Episode 318: 2024 Middle Infield Review

We continue with our positional group reviews from 2024, this time focusing on middle infielders. Shorstops were great! Second basemen, not as much. Also, listen to Mike beoming audibly disturbed when Jon whispers the words "Wenceel Perez." 

Flags Fly Forever is a Baseball Prospectus podcast. For more fantasy baseball information, visit baseballprospectus.com and click on "Fantasy."

You can find Flags Fly Forever on Bluesky...soon (stay tuned!). The hosts of Flags Fly Forever are Mike Gianella(@mikegianella.bsky.social) and Jon Hegglund(@jonhegglund.bsky.social). The producer of Flags Fly Forever is Jon Hegglund. 

Special thanks to the awesome and generous Petite League for permission to use their track "Mets" for the intro and break music. Find their sweet lo-fi indie-pop sounds at petiteleague.com.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Welcome to episode three eighteen of Flags Fly Forever, a
baseball prospective fantasy baseball podcast. I'm Mike Janella over there
with me as co host and behind the glasses John Heglund, John,
how you doing.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
I'm doing all right.

Speaker 3 (00:36):
We got our first snow a couple of days ago.
I mean it didn't really stick. We got about I
don't know, maybe a little less than an inch yesterday morning,
and it just really made me sad that there have
been no free agent signings of note yet.

Speaker 4 (00:54):
So yeah, well, first of all, way to go right
into the weather talk.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
That's just going to bring back the flags.

Speaker 1 (01:01):
That's great, Dad, I was gonna say, is Samuel like
back back there somewhere like in the wings, like, uh,
we're yeah here, it's it's cold and we might we
might we We've actually had like droughtish conditions, but it
rained today, which was good. And there's a possibility of
some some like flurries here, so there there might be

(01:24):
that as as well.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
For for sure, this has been weather with Mike and John.

Speaker 4 (01:29):
Yeah, we're doing the weather.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
We're not just going to talk about the weather tonight, Nope.
I mean we could if you want to. I think
people would. I'll just say as far as the free
agents go, before we get into the fantasy side of things.
One advantage of like like Blue Sky versus Twitter is,
even though Blue Sky's coming to life, I'm still kind
of not really plugged in to all the baseball stuff yet,

(01:50):
I've almost seen the residue of the complaining of like
the lack of signings, and you know, by now I'm
kind of used to it, like it's worse than it's been.
But this is just the way it's been the last
few years where teams don't really start to do anything
until December, and some of them are you know, gently
colluding against you know, or not.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
Being aggressive so that never happens.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
That couldn't be. So yeah, we'll see what we see.
I imagine, you know, players will sign on. Interestingly, like
more people are talking to Blake Snell now it seems
than they were a year ago at this time, So
who knows, maybe we'll maybe we will see some action
next month. That's That's what I'm expecting. But we're not
here to talk about that. We are here to continue

(02:35):
our twenty twenty four look backs, and tonight we're going
to do middle infielders. So for those of you who
didn't listen last week, John, why don't you briefly run
through the our format.

Speaker 3 (02:48):
So what we're doing is we are going from Mike's
positional tier articles from the spring and just looking back.

Speaker 5 (02:57):
Tier by tier. Five star, four star, three are two star,
one star.

Speaker 3 (03:01):
And then we're looking at some reserve slash free agents,
those who were picked late or added in season who
were of note. So it's just trying to get a
snapshot of what the twenty twenty four season looked like
in comparison to what we had projected in the spring.

(03:24):
And tonight we're doing middle infield, so we're going to
kind of lump together second base and shortstop and you know,
look at the position as a whole and see how
it shook out in this past season.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, so we're going to start with each tier, and
you know, just as a reminder of how this works,
the five star tiers the first and this is fifteen
teen leagues, so five stars like the first two rounds,
picks one through thirty four, Star three through six through
thirty one through ninety three, Star around seven through thirteen,

(04:02):
picks ninety one through one, ninety five, two Star rounds
fourteen through nineteen one, ninety six through two eighty five,
and the one stars rounds twenty through twenty three or
two eighty six through through three forty five. So that
that's the setup, John, Do you want to rattle off
at second and short Yeah, so the five star will do.

(04:22):
There's quite a bit, especially at short at shortstop.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
I'll start with second base.

Speaker 3 (04:26):
We had three five star players in the spring. They
were Mookie Betts, who subsequently gained eligibility at shortstop.

Speaker 2 (04:39):
He wasn't shortstop eligible. Was he going season? He wasn't right?

Speaker 1 (04:43):
Well he was, I think he wasn't tout Wars, but
that's a fifteen game. So yeah, it was in instandard
twenty games, second and outfield, we have Mooki.

Speaker 3 (04:51):
In second we had all Ozzie Albi's and Marcus Simeon.
And then at the shortstop position in our five star tier,
we had Bobby Wood Junior, Trey Turner, Francisco Lindor, m VP,
Ellie de la Cruz, and Corey Seeger.

Speaker 4 (05:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
What are your thoughts?

Speaker 1 (05:09):
Well, I assume you're being funny about Lindor because you know,
as great as he was, well, he's my MVP.

Speaker 4 (05:15):
Yeah, I mean, we love him.

Speaker 1 (05:17):
But the first thing it really jumps out is like
shortstops at the top really, you know, really performed. And
you know, my apologies if you drafted Seeger, who was
was very good, but but just you look at the
the other four shortstops. You know, I didn't incorporate this
in the like spreadsheet I share with you, but you know,

(05:38):
just looking at overall performance, not just offense, Bobby Witt
was second overall, Ellie Ellie was fifth, Lindor was tenth,
and you know, even Turner, who you know was kind
of a sort of kind of sort of disappointment, was
you know, was a little bit like lower than that,
but still still solid. So this was like a really

(06:03):
like this was a group of players that delivered, right,
Like this is sort of this sort of boring type
of the most part.

Speaker 3 (06:08):
Yeah, well, I so Corey Seger, who was the one
player who did not finish top ten among shortstops. Can
you guess what Corey Seeger's slugging percentages over the last
two years, so twenty three and twenty four, what's his slug.

Speaker 4 (06:25):
Five point fifty or something. I know, it's really good.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
It's five sixty seven and I was close. You were close.

Speaker 3 (06:32):
It was a good guess. I mean, you know, Price's
right style. You probably would win thirty home runs in
each of the last few season, and that's despite playing
in one hundred and nineteen games in twenty three and
one hundred and twenty three games this past year. Like
when Seger was healthy, I mean, you were definitely getting him,
getting what you wanted from a power perspective. So I'm

(06:55):
inclined to say that, you know, really you didn't have
any bus in this tier even if seegers, you know,
playing time, his injuries became an issue.

Speaker 5 (07:04):
I mean, it was really just you sort of got
what you expected for expected from this tier.

