June 27, 2025 • 42 mins
What if true joy doesn’t come from gaining more, but from gratefully receiving what God has already provided? On Faith & Finance Live, Rob West and John Cortines explore what is called the Cycle of Grateful Living. Explore how it transforms our approach to money and contentment. Then, Rob tackles your financial questions. Listen for the next Faith & Finance Live, where biblical wisdom meets today’s finances, weekdays at 4pm Eastern/3pm Central on Moody Radio.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:08):
Everyone also to whom God has given wealth and possessions
and the power to enjoy them, and to accept his
lot and rejoice in his toil. This is the gift
of God. Ecclesiastes 519. Hi, I'm Rob West. What a
true joy doesn't come from gaining more, but from gratefully
receiving what God has already provided. Today, John Cortinez joins
(00:29):
us to explore what he calls the cycle of grateful living,
how it transforms our approach to money and contentment. And
then it's on to your calls at 800, 500, 25, 7000.
This is faith and finance. Live. Biblical wisdom for your
financial journey. Well, I always love having John Cortinez in
(00:52):
the studio. He's the director of Grant making at the
MacLellan Foundation, also the co-author of God and Money and
True Riches. He's also the author of Faith for his
new study on the book of Ecclesiastes, Wisdom over Wealth. Jon,
great to have you back with us.
S2 (01:07):
Thanks for having me, Rob.
S1 (01:08):
Today we're returning to wisdom over Wealth to explore what
you call John the cycle of grateful living and how
embracing it can truly be life changing. Give us some
context to this as we get started.
S2 (01:22):
Well, Cheri, you know, it was such a joy to
dig into Ecclesiastes. And as I was studying that book
and reading commentaries, especially with an eye toward faith in
our finances, I kept coming back to Ecclesiastes 518 through 20.
You just read verse 19. After a lot of study,
I've really come to view these as critically important verses.
Ecclesiastes has so much to say about our search for
(01:44):
meaning and contentment in life, and these verses come right
in the middle of the longest meditation on money, and
they reflect on what it means to enjoy the life
that God has actually given us. So we're told that
it's good and fitting to eat and drink and find
satisfaction in our work. But the key is that even
the ability to enjoy what we have, that is a
gift from God too. So just to look at those
(02:06):
three verses very quickly, at an overview level, verse 18
shows us what's good for everyone if I'm rich. If
I'm poor. Finding joy in my everyday life and labor
is good. Verse 19 introduces the idea that wealth is
a gift, not just the possessions and the money, but
even the power to enjoy that gift. If we're alive
and mentally present enough to enjoy something, then that's a
(02:28):
gift from God. During our short life on earth. And
verse 20 gives us the result of this mindset If
I'm living this way, God will keep me occupied with joy,
not with worry or regret.
S1 (02:40):
Yeah, John, I think this is such an important idea.
You know, the the idea that money is a good
gift from God. It's something he created. And it's for
in part our enjoyment. I think we can miss that
in our understanding that, you know, money is dangerous, which
it is. And so we have to be on our guard.
But this enjoyment factor, I think, is often overlooked. Do
(03:03):
you see that?
S2 (03:04):
I do. You know, it's it's something that, uh, you know,
all of Scripture is there for our edification and benefit.
And Ecclesiastes provides such a powerful witness to that, that,
of course, wealth is a temptation and a danger. That's
clear in Scripture. But also, just like you said, it's
a gift from God, and he loves to bless his children. Yeah.
So I'd love to walk through that cycle of grateful living,
(03:25):
if that sounds good.
S1 (03:26):
Let's do that.
S2 (03:27):
So, um, you know, when we look at that verse 19,
it gives us a pattern that I have an acronym
for that we use in the study, which is to
e a t, which of course spells eat. That seems
appropriate in a book that tells us to remember joy
in our eating and drinking. But in this case, we're
we're saying that stands for enjoy. Except toil. Eat. Okay. Um,
(03:47):
and so e is enjoy God's provision. Just like we're saying,
we begin by recognizing that everything we have is a gift.
Not just our wealth, but even the ability to enjoy
it if we have health or freedom or relationships. These
are a gift from God that makes enjoying his gifts
and creation and provision possible. So that's to enjoy. A
is accept life's brevity. The second step is to accept
(04:11):
our lot our few days of life, our current season
of life, even the limitations that we face. Ecclesiastes meditates
on death a whole lot because it's wanting us to
recognize that life is short. And when we recognize this,
it gives us a greater sense of purpose in the
precious few years that we get on earth. And then finally,
T is to toil with joy, because Ecclesiastes does call
(04:35):
us to rejoice in our work, and we often dream
of escaping work through wealth. But Ecclesiastes tells us that
proper joy is found in our toil, not escaping from it.
S1 (04:47):
That is so good, John. Well, I can't wait to
unpack this a bit more as we begin to talk
about this cycle of grateful living, specifically what gets in
the way. And for those of us who have been
blessed with much, and I would say everyone listening to
this broadcast and the most prosperous nation in the history
of the world, if we have more than we need,
(05:07):
we've been blessed with much. But why does Joy get
choked out so often in that? We're talking today with
John Cortinez. He's the author of a new study on Ecclesiastes,
Wisdom over Wealth. We're talking the cycle of grateful living,
and we'll continue just around the corner. We're just getting started.
Stay with us. So glad to have you with us
(05:32):
today on faith and finance. Live with me today in
studio is John Cortinez. He's director of grantmaking at the
MacLellan Foundation, is the co-author of God and Money in
the book True Riches. He's also the author of Faith
Buys Brand New Ecclesiastes study. It's called Wisdom over Wealth.
I can't wait for you to get your hands on it.
If you want to do that, just head to faith.com.
(05:54):
You can order it. Today we're diving into one aspect
of wisdom over wealth what John calls in the study
the cycle of grateful living. And he unpacked that around
an acronym e t to enjoy God's provision, accept life's
brevity and toil with joy. And, uh, John, it's safe
(06:17):
to say that most of us wrestle at times with
feeling truly grateful or joyful in the rhythms of daily life.
What do you think tends to get in the way
for most of us?
S2 (06:26):
Well, you know, if Ecclesiastes calls us to enjoy provision
except life's brevity and rejoice in our toil, I think
it's interesting to say what would be the opposite? I
could take God's provision for granted, forgetting to be content
and grateful. I could never think about how precious and
short life is, and I just trudge along day by
day and not give it much thought. And I can
complain and bicker about my toil and my work, dreaming
(06:48):
about some far off day when I can escape the
rat race. Yeah, but really, how miserable is that compared
to the positive vision that Scripture gives? The big idea
is that this biblical financial vision is not about a
someday that I should achieve with good planning, but about today,
where I'm in the presence of Christ, content and joyful
(07:09):
as I'm toiling along in the life he's given me.
You know, there's this really popular idea out there called
fire or Financial Independence. Retire early. And, um, there's some
interesting ideas there. But also, I think there's a real danger.
I used to really think this way. And it's if
I can slave away hard enough, live frugally enough, stockpile
enough money for 10 or 20 years, someday I'll own
(07:30):
my own time. I'll just kick back and do whatever
I want. It sounds attractive, but really it's a mirage,
because the human condition is to be oriented to a purpose,
to work. Now, am I saying you should, you know,
stay in a job that's miserable with an abusive boss
or whatever? No, of course not. But look, even if
you're retired, it's not. So you can sit on the
beach for 20 years. We're all made by God to
(07:52):
toil in a wholesome way, to work at accomplishing something
good and beautiful. And as we do that, to be
content and rejoice with gratitude as we do it. So
that vision of getting away from work forever, that's a
dream that ultimately won't satisfy our hearts.
S1 (08:06):
Oh, wow. Yeah, that is such a big idea. I'm
glad you called that out. Uh, John, in the study,
you offer another powerful insight that while many people today
are wealthy by historical standards, very few actually experience joy
in their prosperity. It's a striking observation, isn't it?
S2 (08:25):
It really is. And in the context of human history,
like you point out, especially in the developed world, we
live like royalty, an upper middle class family. Today, if
we've got air conditioning and cars and clean water and
food and an annual vacation and good housing, we're living
like European royalty from just 300 years ago. And yet
(08:45):
we're often anxious and stressed and unsatisfied. I was talking
with someone recently and the word billionaire came up and
he said, oh, I know lots of billionaires and I
wouldn't trade places with them. They're as unhappy as anyone else.
So clearly money isn't the answer in it's own. And
I'd say that's why this cycle of grateful living from
Scripture is so needed. It teaches us how to engage
(09:06):
with our wealth rather than just chase after more endlessly.
S1 (09:09):
Yeah. That's right. And the preacher in Ecclesiastes, I think
we believe at least, was King Solomon. So he speaks
with authority on this, doesn't he?
S2 (09:18):
That's right. He had plenty of of wealth and the
opportunity to enjoy it, but didn't find satisfaction there.
S1 (09:24):
Yeah. That's right. Now, John, you also draw a connection
between the wisdom of Ecclesiastes and Jesus teaching in Luke 12.
I'd love for you to spend a minute or so
unpacking that for us.
S2 (09:34):
Sure. Well, in Luke 12 it's a great financial chapter.
And Jesus reminds us there of the birds and the flowers.
