#307 - Kim Martin - Women in Lighting: Breaking Barriers and Building Careers - LEADING LADIES - Geezers of Gear

Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Hello and welcome to Leading Ladies with me, Sarah Burney.
This podcast has been brilliant.It's been with Kim Martin.
I cannot believe we've been on. We've been talking for two
hours. So that's that.
That's my longest podcast yet. I think you're really gonna like
this one. And if there's any ladies out
there that are listening to the podcast and would like to come

(00:24):
on and Share your story, then please, please, please get in
touch with me. It's producer at
geezersofgear.com. And I really would love to have
you on the show chat about how you got into the industry, your
thoughts and your views would beabsolutely incredible.

(00:45):
And very proud to say as well that Leading Ladies is sponsored
by Light Switch. Light Switch is a collective of
award-winning lighting, media and visual designers committed
to changing how people experience the world.
For more than 30 years we have been practicing pragmatic
design. At Light Switch, we believe it's

(01:05):
our responsibility to keep our clients creative, logistical and
financial objectives in balance.Light Switches range of
expertise is extensive. From working one-on-one with
science and artists to multidisciplinary teams
collaborate on all visual aspects of temporary and
permanent projects, Light Switchcreates unforgettable moments
and powerful experiences. We celebrate our team, clients,

(01:26):
and all of our industry's diverse and talented people.
As a part of our commitment to inclusion in all aspects of
entertainment and experience design, Light Switch is proud to
sponsor leading ladies. Now here's the leading ladies by

(01:56):
Geezers of Gear on tour. Maybe she got some stories to
share. Now here's the leading ladies by
the Geezers of Gear, Rockstar ladies with some stories to
share because La La La La la ladies.

(02:31):
Hello, Kim, Welcome to the leading ladies.
Hello, thank you for having me. Oh, it's a pleasure.
I know we've just had a little bit of a conversation, but the
last time I saw you and the first time I met you was at the
event LDI Dining with Dinosaurs.Correct.
And I don't think I was the onlyone there to talk to people I

(02:54):
hadn't seen in a long time. Now I know that the idea and I
think you guys are continuing towork on it.
It's a wonderful thing and continuing to work on like, how
do we really benefit the people who want to get the attention of
people have been doing it for a long time.
But what I saw in this first onewas a lot of people such as

(03:14):
myself who are alike. Oh my gosh, I haven't talked to
Patty in decades. I want to go say hello, right?
And that was lovely. Obviously we had the the, the
panel and say the panel, we had that.
We had the, the Dinos. But then more and more people
started coming in once they heard that, you know, this room

(03:35):
was basically full of legends and not just people.
Yeah, that were Dinos, official Dinos.
It was like everybody. And like you said, you know, you
hadn't seen certain people. And I mean, I actually the, the
best bit for me was at the end, you know, which is when I met
yourself. And I remember because Scott
DeVos, I love him so much, he was walking around.

(03:59):
I mean, he was so proud because he really like we, we, he really
helped put everything together. And he was so proud walking
round the tables and introducingdifferent people.
And then I remember him sort of coming past a couple.
Oh, was you, you were standing with Nancy, wasn't you?
You were standing with Nancy, I believe, and somebody else that
I I'm not familiar with. And you know, Scott said hello

(04:23):
and you, you, you stopped me in my tracks and he's like, I just
need to speak to Scott. And he was like, yes, like
everybody here you're introducing, but I actually want
to talk to you. And I was like, that is so cool.
Like, you know, like you want you wanted to speak to Scott and
have you worked? I take it you worked with Scott
before or? Well, it it was with OB, an

(04:46):
opportunity that I had when he was with OB.
Really. Yeah.
And when was the last time you saw him?
Oh my gosh, I can't even remember.
Certainly decades. Really.
Wow. Yeah, wow.
Yeah. That whole room was just full of
people that I've I've known of but had never met.

(05:10):
And the whole, for the first event that we'd ever held, which
you know, the diamond dinosaurs,I think it went very
successfully. We are actually in talks at the
moment to do it again this year.And we've had the Dinos on like
in meetings now saying, OK, we think this should be better this

(05:32):
way. That should be like more
organized this way. So I really feel that this year
is going to be really good. It's not going to be an
afternoon at the moment. It's there's talks for a
different time during the the LDI conference.
So I'm, I'm, I'm really excited about it because I think it's
going to be bigger. I think it's going to be better

(05:55):
and especially more, yeah, more organized, basically.
Well, sometimes you have an ideaand you just have to start right
and then and then see what sticks.
So, you know, the spaghetti has stuck to the wall and now you're
able to, you know, refine it from there.
Exactly. I would say especially for us, I
mean, it was Scott DeVos that actually came up with the idea

(06:17):
when he was on a podcast with Marcel.
And I call that he literally planted the seed and it just
started to grow and it grew intolast year's event.
And now it's growing and growingand growing and it's just, it's
just fabulous to be part of. And also knowing that, you know,
LDI did like it, they like the concepts and they could see

(06:39):
potential in it. That's, that's a huge thing.
I think that's a, you know, a huge thing to yeah, to be part
of. So for me, I was like when when
we started talking, let's I would like to say what I mean,
most people know you, but for those that don't, what are you
doing? What, what are you doing now?
And then we'll go back to your the history of you, which is

(07:01):
just blows my mind when I was reading everything.
Right now I am a account managerat Felix Lighting, right?
Yeah. So I'm an accounts manager,
which I feel is a misunderstood position, honestly.
Like a lot of people don't really know what is expected

(07:25):
and, and it could be because it may be changes between
companies, but I think really the job depends on who's doing
it right. Because I have a deep background
in production, I may be fulfilling this position
differently than others might, right?

(07:46):
And So what would you like, you know, describe your job now to
new, like new people coming intothe industry.
You know what is? Your my, yeah, I, I'm able to
because of my background servicepeople who are looking for gear
and production, right? So gear is fun here because, you

(08:09):
know, Felix is a bit of a niche and that they're focusing on the
newest equipment, right? There are plenty of big players
who work across all the disciplines.
So I think in a business environment you need to find
what your niche is. And because I'm a lighting geek,
this is a great place because they are constantly looking for

(08:30):
what the the new spec is going to be, right?
Like what you know, and we do a lot of business to business.
So there's a lot of larger companies coming in to pick up
those last 100 lights of some large event they need.
And that is fine. Also, I help people who they're
not, maybe they need something, but they're not quite sure what

(08:53):
they need. And, and I don't know if people
understand it's a tender time for clients.
Like, they don't want to feel stupid.
They're looking for answers, right?
And I think people with knowledge sometimes can get
impatient with people who don't know what they're talking about.
And yet that's the job. The job is to talk to people who
need some guidance, you know, who need to know what they need

(09:19):
to produce an event, right? And yet they're supposed to be
the person who knows everything and they don't.
So it's kind of like my opinion is my job is to make my clients
look good. Honestly, that's my supportive
job. Yeah, that's my job.
People are like your job. What is to tell me what I need

(09:42):
Even though some people think that their job in my position is
for you to tell me what you needwhen in fact a lot of times
people don't know what they needand.
With all the experience, which we'll go into the experience
that you have, you know, you really can give an open mind and
suggest and the way your personality is to suggest them

(10:02):
going into a certain way and at the same time listening to their
needs, which is, you know, it's a very diplomatic role as well,
isn't it? You know, it really is because
there's so many different kinds of client.
There are so many different kinds.
I mean, I, I'm not going to lie,especially when I'm busy, I love
the client that comes in with a full list.

(10:23):
I love that, you know, but like anything else, and I had talked
about this at the beginning, it's a balance.
People who come in and know exactly what they want, they
have their challenges as well. You know, this is an event.
Events are ever changing. And it's so funny because of the
thing that can get people frustrated the easiest is the

(10:46):
fact that it's constantly changing.
And yet that's one of the definitions of being in this
industry. Yeah.
And that's the thing. I mean, you've seen the industry
change over decades, you know, Imean, what's been the biggest
shift, like in concert lighting,what would you say has been the
biggest shift in your eyes that you've seen?
Well, moving lighting, of course.

(11:07):
I mean, when I started it was park cans and color changers,
right? I had some, you know, I had a
can of Freon at my hip because that's how we could unlock the,
the color changer addresses. And that was it, you know, that
was it for technology. I was going to ask you like what
what piece of like lighting techcouldn't you live without now

(11:30):
but say 10 years ago you would never have imagined having a
needing? That's an interesting
conversation because I believe sometimes the answer could be
low tech. And I'm certainly one of those
people who while more is more, you can also do a lot of design
with less. And I think a lot of folks might

(11:51):
be more professionally successful if they were able to
tailor their vision to the available time and budget, you
know? Yeah.
So things I can't do without I, I don't know that.
I mean, I've lit things with clip lights.
So what can I not do without I? I don't, I don't know, sorry.

(12:16):
I don't have an answer to that because you know it's true.
It's kind of a vague. It was just one thing that I
thought that maybe, yeah, there was something that, you know,
you may have, yeah, may have come across or something or felt
in your heart. But really what I want to know
is like, where did you start? So after all these decades to
where you are now, where did it all begin for you?

(12:38):
For me, it began in theatre. That's a common starting place,
right, Because it's an educationsphere.
And I was fortunate. I was someone who, I was the
first one in my family to go to college and my family genealogy
to get the opportunity. You know, there were people
before me who had that want. They wanted to do it.

(13:00):
It just didn't work out. And so my parents kind of broke
a chain. My parents both came from
abusive families and broke a chain with us.
You know, they were able, I'm very proud to say they supported
us. My father was very concerned
that I would be getting a college degree in theater.
He's all like, really come, I hope you can make a career in

(13:20):
underwater basket weaving. Like I just that's he called it
that. He was like, I'm concerned.
But it was theater because that's what education offered,
right? And I was participating in it
for fun. Really.
I did not see it as a career. And then I was assigned running

(13:42):
a lighting console, one of the first computer consoles, which
was huge, you know, and electronic.
I wish I could remember the nameof it, but I'm serious.
It was as big as like a washer and dryer put together so.
So I would like to go back to something like your, your like

(14:03):
the starting point really it wasa bit for me.
I'd like to know about education.
So you mentioned obviously that,you know, it's education that
brought you into the theatre world, you know, as training.
Did you get guidance, proper guidance that there is a career
out there like what you've achieved when you were at

(14:24):
school? Not really, you know, and I
think there have been more movement recently for that, but
really it was you could maybe join the union.
You know, some of the staff there were union stagehands and

(14:46):
that is a good career. That is a good trade.
So they focused on that and and theatre, they didn't know
anything outside of that. They really didn't.
And also my guidance was like the McCandless method, some from
this way, some from that way. And I was given some lighting
design for plays and musicals, and I just guessed.

(15:07):
I mean, First off, I just guessed.
It's probably you know, And if it didn't work I'd go downstairs
and swap them out for something else to see if I could get what
I was looking for. It's something that I really
would love to get into more and that's educating young people
who don't know about the industry, who don't know that

(15:27):
there is these opportunities to have such an incredible career
in lighting, in, you know, audioin whatever aspect of our in our
music industry. I mean, in public education,
what, a nurse, a doctor, a lawyer, right?
And only in the last decade or so, the idea that anyone can do

(15:51):
any of these jobs and they're not 100% gender related, just in
society in general, right? It's hard to find those niche.
And I there's a lot of, yeah, it's, it's a, there's a lot of
information. So how does anybody find
anything? I think a lot of people are

(16:14):
drawn to this industry because of the performative aspect,
because of, say, the music aspect, because they heard about
it or saw, you know, and I that's going to be true about
any profession. I, I do see there being a wider
range of ways that people can find out or option.
And my first sales job, I was left to figure out how to

(16:39):
actually get sales, like the first job I had in system sales
to learn about the money. But I'm jumping ahead in my
story. But I, I offered, I wrote a note
to all, all of the drama teachers in the four counties
around me saying in I, I'd be happy to speak 10 minutes to

(17:02):
your theater students in regardsto careers in our industry in
exchange for you walking me through your old, you know,
cafetorium or theater. And we can talk about whether or
not we can assist you in specifying a new system, you
know. And that was my offer.
And I wrote 60 letters. I think I got like 6 replies.

