October 13, 2025 • 42 mins
What is said in Scripture about tithing—and does it still apply to Christians today? For some, the tithe feels like a doorway to trusting God to provide. For others, it’s a source of guilt, confusion, or even division in the church. On the next Faith & Finance Live, Rob West and John Cortines help us take a fresh, biblical look at this ancient practice. Then, it’s on to your calls. That’s Faith & Finance Live—biblical wisdom for your financial decisions. That’s weekdays at 4pm Eastern/3pm Central on Moody Radio.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:06):
What does scripture really say about tithing and does it
still apply to Christians today? Hi, I'm Rob West. For some,
the tithe feels like a doorway to trusting God's provision.
For others, it's a source of guilt, confusion, or even
division in the church. John Cortinas joins us today to
help us take a fresh, biblical look at this ancient practice.
(00:28):
Then it's on to your calls at 800 525 7000.
That's 805, two five 7000. This is faith and finance. Live.
Biblical wisdom for your financial journey. Well, it's a privilege
to have my friend John Cortinas with us today as
director of Grant making at the MacLellan Foundation and a
(00:50):
frequent contributor to Faith. John brings a wealth of wisdom
to these conversations each time he joins us. And John,
it's great to have you back.
S2 (00:58):
Great to be with you, Rob. Thanks so much.
S1 (01:01):
John, your article on tithing and the new issue of
Faithful Steward. Our magazine starts with such a relatable moment.
It was you receiving your first paycheck and wrestling with
how to give. And maybe as a backdrop to this conversation,
you could share that story with us.
S2 (01:18):
Absolutely. Well, you know, like many people, I sort of
thought of Christian stewardship. You know, maybe it boils down
to giving 10% or tithing. That's something that's in our
Christian culture. But I got that first paycheck and I
ran into this question is, is it 10% gross of
the total amount or is it 10% net? Because like
anybody who's gotten that first big paycheck, you go, wow,
(01:38):
they paid me a lot less than 10% of what
the ticket was supposed to be. Um, and so 10%
net was small, 10% gross was big. And then I
realized that I'm getting all these benefits, like health insurance
and 401 K contributions, and should I be tithing on that?
And so 10% sounds easy, but I found that calculating
the right number and stressing over that was robbing me
(02:01):
of the joy of what Christian generosity should be.
S1 (02:04):
Mhm. Yeah. And I suspect many are listening audience really
resonate with that. Uh, you describe this potentially as even
a divisive issue. What do you think makes it such
a sensitive subject even within the church?
S2 (02:17):
Well, you know, I think that the teaching on this
varies so much. Um, but our Christian stewardship culture does
center maybe overly anchor. I would argue on this concept
of the tithe. Over the past decade, since I've been
in this space in a serious way, I've spoken to
hundreds and hundreds of people about their faith and finances.
And for some people, like you said, tithing has been
(02:39):
this doorway to trusting in God's provision and learning how
to faithfully give. But for other people, it's really tied
to a manipulative or even prosperity gospel style of teaching.
There are preachers today who will actually teach that if
you fail to religiously give 10% to their church, you'll
be under a financial curse from God. And so there's
(02:59):
often a lack of a fuller biblical framework that holds
truth and grace around this topic and really looks at
the tie biblically.
S1 (03:07):
Yeah, and that's why I so appreciate the approach you've
taken with this article. In Faithful Steward. It's titled tithing
A Fresh Look at an Ancient Practice. And you really
took a deep dive both into the Old and New Testament,
looking at each reference to the tithe, not only the word,
but really the teaching on giving as it relates to
(03:27):
the tithe. Let's start with the Old Testament and talk
about how it portrays tithing.
S2 (03:33):
Well, great. Yeah. So the the Bible mentions tithing 49
times across 15 different instances throughout Scripture and in the article.
For those who are curious, we highlight every one of
those instances. But just for some quick highlights in the
Old Testament, as you said, way back before the law,
we had Abraham giving a gift to Melchizedek, which predates
(03:54):
the law and honors the priesthood of God. And then
we see Jacob vowing to give 10%, but in his prayer,
it's kind of a conditional promise. If you do this, God,
I'll do that for you. It's not clear biblically whether
this is a model prayer that we should emulate the
style of or not. Then when we do get to
the law, we actually see three different tithes or three
(04:16):
different uses for the tithe, depending on which commentator you
might be reading. Those were the Levitical tithe to support
the priesthood. That's probably the most familiar for people, but
there were also festival tithes to fund the Jewish feasts.
And then there was a charity tithe to support the poor.
And throughout the history of Israel. And we see the
tithe mentioned a few more times. There were cycles of
(04:39):
neglect and then reform around these practices.
S1 (04:42):
Yeah. And so, John, if we were to annualize this again,
just looking at the Old Testament, it would have been
perhaps as much as 23 and a third percent annually.
Is that right?
S2 (04:53):
That's right. Again, there's some kind of disputes around the
edges of how would you calculate that? But a clear
cut 10% is not quite what it was.
S1 (05:00):
Yeah. No doubt about it. Well, when we come back,
we're going to continue to unpack this. What about the
New Testament? Are there principles we can take away from
the Old and New Testament to apply to our giving today?
And what does this look like practically? John Cortinez here
today we're talking about the tithe. John is director of
grantmaking at the MacLellan Foundation. Stay with us. Much more
(05:22):
to come. Thanks for joining us today on Faith and
Finance Live. I'm Rob West with me today. My friend
John Cortinez. He's director of grantmaking at the MacLellan Foundation.
He's also a frequent contributor here at Faith Fi, and
(05:43):
he has an article in our new issue of Faithful
Steward Magazine all about the tie. That really takes a
deep look and scripture at this ancient practice, and helps
us pull out principles that we can apply to our
giving today, hopefully helping you to overcome confusion, perhaps even
misunderstanding or divisiveness that has existed around this topic. John,
(06:08):
I so appreciate the approach you took at this, diving
into Scripture to really examine the tithe before the break
you took us into the Old Testament. I'd love to
hear about the New Testament and how it carries forward
the tithe, perhaps as a rule or not, for Christians
giving today.
S2 (06:26):
Well, this is fascinating, Rob, because, as you know, the
tithe is so central in what we hear and think
about stewardship as believers. But in the article, we list
the 21 richest chapters of stewardship teaching in the New Testament.
So you've got Jesus, you've got the apostles. They had
so much to say about money and giving. But what
was crazy to me is that they never once used
(06:46):
the tithe as a framework for Christian stewardship in the
New Testament church. Yeah. And I recognize that's a pretty
shocking statement. But the tithe is simply not a foundational
stewardship framework in the New Testament. Now, many people would
point out, but the word tithe does occur in the
New Testament. And yes, it's there four times. Each time,
if you get into it, it's used incidentally. It kind
(07:07):
of comes up as a side point in a broader conversation.
And in fact, Jesus criticizes those who believe that their
perfect tithing earns God's favor if their lives don't demonstrate
true humility, justice, mercy, and faithfulness. So as we look
at Christ and the apostles, they focus on gospel generosity,
which is voluntary and sacrificial and joyful and regularly scheduled
(07:31):
and brings glory to God.
S1 (07:33):
Yeah, there's no doubt about it. And I suspect there
are a lot of people listening today that are surprised
by what you just said about the lack of a
foundational teaching around the tithe in the New Testament. You did, however, though,
identify A55 key principles rooted in the Old Testament time
that we can pull forward to inform our giving today.
(07:56):
Let's examine those. Perhaps we can start with the first two.
S2 (07:59):
Well, that's right. And you know, we can argue for
years about how applicable is the tithe today. And I
think that's an important conversation. But what's very interesting to
ask for me is what is certain, what is universal
about the ancient tithes and what beauty can we find
in them? There's so much beauty in them. Uh, and
here's one we give to Christ as our priest and king.
(08:20):
And that actually reflects the truth that we saw when
Abraham gave to Melchizedek, honoring the spiritually greater person in
front of him. Yes. And then secondly, we do give
faithfully to our local church. It is good and proper
to fund ministry and care for our spiritual leaders, and
that honors the principle behind the Levitical tithe.
S1 (08:40):
Yeah, and I love this. You're honoring those Old Testament
tithes in how we give today. So we give to
Christ as priest and King. We give faithfully to our
local church. What are those other principles?
S2 (08:54):
Sure. So number three, this one is surprising as well.
It's to celebrate. You know, there was the festival tithe
where we set aside resources for feasting and celebrating God's
goodness and building a legacy of faith. But even it
points out in Scripture not to use debt to fund
those holy celebrations or those legacy building memorable times. That's three.
(09:15):
Four would be to care for the poor faithfully, which
honors the charity tithe by remembering the week. And then
here's number five. We recognize 10% as an ancient benchmark.
It's a helpful starting point. It's very easy math. It
may not be a legalistic yardstick in the church today. And,
you know, even in the Old Testament you talked about
the complications of the calculation. The tithe was the 10th
(09:38):
to pass under the shepherd's rod. What does that mean?
If I had nine new sheep born, well, that's no tithe.
If I had ten sheep, that's one for the tithe.
