#322 - Chance Stahlhut - Navigating the Future of Live Events - Geezers of Gear

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I think in any good organization, you know, your CEO
is leading that vision and it says this is what's important to
me and this is a culture and this is the direction I want to
go. And in my position and anybody
else in the C-Suite, our job is to kind of go execute that.
And then there's things that we're working on.
You know, they did this roll up in the concert stuff and it's
been a little over a year, but we kind of rolled all this in

(00:23):
and, you know, they started the board and, and took all these
companies and brought them in and we started some acquisition.
So a lot of the stuff that we'redoing is all the back end stuff
that I know anyway. Like that was the thing of like,
you know, all right, well, you know, some of these things
coming from other companies. So like, you know, we're going
to go work on IT. We're going to go work on HR
payroll, how we do contracting, insurance.

(00:45):
These are not things that like, you know, we don't need to waste
the time in a meeting to sit there and be like, well, what,
how, what do you want to do here?
That's the role of it. And I think then, you know, we
try to all strategically look atfuture opportunities.

(01:27):
Hey, welcome and thanks for joining me here again on Geez of
Gear. So today first I want to talk
about a couple deals that have just been done in our industry.
And so first and foremost, the deal that has lingered for more
than a year now. I actually remember at one point
last year, you know, people saying that it's got to get done

(01:50):
by June 1st. And if it doesn't, you know,
then it's going into bankruptcy and all kinds of crazy things
like that. And here we are a year later in
August of 2025 and the four walldeal has just been announced.
And I'm not sure the real details of the deal.

(02:12):
You know, it put some sketchy details in the press release, or
I should say limited details in the press release, making it a
point that they are keeping their management team in place,
which is a good thing, I guess for the, you know, stability of
the company to keep people happy, to keep people feeling
motivated or whatever, the staffespecially.

(02:35):
So that's a good thing. And but they didn't mention much
about, you know, sort of the structure of the deal.
And I guess the devil's in the details, but looks like a debt
deal, you know, I'm sure, you know, they're not buying it to
hold it forever. So it looks to me like some sort

(02:55):
of a turn around deal where they're coming in and they're
going to improve EBITDA and improve the numbers and improve
the books and then flip it for more money in another year or
two. That would be my guess anyways,
but I'm just speculating at thispoint.
So I don't have any inside information on that or anything.
So congratulations to Four Wall and the team at 4 Wall and their
customers and especially their vendors who now have, I think

(03:19):
some stability and and feeling, you know better about, you know,
making big deals with four wall and getting paid and stuff.
So great news and I think it's great for the industry.
You don't want that sort of unknown or instability in in an
industry like ours, especially from one of the largest
companies out there and in news just this morning.

(03:43):
So by the time you hear this, it'll be old news, but Claire
Brothers or Claire Global are continuing to make moves and
they have purchased friends of ours Clearwing.
And so congratulations to Greg Brunclick and family who have
made this deal with Claire. Congratulations to Claire for
getting a great company with, with a great attitude, great

(04:05):
gear, great history. I think from 1976, if I remember
correctly, you can hear Greg Brunclick talking about that
stuff on 2 episodes of Gears of Gear in the past.
So again, congratulations to both teams on a an excellent
deal, great company etcetera. And I think Claire Global is
also a great company with obviously a pretty big war chest

(04:27):
of, of acquisition funds in play.
And so we're going to see I'm sure more deals from them in the
future. So that's good news.
I wanted to jump into AAI just for a second here and talk a
little bit about AI. As you know, I'm building a
business around AI. We have got huge experience in

(04:50):
it. Now I know more about AI than I
think most people do in our industry.
And I'm not bragging. It's something that I've been
passionate about for the last couple of years.
And now I'm head first into it, spending literally hundreds of
thousands of dollars building product in AI.
And so I've learned a lot and I'm really looking forward to

(05:11):
launching this product in a, in a little over a month, actually
right at about a month. Now, September 2nd is sort of a
soft launch, but it is a launch,it'll be a live launch on
September 2nd. And so, yeah, I'm, I'm looking
forward to that, looking forwardto showing everyone what we've
built. And we've got some deals on
right now for signing up early. We have signed on some clients

(05:34):
into a product that doesn't exist yet, which is great, but
I'm happy to kind of show you upour skirt if it's something that
you'd be interested in. So get involved early.
We are showing some deep love toto the people getting in early.
And so one of the things I've been hearing a lot more about is
how close we're getting to this self improving AGI, artificial

(05:57):
general intelligence or super intelligence even, which I think
is still a few years out. But basically we're talking
about AI that that develops or grows itself, that codes itself,
you know, AI that is, is teaching itself how to grow.
And so how can you protect yourself or your business

(06:18):
against AI that's development developing itself now and
getting smarter on its own and it doesn't really need us in the
future. And so one thing, a few things
and some of these I'm copying from things that I've heard
recently, but some of it's just my own feelings.
But first of all, get real closeto AI.

(06:39):
Get friendly with AI instead of,you know, sort of pushing it
away like it doesn't exist or like it won't be a problem or
like it's not going to be a partof your life.
Get close to it. Don't be afraid of it, but
partner with it, become deeply involved with AI, understand it,
accept it, touch it, feel it andplay with it as much as you

(06:59):
possibly can. And yes, I'm talking about AI
here. And so yeah, just really, you
know, don't be afraid of it, be friendly with it and and become
very knowledgeable on AI. It's, you know, even if you hate
it, you know how your parents always taught you when, when you
were a kid, What is it? Get close to your friends, but

(07:21):
get closer to your enemies or something along those lines.
Secondly, personal relationships.
We know this in our industry. So personal networks, personal
relationships, company relationships and networks, not
just texting, not just sending AI written emails and stuff like
that, which I happen to hate. I, I am disgusted by the number

(07:43):
of AI emails even from, you know, people who either want a
job with me or are communicatingwith me as employees and they
want to raise or they want something and, and they're
sending me these AI written emails.
I despise them. I'd rather typos and, and, you
know, bad grammar and everythingelse in an e-mail than to see

(08:06):
something that's obviously written by AI.
But personal relationships, you know, I talked to people in the
touring business about this all the time.
You know, we've built careers onour relationships.
We've built careers on our networks.
Certainly I've built a podcast here on a network and on
relationships. And so, you know, that is your

(08:27):
value. Your value is in those personal
relationships and those deep connections with people, human
connection, not connection through or with AI, but human
connection and being compassionate, having compassion
for others, for other companies,for what people are going
through or what businesses are going through.
And you know, remember this, it's not going to be the

(08:50):
smartest who survive or who out think AI because AI is going to
be smart, smarter than all of us.
It's smarter than most of us already today, myself included.
But very soon it's going to be, we're talking about this year,
an IQ of over 250 with AI, whichmeans that it's smarter than any

(09:10):
human on Earth pretty much and and exponentially smarter than
most humans, you know, at least 2X smarter than most humans.
So, you know, it's not the smartest who survived, but it's
the people with the deepest and best and most connections who
will survive AI. And I truly believe that and

(09:32):
question everything, you know, So that's one of the things that
I've seen with people who are early stage getting into AI or
using ChatGPT or writing letterswith it or reading letters with
it or reading news articles, youknow, and it happens to me with
people around me who will come to me and say, did you hear that
Elon Musk is blah or Trump did this or Madonna did that or

(09:54):
whoever it is, some famous person did whatever.
And I would say a good 5 or 6 times out of 10, it's bullshit.
You know it, it's just made-up AI news.
You know, you see football players being traded, you see
drivers being demoted from F1 orhired on F1.
You see all kinds of things so and so, suing so and so.

(10:17):
And you know, a high percentage of this stuff, especially on
social media, is bullshit. And so question everything,
Cress question everyone. You know, when people come to
you and say, did you hear or youknow, I just read about this or
I know this is true. You know, it's beyond what used
to be false rumors and innuendo.Now it's actually written on

(10:41):
purpose to be false. And it's usually clickbait.
It's usually a way for these bottom feeders on social media
to be able to get more clicks and to get paid for it or become
more famous for it or whatever. Instagram famous.
So seek the truth and question everything.
And then finally, ethics, trust,truth is more important than

(11:04):
anything going forward. So magnify ethics AI
understands, make AI understand what it means to be human and
what it means to to be principled, what it means to be
trusted and prioritize those principles.
Prioritize ethical approaches orethical just a way of doing

(11:29):
business much more ethically. Prioritize that and and make it
a part of your statement. Make it a part of your actions.
Make it a part of your day. So yeah, that's how you survive
AI, in my opinion. So Two days podcast guest Chance
Stalhutt is the Chief Operating Officer of Concert Stuff Group

(11:53):
where he leads a growing family of specialized production and
logistics companies serving the live entertainment industry.
With a 25 plus year career that began in punk clubs and
international tours, Chance was held has held senior leadership
roles at Claire Global, VERPRG and Go West Creative.

(12:16):
His background spans touring, engineering, sales, operations,
an executive strategy making himuniquely equipped to scale
complex organizations while staying grounded in hands on
roduction realities. Chance is known for his people
first leadership style, belief in transparent communication and

(12:38):
advocacy for long term career growth within the industry.
At Concert Stuff Group, he's focused on strengthening team
structures, improving profitability without
sacrificing culture, and helpingleaders think more
strategically. So please, welcome Chance
Stalhutt. Chance, how are you?

(12:58):
I'm really good. How are you doing, Marcel?
You know, it's what day is it? Wednesday.
Tuesday. Tuesday, August 5th, yeah.
I don't even know what day it is.
So that's how I am. It's been like a week and a half
and we're only the second day inthe week so far.
So yeah, I'm, I'm in the processof building a new business on
top of our other business. And it's just so much learning

(13:21):
and so much technology and so much new stuff that I've never
experienced. Most people have never
experienced to be perfectly honest, because it's all AI.
Yeah. I mean, we've looked at your
demos and I think between just the decks, it's changed.
That's how fast it's been changed for you guys so much.
Like it's totally different now again.
So I mean, it's, it's just crazylike every literally every day

(13:42):
because our developers are in Vietnam.
And so we usually have a meetingat 9:00 or 10:00, my time here
in the mountains at night. And then, you know, while I'm
sleeping, they're basically completely changing everything.
So I never book demos for the first thing in the morning
because I have no idea what's going to blow up in my face when

(14:04):
I do it. I don't even know what I'm going
to see, so I'll usually do a couple tests in the morning if I
have to do a demo and just get re acquainted with whatever it
is we're offering. You know, I mean the core is the
same offer, of course, but it just keeps getting better.
Like we're just we're learning more, we're adding more.
We're, you know, just building more into it every day.