They don't worry and yet their needs are met. And
he points out that we're so much more valuable than
they are. And it's interesting because this is very comforting,
but also sobering. It's comforting because God is our provider
and he cares for us in the days that he's
ordained for us on this earth. But it's also sobering because,
(09:57):
like flowers and birds, we have a short life on
God's earth. Our time here is brief and it's going
to pass by. James actually says this in chapter one
of his letter. The rich will pass away like a
wild flower. So God provides for that wildflower generously. But
the time to bloom is short. So therefore, again, let's
enjoy God's provision while we're here. Accept our limitations and
(10:19):
the brevity of life and rejoice in our toil. And
let's walk with Christ faithfully for each precious short day
that he gives us.
S1 (10:26):
Yeah. That's right. John, let's go back for a moment
to verse 20. I'm going to read it for us.
It says he will not much remember the days of
his life, because God keeps him occupied with the joy
in his heart. What does that kind of life look like,
in your view and practical terms?
S2 (10:44):
Well, I love this verse and it's a challenge to
me personally, but I think it looks like presence, like
a low anxiety life. Remember that image of the birds, right.
They're not anxious about tomorrow. They're just living their happy
little bird lives, trusting in God's provision. So I have
a grateful heart. It's too full and happily busy to
obsess over regrets or compare to others, or get anxious
about financial uncertainties. So personally, whenever I get too spun
(11:08):
up over the geopolitical environment or a work deadline or
where my retirement account balance is, I try to step
back and say, no, no, let's invite Jesus Christ into
this moment. I want to ask his help to help
me do that cycle again, to enjoy God's gifts, accept
life's brevity, and rejoice in my toil, because it's a
remarkable privilege to be alive in this moment, to have
(11:30):
even the opportunity to toil. Ecclesiastes points out that every
previous generation, their turn has come and gone on this earth.
But we're still here. It's our turn right now to
honor God as we look to an eternity of hope
in Christ. Up ahead. So let's not spin our wheels
in stress. Let's be content like those birds. Like those
flowers in the precious moment. Sustained by the generous hand
(11:51):
of God, and able to joyfully engage in the tasks
that he puts in front of us. That's the kind
of life that God longs for us to live.
S1 (11:58):
Yeah, John, as we begin to wrap up here, I'd
love for you to share just kind of any practical
rhythms you've put in place in your life, um, as
you've obviously done a deep dive into Ecclesiastes and really
processed this at a philosophical level. Is there anything that
kind of comes to mind that you've done that has
(12:19):
been helpful to you?
S2 (12:20):
You know, one thing that's really struck me is contentment,
not just on the level of, here's the amount of
financial provision I have. Let me be content with it.
But actually contentment in a much larger, almost call it
a whole life sense. Um, you know, I'm part of
the generation. I'm a millennial and we grew up being told,
Work hard, dream big. You can do anything. You can
(12:41):
be anything. You can be president. You can be an astronaut.
And part of the wisdom of Ecclesiastes, in embracing our
lot or embracing the limits of our life, is to
really recognize that there's a smallness to our life. And
and that's different to think in those terms. But Christ
is the one who's big and great and eternal and glorious.
(13:03):
I'm actually really small, and I'm not going to be
here on this earth for long. But in the days
he's given me, let me glorify him and live in
that kind of contentment. And that actually helps me avoid, uh,
kind of that discontentment of, well, my life should have
turned out for more. I could have accomplished more and
been more. Say, no, actually, Christ has accomplished it all.
(13:24):
And if he's put me here, I'm going to glorify
him and let that be enough for me.
S1 (13:28):
Well, yeah, that's well said. And I guess the bottom
line is, John, that when we when we choose to
be grateful, we can enjoy God's provision and and accept
life's brevity and then rejoice in our toil. Right.
S2 (13:39):
That is that cycle of grateful living.
S1 (13:42):
Wow. Yeah. That's powerful. Well, unfortunately, we're out of time,
so we're going to have to have you back. But
I really appreciate your time today and the work you
did on Wisdom Over Wealth. It's an incredible resource. I
can't wait for our listeners to get their hands on it.
Thanks for being here.
S2 (13:56):
Thanks for having me on, Rob.
S1 (13:57):
That was our friend and author, John Cortinez. If you'd
like to dive deeper into the joy of living a
grateful life, check out our new study, Wisdom Over Wealth
this month. When you give a gift of $35 or more,
we'll send you a copy as our way of saying
thank you for supporting the ministry. Go to faith. That's faith. FIA.
(14:20):
Back with your questions after this. Stick around.
S3 (14:28):
The opinions offered during this program represent the personal or
professional opinions of the participants given for information only. Any
information provided is not intended to replace advice from a financial, medical,
legal or other professional who understands your specific situation.
S1 (14:52):
Great to have you with us today on faith in finance.
We're so glad that you're along with us today and
looking forward to taking your calls and questions today. We
realize there's probably some things on your mind and your
financial life, and we'd love to tackle them with you.
So if you want to call right now, we do
have some lines open. We're ready to take those calls
at five, two, five, 7000. Again, that number is 805,
(15:14):
two five 7000. We'll try to get you on the
air quickly here on a Friday as you round out
the week. Also coming up a little later in the broadcast,
Jerry Bowyer stops by. We'll get Jerry's take on the
markets that are really doing quite well. We're, uh, bumping
up against each day this week. Record highs on the
(15:35):
S&P 500, which is just amazing, just given where we
were a short time ago. Uh, well, actually I'm looking
at the close now in the S&P 500 and absolutely,
it was a record. And that's on the heels of
so many things going on geopolitically. The conflict, of course,
between Israel and Iran and then the U.S. involvement. We've
(15:58):
got tariffs, uh, China confirming the details and, and the
deal with the US on trade and tariffs. A lot
going on in the markets today. And all of that
is pushing the markets higher. Jerry will weigh in on
what we can make of all of that. And where
might this economy be headed from here. But in the
meantime we're open for your calls and questions. Again. Lines
(16:20):
are open 800 525 7000 is the number to call.
Let's head to the phones. We're going to begin in Georgia. Rhonda,
you'll be our first caller. Go ahead.
S4 (16:29):
Yes. Thanks for having me. Um, I have kind of, like,
a two part question. I'm gonna try to see if
I can ask it all in one breath.
S1 (16:38):
All right. Go ahead.
S4 (16:40):
Yes. So my spouse and I are living in an
inherited home with my mother in law. Um, but it's
creating family tension, and we'd like to move out this year. Um,
there are three people on the deed, um, myself, my
husband and my mother in law. Um, how can we
protect our future financial future when it comes to the property? Um,
(17:01):
you know, if we were to go ahead and move out.
And then also, um, I'm paying down a repossession, um,
and I would, um, and I want to get a
better deal if I try to consolidate that debt. I
want to know if I, you know, what to do
with this repossession in the midst of the other thing
going on.
S1 (17:21):
Okay. Yeah. And so the repossession is on an automobile,
is that right?
S4 (17:26):
Yes. I've been paying little small amounts on it, but
I haven't like, you know, did any type of deal
with them on that part. So I'm kind of like
unsure of what to do.
S1 (17:37):
Okay. Let's deal with that separately. Going back to the
home for a second. Um, you know, if all three
of you are listed on the deed, that means you
each have a legal interest in the property. So the
first step would be to clarify the ownership type. Unless,
you know, is it joint tenancy or what's called tenants
in common?
S4 (18:00):
Not that I'm aware of.
S1 (18:02):
Okay. Uh, okay. So you need to find that out
because that's going to have a lot to do. Um,
you know, with the the ownership type is going to
be a key part of you understanding what's going to
happen upon the sale. Um, so joint tenancy with right
of survivorship just means that if one owner dies, their
(18:23):
share goes to the other. Tenancy in common is where
each person has a specific share. So when one dies there,
their share goes to their heirs, not the other owners,
and then tenancy by the entirety. That's for married couples only,
so that wouldn't apply. What was the intention by having
your mother in law on the deed? Was she a
(18:44):
party to the original purchase or what is everybody's understanding
about the ownership structure?
S4 (18:51):
Well, um, my husband, um, they, my husband and my
mother in law started out on the deed alone, um,
because they inherited from, um, her mom and his grandmother.
And then they added me. We had to go and
do paperwork, and they added me on to the deed, um,
as well as just the wife. So, um, they have more,
(19:12):
you know, connections with the inheritance than I do, but
they do respect, you know, things that, you know, I'm
involved with, with the home as well. Um, at this time.
S1 (19:23):
So when the inheritance was distributed from the estate of
the family member that passed away. Was it was this
property left to your husband and his mom? Your mother
in law? Equally.
S4 (19:38):
It was.
S1 (19:39):
Okay. So I would imagine that the way that you know,
that everybody's thinking about that is if we have a property,
let's just for simple terms, say it's worth 100,000 and
it's it's then passed equally to your husband and his mom.
Now you they each have a 50% ownership of that property.
And then he marries you. And now you and him
(20:01):
share 50%. And your mother in law has the other 50%.
Do you believe that's the understanding of how this property
is owned? And who is entitled to what? Or are
you thinking it's something different than that?
S4 (20:15):
Um, well, I know in the will it did say
that if something were to happen, I guess, to the
inherited parties at this time, then, like the kids. We
have kids. Um, my my husband is an only child, so, um,
his mom doesn't have any other kids but his kids.
Our kids, it would pass down to them. Um, it's
how they had it on, like her estate or whatever.
(20:37):
Like that. So.
S1 (20:38):
Okay. Yeah. But that generally, unless it's a trust where
this is owned by a trust, um, generally what happens
with that is, um, the property would be left and
the will creates a provision so that if your husband
passed away before this family member passed away, then it
would go to his kids. Um, but once you know,
(20:59):
if it's a will we're talking about, once the home
passes 50% to your husband, 50% to his mom, then
he is now the steward of 50%. She's the steward
of the other 50%. The estate of the previous family
member no longer applies. And so now it's just up
to your husband as to what he wants to do
with this 50%. Um, let's do this. I've got to
(21:22):
take a break. We'll continue to unpack this. And then
I also want to talk about that repossession and see
if we can give you a path forward on that.