What if I had 17 sheep? Well, that's one for
the tithe. So it's 0%, 5%, 10% depending on how
many sheep are born. And that's in Leviticus 27 for
those who want to go look at it. But, you know,
you and I both have ten fingers and 10% is
(10:00):
the easiest fraction for a human being to calculate. So
even if I'm not under the law, that's a very
good ancient measuring stick if I'm going to think about
generous giving.
S1 (10:09):
Yeah. Well, and to your point earlier, you know, we should,
as New Testament believers, be giving proportionate and systematic, as
you said, regularly scheduled. And so this 10% starting point,
as Randy Alcorn says, that maybe the training wheels of
giving is an appropriate way to think about at least
part of our giving. Now, one of the other helpful
(10:31):
ways that we can understand this is perhaps hearing it
in the form of a story. In this article, you
actually present a case study comparing two individuals. We could
call them Jack and Cindy. I'd love for you to
share and summarize their stories and explain why they make
the point so effectively.
S2 (10:49):
Well, Sherry, you know, and Rob, just like you, I
have the privilege of talking to so many people about
their finances and their giving. And I had these two
real life conversations almost just a week apart. And so
it stuck in my mind. Let's call the first one Jack.
And he tithes confidently. And he said to me, and
I quote, he said, I tithe on the promise of Malachi.
I've heard teaching on this. I know it's true if
(11:09):
I'm tithing to my church. In fact, my personal income
will never go down. It can't go down. It will
only go up because of the blessing I'm securing for myself. Wow. Now,
by contrast, this other person, about a week later, totally
separate conversation. Let's call her Cindy. She's humble, she's concerned.
She said. My giving has fallen down to 9%. I'm
(11:30):
worried that I'm being unfaithful to the Lord. But meanwhile,
if you look at her life, she and her husband
host a church small group. They faithfully volunteer every Sunday,
and they actually had foster children in their middle class home,
and the expense of that was one of the reasons
their giving was stretched. And so if I go, let's
take a legalistic reading of 10% giving Jack wins and
(11:50):
Cindy loses. But if I honestly imagine that Jesus were
here in the conversation, I think it's clear which one
he might point to as living with the humility and
faithfulness that he calls us to.
S1 (12:01):
I love that example, John. It really does change the
way we think about this. So on a practical level
for our listeners today, how would you encourage them to
live out these principles then, without drifting into pride or
even guilt?
S2 (12:14):
Absolutely. Well, you know, I think one of the key
points here is to recognize that that Old Testament system,
there was a lot of complexity there. And giving is
not just one fixed calculation back then or today, even
beyond the tithe, if you go study the Old Testament,
there were lots of different offerings involved. So just a
word of caution here. Uh, this may be a strong statement,
but if someone is teaching that, you'll be especially blessed
(12:36):
if you give 10% of your money to their ministry
or church and even cursed if you don't. I'll just
say be cautious. That sounds maybe more manipulative than strictly biblical.
Be careful. That could be a prosperity gospel type of
environment that you're in. Yeah. And I'd encourage anybody to
check out the Faithful Steward article that has come out
and study those 21 chapters in the New Testament that
(12:57):
we list there. They all teach about joyful and sacrificial
scheduled grace giving, which should flow naturally out of our
lives as disciples of Christ. Anyone listening? I'd say start today.
Look at Second Corinthians, chapters eight and nine, first Timothy
chapter six. I mean, just beautiful teaching. And lastly, remember
that Jesus himself, he values humility and justice and mercy
(13:20):
over a perfectly calculated giving percentage. We see that in
Matthew 23, Luke 11, Luke 18.
S1 (13:26):
Yeah, John, just about 30s left. What's one takeaway, perhaps
one practice, that has been shaped by this study of
the tithe in your own life?
S2 (13:36):
Well, you know, every dollar is Christ's. Every breath I
take is Christ. Every dollar I have or spend. Not 10%,
but all of my life. And this whole conversation. It's
not an excuse to give less. My wife and I
personally give beyond 10%. But let me just say this
as we close, we don't give to get a special
blessing from God, we get to give. In other words,
(13:59):
we give because we've already received the greatest gift, which
is our salvation and adoption into the family of God.
S1 (14:05):
Wow. That is well said. John. So thankful for you
my friend. We appreciate you being here today.
S2 (14:10):
Thank you so much, Rob.
S1 (14:12):
That was John Martinez, director of Grant making at the
MacLellan Foundation. Folks, if you want to read the latest
issue of Faithful Steward, we'd invite you to become a
partner at faithful. Com. We'll be right back.
S3 (14:30):
The opinions offered during this program represent the personal or
professional opinions of the participants, given for informational purposes only.
Any information provided is not intended to replace advice from
a financial, medical, legal or other professional who understands your
specific situation.
S4 (14:57):
Great to have you with us today on Faith and finance.
S1 (14:59):
Live. I'm Rob West, really looking forward to taking your
calls and questions today. You can call with lines open
right now at 800 525 7000. Again, that number is
800 525 7000. At the moment we've got space for you.
We'd love to tackle whatever is on your mind today.
We will get to that in just a few moments.
So now is a great time to call again that
(15:21):
number 800 525 7000. Boy, it was great to have
John Cortinez here today. You know, as we think about
the life of a faithful steward, one of those natural
byproducts of managing God's money is that will be a
generous people. You know that as an overflow of our
gratitude toward the grace of God extended to us, beginning
(15:44):
and really ending with what he has done on the
cross on our behalf, on Calvary, that his death and
burial and resurrection, to pay the penalty for our sins,
that we would be reconciled to the father. Therein we
are rich. We have an abundance before the first dollar,
and as an overflow of gratitude to God, we should
(16:04):
be the most generous people. And I think that's why
I love thinking about the tithe and the work that
John Cortinez did is that under the law of Moses, uh,
you know, they didn't have the the benefit of seeing
what we have seen in terms of what Christ has
done for us. And so shouldn't we use that perhaps
as the minimum standard and be giving beyond that? Now
(16:25):
that we've seen what Christ has done for us, and
as an overflow of that, as an act of worship,
we give sacrificially and Chilean proportionately as God has entrusted
to us, and even sacrificially, you know, giving. Uh, you know,
where we feel it and and that it should be
a joyful experience, an act of worship. And and so
(16:47):
I love taking this deep dive into the to understand
where it comes from. And I love what John has
pulled forward, these principles that we can apply to our
giving here and now. But I also think that we
ought to be thinking about the role of generosity. Is
that perhaps the primary reason God has entrusted to us
what he has is so that we can help those
(17:08):
in need. We can be involved in supporting our local church.
We can give as unto the Lord into ministries and
activities that are on the heart of God, and taking
the gospel to the ends of the earth. And yes,
alongside enjoyment and provision, that giving is one of the
key roles as a faithful steward, and that when we give,
keep in mind, you know, we like to say it
(17:30):
breaks the grip of money over our lives that if
money can have a stranglehold over us, that it it
can hold on to our hearts and, uh, rival our
affection for God. That's misplaced affection. And nevertheless, it happens
that giving the act of holding it loosely, actually, uh,
causes that grip to be loosened. And it calibrates our
(17:53):
hearts to the father. And so as we give, there's
something that happens that we say, yes, God is my provider.
He owns everything. And so I can give it freely
because I know he will continue to provide. So hopefully
that was an encouragement to you today, as you heard
from John, one of our regular contributors. By the way,
if you'd like to check out this incredible article. Uh,
it's one of our features in the brand new edition,
(18:17):
the latest edition of our Faithful Steward magazine. And if
you'd like to receive each issue of Faithful Steward, a
great way to support the ministry, if you love the program,
is to become a faithful partner and partners receive every
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(18:38):
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head to our website. To learn more. That's faithful. All right.
(19:01):
Let's dive into those questions. Today we're going to begin
in Chicago. Chris, thanks for calling. How can I help you?
S5 (19:07):
Good afternoon. Thank you for taking my call. Absolutely. I
don't have a problem with tithing, but I am retired
now and I have a private pension through the state. No,
it's not through the state. I was in education, but
not non-union anyway, so they took out of my paycheck,
(19:29):
I think 5% of what I earned and put it
in my pension, and we had the option of taking
an extra up to 10%, which I did the last
ten years toward my pension. So that money's already been
tithed on. So every first of the month when I
get my pension, I feel guilty not tithing on it,
but it's already been tithed on. So that's my question.
S6 (19:51):
And we yes, we do tithe and we give.
S5 (19:54):
At least 60 to 70%. Um, 6 to 7% above
tithe to in offerings and missions, etc..
S1 (20:03):
Yes. Very good. Uh, I love this question. And, you know,
you want to clearly honor the Lord as you give
on the increase. But what you're saying is there's a
good portion of this that I'm receiving that is the increase.
And it I think it's perhaps helpful not to be legalistic,
but just to get to an understanding of what truly
is an increase. It's helpful to think about your pitch.