(14:25):
So it's it's pretty fun. It's exciting, but it's tiring.
Like you know, weekends are justsix and seven days of the work
week, so. Well, as you've built other
businesses, you know, you kind of knew the lift your head into,
but yeah, super looking forward to it.
Yeah, yeah, I know. It's it's fun and I appreciate
the support. So, you know, I got to admit

(14:46):
you're a guy I didn't know a huge amount about.
So I appreciate that you sent ussome notes that we could kind of
follow because sometimes I'm like, Oh yeah, I remember back
when you did so and so in the 80s or whatever.
But I didn't know what your background was prior to, to
reading the the bio that you provided us and the notes that
you provided us. So I appreciate you sending that

(15:07):
in. We have a, our, a mutual friend
of ours, John Wiseman was very, I, I mentioned talking to you
when we were looking at the demos and, and John was like,
oh, he's like, I love Marcel. And, and I had to go deep dive
and realize John's been on here a bunch.
And so that kind of prompted thewhole thing.
Well, and one of the great things about having someone like
John on is he just truly doesn'tgive a shit.

(15:28):
So he is 100% transparent on everything.
And we've had long talks about addiction and long talks about,
you know, a A and all the thingsthat he's been through and
almost dying and, you know, and partying.
We've had talks about that and, you know, just like talk about a
guy with a crazy, wacky career, you know, of, of just total

(15:51):
mayhem and like the last howevermany years, I mean, 30 of
sobriety. But you know, the last 10 or 15
years of his career have been just totally different because
he's so much calmer now and he'sso much more focused and less
angry, you know, because for a long time he definitely had some
anger in him. So he didn't want to be a
competitor to John, you know, 15years ago.

(16:14):
Today it's still hard, but it's not as anger filled, you know?
Yeah, no, he, he's very, he's a,he's a sweet guy.
He's been super kind to me over all the years.
And I mean, even in when I've seen him have bad days, I can't
say enough good things about that guy.
Yeah, yeah, I love John. He's one of my best friends, so
it's nice that he talks kindly about me too.

(16:35):
I like that. So tell me like, you know,
you've probably heard the podcast before you like you know
that I like to sort of start at the beginning.
So what found chance into this wacky industry that you're a
part of for so long now? This episode is brought to you
today by ETC Rigging. For 50 years, ETC has made a

(16:58):
name for itself in the world of entertainment technology.
You can find ETC products in buildings of every size across
the entire globe. Broadway shows, rock concerts,
sports stadiums, outdoor parks, TV studios and convention
centers, you name it. They have all trusted ETC to

(17:20):
make their spaces beautiful and safe.
Many of these spaces include rigging systems to keep them
running smoothly and safely. Fortunately, ETC Rigging offers
a range of hoists and controls to accommodate the unique needs
of various production spaces andbudgets.
Etcs, motorized hoists and hoistcontrol systems raise theatre

(17:42):
technology including stage curtains, lighting equipment,
backdrops, projection screens and more.
And the recent addition of Prodigy Balance, a new
counterweight rigging solution for loads up to 1200 lbs, brings
more options to venues looking for safe, user friendly rigging.

(18:03):
If you need backstage rigging that is easy to learn and safe
for students and volunteers to use, Prodigy Balance could be
the answer. ETC is known for its customer
support and 24/7 365 availability, but now employees
have even more of a personal stake in maintaining that
reputation. Because ETC has become 100%

(18:25):
employee owned, each person building the rigging systems,
developing the control software and answering support calls is
actually an owner at ETC. Outstanding support, reliable
products, innovative technologies.
This is the foundation of excellence ETC has built over
the past 50 years, and they planto deliver more in the next 50.

(18:48):
For the latest ETC products and installation news, visit
etcconnect.com. You know, so I got started.
I grew up in Alabama and I got started.
I was interested. I went to a very large church at
the time and happened to kind ofnotice, you know, the sound

(19:09):
booth and the cameras and got involved in that area and was
able to kind of, you know, go from there.
And I got really lucky. You know, I think it people that
are successful in this industry have multiple people across
different phases of your career take you under the wings.

(19:29):
And the guy that ran that whole division also was a professor of
journalism over to local university.
So he used to take me over thereand I got to edit on three
quarter machines and I learned in that aspect.
And we moved to Nashville and I got involved in playing with a
band, and I got a job at a localmusic store, Mars Music, back

(19:52):
when that was a shame. I knew what?
Was that guy Begelman, Mark Begelman?
I knew him well back in those days, yeah.
And the Nashville 1 was like very influential for them
because obviously Nashville Music City heavy in the
recording industry in the 90s. And so I got a job there to get
a discount on equipment and, youknow, ended up meeting a lot of

(20:15):
bands to go mix and got in the Nashville thing.
And just from day one, this is what I've always wanted to do.
I remember moving to Nashville and walking up and down Music
Row the summer before I turned 17, like going in and asking for
applications at all the record labels, like had no idea how to
get a job in the industry. I was like, well, I'll just go
in there and apply and of coursethey'll hire me.

(20:35):
And so that was, you know, you kind of learn and I've worked
for a lot of companies in Nashville and got tied into a
management company that didn't realize I was as young as I was
and put me out on some van and trailer CCM tours and then some
van and trailer like punk rock tours.
And somewhere. And that they realized I was

(20:57):
still in high school and like summer between my junior and
senior year. And, you know, I'm out tour
managing, driving, mixing, doingmerch, you know, for these
bands. And I'm, you know, we'd hit the
end of the weekend and they would have to pay me and they
weren't getting paid. I was like, well, this is the
greatest industry ever. Like, I should keep doing this,

(21:18):
you know, because they were on labels.
So, you know, they're trying to do it to sell albums.
And it kind of kept going from there.
And I threw a series of that. I got connected with an act that
was tied into Claire and I started doing freelance work for
Claire, actually Roy Claire. I remember I was sitting in a

(21:38):
bar and he called me to like negotiate the tour rider that we
were doing for our first tour and got tied into him and Ralph
Mastroangelo down in Nashville and started doing lofts and kind
of went from doing staging and roofing and lighting tours.
I was doing lighting tours for PGP for Creech and Paulison was

(21:58):
like firmly an audio guy for Ralph and was there a couple
years freelance and then was there as a full time guy for
like 11 years. You went through some really
incredible people in our industry, you know, between
Wiseman and Creech and Claire, obviously what a what a way to

(22:18):
come up through the industry. Yeah, I said.
I think hindsight is I started to realize that later.
So I'm super lucky. And certainly there's been
moments of like, thank God, you know, when I was a snotty
younger man that they, you know,put up or, you know, corrected
me or still didn't kick me out in the process.

(22:40):
You know, there was a company I work for.
There's this guy Bobby Brantley in Nashville.
Our kids go or have went to school together now.
And I mean, when I work for Bobby, I had a purple Mohawk and
Bobby did staging and audio. And I remember walking into his
office and being like, hey man, I don't do staging like I do
audio. I'm not going to go sling decks.
And he was very cool. He's like absolutely not a

(23:01):
problem. And all of a sudden he's like,
they stopped calling and I called up one day.
I said, Hey, I haven't got any gigs from you guys.
And he's like, well, you don't want to do staging.
And when that's what we do here is we do both.
Now, if you want to change that opinion, more than happy to have
you back. It was very kind of like, all
right, like I, I kind of came inat 18 telling you how to do it.

(23:23):
You know, you could have thoughtcompletely gone a different.
Direction. Yeah, I got really lucky.
Yeah. You know, so you kind of got
into the industry sort of a little bit at the tail end of
the original people, you know, like, but they were still pretty
rough, right. Like it, it was still rough on a

(23:45):
young kid coming into the industry.
They weren't, they didn't care much about your feelings.
You know, it wasn't, it wasn't, you know, chance.
How are you feeling today? It was get your ass up and get
over there now, you know, or you're going home.
And I'm not buying you a plane ticket.
It, it was a good, I, I think itwas a good way to come in.
It was, it straddled that the part where we were shifting

(24:06):
from, you know, the industry wasstill all about selling records.
And I was around it when we madethat transition.
I was around the transition of, of, you know, his line array was
starting. I mean I remember doing a
showcase and meeting Jeff Cox who came in to mix the showcase

(24:27):
and him literally tell me about like following V Dosk.
In fact, actually my first European Tour was it with a band
called No, it was with an openerand they headliners band called
No Angels. It was in Germany and it was the
Westfallon's first run with V Dosk and Christian came out to
like help them the first couple shows because they were kind of

(24:49):
in that transitional period and had no idea at the time that
like Christian Hall was out there checking on this account,
checking on his thing. So like I, I had a really nice
entry point, the fact that I gotthe old, old part and I got the
new part as we transition. And so I can kind of remember
how it was. Yeah, that's, that's perfect.

(25:10):
You know, that's, that's like the perfect time.
Like it's like, you know, I havea house in Canada and I have a
house in the US and I'm old enough that I was in like 5th
grade when they were converting to metric in Canada.
So I knew the standard stuff andI learned the metric stuff and
how to convert the two because you had to figure that out too.

(25:31):
And so I've never had a challenge between metric and,
and imperial anything, right? Like whether it's temperature
or, or, you know, weights or whatever.
Like I've, I've always been verygood at it.
And people are like, why is thatso easy for you?
And it's well, I learned them both in school, so.
Yeah, 100% and now it's a Google.