(17:25):
But those were interesting, right?
And I even remember in my Graduate School days, I went to
Los Angeles, mostly because I couldn't find touring work in
San Francisco and I didn't know any path other than education.
So when I had an opportunity to apply to get a master's at UCLA,
that was also part I was able tobe a teaching assistant.

(17:49):
So that meant I spoke to the undergraduates in the lighting,
the lighting classes. And I would say 90% of them
wanted to be actors and they were, they didn't want to be
there. They made them take technical
classes and they didn't want to be there.
So I remember even early on saying like you might think you

(18:11):
don't want to be here. However, there are so many
career opportunities in acting, directing, producing, and even
as an actor, you should know a little something about the
technical end. You're going to need everything
you can to stand out. Like, you know, people might be

(18:31):
looking for you because you're acertain type and you're thinking
you're just getting this on acting skills.
Well, I'll tell you. You know, if the ballerinas
dance across the stage in their audition with their feet in the
light instead of their body in the light, they're not going to
make it. And how do you even know that?
Right. So I say that today.
So today I say it is important to know different disciplines.

(18:53):
It's important to understand at least the basics in what people
are doing. So many people are attracted to
this industry. If we're going to talk about
lighting, they're very interested in the design.
Maybe they're CAD geniuses. Maybe they just want a program.
I'm not here to say those aren'tthings you might want to do.

(19:17):
It's just deeper than that. And you're going to serve
yourself better. If you don't think that's
someone else's job, you should figure out what they do because
that's going to help you and your job.
And I, and I still see that, Like, I still see very, you
know, the younger folk coming inand I'm like, I can have this
beautiful thing. It's on sky hooks.

(19:37):
It just hangs magically in the air somehow.
And it's beautiful. And I don't understand why
physics should apply to me. And that's actually one of the
more difficult things in a position I have is defending
physics. Like, I'd love to do that for
you, but you know. It's it's not going to happen.
Nobody wants to hear that. You have to, you have to talk

(19:59):
about things, about what you cando.
And that's another thing. I have a lot of people in those
positions who say unfortunately,which is a.
Bug word of mine, just don't say.
Unfortunately, you know, giving people news they don't want to
hear can be done in a better way, right?
So kind of all over the place. But I did a stint in Japan for

(20:19):
work and you just don't say no. We used to joke that yes means
yes and yes means no. And you don't say the word no.
You say what you can do, right? And it was hard because I love,
honestly, I grew up loving rules.
I loved the safety of rules and the safety of assuming elders

(20:40):
knew what they were talking about.
You know, I love that. But it doesn't.
It doesn't. Life's much more vague.
Life is very vague. And you know, when you come into
an industry, you know, our industry is something very
special. I mean, before we called it the
circus, you know, and it is. It's kind of like a circus.

(21:03):
Oh, it's still the circus. And, you know, you're travelling
around, you know, I haven't thought for quite some time.
I miss it, yes. But now, you know, I love being
here, you know, working for myself on the podcast and, you
know, working from home. It's a fantastic way.
But do I still get that itchy? B yes, I do, you know, do I

(21:24):
still want to get out there and,you know, just be part of that
incredible team, which is really, you know, what everybody
is when you are on the road. When what was your first tour
you ever did? So basically you you started in
theatre. So that's where.
So after theatre, what was your next jump?

(21:44):
What was your next move? And I just would like to say I
feel the same way. That's very common, right?
Like, I'm glad I've made the decisions I've made, but I, I
think it's something you miss once you do it, you know?
But like anything else, there's positives and minuses.
But my, I would say my next movewas, and I have a little thing

(22:05):
here to say to folks starting out, which is a lot of time,
your next opportunity comes withthe people alongside you.
A lot of times people think it'sgoing to be from a mentor and if
you are lucky to have one, an elder, a leader, and yet often
your next opportunity is from the person beside you.
So don't forget to work with thepeople alongside you in the

(22:26):
cruise because honestly, that was my next opportunity was
someone who I'd work with in summer stock was going off to
get her masters in at NYU. And she had been the lighting
designer operator at a little theater in San Francisco.
And so when she finished her undergraduate degree, she
reached out and said, I'm going to school.

(22:47):
Do you want to take over this little theater for me?
And I said yes. And so that was my first
professional opportunity was to make, you know, $300.00 a week
working Tuesday through Sunday at the Mason St.
Theater, where my first opportunity was to remount a
play of Greater Tuna. And it's so funny because that

(23:08):
in college, I'm serious. I didn't know anything about
being throw ratio. I just pulled up what was it out
of the basement and tried it. And if it didn't work, I just
swapped it out for something else.
Seriously, that's it. So when I first had my first
paying job, I got a bunch of rental likos from the local
rental company and I had a crew of two people.

(23:30):
We hung it all. I focused what I thought was a
good focus at my 5 foot, 4 height.
OK, yeah, yeah. So then we had a tech rehearsal
and all the actors, they were just walking in and out of light
and I was just in trouble. You are in trouble.
You are watching this rehearsal and they're just walking in and

(23:53):
out of shadow wherever they go and it is not going to be OK.
So that night I I stayed all night.
I stayed all night by myself. I do not recommend it.
And I struck the whole system and loaded it into my car and
took it to the rehearsal. I took it to the rental company
the next day and was like, can Itrade these all out for for

(24:13):
nails because the the ceiling was like 7 foot 5 tall.
Like I should not have easily goes just because I thought
that's what you use for a crack wash.
So I certainly learned by I learned about being throw ratio
for having to like rehang a system by myself in a day, like,
yeah. And it ended up working OK
ultimately, but that was just like, wake up and do the work.

(24:36):
But again, though, this, this for me goes into, OK, so there,
I'm not going to say it was a mistake.
It was a learning, a learning curve, let's say a very big
learning curve. But before the next day, you had
to make something happen that was going to work.
So you, you knew that you was going to put, it wasn't like a
normal 9:00 to 5:00. Well, you know, it's 5:00 now.
I've got to go home. You know, I'll see you tomorrow

(24:57):
and I'll deal with it then. You know, it's like I'm going to
get this done. Well, yeah, sure.
I mean, sure. You know, do the work.
That's another one of my things.People.
Please lean in, do the work. I can talk a lot about that, you

(25:18):
know. I think to.
Help. Good team.
You, you all have to, I believe,you know, you have to work
together, but also, you know, when, when push comes to shove,
like, and it really needs to be done, yeah, you're all going to
step in and get it done. Like you are all going to get it
done. Sometimes I don't like that

(25:39):
attitude because, I don't know, maybe you're overworked, you're
over this, you're over that, which happens in our industry as
well, like any other industry. But strong workers will
basically put that into it, intowhat they're doing, you know, if
it needs to be done. We're running at the edge of

(26:01):
failure a lot. I mean, it seems to me that if
you do something like you look at something and you're not
quite sure how you're going to do it, you're proud that you
achieve it. But many of my colleagues and I,
we choke. We're like, OK, now they're not.
They're going to see it wasn't impossible.
I'm like, but that's part of it.That's part of it.
But, and I know you talk about this a lot, but also exhaustion

(26:23):
is important and safety is important and and finding a
balance, it comes back to balance.
Maybe it's not achievable, maybethere is failure.
Yeah, I think now, I mean, I, I have been noticing a lot of
differences with different tours.

(26:44):
So I always look at the tour schedules and like I'm all I'm,
I'm always looking, I'm just intrigued.
And you know, maybe I've got friends out on a tour and I'll
be like, oh, OK, I'm going to look.
And IMC, especially this year, I'm seeing a lot more tours with
a lot more. I'm not going to say downtime,
but maybe it's a travel day, a back-to-back travel day

(27:06):
back-to-back. Whereas a couple of years ago a
lot of the tours were just like 4 to 6 rows straight.
A travel day, you know, where travel day into a day off and
I'd look at these and I'd be like, that's just burnout on a
plate. And, you know, I and, and I

(27:28):
would love to think that artistshave a say and people in the top
managements who decide the, the schedule.
I would really hope to think that they are actually listening
to everybody the likes of me on here, not me as such, but you
know what I mean? Like people that are voicing
their opinion about mental health exhaustion and what

(27:54):
really, you know, we can achieveto get the best out of people.
I mean, you've, you've been touring for years.
Have you seen a change from whatit was then to now?
Was it more intense years ago or?
I like that people are talking about it, you know, I like

(28:17):
people are talking about it because it's going to come from
the people. I can't I, I would be very or
the artist, you know, I know some people who work with some
of the classic artists and the classic rockers don't want to do
5 and 6 days in a row. They can't.
So I have seen a lot of touring that's 2-3, but that's based on

(28:37):
the artist need. I would say that it's going to
be driven if it gets better by people who just don't accept the
work. Where I've seen the improvement
is that they can't get the people they really want if they
can't, like they're sitting there boundaries.
But it's difficult and you're always going to find some
younger people who want it bad enough to do it.

(28:58):
I don't think that that I would love to think that as well.
But from what I have seen, it iseither going to be artist driven
or it's going to be driven by the people who only demand that.
And there's going to be always abunch of people who are willing
to jump through the flaming hoop.
They're going to do it. This is, this is the problem.
This is, you know, you've got somebody that you know, for

(29:20):
whatever reason is like, I don'tknow, say myself, I'm like, no,
I'm not doing that because I know that whole schedule, I'm
going to be burnt out. Like that's not good for my
health. So I say no, then you're there
and you're like, no, I really need the money.
I need this, I need that. I'll do it, I'll do it.
Then that's it. Then then the tour happens.

(29:41):
And like you said, there's so many people that want the job
that I don't. I'm not being cynical here, but
I don't think there'll ever be atime when people will say no to
doing it. I think they'll always find.
I think you're correct. I don't think so.

(30:02):
Yeah. You know, and so there you go.
You know, but. I do think that the more I think
it comes from the artists, you know, the artists, you know, I
don't know how much say artists have in it because I don't.
But I think when they see, I mean, even for them to perform,

(30:23):
you know, I know that if I use so much energy being quite
social one day, well, the next day I'm, I'm, I'm tired.
Maybe I could do 2 days, but after three days also my
performance is not as it should be, you know, So you imagine
you're giving your whole energy on that stage.

(30:44):
OK, maybe the travelling, the everything, you've got a little
bit of downtime. You're not like in back in at
like 7:00 in the morning to loadin, but still there's PR stuff
going on. There's, you know, they don't
just stop just because us when we're there at the venue, we
don't we, you know, that we think that they just come in
rocking in the afternoon. And, you know, there's more to

(31:06):
what artists actually do as well.
So the whole schedule for everybody, I think can be very
intense. I would love to see a change.
Yeah, I'd love to see a change. I mean, I live in, I live in
Crete. And OK, this is going by, it's
not just our industry, you know,with, you know, burnouts and all

(31:27):
the rest of it. The summer season here, it
starts in April, it ends in end of October.
And most people do not get a dayoff.
So there's no travel day, there's no downtime.
They just work solid and they'reworking extremely hard.
And that's not just the old one or the one or two places.
That's pretty much the whole, you know, that's just the way it
is here. My husband's I'm like, that's

(31:49):
crazy. Two days off for like 7 months,
you know, and he's like Sarah, this, this is our life.
This is what it is. Anyway, now they've kind of
it's, they've been set a law to say that no, everybody has to
have, I think it's two days off.And they've kind of said, OK, we

(32:09):
won't give you 2 days, we'll give you one day.
I mean, because they're just compromised with everything
here. But a lot of places are actually
going to shut down there tavernaor bar for one day.
And I'm like, guys, have you notseen how the rest of the world
works? You know, you have more staff to
cover. So then you're giving people the
days off. I know you can't do that on a
tour, but it's just planning as well.

