April 7, 2025 • 42 mins
Most of us view our income as God’s primary way of providing for us—and then, almost as an afterthought, we consider giving. But what if Scripture teaches the opposite? On today's Faith & Finance Live, Rob West will welcome Paul David Tripp to take a closer look at our theology of money. Then Rob will answer your questions on various financial topics.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:08):
And he died for all that. Those who live might
no longer live for themselves, but for him who for
their sake died and was raised. Second Corinthians 515. I
am Rob West. Most of us view our income as
God's primary way of providing for us. And then, almost
as an afterthought, we consider giving. But what if Scripture
teaches the opposite? Paul David Tripp is here to flip
(00:31):
our theology of money upside down. And then it's on
to your calls at 800 525 7000. That's 805, two
five 7000. This is faith in finance. Live biblical wisdom
for your financial decisions. Well, our guest, Paul David Tripp,
(00:52):
is a pastor, author, and speaker who's written more than
30 books and videos on Christian living. His passion is
connecting the transforming power of Christ to everyday life. He's
a good friend of ours here at Faith five. Paul,
it's great to have you back on the program.
S2 (01:07):
It's good to be with you.
S1 (01:09):
Paul. Uh, you have a really insightful blog post at
Paul Trip.com. It's titled Is Our Theology of Money Upside Down?
And boy, it really hits to the heart of what
we do here at Faith five, because our vision is
that all Christians would see God as their ultimate treasure,
which really aligns with this idea. I'd love for you
to just explain this idea of the blog for us.
S2 (01:32):
I mean, I can explain this idea in two words.
When we think of money, we think God gave us
money so we could live. Yeah, he's actually given us
money so we could give. And that flipped will transform
the way you think about money and use the money
(01:54):
that God has given you.
S1 (01:56):
You know, it's a game changer of an idea. And,
you know, we start with this idea that God owns
everything and we are his household managers of what he
has entrusted to us. So we own nothing, but we
have stewardship responsibilities. Money is a good gift from God,
and it's okay to enjoy and to provide. But you're
proposing that's not the primary objective. Unpack that theology of
(02:20):
money that you're articulating from God's Word.
S2 (02:23):
Well, the Bible is the world's greatest generosity story. Yeah, literally,
the display of God's generosity is spread across every part
of Scripture, maybe captured by the nine words of John
316 For God so loved the world that he gave.
(02:44):
We worship a generously, lavishly giving God and money is
his means of inviting us to join him in his
generosity mission on Earth. That's that's the theology of money.
And and it's rooted in the fact that God is
(03:08):
the one who allocates money to us. My money is
not just the result of my gifts and my hard work. Um,
Jeremiah 27 says, it is by my great power and
my outstretched arm that I made the earth and the
men and animals that are in it, and I give
(03:28):
it to whomever it seems right to me. So you
start with the fact that God has allocated whatever funds
I have, and he's done that for his purpose.
S1 (03:44):
Mhm. And so perhaps, Paul, then the different question we
should ask is not how much should I give but
how much should I keep.
S2 (03:52):
Well that's exactly right. Because that's that's the flip. If
my primary purpose of my money is generosity, then rather
than how much should I give to God? It's how
little should I keep for myself so I can join
God in this glorious mission of generosity?
S1 (04:12):
Wow. That's powerful. So therefore, we live in the tension
of this. And I think that's a good thing, because
that involves wrestling with the Lord and really a posture
of prayer and open handedness. Isn't that right?
S2 (04:26):
Well, it's rooted in trusting that God will fulfill his
promise and he will provide.
S1 (04:31):
Yeah.
S2 (04:31):
If you don't trust in God as a provider, you're
going to take provision as your main job. And we're
endless vats of need and need will never end, and
there'll be very little that's left over.
S1 (04:46):
Incredible. Well, we're talking today with Paul David Tripp. He's
the author of the book Redeeming Money. Folks, if you
haven't read it, you need to pick up a copy today.
Redeeming Money how God Reveals and Reorients our hearts. We're
talking a theology of money today, and perhaps we need
to flip our thinking about money upside down. We'll continue
(05:07):
to unpack this just around the corner, including the practical
implications for our money management when we embrace this big idea.
I'm Rob West, he's Paul David Tripp back with more
faith in finance right after this. Stick around. Great to
(05:33):
have you with us today on Faith and Finance Live.
We're joined today by our good friend Paul David Tripp.
He's a pastor, author, and speaker. Uh, if you haven't
read a copy of Redeeming Money How God Reveals and
Reorients Our Hearts. Pick it up today. It's a game changer.
It's been, uh, really instrumental in my own development of
a theology of money, and that's what we're talking about today.
(05:55):
Here's the question is your theology of money upside down? And, Paul,
you challenged us before the break with this idea that
the real idea for why God entrusts to us what
he does is not so we can live on it.
It's first so we can give. And I like to
think we're most like God when we're giving because, as
you point out, he's the ultimate giver, isn't he?
S3 (06:17):
Yeah.
S2 (06:18):
It's again, the story of the Bible is just mind
blowing generosity of God on on every page. Um, and
so money is God's means of welcome us into this
mission of generosity on earth.
S1 (06:37):
Mhm. So how do you counsel folks that approach you
on how much is appropriate for their lifestyle? What counsel
would you give on wrestling through that?
S2 (06:47):
Well, we get into the issue of money management. And again,
you have to start with biblical values. So is money
management important? Absolutely it is. Yeah. Is being a good
steward of my money important? Absolutely it is. But not
so I could have a better lifestyle or so I
(07:11):
could have a bigger retirement. But. So I am more
able to be generous, as God has called me to. Uh,
when you're sloppy with money, then there's all kinds of waste.
There's all kinds of needless expenditures. There's all kinds of
emotional spending. Uh, and that gets in the way of
(07:34):
your ability to be part of this generosity mission.
S1 (07:39):
Mhm. And Paul, as you pointed out before the break,
it really starts with this idea of understanding where our
money comes from. Because like the parable of the rich fool.
You know, he said the words I and my like
nine times in that short story, essentially taking credit for
what he had received. And really that, you know, that's
(08:01):
a misunderstanding of even the power to get wealth, which
we know from Scripture, comes from God, right?
S2 (08:07):
Well, there's so much pride in acquisition. Yeah. That passage
that I read in Jeremiah 27 five in the last
segment just decimates because God says, I made it. It
all belongs to me, and I give it to whomever
I choose. So I have what I have because of
(08:28):
divine choice.
S1 (08:30):
Yeah.
S2 (08:30):
And all the gifts, all the opportunities, all the experiences.
They're all part of God's plan to give me what
I have.
S1 (08:40):
Mhm. Paul, we like to say money issues are hard issues.
If Jesus of course said where your treasure is, there
your heart will be also. So we know our heart
follows our money. And frankly, it's a privilege to be
able to give to God's activity. I mean, he doesn't
need us, but he allows us to participate, doesn't he?
S2 (09:00):
Yes. And I want to comment on what you just said.
Here's the way I think of it. Your wallet will
only ever go where your heart has already gone. If
you can keep that in your mind. My money will
only ever go where my heart has already gone. And so, uh,
(09:23):
change is not first a matter of budget. It's a
matter of the allegiance, the loyalty, the love of my heart.
S1 (09:32):
Mm. Yeah. And it really comes down to what is
your ultimate treasure. You know, I mentioned the parable of
the rich fool, and we see that profound idea right
at the end of the story after he's called a fool.
we see it was because he was not rich toward God.
What does that mean? Paul, what does it look like
to live rich toward God?
S2 (09:53):
It means I'm. I wake up every morning and I
can't believe that I am a child of God. That
God says to me because I'm his child, he will
give me everything I need for life and godliness. Bill
gates is rich, but he doesn't have everything. God says,
(10:16):
I'll get everything I need for life and godliness. So
I don't wake up feeling poor and needy and looking
around me for satisfaction. I get my satisfaction vertically. Yeah,
I'm not shopping for it horizontally. So much of the
(10:38):
way we waste money is we're searching for ways to
satisfy our hearts Arts and money will never satisfy your heart.
S1 (10:47):
Yes. Yeah. We just have to look around and see
plenty of people who have plenty of money that are unsatisfied,
the late Tim Keller said. Money is the most common
counterfeit God. He did every sin confessed in his office,
save one. And it's the sin of greed. You know,
we can attempt to redeem greed in the name of
the American dream if we're not careful, can't we?
S2 (11:09):
Yeah, that's that's exactly right. Uh, and that's another counterfeit theology.
S1 (11:16):
Paul, as we think about this topic and then how
we're to live, what would you say to that young person,
perhaps that newly married couple that's just starting out how
they can resist what I'll call affluenza? This, this natural
gravitation toward our level of spending always rising to our
level of income. What does that look like?
S2 (11:37):
Well, if I could refer you to a passage, one
of the passages that was transformational for me was Ephesians 428.
It says, let the thief steal no longer, but rather
let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands.
