#312 - Scott Fisher - Pirate ships, automation systems, construction, collaboration and experiences - Geezers of Gear

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Treasure Island is probably the most concentrated educational
experience I've had in my life because while we were building
the pirate ships and all the automation systems for the ships
and special effects and all the other stuff, we were building
the building. So I didn't know anything about
construction really. And pouring concrete and running
conduit and you know, all of thethings you have got to know to,
to build a casino. But I've been put in that

(00:20):
position to basically help manage all of that out front.
And so, you know, I grabbed basically the heads of the
departments for the the plumbersand electricians and, you know,
the concrete guys and like, look, I don't know anything
about what you guys do, but I'm going to, I'm going to show up
here in five months with two giant ships and they got to have
a place to go. Well, hello and thanks for

(01:11):
joining me again on another great episode of Geese of Gear.
I guess you'll determine whetherit's great or not, but I think
based on today's guest, you're going to be pretty happy and
probably it'll be quite enjoyable.
So what do I want to talk about today?
Of course, AI, you know, AI obviously making huge

(01:33):
advancements. It's hard to keep up.
Like every week somebody else isleading the charge.
One interesting piece of news this past week is that there was
this huge battle with open AI where they were not so open.
They were taking basically a not-for-profit company and
turning it into a for profit company.
And Elon, who was one of the founders of Open AI, was against

(01:57):
this. So he started a lawsuit against
Sam Altman and against the company to stop that from
happening. And eventually they stopped.
So just as of I think last week,Open AI now is no longer going
to become a for profit company. They are going to remain a

(02:19):
not-for-profit, and I'm not surewhat that does to their value or
to their profitability or to their shareholder wealth or
anything, but it's an interesting move.
I don't know if they just kind of backpedaled because it was
becoming impossible or for some other reason.
Maybe they just became really good people all of a sudden and

(02:41):
changed their mind. I will say that until about a
month ago, I wasn't really usingChatGPT very much.
I was using Grok more and it wasbecause I just liked the way
that it responded. I liked the way that it helped
write things. You know, I don't, I don't use
anything written by AI completely, but I will

(03:02):
collaborate with AI on it. And so, you know, I, I just
liked Grok better. And then recently I've really
found actually ChatGPT to have gotten a lot better than it used
to be, both for those collaborating writing jobs or
research jobs, or I use it a lotfor strategy.
Like here's what I'm thinking with my business or with this

(03:25):
situation or with this solution.What do you think?
And you come up with some really, really great solutions
by doing that. And so, yeah, I've used chat
GBTA lot. The other thing is ChatGPT now
really does a good job with images.
So if you're doing a slide deck or you're doing something
internally with your team or whatever, and you need some
simple images, you know, I mightnot make my all my marketing

(03:48):
images or something through ChatGPT, but if you need
something relatively simple and quick, it's pretty good at it.
Or if you need to edit an image that you already have, let's say
you have a picture of a car and you want to make it.
They used an example where they turned, I don't remember What
Car it was, but they turned it into a convertible and it did a
really good job of that. However, yesterday I was showing

(04:11):
it to someone who is trying to learn.
He's a 71 year old guy trying tolearn how to use AI.
And I was over at his house justhaving coffee and he said we'll
take a picture of my wife and put an ice cream cone in her
hand. Show me if you can do that.
And I did that and it did a really good job except that she
had three hands. So it was really funny because
the hand that when she was holding the ice cream cone in

(04:33):
had her original hand and then this new one with the ice cream
cone, they both had the exact same ring on the finger.
It was really wild like. So you know, again, AI is not
going to be perfect. One of the problems you'll see
is lying or making up answers, which they call hallucinations
in the AI world. I just call it lying or making

(04:55):
shit up and but you know, that can be problematic, so you don't
want to just use everything it writes.
Anyways, I've been using Chat GPTA lot more and one of the
things I've learned is this thing called the Socratic
method. And many of you listening are
probably smarter than me and you'll know what that is.
I didn't know. So what that involves is a lot

(05:18):
of question asking as opposed tojust telling it do this for me.
So I will say, you know, I'm looking to create this plan and
what kind of questions do you need to ask me in order to move
forward with this plan as well informed as you can possibly be
to help me. And so the answers you get and

(05:41):
the results and the the plan that you'll get from that versus
just telling it to do it is unbelievable.
Like it is so much better. You know, it's almost like using
the Socratic method when you're talking to your employees or
your children, like your kid does something wrong and and
they come in with the sad face on and am I grounded, daddy?

(06:03):
And you say, well, what do you think?
Do you think you should be grounded?
Tell me what I should do. You know, those types of things.
And so if you haven't done it and you're using Chachi BT or
Grok or whatever it is, you're using Gemini, Claude and
etcetera, because they keep popping up, but whatever you're
using, just type into it and say, hey, can you tell me how I

(06:24):
might use the Socratic method ofprompting?
And I think you're going to findsome really, really great
results from that. So try.
It's a cool little hack. I like it a lot.
And what else? Of course, I've told you a few
times that I'm building something with AI right now.
That's very cool. I'm not going to tell you too
many details, but I will tell you that it is a very advanced,

(06:49):
very necessary platform for cross rentals that is going to
just really democratize access, democratize access to global
inventory, global gear that currently is very fragmented.
It's very just, it's kind of theWild West out there.

(07:11):
Like, you know, if you're looking for cross rental gear
for a big tour or something, it is so hard to find things.
You got to make 1000 phone calls.
We're really changing that. So believe it or not, we're
going to be launching pretty quickly, probably early July.
I hope we might even be launching sort of a 1/2 version

(07:32):
of it just so that we can share it with some people in the
background within the next few weeks.
But we've been working on it fora while.
I've been envisioning this thingsince probably 2006 or 7.
So I hope you'll support it. I hope you'll like it.
I hope you'll appreciate the effort and the the science that

(07:52):
we've put into this thing. But it is very heavily reliant
on especially agentic AI agents that we've built to really do
all of that work for you, to find that gear for you so that
you don't have to do it yourself.
And so I'm pretty excited about that.
I have learned a lot on that journey.
Obviously, I've learned a lot about AI, about how to basically

(08:15):
launch an AI platform, what the costs are.
So, you know, every time you do something on ChatGPT, someone
somewhere is paying for that server time.
And of course, Open AI has many hundreds of billions of dollars
that they've raised in order to do this.
We don't. So that comes at a cost that
we're looking at pretty hard right now and figuring out what

(08:36):
the business model looks like and stuff, which we know.
But anyways, yeah, I hope you'llsupport it.
We're going to be launching moreinformation soon.
If you want to talk to me about it, just reach out to me.
By the way, one of the best waysto reach me if you ever want to
have a meeting with me or sit inmy office and just chitchat or
have me look at something in your business or whatever it is.

(08:59):
Our platform that we operate, our company, our virtual
platform is Rome. And so it's RO dot AM slash
Marcel. That's my calendar.
So if you ever want access to mycalendar to book a meeting
directly into it without even asking me, go ahead.
RO dot AM slash Marcel. That's how you get to my

(09:19):
calendar. So today's guest is a good one
and they all are. I love all of our guests, but
today's guest is really super interesting.
Former President and CEO at Fisher Technical Services, of
course that's Scott Fisher. Scott is the founder and former
CEO of Fisher Technical ServicesFTSI, where he developed the

(09:41):
industry changing navigator control system for live
entertainment and film automation.
After merging FTSI with Tate, Scott shifted focus to motion
control and stunt rigging for major feature films.
With decades of experience across touring, themed
attractions and cinema, Scott brings deep insight into the

(10:02):
intersection of technology and storytelling.
So I am hoping he's going to want to do some storytelling
today. And here you go, Scott Fischer,
how are you? I'm great good ladies and
gentlemen, it's Scott Fischer. So it, it's funny when people
have done as many things as you've done at the level that

(10:24):
you've done them. And I've been in this industry,
I hate to say 35 years, but I don't know you, you know, and I
don't even know if I've met you at a trade show or anything like
I, I really don't know you. I didn't know who did the things
that that we're going to talk about.
And now I know that that's you obviously.
So between not knowing you and between and and also not knowing

(10:48):
much about automation, which is where you've spent much of your
career. I'm really looking forward to to
learning here today. So thanks first and foremost for
taking some time to come on. My pleasure.
Yeah. And so a lot of the people I get
on this podcast are, are very public and, you know, call it

(11:09):
even braggy. Some people, you know, where
every day they're posting Instagram pictures of look at
the rig I did today, look at thething I designed yesterday, Look
at the thing I designed last week, which is great.
I mean, in our industry, it's a very visual industry.
People love scrolling through lighting images on on Instagram
or whatever. And you're, you're really not,
you know, like I went looking through your call it socials and

(11:32):
there's just nothing out there. There's not much going on.
Yeah, I kind of, I take the behind the scenes thing
seriously, I guess. Yeah, try to keep on relatively
low profile and let the gears befor itself I guess.
Yeah, yeah, no. And and there's nothing wrong
with that. And and you know, we'll get into
some of the stuff you've done and the projects that you've
been involved in are just mind blowing.