Because I know these are important questions. They're good ones
and they can be complicated too. So we'll get to
the bottom of it. Uh, Rhonda, you stay right there
and we'll come right back to you. Folks, we do
have some lines open. We'll continue to take your calls
in the next segment. So go ahead and call right
(21:43):
now if you have a financial question. 800 525 7000.
We'll be right back. Great to have you with us
today on Faith in finance. Live here on Moody Radio.
We've got a few lines open. You can call right
now 800 525 7000. Uh, before the break, we were
(22:05):
talking to Rhonda in Georgia. She and her husband live
in an inherited home with their mother in law. Uh,
her husband and his mom inherited the property, uh, from
another family member, and they're about to move out and and,
you know, they're no longer going to be living together. Um,
(22:26):
all three of them, according to Rhonda's understanding, are on
the deed. I think the key is to as I
was sharing with her during the break to make sure
there's clear communication and expectations. It starts with she and
her husband sitting down and saying, what was our expectation?
I mean, if this was left from a family member
to her husband and to his mom as 50% owners,
(22:49):
well then the intention was her husband and now Rhonda
as a as her, his spouse owned 50% and his
mom owns 50%. And as long as everybody agrees on that,
it's pretty simple. If there was an understanding that, you know,
perhaps it was owned one third, one third, one third, well,
that just needs to be cleared up. And the last
thing you'd want to do would be to go into
a sale like that without clear expectations. There's the legal
(23:13):
ownership of the property, and then there's the expectation based
on how it was received by way of inheritance, what
the intention was on the part of the deceased. Um,
and then how those monies are split upon the sale, and,
and Rhonda's going to chat with her husband about that
and then sit down with his mother in law, the
three of them, to kind of talk it through and
make sure they're all on the same page. Now, the
(23:34):
second part of her question was related to a repossession,
an automobile at the time she was dealing with some
other things, didn't engage with the lender. And what happens
is that after repossession, Rhonda, as you know, the lender
sells the car. And if it's sold for less than
what you owed, you're responsible for what's called the deficiency balance.
(23:55):
And then you have two main options. And I know
this gets to the heart of your question. How do
I approach this? Well, if you have the ability to
make a lump sum payment, that would be great because
you could engage the collection, uh, you know, agency, whoever
owns the the remaining balance and negotiate a settlement that's
(24:15):
less than the full amount. But that generally is going
to require you to have the ability to make, you know,
write a single check with a lump sum, and you
might be able to get $0.50 on the dollar, $0.60
on the dollar, something like that. But be sure you
get any deal in writing before you pay a penny.
The second option is if a lump sum isn't available,
(24:35):
well then you would want to ask them perhaps to
get on a payment plan. Just make sure it's something
you can afford. But I think either way resolving it
is wise. That's going to help to avoid lawsuits and
slowly rebuild your credit. Does that make sense?
S4 (24:51):
Yes.
S1 (24:52):
Okay, so I think those are your next steps. I
hope that's helpful. Call anytime and we appreciate you being
on the broadcast today. Uh, Nashville, Tennessee is where we're
headed next. Hi, Jeff. Go ahead.
S5 (25:03):
Hi, Rob. Appreciate the heart of your ministry. And, um,
this question hopefully isn't as heavy as the world stage
right now. So all that to say is, uh, several
years ago, my son and his wife needed some money
to build a tiny house. They built it themselves, and
we put about $6,500 into that project for them. And
now they're selling it for a loss for their third
(25:28):
parties buying it. He took a loan out and basically, um,
the money they received, they're paying us back for the
loan that we gave them. So it's a net loss
of about 3000. So my two questions were one, is
there any type of, uh, sales tax event that we
need to pay anybody on either end? Um, and is
there any personal tax ramification for my son who's giving
(25:52):
us the money back or for us receiving it? Is
it just an investment loss, or is it something different?
S1 (25:59):
Yeah, yeah. Got it. Uh, no, there should not be
any sales tax due on the property. Um, it just
that doesn't apply here. Uh, unless it's classified as a vehicle. Um,
you know, so if the tiny home is on wheels
or titled as an RV or a trailer, the DMV
could charge sales tax. But, uh, you know, if it's
(26:21):
on land and treat it as real estate, then, you know,
there's no sales tax. Um, in that typical sense, um,
with regard to, you know, income tax, the only thing
that could possibly be is capital gain. But in this case,
we've got a $2,000 loss. So there would be no
tax due, uh, because it's a personal use property. Uh,
(26:44):
he doesn't get to deduct that. Uh, but the bottom
line is, it doesn't sound like there'd be any tax
due on this whatsoever.
S5 (26:52):
Awesome. So tiny house, tiny loss.
S1 (26:54):
Yeah. Unfortunately, uh, hopefully it served its purpose, though. And
maybe now they can move on to something better.
S5 (27:01):
They did. And thank you, Rob, for your time. Have
a great weekend and a good 4th of July.
S1 (27:05):
Well, and you as well, Jeff, and thanks for your
kind remarks about the program, sir. God bless you. Uh.
To Illinois. Deborah, how can we help you?
S6 (27:13):
Hi, Rob. Thanks for taking my call. You're a blessing.
And we were blessed by my oldest son and his
wife with our first granddaughter. Oh, wow.
S1 (27:24):
Congratulations.
S6 (27:26):
Thank you. Um, so I'm just. You had mentioned some plans,
like a college fund, um, versus, uh, some other type of, uh, holding,
you know, to save money for the child to go
to college. And I just wanted to hear your discussion
on that.
S1 (27:45):
Yeah, absolutely. So the best tool, I think, uh, for
a lot of reasons, is what's called the 529 college
savings plan. Uh, you know, it's really, um, a great
vehicle because it essentially acts like a Roth IRA, but
they're easy to set up. Every state has one, and
(28:06):
you can contribute essentially as much as you want, and
you can do as little as you want to. So
you would basically fund it either with a lump sum
or you could do it, you know, over time they've
got a nice menu generally of investments to choose from
that allow you to basically like a 401 K, you just,
you know, pick your investment strategy based on age based
(28:29):
approach generally. And and then as long as the money
is used for qualified educational expenses, um, then you'd have
the ability to pull the money out that you put in, um,
plus any gains, uh, tax free. Uh, so you put
in after tax dollars, it grows in the investments and
(28:49):
then you pull it out tax free. Now, those qualified expenses, uh,
are what, you know, the IRS allows you to pull
the money from. And that would be, you know, tuition
and fees, room and board, books and supplies, even computers
and software, if it's used for school, up to 10,000
K to 12 tuition if they go to a private school,
even up to 10,000 in student loan repayments. So, you know,
(29:13):
there are some some great options there. And you don't
have to use the, you know, the State of Illinois plan,
although they have a good one. It's called bright start.
It's known for high ratings and low fees. But you
know the top one right now in terms of return
I think is Maryland. And then Alaska is right behind it.
I think West Virginia is is very good. There's a
(29:34):
great website called Savingforcollege.com. And if you go there you
can read about the 529. You can even kind of
run some scenarios and some projections on based on the
type of school your grandchildren may want to go to,
how much you might want to save, and it will
suggest the best plans. Um, but I think, uh, you know,
(29:56):
depending on the benefits of the potential in-state tax deduction
there in Illinois, which could be significant because you all
have higher taxes. Um, you may want to go outside
of Illinois, but Savingforcollege.com will help you evaluate the higher
performance you might get elsewhere against any in-state tax benefits
(30:18):
there in Illinois. Does that make sense?
S6 (30:20):
Yes it does. And then I hear the music. But
what's the alternative to a college saving plan?
S1 (30:27):
Yeah. Good question. All right, let's do this. Um, I'd
love to weigh in on that, but I don't want
to run short here on time. So you stay right there,
and we'll tackle that right after this short break. So
just hang on the line. Uh, we'll be headed to
Winter Haven after this to talk to Tami and maybe
your question. We'll be right back. Hey, thanks for joining
(30:53):
us today on Faith and Finance Live. I'm Rob West.
We're taking your calls and questions today. Uh, we'll be
headed to Jerry Boyer here in just a moment. Jerry
will weigh in on the markets and the economy, and
we'll try to get to a few more questions as well.
Before the break, we were talking to Deborah in Illinois.
She has a new granddaughter, which is amazing and she
wants to make like an awesome grandmother some contributions to
(31:14):
a college savings plan, which I love that. Um, so
there's the 529, which is generally my preferred option. If
you think, you know, you want to earmark it specifically
for college because it acts like a Roth, you get
the tax free growth as long as you use the
money for qualified educational expenses. There's high contribution limits, pretty
easy to pick the investment choices, which most people like.
(31:38):
It's kind of like a 401 K. You kind of
have a menu there. And some states offer tax deductions,
which could be helpful in a state like Illinois where
Deborah is calling from. The other options would be, um,
the old education savings account. It's called a Coverdell education.