Now you would think that Paul would say next, so
(11:58):
he has enough to live on. Yes, but what he
says is so that he may have something to share
with anyone in need. Put that verse on the mirror
that you look at every morning.
S1 (12:11):
Wow.
S2 (12:11):
And remember that the labor of your hands isn't first
for you. It's first for someone else.
S1 (12:21):
Wow.
S2 (12:22):
And just as God expended his lavish goodness to give, give,
give to us, God says, expend your labor so that
you have the wherewithal to give to others. Start there.
S1 (12:39):
Yes, Paul, we've obviously got to make lifestyle decisions and
I want to finish here today. We've got just a
minute left. What does it look like then to settle
into an appropriate lifestyle that you believe is God honoring and,
and still reflects a proper theology of money that you've articulated?
S2 (12:57):
Well, I think the two things we do is we set, uh,
places that we are always going to give. Uh, that's
that's first we make those decisions first, and then we
are always looking for needs that come up that we
(13:17):
can give to. That means we have to have the
wherewithal to do that.
S1 (13:22):
Yes.
S2 (13:23):
So we're not starting with our needs.
S1 (13:26):
Boy, that is a big idea and a game changer
when it comes to our money management. The idea that
God would be your ultimate treasure and money, a tool
to accomplish God's purposes, and perhaps the primary reason for
your wealth is so you can give Paul thanks for
being here today.
S2 (13:42):
You're welcome. Thank you.
S1 (13:44):
That's pastor, author and speaker Paul David Tripp. You'll find
a wealth of insightful content to help you connect the
transforming power of Jesus to your daily life at Paul Tripp.
By the way, be sure to check out his book,
Redeeming Money How God Reveals and Reorients Our Hearts Out
of Nowhere. After all of his books on Christian living
(14:05):
and parenting and so many other topics, he came out
with a money book. And wouldn't you know, it was incredible.
It was something I just thoroughly enjoyed reading. And I
know you will as well. All right, a quick break
and then back with your questions. The number 800 525 7000.
We'll be right back.
S4 (14:32):
The opinions offered during this program represent the personal or
professional opinions of the participants given for informational purposes only.
Any information provided is not intended to replace advice from
a financial, medical, legal or other professional who understands your
specific situation.
S1 (14:56):
Hey, thanks for joining us today on Faith and finance
live here on Moody Radio. I'm Rob West. Boy, a
treat to have Paul David Tripp with us today. That book,
Redeeming Money has been a game changer for me. Pick
it up wherever you buy books. Uh, so thankful for
his insights around what, uh, really can be called an
upside down theology of money. You know, if we take
our cues from this world, we can completely miss God's
(15:20):
design for our role as faithful stewards. And I appreciate, uh,
Paul Tripp for leaning into that. Well, a lot going
on in the markets today, as you might imagine. Uh,
the Dow Jones, uh, off 350 points, which was a
lot better than where we started the day. As you
might have seen over the weekend, there was a lot
of talk about today being a Black Monday of sorts.
(15:43):
Following the big sell off late last week post Rose
Garden reciprocal tariff event. We thought today might be that
another that second or third big leg down, perhaps taking
us into bear market territory. Uh, it did start off
down 1500 points on the Dow. Interestingly, for a brief
(16:04):
moment this morning, we had about a 2000 point swing
where we went from down about 1500 to up 600 points.
On news that came out during the day that President
Trump was considering pausing tariffs for 90 days on all
countries except China. Well, on that news that was supposedly
leaked out, the market surged. Well, it was about, uh,
(16:27):
ten minutes later that, uh, the press secretary confirmed that. No,
that was fake news. That was not true. It was
not on the table at all. And the market quickly
turned back down. However, where we finished the day, you
might say, well, we'll take it less than 1% down
on the Dow Jones, about a quarter of a point
down on the S&P 500. The Nasdaq actually finishing the
(16:49):
day barely positive. This is all of course, just more
fallout from the announcement in the Rose garden last week
of what President Trump called Liberation Day. The reciprocal tariffs,
you might say, well, he's been talking about this for
40 years because there is speeches he gave literally 40
years ago talking about the importance of tariffs and the
(17:11):
fact that there was not a level playing field and
the US had been taken advantage of for a long time.
And then he talked about it during the campaign, and
then he talked about it again post election. So why
wasn't it all baked into the markets? Well, I think
most economists feel like that. What was announced last week
on the 2nd of April went well beyond what they
(17:35):
were expecting. The formula that they used looked at not
only the monetary tariffs that each country was imposing on
US goods when they came into their countries, but other
mechanisms like the VAT tax and even IP theft and
trade imbalances. And when you put all that together, we
ended up with tariffs that were much higher than the
market anticipated. That uncertainty on top of now a shift
(17:59):
toward a possible recession, which many economists were now calling for,
caused that massive sell off last Thursday and Friday. That
has continued in part today, although again, despite what happened
in Asia and Europe overnight last night, we fared pretty
well for all intents and purposes. Where are we headed
(18:20):
from here? Well, the big question is, you know, are
these tariffs something that's going that are going to be
with us for a while? Because on one hand, the
president has been talking about all of the revenues that
we're going to be receiving and have actually already started
receiving with the tariffs coming into the US. And although
that generates a lot of revenues, hundreds of billions of
(18:43):
dollars for the United States and could even give further
incentive for more tax cuts on the part of Congress
if this offset the cost of that on top of
lower energy, because oil has been falling on top of
lower mortgage rates, because the Treasury has been falling in
terms of the yield, is that the long term play?
And if so, the prospect of a recession rises and
(19:06):
the prospect of what's called stagflation, where you have rising
prices and low or no growth. And so that's a concern.
And that's really been the big, uh, you know, reason
for the market, uh, moving down so significantly, on the
other hand, is it really the art of the deal,
the president's book. And and were those higher than expected
tariffs last week a negotiating tactic to get these now
(19:30):
50 plus countries that have reached out, including Vietnam, including
the European Union, to negotiate something that the president feels
like is more acceptable. And then the tariffs would be
negotiated away. Well, if so, the market has already indicated
it would skyrocket. So there's a lot that remains to
be seen. And here's the big idea I think for
(19:52):
us is, number one, financially speaking, we need to stay
the course. You know, we talk about investing not being
something we do for a day or a quarter or
a year. It's long term. And so if we were
invested appropriately for our age and risk tolerance, then we
should be able to stress test the downside. That was
that would be commensurate to the portfolio we have. So
(20:14):
with a fully invested portfolio, 100% stocks, I would say
you should be able to be able to weather a 30%
downward move and feel like you'd be comfortable not selling
and waiting for it to come back. Which, by the way,
it always has, despite every major event we've had here
(20:35):
in the United States. And if that's the case, then
you're in good shape. You wait it out. And if
you're approaching retirement, well, you're maybe in a 60 over
40 portfolio. And you know, when the market's down 20,
maybe you're down 7% or eight. And again, you'd wait
it out because you have 6 to 12 months worth
of income that you could rely on. Well, that's the
way we should be investing for the long haul. Not
(20:57):
reacting to the emotional moves of the of the market,
especially with you got incredible volatility like we have now.
I mean, keep in mind last Friday was there was
more shares of stock traded than ever before in the
history of the stock market. That's a lot of volatility.
You know, the other thing I think we need to
look at is we need to check our hearts. And
(21:18):
we need to say is there something I need to
pay attention to. Does my response to this reveal something
about misplaced trust in my life, and I'm talking to
myself as well, because of the things of this world
are not where we need to have our hope. We
need to have our hope fixated on our identity in Christ,
the imperishable inheritance we've been given, and ultimately live out
(21:42):
that eternal perspective. So let's think about that. I'll do
that as well. Make it a matter of prayer. Stay
the long game here in the investing world. We'll be
right back. Thanks for joining us today on Faith and
(22:02):
Finance Live. I'm Rob West. Coming up in our final segment.
Bob Dole stops by. So that'll be our next chance
to get Bob's thinking on the markets, especially on the
heels of of last week. But let's get to the phones.
So we've got several lines holding and we're going to
begin in Fort Lauderdale today. Hi, Lewis. Go ahead.
S5 (22:20):
Hi, Rob. Good afternoon. Thanks for taking my call. Rob
I'm calling on behalf of my niece. She's in Georgia.
She went to the car lot to make her first
purchase of a vehicle. She's 24 years old, and we're
trying to find a way to get her out of
this contract. It's a contract she can't afford. They sold
her a 22 Toyota Camry for $28,000. 25% interest on
(22:46):
a 72 month payment. Uh, at $710 a month, she's paying.
We'll be paying $410 a month for insurance. So, um,
I wasn't there to go to the lot with her.
She made this decision and made this mistake. We're trying
to see how we can get her out of this.
Or give the car back. Or what can we do
(23:08):
other than what we've already thought about doing?
S1 (23:11):
Oh, Louis, I'm so sorry to hear that. Boy, that
is really tough. And, uh, you know, should be considered
usury as far as I'm concerned. Uh, obviously, usury doesn't
exist anymore. It's now been replaced with truth and lending.