(32:33):
And, you know, just to close your whole business up because
you know, you're meant to have aday off.
But at least they're kind of moving in a direction where you
know, they're they're saying to each other, well, actually we do
need a day off. You know, you know, the, the,
the higher ups are saying peopledo need a day off.
Yeah, anyway. It's going to have to come from

(32:55):
a lot of different ways. It's going to have to come from
the acknowledgement that a rested person is more productive
person. If we're talking about business,
that is what it is. It's business, you know, and,
and I definitely started off at the more creative artistic
portion, which I adore and stilldo.

(33:16):
But also I have found business fascinating because if you
understand business, you can getmore of what you want because
that's what this is based in. So I know plenty of creative
people who are like, I don't need to deal with that.
That's others. And I'm like, OK, I mean, I
understand, I can understand where that is coming from, but
that is you're not serving yourself.

(33:37):
Like that's not going to help you get to your goal if you
don't, you know, and some peopleare better at it than others.
There's some people, that's verytrue.
But then find your friends, findyour business friends then.
And that is one of the things I would say today that I see is
better that I had a hard time with in my career was the
business knowledge. I did not have enough business

(33:59):
knowledge to take some of the opportunity I was offered.
When I started getting more recognized in the industry.
Like there were some opportunities I lost, not
because they didn't want me, because I was a creative force
and that I was good and recommended by really good
people. It was because they called me
and said, am I talking to Kim Martin's secretary?
And I'd be on the phone going, am I supposed to have a
secretary? Like, you know, is this the

(34:21):
business of Martin Lighting Design?
And I was all like, you know, yeah, Like I didn't know.
And I think now with people being asked to be their own
businesses, LLCS, I mean, that is a certain hardship for some
folk, But I also believe that. And I heard Chris Lyle talk
about his what is it that touring career workshop,

(34:42):
Amazing, amazing. Take a look at that.
Talk about the finances. Like people when they come talk
to you and they want to be mentored, they're they're like,
well, how do I get to be a lighting designer or a
programmer? And those are wonderful goals.
Right. But but you're thinking in such
a narrow focus of what that definition is.

(35:03):
Yeah, I mean that those are the things that I like seeing.
And that's it. Again, like we said, it was
about it's about talking. It's about, I mean, I do a lot
of oh, I do all this all the social media for like geese of
gear. And you know, I always like to I
go on to factoring career workshop.
I've had a name changed now, so it's now Echo Live and, and so I

(35:26):
do a lot of things. I say a lot of things at least
once or once a week, once twice a week.
If they've got an event coming up, if they've got something, I
put it on our socials, they're on our website and stuff.
So more people can be aware. Because I wasn't aware, you
know, even a year ago, I didn't know that Chris was doing this.
And then we had him on the podcast and he started talking.

(35:47):
I was like, what? That's amazing.
And you know, now, you know, again, he's going from strength
to strength because he's got great people that believe in
him. Same as Laurie, you know, Laurie
Rubenstein behind the scenes, everything she does.
I met her for the first time at LDII love it.

(36:09):
I absolutely love it. Just giving the opportunity, you
know, if you're an LD learning the business side of things.
So you have got more of an awareness of everything is only
going to make you a better a better person.
Well, it does help you. It does help you.

(36:31):
And so you were, you were askingabout my path, I think touring.
And that's, you know, certainly a focus of these talks.
I saw a Don Henley concert and it was Park hands and color
changers. And they moved trust pods like
they didn't have moving lights, but they had like moving

(36:52):
structure. And I had found out that Steve
Cohen was the LD. And I went down to the front of
house and I was like, Mr. Cohen,can you can I want to do what
you do? Can you talk to me?
And he was very gracious. He was very gracious.
And the guys at front of house were laughing.
They're like, she's calling you Mr. Cohen.
Ha, ha, ha. They were like giving him a bad
time and, and he came and spoke to me and that was the first

(37:14):
time he said, I don't work for acompany, I work for myself.
And once again, being someone who had been very structured,
you go to school, you get the opportunity, maybe you become
the lighting assistant for a rock'n'roll designer.
Like, I didn't know that wasn't a position, right?
I didn't know that rock'n'roll lighting designers didn't have
design firms. You know, you don't know.

(37:38):
And so that's all. All I could really take from
that conversation was that he works for himself.
And I'm like, oh, great. Well, how am I going to do that?
How am I going to work for myself to get this job?
And I heard many interviews where people were kind of kind
of slided into this. But I really knew what I wanted
to do. And it took me years.

(38:00):
It took me years to figure out how I was going to get to do
something I wanted to do. So do you remember the like, the
like the moment you knew that lighting you know was going to
be your career like? I In college, I realized that
the technical theater was a career.

(38:21):
I realized that one could actually make a job because I
was in theater for fun. I was hanging out with my
friends, dancing and courses. I never took it seriously as
that career. So when I took it seriously as a
career was first the realizationthat you can make money doing
it. I was the college stage manager,
so I had keys and would let the the dance companies in on the

(38:42):
weekends. And I've made a little money.
So I realized there was a careerthere.
But that concert, the Don Henleyconcert, was when I was like, I
don't, yeah. Because I had already at that
moment figured out that theater lighting was not going to be a
living wage. I don't even know if it is now.
I don't even know if theater lighting design is a living wage

(39:04):
thing. I mean, people I know do it, but
they have to do multiple theater.
They often have more support outside of their income, you
know, and that is a thing too. You know, I did not make a
living wage until I was in. My gosh.
That's kind of why I got off tour because I couldn't sustain
a living wage just touring. I couldn't do it.

(39:26):
And so no. Oh.
Wow. No.
And even if you get paid, you know, at the time, I think, and
this was in the mid 90s, I was getting paid $1000 a week to
tour. But that's, you know, and then
if you only then that's great. And you might have $4000 in your
bank when you get out, but threemonths later that's gone.

(39:48):
So what are you doing, you know,So.
Yeah, but after college I did the little theater circuit,
decided that I wanted to do concerts and my first
opportunity there was a once again a friend working alongside
me, moved to the entertainment department at the Fairmont

(40:10):
Hotel, and the Fairmont Hotel atthe time had the Venetian Room
and the Venetian Room played Tuesday through Sunday, 8 shows
a week. With things like the Mamas and
the Papas and the, you know, that kind of genre at them.
And they had, and I got hired tobe the lighting person there.
And that was the first time I lit concerts.

(40:32):
Was that right? 36 Park hands, 2 scene preset
running on one side, sitting up on a with a little follow spot
between my legs. I'd be running the follow spot
like this. I'd be doing the 2 scene preset
over here and that was my first concert experience was doing

(40:52):
that. And how long was you?
You know, not that long because I had been trying to tour for so
long and, and during that time period, I realized that I wasn't
going to get that in San Francisco because there wasn't
anything starting there. There wasn't anything starting
there. Like even now I, I hear some
people maybe getting that job through working with their

(41:14):
friends who were in a band who made it big.
But that's like, you know, very niche.
And then basically was told, I was told by some of the union
guys there that you should come join the union, Kim, because
you're just not going to get touring here.
And then I was like, OK, so now I have to move.
So I'm not really familiar because we don't have the union

(41:35):
here, but so the union are they do they guide you or like?
No, no, they're, they're, they're a labor service, right?
They're a labor service. But you get, you know, you can
make a living wage there. You can get benefits, you can
get a pension, right. But what you're doing is you're
serving productions as their stage crew, which is great.

(41:59):
But that's just not what I wanted to do.
I was very focused. I wasn't going to get a touring
lighting job in the union. No.
So when, let's say when, when did you get, when did you get
your first break in into lighting and touring?
Like was it after this? So what?
What happened next for you? Well, because education was a

(42:21):
path, I knew it was a theater path.
I knew they probably didn't havea lot to say to me about concert
touring. But I had had a friend who was
just finishing up the master's program at UCLA and he said,
Kim, if you need to move to LA, just come down here.
It's only two years. You can get a master's.
You can be the teaching assistant and I can introduce
you to the, you know, you're going to have to get yourself

(42:43):
in, but I can certainly say, youknow, I could be a character
reference. I know you're a hard worker.
I can, I can bring you, you know, bring you to the attention
of the admissions board. So I went and I applied to a two
year master's in technical theater at UCLA and was accepted
and was accepted as a teaching assistant.
You know, you know, $900 a monthto teach the lab classes,

(43:06):
meaning the graduate lighting teacher would teach the once a
week in class lesson. And I would then take that team
and load in lighting for the plays and, and I got to design
some shows. But what that really taught me,

(43:28):
I think was how to lead others was how to get a bunch of actors
to load in a letting rig right, right there, people who didn't
want to be there and get them todecide why they should want to
be there. And please wear closed toed
shoes and please, you know, do this.
And so I think looking back, youknow, even more than the some

(43:48):
design experience I got there, I, I got the experience of
leading Cruise because that's a thing, you know, a lot of
people, even they can be a really good production
electrician, think they want to not production or just an
electrician and they think they can do it better.
And they're kind of floored whenit's their turn to be a leader.

(44:08):
I mean, that transition is not necessarily easy.
I've known many really good electricians who have a hard
time making the next step to being the lead, you know, So
that was helpful, but they had nothing to go.
Go ahead. Sorry.
No, no. No, no, you go.
No. I'm hate to.
Listen to you. Yeah, they, you know, they the

(44:29):
theater really didn't have a lotto say to me about that career
that I wanted because they didn't have that.
There was 1 scenic teacher. She was lovely and she knew Jim
Loanahan, who is the LD of Tom Petty.
They were in church together andshe talked to him and asked if
he would talk to me and basically through her he said

(44:52):
the only thing I would have to say to her is she needs to go
work in the shop. The only advice I have for her
there's nothing I can do to helpher.
I don't need an assistant. She needs to Co work at a
rock'n'roll shop and that. Was the advice.
Yes. And I had to know somebody to
get that. And I was luckily I met Carol
Dodds. Now she isn't, you know, she's

(45:14):
an icon in the industry and I was lucky to meet her through
her through a, a roommate, right?
And I told her what I wanted to do and she also said you need to
go work in the shop. So she introduced me to Bob
Hughes at Show Lights at the time, and I got an interview to
go work at the shop. So now I've got this, you know,
this master's degree and I've been doing theater and I've done

(45:37):
some little bit of rock'n'roll work with a park and rig and I'm
applying to work for $6.00 an hour in the shop.
And I'm being told do not tell anybody on the floor that you've
had any experience. You're going to go out there,
you're going to say you're my ex-girlfriend Carol Dodd
recommended you for a job and I have a floor sweeping job in the

(45:58):
shop. Like you really need to go out
there and just be like, OK, it'sa job and you just need to do as
you're told. And I, I picked it up quick.
Amazing. I love it.
It's amazing how quickly Kim picked that up.
Just like oh. My God, she's.
She's such a she gets it so quickly.

(46:18):
It's a natural, you know. That was the advice though,
going to the shop and pretend you don't know anything and, and
So what, what reason was was that?
I mean, I can, I can think of a lot of answers to my own
questions on that, but why do you think that was your advice
given? Oh, he said it immediately.
He said most, not all, but I would say 95% of everyone doing

(46:44):
this has been doing it for yearsas a trade.
And they got into it because they're musicians are because
they needed a warehouse job and they're very good at it.
And they're going to think you're a no, nothing know it
all. If you go in there and tell them
you know something because you've been at school, it is not
going to go well for you. So that was great advice.
The advice was like, if you go out there and pretend you know

(47:06):
anything, they will think you know nothing and it is in your
best interest. Right?
And, you know, if we're going totalk about gender, yeah, I was
the only woman on the shop floor.
So, you know, I think you need to go out there and just work.
Do the work. Once again, do the work, Learn
something, right? Don't.
And I actually think that's, that still applies now, you

(47:29):
know, going to something, you may have lots of experience.
I mean, even for me in various jobs, I, if I haven't worked for
the company, I would be, I'm more than happy to start at the
bottom and work my way back up again.
OK, Like in certain scenarios, because some people might, might
know me in a certain industry orwhatever.

(47:52):
But then when I jumped, like when I jumped into music, nobody
knew me. And that really was a a change
for me. I'm coming from, I mentioned
before coming from at Formula One, where, you know, really I
had, I had a great career there,you know, and everybody knew me
and every, you know, and I, thatwas my, my thing.