(25:51):
It's a ChatGPT. Yeah, exactly.
It's pretty easy to figure it out now.
But yeah, so that's a cool time to have come in right at the
front end of liner. And you got to ride that wave, I
guess, right? Yeah.
I mean, I think it's just the industry shift, the technology
shift, digital platform shift, you know, all those different

(26:12):
things where you kind of you're very fresh and OK, I know what
Trip Calef and an XL4 sounded like on an S4 rig with Fleetwood
Mac. And now how do you know now
we're going this direction? And so your reference points and
everything was really good. And then, you know, but to your
point, like we've gotten better,like now we're, you know, COVID,

(26:33):
while it wrecked a lot of things, that also helped us go,
OK. You know, I remember if I was
going to do a tour and I needed like one day off for a personal
thing in the middle of three months, that was just no, you
know, and now everybody's very accommodating to of course,
like, let's figure out how to support you.
If there's a personal thing thatyou need to do a wedding or you
know, I think there's a lot moreflexibility in people wanting to

(26:55):
work to try to help balance thisall out.
Well, it's also become a real career, you know, like back
then, back then you were gypsies.
You know, now it's a real career.
Like you're making real money and and people have families and
it's not the party that it was in the 80s and 90s so much.
Well, and I say at the same time, like some of this, we

(27:16):
haven't given up. Like if you think about, we were
talking about this last night, if you think about the amount of
stuff that is now required to bea touring technician, Yeah.
Not only do you have to do all the stuff that we used to do,
the travel, the the late nights,the early mornings, you know,
load in a stadium in the rain, but I need you to be an IT
networking specialist. If you're a crew chief, you need

(27:37):
to be an HR manager. So, you know, it's just we keep
putting more and more on them. HR mental health, yeah, you
know, drug dependency expert, you know, like just all kinds of
things like it's it's so much more important to have those
multi skills and and stuff. But so when you in the early

(28:00):
days, you were touring as a tech, as a, as a front of house
engineer, monitor engineer or all of the above.
I so the first, the first account I do with Claire, I came
in as a, as a customer and so I picked up some monitor gigs.
I was very young. I, I picked up some tech things.
Ralph at the time Nashville office did a lot of festivals.

(28:21):
There was a guy Robert Kozlowski, who was Reba's
monitor forever and cause was kind of off from her and was
running all these festivals and I did a ton of them with 'cause
which was just super, you know, you can be a really great
touring guy if you can do a bunch of festivals.
Like, you know, touring is easy after that.
And so, you know, I did that andI really enjoyed the sweet spot

(28:42):
of being a crew chief system engineer.
Like that was my area of that because I like I enjoyed working
with, you know, representing thecompany at the time, the
technology. I enjoyed supporting the
engineers. You know, it was, you know, it
was fun too. And building good relationships.
I had a lot of good relationships with guys I worked
with. You know, where they would trust

(29:04):
me, I trust them. We try to build up a really good
team and it was a great time to be there and we were constantly
every day try to see how we could do it better.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that makes sense.
And especially again, like probably when you're sort of on
the cutting edge of the new technology and stuff, there's
probably a lot of educating people who are coming in as as

(29:26):
crew members or whatever as well.
Like, hey, I've never seen a system like this, you know,
how's it work? You know, that kind of thing.
And, and so, yeah, I mean, I like, I like that.
I like that you were sort of on the cutting edge of the tech.
And So what was harder the the transformation to line array
from like the the point source systems to or or the

(29:50):
transformation from analog to digital consoles?
I mean, I think the you, you canlook at it both ways.
Like there were several tours, like, you know, one of the last
prism tours I got to do was likeAlan Jackson had a prism rig.
Well, well into when, you know, the I fi was very predominant.
You know, I was out of the company before cohesion became a

(30:10):
thing. And then, you know, Claire also
at one point put out a system called the Vision, which was
kind of like Prism 2 point O. And so I had mixed in, you know,
conventional into that. I mean the biggest challenge was
is that overall just pressure that Prism and S fours created

(30:31):
and then like the EVMT fours where you got that low mid
pressure, you know, that really created movement in the room
when it was done right. That was a hard thing.
And some of the early days, you know, the the clarity was there.
But then there were a lot of systems that were great, like
the J rig on D twelves that 8th day used to put out had some of

(30:52):
the same soft compression that the S4 on its old CTS processors
did. And, you know, you'd stand there
and turn something up and be like, man, I'm a better engineer
than I thought I was. Like, you know, line arrays,
definitely. They either really helped you or
they could, you know, in the early days could burn you
because it was inconsistent. You know, this, like everybody
had their settings and their wayof amping it.

(31:13):
And you know, the companies havedone such a great job of
standardizing that and getting it where the consistency is
there. Yeah, on that, on that topic,
like for Someone Like You who who really recognizes the
difference, because I don't like, you know, I've always
enjoyed good sound, but I've notbeen able to differentiate why I

(31:34):
like this one better than this one necessarily.
You know, like I saw them, you know, in a different venue and I
liked this and I didn't like it here.
But like, you're probably able to easily walk into a venue and
go, oh, that's a blah, you know,versus that's a.
Sad. Sadly I'm that gear nerd.

(31:54):
Yes, so. You can.
You can hear the difference between a DNBGSL&A and AK-2.
Sure. Jesus, See, I can't.
I couldn't tell looking at them the difference because I'm a
lighting guy for. The most well, but I think I
think some of that is like I think both of those companies
have done really well and like trying to be flat and that and

(32:16):
there's things that I've like over, you know, you know,
there's things like hey, this does this really well and I like
the way that sounds. I'm a big believer, though, that
any you know, and like guys likepooch have said this for years.
A good engineer is going to be the is going to be good on a lot
of systems. And I think until you until you
put your finger on a fader, you really can't judge somebody's

(32:37):
mix because that's the only way to know like what was happening
in the room that night, What wasthe band doing?
You know, so like to your point,while knowing the technology is
great, like I went to, you know,I've go to concerts.
I was one a couple weeks ago andI try to just enjoy the show.
Like, you know, if like I don't know what that front of house
guys dealing with tonight. I don't know if the singer's

(32:57):
off, the drummer's maybe had a fight before, you know?
So let's just enjoy the show. Yeah, at least as an audio guy,
you're, you're sitting there listening to the show and
enjoying the show and you can hear the songs and stuff like
lighting people. We're idiots.
We just sit there and look up atthe rig all night and you know,
oh, there's a fixture out. Oh, there's this, oh, there's

(33:18):
that. And you practically don't even
hear the music most of the time because you're too busy, you
know, looking at things and paying attention to exactly
what's going on. And usually, like I've worked
for a manufacturer, so I'm looking for failure points in
other people's product or I'm looking to make sure that none
of my stuff is failing on a particular show.

(33:39):
Like this is back in the day when I worked for Martin and
everything failed. Or you know, I worked for high
end and less stuff failed or whatever but but like at least
as an audio guy you can probablyenjoy the show.
Where As for lighting, we're just always looking up, we don't
even know what. I'll be honest, I don't look and
see like what's failed, but I, I, that's a great point.

(33:59):
I've never caught that. But I mean, I was at like
Coldplay and of course I'm immediately like telling sooner.
I'm like, I'm amazed at how manyJDC's you put.
Like in my head, I'm looking at how many JDC's are now hanging
on the mid rail around the stadium and thinking about the
cabling that went to it and likehow long that take to load in
and what was the stage hand count like that's working for

(34:20):
360 companies later, You know, you start to like get into that
piece. And for me it's the just I, I
really enjoy the immersiveness of that.
But you also start to go like, all right, that's 400 JDCS.
It probably rents for this. Like, you know, what's the
budget? What was the budget?
It's crazy. Yeah.
You know, I'm, I'm, I do some work with a confetti company who

(34:41):
provides all the confetti for Coldplay, and the pallets of
confetti that they're shipping out every couple of shows is
just wild. It's wild how much confetti they
use in a Coldplay show. Just unbelievable.
It's crazy. It's a great show.
It's they, they've done an amazing job.
That team has made it incrediblysuper immersive.
Yeah, it's quite an industry unto itself though.

(35:02):
Coldplay, like it's just wild, you know?
And now they're now they're a dating app, you know, so.
I think there were 220 somethingshows in when I saw it.
Like onto this current tour. Yeah, just insane.
Jesus, it is a machine. That thing is a machine like I,
you know, or I hate to say it because it makes it sound like I

(35:24):
think I'm smart and I'm not. But when Coldplay first came
out, I thought these guys might have some longevity.
You know, they sound a lot like you too, but I like them better.
I've never been AU2 fan and but I really liked Coldplay when
they first came out. I'm a little, you know, little
over him at this point, but but they're a great band and they

(35:45):
have a great sound and everything else, and they know
how to write hits too, you know?And Chris Martin's a great front
man. He's, I mean, he's, he's working
that audience. He's working a whole stadium.
Yeah, no, he's amazing. He knows how to get you going.
And and I mean just again, the whole show design and stuff too,
like it's it's you know, the things that they do out over and

(36:05):
with the audience, like they were one of the first ones, you
know, that got phones involved in the shows that I remember it
was a shed tour like probably 20something years ago.
And I remember them getting phones involved or probably 20
years ago. And and it was just like, wow,
that's cool. You know, the whole like
audience is yellow or whatever it was.
I don't even remember, but but yeah, yeah, it's pretty cool

(36:29):
stuff. So now you actually look at
lights, so that's good. Yeah, I I kind of had a 2012 was
my goal to get off the road and I was looking at 8th day and
was, you know, I was talking to Claire and VR launched its
torrent division at that time and and Ralph had been my boss
at Claire Vincent hired. And I remember I was up meeting

(36:52):
with Tom Arco and just one of the sweetest, nicest guys ever
and was kind of struggling with the do I want to move away from
Nashville and family. And literally Ralph called and
said, I don't really know a lot about this company, but this is
what they want to do, etcetera. They want us to build a team
and, you know, and it's in Nashville.
And I was like, all right, so did it.

(37:14):
And you know, very quickly when a company where, you know, when
you get into a multi discipline company, you know, OK, hey, I
can't buy this today because we bought this camera or we need to
buy these lights for this. So you're balancing a lot of
things. And so I but I you know, I
really enjoyed all of it. And then when I started, I was
started as a video guy and went lightning and went audio.

(37:35):
So like being in that world of 360 wasn't that big a deal.
And so from then on, from 2012 and 2012 to now, it's been all
360 companies and it's great. And I'm, you know, used to,
we're going to talk about audio in this conversation.
Then we're going to flip to lighting.
Now we'll talk about staging, you know, and you just kind of
have to you learn it all not as well as I mean we have in the

(37:59):
company now we have some amazingexperts of things like I, it's
enough to be able to understand where they're at, but I would
never consider myself to be as smart as they are in some of
these specific disciplines. Yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, some of the peopleyou have on your team are just
incredible people with all kindsof things.
You know, it's like, is like Jason, like I remember the first
meeting I sat in with Jason thatwas sort of an OPS meeting.

(38:22):
And you know, I always knew Jason as a, as an audio guy.
And all of a sudden he's like this systems guy who is like
talking about their IT systems and, and you know, their, their
ERP systems and stuff like that and their rental software.
And I'm like, man, you know, this guy really knows his stuff.

(38:42):
And you know, you're like a former touring audio guy or
whatever. Like this is interesting but
just a really smart guy who getsit right.
Well, in the fact we have a guy that is running kind of that
running your audio video companyand has been a company owner as
well. He knows like, what really
matters and what you know what'simportant.