So technically, as long as they disclosed her what they're
going to charge her, you know, they can get away
with it. Even though I think this is a horrible. Um,
(23:33):
so where what is her financial position right now? I mean,
if she could refinance this, and I realize she may
not be able to on her own and get more
favorable terms, but let's say she could. Does she have
the ability, uh, you know, to continue to own this car? Um,
or is she upside down on it at this point?
S5 (23:53):
Well, really, she can't afford it. Rob. Um, I, I
suggested to her, we want to try to find a
way for her to stop the bleeding now, before she
get in the middle of the contract and be done.
Wasted all that money, and they still end up repossessing
the car back anyway? Yeah. So we we we decided
to try to sell it to CarMax. CarMax is going
(24:16):
to give her less money, but she'll be in less
debt Did you know? And for whatever interest rate it,
you know, it's still going to be financed at the
24 or 25%, whatever it is. But, um.
S1 (24:29):
Yeah. Have you been to KBB or Edmunds? I mean,
what is the the private sale value of this car?
S5 (24:36):
I went on Blue Book.
S1 (24:38):
Right?
S5 (24:38):
Yeah. The the value of this car really roughly about
$22,000 for a 22 Toyota Camry. And this has 60,000
miles on it.
S1 (24:48):
Okay. All right. And she paid 24 for it. Is
that right?
S5 (24:53):
She paid 28 for it.
S1 (24:55):
28.
S5 (24:55):
Wow. And she put $2,000 down on it. And she's
financing 26 and some change.
S1 (25:03):
Okay. Yeah. So after it's all said and done, I mean,
she's going to have still potentially as much as, you know,
between 4 and $5000.
S5 (25:13):
Yeah. Roughly if she sell it to CarMax and I
think we didn't talk to CarMax and she had to
wait till she get the tag tags and things of
that nature for the car. Uh, and they said that,
you know, they would probably give her roughly about 17
to 18,000 for the car, so. Okay.
S1 (25:30):
Yeah. See, I wouldn't, um, I'd probably try to go
private sale. Now, you'd want somebody to help her with
that if you're open to it. And if you're not
in the area, that's going to be problematic. But because
I don't want her meeting people, you know, around town
to show the car. And, uh, as a young lady, uh,
so I want her to be safe. And CarMax helps
(25:51):
with that, obviously, because she just, you know, drives it
in and and they write a check. But, you know,
you're going to probably come, you know, a couple of
thousand below what you may be able to find somebody
to pay for it. Private sale. Because if the true
value of this car is 22, there's no reason you
shouldn't be able to sell it for 22, especially because,
(26:12):
you know, a lot of people are concerned that we may,
with the tariffs, see car prices in the back half
of this year. A good bit higher than they are
today for the same car. And so you've got a
lot of, you know, you're going to have a growing
amount of demand over the next 30 days. And you
know CarMax has to build in their profit, which is
why they're, you know, potentially buying this. It sounds like
(26:34):
5000 as much as 5000 below what you should be
able to get for it on a private sale basis.
The question would be is there anybody that could help
her navigate that? And in particular, I'm thinking about meeting people.
If she's selling it privately, you know, to to see
the car and so forth.
S5 (26:54):
Well, that's something that we had thought about also to
try to see if we can sell it in the
open market and see if somebody would give us more
than CarMax would give us for it. So, um, that
is something that I'll have to speak to her about
and see how comfortable she feels about, you know, putting
it out there in the open market like that. Um, but.
S1 (27:12):
Yeah.
S5 (27:13):
Yeah, yeah, that's where we're at with it right now. So.
S1 (27:16):
Okay. Yeah. Because again, if KBB. Kelley Blue Book is
saying that it's worth 22, I think if it's in
good shape and, you know, you listed all the features appropriately,
there's no reason you shouldn't be able to get what
they say you should on a private sale. And although
CarMax is easy, you're just driving in and they write
you a check. This is going to take more legwork,
(27:37):
but you're potentially leaving three, 4 or $5000 on the table,
which is a big deal. But again, I want her
to stay safe. Now, one option would be, you know, like,
for instance, in my local area here, uh, you know,
the local, uh, police department has a place that is lighted.
You wouldn't want to do it at night anyway, but
has cameras going 24 hours just for this purpose, for
(27:59):
people buying and selling things, you know, to other to others, like,
you know, everything from Craigslist to eBay and so forth.
So that could be a way, you know, that she
could meet someone and stay safe. But again, I'd want
somebody with her to try to help navigate this process
and keep her safe and negotiate and all of that.
But anyway, I think that's something worth looking into. I
(28:20):
think the second is what's the next step? Because the
other option is if we're going to try to get
her into something she can afford, maybe a dealer would
work with her and, you know, give her more on
a trade, knowing that she's going to buy something much
less expensive that she can actually afford. And maybe the
combination of a, you know, a much older car for,
(28:41):
you know, 12 grand plus 4000, you know, uh, you know,
on the deficiency between the, the loan value and the,
the car that she's selling, uh, she could roll in
and end up with a car payment. You know, that's
that's much more palatable because I assume she's going to
need some form of transportation to get to work. Um,
(29:01):
because really, the only option she's got here would be
a to refinance the loan. B, to sell the car. Uh,
c to trade it in. You don't want to do
the voluntary repossession. You don't really want to negotiate with
the lender because this loan is so high on the
interest rate. It's, you know, it's it's ridiculous. So that's
not an option. So at this point she's either trading
(29:24):
it or selling it. Um, and I don't think refinancing
is an option either because it's too much car. She
really can't afford it, so I would if I were you,
I'd probably try to maximize the amount she's getting coming
out of it and then use that, uh, you know, to, um,
you know, buy the next car, um, and, and buy
(29:45):
something she can actually afford, if that all makes sense.
S5 (29:48):
Yes. It does. Bob, I appreciate that. You know, we're
just trying to. Because, like I said, she didn't have
no credit. And, you know, no credit is like bad credit. So.
S1 (29:56):
Yeah.
S5 (29:57):
Trying to get you, you know. Yeah. Thank you. I
greatly appreciate your help. Um, we we got more options
than we had before, so thank you very much.
S1 (30:05):
Good. Yeah. I mean, obviously, you could solve that by
putting your name on the note. It's just that co-signing is,
you know, almost, one of those. That's a non-negotiable in
God's Word. And the reason is because it just has
such a propensity to damage relationships. And if something happens now,
you're responsible for it. So unless you're ready, willing, and
able to step in and take over those payments, I'd
(30:28):
say don't put your name on it if you were
willing to do that. If the you know, if she
was unable to perform on the loan, then obviously you
you all buying that car together would allow you to
get far more favorable terms, but you'd have to be
willing to step in and know that on the front end.
Otherwise I'd stay far from that. Louis, thanks for your call.
We appreciate you being on the program. God bless you.
(30:50):
We'll be right back. Thanks for joining us today on
Faith and finance live here on Moody Radio. Well, another
tumultuous day in the markets, although better than we were
expecting when we, uh, saw the futures over the weekend
and watched Asia and Europe sell off overnight last night.
(31:14):
Bob Dahl is with us. He's CEO and CIO at
Crossmark Global Investments. And glad to have you here, Bob.
Give us your read on this and maybe we'll start
with this. I mean, obviously we haven't talked since the
Rose garden event last week. I mean, we knew the
tariffs were coming. He's been talking about it for 40 years,
not to mention before and after the election. What was
(31:36):
it about what he announced on what he called Liberation
Day that caused the market to move so sharply lower?
S6 (31:43):
It was the size of the tariffs. Rob. Um, people
knew that he's been preaching that for for years and years. Uh,
but no one expected them to be this big. And
so what that then caused is this like a big
tax increase. Is it going to be an inflation increase?
(32:04):
And as every day went by, first with uncertainty and
then with was still question marks after the announcement. What's
the probability we're going to go into a recession. And
that's just in people's minds going up a little bit
every day. Yeah. And that's what's caused the, uh, the
sell off. Plus, as you and I have talked before,
a very expensive market. Yeah. Very expensive. Doesn't mean it
(32:25):
has to go down until there's a catalyst. Yes. And
that was the catalyst. And it's taken peace from, uh,
you know, uh, nosebleed territory to to still fairly high.
S1 (32:37):
Yeah. Yeah. I think in order to get down to
14 times earnings, we'd have to get to what, 4100
on the S&P 500? Is that right?
S6 (32:46):
Yeah. I don't I don't think we're going that low.
I'm not convinced we've seen the low. Although the efforts
today are going to create the bounce that typically comes
the first decline the massive decline that's called the bang.
And then you have a rally and then you have
a secondary low. They call that the whimper. And at
(33:10):
that point in time, and the whimper is sometimes lower
than the bang, it's sometimes a little higher in that neighborhood.