Speaker 3 (07:09):
And I think with Ellie, I think we were both
pretty skeptical going in. Yeah, and he managed to get
that value mostly because of those those steals.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yeah, the steels were a large part of it, you know,
just to you know, kind of point out because people,
I think often forget this, like steals are have been
a little less valuable the last two years because because
of the context. However, so many you know, even with
all the stolen bases, it didn't really matter, right because
he was just like so dynamic in the category, and

(07:44):
I think it's probably a lesson. You know, we talked
about jack you know, Jackson Curio last week, sort of
a lesson not to like discount these guys too much.
Like I'm not saying you want to push them into
like the top five, but you do want to be like, Okay, well,
these these players are are better than you know, they
have a higher ceiling, I should say, than we might expect. Now,

(08:06):
second base was was a different story. You know, Mookie
was Mookie Bets was good, and I'm actually surprised at
how like overall, I think he was still in the
cusp of like a three four like turn player, but
still like, you know, not not somebody where you're like, okay,
like that, this is somebody who came close to his value.

(08:30):
Like he was definitely disappointment. It was it was the injury,
of course, but you know it's you can't just ignore that,
like there was certainly a factor there. And then you
know the other two players at second base, you know,
Ozzy Albi's and Marcus Semi and both were you know,
to varying degrees, disappointing. Oddly enough, Semi and more so
because he was mostly healthy. Like you look at his production,

(08:50):
you're like like that sort of is the fear with
him right that, you know, even a healthy Semi, and
like once he tailed off, it's like, what are what
are we getting here?

Speaker 3 (09:00):
Well, I guess maybe the other way to look at
that is because of the the seven hundred plate appearances,
which he topped again. You know, even if he was
a disappointment as far as the power, I mean everything
sort of ticked down, you still have that floor of

(09:20):
just accumulation with him. Like I feel like this was
the year where, you know, because I had him in
one or two places and it was like, well it
wasn't a total wash out and you're getting production.

Speaker 5 (09:33):
You know, he's going to be leading off every day, but.

Speaker 3 (09:37):
You kind of it's kind of I think that, you know,
the canary and the coal mine for what's to come
with him, especially when you look at like the the
sad cast numbers are really really tailing off, and I
feel like, you know, you know, Ages is finally catching
up with Semi in a bit.

Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yeah, I agree with all that, and I think that's
that's sort of the bottom line, right which is I'm
say he's going to like completely fall off the cliff.
It's more that the fall off has already started. So yeah,
you just kind of want to be careful as far
as you know what you're you know, kind of what
you see there with him anything else. And at the top,

(10:16):
like I know, the top sometimes is sort of we
don't want to gloss over it. But I think this
is where other podcasts like obsessed a little bit. It's like, yeah,
most of these players kind of are.

Speaker 3 (10:26):
Well, I do have one question for you. Maybe it's
because you know you're in Philadelphia. So if we go
back to shortstop, and I know Turner was out for
a good chunk of the season, but if you pro
rated his steals, he I think still would have been
under thirty steals. And how much do you think the
hitting second behind Schwarber and his you know, one hundred

(10:48):
and six walks or whatever is is putting a damper
on on Turner's steals?

Speaker 5 (10:54):
Like, so would you project, yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
Well I was going to say this is a thing
we're being in Philadelphia help because I actually didn't know
this until I talked to like one of my Philly
fan friends. During the playoffs, Turner didn't run not so
much because of Schoreber, but because he hid an injury
earlier in the season, and when he came back, both
both Turner and the Phillies reluctant to.

Speaker 4 (11:17):
Have him run, So that was part of it.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
So I think if he's healthy in spring training, I
think he can certainly run again. Now he's certainly reaching
the age where I wouldn't say, you know, he's going
to go back to stealing forty or fifty bases. I
think twenty five thirty might be the more realistic target.
But that was what happened with Turner. Like Turner came
back and the team was like, we don't want you
out there, you know, seiling bases, risking injury. You know,

(11:42):
he was he was pretty he was pretty tentative.

Speaker 2 (11:46):
Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 3 (11:47):
I mean I think maybe that even even though I
agree that, you know, he's he's probably going to have
a slow decline of steals. I mean, his his speed
his stackcast speed rating went down from one hundred to
ninety six, so you know that's he's getting pretty sluggish there.

Speaker 4 (12:05):
He's slowing down.

Speaker 3 (12:06):
Yeah, but but yeah, I don't know that that's good
to know.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
And uh, I don't know.

Speaker 5 (12:13):
I might be looking at Trey Turner next year.

Speaker 4 (12:16):
But we'll see, Yeah, I don't.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
This is the thing to point out to our listeners.
We we really are not looking at ADP yet. I
won't look until next month. Like I know, a lot
of people are already drafting. I'm just trying not to
you know, get biased bye by looking at that, at
least not yet.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
Trying to scroll pat now that there's there's more baseball
and blue Sky.

Speaker 3 (12:37):
You know, people are posting screenshots of ADP, so I
got I gotta, you know, whiz past those, so I don't.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
People are Yeah, people are telling you about Gladiator and
not just you know that this the long awaited sequel
to the you know what was it two.

Speaker 4 (12:50):
Thousand and one Oscar? When? Or was it? Was it earlier? Over?
What year it was?

Speaker 2 (12:55):
It was around then?

Speaker 5 (12:57):
Ridley Scott's finest moment.

Speaker 4 (12:59):
For sure, yep, four star tier.

Speaker 3 (13:02):
We've got on the second base side, Jose Altuve, Nico Horner,
Glaber Taurus and has Yon Kim and over on the
shortstop side, we've got Gunner, Henderson, cj Abrams, Bobaschett and
O'Neil Cruz.

Speaker 2 (13:18):
Where should we start?

Speaker 1 (13:21):
Let let's uh let's start at second base, since we
started it at st so you know something a few
interesting things here. I think al Toovey, and there's this
is a theme I think kind of with a few players,
like I think when we think of five category players,
like we think of the obvious, like you know, thirty thirty,

(13:44):
you know, in case of like Showo TODDI like fifty
to fifty. But Altuvee was a five category player. That
that's kind of what propped up his value was the
second base, second best second baseman, fifteenth best hitter overall.
And if you look at the line right like you
wouldn't look at Toov and think wow, like he he
was like amazing.

Speaker 4 (14:02):
He blew the doors off.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
It was like no, like he was more just somebody
who did something like all the way around across the board.
And I think the other one who's surprised me was
Nico Horner. Like Nico Horner, I I my perception of him,
I didn't have anywhere this year. I don't know if
you did or not. My perception was like as a
big disappointment. But you kind of look at his numbers
and it's like it was really like more like a

(14:25):
slight drop off, you know, fantasy wise, because really as
a hitter, he was pretty much the same hitter in
real life, but faris wise, it was like a slight
drop off, and you look at what he did and
you're like, okay, well he was actually really good. Like you,
you can quite get what you paid for, but you
you did get somebody who I think delivered like.

Speaker 3 (14:44):
Value, right, and you got thirty steel, You got thirty
one steels out of out of Horner, and you know
that it's you weren't You were probably not banking on
the forty three he got previous season.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
But yeah, I think he you know, he is what
he is.