(48:13):
I left that didn't know what to do.
And then coming into the music, I knew I could do certain jobs,
but nobody had heard of me. Nope.
Like, you know, and I did get, excuse me, I did get some like
hard times from certain people when I was like, oh, well, you
know, I can do it. What do you mean you could do
that? You, you, you just you, you've

(48:33):
never worked in the industry. And I, and I've got that.
So that for me, if I, if someonehas told me basically shut your
mouth, do the work. You'll you know you'll, you'll
probably go a lot further faster.
Yeah. So I, I did that for a while and
once again, my next opportunity was from someone alongside it

(48:54):
was from actually an undergraduate student who had
graduated from UCLA, was workingat Strand and met Jeff Rabbits.
You know, she met Jeff Rabbits because he was, she was training
people on the newest Strand consoles and he was there to
look into the newest Strand consoles to possibly use it for
a project. And he really liked her and
said, look, and this is fascinating.

(49:16):
He goes, I need a lighting assistant.
And she was like, I'm going to stay here, but I know who you
need to talk to. So I was fortunate enough to
come home one day after a long, you know, freelance crew day and
to have Jeff Rabbits on my phonesaying, hey, you want to come be
my lighting assistant for sure. Because he had a theater
background and he knew what to do with an assistant.

(49:38):
And that is not so this like Unicorn position kind of
appeared like come talk to me about this and I did.
That's amazing. And how long was you with Jeff
for a. Couple of years I think, and I
learned so much from Jeff, right, because before that I

(49:58):
understood lighting washes. But he is was a concert
designer. So even with park hands, he was
the one who showed me about about beams.
He was the first one to talk to me about it's the air pattern in
the air that is integral to the rock'n'roll lighting look, you

(50:21):
know, focusing themes, talk about color, talk about timing,
talk about follow spots. That's what I learned there.
And I was a paperwork jockey there.
You know, I did paperwork and got sandwiches and stayed up all
night watching Mike Hall, a wonderful programmer from
Morpheus and Jeff Rabbit's design shows, you know, and I

(50:43):
was there all night to go get coffees and I learned a lot
watching. And I, you know, he would go out
for the first two weeks on a tour and take me with him and
then turn it over to his lighting directors.
And that's the position I wanted.
I wanted to be one of his lighting directors.
So, you know, I'm all like, Oh my God, I am so close to running
a concert now. You know, it's been, you know,

(51:07):
five years and I'm close, right?So, but and that wasn't my path
either because his shows were solarge.
He it's not that he wasn't necessarily open to it, but it
was kind of, you know, I don't see you walking right into a
stadium show, Kim Right. And and it was disappointing,

(51:28):
but fair, right? And he also said something which
is going to sound harsh, but he said it is very, very dangerous
to recommend people because you will always be associated with
whoever you recommend and it is dangerous.
I agree. I, I actually, I, I, I've
learned the hard way. I don't recommend unless I'm

(51:48):
really, I don't know if I unlessI can really see something
extremely special and I I don't recommend anybody anymore.
It is dangerous. And he told me that is very,
very dangerous. And his needs changed when he
became Moody rabbits for the kind of assistant he needed.

(52:08):
And I was doing freelance and, and part of my story is the
diversity because I spent so long like I really wanted to be
a concert lighting designer and I achieved that goal, but it
took me years. And through that time, I was
able to pay my rent by filling in all sorts of jobs in Los

(52:29):
Angeles because there's a lot ofwork there.
So I was able to work in television.
I was an on call lighting director for live news at KTLA,
live talk shows. That was a job, you know, And so
I got to saw that side. Do you think it took you longer
being a woman, a lady in the industry?

(52:50):
Or yeah, 100%, yeah, 100% like I'm yes.
And and The thing is, is at the time, and I know that it can be
discouraging, but I would like to say that some of the I got
patted on the head and told thattouring was not a place and was

(53:12):
not great for women. Like don't do it.
Like, I know you want to do it and you're really good, but you
should run the shop or you should, you know, stage manage
something like they, they like when I was starving full time
offer a full time jobs were offered to me.
And I was like, I don't want to do that.
I thank you, but I really want to do this.

(53:32):
And looking, I was disappointed at the time, but looking at it,
these were people who were training me and they were
honestly concerned about the, shall we say, the environment of
touring. Because honestly, in the late
80s, early 90's, the environmentof touring, you know, they were

(53:53):
not wrong. I hate to say it.
They weren't wrong necessarily that that wasn't necessarily an
environment for women. You know, it's a little better
now, but but that wasn't an environment they did.
They were concerned that it could become abusive and they
didn't necessarily say that, butI think that was part of it.
It wasn't like we don't want girls, although that was said to

(54:14):
my face. I got put in a crew once and the
crew chief came in and said who's my crew?
And I was on it. I was excited.
This was going to be, I was going to be on the crew, but it
was going to be my first travelling show and I got
whipped right off that list. He was like, no girls and took
me off. And that's harsh.
Yeah, that's harsh though. Oh, my goodness.
I I couldn't imagine. Well, yeah, you couldn't imagine

(54:35):
that happening now things have changed.
I mean, we're still a minority. This is the best time.
I mean, it doesn't mean that there can't be improvement, but
this is the best time, you know?And there's plenty of us who
have gone through this, you know, there's all sorts of
names. I'm sure you're talking to
people. And as there are more, there

(54:55):
will be more. Well, I mean Carol, she was
meant to actually come and be a Dino.
So Carol Dodds, I haven't met her or spoken to, but she was
meant to come on and and be but just being to just the way.
And then, of course, I was reading up on reading up on
everything. And, you know, these Patty
Thurston, you know, yeah, that just these are the legends that,

(55:18):
you know, really the the the handful, the sassy strongness of
this. And you, I mean, really Kim,
like you knew what you wanted todo.
You was going to get there. You was knocked back, got back
up again, knocked back, got backup again.
And that is just, I mean, that'ssomething to be proud of.

(55:39):
And to now be able to tell everybody your story, like,
yeah, I think it's. Actually kind of nice yes again,
for whomever might be interested.
It was it's nice to be able to tell the story because today,
you know, I'm not going to be reading people my resume.
I'm going to be all like, how can I help you?
And, and I, I have also been even now questioned by some

(56:04):
people in the industry about my knowledge.
I get that. I still get it.
I still get it. I still get people like, well,
they don't know, right? They don't know.
So you have to just, you know, there's a little bit of what is
your goal? Sometimes people might ask,
well, how, how do you get through that?
Like how does that not stop you or make you negative?
Because I'm not, I love this industry and I love the people.

(56:26):
And how do you keep that from making yourself, you know,
disgruntled or cynical, you know, how do you fight that?
And it doesn't serve my goal. And that's what I want to say.
I have goals even now, you know,I'm a little bit driven.
So if it doesn't go to my goal, I just come back around, you

(56:49):
know, and and that also speaks in to our gender in this
industry. Like I've had some really good
advice for men working in the industry talking about, you
know, how to address difficult situation.
And I've had to tell them more than once.
Like that's great, you can talk to other men like that, but I
cannot, I cannot, I do not get the same result.

(57:09):
And that this is not in just this business, this isn't every
business. Guys are able and proud to be
strong with each other, but bossy, bitchy.
I'm like, you don't hear guys getting called that and it's
real quick and easy. So it's like, how do you appeal?
You know, what is your goal? That's what gets me through what

(57:31):
is my goal? Like if I need to take the
blame, if I need to say sure andcome back around later, you
know, I can't tell you how many times I've gone, oh, yeah, sure.
And then come back around later and ask the same question again.
And people are like, I thought we had this answer.
And I'm like, no, I'm just checking.

(57:51):
Yeah. Hi.
What do you think? You know, one taking the blame
if I say this all the time, you know, own up to well, two ways
for doing that, yes, OK, I'll take the blame.
And I've done that before when Iknow it's clearly not me, which
maybe I should or I shouldn't. But then later on, say the

(58:11):
person whose fault it is, you know, I've kind of gone up and
they've gone. Yeah.
You know, it wasn't, it wasn't Sarah or, you know, whatever.
Like he's been. I love, I love, I love your head
movement of Yep, you know, like I know.
And I think it's. Hard.
These are hard things and you have to relearn them.
You might think you have it and then all of a sudden you have

(58:33):
to. You know, self-awareness is key.
You know, I, I've done a lot of work on self-awareness, just
knowing who I am. And when people ask for advice,
that's what I want to say. It's very personal.
Like the best advice I have evergotten is tailored to my
personality. And these things might not be
the same for others. Like early on in my career, I

(58:55):
was asked by my boss to give a crew chief some information and
he was in the middle of solving something that could have been
show stopping. And I didn't know that.
But I just took, I just did whatI was told and gave him this
information and he blew up in myface, blew up in my face.
Who was I? Why was I giving him this

(59:16):
information? I obviously didn't know or
should be involved in this because I couldn't tell that
he's trying to save the show. And just in front of everybody,
just just like just top of his lungs, huge man.
And I instantly teared up. And that's horrifying because
when women do that, I'm not crying because you're I'm not

(59:36):
crying. I want to put AI want to put a
pencil in your neck. OK, But but honestly, the
reaction is, oh, now we've got acrying woman and we're done.
Nobody's going to talk to you now.
You couldn't take it. And I talked to a friend of mine
and one of my best advice there was she was like, you need to
toughen up. He wasn't mean to you.
He was being an asshole. And if you don't know the

(59:57):
difference, you're not going to make it.
So you need to disassociate yourself from that.
And you have to be brave. You have to be all like you
know. And so many people have said
that you cannot control what they do.
You can only control what you how you react.
And if you need to take a minute, you can.

(01:00:19):
OK, I'm going to take a minute walk around the block now and
calm down. But that's usually.
The best response, it's like, wow.
And now I have had some of that even and I just stopped talking
and my answer is like, I don't say sorry anymore.
When I first started doing this,it was all like, could you
please and thank you? And I'm sorry.

(01:00:42):
And I thought that was being polite.
And I was shown again and again how annoying that was to cruise
to leaders. They don't want to hear your
sorries. So I say sorry for nothing.
I will say I can hear how that'sconcerning and be honest about
it. I can hear why that's upsetting,
you know, to you like I can hearthat right, But that doesn't

(01:01:04):
mean that right? Maybe it's new information,
maybe a decision was made based on new information and back once
again, also to communicating. There's so many different ways
to communicate now. I cannot tell you how many
people I would ask to pick up the phone and have a
conversation. People are blame, OK?
They can be blame avoidance. They can be communication

(01:01:25):
avoidance, right? And that doesn't serve them.
So that's the other. So that's, I think how I get
through is just like, well, whatis my goal?
Like what am I trying to achievehere?
And that can help me. Also when people maybe have a
reaction, you're wondering wherethat comes from.

(01:01:45):
Roger Pullis at the Felix officesaid something wonderful and he
said people are just trying to keep their job.
So if you get a comment from someone and you're like, where
does that come from? Put in they're trying to keep
their job. Look at that optic.
It's the optic that they're trying to show someone.
Well, I did this right. I couldn't help it, you know?

(01:02:08):
So you know, little little bits of things over time that that
add into how you can take a beat.
It's taking a beat. It's taking it's making your
character, like you say, toughenup, get stronger.
And I've seen it by being the other end of the person that oh,

(01:02:29):
sorry. Oh yes, I'll oh, please, yeah,
thank you. Oh yeah, this that I have been
that person and again, learned the hard way.
And also it ends up being that it's not sincere when when you
when you are that person as well.
Oh, no, that's so very true. Right.
Because what you really want to say is, you know, that's.