The question then goes back from technicals to fundamentals, and
the question will be, how's the economy? And if the
answer is the economy is okay, we'll probably fool around
at those levels. And that means we've seen close to
the low. If instead it's the probability of recession continues
(33:32):
to go higher, then we got to go lower. Yeah.
In terms of the stock market.
S1 (33:36):
So Bob, you mentioned the tariffs were quite a bit
higher than everyone anticipated and that we saw that crazy formula.
Not that there wasn't sound thinking behind it I have
no idea. But you know the big question is is
that the art of the deal? Is it a negotiating
strategy because he'd be happy meeting somewhere in the middle.
Although now we've seen two countries, uh, you know, we've
(33:58):
seen Vietnam and we've seen now I guess Europe this
afternoon is saying we'll go, we'll go to zero. But
he's saying it's not enough because he wants to deal
with the trade imbalance. Is that right?
S6 (34:09):
Yes. That's exactly the that's exactly what the headlines say.
So to your good question, no one knows the answer.
And um, that's what continues to create this, uh, volatility. Um,
is it the art of the deal. And look, the
man loves to make a deal. And my guess is
there's nothing in stone. Now, he will continue to say
(34:34):
no changes. We mean it. It's going to stay until
it doesn't, right? It's like. It's like Rob. To get
that done, I'm going to charge you $100 and you
say it's not worth 100. I said $100, right. And
then we go into a room and come out and
it's only $80, you know. Well, what's going on?
S1 (34:55):
Yeah. No doubt about it now. I mean, the news is, though,
that it's a lot of folks are calling. So we
heard over the weekend 50 countries. And we heard this
morning Japan is sending a delegation. Now, we're hearing that, uh,
I guess Secretary Besent is in active negotiations with, you know,
a whole litany of, of countries. So there's a lot
of movement there. But still, I guess uncertainty is the
(35:16):
order of the day, huh?
S6 (35:18):
Yes, I would say uncertainty is the order of the day.
We probably all I'm going to eat these words in
a second. We probably know what the worst could be.
But then again, you probably saw the headline If China
doesn't x, x, x, y, and z, we're going to
raise the ones on China. So who knows.
S1 (35:35):
Yeah. Yeah. No doubt about it. All right Bob.
S6 (35:38):
Well the markets hate uncertainty.
S1 (35:40):
Yeah. No question about it. Uh, now last week, speaking
to the health of the economy, although it was 30
days old, which seems like an eternity, uh, the jobs
number was good, right?
S6 (35:51):
Yes. It was. And I remind myself and everybody, jobs
are at best a coincident indicator, more often a lagging indicator.
I'd be shocked if we go through the next two
months with numbers that good.
S1 (36:05):
Yeah. Okay. Uh, but the bottom line is this economy
is like a steam locomotive. And, you know, although it's
going to slow, it's going to it's not going to
happen quickly. And, you know, for all intents and purposes,
this is still a pretty strong economy. Is that right?
S6 (36:20):
Yeah. With fraying, you know, you and I have talked
even since the first year. Our concerns were the consumers slowing.
The job market is slowing, not by a significant amount.
This is accelerated. All that I at beginning of the year,
I was saying probability of recession is 25%. When this
all started, I said 35%. Last week I raised it
(36:41):
to 50%.
S1 (36:43):
All right. Are you finding opportunities here? Are you buying?
S6 (36:47):
Yeah. I, um in fact, I said this on CNBC
late last week. I'm at the margin underscore at the margin,
buying what's down and trimming what is held. The example
I gave was Nvidia down 40%. A p e of
21 times. Trim some Coca Cola to fund it. Coke
(37:09):
near an all time high, selling at 27 times earnings. Wow.
So just at the margin, sell a little Coke. Buy
a little Nvidia leaning into cyclicality. Leaning into technology, leaning
into beta. Thankfully coming from a fairly defensive position. Yeah.
I don't know where the bottom is, obviously. But, uh,
that's the beauty of this business. It doesn't have to
(37:31):
be black and white. There's a lot of gray.
S1 (37:32):
Now you're saying you're at the margin. You're not buying
on margin, right? Exactly. Well, it's big difference. Yeah.
S6 (37:42):
Well said.
S1 (37:43):
Okay. Just wanted to clear that up. All right. Hey.
Last question, last question. What would you encourage? You know,
folks who are properly invested with the right diversification, what
do they do right now?
S6 (37:55):
You know, they thank the good Lord that they are
where they're supposed to be. And don't panic. Um, you know,
a lot of people were concerned about the level of
the market coming into the year and had some cash
on the sidelines. Well, if you've got more cash than
you should have longer term, um, doing a little buying
is okay. Don't be a hero in either direction, but
(38:16):
don't have anything on margin in this environment.
S1 (38:18):
Yeah. Well, I said earlier, Bob, this is also an
opportunity to check our hearts, right. Does this reveal something
about misplaced trust in my life? How I'm reacting.
S6 (38:27):
Amen. It's. Yeah. We we we trust in the Lord. And, uh,
money is just a tool to do things for the kingdom. Uh,
not something that we, uh, should have as our ultimate objective.
S1 (38:38):
Well said. All right, buy low, my friend, and, uh,
sell high.
S6 (38:43):
Okay.
S1 (38:43):
Sold. See you later.
S7 (38:46):
See you.
S1 (38:47):
That's Bob Dahl. He's CEO and chief investment officer at
Crossmark Global Investments. Uh, you can learn more at Crossmark global. Com.
All right. Let's finish up today. Uh, we're going to
go to Virginia and welcome Rob. Go ahead sir.
S8 (39:01):
Hey Rob, I love your show. Thanks for taking the call.
Appreciate it. I recently retired and want to roll my
401 K to a rollover IRA that I opened at fidelity.
The 401 K is within power, and I can request
an ACH transfer to fidelity, which I think means I
could be out of the market maybe five days, hopefully less.
Seeking your advice on when to initialize the rollover? The. Yeah. Never. Maybe.
S1 (39:27):
Yeah. Well, uh, I like the idea of you getting
it into the IRA now, usually. And I'm assuming this
would be the case when you transfer it out of
that 401 K. Uh, and their menu of options is
they're going to transfer it as cash, which means everything
gets liquidated, right.
S8 (39:43):
Yes. That's right. I think they're going to take the
net asset value and land as money market and the fidelity.
S1 (39:49):
Yeah. Now obviously you could turn around and with a
similar strategy or maybe with some tweaks to it, to it,
immediately deploy it. And so, you know, you're obviously, you know,
missing the few days that it's taking through the ACH,
which I guess we could call an eternity because the
market could be up or down 2000 points in the meantime.
So here's what I would say. I mean, if you
(40:10):
feel like you're properly invested, you know, maybe we let
this play out, um, because you probably weren't going to
sell anyway. Hopefully not. I would have encouraged you to,
to stay invested. But we ultimately want you in the
IRA because you're going to have more control over the fees.
You're going to have more control over the investment options.
If you wanted to put some faith based investments or
hire an advisor, that fidelity IRA is going to serve
(40:33):
you well. But perhaps given the fact that you're going
to be in limbo for a couple of days, maybe
you wait for this current news cycle to play out, assuming,
you know you weren't looking to make changes anyway to
the overall allocation, even though the specific investments you know
may change or would have changed. Does that make sense?
S8 (40:53):
It does. The only thing I'm doing now is dollar
cost averaging here and there, back into the equity. I
love it. And, uh, but I wonder if there's. And
I was thinking of something wild like tracking Cboe's VIX
to see if that's a good enough indicator, but I'm
not convinced that it is. It's a crystal ball like
any better than anything else.
S1 (41:12):
Yeah that's right. And I think here's the reality is
once the market has a little more clarity and you know,
with this president, maybe that's idealistic to think we're going
to we're going to get that in the near term.
And I'm not disparaging him in any way. I think
he's brilliant. Um, uh, even though there's some that might
question kind of this, this latest round of, uh, of
tariffs and how high they were and just some of
(41:35):
the flip flopping. But, uh, you know, at the same time, um,
I have to believe that we're heading toward some more
clarity on is he willing to negotiate these away or
are they here to stay? And then the market is
going to, I think, make a move in one direction
or the other that reflects that, and we might settle
(41:55):
into more of a new normal, whatever that might be.
And then perhaps that's the time to make this move.
At least not, you know, five days out from the
the tariff announcement, if you will.
S8 (42:06):
Perfect. Thank you so much.
S1 (42:08):
All right, Bob. Or excuse me, Rob, thanks for your
call today. And hey, all the best to you. Hey,
let me send you a book. Uh, my friend Jeff Hanan,
who's a moody author, and he's on our board at
Kingdom Advisors, a really gifted writer wrote a book called
The Uncommon Retirement that I think will be a blessing
to you as you head into this new season. So
stay on the line and, um, we'll get that out
(42:29):
to you as our gift to you. Thanks for your
call today. Well, folks, uh, we're going to wrap it
up right here. Carol and Joanna, let's try to get
you on the broadcast, perhaps tomorrow. Faith and finance is
a partnership between Moody Radio and Faith five. Big thanks
to my team today. Tricia, Jim, Dan, Darina and everybody
here at Faith by May. The Lord bless you. We'll
see you next time. Bye bye.