(11:54):
Like if anyone could brag, I think it's you.
So, you know, I like to kind of go in the way back machine and,
and talk about how people got into the industry because sure,
so many people, believe it or not, who've listened to this
podcast are young people who arejust entering the industry and
they want to hear from, you know, it's called geezers of
gear because I'd say a good 60% of our, our guests are, are call

(12:19):
it 50 plus and, and. I can order off the senior menu
now. OK.
And yeah, yeah, I'm almost there.
I'm almost at the senior menu but I'm not quite there yet so.
Maybe I'll get a fake ID in the opposite direction of what we
did when we were kids. Right?
Get a fake ID that says that I'mold enough to order off the

(12:39):
senior menu and get the senior discount in hotels in two days.
Podcast is proudly brought to you by ETC.
For 50 years, ETC has made a name for itself in much more
than the theatre world. ETC.
Lighting, rigging and control technology has scaled not only
across the entire globe, but also to nearly any building size

(13:02):
and type you could possibly imagine.
Broadway shows, rock concerts, sports stadiums, outdoor parks,
TV studios, convention centers, you name it, have all trusted
ETC to make their design beautiful and their spaces safe.
A big part of that trust comes from ET CS renowned customer
support. The global 24/7 tech support

(13:25):
team stands behind every ETC product, whether you're in the
middle of tech, on a high schooltheater production, or
scheduling a light show on the facade of an iconic building.
ET CS support has always been incredibly responsive and
helpful, but now employees have even more of a personal stake in

(13:46):
maintaining that reputation. The company company has become
100% employee owned. Each person building the
fixtures, developing the controlsoftware, and picking up support
calls is an owner at ETC. Outstanding support, reliable
products, innovative technology.This is the foundation of

(14:08):
excellence that ETC has built. Over the past 50 years.
So anyways, how did you get intothis industry?
How did you get started? Did you go to school for it?
Did you just fall into it? I didn't go to school for it.
I was, I was on the stage crew in high school and loved it.

(14:29):
Like there was like all I wantedto do, but I didn't think that
was a real job because, you know, I didn't know anybody who
did it. Nobody in my family did it.
I didn't know him. You know, that had no entry into
it. So I went to school for the
logical engineering instead, thinking that would get me a
real job. But to pay for school, I was
doing stagehand work, like on the weekends and 10 nights in,

(14:52):
you know, the greater Philadelphia area, I guess
Atlantic City, Wilmington, Philly, Baltimore, around there,
unloading trucks, running the spotlight, you know, whatever,
whatever they had going that paid money.
So you just, you went out and like met up with the lighting
companies or whatever. And yeah, I just went and said
hey. Done for hire.

(15:12):
Pretty much like, you know, focused in on aligning Lecos and
that kind of stuff, you know, atnight for aligning, you know,
that kind of old school I guess sort of stuff.
Doing that today is probably a little bit harder, right?
Like I think most of the companies are a lot more
corporate. There's an HR department
involved, there's possibly private equity owners who they.

(15:34):
Want to see a degree and they want to see.
Liability adverse, you know, call it.
So you probably can't just show up in T-shirts and blue jeans or
whatever and get a gig from any old company these days as easily
as you used to do it back in ourday, I guess.
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
So you just started out doing odd gigs and and you were

(15:57):
planning on being an electrical engineer?
Yeah, basically. And today's podcast is brought
to you by Artistry in Motion. When it's time to make a moment
unforgettable, Artistry in Motion delivers.
Since 1994, they've been the go to source for top tier confetti
and streamer special effects, turning ordinary events into

(16:18):
explosive show stopping experiences.
From concerts and TV productionsto major sporting events and
theme parks, they bring the wow factor with precision and
creativity. So whether you need a massive
stadium drop or a subtle, picture perfect cascade, they
make it happen on time, every time.

(16:40):
Their team doesn't just supply confetti, they collaborate with
show designers, event planners and production teams to ensure
every effect is camera ready andcrowd approved.
Want to take your next event to the next level?
Hit them up artistryinmotion.comand let's make memories happen.
Oh, I got a job at Bally's in Atlantic City on the stage crew

(17:07):
there. And Steve Wynn had just sold
that to Bally's. It used to be the Golden Nugget.
And he sold that partially to finance the construction of The
Mirage in Vegas. So he took a bunch of people
with him when he went to Vegas. And some of those people were in
the entertainment department andthey were in the process of
putting up the Sigfred and Roy show there and quickly found

(17:30):
that the technical level of thatshow was more than your average
stage end on hand. And one of my friends mentioned
to the entertainment director, hey, we know this kid back in
the Atlantic City just got his degree, chose up to work on
time, give him a call. And I get this random phone call
from the entertainment director going, do you want a job?

(17:51):
You know, largely undefined. Basically, it's just that I'm
weird. I'm like, sure, like white
tigers. That sounds fun.
And then like, when can you be there?
And I'm like could start drivingtomorrow.
Wow. So I drove from Jersey to Vegas
without anywhere to live or anything to do and didn't know
what the job description really was but showed up and started
working. That was my.

(18:12):
That's pretty wild, especially from from Vegas.
Like, you know, you'd think thatin Vegas they'd be able to find
a person to do that, but I guessbecause there was at least a
perceived skill. Set match, perhaps right at the
time the, the, the center of technology was Broadway because

(18:33):
you had Santa, but the opera, you had Starlight Express, you
had all the big Angel and Weber stuff going on.
And and in fact, the the companies that came out to build
the first Vegas shows were Broadway companies Show Tank and
and at the time ECT S that whichbecame PRG were in Vegas
basically bringing the technology with them right and
the people. Yeah, I remember that.

(18:54):
Like I I don't even remember whether I was with Martin or
High end. What year did The Mirage open?
Yeah, 80 beginning of 199089 waswhen we were doing it in Sigrid
or production. OK, so it wasn't even The Mirage
I I thought it was a bit later. I thought it was 90, 5 or
something. 94 or 95? Mirage.

(19:16):
I guess I'm wrong. 1990 TreasureIsland was 93.
OK, maybe it was. Treasure Island, Bellagio
Bellagio was 97. Yeah, it probably was Treasure
Island. I had sold them some lights.
It was Treasure Island. I had sold them some lighting.
And I went for the opening. I was invited for the opening.
And I remember walking through this nice hotel and going to my

(19:40):
room and at the same time that the hotel opened, as I recall,
was it The Mirage? I'm getting all confused now.
It was either The Mirage or Treasure Island, but whichever
one it was, Grateful Dead were in town that weekend during the
opening at the stadium at UNLV or whatever.
And. And so there were these Dead

(20:03):
heads sleeping in the hallways of this nice brand new hotel.
And they were just like all over.
It was sleeping bags in the hallway.
So it I was stepping over these these Grateful Dead fans that
were sleeping in hallways and they were like showering in the
casino bathrooms, like cleaning themselves up and stuff in
casino bathrooms. It was hilarious.
It was so funny. But yeah, so.

(20:28):
So that's pretty cool. Like you get hired and brought
into Vegas. I mean, as a kid living on the
East Coast, that must have been like, whoa.
Like all your friends, like, never been out in Jersey before
that, you know? So it was really, Oh yeah, I've
been on an airplane before. It was Brave New World.
That is crazy. That's wild and.

(20:50):
To say it was incredibly lucky in retrospect because that was
right at the start of the big mega building boom of Las Vegas.
Yeah, so do you still, you don'tstill live in Vegas, do you?
I do, actually. I split my time between the East

(21:12):
Coast and Vegas, but I still have a house there and I'm still
a resident of. OK, OK, cool.
So from there like did did that kind of launch, you know the big
part of your career I guess at that time when.
Yeah. Because, because up to that
point, I'd been mostly a lighting guy.
Yeah. And I have a very distinct

(21:32):
memory of of walking into the back of the house at Sigfred and
Roy. They had the dragon on stage
trying to program that. And this was this big 40 foot
tall, 21 access hydraulic dragonthat breathes fire and it was
enormous. And I'm like, oh, that's what I
want to do. Yeah.
So. So what was your gig there when

(21:54):
you weren't doing the automationthere, you were doing other?
I basically got brought out to be a smart guy who showed up on
time. Like they didn't actually have a
role for me other than my my eventual title became Technical
Rover, which was basically be anywhere on stage that something
is happening so that if it breaks, you can fix it.

(22:16):
Yeah. So that's interesting, yeah.
And, and so how did like, how did that sort of grow into like
a career in Vegas basically thatcreated so many different
offshoots from it? Yeah, I mean, the Vegas was
basically becoming the epicenterof entertainment technology as

(22:37):
these big shows got, you know, continued to push the envelope
of like, never been done before,never been done before, never
been done before. But I wanted to kind of gather
up a bunch of skills because I Ijust liked the whole thing.
So I did Sigford and Roy for about a year and a half and then
I went and did some touring stuff with Foy for performer
flying. Oh, OK.

(22:58):
I flew Paula Abdul on her tour and then came back to Vegas and
was one of the project managers for the Treasure Island
Buccaneer Bay Pirate battle and then left again after that.
Went to work for a special effects company that did theme
park stuff for a while. The guys who did like the back
draft ride and the other stuff. So I learned about flames and

(23:19):
special effects and liquid nitrogen and explosions and
stuff and then came back to Vegas and did EFX like which had
a huge amount of special effectson it.
Right. Yeah, I, I was in Vegas during
when EFX was being built and I remember Jerry Harris and Tim
Brennan taking me for a like a Grand Tour before the show had

(23:45):
launched. And I remember there were like,
I think there were four lightingprogrammers who were programming
on Compulite animators at the time.
This is pre hog and and going under the stage and seeing all
of this automation. I didn't know what most of it
was. I didn't know what any of it was
really. But they were explaining it to

(24:05):
me and I was like whoa. I think at the time that was
like the most expensive show it was.
Absolutely. That was that was probably the
first of the of the completely open checkbook shows of like
they just went out to the neighbors kind of thing.
And there was a series of those typically between MGM and Win,
but there was a whole bunch of money as no objects, which was

(24:28):
again, super lucky to be in thatenvironment at that time.
I mean, it felt almost like the post World War 2 aerospace
industry. It's like where you're building
a new jet every three weeks, youknow?
Yeah. Then you come up with the SR71
or something and or the Saturn 5, and it's like, oh, if you
weren't there at that time, you wouldn't have been involved with

(24:48):
that stuff in this or AI ride. It felt like that.
Yeah, AI right now what's happening with AI where it's
like just doubling itself so quickly and they're saying like
within one year it's going to dothis.
And then it does that in four months and then it triples again
in the next four months. And you're like, what is it?
The speed is picking up and it'sjust getting so crazy.

