I can see the truth behind that, sure,
it's hard because I know I sithere and go.
But that's not true, but I feelthings all the time Right here
and go.
But that's not true.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
but I feel things all the time right and that doesn't
make that feeling valid, right,you know, and that can be
difficult sometimes, becauseyou're you and I don't think,
it's just you, I think andsometimes people filter it
through.
You filter what someone else issaying, through what you think
or feel or how you've thought orfelt, and it's like but I'm not
talking about you and I'm notasking you what you think or
feel.
I'm talking about me and I'mcoming to you about me.
(24:09):
So what you think and feel isirrelevant, because we're
talking about me right now.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
I'm just saying that seems to be like but does that
make sense?
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Like yeah, but when you put it into that context, I
go we're always talking aboutyou, because well, if you think
about it, if you come to me witha concern and I keep talking
about me, how irritated doesthat get you?
You're like, but I'm nottalking about you.
Like we've had thoseconversations where I've had to
keep readjusting myself becauseI'm like trying to talk to you
(24:42):
about what I would do if I like,how I think about something or
how I see something, and you'regoing, but that's not what I'm
talking about.
I'm talking about this and it'sthe same thing, it's just a
different.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
It's the same but different right and I, and I do
think this is why you knowStephen Covey in his book seven
habits, like that's why one ofthe habits is seek first to
understand, then be understoodcorrect, right, like because if
I don't understand where you'recoming from, or I don't
understand what you're trying tosay, and and I'm just so quick,
and and that's the other thing.
Some of it, I do think, is justa genuine personality thing not
(25:16):
personality thing.
I think it's a genuine genderthing.
Yeah.
Um, you know, like I think males, for the most part, are wired,
just hardwired to fix things.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
A hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Real men.
Well, yes, men, okay, not justmales, sorry, I just have to get
that out.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Right, but I don't want to get lost in the woods on
that one, men, and I just think, by nature, in how God created
us, I mean, even when you lookat creation, right, you know,
god puts Adam in the garden andgoes here's a task, go get this
done, go name all the animalsRight, right, um.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
And it's while Adam's doing that that he realizes oh,
like this is the first time wesee not good in scripture right.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
You know all the way through creation up to this
point it's.
You know God created.
It was good.
Right.
And now God looks and goes.
Okay, it's not good for man tobe alone.
Let me make a helper that isfit for him and and I know
there's a lot of ladies outthere that get mad at stuff like
that and and I go.
Some of that is you just don'tunderstand, like what that means
(26:28):
.
Right, Like God's literallysitting here and going.
He can't do this by himself.
Let me give him someone elsethat can help him do this Right
and I think women for the mostpart, are hardwired to be more I
don't want to say like moreemotional and sound like that
(26:49):
stereotypical.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
I think we're more comfortable with expressing
emotion.
I don't think guys don't feelemotion.
I think you guys just keep it alittle.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
But see, and that's what I'm saying, that's not what
I'm talking about, right, likemen are hardwired to fix things.
So you come to me and and youhave an issue.
You, you know, I'm feeling acertain type of way.
Right, the first thing in mymind is I want to make it better
.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Right, I want to fix it which sometimes makes you
gloss over that moment rightright and that and that's what
I'm talking about.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Like, yes, you know, for you it's different, right?
You're not necessarily lookingfor me to fix something no
you're sitting here going hey, Iwant to know you're with me,
that you're going to walk withme through.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
You're going to protect me, that you're going to
be safe, right and and that Ihave that space right um and
that's those are conversationswe've had many times where I
told you I was listening wherewe, where we have gone to one
another and been like I'm notlooking for, I'm not looking for
a conversation, I'm not askingyour advice, I have some things
I need to say.
Get off my chest and then we'regoing to move on.
(27:55):
Now that could be about me.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
But that's something.
That's something and it's notvery new, but that's something.
We had to come to a conclusion.
Right, that would that was anissue.
Yeah, you know, in the firstfive years of our marriage where
I was like I guess I forget howlong we've been together.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
It's not fairly new, right where we.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
We got to a point where I was like, hey look, if
we're gonna do it, let's do itthis way, like come to me and
let me know this up front right,but there's also I know I've
talked to many people that dosomething similar, but they
they're not.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
The other person isn't always on board so that's
something we had to come totogether and go okay.
So now that doesn't mean thereare times that I've not gone to
you, like I've gone to you andsaid something and you're like
fine, we're not gonna talk aboutit, but at some point later we
are going to talk about it likewe have like we have to address
this on a deeper level.
Right, you can say what you haveto say, that's fine.
(28:49):
We won't have to talk about itright now.
But because you know, we'remarried and we have kids and we
have a life and we want to havea successful and we're in
ministry like there's all somany things.
This is an issue that needs tobe addressed, because I know for
me I can say something over and, over and over again, and if
it's not addressed or dealt with, I'm just going to keep
(29:09):
spiraling right, and won't you,too, bless your heart?
Speaker 1 (29:14):
but that's where, like even last week, not last
week, two weeks ago, you know,when we were looking at romans
12, 15, you know, and and againwe'll see it again in romans 12,
18 or 19, I can I forget offthe top of my head, but paul
talks about this like, as far asit depends on you, live
peaceably with all, and you knowwe saw, live in harmony with
(29:36):
one another, right, right, um,and, and I go.
And this is why, if we're basingthings off of anything other
than the, than the bible, likewhatever the latest self-help
fat is, right and and seriously,and I look at it like just look
(29:56):
at eggs right in our lifetimeeggs went from the incredible
edible egg to eggs are the worstthing you can eat because
they're so high in fat andcholesterol, and blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah.
And then another decade passesand it's like, oh, you need to
eat eggs because there's such agood source of protein and good
fats, and you know all of thisand I go when we're basing
(30:21):
things off of things that aren'tscripture.