Speaker 3 (14:59):
I mean, so the RBI tailed off considerably, you know,
only forty eight RBI. I mean, we talked about this
with Kwan. I think you know they're they're not terribly dissimilar.
I mean, Corner obviously will steal more. But and I
don't I don't know how fluky that is. He didn't

(15:20):
hit leadoff all year. In fact, after August he mostly
hit sixth and seventh, So I don't know if that
matters one way or Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:31):
I think I think for Horner too. I I heard
somewhere and I'm looking this up. Yeah, he he stole
one base in like April, and really you know, after that,
I mean it's not like he went nuts, but like
after that he was better. And that that's part of
it too, Like I and I don't know if it
was like just due to injury because he had two
sixty one. It was like he was like, you know,
doing nothing at the plate. You know, he just wasn't running.

(15:53):
I think a lot of the Cubs were running in
the first month. So that's kind of somebody to keep
in mind too. If you look at Horner, it wouldn't
be difficult to see him and like bouncing back up
at thirty five like forty steels next year. And for
people who just look at like full season numbers, I
think he could be a bit of a bargain, you know,
just in that regard. I think we were look at
his disappointment and go ah, you know, like he didn't
do as.

Speaker 4 (16:13):
Well, and it's like he's very similar.

Speaker 3 (16:15):
I mean, I think people were reaching a little bit
last year, and I think now he sort of makes sense.
And again I'm not projecting where I don't know where
his ADP is, so I'm not going to speculate.

Speaker 5 (16:26):
I'm sure it's lower, but he makes sense.

Speaker 3 (16:28):
It's like, you know, you've started to build your offense
and if you do, need to make up in average
and speed, like you know, Horner is a good play,
you know, in the in the sort of I guess
early mid rounds.

Speaker 4 (16:41):
Probably, Oh yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
So labor Torus is interesting.

Speaker 5 (16:48):
He's a free agent, right, he's going into free agency.

Speaker 4 (16:50):
I believe he's a free agent.

Speaker 3 (16:52):
Yes, So he really only had one good month, which
was September. But one thing I noticed, and I don't
really know if this is anything that's sticky, but in
the first half to the second half, his strikeout rate
dropped significantly, from like twenty two percent to seventeen percent.
So I don't know if he was changing his approach

(17:13):
or you know, just getting someone was telling him to
be more selective.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
But I sort of think he is also kind of you.

Speaker 3 (17:24):
Know, he's been in the league long enough where he's
not going to surprise us, but he could sort of
fall under the radar as someone who seems, you know,
seems like old news.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
You know, Yeah, I agree, and you know, obviously, like
some of it will depend on his landing spot, like
I think there's a handful of players that, you know,
you look at that like twenty nineteen when offense was
off the charts, and you're like, who benefited like most
from that in terms of perception and Touris is certainly
on a short list, and some it's unfortunate because he's

(17:59):
a solid and enough player in real life. I just
think people look at looked at that season and thought, wow,
like that this is going to be this like thirty
plus home ra a hitter, and he's just not that.
Last year was last year was definitely a down year though.
I think the thing that really fascinated me is that
not that he was a burner, but he just completely
like he stole like four bases and those all came

(18:19):
really early. I think those all came in like April
and May.

Speaker 3 (18:22):
So we should root for him to sign with an
Ales team because they have they're moving back the wall
in Baltimore, you know, and that was that was his
you know, he hit like a million home runs in Baltimore,
and it feels.

Speaker 4 (18:36):
Like, yeah, maybe the Oriels will sign him, who knows, maybe.

Speaker 3 (18:41):
Not. Yeah, I mean, they they definitely don't have anyone
playing in the middle infield, right, That's that's sarcasm. Okay,
So over on the shortstop side, anyone.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
Can we talk a little bit about Cja Abrams.

Speaker 1 (18:57):
Yeah, because I was, I mean I was fascinated by
that guy.

Speaker 4 (19:01):
So sure.

Speaker 3 (19:02):
So a couple of observations like started hot and then
just got extremely cold, like you hit a five eighty
six ops in the second half that he still ran
though I think his steal split was like fifteen and
sixteen firstapter second half. I you know, I still kind
of like Abrams because I think he's just one of

(19:25):
those players it's going to kind of have this uneven
growth curve.

Speaker 2 (19:30):
He's still young enough.

Speaker 4 (19:31):
To really twenty three twenty four.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
He's like really a look that you give your your spiel.

Speaker 4 (19:38):
Okay, it's twenty four.

Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah, so so.

Speaker 1 (19:42):
He just turned twenty four in October, so he'll be
twenty four like all next season. And you know what
it is with Abrams and really, weirdly enough, and I
think this is a mistake that I made and a
lot of people made. I think people looked at his
second half and thought, wow, like he's going to go off,
He's going to become a superstar, and it's like, well,
like he didn't. But when you look at the full year,

(20:04):
he actually did improve offensively, like overall last year, like
he was a better you know, incrementally at least he
was a better hitter than he was in twenty twenty three.
The steals are down, like that's what we focus on,
But he was a twenty thirty hitter at you know,
at the age of twenty three. You know, and I

(20:25):
think Abra is going to be one of those players
where you kind of draft him. Don't think, especially in
deeper leagues, like don't get obsessed or think too much
about the highs and lows and be like, you know
what I am buying into this player who you know,
I'm looking at the projections like he could be twenty
forty next year. That is well within line, and it's like, well, like,

(20:46):
what what are we you know, twenty forty like say
ninety runs seventy runs batted in like about a two
fifty average. That that's that's really good. He's somebody we
were comparing a little bit to Elie Daylor Cruz last
year and correctly saying, well, Cruise is being Dela Cruz
being drafted earlier.

Speaker 4 (21:02):
What about Abrams?

Speaker 1 (21:04):
I could see that comparison once again playing out this
year where Abrams is closer to de la Cruz than
we think they might be coming to the season. But
you don't have to pay that premium.

Speaker 5 (21:14):
Yeah, I think what I like about Abrams is that
the power it seems to be real. You know, it's improved,
you know, by slugging percentage, it's improved every year. And
so I almost you know, think, okay, well, if he's
you know, playing full time in you know, full season,
that twenty home runs feels.

Speaker 2 (21:35):
Feels like a close to a floor.

Speaker 3 (21:38):
And then yeah, and then you know there's this the
steals might fluctuate season to season, but yeah, I think
twenty forties well within reach.

Speaker 5 (21:50):
Yeah, it's a good player. I hope people are.

Speaker 3 (21:52):
Off of him because of his his bad hitting in
the second half.

Speaker 1 (21:56):
Yeah, what I think will probably happen is I think
in these summ early drafts he might go a little
bit later and then as people you know, kind of
kind of look at the price will just shoot right
back up and I'll be like, well that that really,
you know, it was kind of pointless to think he
was going to be a bargain.

Speaker 3 (22:13):
Well, this is the whole thing with the draft starting
in the falls, there's time for players to like the
value to be depressed and people like his values depressed
and you go up. And then maybe it was like
three different cycles of rising.