(25:11):
But but yeah, so I could see that'd be a really exciting time
to be there. It was.
Amazing. Yep.
And so. EFX was your introduction to
automation, or you were? No synchro donor was my intro to
automation. Oh, it was.
I was what was I that was, I mean I was assistant type of

(25:32):
automation, I guess was my finaltitle OK there.
But running all the winches and the hydraulics and the the big
robotic dragon and halt all the craziness there and then kind of
went on to learn other stuff at other companies then and then
basically start back to automation.
So was that on purpose? Like, did you did you just go,

(25:54):
oh, yeah, this is cool, I want to do this like you.
You mentioned the dragon before and, and how it was like, whoa,
yeah, that's what I want to do. And that's just worked out.
You get to play with all of the toys at the same time in
automation, like here's to hydraulics, pneumatics,
electrical stuff, closed up controls, computer controls,
like all of it's in the same in that basket.

(26:16):
And you've kind of sort of know a little about all of it.
Yeah. Well, and just so many Wows, you
know, it's just like, you know, having the audience in awe all
the time because things are moving and and yeah, yeah,
that's that's pretty cool. And so after Siegfried and Roy
was did you say EFX was the nextone that you got?

(26:37):
Involved For me, the next thing was I did.
I did some rock'n'roll touring and then came back to Vegas and
did Treasure Island. Rock'n'roll.
Touring again. Automation.
Yeah, winches and that kind of stuff.
OK, performer, performer flying.Yeah, and then Treasure Island.
So Treasure. Island, the Pirate Battle and

(26:57):
the Pirate. Battle and mysterious.
Show I was working for Show Techat the time and they had the
contract for both the pirate battle and the mysterious show
in the theater, so I was bouncing back and forth between
these two. And so how big of a team are you
working on for automation at that point?
Like is it 5 people? Is it 50 people?

(27:19):
What is it? In this in the show tech shop,
it was mostly the, the, the bulkof the people were fabricators
like, well, there's machinists, that kind of stuff.
The team of guys doing actual automation, maybe 6-8 so.
Doing big stuff like, you know. We never slept, basically never

(27:42):
went on. Yeah.
I can't even imagine that. So the pirate battle, like, was
that one of the harder things that you had to do at that
point? I, I remember there were all
kinds of like Steve Terry talkedabout some stuff, you know, with
dimmer failures or something, orI don't remember what he was.
Saying something, the ground, the ground.
No problems with the yeah, yeah,yeah, the GFI lights, but they

(28:06):
didn't really want to be GFI. Well, and it it's just you don't
know what you don't know when, when you're doing projects that
have never done been done before, you kind of learn as you
go a little bit, right? You can try and do the math as
much as you want, but. Treasure Island is probably the
most concentrated educational experience I've had in my life

(28:27):
because we were, while we were building the pirate ships and
all the automation systems for the ships and special effects
and all the other stuff we were building the building.
So I didn't know anything about construction really.
And pouring concrete and runningconduit and you know, all of the
things you have got to know to, to build a casino, But I've been
put in that position to basically help manage all of

(28:51):
that out front. And so, you know, I grabbed
basement ahead to the apartmentsfor the, the plumbers and
electricians and, you know, the concrete guys and like, look, I
don't know anything about what you guys do, but I'm going to,
I'm going to show up here in five months with two giant
ships. And they got to have a place to
go. So you got, we got to help each
other out here. And they, they were great.

(29:12):
They, they kind of took me undertheir wings a little bit, I
guess, and just basically explained how their jobs worked
and what they did and what they,what they needed.
And I explained to what we were doing and what we needed to do.
And we were able to collaborate.Have like, you know, the
electricians would get behind and like the North End of the
property. And I'd say, OK, well, I'll move
my guys over to the South and we'll work there for a week

(29:33):
while you guys finish that up. We'll swap and it's all this
sort of horse trading going on in the background and I learned
an astonishing amount of stuff both on our end, on the
entertainment end as well as theconstruction and which which
really helped me out later doingtheme park work for Disney and
those guys. I also, I read, I think it was
in your notes about the, the Michael Jackson thing with

(29:54):
Treasure Island. So what was that about So?
We had we had built the ships off off the strip, not too far
off the Strip, but we were past Industrial Rd.
If you if you know Vegas, of course.
Yeah, kind of kind of back on Wind Road.
And we had a big warehouse and we actually had to cut a wall
out of the warehouse and knock it out to get the ships out of
the which you know, but basically we took them down

(30:21):
Tropicana over the bridge over 15 and then hung a left onto the
Strip. But we had to get a lot of power
involved to lift power lines. And, and you know, there's,
there's this enormous piece and there's this giant crane sitting
in front of Treasure Island waiting to crane it in.
But we did it at like 3:00 in the morning because they had to
close the strip basically both both directions and.

(30:44):
Become carrying it on like a massive flatbed or.
Something big things with the multi axle, you know, we, we, we
craned it into place in the parking lot of the building onto
that thing. And then they drove it over.
And, but because it was such an event, Steve Wynn wanted to make
a little more of an event out ofit.
So him, he and Michael Jackson rode the pirate ship down the

(31:08):
strip at 3:00 in the morning before we craned it in.
So they're like up on the bow while we're like trying to make
sure we don't take out any powerlines or knock down palm trees
or with the thing. Bob Orr was also involved.
He he did most of the mechanicaldesign.
He's a legendary guy from Imagineering in Disney.
Yeah. And team teams on the ship as

(31:28):
well. And I learned a ton working with
them as well at the time. So were crowds lining the
streets, Like, did people know about this?
It had been announced. Yeah.
They. They wasn't like, in the paper
or anything, but people kind of knew.
And the word got out. So yeah, there were people
taking pictures and on the I. Guess, I guess when you're Steve
Wynn, you can just kind of call up MJ and say.
Especially you can do this. Thing, yeah.

(31:50):
MJ had been involved in the Siegfried and Roy show.
He wrote the theme song and did he loved playing with the
Tigers. Forgot about that, yeah.
Yeah, there there was an eveningwhere he came and we showed him
how to run the dragon and he gotto play with the dragon and make
the fire breathe and stuff like that.
So wow, Yeah, it was a weird time, but it was.
Very cool. Yeah.
Yeah. No, that's really cool.

(32:11):
What a cool memory. Yeah.
So you hadn't created Navigator yet though, right?
No. So how did like, how did things
get to that? Like was it based on need?
Like were you doing all of thesedifferent big jobs?
And you were like, wait a second, we're missing something
in all of this. Basically, yeah, I mean, my, my

(32:32):
sort of inflection point was on building the Bellagio Theater.
So I had, I had started Fisher, Fisher Technical Services the
year before we did Bellagio, butit was just me in a bedroom in
my house, basically just writingspecifications and doing some

(32:53):
mechanical design and that kind of stuff, but not actually
fabricating anything. So I was one of the technical
project managers for the construction of the Bellagio,
the O Theatre, another monstrous, you know, open
checkbook show. Yeah, I wrote all the
specifications, got all the worked with Rick Gray and
Jeanette Farmer to get all the contractors hired and get

(33:15):
everybody managed. And just watching some of the
contractors work, it's it's likethis is painful.
I can do this and that once, once Bellagio, basically we did
the turnover from the construction to Cirque display
for production. At that point I left and got a
shop space and got a couple friends and.

(33:37):
Started building something. So when you were on your own,
working from your bedroom, a oneperson company, Fisher Technical
Services, Yeah. Was that stressful?
Like as far as doing something the size of the Bellagio
showroom, knowing that, you know, if something goes wrong or
whatever, you're you're doomed, You're out of business.

(33:58):
You can't even blame anyone because it's just you.
You know, yeah, it wasn't it. It being just me was actually a
kind of a stress reducer becauseI knew even if it went all
sideways, I could just go back to be on a stage hand.
It didn't get stressful till later when I had like employees
and had to make payroll and you know.
Pack up stuff that is true, yeah.
Then it feels much more grown up, but yeah.

(34:19):
There wasn't, there wasn't as much at stake for me or anybody,
you know, who I employed in the beginning because there wasn't
that money at this, you know? That's a, that's a great point.
You can just, you know, fold up your company and go back to work
and just, yeah, regular work. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting.
I never thought of it that way. Like as I, I would just think
that, you know, like if something crashes, you know,

(34:42):
it's nice if you have a whole bunch of people because it kind
of crashes and then spreads the weight of the crash over all of
those people as opposed to it's all on me, you know, and it just
crushes me. But you make a good point.
Go in the other direction. You don't have responsibility
for all those people and expenses and etcetera.
So it's actually a little easierbecause if things fail, they

(35:02):
fail and they'll. Have to go sideways and then you
don't want it to go sideways. But if it does, you're not like
affecting people's livelihoods, you know?
Yeah. So then you you hired employees,
built a shop and then you started creating things and was
navigator one of the first things or?
No, we didn't have that many employees or that much stuff.