It's the same process right andand we go, okay, the this, this
month's self-help, self-marriage, whatever fad is this?
And this is what you should bedoing right but I go.
But when we look at scriptureand this is even tying back to
the whole marriage thing youknow, and?
(30:43):
and how public should yourmarriage be?
We see this live in harmonywith each other.
We see this, as far as itdepends on you, live, you know,
peaceably with one another.
Um, yeah, paul's talking aboutus and our relationship with
others in our lives, but he'salso talking about like in your
household, sure, right.
(31:04):
So like, in order for me tolive peaceably with you, I had
to get to that point where Iwent, okay, hold on, she's not
looking for something to befixed right now, she's not
looking for my input right now.
Right, you know.
And so it had to get to a pointwhere I was sitting here going,
all right, hold on, let melisten to what she's actually
(31:25):
saying, right, and we can gofrom there, because sometimes it
is.
And again, I mean, this is whyRomans 12 is huge.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
It's so big.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Right, Because sometimes it's just rejoice with
those who rejoice and weep withthose who weep.
You know, sometimes that'sthat's what you're looking for.
You're just looking for me toyou know, let you lay down on my
chest and and go.
Hey babe, I know, this sucksright now but I'm sorry this is
happening but it's we're.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
You know, we're going to get through it, just like
we've gotten through so manyother things and I think only
and I can only speak from awife's perspective talking about
, but I just want to get it outthere Um, I think there's wisdom
in going to your husband beforeyou go to anybody else about
issues.
I think.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Well, and even even looking at Matthew 18, I think
there's wisdom in going to theperson you have an issue with
before you go to other people.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
I hear what you're saying, but I'm saying, though,
like before I consider talkingto anybody about anything, I go
to you um, and are you talkingabout with an issue with me, or
just an issue in general?
With you or in general,especially when it comes to you.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
I don't think see, and that's that's why I went to
matthew 18, because I thoughtyou were talking about like, if
you had an issue with me, youshould like, like.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
No, but you cut me off.
So I was like I'm going tocircle back to it.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
So I got you.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
So I think there's wisdom in going.
I'm going to talk to my spousewhether it's a problem with him.
I'm not saying, don't go tosomebody wiser than you, someone
that's been married longer.
I'm not saying that that's notappropriate.
I just don't think you shouldgo to anybody and everybody.
(33:08):
So if you're struggling throughsomething, I'm gonna go to you
before I and actually I don't goto anybody else.
So, like, for me it's different.
I don't go to anybody else, Ijust go to you, and I think
there would be a lot healthierconversations in marriages.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Um, if you look at your spouse and go this is my
person like this is who I needto go to 100 like a somebody
like and and you do have otherpeople you go to sure what you
know just like me yes, just likeI have other people that I go
to and and talk to.
I mean, I don't want to callanyone out by name, but like
(33:42):
don't, but we do have otherpeople I guess I have a one or
two people I go to right, andI'm not saying the circle needs
to be huge but what?
Speaker 3 (33:50):
everybody shouldn't have a say so but I think
there's a propensity to.
I'm gonna talk about my problemwith someone and what you end
up doing is just becoming itbecomes a bash session about
your spouse or whatever thesituation is and then it never
gets resolved, and then you'rejust repeating yourself over and
over and over and over to 10different people about the same
(34:11):
problem and you still haven'tgone to your spouse about
whatever the issue but sayingthat's why.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
That's why I was saying Matthew 18, because
whether it's with you or whetherit's with anyone else in my
life, like if I have a problemwith someone, if my brother sins
against me, I should go to thatperson, like that should be the
first conversation I have.
Yeah, it's awkward and it'smessy and sometimes it's not
(34:38):
very fun, but that's that's thefirst person I need to talk to.
If that doesn't work, that'swhen I go seek those wiser.
You know counsels, right, right, those you know maybe it is a
parent, or you know a reallyclose friend that that has been
(34:58):
married longer than you, thatthat that you look at their
marriage and because you've seenso much of it, you can go hey,
that is a marriage I respect.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Right, I trust this.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Then I'm going to go talk to them and then, if that
doesn't work, you know, then,all right, now we, we need to
bring in the big guns.
You know, now, now's, when weneed to start seeking, maybe
professional help, or you knowsomething of that nature, or
your pastor, or you know whoever.
But what you guys and I'm goingto wrap it up with this for
(35:31):
this episode, at least if you,if you appreciated this episode,
like you know, let us know Ifthis is more, you know the
episodes that are going to beable to help you guys, let us
know Like that's what we goingto be able to help you guys, let
us know, like that's what wewant to do.
Yep, but to wrap it, you know,up, and put it in a bow, because
we didn't even get to numberstwo and three, right, no, and I
(36:02):
will say I mean, if you'relooking for a laundry list of
things that I'm frustrated withit's, I mean, honestly, I can't.
This could be a whole separatepodcast, because it would go the
other way too, right, like thereason I didn't go.
Oh, I'm gonna tell you threethings that Debbie does.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
That frustrates me there's not this long.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
I don't know, I don't know if I could because and
because and here's why it's notthat there haven't been things
right like you know there'snothing lingering.
One of the things we do and wedo well is we go?
Okay, there's a problem.
Let's confront the problem.
Right, let's work through theproblem right and then let's
(36:29):
move past the problem.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Yep, I go, because unresolved issue turns into it's
like an infection yes it'll begangrene and you're gonna have
to cut something out yep, and,and so I go some of some of the
times.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
That's what you need to do.
You need to go.
Hey, we got a problem yeah youknow?
That's why they say admittanceis the first step to healing, or
whatever that crap is becausewhat you have in will come out
one way or the other.
It's gonna be so.