Speaker 1 (22:25):
And I will yeah, I will say though, like something
I have a feeling again like we're not looking at this,
but I have a feeling as to start to happen
as Sharper and Sharper people are doing these earlier drafts,
so that's probably gonna happen less and less. Also, drafts
in the past were focused on draft champions, which is
very different strategically in some ways, Like if you're doing

(22:48):
like one of those gladier drafts, it's it's less strategically different.
So it's like, well, it's just not going to change
much anyway, let's not do the thing we said we
wouldn't do. Is there anyone else at Shortstop in this yes?

Speaker 4 (23:02):
Year?

Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yes?

Speaker 5 (23:02):
No? Yes, no question. Is bobashek cooked?

Speaker 1 (23:07):
Well I don't think he's cooked. I do suspect that
the speed is just not going to be there for him.
And if it's not there for him, you know, we
were kind of taught. It's funny, we were kind of
talking about Marcus Semi and I feel like that's who
Bashett needs to be, Like.

Speaker 2 (23:24):
He needs to be years Like, well, yeah, I.

Speaker 4 (23:28):
Wasn't even that.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
It was more he needs to be this high volume
player to make it work. Like can the offense get
back to the twenty twenty one to twenty twenty three
levels without the steals?

Speaker 4 (23:38):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (23:38):
I think it could. I think last year there were
a lot of injuries. I'm willing to write it off. However,
you know, if he's a twenty you know, if he's
a twenty twenty five to ten player with a good
batting average, he really is going to need that volume.
Like he's really going to need to play one hundred
and fifty one hundred and sixty games, and he's just

(23:59):
this or to player I don't want to pay up
for hoping for the quantity. He's gonna prove it to me,
and I'm probably not going to have him.

Speaker 3 (24:08):
I feel like the best case scenario is like Dansby
Swanson kind of kind of type.

Speaker 1 (24:14):
That's a possibility. That's what the projection kind of looks
like for him too.

Speaker 5 (24:17):
Man, let's go to the three stars.

Speaker 3 (24:20):
Uh A lot of names here, shortstop, We've got Xander Bogart's,
Anthony Volpi, the aforementioned Dansby Swanson, Trevor Story, Willia Domas,
Ezekiel Tovar and Jackson Holiday over at second base, we've
got Andre Samenez, Bryce and Stott.

Speaker 5 (24:41):
Could Tell Marte, Zach yell Off, Tyro Estrada, Luisa Rise,
Matt McClain, and.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
Nolan Gorman.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
Yeah, you know, it's funny. I'm looking at these players
that I'm trying to see. I think Gorman is the
one that I had by far on on the most teams.
I hope you didn't get swept away in my Mania
and shortstop. I don't believe had any of these guys
on multiple teams. Just a kind of a like spread out.
So let's see since you kicked it off last time. Yeah,

(25:18):
let's uh, let's start with the Domas. Like he's a
guy I was right about but only had in one place,
which it's kind of really annoying when that happens. And
you know, there were two things with the Damas that
I was I was right about and then one thing
I was utterly surprised about. So the things I was
right about, I was like, well, this is a player

(25:39):
who I know can hit thirty home runs, you know,
and and he did it. He had thirty two home runs.
And the other thing I noted about him is like
his twenty twenty three was pretty much as bad as
I expected to get on the batting average side. And
I was like, hey, like, if William Damas hits to forty,
which I think is a reasonable like outcome of other

(26:00):
good things are going to happen, which they did. And
the thing that nobody could expect were the stolen bases,
like he stole twenty one.

Speaker 4 (26:08):
He stole twenty one bags.

Speaker 1 (26:09):
I would have guessed, like optimistically, like ten to twelve,
Like he has some speed. I just wouldn't have expected
that to parlay, you know into like what he did.
You know, what's really weird is is in a real
life standpoint, And this was I guess the other the
third thing about A Davis and why I liked him,
he kind of did what he didn't, you know, for
the Rays and for the combined Rays and Brewers in

(26:31):
twenty twenty and twenty twenty one. He just did it
for a full season in Milwaukee, which is a great
park to hit, as opposed to you know, Tampa, which
is not a good place to hit, and he was.
He openly said he hated hitting there.

Speaker 2 (26:44):
Yeah, I think a lot of people did.

Speaker 3 (26:46):
But that'sn't have a roof right now, so they're not
going to slay there.

Speaker 4 (26:51):
I wasn't going to bring that up, but.

Speaker 3 (26:53):
Yeah, yeah, And this is also a player who you know,
the landing spot will I mean, I don't, you know,
less than most players because I think he's just a
pretty I think the power's legit, you know, the speed,
it's really hard, you know, the projections are for like
fourteen you know, mid mid teen steals. I just don't

(27:16):
know what you you know, when you have an outlier
season like twenty one after having single digits your whole career,
it's really hard to know where.

Speaker 1 (27:22):
That's I would I would bet on the same I
would bet on the high single digits if I were
replaced in bets. So if I were like gonna, you know,
be placing a fantasy bet on him, I would kind
of take those steels down a little bit.

Speaker 2 (27:34):
Yeah, I think so too.

Speaker 3 (27:35):
And you know, and as I was saying that the
landing spot might make might make a bit of a difference,
you know, especially with the power numbers. So yeah, it's
definitely very very solid, and I know he'll be he'll
be drafted much higher this year, let's see. Yeah, so

(28:00):
this actually is an interesting follow from the you know,
the Jackson Churio discussion from last week. But keeping with
the Jackson theme, Jackson Holiday, uh kind of kind of
fell fell flat when he was playing in Baltimore.

Speaker 2 (28:17):
I you know, I don't like, he's not even twenty
one yet. He'll be twenty one in a couple of weeks.

Speaker 3 (28:23):
You know, I can't even buy him a beer yet.

Speaker 1 (28:28):
Really, it'll be really weird if you did buy him
a beer, even if you were was twenty one.

Speaker 5 (28:32):
Yeah, I don't think so what it you send him
a gift pack?

Speaker 3 (28:38):
But you know is is does last year sort of
make you kind of cool your enthusiasm for Holiday? I
mean it seems counterintuitive because it should be another year,
more time in the big leagues. He might not start
in the big leagues. But are we looking at a
breakout year? But on the other hand, like, you really can't.

(29:01):
You don't want to be paying for a breakout year
that has now.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
Yeah, it probably like in retrospect, we were all slightly
too enthusiastic about him.

Speaker 4 (29:09):
And you know, I was guilty of this. I took him.

Speaker 1 (29:12):
I think other people who did, like I took him
in labor just inside the top two hundred, and I
think that's where people were like reasonably taking him. There
were some people taking him like one sixty one seventy
that that was a little wit. Yeah, right, so there
were people, you know, tak him higher than that, And
I think this year the way to go is to
take him outside between two hundred and two fifty. To me,

(29:33):
there's nothing wrong with that. That kind of play of like, hey,
like he's a talented hitter. We think he can get
it together. If it works out for him, great, if not,
you know, and you took him at like pick two
twenty five, it's like okay, like I can I can
live with that. I can move on with my third
mill infielder and you know, just just do something else.