(01:02:50):
Yeah, it's. True.
So, you know, there's like, you know, you can say in different
ways you can for me, sometimes the best thing you need to to do
is not say anything. That's so much fun because you
know, I I get to work at home a lot, which is lovely and
sometimes I'll get fired up about something and honestly,

(01:03:11):
when I get fired up about things, it's because I care.
I get a little stressed out. You know, this industry is so
last minute. There's some things that need to
get hit to be done, and it gets left to the last minute so
often. And I'll I tell my husband like,
Oh my gosh, like this happened and I want to say this.
And he's lovely. He's such a good sideman for me

(01:03:32):
because he'll go or you can justsay nothing.
Like I'm going to say this. It's so clever.
It's so funny. It's getting my point across.
And he's like, yeah, no, I mean,you can tell me, honey, or you
can write the e-mail. Just don't put the two.
Don't fill in the two portion, right.
That makes you feel better. Just let it out.
You go ahead. I've also had to learn.

(01:03:53):
Yeah, I've also had to learn that recounting it can just
stress you out again. Doesn't always, you know.
And, and sometimes as well, lessis more.
I know that's that's another bigone for me.
You know, you can go into a big explanation.
You can say exactly why this andwhy actually you just go to the
point A to B. This is what this that's it.

(01:04:16):
And it's edit almost. Every one of my emails, yeah,
yeah, I looked at that. I'm like, OK, now say it in
three sentences because that's all people read on their emails
anyway, by the way. So if you if you have more than
10 sentences on your e-mail, don't assume people friend that.
I mean, people like at the beginning, you know, I'd be

(01:04:37):
introducing myself and, you know, saying that I'm like, like
helping Marcel out, Excuse me. And I'll be and then you go
Sarah and goes, nobody's going to read that.
So now it's like, hey, you want to come on the show next week?
Like it's so blunt. And so and we get more people
that way from like my big high. And I mean, there's a place for

(01:05:00):
it, but in business, certainly just like, no.
You know, I mean, yes, I like giving as much information
because I think, well, actually,you know, the more information
that's there, you know, I'm literally covering everything.
However, at the same time, I also think even sometimes it's
best to filter filter information you know little

(01:05:21):
stages of of of what's needed, or whatever it might be.
That's a very good advice as well, Like, like answer the
questions that are being asked to view and, and, and you know,
maybe maybe ask one additional question or something even
though you have a list. Yeah, that's very good too.
Just like people. It's also really good when in
crewing, to be honest. That's another thing that I do

(01:05:43):
as well. You know, in, in the job
descriptions, people are like, do you have production
electricians? Do you have programmers?
Do you have crew people? And so, you know, at Felix, you
kind of, I mean, you run your own business through the
company. So I am responsible for the
inventory system, the pricing, the crewing, the sub rentals,
the just the whole process. And in crewing, you kind of

(01:06:06):
can't let them know everything upfront.
In a way you kind of kind of lead them in, right?
Like like you give the basic idea, Hi, it's this position,
it's this place is these hours. And then you just wait and just
you know, because not every job is the one they want to do, you
know, and you have to learn about having a team who are
like, you got to take some for the team.

(01:06:26):
And then I honestly do try to get people, you know, people who
have done those things for me. They're going to be first on my
list for the sweet gigs because there are a lot of them, but
there's also a lot of like show up at midnight and loaded out
jobs too. And I think that goes to, for
me, it goes to loyalty on a lot of things.
I mean, when I when I joined, I was always very loyal to a

(01:06:49):
company or a person. I'm very loyal.
Yeah. And for me it's, you know, like
if you treat me like, well, nice, like respected back, I
will do anything for you. If there's that rubbish job that
really, you know, nobody's goingto do it.
And you say, Sarah, you know, it's shitty, but can you, if I

(01:07:12):
respect that person because I like them and I know that
they're a good person, I'll do it.
I'll do it. And I'll say, Yep, I'm going to
do it for you, you know, But I know not that I'm doing it for
something else in return, but I know in return we're kind of
bonding a bit better for future things to happen, you know?
No. And I, and I, I think anything

(01:07:34):
else that's wonderful. And also sometimes it's balanced
with understanding that crews aren't always available to me.
So that's another thing about being an LLC is people are their
own business. And if they don't take a job
from you, I don't get mad at them.
Some people do it the other way.Like I've, I've heard that, you
know, it's nice to be loyal, butit goes both ways.

(01:07:57):
So that's another thing. I think that sometimes, you
know, I'm offering an opportunity.
I want you to like that. But also I respect the fact that
you also have to run your own business.
But with that said, I've also had people who come to me a lot
and go, Kim, I'd really like to work with you.
And then they take jobs and theycancel.

(01:08:17):
If you've cancelled the job on me three times in a row without
offering a replacement, I'm not reticent whether or not that was
a better job or not to hire you again, you're going to have to
take some for the team, so. Look, we all know that maybe a
better opportunity comes up. But again, if I say yes to
something, really, I'm committedto you.

(01:08:37):
You know, I'm committed to you and I will do it and I will save
for for myself, damn it. Like a friend of mine, I spoke
to her today. She, you know, she was off.
She was offered a job recently and she was like, oh, I've just
said yes to something else. And she's like, I so wish I
hadn't, she said. But I have, I've said yes.

(01:08:59):
And that's it. Now I'm, I'm not going back on
it. And I I.
Think that keeps you on people'slist?
That keep you on my list. Yeah, Yeah, You know, and, and
that for me is, I mean, she's got a wonderful character, you
know, but generally she's like, Oh my God, I want to do this
other tour. Like really?
She wants to do the other tour. She's committed.
Yeah. And, you know, that she's

(01:09:21):
freelance, You know, she's also had issues in the past where,
you know, she was part of one company and then she went to
another and they were like, oh, but your your own, your work.
You will only work for us. She was like, I'm freelance.
Like, you know, you haven't got a job.
I'm going to go to somebody else.
Yeah. And sadly as well, some

(01:09:41):
companies do wipe you off their list if you go elsewhere, you
know, But there's. Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a
strange world out there, but we still haven't got to the park.
So basically off like after being Jeff Rabbits's assistant,
you know, you saw it. The vision was there.
So tell me, when did you? When was your first meeting

(01:10:02):
made? It well, and that's the where OB
comes in, right. So at the time, Jeff rabbits was
very loyal to Morpheus and therewere the light and sound designs
and the OB's who would have loved Jeff to bring a tour their
way, right. And so I think that was why
Michael Keeling at OB was like, Hey, Kim, you know, maybe you
could come learn how to run our telescans also as large as a

(01:10:23):
washing machine, you know, on a on a console where, you know,
there was no effects engine. You would have to like tape 16
pieces of tape on a floor, do focuses and then run a run a
chase, right. But he was like, comment on your
time. You can, you know, learn how to
run our our lights. And he was clear with me.
He said, I want you to do this because if you get good at it,

(01:10:46):
maybe, maybe you can get on thistour you want and Jeff can use
us. He said that I that was great.
I was like, sure, like motivating me to spend my own
time, you know, trying to learn about these lights.
So one night I was doing that. I was running my cues to my
songs and I turned around and there was the executive suite of

(01:11:06):
OB behind me. And I'm all like, hi, gentlemen,
830 at night, what can I do for you, right.
And they were like, Kim, can yourun it again but do it like
this? And I said sure.
And I ran it again. And I did it like that.
And I said thank you and left. And then the next day they were
like, we would like to put you up to be the lighting director
for Tracy Chapman tour. Because The funny thing enough,

(01:11:28):
the reason I finally got my first opportunity was because an
artist wanted a female. So people are like, oh, I don't
get it. Because I was a female.
I'm like, I finally got it because I was a female, because
somebody specifically said, I want you to find me a female
writing director. And they were like, well, who's
that? You're like, who can do that,

(01:11:49):
right? And they took a chance on me.
They were like, we're going to write up a little resume for
you. Don't, don't you worry.
We're just going to write up a little something and we'll get
you on that tour. And they did.
And and that was the most difficult thing I've ever debt
for was the most difficult thingI've done in my life.
But I learned a lot. I learned a lot.

(01:12:10):
And it was different reason it oh gosh, for so many reasons,
you know, and it was a learning experience for me.
And you don't know what you don't know and people don't tell
you things. So it was, you know, politically
difficult. The gear didn't fit in every

(01:12:31):
venue, you know, So I had to kind of make up some things on
the fly. The expectation was I would run
the opener and her, you know, and she did have long runs.
And just the politic of it was, it was an interracial tour,
which was wonderful, but there was also a little bit of

(01:12:54):
difficulty there, you know, and that's the, that's the best way
I'm going to say it. I, you know, are there details?
Sure. But I just, it was difficult
and, and the role I played and I, that's the best way I can say
it. It was just difficult.
And it made me a little sad because I did an East Coast tour

(01:13:19):
leg. I did a European Tour leg, which
was amazing. Because she was invited.
Tracy Chapman was invited to so many non venue places that were
amazing. Little Italian opera houses, the
the parking lot of cathedrals. I mean places that were unusual
and I've never seen since. And so many people do also.

(01:13:43):
That is the time I learned when you don't tell people, you just
let them love the artist. You don't tell them the
challenges it is to work maybe with that artist.
There were challenges there as well.
So there we were working in a production that had artist
challenges, crew challenges. The relationship I had with a
designer didn't end up being as good as it could have been.

(01:14:07):
And I learned a lot because of that.
I will just leave it like that. So, but with coming back with
that experience, I could now sayI've been on tour and that is
the thing. Getting your first one is the
hardest thing. And once you survive one then
then people want you because youhave experience.
There's always, I think there's always touring jobs, if you can

(01:14:28):
say you know how to do that because touring isn't just the
job, it's the lifestyle and it'sthe getting along with everybody
on a 40 foot bus and maybe having an argument during the
day and being able to have a beverage together at the end.
And if you, you have to have that personality.
And once again, people are talking about it now.

(01:14:52):
It's almost like you're living aparallel life and how do you get
back into your what real life when the tour is over?
People are only talking about that now and it's a thing.
It's hard and how you sideline what you might have thought your
personal life trajectory is by touring, right?
I mean, some people have been able to make their whole life in

(01:15:14):
touring, but you have two separate lives and it is
something to try to manage that.I've always, you know, I love
talking about, I love being open, you know, to Yeah, I know
I love being open. And one thing I've always spoken
about is, you know, that that whole site, the balance inside
of your normal life to your worklife.

(01:15:35):
And at first it was, it would, Iwould struggle so much leaving a
tour where I'd been on the bus, the hotels and the whole crew
around me to then going back home where I lived on my own.
I I struggled with that because.It was everyone struggles.
It was quiet and it wasn't untilI started talking to the people

(01:15:59):
I've been on the tour with and Isaid, I've got to say I'm
struggling. And then they were like, it's
normal, don't worry. So the, the best thing I ever
advice, advice wise, you know, people were talking to me and
saying I, yeah, I, I, I do, I dothe same.
I, I get back and I struggle. Or oh the the lovely lady from

(01:16:24):
Echo Live and her name's just gone, totally gone.
She has a no pants day. So basically every every like
day that she's working all week that she's away, when she comes
back, she says to everybody, OK,I've been away for six weeks.
I need 6 days of no pants, not doing anything just to recharge

(01:16:44):
my body. And I love that.
So she's kind of taken somethingthat's intense with work, but
knows when I come back every week I was away.
I just need a day where I don't have to worry.
You can come round, but we're going to have a no pants day.
And I think that I I, I, I love that way of things.

(01:17:07):
So after Tracy Chapman, where did then you just kept on from
tour to tour to tour? Well, difficulties along you.
Know there is a lovely programmer LD named Erica Hayes,
and she's been on many pot, manya podcast.
And as she says, closed mouths do not get fed.

(01:17:28):
And a lot of people get frightened by this.
But you have to cold call if youdon't know someone.
And that's the best way, knowingsomeone's the best way.
But then you know, So in that instance, Paul Starr was my
friend and I would look up bands.
So first of all, I knew my place.
I knew that I wasn't going to gorun even, you know, I was I

(01:17:52):
needed to find someone maybe whothis was their first LD, right.
And and for that, that would be a band who had a couple of hits
on an album and we're ready to release their sophomore.
And maybe it wasn't their software.
Maybe obviously sometimes it takes 10 years to be an
overnight success, but I would be looking for that band that
was about ready to go on tour, had announced they were on tour.