(39:03):
Yeah, yeah. And that's hard stuff to teach.
You just have to kind of experience, you know, like what
it's like to have payroll comingup next week and, you know, no
revenue or whatever, right. Like it's, those are the things
that you just have to live through to really know what it
feels like. But you know, you were, you
mentioned something and I don't want to really jump too far out

(39:25):
of the timeline here or anything, but you mentioned
something about, you know, just focusing on the different
disciplines within a 360 companyversus just being an audio
company. And that's got to bring in all
kinds of CapEx challenges from astandpoint of just, you know,
strategically, like we've got X number of dollars to spend next

(39:45):
year and how do you chop that upto make the most sense?
And you know, I'm sure that is abig part of your job today, as
you know, now that you're running a 360 fairly large
company. So how do you do that?
Like is it based on ROI? Is it based on what's on the
books for next year? Is it based on like just

(40:07):
sticking your finger up in the air and going, you know, what's
it feel like? Like how do you how do you make
those kind of decisions? No, I mean, I think you so you
have to you have to obviously keep people that are really
focused on what they do. So for example, like even in a
360 company, we really want the guys that are passionate about

(40:27):
audio to focus on audio. Like they need to show up every
day and want to put out the bestproduct there.
And you know, the guys that overhere do staging to do that.
We certainly want them to obviously collaborate.
But what I you know, you don't need this guy to all of a sudden
worry about like, you know, can I cross sell or what's going on
over here? And then you, you know, you put
a lot of metrics to it. I think you have to use use

(40:49):
data. I really enjoy it, but I think
you use that as a tool. And so a lot of people get in
this in our industry, you know, if you're coming into this part
of it, you know, the corporate thing of, hey, we're going to
look at heavy returns or that you have to you have to use data
to pull emotion out of it and then you use that to drive the

(41:11):
story. And so you know, your point,
like what's next year? So like we're looking at a lot
of things around. Obviously there's a lot of bids
around FIFA, you know, what are the opportunities?
But you know, a lesson I remember, you know, you try to
take in all these little things from people you hear over the
years more Troy Claire one time saying, you know, it's never
about this gig if you're always selling for the next gig, you
know, so hey, if we're going to do something, you know, is it

(41:35):
this one? But where does that gear go
after the fact? So like if we look at some FIFA
stuff, we're going to look at ithere and go, all right, well, if
we had to buy something that really supports this, what is
the life after that? And so we're trying to kind of
stay within a lot of core inventory and have a lot of
depth of it. You know, OK, I've got vanilla
and chocolate and maybe, you know, I don't have strawberry

(41:56):
and I don't have pistachio, but I've got a lot of vanilla and
chocolate. And so we can.
Instead of having four of everything, you have 100 of one
thing or two things or whatever,correct?
Makes a lot and then we try to be you know secular like so next
year for us in the audio video lighting company is is going to
be a heavy video year like and we're telling our vendors that

(42:18):
like we have to obviously buy for jobs that are leaving and we
you know we've got a large stadium to where they'll go out
but like we're going to do a bigpush and video and then the year
after that we'll be a really large push and lighting so we
can maximize our dollars and notjust kind of keep plugging holes
as we. Go.
But I, I, I'm still curious and,and you may say, you know,

(42:39):
that's just our secret sauce andI can't tell you that, but I'm,
I'm still curious. Like, do you just take the head
of all your departments, all your divisions and, you know,
throw them in a ring and let them fight it out or, or is it
100% database like where it's like, you know, OK, this one is
at 76% utilization and, you know, XROY, and therefore that's

(43:04):
going to get the biggest part ofthe budget.
Or, you know, we went all in on getting, you know, The Beatles
reunion next year and and we need to, you know, invest
heavily in the gear we need for that.
Like or is it just a combinationof all kinds of those things and
a gut feel? It's it's all that you AI mean.
I'd love to see the cage match and just let them see fight out

(43:26):
for CapEx. Dollars.
Feel like team lighting would probably do that.
I think if you, if you continually invest in what is
your best ROI, of course, obviously you're going to have
great ROI, but the but you're going to continue just to grow
that segment of business. So you know, and you know, as
well as I know, like if I buy this movie, like today, I'm

(43:49):
going to have to replace it and you know, four to five years, if
I'm buying 100 and they kind of add and then I sell that and buy
another hundred, I'm just reallydoing the same revenue.
So I think that's where we've tried to go.
We're going to make this big kind of circular push and go,
this is a big push in the video and we'll and we'll step up that
discipline and then we'll step up this discipline and you kind

(44:11):
of keep raising them in the process.
But you also, you know, it helpswith the vendor conversation.
So like, hey, guys, like, you know that my spend is this year
and you hold money back because there's always some tour that's
going to come up that you didn'tknow about.
You want to go get something forit.
But you know, it helps with the vendors were like, hey, like I'm
going to do a bunch this year and they go, well, actually you

(44:33):
should probably wait because there's a new grand in May 4
that comes out this year and you're going to want to replace
all yours. OK, Well, that's good budgeting.
Yeah. You know, but it's interesting
because you you said something about, you know, just investing
in the in the biggest thing and you're only growing that thing.
So, you know, that's always sortof a strategical argument in my

(44:56):
own head. Like do you put the most
marketing dollars into the thingthat's your fastest growth or
your biggest growth? Or do you put it into the
smallest one that's not getting any attention but has the
potential to grow? And, you know, I'm sure there's
parents that are thinking the same thing about their two kids.
You know, do I give the most money to the one who's the best
soccer player or do I give the one to the the kid who's the the

(45:20):
worst basketball player? Like, you know, where do I put
the money or the effort, you know, the time to take them to
practices or the best coaching or whatever it is.
And but it's always like the whole CapEx thing to me makes me
never want to be in the rental business in our industry because
it's, it's so challenging and it's so based on, on, you know,

(45:44):
fashion like, you know, today every LD wants this light and
then, you know, six months from now, it's this light.
And now we're supposed to dump all of this inventory and get as
many of these as we can at top dollar.
And you know, the money on the rental side isn't going up near
as fast as the price of the products.
So it's a tough businessman. No, you got to, I mean, and

(46:08):
that's where you look at and go like, you know, speak loud
speakers are great investment like L Acoustics and obviously
the bigger the speaker gets, sometimes it goes down.
But like L Acoustics is a brand.So do you know your point?
Like you also look at the vendors and when you do it.
So like that's a company that really protects its partners.
They don't roll out replacements.
They give you the long lifespan.You know, K1 has been in the

(46:31):
market for you know how however long.
So whenever they finally replaceit, you'll have gotten all your
investment out of it. They have great apps, you know,
they have great second hand salevalue.
So like when you're picking products, you're trying to pick
a balance of that and go, OK, I need to have some of this stuff,
you know, and I need to obviously, you know, like I need

(46:51):
to make sure I have plenty of grand anime threes because it's
going to do that, you know. But like, you know, there are
those items like fixtures of, you know, I'm going to try to
pick a fixture and go, does thiswork for a few years?
And that piece, can I get that number back?
Or, you know, CB5 tiles, CB5 tiles are still, you know, when
you bought them, they're a greatinvestment.
So it's a balancing act. But I I agree with them and like

(47:12):
you can be down that rabbit holeand you have to be willing to
help with your customers. Explain that we need to be at a
certain number because you need to be profitable to make this
investment that we need to in this industry to continually
make sure that we have the itemsthat they need to support their
artist or events or etcetera. And that and, and you are to

(47:36):
bank for them in that process. Like I need to be able to be
profitable, to invest, to make sure that I have the items for
you so you can deliver the creativity that you need to for
your artist. Well, and I mean for any
company, you make enough wrong choices and, and you know,
you're, you're in line at the private equity or, or you know,
the, the private credit facilities out there or whatever

(48:00):
and just burying your company indebt and problems and everything
else. And, and, you know, we've all
seen it happen, you know, like Iremember a particular case at
VAVER that was pretty painful and, and, you know, cost them
greatly because they, they invested heavily in something
that maybe didn't go as well as they expected it to.

(48:23):
But like you mentioned LED tilesand I'm not going to pick on
anyone brand, but I keep seeing the rental rates dropping on
those things, but the purchase price is going up and the gap
just getting bigger and bigger and bigger between those two
things. Like I remember when LED tiles
were special and you had to havea particular brand and you had

(48:44):
to have a particular model and stuff.
But now it's become a little more, you know, ubiquitous or
whatever. And also prices have gone down
by like 70 or 80% on the rental market as well.
So that's a tough business to look at and go, yeah, I mean,
you have the the the volume on the rental side for double the

(49:06):
inventory, but you're now, you know, getting declining ROI on,
on your CapEx money. And so, yeah, scary business,
man. It's a freaky business we're in.
Yeah, no, to your point, I mean,you've been in as on the
manufacturer side, whatever the thing that everybody wants this
year, there's probably some alternate version of it next

(49:26):
year, you know, in cameras and stuff like that.
It was all, you know, when you get the two point OS and the,
you know, all this is, you know,the heavy camera markets, you
know, you'll have DPS. I have to have this this year
and then like a year later, although that one's complete,
you know, shit, now we got to have this one.
So LED. I remember years ago seeing a

(49:47):
product, they came in, it was inJanuary.
They're showing us this product.It was gorgeous and had this
really mechanics that were really interesting.
And during the conversation he was letting us know that the
replacement 2 point O less pixelpitch whatever was coming out in
November. And I remember standing there,
I'm like, so you buy it now, we probably receive it in March and

(50:10):
you're shipping the next replacement oven in November.
So we basically have this many months to make up the.
Return You got to get your moneyback in six months.
Yeah, and he was super excited about that.
They were releasing as like thisis, you know, bad.
Sounds bad, I would have fired him on the spot.
I I mean, I just, I walked back to the office.
I was like, you guys can keep talking about this like we're
not, I'm not going to jump up and down about trying to buy

(50:31):
something like this. Yeah, you know.
And today's podcast is brought to you by Artistry in Motion.
When it's time to make a moment unforgettable, Artistry in
Motion delivers. Since 1994 they've been the go
to source for top tier confetti and streamer special effects,
turning ordinary events into explosive show stopping

(50:52):
experiences. From concerts and TV productions
to major sporting events and theme parks, they bring the wow
factor with precision and creativity.
So whether you need a massive stadium drop or a subtle picture
perfect cascade, they make it happen on time every time.
Their team doesn't just supply confetti, they collaborate with

(51:14):
show designers, event planners and production teams to ensure
every effect is camera ready andcrowd approved.
Want to take your next event to the next level?
Hit them up artistryinmotion.comand let's make memories happen.
You know, and it like I, I've had the, the leisure luxury pain

(51:38):
of looking at a lot of companieseither as a consultant directly
to that company, cuz I just beenaround so long that people start
asking you to, hey, can you helpme over here?
I need a few things solved. So I've gotten involved in a lot
of consulting over the years, but I helped a 360 company do a
roll up and got very involved inlooking at each of the companies

(52:02):
they were buying and looking at the spreadsheets and looking at
their CapEx and looking at theirfinancials and stuff.
And you know, two things shockedme back then.
And part of this is going to sound like a sales pitch for a
product I'm building, but two things shocked me.
One was how much of their revenue was actually spent on,
on sub rentals. And you know, there's the

(52:24):
product pitch for, for what I'm now doing.
And you know, in many cases it was like, you know, if you
looked at, at the, the price of a show, if, if I was charging,
you know, $250,000 for a show orwhatever, let's call it
200,025%, somewhere between 20 and 30% depending on which

(52:49):
company you were looking at, wasgoing straight out in cross
rentals. And I was like, wow, that's a
lot. You know, 50 grand on a, on a
$200,000 show is in cross rentaloutbound.
And then, you know, the other one was the percentage on the
books for the percentage of of revenue at the end of the year
that's spent on CapEx for the next year.