(29:54):
As far as like what he'll do, I don't know.
It feels like there's so many outcomes, like we've we've
kind of seen this, which so much bless you. It's
so much tougher like for young hitterers now like it
used to be like okay, like that I know this
guy is gonna like do it.

Speaker 4 (30:08):
He's too talented.

Speaker 1 (30:10):
The curve feels longer now for some of these players,
so it wouldn't surprise me if it isn't until like
twenty twenty six or twenty twenty seven that that holiday
breaks out. But I'm willing to pay that, like say,
fifteenth round price in a deep league to see if
I'm wrong.

Speaker 3 (30:25):
I guess, yeah, I just don't know what the what
the you know, the carrying tool is, like, you know,
over a full season, can you even project what fifteen
homers and you know, fifteen steals like I you know,
there's only so much an average and runs can get you.
I just you know, this is where he's different from
a player like like Jackson Turio right where you definitely

(30:48):
have much more ceiling for those those counting sets.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
Yeah, I mean, and then you're right about the steals too,
Like I think that's kind of the thing where it's like,
well like if you look at his numbers in the
low minors in twenty twenty three and you think, okay,
like extrapolate that, could he steal thirty bases like I guess,
But to do that, he's going to have to like
get on base more than he did last year, like
way more. So, You're right, it's sort I think, well

(31:15):
that there's a lot of wish.

Speaker 4 (31:16):
Casting here at work.

Speaker 1 (31:18):
And yeah, I think I'm like Churio or even like
White Langford who we talked about last week, there wasn't
so much there like that I want to stretch and say, yeah,
screw it, like I'm taking him in the tenth round,
and you know, I'm just betting on the talent, like
don't don't do that.

Speaker 3 (31:34):
Going over to the second base side, I was just
struck by how much Andre Semenez and bryceon Stott were
the Spider Man pointing at each other, like not just
their value, but the way they got their value, like
they were they were very very similar, you know, in
the around fifteen dollars, both good players, both very very serviceable.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
Any any one in this tier you want to talk about.

Speaker 1 (32:00):
Well, I did want to talk a little bit about
like Stott and again in particular. And it's just funny
because I think coming into the season that this is
just the well, there's two players want to talk about here.
Want is Stott and coming into the season, people like
looked at Stott and they said he's a one dimensional player,
he can only do so much, YadA, YadA, YadA. And

(32:22):
he did have a disappointing season overall, like relative to
you know, what he did in twenty twenty three, but
he was on the CUSP overall being a top one
hundred player because of those steals. And you know it's
just because good team, you know, good lineup people with
low average like he generally was, was productive. And I
think players like this are underrated. And speaking underrated, you know,

(32:45):
we're right back to where we were with Luisa Rise,
right like where every year this is going to happen.
And you know, I want to point out, like I
wrote this last year, but just to emphasize this, my
valuations are a little bit different than others. What I
do is I take like an average team and plug
in a player to that team and and you know,

(33:06):
it's kind of an SG just SGP formula and build
in the impact which does give average like a lot
more impact. But all that being said, like a Rise
even in his down year, was still like a fourth
or fifth front player like that. That's kind of how
good he is. I completely get that why you don't
want to pay that price, like I understand it. He's

(33:27):
a two category player, and if anything goes wrong and
he hits under three hundred, you're you're getting practically nothing,
you know what, you know what a rise is like?
A rise is like kind of drafting a closer, right,
like even a near elite non Emmanuel class a closer
where if something goes wrong, you're like, uh, I don't

(33:48):
really get much here, Like I got like mediocrity and
I didn't get the category I've wanted. But all that
being said, if you do get the category you want,
it's it's great to get that juice.

Speaker 4 (34:01):
From that category.

Speaker 1 (34:02):
And getting too is again the runs I think for
an average eh or we tend to like just schlep
that aside and go, oh, you know he's a one
category guy. He's really a two category guy.

Speaker 2 (34:11):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 5 (34:12):
Yeah, you could steal nine.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
Bags too, which was a career. But it's nothing, not nothing.

Speaker 3 (34:19):
It's yeah, it's interesting he's projected for for ten home
runs even though he he only hit that mark once. Yeah,
you know, this is sort of getting in our time
machine and going back to our manage event draft. It's
it really sort of did like we sort of started
our draft in the perfect way to draft Luise A rise, right,

(34:43):
I mean, and we didn't get him, we.

Speaker 4 (34:45):
Would have been back, I mean better with him than
Gorman for sure, you know.

Speaker 3 (34:48):
Yeah, but that wasn't the like when Arrives got because
did we pass I don't know what.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
I think we passed on him, and then we.

Speaker 4 (34:57):
Please please don't make me go back and.

Speaker 3 (34:59):
No, no, no, I've ready and we talked about the main
event thing so so much. But you know, my point
is that, like he is that sort of average off ramp.
You know, if you've really stacked the power, you know
where it can it can work out for you. But
it is the kind of thing where, yeah, it's like
I was saying with Horner, it's it's sort of the
player has.

Speaker 2 (35:19):
To yeah, I think has.

Speaker 1 (35:21):
Well steal steals an app like steals and average players
were like yeah, And Horner's a good example, and so
stop where so much of their value comes from a
category you don't want to pay what they actually earlier before,
like you know what being okay, I'm just going to
pay this price and hope they get there, because if
they don't get there, there's just lots of lots of

(35:42):
bad things that can happen, like there's no fallback position.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
Uh yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:48):
I just want to say about katel Marte. Didn't have
him anywhere for like the first time in many years.
And with all the Diamondbacks I watched, you know, rooting
for Corbyn Carroll to.

Speaker 2 (36:01):
To get out of his slump.

Speaker 5 (36:04):
I saw a lot of catel Marte doubles and home runs.

Speaker 2 (36:07):
And he's a good hitter.

Speaker 4 (36:10):
Yeah, he really is.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
It's always been a good hitter.

Speaker 1 (36:12):
Well, you know, he feels to me like this. So
there's two things with kettle Marte.

Speaker 4 (36:16):
Like one is another one.

Speaker 1 (36:19):
I think people were kind of obsessed with the injuries
and the profile. It's like I feel like, just bet
on the talent, don't worry about it. And that's sort
of the second thing too, which is there is a
lot of handwringing about what what are his stats going
to look like? It's like, you know what he's outside
of twenty twenty two. In the last four years, he's
been an elite or near elite hitter. Just draft the

(36:41):
hitter and kind of worry about the shape at the
contributions later, like if that makes any sense, like instead
of you know, being like, oh no, he's not going
to do this or he's not gonna do that, Like
don't don't sweat.

Speaker 4 (36:51):
That's that's small stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:54):
And as far as the injuries, I mean three consecutive
seasons with at least five hundred and fifty eight played appearances,
so yeah, you know that's yeah. I mean, yes, he's
getting older, but.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
He's really you know, outside of twenty twenty, Like he
had one season twenty twenty one where he missed a
big chunk of time due to andres and I think
that's part of it. I think twenty twenty, you know, messed.
You know, a lot of us up both in fantasy baseball.