It's basically like a college IRA. And so you can
put in up to $2,000 a year. So there are
(32:01):
contribution limits if you're wanting to put it more than that,
this would not be a good option. Um, and you
get the tax free growth just like the 529, but
you have basically unlimited investment options like an IRA. So
if you want more investment flexibility, like if you wanted
to use some faith based investments, well, the Coverdell would
(32:21):
be a great option for you. Just know you're going
to have that $2,000 limit. The custodial account might be
another option. I don't like that just because the the
child gains control at the age of majority, and if
there are spiritual or financial maturity is not there, they
could use the money however they want at that point
and you may not agree with it. So I kind
of like you having a little bit more control, especially
(32:43):
for really young grandchildren, just given the unknowns about where
we're going to be in the future. And then I
would probably not use a Roth IRA or a prepaid
tuition plan. So I think either the Coverdell or the
529 would be the best options.
S6 (32:58):
All right. Great. Thank you for your help with this.
S1 (33:00):
You are so welcome. Congrats on that new granddaughter. And, uh,
call us back anytime. Well, Jerry Bowyer is here, and
there's a lot going on in the markets today, including China,
confirming the details of the US trade. Uh, however, on
the not so good trade talks, apparently Trump has ended
all trade talks with Canada. So, Jerry, you never know
(33:22):
what a day will bring, do you?
S7 (33:24):
No, it's not exactly stable leadership. Uh, although generally it
ends up going in the right direction. So, you know,
Providence has been merciful to us, um, in that regard. But, um,
you know, probably it's better to, you know, have the
trade deal with China than it is with Canada. So,
(33:44):
you know, why you saying that? Because we do a
lot of business with Canada. Yeah, but you know we're
going to work it out eventually, you know. Right. China
maybe that ends up in World War three. We're probably
not going to get World War three with Canada. And
if we do, I like our chances. Um, so I
think I think that generally markets are liking the fact that,
you know, we have a deal with China that that
(34:04):
deal involves that we're going to export more to them
because they've been very protectionist. They haven't really behaved very
well in terms of trade. I mean, it's it's one
thing I'm an advocate of free trade. I want more trade.
China's pretty manipulative in its trade practices. And one of
the tricky little things it does because with these global
trade agreements, sometimes they have these deals where, well, we're
(34:25):
not going to stop you from, you know, we're going
to limit the amount of import control that you'll do. Right.
So China pulled an interesting trick. They said, well, we're
going to do export control. Well everyone wants to export.
So it's like, well why would you do that China.
Why would you cut your exports. Well we're going to
cut our exports of rare earth minerals. Why. Because you
(34:45):
need them. So the only way you can get access
to our rare earth minerals is not to buy them
and take them from us. It's to build factories here
in China and use them here. Yeah. So we'll export
the rare earth minerals only if they're embedded in cell
phones already. So that was a way they kind of
forced a lot of manufacturing, some of that high value
manufacturing into China. Well, you know, they're going to be
(35:08):
exporting that to us. So that's a good thing. Um,
and I don't think they should afforded it. I think God,
God gave some countries a lot of oil. He gave
some countries a lot of ability to grow soybeans. And
he gave some countries these rare earth minerals. And we
ought to be trading with one another. He was generous
to us all, and we ought to be exchanging and
China trying to kind of manipulated the gift of God
with these important minerals into essentially, um, kind of forcing
(35:32):
in manufacturing into the country, um, and away from other places. Uh,
so that that ended up in a good place. Uh,
so I'm happy about that. Um, and also, you know,
we're dropping we're not going to do the crazy heavy
tariffs on China. Um, and people might think, well, we
should be tariffing them. Well, the problem is that when
we tariff China, they tariff us back. That's a trade war.
(35:54):
You know, if we went into this thinking that, well,
all we have to do is take a hard line
with these countries and they'll just take it. But the
things that we do to them, they do back to us.
And that's what we learned. I hope we all learned
one thing. One point of economics in this is that
there's no one sided trade war. If a nation launches
a trade war, there's a trade war in response. And
(36:17):
that's why markets did so poorly earlier this year. But
the president ended up, I think, in a pretty good place.
He wants more trade. More trade is good for everybody.
And I think that's why markets are so high. I
think we'll work it out with Canada. But if we
all have to have a little less maple syrup for,
you know, a year or so probably wouldn't, won't do
us any harm.
S1 (36:36):
Oh, Jerry, uh, what about, uh, you know, the big,
beautiful bill that the president is pushing so hard for?
He had a big event on the at the white
House yesterday. He's calling for it, almost demanding it by
July the 4th. Um, what is your assessment of the
current state of that bill? and maybe nobody knows what
the current state is. But just in terms of I
(36:57):
know you've been very positive on the tax cuts, what
about everything else? And what directionally will that bill take
us toward with regard to ultimately getting our fiscal house
in order?
S7 (37:10):
Well, the issue with having full bill is you put
everything into one bill, right? And so it's going to
be a mix of good and bad. By the way,
I don't really think that's a great way to do legislation.
I think that in general, good legislative practice should be
that a bill is about a topic. So what the
president has done is said, everything that I want goes
on one bill. It's gigantic. And you have to vote
(37:31):
up or down against me. I don't think that's what
the founders had in mind. That having been said, I
think generally the bill is going in the right direction.
It has some nice tax cuts. It has a spending cut,
which I like. So, you know, and that is the
Medicaid cut. Now I don't want to cut off people
who are in need. I don't think we should do that.
I think we need a social safety net. But we've
(37:52):
gotten into a situation where there are a lot of
able bodied people, a lot of young men in particular,
who don't have to work because they're paid to not work.
They get free health care. They get other kinds of
benefits for not working. That's created a worker shortage. We're
not going to have we're not going to be a
great economy until people who can work, work. That's addressed
in the Bible, by the way. Paul has that as
(38:14):
a principle. He had to teach the early church that.
So now we have to teach America that. So some
of these things that say that you're not going to
be able we're not going to reward you for not working.
We're getting rid of some of those. And I think
that's a good thing. The spending is too high. It
just is too high. I mean, eventually we're going to
pay the price for that. Uh, you know that I
think that we've been moving towards the possibility of some
(38:37):
kind of debt crisis. Uh, I think we have some
more time, but we don't have infinite time. In general,
the pro-growth aspects of this bill, I think, are worth it.
If I were in Congress, I'd hold my nose and
sign the sign. The thing. Uh, but I we really
do need to deal with the with the spending issue
and the borrowing issue. And, frankly, we are not with
(38:59):
a big, beautiful bill, so it's only a little bit beautiful.
It's a bill with beautiful parts. It is a bill.
It's partly beautiful. It's certainly big. I think anyone has
to agree with that.
S1 (39:10):
There's no doubt about that. All right. Very good. Uh, Jerry,
just in terms of the overall health of the economy,
I mean, we got another inflation reading. It ticked up, uh,
you know, who knows what's going to happen with the
fed and whether or not the president's going to try
to undermine Jerome Powell with the appointment of a essentially
a fed chairman in waiting. Um, just put a bow
(39:32):
on the the rest of the economy as you evaluate it.
S7 (39:35):
Well, I'm with the fed chairman on this. Um, I mean,
I wouldn't fire the fed chairman. I might fire the fed. Uh,
but I wouldn't fire the fed chairman. We can question
whether anyone ought to have that much power, but frankly,
I don't think he ought to be pushed around by
the president. I don't think he the president wants him
to cut rates, which is kind of fed, speak for,
create more monetary stimulus, print more dollars and flood them
(39:57):
into the system. But inflation is already above our target rate.
I don't think we've beaten inflation. And we do have
higher tariffs. Even though we've mostly ended the trade war,
we haven't completely ended it. And that's an increase in prices.
Of course it's an increase in prices. It's not even
a side effect. That's what tariffs are for. Tariffs are
designed to increase the price of foreign competitors so that
(40:20):
Americans can charge more. Price increases are the intent of tariffs.
So we're probably going to get some price increases. So
I don't think the central bank ought to make it
worse by monetary stimulus. And if the president really believes
the big beautiful bill is going to give us a
golden age, and that where we are with tariffs and
the trade deals are just the best trade deals ever,
(40:41):
maybe best in the history of the human race, then great.
Why are we, you know, Flacking here for monetary stimulus.
If we've got the right tax package and we've got
the right trade package, those things give us a good economy.
Why are we asking the fed to, you know, to
pour caffeine into the water? Um, good economic policy shouldn't
require stimulus plans from the central bank.
S1 (41:03):
Yeah, well, it makes sense. And you've been consistent on
that for a long time. And hopefully that message gets through.
We'll see. Um, any any ideas on where he's going
to go with the next fed chairman?
S7 (41:15):
A loyalist? Maybe some friends of mine. Uh, but somebody
who's very committed, who Trump is absolutely confident is going
to do what he wants. So either somebody who is
very politically loyal or somebody who's just in favor of
easy money. You know, someone who's a rate cutter. I'm
seeing a lot of folks out there. Some of them
pals of mine, people that I generally agree with who
(41:36):
are out there saying, oh, we need a rate cut. Who?
I think if it were Biden asking for the rate cut,
or were Obama asking for the rate cut, or Clinton
might not be saying the same thing. But since the
president is looking for a new fed chairman, all all
these supply siders now all of a sudden think we
need to debase the currency a little bit. So probably
(41:58):
someone pretty loyal and maybe of somewhat flexible principles shouldn't
be hard to find.
S1 (42:04):
All right. We'll keep our eyes on it. Jerry. Thanks
for your time, as always.
S7 (42:07):
My pleasure.
S1 (42:08):
All right. That's Jerry Bowyer, our resident economist. Hey, before
we wrap up here today, just real quick, we are
12 partners away from reaching our year end goal, which
is three days away. Why? Why year in? Well, we're
on a fiscal calendar, so June the 30th is the
end of our year at Faith fi. Would you help
us get there? If you love the program, you'd be
(42:29):
you'd consider becoming a partner. We could use 12 more
of you. Just go to Faith. Thanks in advance. Faith
is a partnership between Moody Radio and Faith fi. Thank
you to Jim, Lisa, Rihanna and Dan. Have a great weekend.