(53:11):
And this particular roll up thatI was involved in, you know,
didn't really believe that number and was quite shocked by
the second year of how much money they really undervalued
CapEx needs. You know, they didn't put enough
on, they didn't put a big enoughline on their on their budgets

(53:31):
for cash for those CapEx needs. And they started having people
yelling at them saying, you know, where's the money?
Like we need this stuff to be able to get these shows and we
can't get it so. Yeah, there was, there was a gap
where when I was I was with PRG and then I went into the
creative space and was with an agency and then, you know, kind

(53:53):
of back in the production world.And so there was about a year
and a half gap where I was doingsome consulting for equity
groups that were looking at production companies because I
didn't want to do that while I was in one of those companies.
That would be wrong. And that was one of my biggest
conversations with them is, you know, the continual CapEx is
something you'd have to factor in because a lot of these

(54:15):
investment groups will do the initial and are very aware of
it, you know, and there's obviously ones that are better
than others. But they were surprised when the
next year you came back and said, OK, remember that $80
million you gave us last year? Well, now we need that again.
And they're like, we'll wait a minute.
This is every year, like, yeah, every year we're going to purge
inventory out, we're going to refresh it.

(54:35):
And so I think that continual CapEx need is something that a
lot of people don't plan for in this industry when looking and
coming in from the outside that like that is part of it and that
cycle is just speed up over the years.
Well, and you know, it can be compared to like the car rental
business for example. The big difference that I see is

(54:58):
manufacturers get heavily involved in that program in the
car rental side of things. So they'll, you know, General
Motors will have a deal with Hertz, for example, where
they're selling the next amount of cars per year and they may
take back a certain number everyyear when they're renewing their
fleet or whatever. And it's just a commitment

(55:19):
between the manufacturer and thecar rental company in some
sense. And the numbers, the gap isn't
as big because like a a $20,000 car that Hertz is buying today,
they can sell it after 8-9, twelve months of rental for

(55:39):
16,000 or 15,000. And they're getting a discount
from the car company too. So they're buying a $20,000 car
for 17 or whatever. So it's a tiny gap between that
and the used price. And so in our industry, that gap
is much bigger. You know, it's you're losing a
lot more on your salvage cost tobe I mean you want that second

(56:01):
hand cost and you want to buy ata volume where your cost to buy
gets as close as you can to thatsecond hand cost.
And there are, there's some large rental companies that are
out there, they're buying and volume that their purchase price
is what they're reselling for after a hypothetically, let's
say three to four years, you know where basically the rentals

(56:23):
from in that time frame are running the business and
creating the, you know, the EBITDA and, and they're
recouping their investment. But you have to buy at such a
volume. And to your point, we don't have
that kind of second hand market the way that the car industry
does. No, you know, it's a much more
reliable sell through and and inthe car industry it seems to

(56:44):
work really well, whereas in in our business not so well.
And you know the other like those guys that you're talking
about who can buy and sell sort of at the same price.
They can buy the new stuff for what they're selling the old
stuff for. So they're just really life
cycling inventory and it's not costing them any money to do
that. And their profits come from the

(57:04):
rental. Like you said, it used to work
like that, like you used to in the lighting business.
You used to buy, example, a Cyberlite for roughly $5000 and
you would use it and you know, bash, which ended up becoming
the four wall model when when Canon started it and then became

(57:25):
the main light model when Canon bought main light.
You basically sell off your inventory within two years
maximum. And in doing so you negotiate
very large volume purchase dealswith those manufacturers where
you're buying at a price that really closes that gap between
used and and replacement cost. And you could get away with it

(57:49):
like it back in the day, you'd, you'd buy that Cyberlite, rent
it for $300 a week and then you'd sell it used for five
grand within two years. And now you're buying it for
12,000 for the moving light, you're paying 12,000, you're
selling it used for 6000 and you're renting it for less than

(58:11):
$200 a week, you know, or whatever, right?
Like all the numbers have gone funky in, in the whole equation.
And you know, hence all the private equity needed for our
industry now is, is the shows are bigger and the gaps are
bigger and CapEx is bigger. So obviously the cash has to

(58:31):
come from somewhere. No, and that and that's why, you
know, in other companies or in this one, you're looking at
those items that have the longest lifespan to hold it.
You know, I mean, that's why I use it, you know, AI just like
the company, but I use it like, you know, a company like an L
acoustics that where that value is staying up, you know, as long
as you can. So when you do go get your money
back, you can recover it and it gives you the best ROI, you

(58:55):
know, and it's tough like you'regoing to have items when you
look at your whole book of business, you're going to have
items that you're like, that item is doesn't hit the numbers.
But I also have to have it to get all this other stuff working
and to have this job, you know, so it's a very blended average
that you're constantly trying to, you know, weigh against.
Yeah, yeah. No, you're right.
And, and I mean, L acoustic is obviously the very best example

(59:19):
of that right now in lighting, you know, maybe Roby, but the
gap again between new and used is still pretty large.
And you know, I don't know, I always look at pressure from,
you know, Asia, etcetera. Like, you know, you're starting
to see decent line array products coming out of Asia that
are not direct copies of L Acoustic.
Like I'm not talking about the copies, which there are absolute

(59:42):
copies, you know that some have been caught, others haven't yet.
But if you look at even just some of the the actual
innovation happening in China inthe audio business now I'm
seeing products, it's starting to get better.
Certainly on the lighting side, they maybe had a head start.
So they got better several yearsago and you're starting to see

(01:00:03):
companies that are selling direct into the US market like
Acme. That are very good products now
they're not like you can't just go, oh, that's Chinese junk like
you used to be able to because almost everything is Chinese now
and most of it isn't junk. It's all good, you know, so
certainly some is better than others.
Like, you know, Elation might bethe best of the Chinese brands

(01:00:26):
and then maybe Chauvet and then maybe Acme or however that lines
up. But but it's all good now.
And so in in the line array stuff in big audio.
Is there starting to be any realcompetition from Asia yet or is
it still a few years away? No, I mean I think you know,

(01:00:47):
you're still investing in the inthe the three large brands and
then you know JBL is, is kind ofcoming in there.
There is a place for those there.
Look, there's a place for everything.
There's a budget for everything,you know, and there's companies
that work in all budgets and there's jobs in all budgets and,
and you have to at any level, you have to make the right
investment for where you're at. You know, you know, in our level

(01:01:11):
and the level that fortunately level I've been in a lot of
companies, you know, you're working with a couple
manufacturers, you're staying around the DNB, you're staying
around L Acoustics admire when you get in the speaker
manufacturers because you know, rider acceptability, their
support and then just, you know,things they do to protect the
customer. You know, my I, you know it.

(01:01:33):
They really make sure to try to get those ROI's for the customer
and and protect that investment the best they can.
And so you know, you do it, but it's also to make sure like,
does this work? Can it rent?
I mean, at the end of the day, we're not running museums, so
the gear's got to get out of thewarehouse, you know, So you have
to have something that people are calling for.
So it doesn't really matter whatyou like, it has to be what you

(01:01:54):
know what your customer is goingto want to use.
Yeah, well, it also, you know, you said you got to decide
what's what's, you know, what you need or whatever, but you
also have to decide who you wantto be like who who do you want
your customers to see you as? Like I, I can't tell you how
many times people have called meand said, Hey, what do you think
about this Sheds lighting stuff?You know, Sheds is a brand that

(01:02:17):
sells on Facebook and on Amazon and stuff, right?
It's a direct from China DTC brand and you know, like I just
say to them, what do you want, you know, the name on your door
to be like, what do you want people to think of you as in the
market? You know, the low cost leader or

(01:02:38):
the guys who get it right every time and and do really high
quality work. And you know, that's who you
want to associate your brand with.
Is is, you know, you want your brand married to an L acoustic
or to, you know, Shenzhen Audio manufacturing Group or whatever
it's called, right. And so, yeah, I think that plays
a role certainly. Like do you want to be a, a top

(01:03:01):
tier quality brand or do you want to be, you know, the low
cost leader? Yeah.
And we and we've been very luckythat the brands that this
company, other companies work with, you know DMB and and and
Araton and and Roby and all these to be able to work on that
because you want to be able to deliver that kind of quality to
the customer. Yeah.
So I think somewhere in your notes I read about a special

(01:03:24):
relationship that you have with Jerry Harris, which The funny
thing is I have a similar special relationship which
started out pretty much the exact same way as you said yours
did. So tell me about that.
I so 2012 I went into VR and we started obviously tour sound and
VR grew and did what it did and,and I think under events it was

(01:03:49):
fantastic. And we certainly had, you know,
the growth and things like that of how it's managed.
Obviously, as we all know it headed into bankruptcy.
And so, you know, PRG and through obviously Equity
Partners, they acquired it and you know, so a lot of the people
that were still there post, you know, that that phase were not

(01:04:09):
the people that were involved ina lot of that.
And so, you know, we had built areally great company.
I that's the one thing I think that anybody that looks at that
time frame and goes that company, if you take out the
finances, which are important, that company dominated and
really was solid. Obviously until it, you know,
whenever you go from private ownership into an equity group,
you change how you know it needsto function.