Speaker 4 (37:18):
And fil many life, but I think we look at
that and.

Speaker 1 (37:21):
We don't see things like clearly when it comes to
you from a fantasy aspect.

Speaker 2 (37:26):
All right, should we go to the two star?

Speaker 4 (37:28):
Yeah, let's uh, let's do that.

Speaker 3 (37:30):
I'm gonna start with the second baseman because that's the
page I have for the tab I have opened. Edward Julienne,
Brandon Drury, Jonathan India, Ryan McMahon, Jorge Polanco, Luis Ranhifo,
Brandon Lao, Tommy Edmund, Gavin Lux and Witt Merrifield. Those
are your two star second basement on the shortstop side,

(37:53):
much smaller tier. Jeremy Pana, Carlos Correa, Jackson Merrill, Zach Neetto,
and JP Crawford. Should we start with shortstop? See some
interesting names here.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
Yeah, so let's start a short step. And just to
point out, by the way, these are preseason positions, which
is why Jackson Merrill is here. Uh, he was eligible
at shortstop only heading into the season. He obviously got
outfield eligibility and that's where he'll be eligible next year.

Speaker 2 (38:23):
Any shortstop, I don't I don't think.

Speaker 4 (38:27):
I don't think so.

Speaker 2 (38:28):
But yeah I don't think so either. Anyway, No, go ahead.

Speaker 1 (38:30):
I think I think they're I think they're committed to him,
like in the outfield at this point. And yeah, I
mean he only played outfield, he only played center.

Speaker 4 (38:38):
As a matter of fact.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yeah, Merrill is just one of those players who I
got a piece of him in labor via fab because
that was an early draft and like nobody took him,
like he wasn't even on anyone's radar. And remember with
the being the season, people were like, oh, like he'll
just be up for that that short series in Asia,
he'll he'll be back in the minors. And of course,

(38:59):
in respect, that was really a silly thing to think,
and I have to bed I kind of thought it.
Teams generally don't bring a player up like that, you know,
just just to start him in a game or two,
like he he was up for good, and yeah he was.
He was terrific, Like if you had the pleasure of
having him on any of your your teams like I
did on the one team. Just just just a great

(39:20):
season and kind of the converse of the whole, like, oh,
it's tough for rookies. It sure did not look tough
for Jackson Perrell.

Speaker 3 (39:27):
Yeah, I mean he's someone who you know, I tend
to be a skeptic about these breakouts, saying, oh, Leg's
going to catch up with him, but it just didn't
really happen. I mean, first half ops and forty five
second half ops nine. You know, just I I see
no flaws here, and I totally did not see this

(39:49):
coming at all. So no me either, you know, I don't.
I mean I generally try to fade. I don't try
to fade. I do aid sort of, you know, second
year breakout players, but I.

Speaker 5 (40:05):
Don't think that's the good call with Merrill.

Speaker 3 (40:09):
I think you know, he will be he will be expensive,
but yeah, he's going to be just fine.

Speaker 1 (40:14):
I would say it's less I'm going to fade him.
I think more he's going to be expensive and probably
too rich for the price I want to pay. But
I'm not going to shout away from him because you know,
he's a sophomore season and he'll be twenty two years
old for sure.

Speaker 4 (40:28):
Israel's a shortstop that you're this tier?

Speaker 5 (40:31):
Is this this tier is pretty pretty good?

Speaker 2 (40:33):
Yeah, small tier, but it's pretty good.

Speaker 3 (40:35):
I guess you know, we get to do a semi
victory lap on Carlos Gray. Yes, he missed a bit
of the season, but you know he was he was going.
So it was his adop two thirty four.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
So yeah, corre So Korea. This is one of those
weird things where if you had him like in an
ale only league, that's he's not. He's like a better
player mix leagues, right, because if you got that half
season or whatever he played, and you got that production,
you know, like fourteen home runs, you know, fifty plus

(41:08):
runs and runs batted in three ten average, and you
could just go to the free agent pool and be great.
I got that half a season and can pick up
a free agent wonderful, you know, in a deep league,
especially in Aleli, it's like, oh like now I've got
the tumble weeds and I got half a season of Korea.
So yeah, that to me is kind of the lesson there,
and it is that thing like by at that prat

(41:31):
bat he had his best season, But that's kind of
the rub, which is like, well, like I don't know,
he doesn't strike me as somebody who's going to age
well into his thirties.

Speaker 3 (41:41):
No, no, but I guess basically what you want from
Krea is someone who just when he gets injured, he
just goes on the il. Like I just don't think
you want him playing right through injuries because then you
get like twenty twenty three. But you know, if you're
and yes, your point's well taken about the mix versus
ill only you know he can be replaced for the

(42:04):
time he's out. But you know, nothing, nothing at all
looked looked amiss with you know, with his hitting and
the power was you know, the power was great. So
I think he's someone to have and just kind of
know that you're probably gonna you're gonna have him on
the IL for some period of season.

Speaker 4 (42:23):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
Yeah, and then you know the guy here again another
like the wow, I can't believe he earned this was
was Jeremy Pania.

Speaker 4 (42:31):
Just one of those players.

Speaker 1 (42:32):
I traded for him late in my home league because
I need It was a weird trade, but like I
needed steals, and I traded Alex Bragman, who I got
like a week or two earlier in a separate trade,
like straight up not even for a talent thing like well,
I need the steals more any of the power. And yeah,
it's just sort of he's a lesser version of what

(42:53):
I was kind of talking about before with Altuba, which
is nothing super exciting, but when you go fifteen twenty
with a decent batting average and a good asterers lineup
and you know, take the field every day, not great things,
but like good things will happen. He was like the
twelfth best short stop. Like I've heard a lot more
love for Ezekiel Tovar, and you know, Tovar, who was
the last year had a solid season I think against him,

(43:14):
but you know, Paanya was just about as good, and
you know a little bit cheaper.

Speaker 3 (43:20):
Yeah, I would. You know, also Zach Nedo surprising twenty
three home run thirty Steel season.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
Yes, yeah, that came out of nowhere. It seemed like,
but yeah it was. He's gonna he's gonna.

Speaker 3 (43:35):
Just sort of wilt in Anaheim for the time being, unfortunately.

Speaker 1 (43:40):
Yeah, he's a very like poor Man's Mike Trapp in
the sense that he's, you know, not that talented, but
you know, just gonna be this talented player or a
team where you're like, oh, this is kind of.

Speaker 3 (43:50):
Sad, kind of a big, not terribly exciting second base. Yeah, here,
so we don't have to spend too much time. I
guess I would start by saying, go ahead.

Speaker 1 (44:05):
Well, I was gonna say, like Jonathan India being the highest.

Speaker 4 (44:09):
Here like says, yeah, says a lot.

Speaker 1 (44:11):
Like there's so many names here and you've got one, two,
three before half of them were above replacement level. You know,
Gavin Lux was barely a replacement level. And yeah, it's
either India India is somehow is the highest earner. It's
kind of like, wait, what, Like it's really surprising he
allows driven by the runs.