Everyone also to whom God has given wealth and possessions
and the power to enjoy them, and to accept his
lot and rejoice in his toil. This is the gift
of God. Ecclesiastes 519. Hi, I'm Rob West. What a
true joy doesn't come from gaining more, but from gratefully
receiving what God has already provided. Today, John Cortinez joins
(00:29):
us to explore what he calls the cycle of grateful living,
how it transforms our approach to money and contentment. And
then it's on to your calls at 800, 500, 25, 7000.
This is faith and finance. Live. Biblical wisdom for your
financial journey. Well, I always love having John Cortinez in
(00:52):
the studio. He's the director of Grant making at the
MacLellan Foundation, also the co-author of God and Money and
True Riches. He's also the author of Faith for his
new study on the book of Ecclesiastes, Wisdom over Wealth. Jon,
great to have you back with us.
S2 (01:07):
Thanks for having me, Rob.
S1 (01:08):
Today we're returning to wisdom over Wealth to explore what
you call John the cycle of grateful living and how
embracing it can truly be life changing. Give us some
context to this as we get started.
S2 (01:22):
Well, Cheri, you know, it was such a joy to
dig into Ecclesiastes. And as I was studying that book
and reading commentaries, especially with an eye toward faith in
our finances, I kept coming back to Ecclesiastes 518 through 20.
You just read verse 19. After a lot of study,
I've really come to view these as critically important verses.
Ecclesiastes has so much to say about our search for
(01:44):
meaning and contentment in life, and these verses come right
in the middle of the longest meditation on money, and
they reflect on what it means to enjoy the life
that God has actually given us. So we're told that
it's good and fitting to eat and drink and find
satisfaction in our work. But the key is that even
the ability to enjoy what we have, that is a
gift from God too. So just to look at those
(02:06):
three verses very quickly, at an overview level, verse 18
shows us what's good for everyone if I'm rich. If
I'm poor. Finding joy in my everyday life and labor
is good. Verse 19 introduces the idea that wealth is
a gift, not just the possessions and the money, but
even the power to enjoy that gift. If we're alive
and mentally present enough to enjoy something, then that's a
(02:28):
gift from God. During our short life on earth. And
verse 20 gives us the result of this mindset If
I'm living this way, God will keep me occupied with joy,
not with worry or regret.
S1 (02:40):
Yeah, John, I think this is such an important idea.
You know, the the idea that money is a good
gift from God. It's something he created. And it's for
in part our enjoyment. I think we can miss that
in our understanding that, you know, money is dangerous, which
it is. And so we have to be on our guard.
But this enjoyment factor, I think, is often overlooked. Do
(03:03):
you see that?
S2 (03:04):
I do. You know, it's it's something that, uh, you know,
all of Scripture is there for our edification and benefit.
And Ecclesiastes provides such a powerful witness to that, that,
of course, wealth is a temptation and a danger. That's
clear in Scripture. But also, just like you said, it's
a gift from God, and he loves to bless his children. Yeah.
So I'd love to walk through that cycle of grateful living,
(03:25):
if that sounds good.
S1 (03:26):
Let's do that.
S2 (03:27):
So, um, you know, when we look at that verse 19,
it gives us a pattern that I have an acronym
for that we use in the study, which is to
e a t, which of course spells eat. That seems
appropriate in a book that tells us to remember joy
in our eating and drinking. But in this case, we're
we're saying that stands for enjoy. Except toil. Eat. Okay. Um,
(03:47):
and so e is enjoy God's provision. Just like we're saying,
we begin by recognizing that everything we have is a gift.
Not just our wealth, but even the ability to enjoy
it if we have health or freedom or relationships. These
are a gift from God that makes enjoying his gifts
and creation and provision possible. So that's to enjoy. A
is accept life's brevity. The second step is to accept
(04:11):
our lot our few days of life, our current season
of life, even the limitations that we face. Ecclesiastes meditates
on death a whole lot because it's wanting us to
recognize that life is short. And when we recognize this,
it gives us a greater sense of purpose in the
precious few years that we get on earth. And then finally,
T is to toil with joy, because Ecclesiastes does call
(04:35):
us to rejoice in our work, and we often dream
of escaping work through wealth. But Ecclesiastes tells us that
proper joy is found in our toil, not escaping from it.
S1 (04:47):
That is so good, John. Well, I can't wait to
unpack this a bit more as we begin to talk
about this cycle of grateful living, specifically what gets in
the way. And for those of us who have been
blessed with much, and I would say everyone listening to
this broadcast and the most prosperous nation in the history
of the world, if we have more than we need,
(05:07):
we've been blessed with much. But why does Joy get
choked out so often in that? We're talking today with
John Cortinez. He's the author of a new study on Ecclesiastes,
Wisdom over Wealth. We're talking the cycle of grateful living,
and we'll continue just around the corner. We're just getting started.
Stay with us. So glad to have you with us
(05:32):
today on faith and finance. Live with me today in
studio is John Cortinez. He's director of grantmaking at the
MacLellan Foundation, is the co-author of God and Money in
the book True Riches. He's also the author of Faith
Buys Brand New Ecclesiastes study. It's called Wisdom over Wealth.
I can't wait for you to get your hands on it.
If you want to do that, just head to faith.com.
(05:54):
You can order it. Today we're diving into one aspect
of wisdom over wealth what John calls in the study
the cycle of grateful living. And he unpacked that around
an acronym e t to enjoy God's provision, accept life's
brevity and toil with joy. And, uh, John, it's safe
(06:17):
to say that most of us wrestle at times with
feeling truly grateful or joyful in the rhythms of daily life.
What do you think tends to get in the way
for most of us?
S2 (06:26):
Well, you know, if Ecclesiastes calls us to enjoy provision
except life's brevity and rejoice in our toil, I think
it's interesting to say what would be the opposite? I
could take God's provision for granted, forgetting to be content
and grateful. I could never think about how precious and
short life is, and I just trudge along day by
day and not give it much thought. And I can
complain and bicker about my toil and my work, dreaming
(06:48):
about some far off day when I can escape the
rat race. Yeah, but really, how miserable is that compared
to the positive vision that Scripture gives? The big idea
is that this biblical financial vision is not about a
someday that I should achieve with good planning, but about today,
where I'm in the presence of Christ, content and joyful
(07:09):
as I'm toiling along in the life he's given me.
You know, there's this really popular idea out there called
fire or Financial Independence. Retire early. And, um, there's some
interesting ideas there. But also, I think there's a real danger.
I used to really think this way. And it's if
I can slave away hard enough, live frugally enough, stockpile
enough money for 10 or 20 years, someday I'll own
(07:30):
my own time. I'll just kick back and do whatever
I want. It sounds attractive, but really it's a mirage,
because the human condition is to be oriented to a purpose,
to work. Now, am I saying you should, you know,
stay in a job that's miserable with an abusive boss
or whatever? No, of course not. But look, even if
you're retired, it's not. So you can sit on the
beach for 20 years. We're all made by God to
(07:52):
toil in a wholesome way, to work at accomplishing something
good and beautiful. And as we do that, to be
content and rejoice with gratitude as we do it. So
that vision of getting away from work forever, that's a
dream that ultimately won't satisfy our hearts.
S1 (08:06):
Oh, wow. Yeah, that is such a big idea. I'm
glad you called that out. Uh, John, in the study,
you offer another powerful insight that while many people today
are wealthy by historical standards, very few actually experience joy
in their prosperity. It's a striking observation, isn't it?
S2 (08:25):
It really is. And in the context of human history,
like you point out, especially in the developed world, we
live like royalty, an upper middle class family. Today, if
we've got air conditioning and cars and clean water and
food and an annual vacation and good housing, we're living
like European royalty from just 300 years ago. And yet
(08:45):
we're often anxious and stressed and unsatisfied. I was talking
with someone recently and the word billionaire came up and
he said, oh, I know lots of billionaires and I
wouldn't trade places with them. They're as unhappy as anyone else.
So clearly money isn't the answer in it's own. And
I'd say that's why this cycle of grateful living from
Scripture is so needed. It teaches us how to engage
(09:06):
with our wealth rather than just chase after more endlessly.
S1 (09:09):
Yeah. That's right. And the preacher in Ecclesiastes, I think
we believe at least, was King Solomon. So he speaks
with authority on this, doesn't he?
S2 (09:18):
That's right. He had plenty of of wealth and the
opportunity to enjoy it, but didn't find satisfaction there.
S1 (09:24):
Yeah. That's right. Now, John, you also draw a connection
between the wisdom of Ecclesiastes and Jesus teaching in Luke 12.
I'd love for you to spend a minute or so
unpacking that for us.
S2 (09:34):
Sure. Well, in Luke 12 it's a great financial chapter.
And Jesus reminds us there of the birds and the flowers.
They don't worry and yet their needs are met. And
he points out that we're so much more valuable than
they are. And it's interesting because this is very comforting,
but also sobering. It's comforting because God is our provider
and he cares for us in the days that he's
ordained for us on this earth. But it's also sobering because,
(09:57):
like flowers and birds, we have a short life on
God's earth. Our time here is brief and it's going
to pass by. James actually says this in chapter one
of his letter. The rich will pass away like a
wild flower. So God provides for that wildflower generously. But
the time to bloom is short. So therefore, again, let's
enjoy God's provision while we're here. Accept our limitations and
(10:19):
the brevity of life and rejoice in our toil. And
let's walk with Christ faithfully for each precious short day
that he gives us.