If you got a bunch of anger andbitterness because you got a
bunch of unresolved issue,understand that's going to come
out in many different forms andways so there's, and I know we
(37:04):
as we were wrapping this up.
This is what happens when I'mpreaching, by the way I know
okay, I'm ready to close.
Oh, hold on you had lie.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
You giggled when I said this once, but it was.
It's a really good analogy, Ididn't come up with it.
So if somebody bumps into youand you have coffee in your cup
and it spills, whose fault is itthat the coffee spilled?
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Are you asking me?
Speaker 3 (37:24):
The coffee was in the cup already.
It was already full to the top.
So if you bump into somebodyand you already have all this
stuff on the inside, so youbumped into someone, you just,
or they bumped into you, youboth ran into each other.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
You came around the corner, so neither one of you
were paying attention.
Right each other you camearound the corner.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
You were paying attention, right see.
You see this is how ourconversations go, but I go.
It's not your fault, it's not.
There's coffee in the cut,you're.
You're full to the brim already.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
What you have in is going to come out, and it's
going to come out the wrongperson if you don't handle your
business yeah, because I mean,and let's be honest, and again,
this whole nother podcast, ifyou guys are interested, because
there are times I'm angry withso and so, but you're gonna take
the brunt of that anger yeseven though it has nothing to do
with you right but you're gonnado one little thing that any
(38:10):
other day wouldn't be a big deal.
Yeah, it would just be awhatever and I'm gonna let it go
and it's gonna turn into worldwar three, because I'm already
mad at so-and-so.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
So hope you guys learned something on this
episode Hope it was helpful.
I think it is.
So do I?
I mean, that's why we'reputting it out.
But you know, I can only beresponsible for part of that.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
See I can keep going.
We'll do it in the next one.
Keep going.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Sorry, so I could keep going, we'll do it in the
next one.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
Keep going, sorry, so until next week.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
You can always follow us online at mission sentorg.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Facebook, instagram, instagram Um maybe tick tock
soon, I don't know.
No, I just want to see whatyou'd say.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Um, like comment.
Subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe if you're not
subscribed, and share withsomeone you think you know needs
to benefit but until we talkagain.
We love you, we thank you andwe can't do this without you bye
guys.
All right, on this episode, I'm going to do what
very what I assume very few mendo, okay, and I'm going to
actually pick a fight with mywife, like you guys are going to
hear us fight.
I'm not sure I like this helloand welcome to another episode
(00:38):
of faith, family and fishingwhere we are sharing jesus and
strengthening families welcome.
You know how long it took me tocome up with that sharing jesus
you know how long it took me tocome up with that sharing jesus
, strengthening families howlong?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
three months, maybe?
That's ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Well, I was like, okay, we need to like have a
focus for what.
This is sure right, because itis very broad, um, but on the
same hand, you know, I wanted tomake sure again.
What is the point?
Why are we doing this?
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Why are we taking time out of our day, our
schedule, our family, all thethings from fishing, exactly?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
But like you heard in the opening there, Debbie
really never knows what we'regonna do these episodes on no
like she usually finds out maybea couple of hours before the
episode, or if it's sometimes acouple minutes or during the
episode um, it's always fun andsometimes you know it may get to
(01:40):
like maybe I give you a coupleof days if it's something.
I think like, hey, she needs toresearch a lot on this one, but
this one we were driving intothe office this morning and and
Debbie had another appointmentshe had to go to, which I knew
she would be gone for at leastyou know, an hour, hour and a
half, and I was like, okay, here, you know, since we know we're
(02:00):
recording when we come back theafternoon, or not the afternoon,
but late morning, um, here'swhat the episode's gonna be.
I want you to come up withthree things that I do that just
genuinely cut right through you, that just really really work
your nerves and and tick you off.
(02:21):
And, and I wanted to do thisfor a couple of reasons.
Number one we had a whole Idon't want to say an argument,
because it wasn't an argument-conversation a robust
conversation yesterday good wordfor it robust okay um, just
about like what the role?
like?
I made the comment that, as apastor, people should be close
(02:46):
enough to see me argue with you,right, um, in first Corinthians
11, one, paul says this imitateme as I imitate Christ.
Well, if you don't know whatPaul's doing like cause, let's
be honest, right, most people,most people who are a part of a
church, you have two differentpeople.
You have the person you arewhen you're around your church
(03:07):
friends.
Right.
Whether that's at church or orat a church event or something
of that nature.
And then you have the real youand we can argue and say I'm
sorry, that's okay, do?
Speaker 3 (03:20):
you need me to get it .
No, I'll get it.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
And we can argue and we can say that that's not true.
But Sorry.
If that's you, you're a liar.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Right, it's not the real you.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
You know, I think in the decade I've been doing this
in various roles and functions.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
In the decade I've been doing this I think once I'd
asked a person like, as youknow, they're coming in, it's
like, hey, how's it going?
Speaker 1 (03:50):
you know, how are you .
You know that greeting that weall do and everyone knows the
right words, right oh, I'm greatI'm good.
You know, it's been a roughweek.
I'm a little tired, but I'mgood, but I'm good.
You know, I think I've had oneperson that was like oh, I'm
barely holding it together whichthrew you off.
I didn't even know, what to dolike I was like, oh man, um, my
(04:10):
bad, you want to talk, you wantto pray, like how do you want
this to go?
And and it was you know like,and it did.
It threw me off because that'snot the good christian response.
No, but the conversation cameup because of stuff like that,
because I go.
If all you see is this snapshotlike think about social media.
(04:33):
Honestly, right, you'recomparing your worst day to
someone else's filtered best dayright right like they don't go
to vacation in the tropics.