(01:18:14):
It was months away and they would announce it and that would
be the position because that thethe tour.
So it would be the tour on the album after they got a hit.
That would be that was the nicheof and I'd look up management
companies and same kind of thing.
When I talked about writing drama teachers.
You're going to have a large percentage of people you cannot

(01:18:36):
get in touch with of people who don't reply and respond to you.
And then I got someone to say, oh, and one, someone was very
interested in me, but the same thing.
We haven't had a lady on tour. You know, we're concerned
because everybody's going to be on one bus, you know?
What is that like? And I'm like, I don't know, wear
underwear. I don't know what to tell you.

(01:18:56):
It's not a problem for me. Yeah.
I mean, but it didn't work out. Also, you know, partners get
upset. I know someone who didn't get a
tour because they were told thatthe girlfriends of the band
wouldn't be OK with a woman on the bus.
Is it right? I don't know.
Is it real? You know, and it's hard.

(01:19:17):
It's hard, right? And I have seen many tour
liaison. Those things happen.
It's not untoward. So you know, I I don't there's
no answer there. But you keep moving until
someone says as they did. How did you know we were
looking? And I met with the Ban Jellyfish
and I toured with them for off and on for a year and it was

(01:19:38):
wonderful. And that was my best experience.
And honestly, we were all in onebus.
I would not in general say touring with the band is fun
because it's, you know, after that one experience, which was
great, I had other experiences where everybody was on one bus.
It's not great because you then you're now not only are you

(01:19:58):
living with people you're working with, you're living with
your de facto bosses. And that's not great.
Because they don't they don't observe health rules honestly.
Like when you have a bus with crew people on it, you can keep
the temperature correct. You can keep people's crap out
of the public spaces, right? We all know it could possibly
happen to you if you fall asleepin the public areas.

(01:20:19):
So you know, you can. And I've seen it like, who
hasn't? Like love drawing a Sharpie
mustache on somebody. It happens.
Don't do it. So, you know, takes a while for
that to wear off. But I would say, yeah, crew
having their own buses, you know, a large enough tour where
they had crew on their own buses.

(01:20:40):
Always really nice is during theJellyfish tour, Jeff came and
saw my show and then offered me lighting director work.
So full circle, right? The how so that you know, and
it's I'm going to say this, it'sa shame.
I mean, I understand obviously where Jeff had come from, you
know, at the beginning, but it'sjust a shame that he didn't give

(01:21:02):
you that opportunity. He wasn't the first one to give
you that opportunity. You know, I think to be fair, I
think if Jeff had the kind of tour size where he felt he I
could be successful, he hadn't said that.
Like maybe we find a little Blues club tour or something
where it's a lot more forgiving as you find your way and that's
not unfair. Yes, it would have been nice,

(01:21:24):
but ultimately I did the work. I showed him my expertise or my
skills and he said yes and he signed me up.
And it wasn't long, you know, literally didn't take you long.
Yeah, I did take long. Like, was it another couple of
years after? I know so.
But you know, it wasn't like it was, you know, years down the

(01:21:44):
line and like you, you go from job to job to job.
But you had a solid, you know, good resume now at this point
and you know, he and he saw it. So you had the talent.
And I also kept in touch. I could have been, you know, I
could have been cynical and not kept in touch because I didn't
get what I wanted. You know, that's another
opportunity where you keep in touch, you don't burn bridges.

(01:22:06):
It's not worth it, you know? You, you know, and and yeah, you
know. And so life on tour, I mean,
what would you say is one thing that people don't realize about
life on tour? So like, what when what before
you, you knew you wanted to go on tour, but what was the one
thing you actually didn't reallyrealized?

(01:22:29):
Yeah, happened when you was on tour.
Well, we talked a little bit about the idea of having two
lives. I mean, that's something you
don't realize. You know, I'll speak a little
bit about being a woman on tour and in the 90s, which is, and
I've had people say this has happened to them and they were

(01:22:51):
unhappy about it. But I was joyous to be able to
walk in first and have someone say, Kim, it's a pleasure to
meet you. You're with the tour, right?
Hi. I'm Alicia.
Would you like to see the dressing rooms?
Maybe we can show you where the towels are.
You know, assuming that I was the production assistant or some

(01:23:13):
role there and I loved, I wasn'toffended people.
I've heard people say, well, whydo they just assume I was that
position? And the truth is, it's because
that's what it usually is. And I would love to say just
enjoy. I relished the fact that I would
say, hey, as a matter of fact, can you show me where the towels
are? Because there's usually no

(01:23:33):
towels and I'm done. So let's get him a couple of
fresh towels now. And I really would like to talk
to your rigor. And they'd be all or your
production electrician and they'd be all like, what?
But I liked that like, like surprise them.
Get them into the idea that that's what they're going to see
more, right? Because they don't know, you
know, And, and when they're inviting you in, they're

(01:23:54):
inviting you into their home. Wipe your feet.
OK, Be polite, right? Yeah, 100%.
I mean, a very good friend of mine, Colleen Witzenberg, she's,
I mean, she's, she's just, she'sincredible for me.
But her attitude to things, you know, she just walks.
She owns, you know, she, she, she owns the where she is, you

(01:24:17):
know, she knows exactly. And this isn't just touring
life. This is personal life.
You know, she's always known like you.
This is my goal. How am I going to get there?
And that is the most that for me, what you've given me is the
that's the best advice. Know your goal, know where you
want to be and you you can get there.

(01:24:39):
It just. Well, and figure out the price
you have to pay. There's always a price to pay.
And if you don't want to pay theprice, well then maybe reassess
your goal. And that sounds harsh, but I
think that's even more importanttoday without technology based,
this industry is more and more technology based.
If you just, you know, can hang a few park cans and and live

(01:24:59):
with no sleep, you know, but nowwake up and smell the parameters
people. It is.
It is very technologically advanced.
Not everyone is going to be ableto have the cognitive base to do
it. That's sad but true.
You could work for a long time and wonder why you can't get
further, and it would be becauseyou can't remember how to work
with a managed network system. Yeah.

(01:25:23):
You know, so do the best you can.
You know, you can train yourself.
You know, some people are fortunate enough to just take to
it. It can be achieved through study
and application. But there are also might be a
time when you have to reassess your goal.
And that's realistic also, how many jobs are there, right?
How many jobs are there? There's people we're talking to

(01:25:45):
that have been doing this and they're not going to give up
those jobs. They're not going to give up
those roles. There's many times I was told
that the only time you're gonna get on a cruise is if somebody
cancels at the last minute. Yeah.
Right. It's kind of like a parking
space in San Francisco. You don't get a parking space
unless you actually see a car leaving because there's only so
many spaces, right? No, it's true, you know, So

(01:26:06):
there's that. But yeah, touring early as well.
I thought it was real interesting because I would go
in with the plot. I would meet the local crew.
I would say, hi, everybody. I'm Kim.
Here's our plot. This is what we're hanging
today. And before 1 box would come off
the truck, whoever the leads were would be.

(01:26:26):
Ah, OK Kim, how much powers in this pool are you bounced along
your phases? How much does this weigh?
What would you do in this case? And I answered the questions
thinking, well, of course they're going to want me to know
it's their house. They want to make sure that that
we're prepared as a production. But what was interesting to me

(01:26:47):
was there was one day I was so I'll and my production
electrician, it was me and John Keating, who is now with for a
while. He's done amazing work over the
time. He was 25, I think I was 31 and
it was just us and we were in a production in which the
production manager was the last person to get off the bus.
He had not made been making friends in the advance.
And so that was another difficulty of that particular

(01:27:09):
tour. And I was very ill.
And he said, Kev, you know, we're week 4 into 6.
Why don't you go to catering, goget some tea.
Mornings are the hardest when you're I'll I will get going.
I will get us started, right? And I remember him going in
first because I was all like, you know, normally I'd be doing

(01:27:29):
it. And I was so sick.
So he went in first and he shookhands with the guy in charge.
And he said, OK, start directingboxes.
I mean, they didn't even look athis plot.
And I remember going, well, aren't you going to look at the
plot? Aren't you going to ask him the
questions? And no, they didn't.
They were just like, what do youwant?

(01:27:50):
So that's not necessarily a negative.
It's just it was that you're asking what is the difference?
Well, that was the difference. That was the difference.
Everybody did it, but they had to have answers for me first.
They had to make sure that therewas someone who knew what they
were doing there. I'm not having a comment about
that. I'm just saying how it was
different. So that so that's how it was

(01:28:13):
different. So there you go.
And I just living in Los Angeles, working between tours
and having other opportunities. I will say that has was also
informed my career. Like I said, I had done some
television, so that was interesting.
I also did some permanent installation work for a ARC

(01:28:36):
attainment job in Japan and I was offered that opportunity
because I had the master's degree.
Like in so many ways it didn't matter.
But in this case, the designer taught graduate lighting at
Irvine and so he was interested that I had a hat of his
applicants the the career paper.So you never know, but it gave

(01:29:00):
me kind of an opening into what the other disciplines are.
And I think that has helped me over time to just have a wide
knowledge base. Now you actually, you actually
wrote that, you know, most people kind of know you as LD
Kim, but then it's like some people will say to you, you know
you're LD Kim, but now you're ACand like.

(01:29:22):
I'd love to say that wasn't likepoke and a bruise, but that's
like poke and a bruise. So it's kind of like you said,
like I'm not touring, but I loveit and I miss things about it.
So for me, you know, first of all, can in my case, well, just
what I want to say is, yeah, that's like a poke and a bruise
for me because yes, I miss it, but it's just a that piece of

(01:29:46):
it. It's just a small piece of the
overall job. The pieces we miss are not even
50% of the job. The other 50% of is it being a
freelance position. The other piece of it is the
exhaustion. The other piece of it is it
sounds like you have control over all of it, but you don't
like, I don't know any. A lighting designer who has been
in the business for very long who hasn't, hasn't in their mind

(01:30:09):
gone. Please don't tell anybody I did
this because I don't want my name on this because I didn't
have ultimate control about how it looked or how it went down.
I'm doing my job. You know those things.
You know, you see the shining glory part, you don't see the
other part, right? And also, yeah, so, so there's

(01:30:31):
that about it. And also it also goes to the
fact that the suit position is misunderstood.
But then how did you go? When did you did you then think
to yourself, OK, touring now? Was it coming to an end?
Did you kind of like how did youthen get into like the roles you
are now? Like how did that float from
touring? So when did you stop touring?

(01:30:51):
Well, it was interesting becauseinitially I was, you know, the
Natalie Chapman tour finished atthe end of September, and by
December I didn't have any otherwork.
And because I had moved back to San Francisco when I was in Los
Angeles, there was always, I could always find work between

(01:31:12):
tours. I could always find work.
There was so much work. And then I came home after the
Lemonheads tour and my roommate was gone and there was an
eviction notice on my door because there, you know, I've
been sending money, but things hadn't been paid, things things
hadn't been done. So I came home exhausted to an
eviction notice on the door and I was like, I just, I don't want

(01:31:33):
to deal with this. I think that now that I'm
touring, I'm just going to go home.
So I had always kept a very close round of friends up in
here in the Bay Area. So I just moved home.
I thought, why don't I just movehome?
So I did and then I got some touring work, which was fine.
But then when I didn't have it, I didn't have a local work and
there is was not the plethora ofwork in San Francisco.

(01:31:57):
So I was like, I got to find a job, like I need to go find a
job. And I met Phil and he was
representing Strand at the time.And I met Jim Shell straight who
sold systems integrated systems at company called Holes Wheeler
here in San Francisco. And and they said, Kim, we will

(01:32:18):
offer you a system installation job, but you have to promise us
a year because we know what you do.
You can't. We're not going to give you a
job in January to pay your rent in February if you're just going
to take a tour in April. So if you decide you really hate
it, fine, but we're asking you for a year.