(20:26):
And pitching pension is made up of two parts. Number
one is a return of your own contribution, the money
you put in over the years. So you said 5%
for every paycheck. You tithed on the growth, so you
tithed on that. And then there's the what you might
consider the growth and the employer contributions, what your employer
added and the investment earnings that built up over time. Um,
(20:49):
and so in very rough terms, a small portion of
each pension payment is your own money coming back. That
would be the return of contribution. The rest you could
consider increase the investment growth and the employer's share. And
so I think if you want to think about it
in that light, the increase portion is what you've gained
beyond what you contributed. And that would be considered increase. Um,
(21:13):
and so you may want to think about that in
terms of, you know, you could take it as a
50 over 50 kind of deal. You could do 25, 75,
25 as a return of contribution, 75 Employer and growth. Uh,
you know, some people just decide to go ahead and
and tithe on the whole thing, seeing all of it
as a gracious gift from God and and keeping it
(21:35):
very simple. But at the end of the day, God
is not an accountant. He wants your heart. That was
the the idea behind what we were sharing today. Although
I really appreciate your desire to be found faithful, and
I understand that's the heart behind the question you're asking
in the first place. So stay on the line. I
want to get your thoughts on that during the break here.
We'll be right back.
S4 (22:01):
Thanks for joining us today.
S1 (22:02):
On Faith and Finance Live here on Moody Radio. I'm
Rob West. We're so glad to have you along with
us today. You know, a lot of well-meaning stewards ask
that question about how do I think about the tithe
I want to give on my increase? I want to
give as unto the Lord, starting with my with my
local church. And then I give beyond the tithe sacrificially,
and as the Lord leads. But with regard to the increase,
(22:23):
how do I determine what that is in retirement? And,
you know, some choose to, uh, give from all the
income they receive in retirement, including pensions and Social Security,
because they see it as an opportunity to express ongoing
trust in God's provision and to invest in his kingdom.
Others look at trying to break down and a rough sense,
(22:45):
and you have to make some kind of judgment calls on, okay,
how long am I going to live? Well, I have
no idea. Only the Lord knows that. And so I
might use a normal life expectancy. And and so you
might think of Social Security as more of like a 40, 60, 40,
what you paid in 60, you know, percent for a
normal life expectancy as a return of the, quote, investment increase. Um,
(23:11):
you could look at the same thing with a pension, uh,
you know, with an investment account like a 401 K,
you know, some portion or percentage of what you're taking
out every month represents what you put in during your
working years, and other percentage, you know, represents what would
be considered the investment gain. You know, you could use
(23:31):
like a 4060 on that as well. So I think
ultimately it's asking the Lord to guide you and how
you honor him with what you receive, whether that means
continuing a full tithe, giving as you're led, or directing
generosity in new ways. The goal is always the same
to reflect gratitude, faith, and ultimately dependence on him. And
(23:54):
I know there's not a definitive there, which is a
good thing, right? Because it sends you back to your
knees to say, Lord, what would you have me to do?
And then speak to each of us separately about that,
that decision. All right. I hope that helps. Let's head to, uh,
Rhonda in South Carolina. Rhonda. Go ahead.
S7 (24:12):
Um, hi. How are you?
S1 (24:14):
Great. Thanks for calling.
S7 (24:16):
Um, I had a friend who told me that they
only will chip 10% when they go out to restaurants,
because they don't want to give a waitress more than
they give to God. So now whenever I go out,
I think about that in my in my handling it
wrong or or how should you think about that?
S4 (24:36):
Yeah, I think.
S1 (24:37):
That mindset confuses two very different acts tithing and tipping.
And really, perhaps, uh, you know, is a misunderstanding of
both God's heart and generosity. So tithing is an act
of worship and trust toward God, acknowledging that everything we
have belongs to him, not 10%, 100%. We see that
(24:58):
in Deuteronomy 1423, among other places. So it's not a
payment or a transaction, but a spiritual discipline expressing gratitude
and dependence. Tipping, on the other hand, is showing appreciation
for someone's service and and really contributing to their livelihood.
So I think limiting generosity toward others out of a
(25:19):
comparison to what we quote give. God turns giving into
a more of a competition rather than an overflow of love.
Jesus calls us to treat others with compassion and generosity,
and when we give to a server, we're not worshiping them.
Of course, we're honoring God by being kind and just
and generous toward his image bearer. Uh, you know, Jesus
(25:43):
never rebuked people for being too generous. Uh, you know,
we see a classic story in God's word would be
when Zacchaeus repented, you remember, he went far beyond what
the law required, giving half his possessions to the poor
and repaying four times what he had taken. And Jesus
didn't correct him. He rejoiced, saying, today salvation has come
to this house. So I think true generosity reflects a
(26:06):
transformed heart. And Scripture actually says that when we give
to others, we're in fact giving to God. You can
see that in Matthew 2520. So, you know, at the
end of the day, we can't outgive God. And the
tithe is not a ceiling on generosity, but I think
a starting point for a life of open handed stewardship.
(26:26):
And so I think at the end of the day, um,
you know, you giving a tithe as the beginning point
for your giving to God and then giving beyond that, uh,
offerings and even sacrificial giving as the Lord leads is
separate from your tipping. And I think, uh, you know,
today 20%, certainly 15%, at a minimum for good service
(26:49):
is really normal and customary and is, uh, is a
way we can honor those who serve us well and again,
contribute to their livelihood. And I would have no problem.
In fact, I would encourage that personally. Is that helpful though?
S7 (27:03):
That is very helpful. Thank you so much.
S1 (27:06):
All right. Lord bless you. Thank you for calling. Rhonda
800 525 7000 is the number to call. We've got
some lines open today. We'd love to tackle your financial
question again. Any question today? 800 525 7000. Our team
is standing by. Let's go to Tampa. Hi, Naomi. How
can I help you?
S8 (27:25):
Hi. First time caller.
S4 (27:27):
Oh, great.
S9 (27:28):
I'm a little nervous.
S4 (27:29):
Oh. Don't be.
S1 (27:30):
We're delighted you're here today.
S8 (27:33):
Okay. Thank you for having me. Um. Of course. My
question is, um, I recently formed a trust. Um, I
owned two properties. Um, one is paid off and one
is not. So both of those property, um, is in
the same name as my deed. So my question is,
do I need to redeem the homes, um, you know,
(27:57):
to be a part of the trust? Or since they're
both in my name and the deed, I can leave
them as his.
S1 (28:05):
Hmm. Yeah. Good question. So if the.
S4 (28:08):
Trust.
S1 (28:08):
And the name on the deed are already the same,
the key is understanding how the title is held. So
even if the names match, the property has to be
deeded into the name of the trust itself, not just
share the same name as the trustee or the owner.
So here's what that means. If the deed is currently
(28:30):
listed in your name personally, uh, you know, I'll use
a fictitious name, Jane Smith, but the trust is is
called the Jane Smith Living Trust. Jane still needs to
redeem the property. So the owner is shown as Jane Smith, comma,
trustee of the, you know, Jane Smith Living Trust with
(28:52):
the date. That's what legally transfers ownership from her individually
into the trust. Now, if you already did that when
you formed the trust, then you're covered. But if the
deed still lists you as the individual owner, even though
you you as the individual are the same name as
(29:13):
the name on the trust. That's not enough. You would
need to contact your title company or a state attorney
to record a new quitclaim or warranty deed, transferring it
into the trust itself, not just having a shared name,
if that makes sense.
S8 (29:31):
Okay. Yes. Thank you. That's covered my question.
S10 (29:35):
Thank you for that. Very good.
S1 (29:37):
Let me let me say it's always good to get
legal counsel. And so that's why I think reaching out
to that estate attorney or a real estate attorney is good.
I am not an attorney, but just generally speaking, it's
not enough to have a the same personal name on
the deed as the name represented in the trust. We
actually need to transfer the ownership from you individually to
(29:58):
the trust itself, in order for the trust documents to
govern the distribution of this property at the appropriate time.
So thank you for your call today. I think that's
a good move that you made. That's going to make
things really, uh, simple and efficient at your passing. Or
if you become incapacitated, uh, and not involve any probate
(30:21):
costs or time, uh, at your death. Thank you for
calling today. Well, folks, we're going to take a break.
When we come back, we'll have our final segment today,
but we still have room for perhaps 1 or 2
more questions. So something going on in your financial life
you'd like some counsel in light of biblical wisdom? Call.
Right now we've got room for you. 800 525 7000.
(30:45):
This is Faith and finance live. We'll be right back.
S4 (30:57):
Hey, great to have you with us today. If you'd
like to find.
S1 (31:00):
An advisor, a financial professional, somebody to help you with
financial planning or wealth management, but to ensure that they
operate from a biblical worldview. They share your values as
a Christ follower. They've met significant standards and character and
integrity and experience. Pastor reference and client reference. Well, that's
(31:21):
the Certified Kingdom Advisor designation. It's the only financial services
industry designation that is around and offers financial advisors who
can bring a biblical perspective of financial decision making. And
you can find a K in your area. Just just
head to find a com. Can't be any easier than that.
(31:42):
Find a com you can put in your zip code
and see all the professionals in your area. All right,
let's head back to the phones. Fox River Grove, Illinois. Hi, Mark.
Go ahead.
S11 (31:54):
Hi. How are you.
S4 (31:56):
Doing? Great.
S1 (31:56):
Thanks for your call, sir.
S11 (31:59):
Well, I have a question for you. Okay, okay. We're
selling our house because we're thinking of moving. And I'm
wondering if it's better to take the entire proceeds of
the sale and put it into the new house, or
if we should take part of it and put it
in our retirement accounts. I am retired right now, and
we just like to have a little more income in our,
(32:23):
you know, every month. Yeah. And I'm thinking that if
we put something extra into the retirement accounts, you know,
we would have that extra coming in. So what do
you think? Is it does it balance out like, uh,
you know, percentage wise or what do you think?