(01:04:32):
But it was, you know, that time of the people that are involved
in that company was really special.
So of course we went into PRG huge chip on our shoulders, you
know, and, and I haven't been atPRG for six years.
The amount of people I've apologized to at PRG for
probably that first six months, a year of, you know, of them

(01:04:53):
buying us and what's feeling like was a merger, you know, and
just what the reality it was. And so we're in a meeting and,
you know, it's my first meeting with Jerry and, you know,
driving this part of it. And, you know, Jerry makes a
comment. I think we had a difference of
opinion or something like that. And I got just, you know, the
tongue lashing from them, all the expletives, you know, just,

(01:05:16):
you know, the normal thing. And I'm like, all right, well,
obviously I'm I'm done. Like this is, you know, this is
it. And we ended up, you know, he
pulled me aside later and we satthere and talked.
And the good thing, the thing about Jerry is he can literally
in that moment be like, I disagree with you on this point.
And it has no bearing on how he feels about you and anything

(01:05:37):
else where a lot of people like,you know, UMF me and now I hate
everything about you, you know, so he's king of like we yelled
at each other and this and now let's go have dinner.
And we end up having a really good relationship and, and went
from there of like honest conversations of this.
And he's been a really good mentor in there And I still got

(01:05:58):
MF and other meetings from him, you know, after that.
And it was like, Yep, you're right.
But I, you know, it's kind of that same thing of like, you
know, when in this situation very much had a chip on my
shoulder. You know, I'm going to make my
point not really giving him the due credit where he is.
And, you know, definitely got shut down on that first one.

(01:06:19):
But honestly, it helped us to sit there and have a very, and I
still literally have a card fromhim he sent me for Christmas
stuff. I remember our first meeting
like it was yesterday, you know,And so it's, it's a good joke
point for him. And he's like, you know, look,
he's like, I appreciate the factthat you're always going to be
honest, you know, and I'm going to tell you how it is.
And that's where we started from, you know, and I, I think

(01:06:40):
maybe not the best way to start a relationship.
But maybe it is. You know, I think Jerry likes
the people most who can take that and, and handle it well and
can go to dinner after and don'tgo pouting off in a corner
somewhere. And, you know, because I always
got a, a degree of respect from Jerry that I don't think all of
his suppliers got because I tookthe blow and, you know, didn't

(01:07:07):
kiss his ass at the end of of the the whippin.
Usually talked back a little bitand fed him whatever my side of
the story was, whether he liked it or not.
And you know, most of those meetings, even though they ended
poorly, usually finished up witha dinner or a phone call or a
something where it didn't impactthe relationship at all.

(01:07:29):
And I've always had a huge amount of respect for Jerry and
for, you know, what he does and what he has done.
And, you know, he, he's like, you know, that guy that that
goes into war and comes out, youknow, usually with a win.
And I like it. You know, I do.
I love his style all the time. Sometimes when it's directed at

(01:07:50):
me, not so much, but, but he's agreat guy.
Like I really, really like Jerry.
And when you get him outside of work and outside of work people,
you know, I've had dinners with him in Palm Beach where he used
to go quite often. And I live in Palm Beach, and
I've had dinners with him where we didn't even talk about
business, you know, where it wasjust very friendly, very

(01:08:12):
cordial, very nice and, you know, just a friend talking
about life and whatever, right. So, So yeah, it's just funny
that I've had those exact same meetings that you're talking
about in a very similar relationship.
Yeah, and it's, you know, and it's funny, like we've he's
we've had the conversation afterthe fact.
He's like, yeah, you're absolutely right.

(01:08:33):
You know, it, it, it was in thatmoment where I don't think
anybody wanted to hear anything else.
But to your point, he's we've had some amazing times of just
talking about the normal stuff. And he's very good at, you know,
bouncing anything off of, you know, and, and, you know, at the
end of the day, I mean, he's seen he's seen it all, you know,

(01:08:54):
and having a guy like that in the company to not take his
opinion and ask him advice, you know, which is the role that he
plays for them now of, you know,look, I'm here to help, you
know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's it's all very interesting and and you know, like some of
the legendary stories that I've heard of him, you know, going
chest to chest with, with some of the bankers and stuff, you

(01:09:16):
know, kept that company, you know, from becoming extinct.
I think at times, you know, because they ran into some
financial challenges over the years that would have buried
lesser people. And he just stood firm and and
made things happen. Right.
So good on I mean. He, I was fortunate, I, I was

(01:09:37):
one of the people that kept a job during COVID.
We obviously didn't, you know, massive reductions in staff and
salaries if you stayed on all that.
And we had a daily leadership call.
And I mean, I watched him jugglebattleships, you know, pay for
that company out of his own pocket, fight every single day

(01:09:57):
to make sure that that company didn't go on her and people had
a paycheck. And I mean, and it was, you
know, we had conversations outside that like, I, I knew how
many weeks he was, you know, he's like, I have this many
weeks left in my bank account ifI don't get these deals solved
to make sure that we're, you know, that we're here.
And so, I mean, that guy worked tirelessly, you know, and, and

(01:10:19):
made it up to, you know, made itup to all of us.
And so I I can't say enough goodthings about him.
Yeah, Yeah. Well, and he's he's the
penultimate entrepreneur, you know, live in it like, and I get
that on a much smaller scale than than Jerry Harris, you
know, same challenges, same moments where you're like, okay,
this is a pivotal moment. You know, I could go this way or

(01:10:41):
I could go this way and both of them possibly end in death.
You know, which should I choose,the painful slow death or the
really fast 1? You know, So, yeah, it's always
fun. So now you are the Chief
Operating Officer at Concert Stuff Group, which is one of my
favorite, you know, corporate entity names in the industry

(01:11:04):
probably at the moment. The fact that Jim and Michael
and team made that the corporateentity name is one of my
favorite things about. It.
I love it. I love it so much.
What do you do? Concert stuff.
Yeah. You know, literally that's
that's it. We do that.
We got stuff. What do you need?
Yeah. I know I love it, I love it and
I love the people behind it too.So like one of the questions I

(01:11:25):
had is, are they still like active on a daily basis?
So are you working with and for the founders or so they haven't
like stepped aside and and just advise you when necessary or
whatever? No, this, I mean, and look, this
is a this is a new role and it'snot a role that they had.
And so a lot of, you know, I have so much respect for Jim and

(01:11:50):
Michael of obviously wanting to try this and and bring this in,
but no, I mean, Jim is super involved.
You know, we had breakfast yesterday morning.
We have, you know, we have a weekly meetings, we talk every
other day text, you know, hey, here's this, you know, and, and
the things and he's done amazingand everything.
And he's also very good about letting his team do stuff, you

(01:12:12):
know, and he's really successfuland over like right now, you
know, G2 structures is a really amazing part of the business for
us. And you get on a call at Jim
where you're talking about that or talking other projects that
he's doing outside of just obviously running the vision of
the company. You know, he you just watch him
get super excited. It's it's another, you know,

(01:12:32):
kind of like a Jerry, it's another guy.
It's just a great entrepreneur. And he's the same guy all the
time. And he's very open about who he
is and his values and his culture, like, and he's that
person all the time, which I respect.
You know, if, if you're going tobe an asshole, be an asshole all
the time, you're going to be a good guy.
Like, and he's, you know, he's avery, you know, family religious

(01:12:56):
guy. Like, this is who I am.
This is who I want. And I couldn't say enough nice
things about him. Yeah.
Yeah, I've always really liked them.
Well, and he's, and he's smart as anything.
I mean, the, you know, he's started all these businesses,
he's found needs. He knows the bank process.
He knows, you know, he, he knowsCapEx, he knows every part of
this. You know, he's, he's just, he's,

(01:13:17):
you know, a wealth of information and a great leader.
I think it's so funny that you know, you your first job
application or whatever, you refuse to do staging and now you
operate a staging company. 100% yeah.
And, and look, I and I clarify this, the guys over there are
incredible. You know, when you look at the

(01:13:37):
guys in Guardian and you look atthe guys in G2S and G2 Mobile, I
mean, they are the best of the best.
Cliff and Greg Harold who run G2S are incredible.
And all those crew chiefs. I am literally just trying to,
you know, what can I do and, andhow can I listen and how can I
help? And you know it.
We're super blessed with some ofthe people we have in this
company. So you know, what is what is

(01:14:00):
your role like? Are you running the company or
is Jim running the company And you just, you know, go like he
says, take care of this stuff and you take care of this stuff.
Or it's in the normal, it's in the normal, you know, Jim's
doing the normal CEO thing. Hey, here's the vision, here's
the direction we want to go. You know, here's the things he's
passionate about, here's the M&Ahe wants to look at.

(01:14:21):
And we're, you know, we're executing that, you know, and I
am, as I've, as I'm learning, trying to weigh in and say, Hey,
what do you think about this or what do you think about this?
And in fair and, and he gives a lot of autonomy.
And there I've been very blessedthat, you know, when we did
this, it was, I want you to comein and learn.
And you know, it's not like there's not a check in, you

(01:14:44):
know, it's so, but you know, I think in any good organization,
you know, your CEO is leading that vision and it says this is
what's important to me and this is a culture and this is the
direction I want to go. And in my position and anybody
else in the C-Suite, our job is to kind of go execute that.
And then there's things that we're working on.
You know, they did this roll up in the concert stuff and it's

(01:15:06):
been a little over a year, but we kind of rolled all this in
and, you know, they started the board and, and took all these
companies and brought them in and we started some acquisition.
So a lot of the stuff that we'redoing is all the back end stuff
that I know anyway, like that was the thing of like, you know,
all right, well, you know, some of these things coming from
other companies. So like, you know, we're going

(01:15:26):
to go work on IT. We're going to go work on HR
payroll, how we do contracting, insurance.
These are not things that like, you know, we don't need to waste
the time in a meeting to sit there and be like, well, what
how, what do you want to do here?
That's the role of it. And I think then, you know, we
try to all strategically look atfuture opportunities.
And that there is private equityinvolved in this as well, right?

(01:15:47):
Nope, it's still all completely.Private.
Still private ownership. That is incredible.
I love that. Yeah, I didn't know, like I, I
had never heard of a private equity transaction in it.
So, but then when you see companies rolling up and
targeting acquisition and stuff like obviously very successful
in that company to be able to get into that position without

(01:16:10):
bringing in private Equity Partners.
Yeah, We have a very good bank relationship with JP Morgan.
You know, they're as everybody does.
You have, you know, you have options to sit there and do
stuff and they're fantastic and supportive of it.
But no, this is still one of the, you know, privately owned
companies. That is amazing.
That's awesome. Congratulations.