(01:32:38):
Which is fair. It's fair.
And I did get that phone call back.
I would like to say I did get that phone call back in April to
resume doing Ringo Starr with with Jeff.
And I said no. And I started learning about the
money because when you're in thecreative side, you don't
necessarily know the production managers do it, the tour

(01:32:59):
managers do it. You know, as much as I talked
about how you should know every angle, you know, there's a whole
nother layer of the negotiation on the money side.
So what I really meant creatively is understand maybe
the tech understand maybe what it would take to float what
you're asking in a ceiling. Like I understand you're going
to stamp on your lighting designthat rigging is done by others,

(01:33:19):
but just a basically not assume that you're not getting what you
want because people don't want to do it.
Maybe it just can't be done. And maybe you need to learn a
little bit more about what what can be done right and ask those
questions and not be a frightened to not know
everything. I think some people are also not
are frightened or thinking theirposition might get taken away
because they don't know everything.

(01:33:40):
You know, could they, maybe theycould, I don't know.
But but once again in that like maybe they just were trying to
keep their job. But after about a year, though,
to be honest, Sarah, I started borrowing lighting and started
doing bands at night. So now I've got this full time
sales job, but now I'm doing lighting for local bands for
nothing at night. And after about a year of that,

(01:34:02):
I was like, oh, this sucks. You're just going to have to
face the fact that you want to go back into production because
that's what you want to do. So I tried to move into the
production department of that organization.
It didn't really work. And then I was offered
Holzmueller Productions is a BayArea event based company and

(01:34:23):
they were looking for someone tocome design in house.
And that is not a job you find often.
So even then, and that was in 2000.
So even then it was a job where I got to be the lighting
designer. I was also the account manager,
I was also the production electrician.
I was also the person who was running the cruise on site.
So kind of the whole thing and now what was even awesome about

(01:34:47):
it is when I was first offered that job from Peter Donovan, we
supported the lighting designs and installations for the
Hartman projects only with a lotof new equipment.
So, so that allowed me to ramp up by the time they purchased
Impact lighting, which is a local social lighting darling

(01:35:09):
and and then Hartman pushing forward after the 2001 drop in
business, they started going outthere with their executives and
they got large corporate work, large corporate work like large
retail managers, meetings in different cities, large banking

(01:35:30):
jobs. And I was positioned to be the
lighting designer for those. So that's how I got to do it.
I didn't have to apply for it. I was already working for the
company that needed those services, so I was able to grow
my knowledge in doing large scale corporate work with their
inventory while doing budgets. And that's where I started
noticing, you know, there's thatadage where it is either you get

(01:35:57):
it done quickly, you get it donein quality or you get it done
with price. Pick 2.
Now, while I understand that, I also think that if you negotiate
correctly, you can get all three.
You just have to understand, youknow, helping people define the
kind of job they're trying to do.
I think this analogy might be fun for some people when I was

(01:36:21):
talking to some more social companies about how to help
their clients decide what kind of vision they can afford, right
without being insulting, right? Because people come to you with
grand ideas. They don't have the budget for
that. You don't want to be insulting.
They don't know what it takes toput together something like
that. So, so how do you train your

(01:36:42):
client? You know, and I and I would like
to mention light switch and they're just, they're
sustainable design model becauseI think they're the leaders in
the industry of trying to do that training, trying to tell
the people of the industry that the the focus you have is only a
small piece and you're trying toreach clients.
How to get better outcomes with us.

(01:37:02):
Help us help you, please. Right.
And how to get that message out,right.
But then how do you talk to people about scale?
And I thought this company did agreat job.
They were like, let's talk aboutthe catering.
Is this a Kobe beef catering job?
Is this AT bone steak? And pardon me for relating to
me, but T-bone steak job. Or are we going to have a little

(01:37:23):
circus with hot dogs and popcorn, right?
Yeah. So, so without offending
anybody, is this a Kobe beef job?
Is this AT bone steak job or is this a hot dog and popcorn job?
Everybody loves the circus. Like I'm not trying to, but
let's not spend a whole lot of time looking at the Kobe beef
artistry and vision when you gotthe hot dog and popcorn budget,

(01:37:48):
you know, even if you don't knowwhat that is, right?
So, so people need that. How to get how do I get there
without embarrassing myself? I mean, that's a big thing.
How do I get to those decisions?But that's a great way we even
just, yeah, straight away I'm like, Oh yeah.
Because straight away I'm like, Oh yeah, I don't want the Coke
beef, you know, I want the steakand that's it, you know?
Yeah, like you've gone to that restaurant.

(01:38:09):
I'm going to have the side. I'd like the side of the screen
finished today. I'm not going for the king cut
of the prime rib today. It's not in my budget, right?
So where is home for you now? The San Francisco Bay Area, I
lived in the city for a long time, but you know, it's very
true in San Francisco. If you're a renter, at some

(01:38:30):
point you're going to get pricedout.
And after 23 years after I movedup from Lai got priced out.
My, my personal situation was myfather had passed and I need, I
wanted to move my mother in withus.
So I was able then to, you know,leverage, you know, leverage
some far away 4O1K money into a down payment on a three bedroom

(01:38:52):
in the suburbs. So lucky me, you know, lucky me.
So I've, you know, been able to manage that into something where
I have a, you know, barring property taxes, I have a stable
like, you know, price to meet. Now I think, are you fully
remote now or you know, do you? Like go in to the office.

(01:39:14):
Felix Lighting has a warehouse in Brisbane which is just South
of San Francisco. Between San Francisco and it's
airport. Then I go in weekly, right?
We have a weekly meeting, as many production, you know,
rental production companies do. And I go in weekly.
And then I go in when my clientsare prepping.
So I go in, I mean, they have anoffice space for me and I go in

(01:39:37):
there weekly. I also believe that we've been
talking about it. These are hard jobs and you need
to have a camaraderie. You need to know your, your OPS
department needs to know you respect them.
You know, your, your teams need to know and, and FaceTime.
I'm, you know, I'm social, I am social.

(01:39:58):
So it's so funny because as muchas I'm social, I can also get
real isolationist and shy if I don't know what I'm speaking
about. Like if I don't like, we know
exactly what we're speaking about here.
So that's easy enough for me. So, so it encourages me to get
out. It encourages me to be social,
right? But I tease them.

(01:40:19):
I said I'm coming in it weekly to distract you all from your
work and let you know what I think about what you're doing,
you know? It's because they.
'D love to think it was a joke. But he's not I have like my my
weekly meeting with Marcel. And then sometimes he can be
like, have you have you been on your own for a while?
And I was like all day, obviously the time difference

(01:40:39):
like, and I'm like all day. And he's like, my goodness, you
haven't spoken to anybody like no today, because I same thing.
You miss the socialness of of Yeah, you miss being social.
Am I very happy that it's remote?
Yes, 100%. Do I wish maybe I don't know.

(01:41:03):
There was a few more. I because I live on the island,
like, yeah, really that there isno, there wasn't even any just
thinking of like music venues, but but nothing, you know, even
for me to like just go in and get that buzz that there there's
nothing here like. Yeah.

(01:41:24):
You know, there's got to be the natural beauty, right?
I mean, I would say one of the things that I've learned is that
I love, you know, I love live music.
I do. That's like my church.
That's my collective conscious churches.
Live music, I see it all the time.
Little venues, big venues, but also nature can do it.
I think that, you know, when you're young you really want

(01:41:47):
that from society. But you know, I'm, I'm sure
you've chosen it for a reason and there's got to be a lot of
natural beauty there. We do a lot of we do a lot of
walking. We are always out in nature, you
know, as we, as we mentioned about, you know, we save a lot
of animals, foster a lot, try and give give the animals to to

(01:42:09):
people and you know, we're very much into the nature.
In fact, even now. I mean, I was looking actually,
it's amazing. It's like we've been almost two
hours now. I can't believe it.
I'm so sorry. No like.
That I could honestly, I could talk.
I want to know so much more. But really two hours.
I can't believe that. But normally like by again,

(01:42:32):
Marcel laughs at me. You know, if he sends me a
message like after 9:00, I'm like, I'm, I'm getting ready for
bed, you know, like, but we're up early.
So, you know, because that's the, the, the way we are here
now, No. No, I understand.
I, I was such a night owl and inproduction, I would go back to
being a night owl, but you know,toes up A10 if I'm home, you
know, so, but yeah, to follow upto what was really nice is in

(01:42:58):
this job, I was also able to tour.
And that's the thing I think you, you know, might be worth
mentioning. Like you're like, how did you
give up touring? Well, I didn't have to and that
was the joy. I was able to tour in the
summers because people need fillin.
So people need someone to do 2 weeks when their five year old
starting school. And I had the wonderful

(01:43:19):
opportunity to fill in with for wonderful LDS and I had the
skill to just jump into something that was already up
and running. So I had the skill that I could
just, you know, send me the file, send me the plot, right.
And I could just jump in. And so touring 2 of the joys I
love at the beginning of a tour when you're sitting in the hotel

(01:43:39):
lobby waiting for that first call and you don't know where
the crew is. I would love to watch people
come down the stairs and go tourist, tourist.
Oh, hey, they're on our crew. They're on our crew.
I bet that's the merchandise lady with the with the tattoos
and the piercings, right? Oh, tourist, that guy, he's on
our tour, right? He's got AT shirt and jeans and

(01:44:03):
a ponytail, but he's carrying a Halliburton.
I wonder if that's our tour manager, right.
So that was fun and also the ability to still do some touring
when I was doing a position, butthen I would have to take my
afternoons and kind of keep up. And since I've been with Felix,
I have not been touring so. So that is part of it.

(01:44:27):
And to be fair, I would say an aha moment for me was I was
doing some fill in and I would love to decide about the fact
that I was offered a lot of filling opportunity because they
all knew I wouldn't try and taketheir job.
And that's the thing, I would like to take a moment and talk
about people who have had an opportunity to fill in someone
else and said what was I supposed to do?

(01:44:49):
The production liked me better and they took the job.
And I know people who have done that.
It doesn't further you. I've also heard those same
people come back to me and say I'm having a hard time finding
my next opportunity. So let me say that right now
that it does not serve you rightto do that and I've lost jobs

(01:45:10):
because of it. I have been offered that.
I didn't take the job back. The person who put me up for the
job also lost the job. We both lost the job, and that's
what the person you took it said.
Well, that person is going to lose their job anyway.
And I'm like, well, but that this is a very small industry
and you may think that people don't talk about that, but they
do so and they do. Who's on your character?

(01:45:32):
I know people that have done it.I also know people that have
done it by taking a pay cut. So I'd say it, you know, and
they've done stuff really sneakily to make God know the
other person look bad and then they moved into their role.
That's also I I've seen a lot ofthat.
It's a way we'll just say that, but it's not.