S1 (32:38):
Yeah. Yeah, it's a good question. So tell me a
few more specifics here. So you've sold your home. Uh,
how much did you clear on that sale?
S11 (32:48):
I'm going to sell it.
S1 (32:48):
Or you're going to sell it. Okay. What do you
what do you think you'll get?
S11 (32:52):
Well, for round numbers, let's just say 250,000.
S1 (32:56):
Okay.
S11 (32:56):
And so someplace a little closer to 300,000 because of
the location we're going to.
S1 (33:02):
Okay. And so the question is, um, you know, let's
say you were to roll all that in. You'd have
a very small $50,000 mortgage thereabouts. Right. Versus you taking
a portion of this and redirecting it and ending up
with a a bigger mortgage? Um, the question would be,
where would you, uh, how would you put that money
(33:23):
into retirement? Are you all still working? And you put
it into a 401 K, or what would you do?
S11 (33:31):
Well, um, I think between my wife and I, we
should be able to roll it into the, uh, into our.
We have, uh, three different accounts. And, uh, I understand
that you can put a certain amount in per year, including, like,
last year. And, uh, so we should be able to
get pretty close to being able to put it all
(33:51):
into our accounts.
S1 (33:53):
Okay. What kind of accounts are they? Do you know
what type of retirement accounts?
S11 (33:59):
Uh, well, they're both, uh, 401 s are rolled over
into just, you know, retirement accounts.
S1 (34:06):
Okay. So they're IRAs, probably individual retirement accounts.
S11 (34:10):
Right? Yes.
S1 (34:11):
Okay. Yeah. So the challenge is, you know, 50 and
older with the $1,000 catch up, the most you can
put in for 2025 is going to be $8,000 each.
So if you each had 401 KS that you rolled over,
they stay individual. You can't combine them. So there is
no joint IRA. So that means your your 401 KS
(34:33):
that each of you had at your employers are now
in two IRAs, one in your name, one in hers.
You could each put in 8000 a year, so the
most you could put in of that quarter of $1
million would be 16,000. Now, you could turn around and
do that again next year, um, as a 2026 contribution.
(34:55):
But that would be the max you could put in.
S11 (34:59):
Oh, I thought there was a lookback kind of a
deal where you could put in for like last year
or something like that to know?
S1 (35:06):
Well, the only place that comes up is you can
contribute to the prior year until you file that year's return.
So for instance, uh, for 2025, you'd have until April
of 26, but the time has already passed for you
to fund, let's say, 2024. So at this point, the
(35:26):
most you could put in would be 16,000 for 2025.
And then turn around and do another 16,000, 8000 in
each one. Uh, for 2026. Now you have to have
earned income. But it sounds like you do because you're
continuing to work, right?
S11 (35:41):
No, my wife is.
S1 (35:43):
Okay. Uh, and so, so she has earned income. So
you've got to have earned income in order to fund, uh,
an IRA. Um, but you as a spouse could do that. So, uh,
that would allow you to, as a non-working spouse to contribute.
So between the two of you, you could put in 16,000.
(36:05):
So does that make sense to take a quarter of
your 250,000 and drop 16 in, and then maybe in
January do it again? Sure. I could get on board
with that. As long as, you know, you don't have
any high interest debt, you've got an emergency fund and
that mortgage is going to easily fit into your budget.
Then I would say, yeah, getting more money into a
tax deferred environment is a good thing because that's going
(36:28):
to give you, you know, a little bit more working
for you, uh, that you can eventually convert into an
income stream down the road.
S11 (36:37):
Okay. So the income from, uh, rolling it into, uh,
the IRAs would outweigh, um, the difference in the monthly
payment that we would make on a mortgage that was, uh,
was not paid down, I guess.
S1 (36:53):
Well, it just depends. Yeah. So that's the other challenge
is that, you know, right now where mortgage rates are.
I mean, let's call it 7%. Um, you know, in
order for you to get 7% a year to more
than offset the interest you're paying, you know, that's a
pretty good annual rate of return, and it's certainly not guaranteed.
(37:14):
Whereas the money you put into the house that you're
not having to pay 7%, you know, a year in
interest on is guaranteed. So I mean, think from a
pure dollars and cents standpoint, you're probably going to come
out better over a one year period by just paying
down the mortgage. You know, if you're going to end
up taking on a higher a bigger mortgage, you know,
(37:36):
maybe $32,000 more, um, because you put in 16 plus 16,
you're going to end up, you know, spending more in
interest than you're probably going to make. Now, you could
run the compounding effect of that out over the next
10 or 20 years and perhaps the, you know, mortgage, uh,
or the contribution of the IRA, especially given that she's
(37:57):
still working and you would get a deduction for that.
So there's some tax savings there that you could say
it outweighs the mortgage. You know the interest. But it's
not going to be by a lot. And so if
you would, you know, rather press toward becoming debt free
sooner rather than later, because as soon as you pay
off this mortgage in full, now you've taken your biggest
(38:18):
monthly expense, your mortgage payment, and it's gone. And that's
probably going to be really helpful in terms of just
keeping your lifestyle spending at a minimum, which means you
need less assets to support that because you're just not
spending as much on a monthly basis. And so I
think from that standpoint, there could be a case for
you to say, you know what? I'm going to go
(38:39):
ahead and just try to get out of debt as
soon as possible and not have a mortgage payment. Does
that make sense?
S11 (38:44):
And put it. Yes it does. So it sounds like
the balance of wisdom here is to put the entire
amount towards the new house.
S1 (38:53):
You know, I think you could go either way, but
I think you're right. Yes, I like that idea of
you all taking 100% of what you've built up in equity,
rolling it into the next place and saying, we're going
to try to get out of debt fully as soon
as we can and be without a mortgage payment, because
that's just going to make balancing the budget easier. And
I've never had anybody mark in all the years I've
been doing this, and I've probably answered more than 30,000 questions. Uh,
(39:17):
I've never had anybody call and say, Rob, I paid
off my mortgage last year and I've regretted it ever since.
I just don't get that call.
S11 (39:24):
I understand. Yeah. Plus, I guess the other idea is that, uh,
32,000 into our accounts will not boost it enough. As, like,
I was thinking 100,000 would.
S1 (39:35):
Yeah.
S11 (39:36):
So that would be just a marginal input on that
side of the equation.
S1 (39:40):
So I think that.
S11 (39:41):
Sounds like we'll just I think we'll just go with, uh,
putting it all into the, the new house.
S1 (39:46):
All right. Well you you're welcome. Mark, call anytime, my friend.
Lord bless you. Uh, let's see quickly. We're going to
go to, um, uh, Whitney in Florida. Whitney. Go ahead.
S12 (39:58):
Yeah. Hi, Rob. How are you?
S1 (40:00):
I'm great. Thank you.
S12 (40:01):
Yeah. A quick question for you. Um, I'm helping our family.
My wife's here with me. Her mother is 92. Um,
she is still living on her own. Amazingly, uh, she
comes down with us for half the year where we
live now, but, um, she wants to make sure that
the house is secure. Uh, now, into my wife's name, um,
(40:26):
in Connecticut. And we know the laws are a little
bit different there, so, uh, from, uh, Florida and, uh, basically,
she's already put it in the will that the house
is going to my wife, but she would like to
go ahead and put her, I guess you would say
name on the deed or give her the deed to
the house. Um, are one attorney suggested just doing a
quitclaim deed. However, when we talk to some other friends
(40:49):
that have gone through this, especially in Connecticut, they said
that that can still be contested and things like that
in Connecticut. And they said we were better off doing
a warranty deed. And then somebody else said, well, a
warranty deed means you need to buy the house, which
didn't make any sense. I was like, well, why? If
you buy the house, you're going to have the deed anyway, so.
But I could be wrong. Maybe I'm wrong on that.
(41:10):
But we wanted to see what's the best secure avenue
where it doesn't go into probate and it can't be
contested by some, you know, relative that could come out
of the woodwork. That's probably that's probably her biggest concern,
you know. And, um, so anyway, it is in the
will already that she's giving it to my wife, but
my wife and she, you know, I'm helping them out
to find out what would be the most secure way
(41:32):
that it doesn't go into probate and wouldn't be contested.
S1 (41:35):
Yeah. Good. Uh, well, at the end of the day,
you do need some legal counsel here. I mean, I
would say, first of all, I'm not an attorney. And
you're right. The laws of the state do matter. Uh,
both would be valid ways. Quitclaim and warranty, deed to
transfer ownership. A warranty deed does carry stronger legal protection,
is less likely to be challenged later, especially by heirs.
(41:58):
If you know that may or may not be an issue,
but it is less likely to be challenged. So I
think there is some validity to that. I think the
other consideration here is just a recognition that the downside
to receiving this as your wife's property prior to her
mom's death is that it's going to inherit the cost
basis so that when she ultimately sells it or the
(42:21):
two of you sell it, she's going to have to
pay capital gains from when her mom originally bought it,
versus if she waits and gets it through a trust
or a deed or a will, she gets a step
up in basis to the value market value as of
the date of death. So just keep that in mind.
But I would ultimately get counsel from an attorney. Thanks
for your call. Faith and Finance Live is a partnership
(42:43):
between Moody Radio and Faith by. Big thanks to my
team today, Lisa, Tyra, Taylor and Omar. See you tomorrow.