You know the caribbean and it iscaribbean, not caribbean.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Um, in the caribbean, like that's not just someone's
normal tuesday morning right butyou're comparing, they're not
swimming in the waters of borabora just just on a whim like
right I mean some people, somepeople that may be your life
your normal person.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
That just doesn't happen yeah, you may got it like
that, but most people do notmost of your quote unquote
friends on facebook or instagramor wherever.
That's not their every day, butyou're comparing your worst time
to their best time and that'swhat people normally do, right,
you know?
And when we always portrayourselves in that certain light
(05:25):
of I'm good, I got it just theother night, right, you know,
you, you were having a hard timewith some health, uh related
issues and I was like Deb, I getit.
Like you know, I'm self-con.
No, it wasn't even healthrelated.
It was, um, was itself-conscious issues, like.
All I know is my response washow I feel, knowing I'm balding.
(05:49):
It was health related.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
I was like I'm tired of feeling like this.
I'm frustrated, I'm annoyed, Ican't.
There's nothing I do that helpsme.
And then you share with me howfrustrated you are when you look
down in the mirror.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
It was about getting older.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Because I was like you're never going to feel the
way you did at 18.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Right.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
You know, we're not 18 anymore.
Right Like our bodies don'treact.
And that's how.
That's how it came up.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Right.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
And I was telling you on our way back.
No, it was while we were onvacation.
Yeah, I went into one of thebathrooms the beach right and,
uh, you know to to change, itwas a slanted mirror.
Yeah, the mirror slanted like,it was like a 30 degree coming
off the wall, so it was kind oflooking down, um, and you locked
eyes with it.
I'd look down at the sink, youknow, to wash my hands, and I
(06:35):
look like my eyes came up firstand I could see the top of my
scalp and I'm like man, I'mbalding Because if I look
straight on in the mirror, Ionly see the front of my hair
and I got plenty of hair upthere.
But, man, when you see the top,it's like I have a rim and that
was the description I gave you.
(06:56):
It looks like a volcano rightAround.
The outside it's thick, butit's like a big hole in the
middle.
I can't stop it.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
It's worse to you than what it actually is, and
that's where you're like.
How dare you not?
Speaker 1 (07:10):
no, it's bad.
That's why I wear a hat, likeI'm trying to talk myself into.
Could I preach with a hat on?
Speaker 3 (07:16):
hang on.
This is why I tell you whenit's time to cut your hair, but
you don't listen because that'salways been my deal right.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
I knew I was gonna bald right, like it's just
genetics.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Yes, my family both sides mom and dad all the men,
doesn't even matter who it comesfrom.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
It's happening and I was like, just I don't want to
be that guy that looks like he'sholding on longer, but anyway,
so so I share like that was agood conversation so I share all
this with you, and yourresponse to me was but you
always portray yourself like yougot it all together, like
there's nothing you strugglewith, like like you got all of
(07:52):
it and and I was like man that'sright, and what I said was it
shouldn't take me having this abreakdown shouldn't be on my
deathbed right, I shouldn't be,you know, one step away from the
thread breaking for you to belike.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Oh, by the way, I got some struggles too, because it
makes it, you make it, makes youseem unattainable and that's
what we do ultimately.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
When, when we're not sharing those parts of our lives
, when all people know is, oh,you've got it all together right
, you are taking away anyability.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
You have to be there for someone else right like
people don't always know thatyou're an introvert, right like
they.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
It throws them off right and and I'm in the middle,
like I'm not you're anextroverted introvert yeah, I'm
not one of those like hey, we'rejust gonna go live in a cave.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
I mean I would be fine with it.
That's not your goal, right.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
I love people and I love being there to help people.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Just a certain number of people at one time.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yes, but, and that's where that comment yesterday in
that conversation came from likewhere I was like.
People need to see thebrokenness so that they can see
Christ coming through Right Inthe sanctification process of
your life.
They need to understand I don'thave it all together Right, but
(09:20):
this is how Jesus is workingand pruning those areas in my
life to conform me to his image.
Right, which ultimately shouldbe the goal of any disciple or
Christian or however you want tosay it Right.
So I was like how can we dothis in a way that is going to
(09:42):
help people?
That is going to help peopleand I know one of your areas of
discomfort is personal thingsout in public space and I was
like I got it.
What are three areas?
Speaker 3 (09:58):
I have trust issues.
I don't trust anybody.
Actually, I trust probablythree people.
I was about to say am I?
I trust?
Speaker 1 (10:04):
probably three people , am I?
I was about to say, am I one ofthe three?
Speaker 3 (10:07):
And then two more, and that's literally it.
I love everybody, I just don'ttrust everybody.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
I don't know.
I just I can't see how thosethings go hand in hand, Because
in order for me to love you, Ihave to trust that I can be
vulnerable with you.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
I think that's a whole different space.
Trust that I can be vulnerablewith you, I think that's a whole
different space.
I love people that I cannot bevulnerable around because they,
the wretchedness that residesdeep within their soul, is way
too.
It's just way too much.
Now I know that if I sharesomething with them, they'll
potentially use it against me ortry, or you know, share it with
(10:45):
everybody else in the world oruse my vulnerability.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
I only did that once.
I'm not talking about you, soactually I do that every Sunday.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Yeah, when I'm always like, oh gosh, what's he going
to say now, clenching my chest.
Please don't you and JT, youguys give me the most material
to work with.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Thank you, kayla's up there too.
She's getting there.
Gabby's starting she's trailingbehind kayla's really starting
to come into her own, though, um, but so again, like what is it?
Like what's number one?
Like you, sit here and go thisright here.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
This is the thing that so if we're in a
conversation and I go, you knowwhat are you laughing?
Speaker 1 (11:31):
hold on.
Is it my facial expressions?
No, the rolling the eyes those.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Just that's just a.
I think that's just a givenwhat I think any husband and
wife have, that you make thatface one more time.
Um, actually, that's the lowestone.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
But I do want to point out one thing real quick,
before we even jump into that.