And he died for all that. Those who live might
no longer live for themselves, but for him who for
their sake died and was raised. Second Corinthians 515. I
am Rob West. Most of us view our income as
God's primary way of providing for us. And then, almost
as an afterthought, we consider giving. But what if Scripture
teaches the opposite? Paul David Tripp is here to flip
(00:31):
our theology of money upside down. And then it's on
to your calls at 800 525 7000. That's 805, two
five 7000. This is faith in finance. Live biblical wisdom
for your financial decisions. Well, our guest, Paul David Tripp,
(00:52):
is a pastor, author, and speaker who's written more than
30 books and videos on Christian living. His passion is
connecting the transforming power of Christ to everyday life. He's
a good friend of ours here at Faith five. Paul,
it's great to have you back on the program.
S2 (01:07):
It's good to be with you.
S1 (01:09):
Paul. Uh, you have a really insightful blog post at
Paul Trip.com. It's titled Is Our Theology of Money Upside Down?
And boy, it really hits to the heart of what
we do here at Faith five, because our vision is
that all Christians would see God as their ultimate treasure,
which really aligns with this idea. I'd love for you
to just explain this idea of the blog for us.
S2 (01:32):
I mean, I can explain this idea in two words.
When we think of money, we think God gave us
money so we could live. Yeah, he's actually given us
money so we could give. And that flipped will transform
the way you think about money and use the money
(01:54):
that God has given you.
S1 (01:56):
You know, it's a game changer of an idea. And,
you know, we start with this idea that God owns
everything and we are his household managers of what he
has entrusted to us. So we own nothing, but we
have stewardship responsibilities. Money is a good gift from God,
and it's okay to enjoy and to provide. But you're
proposing that's not the primary objective. Unpack that theology of
(02:20):
money that you're articulating from God's Word.
S2 (02:23):
Well, the Bible is the world's greatest generosity story. Yeah, literally,
the display of God's generosity is spread across every part
of Scripture, maybe captured by the nine words of John
316 For God so loved the world that he gave.
(02:44):
We worship a generously, lavishly giving God and money is
his means of inviting us to join him in his
generosity mission on Earth. That's that's the theology of money.
And and it's rooted in the fact that God is
(03:08):
the one who allocates money to us. My money is
not just the result of my gifts and my hard work. Um,
Jeremiah 27 says, it is by my great power and
my outstretched arm that I made the earth and the
men and animals that are in it, and I give
(03:28):
it to whomever it seems right to me. So you
start with the fact that God has allocated whatever funds
I have, and he's done that for his purpose.
S1 (03:44):
Mhm. And so perhaps, Paul, then the different question we
should ask is not how much should I give but
how much should I keep.
S2 (03:52):
Well that's exactly right. Because that's that's the flip. If
my primary purpose of my money is generosity, then rather
than how much should I give to God? It's how
little should I keep for myself so I can join
God in this glorious mission of generosity?
S1 (04:12):
Wow. That's powerful. So therefore, we live in the tension
of this. And I think that's a good thing, because
that involves wrestling with the Lord and really a posture
of prayer and open handedness. Isn't that right?
S2 (04:26):
Well, it's rooted in trusting that God will fulfill his
promise and he will provide.
S1 (04:31):
Yeah.
S2 (04:31):
If you don't trust in God as a provider, you're
going to take provision as your main job. And we're
endless vats of need and need will never end, and
there'll be very little that's left over.
S1 (04:46):
Incredible. Well, we're talking today with Paul David Tripp. He's
the author of the book Redeeming Money. Folks, if you
haven't read it, you need to pick up a copy today.
Redeeming Money how God Reveals and Reorients our hearts. We're
talking a theology of money today, and perhaps we need
to flip our thinking about money upside down. We'll continue
(05:07):
to unpack this just around the corner, including the practical
implications for our money management when we embrace this big idea.
I'm Rob West, he's Paul David Tripp back with more
faith in finance right after this. Stick around. Great to
(05:33):
have you with us today on Faith and Finance Live.
We're joined today by our good friend Paul David Tripp.
He's a pastor, author, and speaker. Uh, if you haven't
read a copy of Redeeming Money How God Reveals and
Reorients Our Hearts. Pick it up today. It's a game changer.
It's been, uh, really instrumental in my own development of
a theology of money, and that's what we're talking about today.
(05:55):
Here's the question is your theology of money upside down? And, Paul,
you challenged us before the break with this idea that
the real idea for why God entrusts to us what
he does is not so we can live on it.
It's first so we can give. And I like to
think we're most like God when we're giving because, as
you point out, he's the ultimate giver, isn't he?
S3 (06:17):
Yeah.
S2 (06:18):
It's again, the story of the Bible is just mind
blowing generosity of God on on every page. Um, and
so money is God's means of welcome us into this
mission of generosity on earth.
S1 (06:37):
Mhm. So how do you counsel folks that approach you
on how much is appropriate for their lifestyle? What counsel
would you give on wrestling through that?
S2 (06:47):
Well, we get into the issue of money management. And again,
you have to start with biblical values. So is money
management important? Absolutely it is. Yeah. Is being a good
steward of my money important? Absolutely it is. But not
so I could have a better lifestyle or so I
(07:11):
could have a bigger retirement. But. So I am more
able to be generous, as God has called me to. Uh,
when you're sloppy with money, then there's all kinds of waste.
There's all kinds of needless expenditures. There's all kinds of
emotional spending. Uh, and that gets in the way of
(07:34):
your ability to be part of this generosity mission.
S1 (07:39):
Mhm. And Paul, as you pointed out before the break,
it really starts with this idea of understanding where our
money comes from. Because like the parable of the rich fool.
You know, he said the words I and my like
nine times in that short story, essentially taking credit for
what he had received. And really that, you know, that's
(08:01):
a misunderstanding of even the power to get wealth, which
we know from Scripture, comes from God, right?
S2 (08:07):
Well, there's so much pride in acquisition. Yeah. That passage
that I read in Jeremiah 27 five in the last
segment just decimates because God says, I made it. It
all belongs to me, and I give it to whomever
I choose. So I have what I have because of
(08:28):
divine choice.
S1 (08:30):
Yeah.
S2 (08:30):
And all the gifts, all the opportunities, all the experiences.
They're all part of God's plan to give me what
I have.
S1 (08:40):
Mhm. Paul, we like to say money issues are hard issues.
If Jesus of course said where your treasure is, there
your heart will be also. So we know our heart
follows our money. And frankly, it's a privilege to be
able to give to God's activity. I mean, he doesn't
need us, but he allows us to participate, doesn't he?
S2 (09:00):
Yes. And I want to comment on what you just said.
Here's the way I think of it. Your wallet will
only ever go where your heart has already gone. If
you can keep that in your mind. My money will
only ever go where my heart has already gone. And so, uh,
(09:23):
change is not first a matter of budget. It's a
matter of the allegiance, the loyalty, the love of my heart.
S1 (09:32):
Mm. Yeah. And it really comes down to what is
your ultimate treasure. You know, I mentioned the parable of
the rich fool, and we see that profound idea right
at the end of the story after he's called a fool.
we see it was because he was not rich toward God.
What does that mean? Paul, what does it look like
to live rich toward God?
S2 (09:53):
It means I'm. I wake up every morning and I
can't believe that I am a child of God. That
God says to me because I'm his child, he will
give me everything I need for life and godliness. Bill
gates is rich, but he doesn't have everything. God says,
(10:16):
I'll get everything I need for life and godliness. So
I don't wake up feeling poor and needy and looking
around me for satisfaction. I get my satisfaction vertically. Yeah,
I'm not shopping for it horizontally. So much of the
(10:38):
way we waste money is we're searching for ways to
satisfy our hearts Arts and money will never satisfy your heart.
S1 (10:47):
Yes. Yeah. We just have to look around and see
plenty of people who have plenty of money that are unsatisfied,
the late Tim Keller said. Money is the most common
counterfeit God. He did every sin confessed in his office,
save one. And it's the sin of greed. You know,
we can attempt to redeem greed in the name of
the American dream if we're not careful, can't we?
S2 (11:09):
Yeah, that's that's exactly right. Uh, and that's another counterfeit theology.
S1 (11:16):
Paul, as we think about this topic and then how
we're to live, what would you say to that young person,
perhaps that newly married couple that's just starting out how
they can resist what I'll call affluenza? This, this natural
gravitation toward our level of spending always rising to our
level of income. What does that look like?
S2 (11:37):
Well, if I could refer you to a passage, one
of the passages that was transformational for me was Ephesians 428.
It says, let the thief steal no longer, but rather
let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands.
Now you would think that Paul would say next, so
(11:58):
he has enough to live on. Yes, but what he
says is so that he may have something to share
with anyone in need. Put that verse on the mirror
that you look at every morning.