(35:24):
So we basically started buildingsmall pieces of automation
equipment, like little winches for specialty gags.
We built the gear for the big disappearing curtain at the
beginning of O, that big red curtain that flies out.
And so we built some stuff for Universal Studios and we did, we

(35:46):
did develop basically a version one of Navigator that's sort of
ran kind of half on Windows, half on DOS.
But we, we essentially were doing automation at the time was
largely based on industrial equipment.
So basically you would sort of get married to a, an industrial

(36:07):
supplier like Allen Bradley or SUW Eurodrive or Siemens or one
of those guys that basically usetheir equipment, put a front end
on it that people could make it a little easier to program.
But most of them were still kindof clunky.
And then that was automation. And then the first version of
the Navigator, we, we did basically the same thing.
We had, we used an industrial platform and just wrote a Pista

(36:29):
Windows interface for it so you could program it.
But then a few years in we got the contract to provide the
automation for Lorev at the win.And this was 2003, I want to say
somewhere around there. And that was an inflection point

(36:50):
that was basically, and looking back on it, I still really can't
believe that this was the decision, but it was, are we
going to be an automation company or not?
Because even even writing, writing a front end just for
regular industrial gear, there'slimitations to it.
You're basically, you're limitedto what that stuff can do.

(37:12):
And what we wanted to do was basically right.
And from the ground up design and entertainment automation
system that was basically the equipment agnostic, could talk
to anything, could control anything, put it all under 1
wrapper and and provide the freedom and the speed of
programming you needed for showslike we had been working on.

(37:33):
Because a lot of the employees came from certain places like
that. And everyone was kind of aware
of, yeah, eventually it all worked.
But man, it was a slob to to getthere.
And it was tough as it was toughas an operator to know what was
going on at any time. And so we had this giant wish
list of like, wow, I wish, you know, they would work this way

(37:55):
or this that where I had these tools or I had these things.
And that's when we decided to basically on on the Lorev
contract within the Lorev timeline, go from a completely
clean sheet of paper and design and build the entire Navigator
automation system and implement it for the very first time on

(38:15):
Lorev. That was that was Navigator one.
Yeah, Lorev was the first show that we do, which was bonkers.
That is wild. It was nuts.
It was it was everything. It was consoles, it was
emergency stop systems, it was motion control, it was the user
interface software, all the wenches, all the mechanical gear

(38:36):
have all at the same time withinlike 13 months.
Whoa, yeah, it was nuts. But that was that was the
genesis of Navigator as people know it today.
Basically there, there wasn't, there wasn't earlier a Navigator
one and that we learned some some good stuff on that as far
as operator in a case and where we were still deficient on tools
and that kind of stuff and then.Right, the clean chain

(39:00):
navigator, Yeah. And I, I don't know anything
about this navigator product, but so I read a little bit about
it and one of the things that I thought was really interesting
was rules. And so did that exist right in
the beginning? Yeah, rules.
Rules was a problem that came came from a problem we had to

(39:21):
solve on Larev. There was this giant turntable
that was basically the entire ceiling of the theater that had
1010 flying tracks in it and it would revolve.
So there was an annular area where we could pick up
performers or scenery, track them in, drop them into the
thing and rotate the turntable. But the theater had a height

(39:43):
limitation. So we had the turntable up at
there, but we only had about 15 feet or so of actual height.
So the problem is you have to have limits for your winch lines
going up and you have to have sufficient room to decelerate
before you actually whack into anything hard with it.
So if we had used regular mechanical limits, you would

(40:05):
never be able to get anything off the ground because it you
you'd have to stop slowing down from top speed about 10 feet
away from the structure to give it time to actually come to a
stop. So rules rules were basically.
A structure that we had to make for if then statements.
So it would be like if you are 20 feet away from the turntable
and you are still going at 10 feet per second, automatically

(40:26):
slow down to five. If you are 5 feet away and
you're still going at 5 feet a second.
So basically imagine somebody took the joystick and just
floored it at the feeling. No, no deceleration.
The rules would basically step in and take over and knock you
down to speeds that you could still decelerate A.
So they're like programmed limits or whatever it's.

(40:47):
If then statements for literallyanything in the system, so you
can relate any data from any piece of gear to any other
action of any other piece of gear.
Whether it's just pop up a message on my screen to bring
the entire system to a scratch, screeching halt.
So literally any piece of data that the system has access to,
it can relate to any other pieceof control.

(41:07):
And they all layer on top of each other, all of those.
Rules they just like. One doesn't take precedence over
the next one or. Whatever.
If you look at so previously there were like theme parks, you
would do a sort of a pseudo rulesystem where you would take a
separate PLC or separate controller and write basically
supervisory rules on that and have that watcher system.

(41:27):
And that sort of concept got rolled into the navigator DNA.
So it was already in there. So the operators had access to
that as opposed to having to program an entire supervisory
system by itself. But it became handy.
It became handy for anything like you could say, you know,
play a voice message from speaker to when this lift gets

(41:48):
to position a, you know any, anyif then statement you can think
of. You can write based on the
rules. And they just sit there and they
are in the background constantlyscanning for those conditions.
So it sort of sounds like sort of automation control and show
control kind of mixed into one sense.
Yeah, Yeah. That's really cool.

(42:10):
And so this was early 2000s, right?
It's what you said when you started building that.
Were you building it just for your own projects at that time?
Or were you also selling it to other people for their projects?
We would sell it to or license it anyway to permanent
installations. So like Larev or any other show
that needed it, you would basically sell them a software

(42:31):
license and all the gear that went with it.
Interesting. So you were using somebody
else's hardware and you were just building the software that
tied everything together. Is that how it worked or did you
build the hardware as well? Generally you use somebody
else's hard right? You're like no one and no one's.
It's not like dimmers where you're where like a lighting
company's built in dimmers from scratch essentially.

(42:53):
Like you would buy a motor driveor a hydraulic valve.
I see. And you had to be able to talk
to that and tell it what to do basically.
So Navigator had all the motion control stuff built into it and
didn't care what manufacturer the gear came from.
Whereas all the systems were like if you were an Allen
Bradley system, you had to use Allen Bradley gear because
that's all we talked to. I see.

(43:15):
So you were, we were like whatever you got higher, higher
outside contractors to build their stuff.
We'll talk to that, we'll talk to that.
We'll get it all under more interesting umbrella.
So you can have. Yeah, it was.
It was a. Nutty complicated project and we
didn't know how complicated it was when we started.
It sounds like it. So did that end up becoming a

(43:37):
hardware project too or or was it always?
Just something we built, circuitboards for motion control, we
built OK, all kinds of stuff. So you became a manufacturer as
well as. All of this, we were already
building mechanical equipment, Yeah, at the time.
The winches and turntables and hydraulic gear and elevators and
all that kind of stuff. But so your schooling eventually

(43:57):
did come back around and and help out, you know, in your
career. It wasn't just a waste like so
many people who take like a, youknow, social studies, you know,
or something and, and end up becoming a, you know, whatever,
a touring Lt. But so eventually you obviously

(44:19):
start doing a bunch of work withwith our friends at Tate.
When did that happen? How did that happen?
Like how did you connect with Tate?
Was it just the obvious thing they're doing these monstrous
shows and. Yeah, basically, I guess 2006,
2007 somewhere on there. We met them actually at LDI and

(44:40):
they came over and they had beenstruggling a little bit with
their own sort of how to do controls stuff in house.
They they had the same problems that we had had 10 years prior
where you had all these different manufacturers of
things you. Just have a head start you.
Couldn't make them all talk together.
And so you had like one guy overhere on a button and one guy
over there on a button and some guy over there on a joystick and

(45:01):
stage manager going, OK, everybody go.
And you know, so yeah, we, we, they were, they were a pretty
good client of ours for, for a while.
And we were mostly supplying control systems and some
mechanical gear to them for the for the touring shows.
Yeah. So like, I mean, I remember

(45:24):
around that time Tate was reallystarting to create these really
nutty, you know, set pieces or automated things on on a lot of
these shows and flying performers out over the audience
and. That's when they adopted
Navigator was kind of enabled them to step a step up in their
mechanical automation. Game Yeah, yeah.

(45:50):
So that that obviously that relationship got better and
better and eventually they came to you and said hey Scott, we
think we need to own your company and basically, yeah,
yeah. And I mean, to me it sounds like
a perfect marriage, like the thecompany that's growing the most
of that type of construction, you know, building these massive

(46:12):
automated flying sets and stuff,should probably own that control
method. Yeah, they definitely needed a
control system. Yeah, to.
Did they ever talk about just licensing it versus buying the
whole darn company? They were when we, when we were
first starting out with them, they were, they were basically

(46:34):
just one of our clients. So they did the licensing like
everybody else did, Yeah. And then when they started sort
of courting the idea of growing,growing take much bigger and
getting some some financing and some capital involved, that's
when the we started discussing take closer relationships
always. Yeah, yeah.

(46:56):
And probably like most sort of people who are in this business
really to create cool things anddo cool things and stuff, the
business side of it was maybe something that you were probably
willing to let go of or or was that not something you wanted to
let? Yeah, I was, I mean, I was like,
obviously I started as a stagehand, so business

(47:19):
management was not really a great love of mine.
It was sort of a something you had to do.
So I had to, you know, I had attempted to have a series of
general managers, people from the business world come in and
help run the business side of the company.
But entertainment's a weird business and it freaked out a
lot of these guys. How we, how it actually?