You guys hear how we're likelaughing as we're doing this.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
These are real things .
Speaker 1 (11:53):
This is how our arguments go, because I do have
the tendency To just startlaughing.
Usually at something Debbiesays or does, Like yesterday it
was I got to get my eyes on it.
Like we're in the middle ofthis robust conversation, I go.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
I don't know.
I got to see, I got to get myeyes on it.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
And she made that comment and I was like what is
that, like you know, cause wewere talking about a lot of
different scriptures, becausethe and really you were asking
and I'm going to try to rephraseit you tell me if I, you know,
got it right, because that'll atleast show if I do active
listening.
Oh boy, really, what you wereasking was for biblical, for a
(12:35):
biblical understanding of howpublic a pastor's marriage
should be Like.
How much of a pastor's marriageshould other people see?
Should there be things that arekept private, or should it be
just in front of everyone?
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Was that what you were asking?
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Yes, I was asking for biblical context.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
And I was telling you , there's not just like one
verse we could go to.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
What I was saying is give me biblical context, give
me scripture in context thatyour marriage should be on
display right and, and so not apersonal opinion because I go
give.
Don't give me a personalopinion because you're real big
on.
Don't give me your personalopinion so evidence and fact.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Yes, so give me that.
Yes, and, and I was explainingto you like there isn't one
verse that just hey, boom, hereit is.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Right, and you did give me some good verse.
I mean, you gave me goodscripture that shared how to be
more like Christ.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
So, like in our Wednesday night class, we're
doing systematic theology andit's you have to look at
everything from Genesis toRevelation, because stuff
doesn't exist in a vacuum.
You can't just take this onethought and and create a
theology out of it right, if itisn't consistent with the rest
of scripture right and, and so Imean we were covering leviticus
.
We were covering like we wentinto um.
(13:57):
You know those books that mostpeople don't even know are there
.
And at the end you were likeyou've given me a lot to think
about, I gotta get my eyes on it.
And I lost it because I waslike what are we in the?
Speaker 3 (14:18):
50s who talks like that?
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Your wife does.
And then, when I startedlaughing, I think you were like,
okay, it's okay, we can bothstart laughing Right.
I think you were like, okay,it's okay, we can both start
laughing Right.
And my dad told me my whole youknow young life before we got
married Josh, here's the secretto stopping any argument with
your wife.
And for those of you that arelike, oh, just start laughing.
(14:42):
That wasn't his advice.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
That could backfire quickly.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
It has actually for you.
It was not for me because youwere like you've been very mad
where I'm like what?
And he's laughing, yeah but?
But it was sit close to her,grab her hand, look her right in
the eye and go.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Yes, dear oh my gosh and and again.
Terrible advice terrible, thatdoes not start or stop.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
I tried it when we first got married.
It did not work, so number onego.
What is the biggest?
Not my facial expression, notyour face.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
That's your third, that's third, and whatever that
is who you are, you're going todo that forever.
That's fine.
When we're talking and you'reand I go.
You know you do this, blah,blah, blah, blah and it might be
something that I've noticedover the course of sometimes
it's been our whole marriage andit's just really getting to me
and you go that's not true and Igo, but it is because I'm
(15:43):
telling you it's true.
Why are you laughing?
Because you know it's true.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
That's not true.
That's not what happens.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Give me fact, give me evidence, give me.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
And I do do that.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
And you do that Now.
For the most part, I'm okaywith that.
There's a couple of things thatbother me about that One, I
don't take notes.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
I can never.
I never have fact and opiniondebates what I'm feeling, so it
makes me mad.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Because these are things that have happened and
I'm in, I can't Stop it, andwhat happens is Dang it, josh.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
This is what happens.
And then you're like hold on,what was I saying?
So, when I say that Right.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
And then you go.
It must not be important, andto me I think that comes across.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
As arrogant.
We've had this.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
Obviously, we've talked about this.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
We've had this robust conversation a lot let me
finish I am.
This is the other thing, too,that I know.
This is the other thing I knowI do that that really just gets
under your skin is.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
We're having a robust conversation and I'm like
you're playing the conversationfour sentences down, right, yeah
, and I go have the conversationby yourself, because you don't
need me to be here and we'vedone, yeah, and I go have the
conversation by yourself,because you don't need me to be
here and we've done that I'll goto the store, um, because what
it does on a deeper level, itmakes me go.
You're not valuing what I'msaying, um, you're essentially,
(17:24):
in my opinion, calling me a liarand going.
All those things that you seein me as my wife, as the person
that loves me the most, doesn'tmatter.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
I'm your husband.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
As your wife.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yes, but the way I heard it was like you were
calling me your wife and thatwasn't.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
And that irritates me because I think it comes from
again.
It seems to come from a placeof arrogance.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Sometimes, as I look through it deeper, it may come
from a place of Well it'sdefinitely brokenness.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Yeah, and I don't think you mean to come off that
way.
I don't think you mean to comeoff that way.
I just think some of it's adefense mechanism and going.
That's not true.
I'm not like that, because youdo fight.
I do see you fight against somuch of the things that I mean.
You worked on a lot over thecourse of our marriage, like
(18:22):
you've changed a lot, you'vedone a lot, you've grown
exponentially in ways that Ithink people that knew you 20
years ago would have been likeJosh, who yeah.
You know.
So I've seen that growth.
So I think, and it could beagain from a place of brokenness
, maybe a sore wound that's nothealed yet, going whoa, whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
You're coming at me sideways and I think and I could
be wrong, you could you'regetting defensive and then it
misses where I'm coming from so,and and the one thing I want to
point out before I even jumpinto any kind of response is um,
I like how you said, I don'twrite stuff down, you know,
(19:04):
because, again, if we'refollowing scripture and we're
sitting here going, this is whatlove is.