What does scripture really say about tithing and does it
still apply to Christians today? Hi, I'm Rob West. For some,
the tithe feels like a doorway to trusting God's provision.
For others, it's a source of guilt, confusion, or even
division in the church. John Cortinas joins us today to
help us take a fresh, biblical look at this ancient practice.
(00:28):
Then it's on to your calls at 800 525 7000.
That's 805, two five 7000. This is faith and finance. Live.
Biblical wisdom for your financial journey. Well, it's a privilege
to have my friend John Cortinas with us today as
director of Grant making at the MacLellan Foundation and a
(00:50):
frequent contributor to Faith. John brings a wealth of wisdom
to these conversations each time he joins us. And John,
it's great to have you back.
S2 (00:58):
Great to be with you, Rob. Thanks so much.
S1 (01:01):
John, your article on tithing and the new issue of
Faithful Steward. Our magazine starts with such a relatable moment.
It was you receiving your first paycheck and wrestling with
how to give. And maybe as a backdrop to this conversation,
you could share that story with us.
S2 (01:18):
Absolutely. Well, you know, like many people, I sort of
thought of Christian stewardship. You know, maybe it boils down
to giving 10% or tithing. That's something that's in our
Christian culture. But I got that first paycheck and I
ran into this question is, is it 10% gross of
the total amount or is it 10% net? Because like
anybody who's gotten that first big paycheck, you go, wow,
(01:38):
they paid me a lot less than 10% of what
the ticket was supposed to be. Um, and so 10%
net was small, 10% gross was big. And then I
realized that I'm getting all these benefits, like health insurance
and 401 K contributions, and should I be tithing on that?
And so 10% sounds easy, but I found that calculating
the right number and stressing over that was robbing me
(02:01):
of the joy of what Christian generosity should be.
S1 (02:04):
Mhm. Yeah. And I suspect many are listening audience really
resonate with that. Uh, you describe this potentially as even
a divisive issue. What do you think makes it such
a sensitive subject even within the church?
S2 (02:17):
Well, you know, I think that the teaching on this
varies so much. Um, but our Christian stewardship culture does
center maybe overly anchor. I would argue on this concept
of the tithe. Over the past decade, since I've been
in this space in a serious way, I've spoken to
hundreds and hundreds of people about their faith and finances.
And for some people, like you said, tithing has been
(02:39):
this doorway to trusting in God's provision and learning how
to faithfully give. But for other people, it's really tied
to a manipulative or even prosperity gospel style of teaching.
There are preachers today who will actually teach that if
you fail to religiously give 10% to their church, you'll
be under a financial curse from God. And so there's
(02:59):
often a lack of a fuller biblical framework that holds
truth and grace around this topic and really looks at
the tie biblically.
S1 (03:07):
Yeah, and that's why I so appreciate the approach you've
taken with this article. In Faithful Steward. It's titled tithing
A Fresh Look at an Ancient Practice. And you really
took a deep dive both into the Old and New Testament,
looking at each reference to the tithe, not only the word,
but really the teaching on giving as it relates to
(03:27):
the tithe. Let's start with the Old Testament and talk
about how it portrays tithing.
S2 (03:33):
Well, great. Yeah. So the the Bible mentions tithing 49
times across 15 different instances throughout Scripture and in the article.
For those who are curious, we highlight every one of
those instances. But just for some quick highlights in the
Old Testament, as you said, way back before the law,
we had Abraham giving a gift to Melchizedek, which predates
(03:54):
the law and honors the priesthood of God. And then
we see Jacob vowing to give 10%, but in his prayer,
it's kind of a conditional promise. If you do this, God,
I'll do that for you. It's not clear biblically whether
this is a model prayer that we should emulate the
style of or not. Then when we do get to
the law, we actually see three different tithes or three
(04:16):
different uses for the tithe, depending on which commentator you
might be reading. Those were the Levitical tithe to support
the priesthood. That's probably the most familiar for people, but
there were also festival tithes to fund the Jewish feasts.
And then there was a charity tithe to support the poor.
And throughout the history of Israel. And we see the
tithe mentioned a few more times. There were cycles of
(04:39):
neglect and then reform around these practices.
S1 (04:42):
Yeah. And so, John, if we were to annualize this again,
just looking at the Old Testament, it would have been
perhaps as much as 23 and a third percent annually.
Is that right?
S2 (04:53):
That's right. Again, there's some kind of disputes around the
edges of how would you calculate that? But a clear
cut 10% is not quite what it was.
S1 (05:00):
Yeah. No doubt about it. Well, when we come back,
we're going to continue to unpack this. What about the
New Testament? Are there principles we can take away from
the Old and New Testament to apply to our giving today?
And what does this look like practically? John Cortinez here
today we're talking about the tithe. John is director of
grantmaking at the MacLellan Foundation. Stay with us. Much more
(05:22):
to come. Thanks for joining us today on Faith and
Finance Live. I'm Rob West with me today. My friend
John Cortinez. He's director of grantmaking at the MacLellan Foundation.
He's also a frequent contributor here at Faith Fi, and
(05:43):
he has an article in our new issue of Faithful
Steward Magazine all about the tie. That really takes a
deep look and scripture at this ancient practice, and helps
us pull out principles that we can apply to our
giving today, hopefully helping you to overcome confusion, perhaps even
misunderstanding or divisiveness that has existed around this topic. John,
(06:08):
I so appreciate the approach you took at this, diving
into Scripture to really examine the tithe before the break
you took us into the Old Testament. I'd love to
hear about the New Testament and how it carries forward
the tithe, perhaps as a rule or not, for Christians
giving today.
S2 (06:26):
Well, this is fascinating, Rob, because, as you know, the
tithe is so central in what we hear and think
about stewardship as believers. But in the article, we list
the 21 richest chapters of stewardship teaching in the New Testament.
So you've got Jesus, you've got the apostles. They had
so much to say about money and giving. But what
was crazy to me is that they never once used
(06:46):
the tithe as a framework for Christian stewardship in the
New Testament church. Yeah. And I recognize that's a pretty
shocking statement. But the tithe is simply not a foundational
stewardship framework in the New Testament. Now, many people would
point out, but the word tithe does occur in the
New Testament. And yes, it's there four times. Each time,
if you get into it, it's used incidentally. It kind
(07:07):
of comes up as a side point in a broader conversation.
And in fact, Jesus criticizes those who believe that their
perfect tithing earns God's favor if their lives don't demonstrate
true humility, justice, mercy, and faithfulness. So as we look
at Christ and the apostles, they focus on gospel generosity,
which is voluntary and sacrificial and joyful and regularly scheduled
(07:31):
and brings glory to God.
S1 (07:33):
Yeah, there's no doubt about it. And I suspect there
are a lot of people listening today that are surprised
by what you just said about the lack of a
foundational teaching around the tithe in the New Testament. You did, however, though,
identify A55 key principles rooted in the Old Testament time
that we can pull forward to inform our giving today.
(07:56):
Let's examine those. Perhaps we can start with the first two.
S2 (07:59):
Well, that's right. And you know, we can argue for
years about how applicable is the tithe today. And I
think that's an important conversation. But what's very interesting to
ask for me is what is certain, what is universal
about the ancient tithes and what beauty can we find
in them? There's so much beauty in them. Uh, and
here's one we give to Christ as our priest and king.
(08:20):
And that actually reflects the truth that we saw when
Abraham gave to Melchizedek, honoring the spiritually greater person in
front of him. Yes. And then secondly, we do give
faithfully to our local church. It is good and proper
to fund ministry and care for our spiritual leaders, and
that honors the principle behind the Levitical tithe.
S1 (08:40):
Yeah, and I love this. You're honoring those Old Testament
tithes in how we give today. So we give to
Christ as priest and King. We give faithfully to our
local church. What are those other principles?
S2 (08:54):
Sure. So number three, this one is surprising as well.
It's to celebrate. You know, there was the festival tithe
where we set aside resources for feasting and celebrating God's
goodness and building a legacy of faith. But even it
points out in Scripture not to use debt to fund
those holy celebrations or those legacy building memorable times. That's three.
(09:15):
Four would be to care for the poor faithfully, which
honors the charity tithe by remembering the week. And then
here's number five. We recognize 10% as an ancient benchmark.
It's a helpful starting point. It's very easy math. It
may not be a legalistic yardstick in the church today. And,
you know, even in the Old Testament you talked about
the complications of the calculation. The tithe was the 10th
(09:38):
to pass under the shepherd's rod. What does that mean?
If I had nine new sheep born, well, that's no tithe.
If I had ten sheep, that's one for the tithe.
What if I had 17 sheep? Well, that's one for
the tithe. So it's 0%, 5%, 10% depending on how
many sheep are born. And that's in Leviticus 27 for
those who want to go look at it. But, you know,
you and I both have ten fingers and 10% is
(10:00):
the easiest fraction for a human being to calculate. So
even if I'm not under the law, that's a very
good ancient measuring stick if I'm going to think about
generous giving.