Speaker 5 (44:32):
Yeah, he I don't think he's he's a very.

Speaker 2 (44:36):
Impressive hitter.

Speaker 3 (44:37):
And you know, I it's probably pointless to talk about rumors,
but the idea that the whole singer for India Trade
Room or I don't I'm sure you've seen this. That
just seems like, you know, two players whose value is
predicated on their current ballparks, and then you're swapping them
to basically career destroying.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
Situation, bad bad bad scenarios. And then you know, really
the guy who almost feels emblematic to me here is
like Ryan McMahon. This is sort of the boring outcome
you want in this tier. I would say, like he he,
you know, was ADP of two twenty six. His actual
overall earnings were like two twelve, like in a deep

(45:23):
mixed league. You're kind of like, eh, like that's fine, right,
that's okay, That's about what I paid for, Like ho hum,
given the rest of this tier, Like I think that was,
you know, not a great outcome obviously, but an acceptable one.

Speaker 2 (45:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (45:40):
No, he's fine, he's he's.

Speaker 1 (45:43):
I'm amazed at how consistent he's actually been. Like I'm
looking back at his you know.

Speaker 2 (45:46):
Glass of one.

Speaker 4 (45:49):
Yes, that's that's what he is.

Speaker 1 (45:50):
Like twenty homers, you know, eighty eighty runs, you know,
or seventy runs in a bad year, eighty runs in
a good year, you know, same things. That runs bad,
it in he drives in about seventy hits about two forty.
It's like, you know, plays almost every day. You kind
of just set him and forget him where You're like, yeah,
he's my third middle infielder. I'll get my steel somewhere else,
ya will.

Speaker 3 (46:11):
You will literally forget him. The thing about McMahon that
that I think hurts his value a little bit is
he is losing that second base eligibility. Oh yeah, that's
a good so not as attractive as a third or
more likely corner endfield player.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
But you know he's fine. He'll let you some home runs.

Speaker 4 (46:30):
Actually, oh yeah, you're right.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
He No, wait, he played twenty two at second last year,
so I think he's did he? Yeah, I'm looking at
the well where are you looking at?

Speaker 2 (46:41):
I'm looking at the fan grabs?

Speaker 4 (46:42):
But what I'm looking at too, huh?

Speaker 2 (46:46):
Okay, then forget what I just said.

Speaker 4 (46:50):
Yeah, I think he's I think he's second and third
if I.

Speaker 5 (46:53):
Okay, it says twenty twenty five.

Speaker 2 (46:55):
Yeah, maybe this is a projection.

Speaker 4 (46:56):
So you're looking at you at the projection.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
Yeahyeah, he played.

Speaker 1 (47:00):
Twenty this I know, this is really this is really well, actually,
you know what, this is really confusing because I think
you're right. I think he's not eligible. I'm look at
the wrong thing. You're right, and I'm wrong.

Speaker 4 (47:10):
He was.

Speaker 1 (47:11):
Let's edit this all out or pretend you didn't hear it.
But John was right. He is he is third base
eligible only.

Speaker 4 (47:18):
Yeah, yeah, okay, all right.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
I might have to do some editing work.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
Or we can just pretend you know that this was
this was a cautionary tale and recording close to eleven o'clock.

Speaker 4 (47:29):
At night on a weeknight in November.

Speaker 3 (47:33):
I don't have the excuse, but you know, by contrast,
the one star tire at second base was pretty good.
Good segment, yea, Brendan Donovan, Jeff McNeil, Jordan Westberg, Jake Cronenworth,
Bryce Terrang, Brendan Rodgers and am Ed Rozario. Anyone you
want to talk about here? Bryce Terrang and his amazing

(47:59):
steals total I don't.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
Know, yeah, I mean really he's kind of the guy
who stands out.

Speaker 4 (48:04):
I think Westburg is interesting.

Speaker 1 (48:06):
Because he he did that and wan like a little
bit over half a season before he got hurt.

Speaker 3 (48:11):
Yeah, but it was really two months I mean after that,
I mean he was he his uh, his April and
May were much better than his June and July until
he got injured. So I'm, you know, in a lot
of places, like I think he might be a little overvalued,
just because that that thing we talk about, right, that

(48:34):
April impression forms, and it's really hard to decide.

Speaker 4 (48:38):
I mean, you are you are right.

Speaker 1 (48:39):
He tailed off a little bit like every month. I
mean he wasn't you know, it was an awful like
the injury, But you're right, he was kind of above average.
And I think the only about Westburg too is that
solid player, Like, don't get me wrong, but and I
think the defenses movie and will help him too.

Speaker 4 (48:56):
But nothing, you're right. Nothing.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
I look at its numbers like, oh, he's gonna like,
you know, pop forty home runs, was gonna steal twenty bases.
It's like, no, he's he's kind of a solid, like
all around citizen. Yeah, Trag is somebody I was a
year early on. I liked him a lot more.

Speaker 4 (49:12):
Heading into.

Speaker 1 (49:14):
You know, heading into twenty twenty three than twenty twenty
four and you know, he just blew the doors off
and stolen bases. And it's again, this is a team
context thing, like the Brewers just ran and we're really
like aggressive with that, and Tarang most certainly benefited.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
Definitely fell off.

Speaker 3 (49:33):
I mean, I think he missed some time in the
second half, but he the steals, you know, hit thirty
in the first half, twenty the second half with the
miss time, so that was pretty even. But in terms
of the hitting, it tailed off from just in terms
of ops from seven thirty one to five sixty four.

(49:53):
So yeah, I'm a little worried about the you know,
the kind of you could it could be a sink,
it could be an average sink, and you're definitely not
getting any power from Durang, So yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
Could even I could even see him, you know, losing
like a little bit of playing time, particularly you know
against lefties like that. That that's something that and he
didn't play a lot against them to begin with, but yeah,
that that wouldn't surprise me a lot, particularly to your point,
like he tailed off enough in the second half.

Speaker 4 (50:25):
The thing.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
The thing that amazes me though, is he wt the
tailoff like twenty steals in twenty one attempts in the
second half of it with a two twenty average like it,
it feels to me like, unless like he just completely disappears,
you're you're going to be banking those steals.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:41):
The thing is, I think he's going to be kind
of a steals only play, and I think he's going
to be drafted with something a little bit more right.

Speaker 1 (50:49):
It's it's it's the Estuary Ruiz thing, Like, sorry for
those of you who drafted him last year, but if
you're paying that price, like if the ADP is like
one twenty one thirty, I think you're going to.

Speaker 4 (50:58):
Be really sad.

Speaker 1 (51:00):
You know, if you're paying like between one fifty to
two hundred, that to me is like Okay, I'll take
the risk, and if he flames out at that price, okay, fine,
Like I lost.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
You know, you know what else is really sad.

Speaker 4 (51:14):
Mike, I know where you're going to say that the one.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
The one star shortstopp tier.

Speaker 1 (51:20):
You know, you know the best thing about the wire shortstops,
there's only four of them.