(01:16:30):
Not that there's anything against private equity, but you
know, it's nice when you can do it and and remain A privately
held company where you still ownall the stock or at least the
majority of it. So what what are some of the
challenges though, like when it comes to operating a private
company like that versus extremely well funded war chest

(01:16:54):
companies like Clair Global where you've spent a lot of time
and PRG maybe not quite as well funded right now, but I'm sure
they will be again and and even solo tech and others.
But, you know, there's obviouslycertain challenges where, like,
you know, maybe one company can go after a Taylor Swift tour and

(01:17:16):
you can't, for example, because,you know, it's just too
expensive and you could buy three other companies with the
same amount of money. But like, does that present huge
challenges as you're trying to grow your business or you just
grow? No, I mean anyways, you know,
you can go get a giant check from any of these things.

(01:17:37):
You then obviously, you know, like anything, like any giant,
you know, check you have your interest payments are going to
significantly go up. So you're balancing that of, you
know, I could buy the gear for Taylor Swift or I can pay this
payment. You know, I think it, I think
right now it offers a lot of opportunity.
There is to your point, there's a certain size and when you need
to be in there, you know, it it helps to have a different kind

(01:18:00):
of investor. Sometimes that's private equity,
sometimes that's a strategic forfamily institution, you know, to
kind of help you along with that.
You know, the good thing is if you're a solid company, you can
generally go get what you need from the bank in measured, you
know, amounts. It's when you want to do it in a
hit the gas pedal harder is whenyou, you know, really see the

(01:18:21):
opportunities with private equity.
Yeah, you know, I think the advantages are is you know,
there's advantage disadvantagement.
The advantages are is our board is all the people that have been
with Jim that have built these companies.
So you have the owners of the company functioning as the
board, very well educated, very well trusted.
You know, you're, you're collectively moving in the same

(01:18:42):
direction. All the best, which is a really
nice place to be. Generally too, you know, yeah,
versus, you know, some of the other intentions, but yeah, it,
you know, it, it just feels likethese days every sort of mid
size company in our industry is just building to a level where

(01:19:03):
they get the attention of eitherClaire or Solo tech or 4 Wall
or, you know, one of these deeply funded companies.
And like, obviously in the last two days we've seen 2 deals.
You know, 1 is that 4 Wall announced their big debt deal
with, with Man Group in, in the UK.
And then secondly, Claire Wing being purchased by by Claire,

(01:19:26):
which was one of the worst kept secrets.
I think over the past few weeks.I've I've heard it so many
times. So it's like, Oh yeah, the press
release is out today. Big deal.
But you know, obviously, and this isn't me putting down
Claire or 4 wall. I mean, both are great companies
and, and especially like to me, Claire is, is such a massive

(01:19:46):
brand and has such a massive opportunity to build a, an even
bigger global brand, of course, but it just feels like
everyone's auditioning to becomepart of these, these large, you
know, fund held companies. I take for all that mix, I, I
will say that there's a lot of companies and you can respect

(01:20:09):
this because you've been you've seen this is there's a lot of
companies where succession planning was not in there.
And so, you know, what happens when the founders ready to not
be there? And I think that creates a lot
of opportunity. And then at the same time
there's, you know, you know, there's other situations that

(01:20:30):
make sense. But I mean, I think in our
industry, you know, that has been one of the big drivers
that's probably post consolidation, you know, post
COVID consolidation of a lot of these places because it's a lot
of founders going like, you know, I'm out, you know, do I?
I want to cash out? I don't want to ESOP.
I don't have somebody that's a, you know, family member that

(01:20:50):
wants to take it over, you know,and I'm but at the same time,
then you look at, you know, companies and you know, who
knows what anybody does? You look at companies like neg
earth and you look at companies like upstage and you look at
like these institutional companies that are, you know,
obviously have support, but like, you know, are still being
led by the people that led them,you know, and are solid

(01:21:12):
companies, you know where they go.
You know, we all that, but I mean, I think you know, yeah,
there's no it is it's I I was trying to think of like in LA
based companies the other day that.
Weren't tied into and is anotherone.
Yeah, yeah. I mean with with Michael and you
know, like where he goes and what he does, but I think you
know. And there was a it's say and
there was sound image. And but again, they're, they're

(01:21:35):
all being bought up, you know, and you're right, though
succession planning is, is a bigtopic that probably become.
I think it drives a lot of, of course, you know, what do I want
to do here? Yeah, yeah.
And, you know, you get to a certain size and you get to a
certain age and you get to a certain, you have having gone
through COVID, guys are just going, oh God, I don't want to

(01:21:57):
ever have to do that again at myage, you know, or whatever.
So, you know, it starts to make a huge amount of sense.
And again, I'm not I'm not shaming anyone for doing it.
I think everyone should do it. If you don't have a good
succession plan with the fundingrequired to continue growing
that business going forward, then, you know, selling becomes

(01:22:18):
a very, very good option and everyone should look at it if
you're in that position, of course.
So what else did I want to ask you?
There was a big one that was on this list here somewhere that I
wanted to get into. So you know, like what the the
trajectory of concert stuff group you've talked about, like

(01:22:41):
you guys are continuing to look at acquisitions, you're looking
still at growing each of the individual divisions of the
company. So is is audio, lighting, video
and staging all run completely separately?
Like are they separate entities within the group?
Yeah, they're, they're separate in these they we, we roll up we
have a common shared service group that's that supports them

(01:23:02):
your normal backup backup house functions, but.
Marketing, accounting, What elseITE.
HR fine, ITE all that kind of stuff.
And I think you know the area that we've but you have to have
focus. And so the guys that run staging
or focused on staging, the guys that run transportation because
there's trucking and busing, they're they're focused on that.

(01:23:25):
You know, the guys that run audio, video lighting.
And that's where it works. You know, if you hodgepodge and
kind of all of a sudden have, ifyou make it wherever I have to
go, sell everything, you lose the focus and you lose the
uniqueness of what it is. And these were all separate
entities before the roll up, youknow, to kind of help build a
better support system over them,you know, so if they're all

(01:23:48):
successful by themselves, you know, don't bring them together
and make them unprofitable through consolidation.
So it sounds. Like a completely genuine sort
of organic way of combining companies where it's like, OK,
you know, everyone is spending Xpercent of your, your profits on
these six or seven things. Let's just create this entity

(01:24:11):
that does those six or seven things extremely well and really
efficiently. Because like even things like
marketing, you know, if you're buying one ad, it's $100.
If you're buying 10 ads, it's $900.
If you're buying 1000 ads that you know, the discount goes much
heavier at that point and it becomes, you know, much more

(01:24:32):
efficient. And that's, and that's exactly
the situation. I mean that's it.
What it's done is it's given a platform and that's been the the
things that have been M&A have been very strategic and they've
been things that have culturallyaligned overlapping customers,
geographies very specifically, you know on products.

(01:24:53):
You know, this thing is in this business and does this really
well and isn't just another one of these.
And you know, then it's created that back of house platform to
sit there and you know, because it's, you know, if, if I'm going
to weigh out, am I going to do more marketing and try to like
contribute more to the employee,you know, plan or am I going to
try to buy this CapEx? Like you're weighing all these

(01:25:14):
things out as an entrepreneur. And so I think what it's allowed
is it's allowed to go, OK, hey, I've got that back of house
thing. We can help look at CapEx as a
company, you know, in a better volume and how we approach that.
And then I can be focused on thestuff that I'm really good at
and go take care of my customer.And, and your integration ends
up being a little bit more smooth because, you know, you're

(01:25:37):
not trying to be like, I'm just going to keep buying and, you
know, buying lighting companies.And now I need to try to figure
out how to smack all this inventory together, you know,
and everybody's distros and lights and and trusses and, you
know, soccer links are different.
Yeah, You know, it's funny, I one of the, I was, I'm old
enough to have been at the beginning stages of PRG, part of

(01:25:59):
all of that. I didn't work for PRG, but I
worked for their suppliers and was very close with some of the
companies they were buying, including Bash and Vanco and
Cinema Services and all the early companies that they
bought. And watching it all and knowing
all of the people running those companies and now part of the
management team at PRGI got to see so many of the problems that

(01:26:22):
happened. And it was things like, you
know, at the time, Studio Color was, was the hot moving wash
light and really the only good alternative to AVL 5 at the
time. And so they were being used on a
lot of television shows and they'd ship them in from
multiple locations in for a big TV shoot somewhere.
And I worked for high end at thetime and I'd get the call from

(01:26:45):
the LD saying these lights are shit.
What's wrong? Well, they're all different
color temperatures, you know, because they came from 4
different locations with different lamp lights and you
know, so you had one with 100 hours on it and one with 1000
hours on it and, and it looked yellow compared to the one with
100 hours, right. So, you know, problems like

(01:27:07):
that, they just didn't know whatthey didn't know.
Different casing, different cabling, different clamping,
different, all the infrastructure was different.
And so they really learned earlyon that infrastructure is very
expensive and it's also can be very problematic when it comes
to putting a show together. You know, if you have 4

(01:27:27):
different case types going out on tour, you know that that
doesn't make a lot of sense. You know loading trucks is
pretty inefficient, so. Now we, I mean, we literally
spent, you know, a couple hours in a meeting today of us looking
at our case infrastructure, because obviously right now we
have two companies that can share that.
And so any decision we make moving forward, we want to make

(01:27:49):
sure we're doing it under that idea of how can this be?
You know, we don't want to be a situation where we're
transferring gear all the time, but we won't be able to share it
and make sure it matches when that happens.
But you're right, like you and I'm, and I'm watching Claire do
it, you know, they're, they had finally kind of gotten it.
Everything aligned and, and got MD integrated and Shoko was

(01:28:09):
integrated and all that. And then COVID happened.
Now they're buying all these andyou know, now it's that same
thing of all right. Now we're spending money back on
integration. You know it would get that
packaging right? You mentioned sharing and it was
another really funny, interesting, sad PRG story in
the early days of PRG. But they went from everyone
having your own inventory and using your own inventory to

(01:28:32):
forcing everyone basically to use each other's inventory.
And so I would get like, for example, potentially A
discounted rate if I had Vanco in Orlando and I was renting
from Cinema Services in Las Vegas.
But to ship it across the country made it more expensive
than just renting it locally from my competitor.