(01:45:53):
I don't. And once again, I can only say
that's my perspective because once again, I've seen plenty of
people who are charismatic, they're kind of smart and they
just say they know how to do a bunch of stuff and they don't.
And they expect to figure it outon job site and good for them if
they do. But I could never do that path
because I just was cheap. No, I can't do that.
I need to know so and that served me, but I'm not going to

(01:46:16):
say that the other way is wrong.It has worked for plenty of
people who just fake it till they make it.
You know, that's a that's a thing.
People can do it. It is, yeah.
And yeah, and so the last thing I would say is that about
touring, there was a time when projection was added to my
projection and managing projection as well as managing

(01:46:37):
how systems was put on my job plate.
So they were like this can't time can when you go out, we
don't want you to just clone andnot have a system and put this
programming into whatever house rig you have.
We also want you to manage the video.
It's fairly simple to a video. You know they're going to
provide the screen, you provide the projector, but then you have

(01:46:59):
to put the projector up, you have to lens it right.
You have to set up the software next to you, you have to focus
it correctly and you have to clone in a regular production
day. Now I did that run.
It was not great. I got through it, you know, and
the person came to me and this is me being honest about they
came back to me and they said, you know, we saw those shows on

(01:47:20):
YouTube and it didn't seem to usthat you were, as you know,
those shows weren't as tight as you normally do for us.
They were not as good and, and right about the same time.
This is going to sound so funny.I was at a Chinese restaurant.
I we're with my friends. We're opening up the Chinese
fortune cookies, you know, assuming, you know, you have to

(01:47:42):
say the words in bed after it, right?
We're laughing. I get this Chinese message and
it says the Chinese fortune cookie says he who chases 2
rabbits gets no rabbits. And that happened right about
that time. And I was all like, you know,
Kim, if you want to tour, you'regoing to have to stop and tour

(01:48:07):
because things are changing enough now that yes, you can be
as good as you've ever been, maybe better, but you have to
focus on this. You cannot carry a full time
account job and get better at how you're being asked to do
these touring jobs. So I don't I'll share some hard

(01:48:28):
information. I had to make a decision that
you either have to dig in and work harder because you're going
to end up with no rabbits if youdon't.
And I just kind of then and after that I did program some
local shows, but I, that's kind of when I was all like, you
know, you're not going to offer yourself up for touring anymore
because you, you have to, for your own Peace of Mind, be at a

(01:48:51):
certain level and you're going to have to do some more
training, you know? And like we've been saying, even
even though we haven't even touched on, but you know,
lighting technology is constantly changing.
You know, everything is changing, everything is evolving
and you've got to stay on it. You know you can't be doing 2
jobs. You know, one on this side, one

(01:49:12):
on the side, and you. Can I did for a long time, but
but maybe it was just that timing that kind of like it was
just that time. Sometimes things change and
shift and that was a shift for me and I still miss it.
So, you know, it's like poking Abruise and people are like, Oh,
you used to be. And I'm like, listen, yeah,
thanks. So, you know, if I may, because,

(01:49:33):
you know, we might be rounding this up, what I would say where
I am now is for, you know, and you can, you know, you'd maybe
edit some of this, but I just, you know, where I am now.
I really want to say help vendors help you.
You know, I see lighting designsevery day.

(01:49:53):
Please give me your modes. Quit having me chase you around
for your fixture modes. Quit telling me that I should
just assume that you want an extended 91 Spyder.
Do you do? You really do.
You really like, I understand that in your creative position
you might not have talked about the money, but let me tell you,

(01:50:13):
there's a big difference between4 universes and 35 universes in
networking, right? Like it's one thing to throw in
the cable, that's another thing to not be given enough
information. You know, I joke all the time,
like if you want to give me no information, I'll do it for
$1,000,000. If you want to cut the budget,
then give me more information, right?
The more information you give me, the tighter I can make the

(01:50:36):
budget. I'm happy to help you get where
you want to be. That's what I would want to say.
People don't want to have a conversation, you know, and now
maybe I'm going out there a little bit, but people will.
I understand why they ask it, but people will say, how much is
that one piece of gear? And I understand they're like,
well, I've asked you for fifty of those pieces instead of
giving me, you know, the combination plate quote.

(01:50:58):
If you gave me the a la carte quote, I could maybe do some of
that work without asking you again.
But what I want to say is, you know, how much is a plane flight
from San Francisco to Dallas? How much is that?
And they were like, what? And I'm like, well, yeah, yeah.

(01:51:19):
So depends, right? It's the same thing with vendor
chip. It depends, you know, and just
find somebody you can work with so you know, you can get better
vendor outcomes without making it like it's like it's a Home
Depot transactional. Have a conversation, make a
relationship, try to get the information early, try to

(01:51:40):
honestly give the information you have and honestly, once
again, do the work. Send me the modes.
Are you really going to have time to do 91 channel spiders?
I mean, if you have a complete show that you're just going to
clone or something, maybe. But, but you know, I, I recently
listened to Ethan Weber's interview with you guys and he

(01:52:01):
said the same thing. I just want basics.
Please give us that information because here's another thing.
When you're sending this out to bid because you think you're
going to get the best bid and make it the least expensive, or
maybe you think you just want tokeep your favorite vendor
honest. You're giving them so much
opportunity to just give you thebare minimum.

(01:52:23):
People tell me all the time, Kim, I'd like 200 lights.
I'd like some consoles and a complete system.
Really. Because I can give you a
complete system that is just bare bones.
It's a complete system. And then you push back at me
because now you're embarrassed. You're being told that to do
what you really wanted to do, what you knew you wanted to do
and didn't tell us is now addinga few $1000 for that networking.

(01:52:45):
When in fact, why don't you justput everything on the plate
Because they're savvy. The vendors are savvy.
And if you we can be to the letter of your RF specs.
And then when you come back and you go, oh, but I meant this and
you should have known, right? That's fair.
So, so really do do your homework, decide how you want to

(01:53:09):
use that light, right? And, and also when I came to
Felix, I had a lot of experience, but I had to lean in
again, the specs on every new thing, right?
How many lumens, how many, how many attributes?
You know, I have to do that work.
I have to know my inventory. I have to know if what you're
asking for, if I've got anythingthat can be comparable if I

(01:53:31):
don't have exactly what you're asking for.
Although here I often do, which is nice.
But you're, I mean, you're constantly evolved like any job,
any job or position that you've gone through throughout your
whole career, you are constantlyrelearning all the time.

(01:53:52):
Well, I'm easily bored, so I guess that's good.
Although that is the thing I'm working on, the thing that I
work on, that the thing that I give myself for advice is, Kim,
you need to be a little more easy.
Like Sunday morning. You need to do a little bit more
or you can say nothing. A little bit more easy, right?
Because sometimes if you're always pushing for the answer,
you don't let the answer come onits own.

(01:54:15):
Yeah. And so those are always the
lessons I have to keep relearning is like, oh, maybe
you could say nothing, or maybe you could just be easy, like a
Sunday morning, you know, and, and just just there you go.
Again, but that's good that comes with experience to be that
way. I think you know, when you, when
you come into this industry at the very beginning, you're

(01:54:36):
jumping in and you've got this energy, you've got everything
and it's shiny lights and it's all this, it's all that.
And then you're like, actually just just step back a bit.
Step back, step back, take it in.
Learn a new thing today. And self realization, like what?

(01:54:57):
How you think you'll come acrossand how you actually come across
are often different. You know no one knows your
intention. No, I always used to say that I
I used to say like if I had, youknow, like a one or a one or two
day gig really. And this is this is going to
make me sound, but nobody like me, you know, anything I've

(01:55:18):
done, if I've done like a one ortwo day, No, everyone would be
like, because I would want, if Ihad time, I would actually, you
know, try and do stuff, you know, for any, for anyone or
anything. And people were like or, or I'd
have. I have a lot of energy.
So I wake up in the morning, I'mhappy.
Yeah, terrific. Yeah, really.
I, I when I'm at work, this is how I am.

(01:55:39):
I'm happy all day until the lastminute.
Really. I don't, I don't I, this is it.
People that see me for these twodays see me like this.
In fact, a very good friend of mine to this day, I, I was on
tour with her and she didn't like me at the start.
And she used to say to me, sure,she can't be that happy all the

(01:56:00):
time. And honestly, and she gave me so
much shit, like so much. And to this day we are very good
friends. And she's like Sarah.
She's I tell everybody like, youknow what, what you see with her
is what you get. There is no like I'm generally,
I'm going to be this way. And if I see someone that's

(01:56:22):
tired, I'm going to go up to them and try and lift them up.
And for me, like, the longer, the longer the tour was always
better because by the end of it,people could really see me short
things. They just thought I was a
weirdo. I, I can feel that, you know, a
little driven, you know, you don't know that, that some

(01:56:44):
people that's, you know, that, that that pushes them back, you
know, and based on their personality, based on their
experiences, you know, I, I was given this advice once and I
have to other folks that have a similar personality, I've been
able to help them with. Does this need to be said?

(01:57:08):
Does this need to be said right now?
Does this need to be said by me?Like if somebody didn't say,
Kim, what do you think? Maybe you should be easy like a
Sunday morning and just like letit go.
Yep. Oh, you see things and it's
like, is that? Is that my?
My is that. Is that my cue or is?

(01:57:31):
That my cue just a term. I needing to stay in my lane.
Right. I understand maybe I need to
stay in my lane, so yeah. Yeah, don't, don't get involved
in other people's drama. That's another one for me.
Don't get involved with other people's drama because it
doesn't get you anywhere. Like it really doesn't get you
anywhere. You know, you can help in a

(01:57:53):
certain way if someone comes to you, you know, maybe they were
upset or they're sad, whatever, but don't literally purposely
put yourself in the position where you're you've seen
something. So you like go to I'm going to
say to find out the gossip, but be that person.
You can be there if people want to come to you, but don't really

(01:58:17):
don't be that person either because that doesn't get you
anywhere either because you get in the middle of it.
And and having a having an opinion, you know, often is not
a good thing either to give yourlike we were saying about
recommending people, you know, giving people a recommendation
is very dangerous or giving people your opinion.

(01:58:38):
I know we're kind of doing this here on chatting, but you know,
in the working environment, giving your opinion can often be
very damaging to try and build two people's relationship back
up together. That's that's.
Yeah. That's that's very, that's very
real. And again, I've seen that a lot

(01:59:00):
of times, you know, been part ofit all as well.
But is there, is there anything else you'd like to that's on
your mind to bring up to, to saynow?
Because yeah, this is all yours to continue if you have
something that's on your mind. I think, I think we've touched
on most things. I, you know, I would say if I'm

(01:59:22):
talking to folks that are new, Iwould say across the board, be
confident in your decisions and be flexible.
People want to see you be confident in your decisions.
You know, they want you to lead them in a direction and then be
flexible when pressed about that.

(01:59:43):
You know, try to be open, try tobe knowledgeable enough so that
you can, you know, either gentlysay maybe we can try that next
time or do I have the time in this house with a similar
outcome maybe to change what we're doing here?
I think I think early on, right,if if you're trying to get

(02:00:06):
consensus, it's not all, it doesn't always work.
And just that that doesn't seem strong.
Like you need to have confidence.
People want that from you. So that that would be that also.
Just just try to like people andforgive people for being people.
I think there's a time in my career where I thought it would

(02:00:28):
be cool to not like people because they can be stupid and
abrasive. And it sometimes seems to be
cool to be cynical. But that really kind of takes
yourself down, you know, maybe there aren't people who you want
to hang out with whatever, but kind of just let people be
people and just understand, justunderstand that that a sea is a

(02:00:53):
passing grade people, right. So sometimes it can be
frustrating and work that you want to know why can't they just
pick it up? Is it that hard?
Well, you know, maybe it is. And if it's not that hard for
you, well then maybe that's a blessing for you, but it but it
certainly isn't it isn't easy and life is not fair.
So just, you know, all those things to try to, you know, self

(02:01:14):
soothe, understand how to self soothe yourself too, understand
how to, how to recognize that you're the person who is also
part of this communication and how you can, you know, soothe
yourself when it things don't goyour way.
I guess just keep just keep at it, right?
Make some goals. And I want people to have them

(02:01:36):
because a lot of people, you know, that's the hardest thing.
They don't know what they want to do.
So it is good to have an opportunity to you know, say see
where there's, see like you said, see where there are
careers because you know, there are a lot of different, there
are a lot of with different waysto do it.
There is certainly. Well Kim, thank you so much for

(02:01:58):
coming on. I really, really enjoyed this
with you and I said I can't but I mean I only because I looked
down 2 hours but really I could talk forever.
I really hope. Are you going to LDI this year?
I try to make it every year. Yes, OK.
Well, I really hope, I'm sure we'll be in contact for that
anyway. But I really hope to see you at
LDI again. I wish you a fabulous summer and

(02:02:22):
thank you so much for coming on.Thank you very much Sarah for
having me. Now here's the leading ladies by

(02:02:42):
Geezers of Gear on tour. Maybe she got some stories to
share. Now here's the leading ladies by
the Geezers of Gear, Rockstar ladies with some stories to
share because La La La La la ladies.

(02:03:13):
La La La La La La la ladies. Yes, she's a high.
Now here's the leading ladies bygeezers of gear Rock star ladies
for some stories to share. Now here's the.

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#307 - Kim Martin - Women in Lighting: Breaking Barriers and Building Careers - LEADING LADIES

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#307 - Kim Martin - Women in Lighting: Breaking Barriers and Building Careers - LEADING LADIES