S1 (12:11):
Wow.
S2 (12:11):
And remember that the labor of your hands isn't first
for you. It's first for someone else.
S1 (12:21):
Wow.
S2 (12:22):
And just as God expended his lavish goodness to give, give,
give to us, God says, expend your labor so that
you have the wherewithal to give to others. Start there.
S1 (12:39):
Yes, Paul, we've obviously got to make lifestyle decisions and
I want to finish here today. We've got just a
minute left. What does it look like then to settle
into an appropriate lifestyle that you believe is God honoring and,
and still reflects a proper theology of money that you've articulated?
S2 (12:57):
Well, I think the two things we do is we set, uh,
places that we are always going to give. Uh, that's
that's first we make those decisions first, and then we
are always looking for needs that come up that we
(13:17):
can give to. That means we have to have the
wherewithal to do that.
S1 (13:22):
Yes.
S2 (13:23):
So we're not starting with our needs.
S1 (13:26):
Boy, that is a big idea and a game changer
when it comes to our money management. The idea that
God would be your ultimate treasure and money, a tool
to accomplish God's purposes, and perhaps the primary reason for
your wealth is so you can give Paul thanks for
being here today.
S2 (13:42):
You're welcome. Thank you.
S1 (13:44):
That's pastor, author and speaker Paul David Tripp. You'll find
a wealth of insightful content to help you connect the
transforming power of Jesus to your daily life at Paul Tripp.
By the way, be sure to check out his book,
Redeeming Money How God Reveals and Reorients Our Hearts Out
of Nowhere. After all of his books on Christian living
(14:05):
and parenting and so many other topics, he came out
with a money book. And wouldn't you know, it was incredible.
It was something I just thoroughly enjoyed reading. And I
know you will as well. All right, a quick break
and then back with your questions. The number 800 525 7000.
We'll be right back.
S4 (14:32):
The opinions offered during this program represent the personal or
professional opinions of the participants given for informational purposes only.
Any information provided is not intended to replace advice from
a financial, medical, legal or other professional who understands your
specific situation.
S1 (14:56):
Hey, thanks for joining us today on Faith and finance
live here on Moody Radio. I'm Rob West. Boy, a
treat to have Paul David Tripp with us today. That book,
Redeeming Money has been a game changer for me. Pick
it up wherever you buy books. Uh, so thankful for
his insights around what, uh, really can be called an
upside down theology of money. You know, if we take
our cues from this world, we can completely miss God's
(15:20):
design for our role as faithful stewards. And I appreciate, uh,
Paul Tripp for leaning into that. Well, a lot going
on in the markets today, as you might imagine. Uh,
the Dow Jones, uh, off 350 points, which was a
lot better than where we started the day. As you
might have seen over the weekend, there was a lot
of talk about today being a Black Monday of sorts.
(15:43):
Following the big sell off late last week post Rose
Garden reciprocal tariff event. We thought today might be that
another that second or third big leg down, perhaps taking
us into bear market territory. Uh, it did start off
down 1500 points on the Dow. Interestingly, for a brief
(16:04):
moment this morning, we had about a 2000 point swing
where we went from down about 1500 to up 600 points.
On news that came out during the day that President
Trump was considering pausing tariffs for 90 days on all
countries except China. Well, on that news that was supposedly
leaked out, the market surged. Well, it was about, uh,
(16:27):
ten minutes later that, uh, the press secretary confirmed that. No,
that was fake news. That was not true. It was
not on the table at all. And the market quickly
turned back down. However, where we finished the day, you
might say, well, we'll take it less than 1% down
on the Dow Jones, about a quarter of a point
down on the S&P 500. The Nasdaq actually finishing the
(16:49):
day barely positive. This is all of course, just more
fallout from the announcement in the Rose garden last week
of what President Trump called Liberation Day. The reciprocal tariffs,
you might say, well, he's been talking about this for
40 years because there is speeches he gave literally 40
years ago talking about the importance of tariffs and the
(17:11):
fact that there was not a level playing field and
the US had been taken advantage of for a long time.
And then he talked about it during the campaign, and
then he talked about it again post election. So why
wasn't it all baked into the markets? Well, I think
most economists feel like that. What was announced last week
on the 2nd of April went well beyond what they
(17:35):
were expecting. The formula that they used looked at not
only the monetary tariffs that each country was imposing on
US goods when they came into their countries, but other
mechanisms like the VAT tax and even IP theft and
trade imbalances. And when you put all that together, we
ended up with tariffs that were much higher than the
market anticipated. That uncertainty on top of now a shift
(17:59):
toward a possible recession, which many economists were now calling for,
caused that massive sell off last Thursday and Friday. That
has continued in part today, although again, despite what happened
in Asia and Europe overnight last night, we fared pretty
well for all intents and purposes. Where are we headed
(18:20):
from here? Well, the big question is, you know, are
these tariffs something that's going that are going to be
with us for a while? Because on one hand, the
president has been talking about all of the revenues that
we're going to be receiving and have actually already started
receiving with the tariffs coming into the US. And although
that generates a lot of revenues, hundreds of billions of
(18:43):
dollars for the United States and could even give further
incentive for more tax cuts on the part of Congress
if this offset the cost of that on top of
lower energy, because oil has been falling on top of
lower mortgage rates, because the Treasury has been falling in
terms of the yield, is that the long term play?
And if so, the prospect of a recession rises and
(19:06):
the prospect of what's called stagflation, where you have rising
prices and low or no growth. And so that's a concern.
And that's really been the big, uh, you know, reason
for the market, uh, moving down so significantly, on the
other hand, is it really the art of the deal,
the president's book. And and were those higher than expected
tariffs last week a negotiating tactic to get these now
(19:30):
50 plus countries that have reached out, including Vietnam, including
the European Union, to negotiate something that the president feels
like is more acceptable. And then the tariffs would be
negotiated away. Well, if so, the market has already indicated
it would skyrocket. So there's a lot that remains to
be seen. And here's the big idea I think for
(19:52):
us is, number one, financially speaking, we need to stay
the course. You know, we talk about investing not being
something we do for a day or a quarter or
a year. It's long term. And so if we were
invested appropriately for our age and risk tolerance, then we
should be able to stress test the downside. That was
that would be commensurate to the portfolio we have. So
(20:14):
with a fully invested portfolio, 100% stocks, I would say
you should be able to be able to weather a 30%
downward move and feel like you'd be comfortable not selling
and waiting for it to come back. Which, by the way,
it always has, despite every major event we've had here
(20:35):
in the United States. And if that's the case, then
you're in good shape. You wait it out. And if
you're approaching retirement, well, you're maybe in a 60 over
40 portfolio. And you know, when the market's down 20,
maybe you're down 7% or eight. And again, you'd wait
it out because you have 6 to 12 months worth
of income that you could rely on. Well, that's the
way we should be investing for the long haul. Not
(20:57):
reacting to the emotional moves of the of the market,
especially with you got incredible volatility like we have now.
I mean, keep in mind last Friday was there was
more shares of stock traded than ever before in the
history of the stock market. That's a lot of volatility.
You know, the other thing I think we need to
look at is we need to check our hearts. And
(21:18):
we need to say is there something I need to
pay attention to. Does my response to this reveal something
about misplaced trust in my life, and I'm talking to
myself as well, because of the things of this world
are not where we need to have our hope. We
need to have our hope fixated on our identity in Christ,
the imperishable inheritance we've been given, and ultimately live out
(21:42):
that eternal perspective. So let's think about that. I'll do
that as well. Make it a matter of prayer. Stay
the long game here in the investing world. We'll be
right back. Thanks for joining us today on Faith and
(22:02):
Finance Live. I'm Rob West. Coming up in our final segment.
Bob Dole stops by. So that'll be our next chance
to get Bob's thinking on the markets, especially on the
heels of of last week. But let's get to the phones.
So we've got several lines holding and we're going to
begin in Fort Lauderdale today. Hi, Lewis. Go ahead.
S5 (22:20):
Hi, Rob. Good afternoon. Thanks for taking my call. Rob
I'm calling on behalf of my niece. She's in Georgia.
She went to the car lot to make her first
purchase of a vehicle. She's 24 years old, and we're
trying to find a way to get her out of
this contract. It's a contract she can't afford. They sold
her a 22 Toyota Camry for $28,000. 25% interest on
(22:46):
a 72 month payment. Uh, at $710 a month, she's paying.
We'll be paying $410 a month for insurance. So, um,
I wasn't there to go to the lot with her.
She made this decision and made this mistake. We're trying
to see how we can get her out of this.
Or give the car back. Or what can we do
(23:08):
other than what we've already thought about doing?
S1 (23:11):
Oh, Louis, I'm so sorry to hear that. Boy, that
is really tough. And, uh, you know, should be considered
usury as far as I'm concerned. Uh, obviously, usury doesn't
exist anymore. It's now been replaced with truth and lending.