(47:40):
Works not too many people so. I always ended up kind of
circling back and then getting back involved in the business,
which kind of took away from my design time stuff.
I got into the software development and that then the
hardware development and that kind of thing.
So I was kind of stretched in two directions.
So yeah, any opportunity to basically offload from me

(48:02):
personally at least more of the business operations to people
who actually like doing that so I could focus more on on the
gear was. Was welcome.
You know, it's funny because it's such a common thing in our
industry. Like I see so many creative
people who realize they need to start a company because that's
what you're supposed to do when you grow beyond just yourself or

(48:24):
whatever. And they're not passionate at
all about running the company. They're passionate about
creating and doing the work and being the scientist behind all
of that stuff. I had a business partner like
this once and him and his wife decided to come at me and say he
should be the president of the company, even though he was a

(48:46):
minority partner of mine. He he needs to be the president.
He shouldn't be a vice president, but he was a vice
president for a reason. He, he hated, you know, dealing
with people and dealing with business stuff.
And as soon as we made him the president, he lost all his
passion. He did a terrible job.
People didn't want to deal with him.

(49:07):
And, you know, I just wanted himlocked in a little room creating
really cool stuff because that'swhat he did so well.
And it, it really ruined the business when when we made that
change. And I think again, a lot of
people do it because they think it's what they should be doing.
I'm not saying this was the casewith you, but and and at some
point it's just like you take all this and I'm just going to

(49:29):
take this part that I that I am doing this for the reason that I
got into this. So I mean.
Business wise, there's sort of athreshold for like, like I, I
could see, I knew which kinds ofprojects we wanted to be
involved in. You know, we wanted to build
those big theaters in the giant theme park shows and we wanted
to build that big gear. The company is probably the most

(49:50):
fun when we were like around 2530 employees, but we had to
get up to 75 to 100 employees had a big space to be able to do
those big shows. Yeah, we wanted to do the big
shows, so yeah. You know, a lot of stress at
that point, yeah. It's a lot of sleep deprivation,
a lot of stress. Yeah.
A. Lot of stress, a lot of stress.

(50:12):
No, I completely get it. Trust me.
I, I only have 10 employees and for me, sometimes it's a lot of
stress because you know, no matter what payrolls, payroll
and expenses are expenses and everything scales, you know, so
it's, it's whether it's $100,000problem or $1,000,000 problem,
it's still a problem, you know, so, so I completely get that.

(50:35):
So anyways, they they obviously made you a deal that you
couldn't refuse and and you became part of the company for a
while and I would guess that that was a huge change for you.
How many employees did Tate haveat that time?
Tate had, I think at that time they had a couple 100.
Oh, that's it. I thought they were maybe bigger
than that by 2010. Yeah, I was.

(50:59):
I'm not entirely sure, but I think it was only a couple 100
because they were still just in the one bill.
OK, OK. Yeah, man, they've grown now.
Yeah, completely different Business Today.
Yeah, you. Inject some massive amounts of
cash and you can grow. It's so.
True, It's so true. And they certainly have injected
a massive amount of cash. So, you know, Fast forward, how

(51:23):
long did you stay there? A couple years, couple years,
yeah. And so since that time, did did
you like retire after that or did you just kind of chill out
for a while And did did Fisher Technical State continue?
No, basically Tate kind of folded Fisher technical

(51:45):
employees and OK here and everything into Tate and
Navigator obviously got pushed forward into being the the Tate
sort of flagship yeah automationsystem.
But yeah, I I took some time offafter that and wandered around
the country. Good for you.

(52:06):
Which was nice and. What are what are like the
passions that you pursued when you when you left Tate and and
took some time off? Like what?
What do you do to? Probably the most fun thing I
did was I took a 10 month 40,000mile road trip to all 50 States
and I think 7 Canadian provincesand a 50 year old sports car.

(52:30):
No. Tiny, Really.
Yeah. What kind of car?
A 1967 Datsun roadster. Oh my God, you could have picked
something a little more comfortable, like an escalator.
Or something. I actually thought about that.
I was like, I should get like a drunk and like, you know what's
going to make this trip interesting?
It's a more fun story. Tiny a tiny little car that I've

(52:50):
got to keep running for this entire that's.
Awesome. That was great.
You weren't married, Obviously. No.
Yeah, because I can't see a wifegoing along with that play.
Honey, here's what we're going to do for 10 months.
So. So how did that go?
Was it as cool as you expected or did it?
It was. Cooler.
Cooler than I expected. I sort of discovered right at

(53:14):
the beginning of the trip that Iwas way more burned out than I
thought I was. Yeah.
Like once I had actually stoppedand I didn't have to answer 200
emails a day and. I got the phone.
Ringing constantly the the yeah,I was.
I was in worse shape than I thatI had actually realized.
How long did it take you to get out of that?

(53:34):
Because like I've had different.Friends that trip, really the
whole trip, yeah, yeah, I, I wastired of people when I started
and just generally interacting with other humans and figured I
would like to take off and leave.
But I met so many great, cool, generous people out on that trip
because like, driving that car on that trip is sort of like

(53:56):
travelling with a puppy. Like everybody wants to come up
and pet. It, you know, kind of thing.
So you just meet people, see that organically and by the time
the trip was done, I was pretty much cleansed and and ready for
dinner. Life.
At least tell me you stayed in hotels and you didn't have just.
Like a couple. We can't just start.
Oh, really? Oh yeah.
I had a tent in the back of the back of the car and drove that

(54:18):
car places it should not have gone, like these long dirt roads
in the desert. You know, like just doing really
foolish things. But then it was great.
That's wild. What were what were some of the
cooler places that you saw? Because like when, when you say
I saw all 50 states, I went to all 50 states.
People don't realize that's a big deal.

(54:40):
Like, you know, I've lived in the United States since 1991.
I haven't been to all 50 states,you know, in in 30 some odd
years. But yeah, that's that's kind of
a big deal. So what what were some of the
really like? What were some of the really
super memorable states or thingsthat you didn't expect or.

(55:03):
I, I had never seen Yellowstone before and that was unbelievably
amazing and just sort of the vast tracts of land in the
Midwest, you know, and they say amber waves of grain.
They they mean it, you know, it's.
Well, have we ever been to upstaging?

(55:24):
Oh yeah, I. Remember the first time I went
to their their new shop, which they've been in now for what, 20
years? Almost.
The first time I went to the shop, we didn't have NAV yet.
And so it was like you go to, you know, you'll see the higher
stacks of corn and you turn right at that.

(55:45):
And then you go to the third Main Street, not the 1st 2:00
but they go to the third Main Street, make a left there.
You know, I mean it was just like the directions were, you
know, and then you'll pass a green barn and then a red one.
And once you pass the red 1, as soon as the grass gets shorter
again, you turn there. You know, it was wild that the
instructions and it was just driving through a maze of corn

(56:06):
fields and stuff, you know? But a really cool.
Town where upstaging is, though.For sure, I kept a kept A blog
for the trip, primarily for my nieces and nephews to kind of
see what I was up to. But then that's cool.
Some of my sports car buddies kind of got onto it.
So it became kind of a thing. And then as I traveled around,

(56:27):
people would e-mail it and be going, Hey, you're going to be
in my neighborhood, you know, sometime you can keep stay at my
house and that's cool and that kind of thing.
So the blog's the blog's still up, which I still get mail about
and stuff, which is is cool. That's cool.
That's really cool. And so like the sleeping under
the stars thing, obviously you just sold your company.
You weren't broke, so it wasn't like you were, you were trying

(56:48):
to save money. You just wanted to really be
like a naturalist kind of thing or?
It's kind of my happy place. You know, I, I, I really don't
like going to fancy restaurant or fancy hotels with spas and,
and then that kind of stuff. I like to kind of like fit a
little. If I leave Las Vegas, I like
taking off into the middle of Nevada, where like there's no

(57:10):
other humans. Yeah, I can understand that.
Like especially when you live ina nutty place like Las Vegas,
you know, it's why wouldn't you want to get away?
You know, I'm, I'm from Calgary and I, I grew up spending
virtually every weekend in in the mountains and about 20 years
ago I built a house in in Canmore.

(57:31):
I don't know if you know where that is, but yeah, between
Calgary and Banff, right next toBanff.
And I still have that and I go there, I actually leave in a
couple weeks and I'm there for the summer every year.
And that's. Beautiful.
But even that, like I have this unbelievable view of the
mountains, both, both sides of my house, really not a lot of
houses around me and stuff. But even that, it's nice to get

(57:52):
away from that to where there's no houses at all and no like
light pollution and no nothing, you know?
Yeah, stars right down to the horizon.
I just love it. I love it so much.
And the the Northern Lights, I mean like last summer, the
Northern Lights were going crazyfor a couple of weeks.
It was like everything in Pennsylvania.
Did you really? Oh, yeah, same time around that,

(58:13):
same. I remember they were in like was
it England or something that wasseeing Northern Lights?
Way, way South. Yeah, really nutty.
Like people all over weird places were seeing the Northern
Lights last year. It was.
It was a strange phenomenon. Yeah.
So did you went back to work at some point, like after this 10

(58:34):
months? Yeah.
I mean, I didn't, I didn't sort of voluntarily like I didn't, I
didn't go looking for it, but I started getting phone calls from
past clients and people I'd worked with and before who knew?
I was kind of in the wind, I guess.
So I did a few little projects here and there.