And in first corinthians, 13,paul, that that's verb, almost
verbatim what he says.
Love keeps no record ofwrongdoing right some of
problems that that especially inin marriage counseling that I
see is hold on.
I will say we have kept noteson this.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Hold on.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
But we did that on purpose, like that was something
we discussed and went.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Wait, the first time I did not expect you.
I told you to write it down.
And then got mad because Iwrote it down and then he
brought out his phone and openedup his notes and it was like
are you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (19:48):
So I was like this is a no-win situation.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
That started a whole other argument, I'm sorry, a
whole other robust conversation.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
But I go that was funny.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
It wasn't funny at the time.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Yes, we don't keep record of wrongdoing.
In other words, if you'reholding on to that, pardon me.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
If you're holding on, to that, pardon me if you're
holding onto all of that and itjust becomes a tit for tat
you're not going to be gainingany ground in that conversation
and there are sometimes thatdoes happen and I think we need
to recognize arrogance sometimes.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
For me, and just in, in my perspective of this um,
it's not a defense mechanism,like it's not.
Okay, you said something aboutme, so'm gonna buck up, right,
the.
The reason I go okay, give mean example, give me evidence,
give me you know something ofthat nature is you know facts
(20:41):
and and stuff like that is moreso because I go, I want to pull
feeling out of it.
Right, because feelings and andI know people really don't know
where I stand on feelings-because, half the people that
know me are like you're dead onthe inside and the other half of
people know I'm a verypassionate person and I feel
(21:03):
things very different, or deeplyright
but.
But I'm not like hinged on myfeeling, right, um, because
feelings are not right andthey're not wrong.
They they just are.
But when I view things throughfeeling opposed to when I view
things through truth and I thinkyou have to have both right
(21:25):
feelings are how you like.
Feelings are what you use tolive your life.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Right, Like you might have a gut feeling about
something that keeps you safe.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Even looking at it in the confines of our marriage,
right?
If I didn't feel things for youthen you would just be a
roommate.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
You know, so you need that part of it.
But to me truth will alwaystrump feeling.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Because that part of it.
But to me, truth will alwaystrump feeling, right?
Um, because a lot of times Imay not feel a certain kind of
way, but that doesn't mean Idon't need to act a certain kind
of way because of the fact thatI am your husband, you know.
So when I go, okay, like youbring up whatever right, like
you're so mean to me, becausethat's, that's a robust
conversation we've had before.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Because, because I haven't said you're mean to me.
I've said you're mean right butnot like you're coming at me
attacking me no mean, I don'twant people to think you're just
like you're a mean one.
Yeah, no I just start, josh.
It'll make all the sense whenyou come dressed.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
But anyway, no, no, no, no.
But like, because I viewfeeling in truth the way I view
feeling in truth, I can come offcold and and a lot of times
when, when going back to thewhole mean thing, I don't think
you're referring like mean, Ithink it's more along the lines
of you're very cold.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Um, because, like, when we're in the middle of a
robust conversation, I'm notsitting there and and you know,
I've heard so many, you knowother pastors that that I
genuinely look up to that thathave said, like, if she's, um, I
know joe b martin, he, he justdid a men's or I think it was a
men's conference.
I only saw the youtube thing forit um, but one of the things he
(23:14):
was saying is, when your wifecomes to you with feelings, you
have to deal with her withfeeling, um, you know, and, and,
and I get that right, like whenyou're coming at me with I feel
I can't come back with.
Well, the truth is Right.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Because it completely cuts my feet out from under me
and goes it doesn't matter whatyou're feeling, your feeling is
very invalid, right?
Speaker 1 (23:37):
And although I can see the truth behind that, sure,
it's hard because I know I sithere and go.
But that's not true, but I feelthings all the time Right here
and go.
But that's not true.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
but I feel things all the time right and that doesn't
make that feeling valid, right,you know, and that can be
difficult sometimes, becauseyou're you and I don't think,
it's just you, I think andsometimes people filter it
through.
You filter what someone else issaying, through what you think
or feel or how you've thought orfelt, and it's like but I'm not
talking about you and I'm notasking you what you think or
feel.
I'm talking about me and I'mcoming to you about me.
(24:09):
So what you think and feel isirrelevant, because we're
talking about me right now.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
I'm just saying that seems to be like but does that
make sense?
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Like yeah, but when you put it into that context, I
go we're always talking aboutyou, because well, if you think
about it, if you come to me witha concern and I keep talking
about me, how irritated doesthat get you?
You're like, but I'm nottalking about you.
Like we've had thoseconversations where I've had to
keep readjusting myself becauseI'm like trying to talk to you
(24:42):
about what I would do if I like,how I think about something or
how I see something, and you'regoing, but that's not what I'm
talking about.
I'm talking about this and it'sthe same thing, it's just a
different.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
It's the same but different right and I, and I do
think this is why you knowStephen Covey in his book seven
habits, like that's why one ofthe habits is seek first to
understand, then be understoodcorrect, right, like because if
I don't understand where you'recoming from, or I don't
understand what you're trying tosay, and and I'm just so quick,
and and that's the other thing.
Some of it, I do think, is justa genuine personality thing not
(25:16):
personality thing.
I think it's a genuine genderthing.
Yeah.
Um, you know, like I think males, for the most part, are wired,
just hardwired to fix things.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
A hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Real men.
Well, yes, men, okay, not justmales, sorry, I just have to get
that out.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Right, but I don't want to get lost in the woods on
that one, men, and I just think, by nature, in how God created
us, I mean, even when you lookat creation, right, you know,
god puts Adam in the garden andgoes here's a task, go get this
done, go name all the animalsRight, right, um.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
And it's while Adam's doing that that he realizes oh,
like this is the first time wesee not good in scripture right.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
You know all the way through creation up to this
point it's.