(01:28:55):
And they wouldn't let you rent it locally from your competitor.
You had to rent it from somebodyin the group.
And so I just remember having, did you know Marty Nerudin?
God rest his soul. So Marty I was was Marty's last
manager and Marty was just such a great guy.
Yeah, Marty was an amazing guy, but I used to sit for hours

(01:29:15):
consoling Marty over these typesof topics.
Like Marty's, like these people,they won't let me rent lights
from Christie down the block, and I'm paying $200 to ship them
across the country when I could rent them for 75, you know, and
he was right. But you know, again, it's just
problems that you've never had before that you got to find

(01:29:37):
solutions, solutions for on the fly.
You know, and you know, one of the other questions I had from
you is I, and you know, again, you can tell me none of my
business, but I'm curious when you guys are rolling companies
into this group, are you retaining the former owners?

(01:29:58):
And are they being retained as part owners still or are they
just being retained as managers or part of the group?
Or how does that all work? You know, and as far as as
everybody's kind of their deal is their deal, but the yeah,
everybody that has been in this the look, the goal that is, is
people that are that are excitedand want to do it.

(01:30:21):
So like, you know, Loud and clear came in recently.
Bill Deavers is a close friend of Jim's, does a lot of
production management stuff and Bill is gung ho and on and every
day. I mean, I've literally have been
like trying to plan the next, hey, we need to all sit down and
look through like fixed assets in your shop.
And Bill's like, OK, well, this week I'm here and then I'm on

(01:30:43):
this cruise ship doing this gig and then I'm doing this and
like, you know, I'm like, all right, well, Bill, at some
point, yeah, let me know. No, it's.
And none of this is that this isvery much of what is the
platform to help people go focuson where they want to be AT.
And and Bill is a fantastic example.
There's a 340 Productions, whichis a producing team that is

(01:31:04):
here. They do tour production.
Brian and Ryan Zito is now part of that group.
Incredible people. This is literally how can we
support you with the back of house and those guys have just
been crushing it, you know, and they're you know, they're
younger than I am and I'm youngish and they're you know,

(01:31:25):
it's just to give them. Let's take some pressure off of
you to for you to go focus on makes you exceptional.
Yeah, Yeah, that makes that makes a huge amount of sense
because I, I've been around a lot of these roll ups and it's
like a thing that happens to most founders, you know, who
have been building this businessfor the last 20 to 50 years in

(01:31:47):
some cases, right? And they suddenly don't know
what to do with themselves because someone else has taken
over their company and they are the genius who knows everything
about their company, but now they're not being asked how to
run it anymore. Or they're even worse, they
disagree with how it's being runnow.
You're doing this. These are the people that are

(01:32:07):
the reason you're wanting to do it, So why would you not?
Yeah, include them. Want these people involved?
Yeah, makes a ton of sense. It makes a ton of sense.
This company is, it doesn't matter if it was us or anybody,
this company is attractive because of these people like,
you know, getting and, and there's ones that, you know, in
all honesty, like, you know, I've they've I've seen some of

(01:32:30):
these things that have gotten thrown the way.
And there was one of them were like it.
The two founders are here and they at Max want a two year, you
know, they want to stay two years, you know, but would like
to be here less like immediately, like into the
circular filing cabinet because like, you know, OK, so
everything that worked for your company, that made you where you

(01:32:50):
want to get to where you're looking to do this goes away.
It it doesn't matter how good your succession planning is.
So I mean, it's really about this is, you know, this is a
founder LED company with a wholebunch of entrepreneur founders.
When you look at the guys that are running these divisions that
I just am very happy and lucky to get to, you know, be able to

(01:33:11):
be a part of that is working with other founders and
entrepreneurs. And it's just a platform for
entrepreneurs and founders to give them that launchpad to be,
you know, successful. That's that's amazing.
I love that approach. You know, again, I've like, I've
been on the other side where I've heard calls from both
people, like from the company that bought the the company and

(01:33:34):
from the former owner, both saying the other side's an
asshole or the other side has noclue what they're doing or the
other side, you know, lied to meor the other side, whatever.
And it's, it's always sad to me when it comes to that point
because it almost reminds me of someone who like has decided
they can't raise their kids anymore.
So they should really give them to, you know, their brother or

(01:33:57):
their sister to raise their kidsfor them.
And then, you know, both sides end up hating each other,
whatever. Like the parents should still be
in the kids lives and you know, you should support the new
parents who you've given up yourkid to raise or whatever.
But I don't know, it's just it'sa complicated situation.
It always is. So the better you can treat
those founders, I think the better off you are.

(01:34:20):
Yeah, and it's, I mean, look, it's they, I don't take it
lightly. I have through multiple
companies have have been involved with people like this
and have been very lucky to kindof learn what works and what
doesn't. And you don't take lightly this
person has built this business and has this value on it.
And you know, you see that dealsand how sometimes people value

(01:34:40):
it if you know, I've got this sweat equity in it.
But even when they're realistic,you know, it's still you have to
go in and be respectful and careful because, you know, I,
you know, in all honesty, I'm playing with house money.
Like that's been my comment. I always joke about that.
Like, you know, it's easy to work for a company and not have
to, you know, there's only been a few times in my life where

(01:35:01):
I've had to like pull money frommy account for payroll.
You know, in the tour sound VR days, you know, we were kind of
getting started. You know, for the most part,
I've always been able to work off somebody else's.
So I try to be really respectfulof, you know, when I go and be
like, well, we got to get rid ofall this stuff.
You know, it's all junk. Like, well, man, I that did a
gig and I bought that and I paidfor that.

(01:35:22):
Like, you know, you got to, you got to be careful about how you
approach these conversations. Absolutely no.
Absolutely. So I heard your daughter's
getting married. My daughter's getting married.
Yeah. Next June.
In Cape. Yep.
In Cape Cod. Nobody will give me a budget.
Like, they just keep. I just keep asking.
I keep, they keep laughing at it.

(01:35:42):
So, you know, so we'll see. How this goes?
Yikes. I'm like, I've had I've had
customers that do the same thingto me, guys like I and sales
people. I know where this is going.
Yeah, well, I always love. I always love when you ask a
customer, you know, what's your budget and they say, well, I
don't really have one. OK, well then it's half a
million and they go, well, that's way too much.

(01:36:03):
Then you do have a budget. Everybody has a budget.
Yeah, exactly. Of course.
You just don't want to be the first one to put the number out
usually, right? Yeah.
So that's going to be cool. Is that your?
That's your first getting married then?
That is my first getting married.
She just turned 25. She's been with this guy for
four years. Cool.
He's a super nice guy. Super excited for them.

(01:36:24):
That's helpful. And he's not in our industry.
He's not in our industry. And he's not in private equity.
He's not in private equity. And hopefully he's not a lawyer
either. Not a lawyer.
All right, good. Then you're safe.
I think you know, everything else is OK.
So what's what's your motto? I, you know, this, Sarah asked

(01:36:49):
me this. And I was sitting there thinking
about it, and it's kind of been all those things.
And I, you know, I wish I had something catchy like John
McBride. You know, either you rock or you
suck. That's pretty.
That is a good. One pretty known 1.
You know, I think honestly for mine, it's just for me, it's
more of I'm trying to be much more authentic and kind every
year that goes by. You know, I've, you can like me

(01:37:11):
or not, this is kind of who I am.
I try to be fair, but I think the biggest thing that I'm
trying to, it's the thing I judge my parenting by since we
were just talking about my daughter, you know, if I have
somebody that comes up to me andtalks about how kind and nice
and respectful my kids are, thenI've done a good job.
Everything else is so I. Love that.
And that's really where I just want to be like, I want to be
people of, you know, am I kind? Do I take care of people?

(01:37:35):
Am I trying to be, you know, this is who I am in my fair.
That's that's kind of where that's my motto right now in
life is just to be that. Well, and the higher you get up
the food chain in a business, the harder it is to be
remembered or recognized as thatperson because you are hiring
people, you're firing people, you're making decisions that
aren't always the most popular decisions.

(01:37:55):
You know, you're always the one who gets uninvited to the most
things because, yeah, he's mean,you know, or he's this or that.
And you know, I'm. I'm one of the kindest, most
loyal, most giving people that there possibly ever was walking
this earth. I give away my time every day
way too much to the point where my fiance now says, you know,

(01:38:18):
that I I'm crazy. Like, you know, you got to be
careful. You're always out of time.
You're always too busy for everything, you know, and it's
true. Like, you know, if you asked me
right now, hey, can you spend the next two hours explaining me
to me how to incorporate AI in, in my life?
I would absolutely do it if you said, you know, tomorrow can we
meet? I want to talk to you about

(01:38:39):
something that I'm stuck with right now that I think you might
be able to help on done. You know, I'd do it in a minute.
And so, you know, but like I said, the higher you get up the
food chain, it's easy when you're an account exec or
something to, to be loved by everyone, especially if you've
got an expense account, but you know, to be the CEO or the top,

(01:39:00):
the president, the even CEO and,and be loved by everyone.
That's that's an accomplishment.That's big.
No, and it's and, and, and trustme, I'm aware that like I, I in
my role, it is not going to be I'm everybody's bad cop for
conversations. You know, that's how it is.
It is. And so I think that's why for me
now, it's a much more conscious piece of this of I know that

(01:39:25):
that's going to be a thing in life and it's just continue
every year to become more and more a thing.
So I have to work really hard toyes, that's, that's who I am.
But I'm, you know, a good, I'm try to be a good person, try to
be a kind person. Love that and with that, I think
we shall say goodbye because I know you probably have other
things to do and I certainly do as well.

(01:39:46):
Awesome. Please, if you happen to run
into into the big cheese, let him know I said hello and he's
been on the podcast as well and just somebody I really
appreciate and and admire. So OK.
Awesome. I absolutely will.
Good, good luck to you guys. I love the company, I love the
brand, I love the name and I love what you're doing and I

(01:40:07):
love that it's still, you know, independently owned.
It's a cool thing. Not that again, I'm not against
private equity. I think it's necessary and in a
lot of certain examples, but I love when people can stay
independent as well. So.
So yeah, cool. Thank you for doing this.
I appreciate it very much. Enjoyed it.

(01:40:27):
All right, see you later.

All Episodes

#322 - Chance Stahlhut - Navigating the Future of Live Events

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#322 - Chance Stahlhut - Navigating the Future of Live Events