(58:55):
And some of those projects were with stunt coordinators that I'd
worked with on movie projects. Because part of one of the, one
of the, one of the cool projectsor products that FTSI made was
these really high speed, high strength, life safety qualified

(59:16):
winches that that the sun community uses a lot and for all
kinds of stuff like they've donehundreds of movies.
So I started doing a little bit of that again, because the movie
projects worked well for me because they were typically
pretty short term. And when they were done, they
were done. Like there was no getting a call
back to come fix a piece of gearbecause I was all in the

(59:38):
dumpster at that point. Yeah.
But yeah, the fun, the fun part of that is it's still the same
gear. Like I just last week wrapped on
Supergirl in London and we're still using the same witches
that I was that we built 22 years ago now, I guess something
like that. Wild.

(59:58):
So do you have to go back to Tate and license your own
software from them? No, basically I just tell
production, call Tate and get this gear and that the gear
shows up on one side and I show off on the other side.
That's wild. Off we go.
You think they'd at least give you a system or something so
that you could rent it out and and make a little revenue on it?
But yeah, that's that's really. So you've been doing a bunch of

(01:00:20):
movies? Basically, yeah, that's that's
I've done a few other smaller jobs with like Disney and people
like that for like little consulting things.
But the bulk of the the actual work I've been doing has been in
the movie. World So if if somebody came and
said hey, you know, we're building this huge automation
shop or whatever and we want youto come in and run it, you're 0

(01:00:41):
interest. I have not much interest in that
at the moment. Yeah, yeah, I like, I like to
know it basically at least now go take off to those places you
know that I like to be. Good for you.
Yeah. Good for you.
Yeah. I mean, it's lifestyle choices
and it's it's all important. You know, one of the things I
forgot to talk about, I was I actually want to share my screen

(01:01:04):
because I thought this was so cool when I looked at it.
Hang on. I got to see if I can find it.
There it is. Yeah, yeah.
This. And that's a fun project.

(01:01:26):
I mean, one of the things that blew me away about this video.
So these are all each on individual motors.
Are each of these balls on individual motors?

(01:01:46):
Yes. Yeah. 2008 I think.
Tiny little witches. Jesus.
I mean it's very cool people canlook this up.
They can just search for. Sorry the audio is overwhelming
you a little bit. Oh yeah.

(01:02:07):
All right, let me kill it. Stop sharing.
Sorry that that the background audio was like overwhelming you
a bit there. Yeah, yeah.
You know, one of the really coolthings about that that I noticed
is you had 1400 followers on your YouTube page, but 600,000
views of that video. Like I was like, yeah, what?

(01:02:31):
And a lot of your, a lot of yourvideos were like that.
Like you had a lot of views on alot of your videos just because
they were so cool like that. Yeah, we did some cool stuff.
The world's color stuff for just.
David's Nate. Yeah, that particular video, it
goes on and on and on. And I actually remember seeing
it like 15 years ago or 10 yearsago or whenever it was and being
blown away then. And I just looked it up again

(01:02:53):
and I, I went, wow, that's really, really nice.
Like now, you know, it's funny because I was watching it.
My girlfriend walked in and said, oh, what's that?
A drone show? And I said no, no, this is way
before. Drone.
Yeah, yeah. So.
Tate Tate actually used that technology again on the Red Hot
Chili Peppers tour with that bigoverhead thing with the I think

(01:03:17):
they had long skinny pieces withlights in them, but same, same
deal basically. Yeah, yeah, it's a really cool
look. Yeah, the the position on all of
those objects is mapped to pixels in a video, really.
So it's. Like you're laying on your back
on the stage watching it. You'd be seeing a video.
Pretty much, yeah. I mean, because instead of

(01:03:40):
trying to program each one of those individually, which would
have been a nightmare, we've basically just mapped the
position of the object to a grayscale value from a black and
white video. So blacks all the way up, whites
all the way down, and the transition between then
determines the speed of the piece.
So you can basically just pump video into the system and it

(01:04:01):
would just do whatever. So if you did a gradient, you
get a get an angle. If you do a water droplet, you
get that, you know. Wow, that's really cool.
What a great idea. What was that?
Was that just an exhibit or was that part?
Of that, yeah, just an exhibit at the Shanghai World Expo.
OK, Yeah, really cool. Yeah, our client had seen there

(01:04:22):
was a, there was a very similar installation in Germany for BMW
where these little spheres get down and did the shape of a car
basically in our client in Japan, Muriyama had seen that.
And they're like, we want that, but bigger and cooler.
Can you guys do it? And we're like, probably so,
yeah. That's super cool.

(01:04:42):
So since that time, like since since you know, after your, your
dots and drive and everything else and you've been doing
movies and stuff, but you've also gotten involved with, with
some other stuff too, right? Like I think you were saying
earlier, before we started recording, you were telling me
that you were part of the the Rihanna thing at the Super Bowl,

(01:05:04):
which I thought was unbelievable.
One of the the so I'll occasionally get calls for short
term projects like that where it's like, hey, are you busy
then B, do you want to do this? And one of my former employees,
Paul Sapsis from Sapsis Rigging.Yeah, originally his dad and

(01:05:28):
uncle had that extremely talented rigger designer that
was his basically his baby was Super Bowl and he called and
said, hey, are you are you busy?Do you want to come do this
Super Bowl thing? And I'm like, that sounds great.
I've never been to a Super Bowl.So fine, basically went and
helped out with that. Not to mention how cool that

(01:05:50):
was. Like it's really cool.
I am certainly not a Rihanna fanand I don't generally like most
of the halftime shows, but that one just because of the
platforms looked looked. Great.
With the with the early 5 wires,they looked like they were
floating. Yeah.
Well, and the amount of safety that had to be involved too, for
a woman who's whatever she was seven months pregnant or

(01:06:11):
something at the time, you know,like just wild.
That was such a beautiful show. It really, really looked
incredible. Yeah, Tate did a nice job
managing that whole thing as well.
That was a that was a fairly large team to pull it off.
So has like you said, it's weirdthat you go back and do shows
now and all the gear is still the same.

(01:06:34):
Is there not any kind of evolution or or motion forward
in the technology for that? There is for sure.
The the stunt, the stunt movie gear is mostly not involved much
because it's a tiny, tiny, tiny market.
So there's not a lot of incentive to really develop new

(01:06:54):
gear for that because it's not going to make a lot of money.
But the, the basics of Navigatorhave not really changed at all,
but some of the, the newer developments in it and newer
stuff has has pushed on and a lot of a lot of it's driven by
the availability of better industrial equipment.

(01:07:16):
So you're still, you know, like you're not building your own
motors and you're not building your own motor drives and
amplifiers for that. But the, the power density of
server motors is really like youcan get way more power in a much
smaller package. Now direct drive motors as
opposed to motors with gearboxesare dead silent had much more
responsive. So those improvements, Navigator

(01:07:40):
having sort of the innate ability to control essentially
anything that moves, the improvements in in the
availability of motors, actuators, controllers,
mechanical gear and marrying that with Navigator has has
really UPS UPS the the game on that end.
Have you been involved at all aslike an advisor or anything on

(01:08:02):
this sort of board or committee that advances Navigator?
Do they ever bring you in as an advisor?
No, That's interesting. Now do they figure I'm out in
the middle of the woods somewhere?
I think. Yeah, yeah.
They don't want to drag you backfrom a mountain.
And so like what are you seeing any kind of new trends or or

(01:08:25):
technology or anything that's exciting you like being that
you're an electrical engineer and you've created some really
cool things in our industry, specifically in show business,
Are you seeing any new trends oror just advancements that are
pretty exciting? I've I've seen, I've seen more
in the way of opportunity that I've seen in the way of actual

(01:08:47):
advancement. The but the current, the current
state-of-the-art is pretty good,even though the current
state-of-the-art is still largely the same as it was 10
years ago, with the, with the exception of, you know, some
better, some better tire performing equipment.
Yeah. I mean, we, we basically built

(01:09:09):
Navigator with the intention of we should be able to run the
biggest surf distillation on theplanet.
One of the what's the toolkit that we need for that?
And it's a really good toolkit. It doesn't.
It doesn't need that much more than it than it has.
So there's not a ton of incentive to to push the

(01:09:30):
envelope beyond that. But there are definitely
opportunities to do it that haven't been explored yet.
So it'll be interesting to see if those opportunities get
pursued. Yeah, the future.
Do do you think AI will ever sneak into into automation, even
just figuring out some of those,the rules, you know, getting

(01:09:52):
involved in, in the rules standpoint, like here's what
we're looking to do, What are some potential problems?
I don't think so, because there's not enough data to teach
an AI system how to do it. Yeah.
There's not. There's not enough of a data set
to actually educate an AI in that.
There's AI being used like within like the CAD software.

(01:10:15):
Like if you open SolidWorks Inventor and you use their
optimization tools, that's essentially AI.
So there's a lot of that going on on the back end.
But as far as the actual show stuff, there's just not enough
data for an AI to learn it. Yeah, it just feels like, you
know, to me, a math equation almost like where you could say,
you know, we're doing something in this physical space.

(01:10:36):
Here's the general dimensions, here's what we're doing within
those dimensions. Here's the, the humans that are
going to be involved on these platforms or different areas,
you know, tell me the complications, you know, tell
me, Tell me the, the you know, where we're going to bump our
head, Hopefully not literally. So no, not really.