You know God created.
It was good.
Right.
And now God looks and goes.
Okay, it's not good for man tobe alone.
Let me make a helper that isfit for him and and I know
there's a lot of ladies outthere that get mad at stuff like
that and and I go.
Some of that is you just don'tunderstand, like what that means
(26:28):
.
Right, Like God's literallysitting here and going.
He can't do this by himself.
Let me give him someone elsethat can help him do this Right
and I think women for the mostpart, are hardwired to be more I
don't want to say like moreemotional and sound like that
(26:49):
stereotypical.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
I think we're more comfortable with expressing
emotion.
I don't think guys don't feelemotion.
I think you guys just keep it alittle.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
But see, and that's what I'm saying, that's not what
I'm talking about, right, likemen are hardwired to fix things.
So you come to me and and youhave an issue.
You, you know, I'm feeling acertain type of way.
Right, the first thing in mymind is I want to make it better
.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Right, I want to fix it which sometimes makes you
gloss over that moment rightright and that and that's what
I'm talking about.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Like, yes, you know, for you it's different, right?
You're not necessarily lookingfor me to fix something no
you're sitting here going hey, Iwant to know you're with me,
that you're going to walk withme through.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
You're going to protect me, that you're going to
be safe, right and and that Ihave that space right um and
that's those are conversationswe've had many times where I
told you I was listening wherewe, where we have gone to one
another and been like I'm notlooking for, I'm not looking for
a conversation, I'm not askingyour advice, I have some things
I need to say.
Get off my chest and then we'regoing to move on.
(27:55):
Now that could be about me.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
But that's something.
That's something and it's notvery new, but that's something.
We had to come to a conclusion.
Right, that would that was anissue.
Yeah, you know, in the firstfive years of our marriage where
I was like I guess I forget howlong we've been together.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
It's not fairly new, right where we.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
We got to a point where I was like, hey look, if
we're gonna do it, let's do itthis way, like come to me and
let me know this up front right,but there's also I know I've
talked to many people that dosomething similar, but they
they're not.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
The other person isn't always on board so that's
something we had to come totogether and go okay.
So now that doesn't mean thereare times that I've not gone to
you, like I've gone to you andsaid something and you're like
fine, we're not gonna talk aboutit, but at some point later we
are going to talk about it likewe have like we have to address
this on a deeper level.
Right, you can say what you haveto say, that's fine.
(28:49):
We won't have to talk about itright now.
But because you know, we'remarried and we have kids and we
have a life and we want to havea successful and we're in
ministry like there's all somany things.
This is an issue that needs tobe addressed, because I know for
me I can say something over and, over and over again, and if
it's not addressed or dealt with, I'm just going to keep
(29:09):
spiraling right, and won't you,too, bless your heart?
Speaker 1 (29:14):
but that's where, like even last week, not last
week, two weeks ago, you know,when we were looking at romans
12, 15, you know, and and againwe'll see it again in romans 12,
18 or 19, I can I forget offthe top of my head, but paul
talks about this like, as far asit depends on you, live
peaceably with all, and you knowwe saw, live in harmony with
(29:36):
one another, right, right, um,and, and I go.
And this is why, if we're basingthings off of anything other
than the, than the bible, likewhatever the latest self-help
fat is, right and and seriously,and I look at it like just look
(29:56):
at eggs right in our lifetimeeggs went from the incredible
edible egg to eggs are the worstthing you can eat because
they're so high in fat andcholesterol, and blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah.
And then another decade passesand it's like, oh, you need to
eat eggs because there's such agood source of protein and good
fats, and you know all of thisand I go when we're basing
(30:21):
things off of things that aren'tscripture.
It's the same process right andand we go, okay, the this, this
month's self-help, self-marriage, whatever fad is this?
And this is what you should bedoing right but I go.
But when we look at scriptureand this is even tying back to
the whole marriage thing youknow, and?
(30:43):
and how public should yourmarriage be?
We see this live in harmonywith each other.
We see this, as far as itdepends on you, live, you know,
peaceably with one another.
Um, yeah, paul's talking aboutus and our relationship with
others in our lives, but he'salso talking about like in your
household, sure, right.
(31:04):
So like, in order for me tolive peaceably with you, I had
to get to that point where Iwent, okay, hold on, she's not
looking for something to befixed right now, she's not
looking for my input right now.
Right, you know.
And so it had to get to a pointwhere I was sitting here going,
all right, hold on, let melisten to what she's actually
(31:25):
saying, right, and we can gofrom there, because sometimes it
is.
And again, I mean, this is whyRomans 12 is huge.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
It's so big.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Right, Because sometimes it's just rejoice with
those who rejoice and weep withthose who weep.
You know, sometimes that'sthat's what you're looking for.
You're just looking for me toyou know, let you lay down on my
chest and and go.
Hey babe, I know, this sucksright now but I'm sorry this is
happening but it's we're.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
You know, we're going to get through it, just like
we've gotten through so manyother things and I think only
and I can only speak from awife's perspective talking about
, but I just want to get it outthere Um, I think there's wisdom
in going to your husband beforeyou go to anybody else about
issues.
I think.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Well, and even even looking at Matthew 18, I think
there's wisdom in going to theperson you have an issue with
before you go to other people.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
I hear what you're saying, but I'm saying, though,
like before I consider talkingto anybody about anything, I go
to you um, and are you talkingabout with an issue with me, or
just an issue in general?
With you or in general,especially when it comes to you.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
I don't think see, and that's that's why I went to
matthew 18, because I thoughtyou were talking about like, if
you had an issue with me, youshould like, like.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
No, but you cut me off.
So I was like I'm going tocircle back to it.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
So I got you.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
So I think there's wisdom in going.
I'm going to talk to my spousewhether it's a problem with him.