S1 (10:26):
Yeah. That's right. John, let's go back for a moment
to verse 20. I'm going to read it for us.
It says he will not much remember the days of
his life, because God keeps him occupied with the joy
in his heart. What does that kind of life look like,
in your view and practical terms?
S2 (10:44):
Well, I love this verse and it's a challenge to
me personally, but I think it looks like presence, like
a low anxiety life. Remember that image of the birds, right.
They're not anxious about tomorrow. They're just living their happy
little bird lives, trusting in God's provision. So I have
a grateful heart. It's too full and happily busy to
obsess over regrets or compare to others, or get anxious
about financial uncertainties. So personally, whenever I get too spun
(11:08):
up over the geopolitical environment or a work deadline or
where my retirement account balance is, I try to step
back and say, no, no, let's invite Jesus Christ into
this moment. I want to ask his help to help
me do that cycle again, to enjoy God's gifts, accept
life's brevity, and rejoice in my toil, because it's a
remarkable privilege to be alive in this moment, to have
(11:30):
even the opportunity to toil. Ecclesiastes points out that every
previous generation, their turn has come and gone on this earth.
But we're still here. It's our turn right now to
honor God as we look to an eternity of hope
in Christ. Up ahead. So let's not spin our wheels
in stress. Let's be content like those birds. Like those
flowers in the precious moment. Sustained by the generous hand
(11:51):
of God, and able to joyfully engage in the tasks
that he puts in front of us. That's the kind
of life that God longs for us to live.
S1 (11:58):
Yeah, John, as we begin to wrap up here, I'd
love for you to share just kind of any practical
rhythms you've put in place in your life, um, as
you've obviously done a deep dive into Ecclesiastes and really
processed this at a philosophical level. Is there anything that
kind of comes to mind that you've done that has
(12:19):
been helpful to you?
S2 (12:20):
You know, one thing that's really struck me is contentment,
not just on the level of, here's the amount of
financial provision I have. Let me be content with it.
But actually contentment in a much larger, almost call it
a whole life sense. Um, you know, I'm part of
the generation. I'm a millennial and we grew up being told,
Work hard, dream big. You can do anything. You can
(12:41):
be anything. You can be president. You can be an astronaut.
And part of the wisdom of Ecclesiastes, in embracing our
lot or embracing the limits of our life, is to
really recognize that there's a smallness to our life. And
and that's different to think in those terms. But Christ
is the one who's big and great and eternal and glorious.
(13:03):
I'm actually really small, and I'm not going to be
here on this earth for long. But in the days
he's given me, let me glorify him and live in
that kind of contentment. And that actually helps me avoid, uh,
kind of that discontentment of, well, my life should have
turned out for more. I could have accomplished more and
been more. Say, no, actually, Christ has accomplished it all.
(13:24):
And if he's put me here, I'm going to glorify
him and let that be enough for me.
S1 (13:28):
Well, yeah, that's well said. And I guess the bottom
line is, John, that when we when we choose to
be grateful, we can enjoy God's provision and and accept
life's brevity and then rejoice in our toil. Right.
S2 (13:39):
That is that cycle of grateful living.
S1 (13:42):
Wow. Yeah. That's powerful. Well, unfortunately, we're out of time,
so we're going to have to have you back. But
I really appreciate your time today and the work you
did on Wisdom Over Wealth. It's an incredible resource. I
can't wait for our listeners to get their hands on it.
Thanks for being here.
S2 (13:56):
Thanks for having me on, Rob.
S1 (13:57):
That was our friend and author, John Cortinez. If you'd
like to dive deeper into the joy of living a
grateful life, check out our new study, Wisdom Over Wealth
this month. When you give a gift of $35 or more,
we'll send you a copy as our way of saying
thank you for supporting the ministry. Go to faith. That's faith. FIA.
(14:20):
Back with your questions after this. Stick around.
S3 (14:28):
The opinions offered during this program represent the personal or
professional opinions of the participants given for information only. Any
information provided is not intended to replace advice from a financial, medical,
legal or other professional who understands your specific situation.
S1 (14:52):
Great to have you with us today on faith in finance.
We're so glad that you're along with us today and
looking forward to taking your calls and questions today. We
realize there's probably some things on your mind and your
financial life, and we'd love to tackle them with you.
So if you want to call right now, we do
have some lines open. We're ready to take those calls
at five, two, five, 7000. Again, that number is 805,
(15:14):
two five 7000. We'll try to get you on the
air quickly here on a Friday as you round out
the week. Also coming up a little later in the broadcast,
Jerry Bowyer stops by. We'll get Jerry's take on the
markets that are really doing quite well. We're, uh, bumping
up against each day this week. Record highs on the
(15:35):
S&P 500, which is just amazing, just given where we
were a short time ago. Uh, well, actually I'm looking
at the close now in the S&P 500 and absolutely,
it was a record. And that's on the heels of
so many things going on geopolitically. The conflict, of course,
between Israel and Iran and then the U.S. involvement. We've
(15:58):
got tariffs, uh, China confirming the details and, and the
deal with the US on trade and tariffs. A lot
going on in the markets today. And all of that
is pushing the markets higher. Jerry will weigh in on
what we can make of all of that. And where
might this economy be headed from here. But in the
meantime we're open for your calls and questions. Again. Lines
(16:20):
are open 800 525 7000 is the number to call.
Let's head to the phones. We're going to begin in Georgia. Rhonda,
you'll be our first caller. Go ahead.
S4 (16:29):
Yes. Thanks for having me. Um, I have kind of, like,
a two part question. I'm gonna try to see if
I can ask it all in one breath.
S1 (16:38):
All right. Go ahead.
S4 (16:40):
Yes. So my spouse and I are living in an
inherited home with my mother in law. Um, but it's
creating family tension, and we'd like to move out this year. Um,
there are three people on the deed, um, myself, my
husband and my mother in law. Um, how can we
protect our future financial future when it comes to the property? Um,
(17:01):
you know, if we were to go ahead and move out.
And then also, um, I'm paying down a repossession, um,
and I would, um, and I want to get a
better deal if I try to consolidate that debt. I
want to know if I, you know, what to do
with this repossession in the midst of the other thing
going on.
S1 (17:21):
Okay. Yeah. And so the repossession is on an automobile,
is that right?
S4 (17:26):
Yes. I've been paying little small amounts on it, but
I haven't like, you know, did any type of deal
with them on that part. So I'm kind of like
unsure of what to do.
S1 (17:37):
Okay. Let's deal with that separately. Going back to the
home for a second. Um, you know, if all three
of you are listed on the deed, that means you
each have a legal interest in the property. So the
first step would be to clarify the ownership type. Unless,
you know, is it joint tenancy or what's called tenants
in common?
S4 (18:00):
Not that I'm aware of.
S1 (18:02):
Okay. Uh, okay. So you need to find that out
because that's going to have a lot to do. Um,
you know, with the the ownership type is going to
be a key part of you understanding what's going to
happen upon the sale. Um, so joint tenancy with right
of survivorship just means that if one owner dies, their
(18:23):
share goes to the other. Tenancy in common is where
each person has a specific share. So when one dies there,
their share goes to their heirs, not the other owners,
and then tenancy by the entirety. That's for married couples only,
so that wouldn't apply. What was the intention by having
your mother in law on the deed? Was she a
(18:44):
party to the original purchase or what is everybody's understanding
about the ownership structure?
S4 (18:51):
Well, um, my husband, um, they, my husband and my
mother in law started out on the deed alone, um,
because they inherited from, um, her mom and his grandmother.
And then they added me. We had to go and
do paperwork, and they added me on to the deed, um,
as well as just the wife. So, um, they have more,
(19:12):
you know, connections with the inheritance than I do, but
they do respect, you know, things that, you know, I'm
involved with, with the home as well. Um, at this time.
S1 (19:23):
So when the inheritance was distributed from the estate of
the family member that passed away. Was it was this
property left to your husband and his mom? Your mother
in law? Equally.
S4 (19:38):
It was.
S1 (19:39):
Okay. So I would imagine that the way that you know,
that everybody's thinking about that is if we have a property,
let's just for simple terms, say it's worth 100,000 and
it's it's then passed equally to your husband and his mom.
Now you they each have a 50% ownership of that property.
And then he marries you. And now you and him
(20:01):
share 50%. And your mother in law has the other 50%.
Do you believe that's the understanding of how this property
is owned? And who is entitled to what? Or are
you thinking it's something different than that?
S4 (20:15):
Um, well, I know in the will it did say
that if something were to happen, I guess, to the
inherited parties at this time, then, like the kids. We
have kids. Um, my my husband is an only child, so, um,
his mom doesn't have any other kids but his kids.
Our kids, it would pass down to them. Um, it's
how they had it on, like her estate or whatever.
(20:37):
Like that. So.
S1 (20:38):
Okay. Yeah. But that generally, unless it's a trust where
this is owned by a trust, um, generally what happens
with that is, um, the property would be left and
the will creates a provision so that if your husband
passed away before this family member passed away, then it
would go to his kids. Um, but once you know,
(20:59):
if it's a will we're talking about, once the home
passes 50% to your husband, 50% to his mom, then
he is now the steward of 50%. She's the steward
of the other 50%. The estate of the previous family
member no longer applies. And so now it's just up
to your husband as to what he wants to do
with this 50%. Um, let's do this. I've got to
(21:22):
take a break. We'll continue to unpack this. And then
I also want to talk about that repossession and see
if we can give you a path forward on that.