Speaker 3 (51:24):
We've got von Christen, Tim Anderson, Ezekiel Duran, and Orlando Arcia. Mike,
how many of our one star shortstop tiers were replacement
value last year.

Speaker 1 (51:37):
They all were, I mean they were below replacement. I
should yeah, if that's what you're going for the best
the best one was Orlando Arcia, and he was you know,
lost five dollars and twenty cents in deep mix if
you kept him on your roster. All yeah, yeah, this
was a this was bad like this bad group, okay, but.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
You would not have been.

Speaker 5 (52:04):
It would not have kept any of these players on
your roster for for very long.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
Maybe maybe, like I see it, if you somehow you
were talking about to rise before, like you know, if
somehow like you you didn't need the average or you
had a strong average team and you just were hoping
for a modicum of power, like maybe, but yeah, for
the most part that this was just not a group
of players you would have held on to like everybody

(52:27):
else here. I feel like some of these plays I
was not in really on any of these players. I
don't think I had any of them anywhere. And like
Duran and Grissom in particular, I warned off against both
Ezekiel Geron. It just didn't make sense me. It's like
he's a part timer. He tailed off in the second half,
he was already kind of went from like super sub

(52:48):
to mostly bench player. It just never computed for me
and and Vaughan Grissom. I know someone was injury, but honestly,
I I think it Lanta traded him for a reason
and they kind of knew. They looked at were like, yeah,
he's he's not a short stop. He doesn't really have
the defense to play short stop. He's not enough of
a hitter to kind of justify playing him at second base.

(53:10):
Maybe he bounces back. I'm not writing him off. He's
still young ish, but just not really going to be
what people were expecting in like twenty twenty three when
he was kind of a hot commodity.

Speaker 3 (53:23):
So you would have dropped any of those players and
your potential reserve players that you might have picked up
or drafted in the endgame that you could swap out
at shortstop. So these are the positive earning players who
were drafted after pick three fifty. I believe we've got

(53:44):
Mason Wynn, Josh Smith, David Hamilton, Atto Lopez, Ernie Clement, Yes,
Miguel Rojas, and Paul deong Over at second base. We've
got Luis Garcia, Xavier Edwards, Jose Cabaliro, Dylan Moore, Joey Ortiz,

(54:05):
held Nick Gonzalez, and I'm gonna stop reading because.

Speaker 1 (54:09):
Yeah, I mean there's a there's a more than Michael
is probably Massi is probably the last person I think
anyone would care about like everyone else here, like like
the three names below that are like literally.

Speaker 2 (54:21):
Not even tell you what those names are.

Speaker 4 (54:23):
No, we're not.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
They're They're the kind of players that, if you they're
literally slightly above replacement, and in the case of two
of them, it's just because they showed up. Yeah, we
we talked a little bit about this last week. I
did the replacement. This is this is terrible, and this
is hard. You're literally doing the thing here. Yeah, but

(54:49):
this is one of those things where as much as replace,
Yeah so when Seal Perez is theoretically replacement, uh, but
in practice, you don't want these players on your roster
all year, Like you're you're going to be churning these spots.
You're going to be hoping that you get something out
of that. And like Ernie Clement's the flip side of that, right,
like he was he earned seven dollars and sixty two cents,

(55:10):
But so much of that came in the second half,
and you know, we we know we had him in
made event, I had him in you know, a couple
other leagues for a while. He was just that player
in the second half who was just really good. Like
I think you look at his overall numbers, like twelve hummers,
twelve steals, you know, not not much, not a ton
in terms of the counting stats, not a big like

(55:30):
positive average guy. But what it really is is like
just he just was out there in the second half,
like just playing and playing and playing.

Speaker 3 (55:39):
And it's yeah, and and when you're you can forget
in the offseason, like how valuable a player like that
is if you're.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
In a fifty team mix, like you know, you're you're cleaning.

Speaker 3 (55:49):
I mean, he might be a piece of you know,
treaded driftwood bobbing on the waves, but you are clinging
to that driftwood for your fucking life, you know.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
Yeah, I think I point somewhere like if you ideally
there's probably people in leagues who had like David Hamilton
for you know, a month, month and a half he
was hot and then shifted to Clement after Hamilton you know,
cooled off or got heard whoever it was who We're
pretty happy with that outcome.

Speaker 3 (56:16):
That would actually be an interesting exercise to kind of
build a part, you know, players that you just sort
of strung together throughout the year, and like see what.

Speaker 2 (56:24):
The value of that that player would be.

Speaker 1 (56:27):
I often think that's the winning formula, like in like
a main event. You obviously one can't do that with
your whole roster, but like when something goes wrong or sideways,
like if you take a Jackson holiday for example, it's like, okay,
well how do I fix this? And that that's how
you do it. It's not really with one player, Like
it's nice and what I'm sure we'll talk about him

(56:47):
when we get to the corners in a couple of weeks.
Like it's nice when you can do what we did
and get Carlos Santana. But if you have that flexibility
to like hit hit on two players, be like okay,
this players working for a while, now he's not working,
and then you find in the next by the next one.

Speaker 5 (57:02):
Yeah, And I think just with experience, you kind of
learn to.

Speaker 2 (57:06):
You know, maybe it won't be the.

Speaker 3 (57:08):
Exact right time when you cut eight on a player,
but you can be like, yeah, you know, I don't know,
like Heraldo Peroma or once he'll prizes who actually had
in a couple of weeks. For a few weeks, it's like, yeah,
I don't think he's really going to keep this up.
And he's hit a few home runs, he's still on
a few bases. But once you see a few days
of you know, oh for four, one for four, you know,

(57:30):
three strikeouts in the game, two strikes, and then you're like, yeah,
I think I think this uh, this ship is has sailed.
But yeah, any other players on the on the shortstop
side of the reserves, I mean, Mason went obviously, like
you know, one of those volume players that it doesn't
look amazing, like the stat line doesn't look amazing, but

(57:53):
it was week to week he was he was very solid.

Speaker 1 (57:56):
Yeah, No, I mean, I mean I think, you know,
Jesse Rocha at BP was like all in on Wind
and I was skeptical. So, you know, kudos to kudos
a Jesse on that one. Like Winn was a much
better player than I was expecting based off of is
very poor albeit limited twenty twenty three.

Speaker 3 (58:17):
I think maybe we have exhausted the middle infielders unless
you have any other observations you want to make.

Speaker 4 (58:23):
I think so too.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
I think I'd never want to hear you whisper names
of baseball players again. So yeah, we can. We can
probably close out.

Speaker 5 (58:33):
I think I've got a new bit now, Mike No.

Speaker 1 (59:01):
Thank you once again for listening to episode three eighteen
of Flags Fly Forever, a Baseball Prospectus fantasy baseball podcast.
If you are listening and you've made it this far,
I'm sure you love our podcast. I'm sure you read
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(59:22):
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(59:42):
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(01:00:04):
thank you very much. We'll be back in a couple
of weeks to talk about I think Quarner Infielders right.

Speaker 3 (01:00:10):
People walking in the free world, Wow my god.

Speaker 4 (01:00:17):
Yeah, and he doesn't