I'm not saying, don't go tosomebody wiser than you, someone
that's been married longer.
I'm not saying that that's notappropriate.
I just don't think you shouldgo to anybody and everybody.
(33:08):
So if you're struggling throughsomething, I'm gonna go to you
before I and actually I don't goto anybody else.
So, like, for me it's different.
I don't go to anybody else, Ijust go to you, and I think
there would be a lot healthierconversations in marriages.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Um, if you look at your spouse and go this is my
person like this is who I needto go to 100 like a somebody
like and and you do have otherpeople you go to sure what you
know just like me yes, just likeI have other people that I go
to and and talk to.
I mean, I don't want to callanyone out by name, but like
(33:42):
don't, but we do have otherpeople I guess I have a one or
two people I go to right, andI'm not saying the circle needs
to be huge but what?
Speaker 3 (33:50):
everybody shouldn't have a say so but I think
there's a propensity to.
I'm gonna talk about my problemwith someone and what you end
up doing is just becoming itbecomes a bash session about
your spouse or whatever thesituation is and then it never
gets resolved, and then you'rejust repeating yourself over and
over and over and over to 10different people about the same
(34:11):
problem and you still haven'tgone to your spouse about
whatever the issue but sayingthat's why.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
That's why I was saying Matthew 18, because
whether it's with you or whetherit's with anyone else in my
life, like if I have a problemwith someone, if my brother sins
against me, I should go to thatperson, like that should be the
first conversation I have.
Yeah, it's awkward and it'smessy and sometimes it's not
(34:38):
very fun, but that's that's thefirst person I need to talk to.
If that doesn't work, that'swhen I go seek those wiser.
You know counsels, right, right, those you know maybe it is a
parent, or you know a reallyclose friend that that has been
(34:58):
married longer than you, thatthat that you look at their
marriage and because you've seenso much of it, you can go hey,
that is a marriage I respect.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Right, I trust this.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Then I'm going to go talk to them and then, if that
doesn't work, you know, then,all right, now we, we need to
bring in the big guns.
You know, now, now's, when weneed to start seeking, maybe
professional help, or you knowsomething of that nature, or
your pastor, or you know whoever.
But what you guys and I'm goingto wrap it up with this for
(35:31):
this episode, at least if you,if you appreciated this episode,
like you know, let us know Ifthis is more, you know the
episodes that are going to beable to help you guys, let us
know Like that's what we goingto be able to help you guys, let
us know, like that's what wewant to do.
Yep, but to wrap it, you know,up, and put it in a bow, because
we didn't even get to numberstwo and three, right, no, and I
(36:02):
will say I mean, if you'relooking for a laundry list of
things that I'm frustrated withit's, I mean, honestly, I can't.
This could be a whole separatepodcast, because it would go the
other way too, right, like thereason I didn't go.
Oh, I'm gonna tell you threethings that Debbie does.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
That frustrates me there's not this long.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
I don't know, I don't know if I could because and
because and here's why it's notthat there haven't been things
right like you know there'snothing lingering.
One of the things we do and wedo well is we go?
Okay, there's a problem.
Let's confront the problem.
Right, let's work through theproblem right and then let's
(36:29):
move past the problem.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Yep, I go, because unresolved issue turns into it's
like an infection yes it'll begangrene and you're gonna have
to cut something out yep, and,and so I go some of some of the
times.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
That's what you need to do.
You need to go.
Hey, we got a problem yeah youknow?
That's why they say admittanceis the first step to healing, or
whatever that crap is becausewhat you have in will come out
one way or the other.
It's gonna be so.
If you got a bunch of anger andbitterness because you got a
bunch of unresolved issue,understand that's going to come
out in many different forms andways so there's, and I know we
(37:04):
as we were wrapping this up.
This is what happens when I'mpreaching, by the way I know
okay, I'm ready to close.
Oh, hold on you had lie.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
You giggled when I said this once, but it was.
It's a really good analogy, Ididn't come up with it.
So if somebody bumps into youand you have coffee in your cup
and it spills, whose fault is itthat the coffee spilled?
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Are you asking me?
Speaker 3 (37:24):
The coffee was in the cup already.
It was already full to the top.
So if you bump into somebodyand you already have all this
stuff on the inside, so youbumped into someone, you just,
or they bumped into you, youboth ran into each other.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
You came around the corner, so neither one of you
were paying attention.
Right each other you camearound the corner.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
You were paying attention, right see.
You see this is how ourconversations go, but I go.
It's not your fault, it's not.
There's coffee in the cut,you're.
You're full to the brim already.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
What you have in is going to come out, and it's
going to come out the wrongperson if you don't handle your
business yeah, because I mean,and let's be honest, and again,
this whole nother podcast, ifyou guys are interested, because
there are times I'm angry withso and so, but you're gonna take
the brunt of that anger yeseven though it has nothing to do
with you right but you're gonnado one little thing that any
(38:10):
other day wouldn't be a big deal.
Yeah, it would just be awhatever and I'm gonna let it go
and it's gonna turn into worldwar three, because I'm already
mad at so-and-so.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
So hope you guys learned something on this
episode Hope it was helpful.
I think it is.
So do I?
I mean, that's why we'reputting it out.
But you know, I can only beresponsible for part of that.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
See I can keep going.
We'll do it in the next one.
Keep going.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Sorry, so I could keep going, we'll do it in the
next one.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
Keep going, sorry, so until next week.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
You can always follow us online at mission sentorg.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Facebook, instagram, instagram Um maybe tick tock
soon, I don't know.
No, I just want to see whatyou'd say.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Um, like comment.
Subscribe, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe if you're not
subscribed, and share withsomeone you think you know needs
to benefit but until we talkagain.
We love you, we thank you andwe can't do this without you bye
guys.
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