(01:10:57):
Like most of that stuff is probably it.
Could be me being, you know, to,to use the name of the podcast.
A geezer. Yeah, yeah.
Well, me too. But you know, and I'm not super
well versed in, in, in AI, but yeah, I know you can get a large
data set to educate an AI to be able to enable it to make

(01:11:19):
decisions. So you would have had to have
fed it a ton of show data for itto know OK, well for this show
you should do this and that datajust doesn't really exist.
Yeah, so there's another way like in the intro.
And I use this a lot when I'm, I'm having strategic discussions
with AI. And because I, I use AI more,

(01:11:40):
not like a lot of people use AI because they want to maybe get
lazier, like they want it to do the hard work that they don't
want to do or write all this stuff that I don't want to have
to write myself, but I'll use itfrom a strategic or decision
making standpoint. And so I've just learned this
Socratic method and I was just talking about it on the intro

(01:12:01):
too. And the Socratic method is
basically saying, OK, I'm designing this automation system
for X show. And here are some of the
complications that we're dealingwith.
And, you know, I want to make itcompletely foolproof.
What questions do you need to ask me in order for me to

(01:12:22):
provide you as much information as I can to make sure that we're
not putting people in danger or we're not hitting limits or
we're not, you know, whatever those complications might be.
And then it'll just start askingyou questions.
And you're saying, well, that's a good question.
I think it's going to be 14 feet.
And you just keep feeding it information.

(01:12:43):
Then eventually it just spits out this huge document and
you're like, wow, you know the the, I'll tell you, the output
that I've gotten from that method of prompting is
unbelievable. I should give it a try.
Yeah, let's talk play with it a little bit.
Yeah, and if you want any adviceon it, like just go into ChatGPT

(01:13:03):
or Grok or whatever you use and just say tell me how to use the
Socratic method in prompting you.
I want to write Socratic method prompts to get you to be more
productive. And it'll tell you exactly what
you need to do. And really it's just about
having it ask you lots and lots of questions.
And it becomes more of a collaboration between you and a

(01:13:25):
really cool tool that might not know initially a lot about what
exactly you're doing unless you've told it that.
So like if you say, hey, I did ashow that was this and this and
this, and here's the problems weencountered and here's how we
solved them. All of these systems now have
memory, so it remembers all of that stuff.
And so when you bring in a new problem, it'll go, hmm, yeah,

(01:13:45):
didn't we talk about that before?
So using that information, plus what you're telling me today,
here's what I can tell you. Sure.
So yeah, I'm having a ball with AI right now because it's just,
it's making me less stupid as opposed to making me less busy.
And actually it's making me morebusy because I love learning and
I love advancing and making cooler things and stuff.

(01:14:10):
So yeah, I'm having a blast withit.
But it's not getting me into thewoods though, unfortunately,
which is where I'd really ratherbe.
I'm really excited because I'm leaving in a few weeks and and,
you know, I still work and everything because it's my house
up there versus my house. It's like you going from there
to your house in Jersey or whatever.

(01:14:32):
But it's just the scenery and the feeling I get when I walk
outside and there's trees and coyotes and bears and whatever.
You know, you're in nature. It's it's just a different
thing. Yeah, it's really, really hard
to beat. I'm trying to think if there's
anything that I missed here. What did we miss?

(01:14:53):
I'm sure we missed something. Are you doing anything crazy fun
this year or are you working? I spent the first part of the
year over in London shooting thenew Supergirl movie, and prior
to that we wrapped up the new Superman movie.
So I've been doing Super People for like a year now, and that's

(01:15:13):
probably all like flying stuff and whatever, right?
Yeah. Flying performers, a lot of
stunt stuff, dropping people offof things and running people
into things. And.
Yeah, flinging stunt performers around, basically.
Yeah, the new the Superman trailer actually drops today, so
I got to go see what that looks like.
Cool. Yeah, I'll have to check that
out. Yeah, I think I know there was a

(01:15:33):
new Superman movie in the works.So yeah.
Who's Superman? David Cornsweat, No.
Not sure what else he did prior to that, but James Gunn from the
Guardians of the Galaxy Stuff OKis at the helm of DC now, so
that's the first big out of the gate.
Picture for interesting. Interesting.

(01:15:54):
Should be good. Yeah.
It's gotta be so much more stressful now making movies for
these guys, like blockbuster movies, because the distribution
model is so much different than it used to be, primarily because
of COVID, you know, and, and also the little screens, you
know, the the iPhones and stuff.Yeah, but you know, everything's
streaming now. So like, I know I haven't been

(01:16:16):
to a movie theater in a while. Like Top Gun.
I think the movies that you got to see in a theater in IMAX or
whatever, I'll usually go to those, but.
Yeah, I've really enjoyed the collaborative process on the
movie stuff because it's different than the live
entertainment because most of mybackground had been live
entertainment prior to that. But now we will coordinate with

(01:16:38):
the visual effects guys and we'll say, OK, well, you need
this beginning part of the stuntlive for a motion reference.
But then you're going to transition to a digital
performer that you're going to basically build from scratch and
just use us as a motion reference.
But then you need the end of this to be live because you need
to get the, the, the performers face in the picture.

(01:17:00):
So we'll coordinate with those guys to be like, how much of
this, what do you guys need to, to handle for the VFX side
versus what do we need from the stunt side?
We'll coordinate with the set designers of like this part
needs to be a breakaway. This part needs to be soft.
This part I need the roof flown out on this building because we
need to come in with wires and knowing that you don't have a

(01:17:25):
live audience looking at it, you've got a whole different set
of rules of like what can you see?
What can't you see? What what lens are we going to
use on this? How wide are we shooting this?
It's, it's really fun. Actually, it's a whole new sort
of. Are you sitting with like the
the like stunt people or, or theDP or like who's who's

(01:17:46):
explaining to you what the the scene is?
The DP, the visual effects supervisor, the art director,
slash set designer, stunt coordinators, and they're sort
of different types of stuff. Like there's if there's a lot of
driving and like if you're doinga Fast and Furious, they'll be a
driving coordinator that has no idea what we do with the wire
stuff. But then they'll be a ring

(01:18:07):
coordinator who knows more with the wire you.
Know that's but like how how much are you involved in in like
so will they say we want a guy to fly from here to here in
seven seconds and he needs to bedoing, you know, this type of
like, I mean, they'll talk to the performer about what whether

(01:18:29):
he needs to move this way or that way or whatever.
But is it kind of like that or is it?
Yeah, it varies. Like on the on the bigger
superhero things, they'll do animatics previous basically.
So we'll see if he's got a cartoon of what they want up to
the full on director going. Can you guys do something cool
here? You know, and we'll come up with
something like on the on the spot, you know, where we grab a

(01:18:50):
stunt performer that we know hasthis acrobatic skills or
whatever. I'm like, hey, can you do this?
We're going to do a thing. And you know, so it's everything
from we know exactly what we want to we got to fill up 150
frames of film here with something cool, you know.
Yeah. Wow, that's cool.
So sometimes you actually get tosit down with, you know, with
your thinking cap on and go, Oh yeah, what what can we do here?

(01:19:12):
This is really interesting. Yeah, it's not just a.
Same old boring flying person across the stage or whatever.
No, it's it's a good time. Yeah.
Were you involved on what? Was it not Superman, Spider Man
in on Broadway, The Jerry Harristhing?
Yeah, we did all the performer flying.
Oh wow, a lot of that. That was Anton on that.

(01:19:36):
Yeah, there was a lot of that. God, they spent money on that.
Show that. Was a that was a that was an
amazing system and it's kind of a shame that it got a bunch of
bad breasts for all the wrong reasons, but.
Yeah, it did. Yeah, landing a guy in the
aisles and on the balconies and it was, you know, live was we

(01:19:59):
were, we were proud, we were proud of that.
And it was a shame that we couldn't really town it as much
as we did because. It just didn't last long enough
to be too exciting. What about Cirque du Soleil?
Like, you did a bunch of stuff with them, right?
Yes. Or just.
Yeah, a lot. Yeah, I did a bunch of stuff
with them early, like on O building the theater and the

(01:20:23):
stair and that kind of stuff. And then later Cirque has been
gradually transitioning everything to navigator, even
the older systems in the older theaters.
So Cirque's basically a navigator client now.
Like like like Disney's and the other big guys, that's how they
do their automation now. So yeah, yeah, we were involved

(01:20:43):
with a bunch of those retrofits.And was Sirk like similarly,
were you involved in some of thecreative process and stuff or
were they just like put this here, do this and then get out
of the way or? I was involved in a lot of the
creative process earlier in my career when I was when I was
more in the project management. Yeah.

(01:21:03):
Later when we were more of a vendor to them, they basically
told us what they wanted. Yeah, they had people on their
team that that managed that sideof it, yeah.
You know, it was, it was a collaboration, but it was not as
much of a clean sheet as it would have been being part of
the actual cert team. Yeah, I get it.
I completely get it. So when do you leave on your

(01:21:23):
next journey? I'd say about a month or so.
I'll probably I have a friend who's doing some Backcountry
guiding in Alaska this summer, so I want to go and do a little
visit and maybe have a couple ofold adventures out there.
Wow, that's cool. Yeah, I've been to a Nuvik.
I I played in a band in my earlyyears and we got a call from

(01:21:47):
from our agent during one of ourrehearsals.
It wasn't even an agent. I think it was an agent.
It wasn't our agent because we hadn't even put our name out yet
or anything. We were just rehearsing and they
said, hey, we got this gig, it'sfor, for 14 or 16 weeks in the
same club. And we went, OK, we'll take it.