So technically, as long as they disclosed her what they're
going to charge her, you know, they can get away
with it. Even though I think this is a horrible. Um,
(23:33):
so where what is her financial position right now? I mean,
if she could refinance this, and I realize she may
not be able to on her own and get more
favorable terms, but let's say she could. Does she have
the ability, uh, you know, to continue to own this car? Um,
or is she upside down on it at this point?
S5 (23:53):
Well, really, she can't afford it. Rob. Um, I, I
suggested to her, we want to try to find a
way for her to stop the bleeding now, before she
get in the middle of the contract and be done.
Wasted all that money, and they still end up repossessing
the car back anyway? Yeah. So we we we decided
to try to sell it to CarMax. CarMax is going
(24:16):
to give her less money, but she'll be in less
debt Did you know? And for whatever interest rate it,
you know, it's still going to be financed at the
24 or 25%, whatever it is. But, um.
S1 (24:29):
Yeah. Have you been to KBB or Edmunds? I mean,
what is the the private sale value of this car?
S5 (24:36):
I went on Blue Book.
S1 (24:38):
Right?
S5 (24:38):
Yeah. The the value of this car really roughly about
$22,000 for a 22 Toyota Camry. And this has 60,000
miles on it.
S1 (24:48):
Okay. All right. And she paid 24 for it. Is
that right?
S5 (24:53):
She paid 28 for it.
S1 (24:55):
28.
S5 (24:55):
Wow. And she put $2,000 down on it. And she's
financing 26 and some change.
S1 (25:03):
Okay. Yeah. So after it's all said and done, I mean,
she's going to have still potentially as much as, you know,
between 4 and $5000.
S5 (25:13):
Yeah. Roughly if she sell it to CarMax and I
think we didn't talk to CarMax and she had to
wait till she get the tag tags and things of
that nature for the car. Uh, and they said that,
you know, they would probably give her roughly about 17
to 18,000 for the car, so. Okay.
S1 (25:30):
Yeah. See, I wouldn't, um, I'd probably try to go
private sale. Now, you'd want somebody to help her with
that if you're open to it. And if you're not
in the area, that's going to be problematic. But because
I don't want her meeting people, you know, around town
to show the car. And, uh, as a young lady, uh,
so I want her to be safe. And CarMax helps
(25:51):
with that, obviously, because she just, you know, drives it
in and and they write a check. But, you know,
you're going to probably come, you know, a couple of
thousand below what you may be able to find somebody
to pay for it. Private sale. Because if the true
value of this car is 22, there's no reason you
shouldn't be able to sell it for 22, especially because,
(26:12):
you know, a lot of people are concerned that we may,
with the tariffs, see car prices in the back half
of this year. A good bit higher than they are
today for the same car. And so you've got a
lot of, you know, you're going to have a growing
amount of demand over the next 30 days. And you
know CarMax has to build in their profit, which is
why they're, you know, potentially buying this. It sounds like
(26:34):
5000 as much as 5000 below what you should be
able to get for it on a private sale basis.
The question would be is there anybody that could help
her navigate that? And in particular, I'm thinking about meeting people.
If she's selling it privately, you know, to to see
the car and so forth.
S5 (26:54):
Well, that's something that we had thought about also to
try to see if we can sell it in the
open market and see if somebody would give us more
than CarMax would give us for it. So, um, that
is something that I'll have to speak to her about
and see how comfortable she feels about, you know, putting
it out there in the open market like that. Um, but.
S1 (27:12):
Yeah.
S5 (27:13):
Yeah, yeah, that's where we're at with it right now. So.
S1 (27:16):
Okay. Yeah. Because again, if KBB. Kelley Blue Book is
saying that it's worth 22, I think if it's in
good shape and, you know, you listed all the features appropriately,
there's no reason you shouldn't be able to get what
they say you should on a private sale. And although
CarMax is easy, you're just driving in and they write
you a check. This is going to take more legwork,
(27:37):
but you're potentially leaving three, 4 or $5000 on the table,
which is a big deal. But again, I want her
to stay safe. Now, one option would be, you know, like,
for instance, in my local area here, uh, you know,
the local, uh, police department has a place that is lighted.
You wouldn't want to do it at night anyway, but
has cameras going 24 hours just for this purpose, for
(27:59):
people buying and selling things, you know, to other to others, like,
you know, everything from Craigslist to eBay and so forth.
So that could be a way, you know, that she
could meet someone and stay safe. But again, I'd want
somebody with her to try to help navigate this process
and keep her safe and negotiate and all of that.
But anyway, I think that's something worth looking into. I
(28:20):
think the second is what's the next step? Because the
other option is if we're going to try to get
her into something she can afford, maybe a dealer would
work with her and, you know, give her more on
a trade, knowing that she's going to buy something much
less expensive that she can actually afford. And maybe the
combination of a, you know, a much older car for,
(28:41):
you know, 12 grand plus 4000, you know, uh, you know,
on the deficiency between the, the loan value and the,
the car that she's selling, uh, she could roll in
and end up with a car payment. You know, that's
that's much more palatable because I assume she's going to
need some form of transportation to get to work. Um,
(29:01):
because really, the only option she's got here would be
a to refinance the loan. B, to sell the car. Uh,
c to trade it in. You don't want to do
the voluntary repossession. You don't really want to negotiate with
the lender because this loan is so high on the
interest rate. It's, you know, it's it's ridiculous. So that's
not an option. So at this point she's either trading
(29:24):
it or selling it. Um, and I don't think refinancing
is an option either because it's too much car. She
really can't afford it, so I would if I were you,
I'd probably try to maximize the amount she's getting coming
out of it and then use that, uh, you know, to, um,
you know, buy the next car, um, and, and buy
(29:45):
something she can actually afford, if that all makes sense.
S5 (29:48):
Yes. It does. Bob, I appreciate that. You know, we're
just trying to. Because, like I said, she didn't have
no credit. And, you know, no credit is like bad credit. So.
S1 (29:56):
Yeah.
S5 (29:57):
Trying to get you, you know. Yeah. Thank you. I
greatly appreciate your help. Um, we we got more options
than we had before, so thank you very much.
S1 (30:05):
Good. Yeah. I mean, obviously, you could solve that by
putting your name on the note. It's just that co-signing is,
you know, almost, one of those. That's a non-negotiable in
God's Word. And the reason is because it just has
such a propensity to damage relationships. And if something happens now,
you're responsible for it. So unless you're ready, willing, and
able to step in and take over those payments, I'd
(30:28):
say don't put your name on it if you were
willing to do that. If the you know, if she
was unable to perform on the loan, then obviously you
you all buying that car together would allow you to
get far more favorable terms, but you'd have to be
willing to step in and know that on the front end.
Otherwise I'd stay far from that. Louis, thanks for your call.
We appreciate you being on the program. God bless you.
(30:50):
We'll be right back. Thanks for joining us today on
Faith and finance live here on Moody Radio. Well, another
tumultuous day in the markets, although better than we were
expecting when we, uh, saw the futures over the weekend
and watched Asia and Europe sell off overnight last night.
(31:14):
Bob Dahl is with us. He's CEO and CIO at
Crossmark Global Investments. And glad to have you here, Bob.
Give us your read on this and maybe we'll start
with this. I mean, obviously we haven't talked since the
Rose garden event last week. I mean, we knew the
tariffs were coming. He's been talking about it for 40 years,
not to mention before and after the election. What was
(31:36):
it about what he announced on what he called Liberation
Day that caused the market to move so sharply lower?
S6 (31:43):
It was the size of the tariffs. Rob. Um, people
knew that he's been preaching that for for years and years. Uh,
but no one expected them to be this big. And
so what that then caused is this like a big
tax increase. Is it going to be an inflation increase?
(32:04):
And as every day went by, first with uncertainty and
then with was still question marks after the announcement. What's
the probability we're going to go into a recession. And
that's just in people's minds going up a little bit
every day. Yeah. And that's what's caused the, uh, the
sell off. Plus, as you and I have talked before,
a very expensive market. Yeah. Very expensive. Doesn't mean it
(32:25):
has to go down until there's a catalyst. Yes. And
that was the catalyst. And it's taken peace from, uh,
you know, uh, nosebleed territory to to still fairly high.
S1 (32:37):
Yeah. Yeah. I think in order to get down to
14 times earnings, we'd have to get to what, 4100
on the S&P 500? Is that right?
S6 (32:46):
Yeah. I don't I don't think we're going that low.
I'm not convinced we've seen the low. Although the efforts
today are going to create the bounce that typically comes
the first decline the massive decline that's called the bang.
And then you have a rally and then you have
a secondary low. They call that the whimper. And at
(33:10):
that point in time, and the whimper is sometimes lower
than the bang, it's sometimes a little higher in that neighborhood.
The question then goes back from technicals to fundamentals, and
the question will be, how's the economy? And if the
answer is the economy is okay, we'll probably fool around
at those levels. And that means we've seen close to
the low. If instead it's the probability of recession continues
(33:32):
to go higher, then we got to go lower. Yeah.
In terms of the stock market.