S1 (10:09):
Yeah. Well, and to your point earlier, you know, we should,
as New Testament believers, be giving proportionate and systematic, as
you said, regularly scheduled. And so this 10% starting point,
as Randy Alcorn says, that maybe the training wheels of
giving is an appropriate way to think about at least
part of our giving. Now, one of the other helpful
(10:31):
ways that we can understand this is perhaps hearing it
in the form of a story. In this article, you
actually present a case study comparing two individuals. We could
call them Jack and Cindy. I'd love for you to
share and summarize their stories and explain why they make
the point so effectively.
S2 (10:49):
Well, Sherry, you know, and Rob, just like you, I
have the privilege of talking to so many people about
their finances and their giving. And I had these two
real life conversations almost just a week apart. And so
it stuck in my mind. Let's call the first one Jack.
And he tithes confidently. And he said to me, and
I quote, he said, I tithe on the promise of Malachi.
I've heard teaching on this. I know it's true if
(11:09):
I'm tithing to my church. In fact, my personal income
will never go down. It can't go down. It will
only go up because of the blessing I'm securing for myself. Wow. Now,
by contrast, this other person, about a week later, totally
separate conversation. Let's call her Cindy. She's humble, she's concerned.
She said. My giving has fallen down to 9%. I'm
(11:30):
worried that I'm being unfaithful to the Lord. But meanwhile,
if you look at her life, she and her husband
host a church small group. They faithfully volunteer every Sunday,
and they actually had foster children in their middle class home,
and the expense of that was one of the reasons
their giving was stretched. And so if I go, let's
take a legalistic reading of 10% giving Jack wins and
(11:50):
Cindy loses. But if I honestly imagine that Jesus were
here in the conversation, I think it's clear which one
he might point to as living with the humility and
faithfulness that he calls us to.
S1 (12:01):
I love that example, John. It really does change the
way we think about this. So on a practical level
for our listeners today, how would you encourage them to
live out these principles then, without drifting into pride or
even guilt?
S2 (12:14):
Absolutely. Well, you know, I think one of the key
points here is to recognize that that Old Testament system,
there was a lot of complexity there. And giving is
not just one fixed calculation back then or today, even
beyond the tithe, if you go study the Old Testament,
there were lots of different offerings involved. So just a
word of caution here. Uh, this may be a strong statement,
but if someone is teaching that, you'll be especially blessed
(12:36):
if you give 10% of your money to their ministry
or church and even cursed if you don't. I'll just
say be cautious. That sounds maybe more manipulative than strictly biblical.
Be careful. That could be a prosperity gospel type of
environment that you're in. Yeah. And I'd encourage anybody to
check out the Faithful Steward article that has come out
and study those 21 chapters in the New Testament that
(12:57):
we list there. They all teach about joyful and sacrificial
scheduled grace giving, which should flow naturally out of our
lives as disciples of Christ. Anyone listening? I'd say start today.
Look at Second Corinthians, chapters eight and nine, first Timothy
chapter six. I mean, just beautiful teaching. And lastly, remember
that Jesus himself, he values humility and justice and mercy
(13:20):
over a perfectly calculated giving percentage. We see that in
Matthew 23, Luke 11, Luke 18.
S1 (13:26):
Yeah, John, just about 30s left. What's one takeaway, perhaps
one practice, that has been shaped by this study of
the tithe in your own life?
S2 (13:36):
Well, you know, every dollar is Christ's. Every breath I
take is Christ. Every dollar I have or spend. Not 10%,
but all of my life. And this whole conversation. It's
not an excuse to give less. My wife and I
personally give beyond 10%. But let me just say this
as we close, we don't give to get a special
blessing from God, we get to give. In other words,
(13:59):
we give because we've already received the greatest gift, which
is our salvation and adoption into the family of God.
S1 (14:05):
Wow. That is well said. John. So thankful for you
my friend. We appreciate you being here today.
S2 (14:10):
Thank you so much, Rob.
S1 (14:12):
That was John Martinez, director of Grant making at the
MacLellan Foundation. Folks, if you want to read the latest
issue of Faithful Steward, we'd invite you to become a
partner at faithful. Com. We'll be right back.
S3 (14:30):
The opinions offered during this program represent the personal or
professional opinions of the participants, given for informational purposes only.
Any information provided is not intended to replace advice from
a financial, medical, legal or other professional who understands your
specific situation.
S4 (14:57):
Great to have you with us today on Faith and finance.
S1 (14:59):
Live. I'm Rob West, really looking forward to taking your
calls and questions today. You can call with lines open
right now at 800 525 7000. Again, that number is
800 525 7000. At the moment we've got space for you.
We'd love to tackle whatever is on your mind today.
We will get to that in just a few moments.
So now is a great time to call again that
(15:21):
number 800 525 7000. Boy, it was great to have
John Cortinez here today. You know, as we think about
the life of a faithful steward, one of those natural
byproducts of managing God's money is that will be a
generous people. You know that as an overflow of our
gratitude toward the grace of God extended to us, beginning
(15:44):
and really ending with what he has done on the
cross on our behalf, on Calvary, that his death and
burial and resurrection, to pay the penalty for our sins,
that we would be reconciled to the father. Therein we
are rich. We have an abundance before the first dollar,
and as an overflow of gratitude to God, we should
(16:04):
be the most generous people. And I think that's why
I love thinking about the tithe and the work that
John Cortinez did is that under the law of Moses, uh,
you know, they didn't have the the benefit of seeing
what we have seen in terms of what Christ has
done for us. And so shouldn't we use that perhaps
as the minimum standard and be giving beyond that? Now
(16:25):
that we've seen what Christ has done for us, and
as an overflow of that, as an act of worship,
we give sacrificially and Chilean proportionately as God has entrusted
to us, and even sacrificially, you know, giving. Uh, you know,
where we feel it and and that it should be
a joyful experience, an act of worship. And and so
(16:47):
I love taking this deep dive into the to understand
where it comes from. And I love what John has
pulled forward, these principles that we can apply to our
giving here and now. But I also think that we
ought to be thinking about the role of generosity. Is
that perhaps the primary reason God has entrusted to us
what he has is so that we can help those
(17:08):
in need. We can be involved in supporting our local church.
We can give as unto the Lord into ministries and
activities that are on the heart of God, and taking
the gospel to the ends of the earth. And yes,
alongside enjoyment and provision, that giving is one of the
key roles as a faithful steward, and that when we give,
keep in mind, you know, we like to say it
(17:30):
breaks the grip of money over our lives that if
money can have a stranglehold over us, that it it
can hold on to our hearts and, uh, rival our
affection for God. That's misplaced affection. And nevertheless, it happens
that giving the act of holding it loosely, actually, uh,
causes that grip to be loosened. And it calibrates our
(17:53):
hearts to the father. And so as we give, there's
something that happens that we say, yes, God is my provider.
He owns everything. And so I can give it freely
because I know he will continue to provide. So hopefully
that was an encouragement to you today, as you heard
from John, one of our regular contributors. By the way,
if you'd like to check out this incredible article. Uh,
it's one of our features in the brand new edition,
(18:17):
the latest edition of our Faithful Steward magazine. And if
you'd like to receive each issue of Faithful Steward, a
great way to support the ministry, if you love the program,
is to become a faithful partner and partners receive every
issue of Faithful Steward. Each of our new studies and devotionals,
typically two per year access to the pro version of
(18:38):
the Faith VI app, where you can manage your spending
plan and connect your accounts securely, download transactions automatically, and
get quarterly updates from me on the ministry, and be
a part of the work here to reach people with
this message of managing God's money God's way well. Just
head to our website. To learn more. That's faithful. All right.
(19:01):
Let's dive into those questions. Today we're going to begin
in Chicago. Chris, thanks for calling. How can I help you?
S5 (19:07):
Good afternoon. Thank you for taking my call. Absolutely. I
don't have a problem with tithing, but I am retired
now and I have a private pension through the state. No,
it's not through the state. I was in education, but
not non-union anyway, so they took out of my paycheck,
(19:29):
I think 5% of what I earned and put it
in my pension, and we had the option of taking
an extra up to 10%, which I did the last
ten years toward my pension. So that money's already been
tithed on. So every first of the month when I
get my pension, I feel guilty not tithing on it,
but it's already been tithed on. So that's my question.
S6 (19:51):
And we yes, we do tithe and we give.
S5 (19:54):
At least 60 to 70%. Um, 6 to 7% above
tithe to in offerings and missions, etc..
S1 (20:03):
Yes. Very good. Uh, I love this question. And, you know,
you want to clearly honor the Lord as you give
on the increase. But what you're saying is there's a
good portion of this that I'm receiving that is the increase.
And it I think it's perhaps helpful not to be legalistic,
but just to get to an understanding of what truly
is an increase. It's helpful to think about your pitch.
(20:26):
And pitching pension is made up of two parts. Number
one is a return of your own contribution, the money
you put in over the years. So you said 5%
for every paycheck. You tithed on the growth, so you
tithed on that. And then there's the what you might
consider the growth and the employer contributions, what your employer
added and the investment earnings that built up over time. Um,
(20:49):
and so in very rough terms, a small portion of
each pension payment is your own money coming back. That
would be the return of contribution. The rest you could
consider increase the investment growth and the employer's share. And
so I think if you want to think about it
in that light, the increase portion is what you've gained
beyond what you contributed. And that would be considered increase. Um,
(21:13):
and so you may want to think about that in
terms of, you know, you could take it as a
50 over 50 kind of deal. You could do 25, 75,
25 as a return of contribution, 75 Employer and growth. Uh,
you know, some people just decide to go ahead and
and tithe on the whole thing, seeing all of it
as a gracious gift from God and and keeping it
(21:35):
very simple. But at the end of the day, God
is not an accountant. He wants your heart. That was
the the idea behind what we were sharing today. Although
I really appreciate your desire to be found faithful, and
I understand that's the heart behind the question you're asking
in the first place. So stay on the line. I
want to get your thoughts on that during the break here.