(01:22:07):
And well, don't you want to knowhow much you'll make?
Yeah, yeah. How much will we make?
It's 3500 a week or whatever, right?
We said, OK, we'll take it. And so we're like all excited
and stuff. And then he calls us back and he
goes, by the way, what's your band called?
And we didn't have a name yet. We were just rehearsing.
So we we had a bottle of Silhouette Vodka in the center

(01:22:27):
of the table, and we said, Silhouette, we're called
Silhouette. And he went, OK.
And so then they hung up again and we called him back and said,
hey, where's this gig? And he says Anuvik.
And we're like, where's that? Where?
Yeah, where's Anuvik? And he goes, oh, don't worry
about it, we'll talk about that later.
I mean, it's like at the top of the friggin world, you know?

(01:22:47):
I've driven that road from Dawson City, although we have to
talk through Anuvik and you basically run out of Canada.
You went to Takhta Yakhta? Yeah.
Wow. Yeah, cuz that was what, like 60
miles or something past Anuvik? Or 40 miles or something.
Yeah, because so the the place we played at in Anuvik was just
a Tavern in a hotel, right? And people would come in on the

(01:23:10):
weekends from Tuk Toyak Tuk because Tuk was Tuk Tuk was dry.
I don't know if it still is, butat the time it was dry.
So they'd come in and party likeanimals on the weekend, all the
people working the oil rigs and stuff and, and it'd just be nuts
there. Like we had so much fun for
about the first five or six weeks and then it was just like,

(01:23:32):
oh God, can we please about. In the middle of the tundra with
nothing. Well.
I mean, first we get there, there's no air conditioning in
our hotel and it's sunny 24 hours.
Of course, you know, because it was late June when we got there.
So it's light out. And there's these Ravens that
are as big as freaking, you know, humans practically.
And they sit on your window ledge and they're, they're just

(01:23:54):
going right, making this loud noise and you can't sleep.
And, you know, it's bright and sunny and it's hot in your room.
And so like then we started meeting people and they take you
water skiing after the gig. Like at two or three in the
morning, you'd go out water skiing because it's still light
out. And or we went, there was a guy
and when I look back, it wasn't the smartest decision, but this

(01:24:17):
guy would drink in the bar at night while we were playing and
then he'd go, hey guys, you wantto go out fishing, float plane
fishing. And we're like, OK, sure.
You know. So now we're going with a drunk
pilot landing on some lake and, and fishing for lake trout,
which was really cool. I mean they had like friggin

(01:24:38):
2530 LB lake trout there. And fishing's great up there.
That's crazy. It's just wild.
So yeah, it was, it was one of the more weird experiences of my
life, but it was somewhere between amazing and horrific all
at once. That's the best experiences are
right? Yeah, but I've never spoken to
somebody who said yeah, Oh yeah,I drove that highway and went up

(01:25:00):
to Tuck Toyota Tech or the the ICE Rd., which is only open for,
you know, so much of the year or.
What? I was up there in the summer
too, where I was dailing all thetime and you see all the
abandoned snowmobiles along the road from the.
Winters Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and so we drove a school bus
because after we got this gig, we went and bought a yellow
school bus and painted it and and cleared out all the seats so

(01:25:23):
we could put our gear in it because that's what you did back
then. And we drove up there in a
school bus, a converted school bus.
And it was funny because back then I smoked weed.
And so we bought like a pound ofthis Hawaiian something or other
weed. And we were like, OK, yeah, this
will last US 16 weeks. It was gone by the time we got

(01:25:44):
to a new bit because what else were you going to do, you know?
And and yeah, so that was quite an experience.
So Alaska will be cool. Yeah, yeah, I've been up before.
There were a couple there. Last time I was up there, there
were some big wildfires. So there were places I wanted to
go that yeah, either you couldn't get to or the the smoke
was so bad and it wasn't worth going kind of thing.

(01:26:06):
Yeah, yeah. So I'm hoping it's a little
nicer this year. Well if you're ever going
through Banff again, look me up and and stop in for a coffee or
a beer or whatever. Say hello because I'm I'm up
there pretty much all summer every year now but like from May
or June until October ish. Yeah.
Well, when I if, if I, if this trip does pan out, I'll, I'll be

(01:26:29):
coming up through that so I can.Show Yeah, yeah, absolutely do
so and and you know, I'm my house is just very close to the
highway. So, you know, you could just pop
in and have a beverage or adult beverage, whichever you prefer
and say hello and and have a nice view of the mountains
before you drive through them. So you're going to drive up,

(01:26:51):
you're going to drive to a last.Oh yeah, you are a madman.
Yeah, I like a good round trip. Do you?
Yeah. My my my my sort of Backcountry
off it is. I've got a Toyota Tacoma out of
the rack and I bring a tent and I throw a kayak up on the rack
and take off, basically. And it's so cool.

(01:27:12):
By yourself, yeah. And you meet people along the
way and. That is so awesome.
Hang out. Yeah, it's really awesome.
It's it's I didn't realize how different it was to travel that
way. Like usually people go on
vacation and they go to places, but they've got two weeks or
they've got whatever. But traveling where you don't

(01:27:32):
really have a destination or a schedule, yeah, is wildly
different. It's like, oh, this place is
cool, I'll just stay here for a few more days.
Or, you know, somebody at the bar tells you about this cool
thing to go see over there and you just go over there and spend
a couple days. I'm very envious of you because
that that to me sounds incredible.
Like that may really sounds incredible.
I don't know that I didn't. Realize how cool it was till I

(01:27:54):
did it. I don't know that I could do it
by myself. I'd have to convince either my
girlfriend or my son to to roughit with me for for a while.
But I mean, just the whole concept of, you know, hey, I
like it here. I'm going to stay an extra week.
That is amazing to me. Like, that just never happens
because everything's so structured and scheduled.
In my life, you know, ridiculously lucky to be able

(01:28:16):
to, to travel. Like that what I want.
Yeah, you are. That's so cool.
And so when you go though, do you make plans?
Like do you say, OK, I'm going to go here and then here and
then here And like, do you have an entire plan or?
Do you? Not really.
Usually it's just I have a general direction like on this.
If I go to Alaska, I know I'll need to end up where my friend
is, and I'll kind of look at a map and go, oh, that looks cool,

(01:28:38):
or I haven't been there yet or whatever, and I'll connect the
dots and yeah, usually I get sidetracked halfway through and
go somewhere else that I wasn't planning on going, you know?
Well, I mean, if you love nature, there's so many
beautiful places to go on the way and.
And also while you're there. And yeah, yeah.
Northern BC is amazing. And oh, it really is.
It really is. It's beautiful.

(01:28:59):
Northern Alberta is a dump. You know, it's just oil wells
and Fort McMurray, which is not my favorite place to the ground,
right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did actually
a few years ago and Jasper last year.
Yeah, Oh yeah, Jasper. Jasper was terrible last year.
I mean, it's, it's I, I haven't been back there yet, but I hear

(01:29:21):
it's, you know, pretty back, like a lot of it's back.
But yeah, it was terrible last year when Jasper burned.
We had some very nasty days in Canmore where the smoke was just
blowing straight through from there.
But it got me thinking and calling my insurance company and
saying, what if, you know, am I?Covered to this.

(01:29:42):
Well, because, I mean, we're basically in the woods and we're
in a wooden house, you know, and, and at the end of the day,
bad things can happen. So, yeah, it got me thinking for
sure, even though I've had this house for 20 years.
But yeah, well, I appreciate youtaking the time.
This has been educational for meand and enjoyable too.
I'd rather sit and talk about your, your Backcountry stuff

(01:30:05):
than than light automation. Yeah, no, but I didn't know
anything about automation. So I love learning new things.
So I, I definitely appreciate you sharing that.
And good luck on your trip. And seriously, if you ping me,
if you do go through. Yeah, for sure.
Yeah. I've got friends in Calgary that
I usually visit on the way, so that's right next to her, yeah.

(01:30:26):
Yeah, well, I was born in a little tiny town outside of
Calgary, but I grew up in Calgary since I was, I don't
know, 5 or 6. So yeah.
Calgary. The Calgary friends are actually
from the Datsun trip. Oh really?
He's a fellow Datsun owner and just dropped me a random e-mail
going hey you can come stay at my house if you want.
Like I'd never met the dude before.
We've been training. We've been finals now for for 12

(01:30:47):
years. So that's really cool.
That's, you know, that's the cool thing about being in those
sort of passion club kind of things, whether it's cars or
whatever. The matter or?
Something it's like, yeah, exactly.
You're a good guy. Stay in my house.
I don't know you, but. Yeah, it you know, it's funny
because younger people now like my son is just turned 21 and my

(01:31:08):
sister has a 240Z that is probably, I don't know what year
it even is 80 something. Yeah, I think it's an 80
something. I'm not sure though.
But it's a it's a Nissan. It's not a Datsun and anyways my

(01:31:28):
son wants it. So he, he's like working her on
it. Like you don't drive that thing
anymore. Like what are you going to do
with it? You know, cuz he's, he's just
old school, you know, he doesn'twant like a new sports car, he
wants an old one. Like even vets, he doesn't want
AC-8 vet, he wants AC 6 vet or AC-5 vet.
So yeah, anyways, all right, Scott.

(01:31:50):
Well, thank you so much and goodluck to you on your travels.
And I hope to see you at some point.
And Sarah will be in touch letting you know when this
episode launches and stuff. It'll be in a week or so.
OK, sounds good. Cool.
Have a good one, all right. All right, take care.

All Episodes

#312 - Scott Fisher - Pirate ships, automation systems, construction, collaboration and experiences

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Cold Case Files: Miami

Dateline NBC

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#312 - Scott Fisher - Pirate ships, automation systems, construction, collaboration and experiences