Because I know these are important questions. They're good ones
and they can be complicated too. So we'll get to
the bottom of it. Uh, Rhonda, you stay right there
and we'll come right back to you. Folks, we do
have some lines open. We'll continue to take your calls
in the next segment. So go ahead and call right
(21:43):
now if you have a financial question. 800 525 7000.
We'll be right back. Great to have you with us
today on Faith in finance. Live here on Moody Radio.
We've got a few lines open. You can call right
now 800 525 7000. Uh, before the break, we were
(22:05):
talking to Rhonda in Georgia. She and her husband live
in an inherited home with their mother in law. Uh,
her husband and his mom inherited the property, uh, from
another family member, and they're about to move out and and,
you know, they're no longer going to be living together. Um,
(22:26):
all three of them, according to Rhonda's understanding, are on
the deed. I think the key is to as I
was sharing with her during the break to make sure
there's clear communication and expectations. It starts with she and
her husband sitting down and saying, what was our expectation?
I mean, if this was left from a family member
to her husband and to his mom as 50% owners,
(22:49):
well then the intention was her husband and now Rhonda
as a as her, his spouse owned 50% and his
mom owns 50%. And as long as everybody agrees on that,
it's pretty simple. If there was an understanding that, you know,
perhaps it was owned one third, one third, one third, well,
that just needs to be cleared up. And the last
thing you'd want to do would be to go into
a sale like that without clear expectations. There's the legal
(23:13):
ownership of the property, and then there's the expectation based
on how it was received by way of inheritance, what
the intention was on the part of the deceased. Um,
and then how those monies are split upon the sale, and,
and Rhonda's going to chat with her husband about that
and then sit down with his mother in law, the
three of them, to kind of talk it through and
make sure they're all on the same page. Now, the
(23:34):
second part of her question was related to a repossession,
an automobile at the time she was dealing with some
other things, didn't engage with the lender. And what happens
is that after repossession, Rhonda, as you know, the lender
sells the car. And if it's sold for less than
what you owed, you're responsible for what's called the deficiency balance.
(23:55):
And then you have two main options. And I know
this gets to the heart of your question. How do
I approach this? Well, if you have the ability to
make a lump sum payment, that would be great because
you could engage the collection, uh, you know, agency, whoever
owns the the remaining balance and negotiate a settlement that's
(24:15):
less than the full amount. But that generally is going
to require you to have the ability to make, you know,
write a single check with a lump sum, and you
might be able to get $0.50 on the dollar, $0.60
on the dollar, something like that. But be sure you
get any deal in writing before you pay a penny.
The second option is if a lump sum isn't available,
(24:35):
well then you would want to ask them perhaps to
get on a payment plan. Just make sure it's something
you can afford. But I think either way resolving it
is wise. That's going to help to avoid lawsuits and
slowly rebuild your credit. Does that make sense?
S4 (24:51):
Yes.
S1 (24:52):
Okay, so I think those are your next steps. I
hope that's helpful. Call anytime and we appreciate you being
on the broadcast today. Uh, Nashville, Tennessee is where we're
headed next. Hi, Jeff. Go ahead.
S5 (25:03):
Hi, Rob. Appreciate the heart of your ministry. And, um,
this question hopefully isn't as heavy as the world stage
right now. So all that to say is, uh, several
years ago, my son and his wife needed some money
to build a tiny house. They built it themselves, and
we put about $6,500 into that project for them. And
now they're selling it for a loss for their third
(25:28):
parties buying it. He took a loan out and basically, um,
the money they received, they're paying us back for the
loan that we gave them. So it's a net loss
of about 3000. So my two questions were one, is
there any type of, uh, sales tax event that we
need to pay anybody on either end? Um, and is
there any personal tax ramification for my son who's giving
(25:52):
us the money back or for us receiving it? Is
it just an investment loss, or is it something different?
S1 (25:59):
Yeah, yeah. Got it. Uh, no, there should not be
any sales tax due on the property. Um, it just
that doesn't apply here. Uh, unless it's classified as a vehicle. Um,
you know, so if the tiny home is on wheels
or titled as an RV or a trailer, the DMV
could charge sales tax. But, uh, you know, if it's
(26:21):
on land and treat it as real estate, then, you know,
there's no sales tax. Um, in that typical sense, um,
with regard to, you know, income tax, the only thing
that could possibly be is capital gain. But in this case,
we've got a $2,000 loss. So there would be no
tax due, uh, because it's a personal use property. Uh,
(26:44):
he doesn't get to deduct that. Uh, but the bottom
line is, it doesn't sound like there'd be any tax
due on this whatsoever.
S5 (26:52):
Awesome. So tiny house, tiny loss.
S1 (26:54):
Yeah. Unfortunately, uh, hopefully it served its purpose, though. And
maybe now they can move on to something better.
S5 (27:01):
They did. And thank you, Rob, for your time. Have
a great weekend and a good 4th of July.
S1 (27:05):
Well, and you as well, Jeff, and thanks for your
kind remarks about the program, sir. God bless you. Uh.
To Illinois. Deborah, how can we help you?
S6 (27:13):
Hi, Rob. Thanks for taking my call. You're a blessing.
And we were blessed by my oldest son and his
wife with our first granddaughter. Oh, wow.
S1 (27:24):
Congratulations.
S6 (27:26):
Thank you. Um, so I'm just. You had mentioned some plans,
like a college fund, um, versus, uh, some other type of, uh, holding,
you know, to save money for the child to go
to college. And I just wanted to hear your discussion
on that.
S1 (27:45):
Yeah, absolutely. So the best tool, I think, uh, for
a lot of reasons, is what's called the 529 college
savings plan. Uh, you know, it's really, um, a great
vehicle because it essentially acts like a Roth IRA, but
they're easy to set up. Every state has one, and
(28:06):
you can contribute essentially as much as you want, and
you can do as little as you want to. So
you would basically fund it either with a lump sum
or you could do it, you know, over time they've
got a nice menu generally of investments to choose from
that allow you to basically like a 401 K, you just,
you know, pick your investment strategy based on age based
(28:29):
approach generally. And and then as long as the money
is used for qualified educational expenses, um, then you'd have
the ability to pull the money out that you put in, um,
plus any gains, uh, tax free. Uh, so you put
in after tax dollars, it grows in the investments and
(28:49):
then you pull it out tax free. Now, those qualified expenses, uh,
are what, you know, the IRS allows you to pull
the money from. And that would be, you know, tuition
and fees, room and board, books and supplies, even computers
and software, if it's used for school, up to 10,000
K to 12 tuition if they go to a private school,
even up to 10,000 in student loan repayments. So, you know,
(29:13):
there are some some great options there. And you don't
have to use the, you know, the State of Illinois plan,
although they have a good one. It's called bright start.
It's known for high ratings and low fees. But you
know the top one right now in terms of return
I think is Maryland. And then Alaska is right behind it.
I think West Virginia is is very good. There's a
(29:34):
great website called Savingforcollege.com. And if you go there you
can read about the 529. You can even kind of
run some scenarios and some projections on based on the
type of school your grandchildren may want to go to,
how much you might want to save, and it will
suggest the best plans. Um, but I think, uh, you know,
(29:56):
depending on the benefits of the potential in-state tax deduction
there in Illinois, which could be significant because you all
have higher taxes. Um, you may want to go outside
of Illinois, but Savingforcollege.com will help you evaluate the higher
performance you might get elsewhere against any in-state tax benefits
(30:18):
there in Illinois. Does that make sense?
S6 (30:20):
Yes it does. And then I hear the music. But
what's the alternative to a college saving plan?
S1 (30:27):
Yeah. Good question. All right, let's do this. Um, I'd
love to weigh in on that, but I don't want
to run short here on time. So you stay right there,
and we'll tackle that right after this short break. So
just hang on the line. Uh, we'll be headed to
Winter Haven after this to talk to Tami and maybe
your question. We'll be right back. Hey, thanks for joining
(30:53):
us today on Faith and Finance Live. I'm Rob West.
We're taking your calls and questions today. Uh, we'll be
headed to Jerry Boyer here in just a moment. Jerry
will weigh in on the markets and the economy, and
we'll try to get to a few more questions as well.
Before the break, we were talking to Deborah in Illinois.
She has a new granddaughter, which is amazing and she
wants to make like an awesome grandmother some contributions to
(31:14):
a college savings plan, which I love that. Um, so
there's the 529, which is generally my preferred option. If
you think, you know, you want to earmark it specifically
for college because it acts like a Roth, you get
the tax free growth as long as you use the
money for qualified educational expenses. There's high contribution limits, pretty
easy to pick the investment choices, which most people like.
(31:38):
It's kind of like a 401 K. You kind of
have a menu there. And some states offer tax deductions,
which could be helpful in a state like Illinois where
Deborah is calling from. The other options would be, um,
the old education savings account. It's called a Coverdell education.
It's basically like a college IRA. And so you can
put in up to $2,000 a year. So there are
(32:01):
contribution limits if you're wanting to put it more than that,
this would not be a good option. Um, and you
get the tax free growth just like the 529, but
you have basically unlimited investment options like an IRA. So
if you want more investment flexibility, like if you wanted
to use some faith based investments, well, the Coverdell would
(32:21):
be a great option for you. Just know you're going
to have that $2,000 limit. The custodial account might be
another option. I don't like that just because the the
child gains control at the age of majority, and if
there are spiritual or financial maturity is not there, they
could use the money however they want at that point
and you may not agree with it. So I kind
of like you having a little bit more control, especially
(32:43):
for really young grandchildren, just given the unknowns about where
we're going to be in the future. And then I
would probably not use a Roth IRA or a prepaid
tuition plan. So I think either the Coverdell or the
529 would be the best options.