We'll be right back.
S4 (22:01):
Thanks for joining us today.
S1 (22:02):
On Faith and Finance Live here on Moody Radio. I'm
Rob West. We're so glad to have you along with
us today. You know, a lot of well-meaning stewards ask
that question about how do I think about the tithe
I want to give on my increase? I want to
give as unto the Lord, starting with my with my
local church. And then I give beyond the tithe sacrificially,
and as the Lord leads. But with regard to the increase,
(22:23):
how do I determine what that is in retirement? And,
you know, some choose to, uh, give from all the
income they receive in retirement, including pensions and Social Security,
because they see it as an opportunity to express ongoing
trust in God's provision and to invest in his kingdom.
Others look at trying to break down and a rough sense,
(22:45):
and you have to make some kind of judgment calls on, okay,
how long am I going to live? Well, I have
no idea. Only the Lord knows that. And so I
might use a normal life expectancy. And and so you
might think of Social Security as more of like a 40, 60, 40,
what you paid in 60, you know, percent for a
normal life expectancy as a return of the, quote, investment increase. Um,
(23:11):
you could look at the same thing with a pension, uh,
you know, with an investment account like a 401 K,
you know, some portion or percentage of what you're taking
out every month represents what you put in during your
working years, and other percentage, you know, represents what would
be considered the investment gain. You know, you could use
(23:31):
like a 4060 on that as well. So I think
ultimately it's asking the Lord to guide you and how
you honor him with what you receive, whether that means
continuing a full tithe, giving as you're led, or directing
generosity in new ways. The goal is always the same
to reflect gratitude, faith, and ultimately dependence on him. And
(23:54):
I know there's not a definitive there, which is a
good thing, right? Because it sends you back to your
knees to say, Lord, what would you have me to do?
And then speak to each of us separately about that,
that decision. All right. I hope that helps. Let's head to, uh,
Rhonda in South Carolina. Rhonda. Go ahead.
S7 (24:12):
Um, hi. How are you?
S1 (24:14):
Great. Thanks for calling.
S7 (24:16):
Um, I had a friend who told me that they
only will chip 10% when they go out to restaurants,
because they don't want to give a waitress more than
they give to God. So now whenever I go out,
I think about that in my in my handling it
wrong or or how should you think about that?
S4 (24:36):
Yeah, I think.
S1 (24:37):
That mindset confuses two very different acts tithing and tipping.
And really, perhaps, uh, you know, is a misunderstanding of
both God's heart and generosity. So tithing is an act
of worship and trust toward God, acknowledging that everything we
have belongs to him, not 10%, 100%. We see that
(24:58):
in Deuteronomy 1423, among other places. So it's not a
payment or a transaction, but a spiritual discipline expressing gratitude
and dependence. Tipping, on the other hand, is showing appreciation
for someone's service and and really contributing to their livelihood.
So I think limiting generosity toward others out of a
(25:19):
comparison to what we quote give. God turns giving into
a more of a competition rather than an overflow of love.
Jesus calls us to treat others with compassion and generosity,
and when we give to a server, we're not worshiping them.
Of course, we're honoring God by being kind and just
and generous toward his image bearer. Uh, you know, Jesus
(25:43):
never rebuked people for being too generous. Uh, you know,
we see a classic story in God's word would be
when Zacchaeus repented, you remember, he went far beyond what
the law required, giving half his possessions to the poor
and repaying four times what he had taken. And Jesus
didn't correct him. He rejoiced, saying, today salvation has come
to this house. So I think true generosity reflects a
(26:06):
transformed heart. And Scripture actually says that when we give
to others, we're in fact giving to God. You can
see that in Matthew 2520. So, you know, at the
end of the day, we can't outgive God. And the
tithe is not a ceiling on generosity, but I think
a starting point for a life of open handed stewardship.
(26:26):
And so I think at the end of the day, um,
you know, you giving a tithe as the beginning point
for your giving to God and then giving beyond that, uh,
offerings and even sacrificial giving as the Lord leads is
separate from your tipping. And I think, uh, you know,
today 20%, certainly 15%, at a minimum for good service
(26:49):
is really normal and customary and is, uh, is a
way we can honor those who serve us well and again,
contribute to their livelihood. And I would have no problem.
In fact, I would encourage that personally. Is that helpful though?
S7 (27:03):
That is very helpful. Thank you so much.
S1 (27:06):
All right. Lord bless you. Thank you for calling. Rhonda
800 525 7000 is the number to call. We've got
some lines open today. We'd love to tackle your financial
question again. Any question today? 800 525 7000. Our team
is standing by. Let's go to Tampa. Hi, Naomi. How
can I help you?
S8 (27:25):
Hi. First time caller.
S4 (27:27):
Oh, great.
S9 (27:28):
I'm a little nervous.
S4 (27:29):
Oh. Don't be.
S1 (27:30):
We're delighted you're here today.
S8 (27:33):
Okay. Thank you for having me. Um. Of course. My
question is, um, I recently formed a trust. Um, I
owned two properties. Um, one is paid off and one
is not. So both of those property, um, is in
the same name as my deed. So my question is,
do I need to redeem the homes, um, you know,
(27:57):
to be a part of the trust? Or since they're
both in my name and the deed, I can leave
them as his.
S1 (28:05):
Hmm. Yeah. Good question. So if the.
S4 (28:08):
Trust.
S1 (28:08):
And the name on the deed are already the same,
the key is understanding how the title is held. So
even if the names match, the property has to be
deeded into the name of the trust itself, not just
share the same name as the trustee or the owner.
So here's what that means. If the deed is currently
(28:30):
listed in your name personally, uh, you know, I'll use
a fictitious name, Jane Smith, but the trust is is
called the Jane Smith Living Trust. Jane still needs to
redeem the property. So the owner is shown as Jane Smith, comma,
trustee of the, you know, Jane Smith Living Trust with
(28:52):
the date. That's what legally transfers ownership from her individually
into the trust. Now, if you already did that when
you formed the trust, then you're covered. But if the
deed still lists you as the individual owner, even though
you you as the individual are the same name as
(29:13):
the name on the trust. That's not enough. You would
need to contact your title company or a state attorney
to record a new quitclaim or warranty deed, transferring it
into the trust itself, not just having a shared name,
if that makes sense.
S8 (29:31):
Okay. Yes. Thank you. That's covered my question.
S10 (29:35):
Thank you for that. Very good.
S1 (29:37):
Let me let me say it's always good to get
legal counsel. And so that's why I think reaching out
to that estate attorney or a real estate attorney is good.
I am not an attorney, but just generally speaking, it's
not enough to have a the same personal name on
the deed as the name represented in the trust. We
actually need to transfer the ownership from you individually to
(29:58):
the trust itself, in order for the trust documents to
govern the distribution of this property at the appropriate time.
So thank you for your call today. I think that's
a good move that you made. That's going to make
things really, uh, simple and efficient at your passing. Or
if you become incapacitated, uh, and not involve any probate
(30:21):
costs or time, uh, at your death. Thank you for
calling today. Well, folks, we're going to take a break.
When we come back, we'll have our final segment today,
but we still have room for perhaps 1 or 2
more questions. So something going on in your financial life
you'd like some counsel in light of biblical wisdom? Call.
Right now we've got room for you. 800 525 7000.
(30:45):
This is Faith and finance live. We'll be right back.
S4 (30:57):
Hey, great to have you with us today. If you'd
like to find.
S1 (31:00):
An advisor, a financial professional, somebody to help you with
financial planning or wealth management, but to ensure that they
operate from a biblical worldview. They share your values as
a Christ follower. They've met significant standards and character and
integrity and experience. Pastor reference and client reference. Well, that's
(31:21):
the Certified Kingdom Advisor designation. It's the only financial services
industry designation that is around and offers financial advisors who
can bring a biblical perspective of financial decision making. And
you can find a K in your area. Just just
head to find a com. Can't be any easier than that.
(31:42):
Find a com you can put in your zip code
and see all the professionals in your area. All right,
let's head back to the phones. Fox River Grove, Illinois. Hi, Mark.
Go ahead.
S11 (31:54):
Hi. How are you.
S4 (31:56):
Doing? Great.
S1 (31:56):
Thanks for your call, sir.
S11 (31:59):
Well, I have a question for you. Okay, okay. We're
selling our house because we're thinking of moving. And I'm
wondering if it's better to take the entire proceeds of
the sale and put it into the new house, or
if we should take part of it and put it
in our retirement accounts. I am retired right now, and
we just like to have a little more income in our,
(32:23):
you know, every month. Yeah. And I'm thinking that if
we put something extra into the retirement accounts, you know,
we would have that extra coming in. So what do
you think? Is it does it balance out like, uh,
you know, percentage wise or what do you think?