S1 (33:36):
So Bob, you mentioned the tariffs were quite a bit
higher than everyone anticipated and that we saw that crazy formula.
Not that there wasn't sound thinking behind it I have
no idea. But you know the big question is is
that the art of the deal? Is it a negotiating
strategy because he'd be happy meeting somewhere in the middle.
Although now we've seen two countries, uh, you know, we've
(33:58):
seen Vietnam and we've seen now I guess Europe this
afternoon is saying we'll go, we'll go to zero. But
he's saying it's not enough because he wants to deal
with the trade imbalance. Is that right?
S6 (34:09):
Yes. That's exactly the that's exactly what the headlines say.
So to your good question, no one knows the answer.
And um, that's what continues to create this, uh, volatility. Um,
is it the art of the deal. And look, the
man loves to make a deal. And my guess is
there's nothing in stone. Now, he will continue to say
(34:34):
no changes. We mean it. It's going to stay until
it doesn't, right? It's like. It's like Rob. To get
that done, I'm going to charge you $100 and you
say it's not worth 100. I said $100, right. And
then we go into a room and come out and
it's only $80, you know. Well, what's going on?
S1 (34:55):
Yeah. No doubt about it now. I mean, the news is, though,
that it's a lot of folks are calling. So we
heard over the weekend 50 countries. And we heard this
morning Japan is sending a delegation. Now, we're hearing that, uh,
I guess Secretary Besent is in active negotiations with, you know,
a whole litany of, of countries. So there's a lot
of movement there. But still, I guess uncertainty is the
(35:16):
order of the day, huh?
S6 (35:18):
Yes, I would say uncertainty is the order of the day.
We probably all I'm going to eat these words in
a second. We probably know what the worst could be.
But then again, you probably saw the headline If China
doesn't x, x, x, y, and z, we're going to
raise the ones on China. So who knows.
S1 (35:35):
Yeah. Yeah. No doubt about it. All right Bob.
S6 (35:38):
Well the markets hate uncertainty.
S1 (35:40):
Yeah. No question about it. Uh, now last week, speaking
to the health of the economy, although it was 30
days old, which seems like an eternity, uh, the jobs
number was good, right?
S6 (35:51):
Yes. It was. And I remind myself and everybody, jobs
are at best a coincident indicator, more often a lagging indicator.
I'd be shocked if we go through the next two
months with numbers that good.
S1 (36:05):
Yeah. Okay. Uh, but the bottom line is this economy
is like a steam locomotive. And, you know, although it's
going to slow, it's going to it's not going to
happen quickly. And, you know, for all intents and purposes,
this is still a pretty strong economy. Is that right?
S6 (36:20):
Yeah. With fraying, you know, you and I have talked
even since the first year. Our concerns were the consumers slowing.
The job market is slowing, not by a significant amount.
This is accelerated. All that I at beginning of the year,
I was saying probability of recession is 25%. When this
all started, I said 35%. Last week I raised it
(36:41):
to 50%.
S1 (36:43):
All right. Are you finding opportunities here? Are you buying?
S6 (36:47):
Yeah. I, um in fact, I said this on CNBC
late last week. I'm at the margin underscore at the margin,
buying what's down and trimming what is held. The example
I gave was Nvidia down 40%. A p e of
21 times. Trim some Coca Cola to fund it. Coke
(37:09):
near an all time high, selling at 27 times earnings. Wow.
So just at the margin, sell a little Coke. Buy
a little Nvidia leaning into cyclicality. Leaning into technology, leaning
into beta. Thankfully coming from a fairly defensive position. Yeah.
I don't know where the bottom is, obviously. But, uh,
that's the beauty of this business. It doesn't have to
(37:31):
be black and white. There's a lot of gray.
S1 (37:32):
Now you're saying you're at the margin. You're not buying
on margin, right? Exactly. Well, it's big difference. Yeah.
S6 (37:42):
Well said.
S1 (37:43):
Okay. Just wanted to clear that up. All right. Hey.
Last question, last question. What would you encourage? You know,
folks who are properly invested with the right diversification, what
do they do right now?
S6 (37:55):
You know, they thank the good Lord that they are
where they're supposed to be. And don't panic. Um, you know,
a lot of people were concerned about the level of
the market coming into the year and had some cash
on the sidelines. Well, if you've got more cash than
you should have longer term, um, doing a little buying
is okay. Don't be a hero in either direction, but
(38:16):
don't have anything on margin in this environment.
S1 (38:18):
Yeah. Well, I said earlier, Bob, this is also an
opportunity to check our hearts, right. Does this reveal something
about misplaced trust in my life? How I'm reacting.
S6 (38:27):
Amen. It's. Yeah. We we we trust in the Lord. And, uh,
money is just a tool to do things for the kingdom. Uh,
not something that we, uh, should have as our ultimate objective.
S1 (38:38):
Well said. All right, buy low, my friend, and, uh,
sell high.
S6 (38:43):
Okay.
S1 (38:43):
Sold. See you later.
S7 (38:46):
See you.
S1 (38:47):
That's Bob Dahl. He's CEO and chief investment officer at
Crossmark Global Investments. Uh, you can learn more at Crossmark global. Com.
All right. Let's finish up today. Uh, we're going to
go to Virginia and welcome Rob. Go ahead sir.
S8 (39:01):
Hey Rob, I love your show. Thanks for taking the call.
Appreciate it. I recently retired and want to roll my
401 K to a rollover IRA that I opened at fidelity.
The 401 K is within power, and I can request
an ACH transfer to fidelity, which I think means I
could be out of the market maybe five days, hopefully less.
Seeking your advice on when to initialize the rollover? The. Yeah. Never. Maybe.
S1 (39:27):
Yeah. Well, uh, I like the idea of you getting
it into the IRA now, usually. And I'm assuming this
would be the case when you transfer it out of
that 401 K. Uh, and their menu of options is
they're going to transfer it as cash, which means everything
gets liquidated, right.
S8 (39:43):
Yes. That's right. I think they're going to take the
net asset value and land as money market and the fidelity.
S1 (39:49):
Yeah. Now obviously you could turn around and with a
similar strategy or maybe with some tweaks to it, to it,
immediately deploy it. And so, you know, you're obviously, you know,
missing the few days that it's taking through the ACH,
which I guess we could call an eternity because the
market could be up or down 2000 points in the meantime.
So here's what I would say. I mean, if you
(40:10):
feel like you're properly invested, you know, maybe we let
this play out, um, because you probably weren't going to
sell anyway. Hopefully not. I would have encouraged you to,
to stay invested. But we ultimately want you in the
IRA because you're going to have more control over the fees.
You're going to have more control over the investment options.
If you wanted to put some faith based investments or
hire an advisor, that fidelity IRA is going to serve
(40:33):
you well. But perhaps given the fact that you're going
to be in limbo for a couple of days, maybe
you wait for this current news cycle to play out, assuming,
you know you weren't looking to make changes anyway to
the overall allocation, even though the specific investments you know
may change or would have changed. Does that make sense?
S8 (40:53):
It does. The only thing I'm doing now is dollar
cost averaging here and there, back into the equity. I
love it. And, uh, but I wonder if there's. And
I was thinking of something wild like tracking Cboe's VIX
to see if that's a good enough indicator, but I'm
not convinced that it is. It's a crystal ball like
any better than anything else.
S1 (41:12):
Yeah that's right. And I think here's the reality is
once the market has a little more clarity and you know,
with this president, maybe that's idealistic to think we're going
to we're going to get that in the near term.
And I'm not disparaging him in any way. I think
he's brilliant. Um, uh, even though there's some that might
question kind of this, this latest round of, uh, of
tariffs and how high they were and just some of
(41:35):
the flip flopping. But, uh, you know, at the same time, um,
I have to believe that we're heading toward some more
clarity on is he willing to negotiate these away or
are they here to stay? And then the market is
going to, I think, make a move in one direction
or the other that reflects that, and we might settle
(41:55):
into more of a new normal, whatever that might be.
And then perhaps that's the time to make this move.
At least not, you know, five days out from the
the tariff announcement, if you will.
S8 (42:06):
Perfect. Thank you so much.
S1 (42:08):
All right, Bob. Or excuse me, Rob, thanks for your
call today. And hey, all the best to you. Hey,
let me send you a book. Uh, my friend Jeff Hanan,
who's a moody author, and he's on our board at
Kingdom Advisors, a really gifted writer wrote a book called
The Uncommon Retirement that I think will be a blessing
to you as you head into this new season. So
stay on the line and, um, we'll get that out
(42:29):
to you as our gift to you. Thanks for your
call today. Well, folks, uh, we're going to wrap it
up right here. Carol and Joanna, let's try to get
you on the broadcast, perhaps tomorrow. Faith and finance is
a partnership between Moody Radio and Faith five. Big thanks
to my team today. Tricia, Jim, Dan, Darina and everybody
here at Faith by May. The Lord bless you. We'll
see you next time. Bye bye.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!