S6 (32:58):
All right. Great. Thank you for your help with this.
S1 (33:00):
You are so welcome. Congrats on that new granddaughter. And, uh,
call us back anytime. Well, Jerry Bowyer is here, and
there's a lot going on in the markets today, including China,
confirming the details of the US trade. Uh, however, on
the not so good trade talks, apparently Trump has ended
all trade talks with Canada. So, Jerry, you never know
(33:22):
what a day will bring, do you?
S7 (33:24):
No, it's not exactly stable leadership. Uh, although generally it
ends up going in the right direction. So, you know,
Providence has been merciful to us, um, in that regard. But, um,
you know, probably it's better to, you know, have the
trade deal with China than it is with Canada. So,
(33:44):
you know, why you saying that? Because we do a
lot of business with Canada. Yeah, but you know we're
going to work it out eventually, you know. Right. China
maybe that ends up in World War three. We're probably
not going to get World War three with Canada. And
if we do, I like our chances. Um, so I
think I think that generally markets are liking the fact that,
you know, we have a deal with China that that
(34:04):
deal involves that we're going to export more to them
because they've been very protectionist. They haven't really behaved very
well in terms of trade. I mean, it's it's one
thing I'm an advocate of free trade. I want more trade.
China's pretty manipulative in its trade practices. And one of
the tricky little things it does because with these global
trade agreements, sometimes they have these deals where, well, we're
(34:25):
not going to stop you from, you know, we're going
to limit the amount of import control that you'll do. Right.
So China pulled an interesting trick. They said, well, we're
going to do export control. Well everyone wants to export.
So it's like, well why would you do that China.
Why would you cut your exports. Well we're going to
cut our exports of rare earth minerals. Why. Because you
(34:45):
need them. So the only way you can get access
to our rare earth minerals is not to buy them
and take them from us. It's to build factories here
in China and use them here. Yeah. So we'll export
the rare earth minerals only if they're embedded in cell
phones already. So that was a way they kind of
forced a lot of manufacturing, some of that high value
manufacturing into China. Well, you know, they're going to be
(35:08):
exporting that to us. So that's a good thing. Um,
and I don't think they should afforded it. I think God,
God gave some countries a lot of oil. He gave
some countries a lot of ability to grow soybeans. And
he gave some countries these rare earth minerals. And we
ought to be trading with one another. He was generous
to us all, and we ought to be exchanging and
China trying to kind of manipulated the gift of God
with these important minerals into essentially, um, kind of forcing
(35:32):
in manufacturing into the country, um, and away from other places. Uh,
so that that ended up in a good place. Uh,
so I'm happy about that. Um, and also, you know,
we're dropping we're not going to do the crazy heavy
tariffs on China. Um, and people might think, well, we
should be tariffing them. Well, the problem is that when
we tariff China, they tariff us back. That's a trade war.
(35:54):
You know, if we went into this thinking that, well,
all we have to do is take a hard line
with these countries and they'll just take it. But the
things that we do to them, they do back to us.
And that's what we learned. I hope we all learned
one thing. One point of economics in this is that
there's no one sided trade war. If a nation launches
a trade war, there's a trade war in response. And
(36:17):
that's why markets did so poorly earlier this year. But
the president ended up, I think, in a pretty good place.
He wants more trade. More trade is good for everybody.
And I think that's why markets are so high. I
think we'll work it out with Canada. But if we
all have to have a little less maple syrup for,
you know, a year or so probably wouldn't, won't do
us any harm.
S1 (36:36):
Oh, Jerry, uh, what about, uh, you know, the big,
beautiful bill that the president is pushing so hard for?
He had a big event on the at the white
House yesterday. He's calling for it, almost demanding it by
July the 4th. Um, what is your assessment of the
current state of that bill? and maybe nobody knows what
the current state is. But just in terms of I
(36:57):
know you've been very positive on the tax cuts, what
about everything else? And what directionally will that bill take
us toward with regard to ultimately getting our fiscal house
in order?
S7 (37:10):
Well, the issue with having full bill is you put
everything into one bill, right? And so it's going to
be a mix of good and bad. By the way,
I don't really think that's a great way to do legislation.
I think that in general, good legislative practice should be
that a bill is about a topic. So what the
president has done is said, everything that I want goes
on one bill. It's gigantic. And you have to vote
(37:31):
up or down against me. I don't think that's what
the founders had in mind. That having been said, I
think generally the bill is going in the right direction.
It has some nice tax cuts. It has a spending cut,
which I like. So, you know, and that is the
Medicaid cut. Now I don't want to cut off people
who are in need. I don't think we should do that.
I think we need a social safety net. But we've
(37:52):
gotten into a situation where there are a lot of
able bodied people, a lot of young men in particular,
who don't have to work because they're paid to not work.
They get free health care. They get other kinds of
benefits for not working. That's created a worker shortage. We're
not going to have we're not going to be a
great economy until people who can work, work. That's addressed
in the Bible, by the way. Paul has that as
(38:14):
a principle. He had to teach the early church that.
So now we have to teach America that. So some
of these things that say that you're not going to
be able we're not going to reward you for not working.
We're getting rid of some of those. And I think
that's a good thing. The spending is too high. It
just is too high. I mean, eventually we're going to
pay the price for that. Uh, you know that I
think that we've been moving towards the possibility of some
(38:37):
kind of debt crisis. Uh, I think we have some
more time, but we don't have infinite time. In general,
the pro-growth aspects of this bill, I think, are worth it.
If I were in Congress, I'd hold my nose and
sign the sign. The thing. Uh, but I we really
do need to deal with the with the spending issue
and the borrowing issue. And, frankly, we are not with
(38:59):
a big, beautiful bill, so it's only a little bit beautiful.
It's a bill with beautiful parts. It is a bill.
It's partly beautiful. It's certainly big. I think anyone has
to agree with that.
S1 (39:10):
There's no doubt about that. All right. Very good. Uh, Jerry,
just in terms of the overall health of the economy,
I mean, we got another inflation reading. It ticked up, uh,
you know, who knows what's going to happen with the
fed and whether or not the president's going to try
to undermine Jerome Powell with the appointment of a essentially
a fed chairman in waiting. Um, just put a bow
(39:32):
on the the rest of the economy as you evaluate it.
S7 (39:35):
Well, I'm with the fed chairman on this. Um, I mean,
I wouldn't fire the fed chairman. I might fire the fed. Uh,
but I wouldn't fire the fed chairman. We can question
whether anyone ought to have that much power, but frankly,
I don't think he ought to be pushed around by
the president. I don't think he the president wants him
to cut rates, which is kind of fed, speak for,
create more monetary stimulus, print more dollars and flood them
(39:57):
into the system. But inflation is already above our target rate.
I don't think we've beaten inflation. And we do have
higher tariffs. Even though we've mostly ended the trade war,
we haven't completely ended it. And that's an increase in prices.
Of course it's an increase in prices. It's not even
a side effect. That's what tariffs are for. Tariffs are
designed to increase the price of foreign competitors so that
(40:20):
Americans can charge more. Price increases are the intent of tariffs.
So we're probably going to get some price increases. So
I don't think the central bank ought to make it
worse by monetary stimulus. And if the president really believes
the big beautiful bill is going to give us a
golden age, and that where we are with tariffs and
the trade deals are just the best trade deals ever,
(40:41):
maybe best in the history of the human race, then great.
Why are we, you know, Flacking here for monetary stimulus.
If we've got the right tax package and we've got
the right trade package, those things give us a good economy.
Why are we asking the fed to, you know, to
pour caffeine into the water? Um, good economic policy shouldn't
require stimulus plans from the central bank.
S1 (41:03):
Yeah, well, it makes sense. And you've been consistent on
that for a long time. And hopefully that message gets through.
We'll see. Um, any any ideas on where he's going
to go with the next fed chairman?
S7 (41:15):
A loyalist? Maybe some friends of mine. Uh, but somebody
who's very committed, who Trump is absolutely confident is going
to do what he wants. So either somebody who is
very politically loyal or somebody who's just in favor of
easy money. You know, someone who's a rate cutter. I'm
seeing a lot of folks out there. Some of them
pals of mine, people that I generally agree with who
(41:36):
are out there saying, oh, we need a rate cut. Who?
I think if it were Biden asking for the rate cut,
or were Obama asking for the rate cut, or Clinton
might not be saying the same thing. But since the
president is looking for a new fed chairman, all all
these supply siders now all of a sudden think we
need to debase the currency a little bit. So probably
(41:58):
someone pretty loyal and maybe of somewhat flexible principles shouldn't
be hard to find.
S1 (42:04):
All right. We'll keep our eyes on it. Jerry. Thanks
for your time, as always.
S7 (42:07):
My pleasure.
S1 (42:08):
All right. That's Jerry Bowyer, our resident economist. Hey, before
we wrap up here today, just real quick, we are
12 partners away from reaching our year end goal, which
is three days away. Why? Why year in? Well, we're
on a fiscal calendar, so June the 30th is the
end of our year at Faith fi. Would you help
us get there? If you love the program, you'd be
(42:29):
you'd consider becoming a partner. We could use 12 more
of you. Just go to Faith. Thanks in advance. Faith
is a partnership between Moody Radio and Faith fi. Thank
you to Jim, Lisa, Rihanna and Dan. Have a great weekend.
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