S1 (32:38):
Yeah. Yeah, it's a good question. So tell me a
few more specifics here. So you've sold your home. Uh,
how much did you clear on that sale?
S11 (32:48):
I'm going to sell it.
S1 (32:48):
Or you're going to sell it. Okay. What do you
what do you think you'll get?
S11 (32:52):
Well, for round numbers, let's just say 250,000.
S1 (32:56):
Okay.
S11 (32:56):
And so someplace a little closer to 300,000 because of
the location we're going to.
S1 (33:02):
Okay. And so the question is, um, you know, let's
say you were to roll all that in. You'd have
a very small $50,000 mortgage thereabouts. Right. Versus you taking
a portion of this and redirecting it and ending up
with a a bigger mortgage? Um, the question would be,
where would you, uh, how would you put that money
(33:23):
into retirement? Are you all still working? And you put
it into a 401 K, or what would you do?
S11 (33:31):
Well, um, I think between my wife and I, we
should be able to roll it into the, uh, into our.
We have, uh, three different accounts. And, uh, I understand
that you can put a certain amount in per year, including, like,
last year. And, uh, so we should be able to
get pretty close to being able to put it all
(33:51):
into our accounts.
S1 (33:53):
Okay. What kind of accounts are they? Do you know
what type of retirement accounts?
S11 (33:59):
Uh, well, they're both, uh, 401 s are rolled over
into just, you know, retirement accounts.
S1 (34:06):
Okay. So they're IRAs, probably individual retirement accounts.
S11 (34:10):
Right? Yes.
S1 (34:11):
Okay. Yeah. So the challenge is, you know, 50 and
older with the $1,000 catch up, the most you can
put in for 2025 is going to be $8,000 each.
So if you each had 401 KS that you rolled over,
they stay individual. You can't combine them. So there is
no joint IRA. So that means your your 401 KS
(34:33):
that each of you had at your employers are now
in two IRAs, one in your name, one in hers.
You could each put in 8000 a year, so the
most you could put in of that quarter of $1
million would be 16,000. Now, you could turn around and
do that again next year, um, as a 2026 contribution.
(34:55):
But that would be the max you could put in.
S11 (34:59):
Oh, I thought there was a lookback kind of a
deal where you could put in for like last year
or something like that to know?
S1 (35:06):
Well, the only place that comes up is you can
contribute to the prior year until you file that year's return.
So for instance, uh, for 2025, you'd have until April
of 26, but the time has already passed for you
to fund, let's say, 2024. So at this point, the
(35:26):
most you could put in would be 16,000 for 2025.
And then turn around and do another 16,000, 8000 in
each one. Uh, for 2026. Now you have to have
earned income. But it sounds like you do because you're
continuing to work, right?
S11 (35:41):
No, my wife is.
S1 (35:43):
Okay. Uh, and so, so she has earned income. So
you've got to have earned income in order to fund, uh,
an IRA. Um, but you as a spouse could do that. So, uh,
that would allow you to, as a non-working spouse to contribute.
So between the two of you, you could put in 16,000.
(36:05):
So does that make sense to take a quarter of
your 250,000 and drop 16 in, and then maybe in
January do it again? Sure. I could get on board
with that. As long as, you know, you don't have
any high interest debt, you've got an emergency fund and
that mortgage is going to easily fit into your budget.
Then I would say, yeah, getting more money into a
tax deferred environment is a good thing because that's going
(36:28):
to give you, you know, a little bit more working
for you, uh, that you can eventually convert into an
income stream down the road.
S11 (36:37):
Okay. So the income from, uh, rolling it into, uh,
the IRAs would outweigh, um, the difference in the monthly
payment that we would make on a mortgage that was, uh,
was not paid down, I guess.
S1 (36:53):
Well, it just depends. Yeah. So that's the other challenge
is that, you know, right now where mortgage rates are.
I mean, let's call it 7%. Um, you know, in
order for you to get 7% a year to more
than offset the interest you're paying, you know, that's a
pretty good annual rate of return, and it's certainly not guaranteed.
(37:14):
Whereas the money you put into the house that you're
not having to pay 7%, you know, a year in
interest on is guaranteed. So I mean, think from a
pure dollars and cents standpoint, you're probably going to come
out better over a one year period by just paying
down the mortgage. You know, if you're going to end
up taking on a higher a bigger mortgage, you know,
(37:36):
maybe $32,000 more, um, because you put in 16 plus 16,
you're going to end up, you know, spending more in
interest than you're probably going to make. Now, you could
run the compounding effect of that out over the next
10 or 20 years and perhaps the, you know, mortgage, uh,
or the contribution of the IRA, especially given that she's
(37:57):
still working and you would get a deduction for that.
So there's some tax savings there that you could say
it outweighs the mortgage. You know the interest. But it's
not going to be by a lot. And so if
you would, you know, rather press toward becoming debt free
sooner rather than later, because as soon as you pay
off this mortgage in full, now you've taken your biggest
(38:18):
monthly expense, your mortgage payment, and it's gone. And that's
probably going to be really helpful in terms of just
keeping your lifestyle spending at a minimum, which means you
need less assets to support that because you're just not
spending as much on a monthly basis. And so I
think from that standpoint, there could be a case for
you to say, you know what? I'm going to go
(38:39):
ahead and just try to get out of debt as
soon as possible and not have a mortgage payment. Does
that make sense?
S11 (38:44):
And put it. Yes it does. So it sounds like
the balance of wisdom here is to put the entire
amount towards the new house.
S1 (38:53):
You know, I think you could go either way, but
I think you're right. Yes, I like that idea of
you all taking 100% of what you've built up in equity,
rolling it into the next place and saying, we're going
to try to get out of debt fully as soon
as we can and be without a mortgage payment, because
that's just going to make balancing the budget easier. And
I've never had anybody mark in all the years I've
been doing this, and I've probably answered more than 30,000 questions. Uh,
(39:17):
I've never had anybody call and say, Rob, I paid
off my mortgage last year and I've regretted it ever since.
I just don't get that call.
S11 (39:24):
I understand. Yeah. Plus, I guess the other idea is that, uh,
32,000 into our accounts will not boost it enough. As, like,
I was thinking 100,000 would.
S1 (39:35):
Yeah.
S11 (39:36):
So that would be just a marginal input on that
side of the equation.
S1 (39:40):
So I think that.
S11 (39:41):
Sounds like we'll just I think we'll just go with, uh,
putting it all into the, the new house.
S1 (39:46):
All right. Well you you're welcome. Mark, call anytime, my friend.
Lord bless you. Uh, let's see quickly. We're going to
go to, um, uh, Whitney in Florida. Whitney. Go ahead.
S12 (39:58):
Yeah. Hi, Rob. How are you?
S1 (40:00):
I'm great. Thank you.
S12 (40:01):
Yeah. A quick question for you. Um, I'm helping our family.
My wife's here with me. Her mother is 92. Um,
she is still living on her own. Amazingly, uh, she
comes down with us for half the year where we
live now, but, um, she wants to make sure that
the house is secure. Uh, now, into my wife's name, um,
(40:26):
in Connecticut. And we know the laws are a little
bit different there, so, uh, from, uh, Florida and, uh, basically,
she's already put it in the will that the house
is going to my wife, but she would like to
go ahead and put her, I guess you would say
name on the deed or give her the deed to
the house. Um, are one attorney suggested just doing a
quitclaim deed. However, when we talk to some other friends
(40:49):
that have gone through this, especially in Connecticut, they said
that that can still be contested and things like that
in Connecticut. And they said we were better off doing
a warranty deed. And then somebody else said, well, a
warranty deed means you need to buy the house, which
didn't make any sense. I was like, well, why? If
you buy the house, you're going to have the deed anyway, so.
But I could be wrong. Maybe I'm wrong on that.
(41:10):
But we wanted to see what's the best secure avenue
where it doesn't go into probate and it can't be
contested by some, you know, relative that could come out
of the woodwork. That's probably that's probably her biggest concern,
you know. And, um, so anyway, it is in the
will already that she's giving it to my wife, but
my wife and she, you know, I'm helping them out
to find out what would be the most secure way
(41:32):
that it doesn't go into probate and wouldn't be contested.
S1 (41:35):
Yeah. Good. Uh, well, at the end of the day,
you do need some legal counsel here. I mean, I
would say, first of all, I'm not an attorney. And
you're right. The laws of the state do matter. Uh,
both would be valid ways. Quitclaim and warranty, deed to
transfer ownership. A warranty deed does carry stronger legal protection,
is less likely to be challenged later, especially by heirs.
(41:58):
If you know that may or may not be an issue,
but it is less likely to be challenged. So I
think there is some validity to that. I think the
other consideration here is just a recognition that the downside
to receiving this as your wife's property prior to her
mom's death is that it's going to inherit the cost
basis so that when she ultimately sells it or the
(42:21):
two of you sell it, she's going to have to
pay capital gains from when her mom originally bought it,
versus if she waits and gets it through a trust
or a deed or a will, she gets a step
up in basis to the value market value as of
the date of death. So just keep that in mind.
But I would ultimately get counsel from an attorney. Thanks
for your call. Faith and Finance Live is a partnership
(42:43):
between Moody Radio and Faith by. Big thanks to my
team today, Lisa, Tyra, Taylor and Omar. See you tomorrow.
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