Gender Affirming Care: in conversation with Coltan Schoenike

In this episode of Gender Stories, Alex talks to Coltan Schoenike, (they/them) a queer, nonbinary,  trans and femme marriage and family therapist mentee, sex therapist, sex educator, doctoral student, researcher, and author.  Together they discuss gender affirming care: what it is, what it isn't, and why it is vital.

Find out more about Coltan at:
https://www.coltanschoenike.com/

You can also follow them on Twitter and Instagram @ColtanSchoenike

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Hosted by Alex Iantaffi
Music by Maxwell von Raven
Gender Stories logo by Lior Effinger-Weintraub

Episode Transcript

Musical Intro (00:01):
There's a whole lot of things I want to tell you
about. Adventures dangerous andqueer. Some you can guess and
some I've only hinted at, soplease lend me your ear..

Narrator (00:26):
Everyone has a relationship with gender. What's
your story? Hello, and welcometo Gender Stories with your
host, Dr. Alex Iantaffi.

Alex Iantaffi (00:34):
Hello, and welcome to another podcast
episode of gender stories. Thisis the first podcast episode
that we're also recording andputting out on video. So let us
know if this is a welcomeaddition. Of course, you can
still listen to gender storieson any podcast listening

(00:54):
platform, and now also on myYouTube channel. So today I am
overjoyed, excited, thrilled,you know that I truly
authentically am excited aboutevery guest. But I'm extra
excited because I'm here to talkwith Colton Schoenike who is one
of my amazing mentees. Not onlyare they a therapist in both

(01:18):
Minnesota and Wisconsin, a sextherapist, a researcher and
doctoral student. They also havea wonderful recipe book for
cupcakes called spread love andbutter cream highly recommend
it. I have tried some of thecupcake recipes and they're
amazing. Coltan, what am Imissing? You do so many things.

(01:40):
Well, what else can I say aboutyou apart from like, singing
your praises.

Coltan Schoenike (01:45):
You're really just going to challenge my
Midwest humble here.

Alex Iantaffi (01:48):
I really am. Oh,

Coltan Schoenike (01:50):
yeah. My name is Colton, Schoenike. My
pronouns are they them. As Alexsaid, I am so lucky and
privileged to be one of theirmentees. And yeah, I am a
marriage and family therapistand sex therapist, working on my
final full licensure for bothWisconsin and Minnesota

(02:11):
hopefully in the coming month.
And then I also am a doctoralstudent in couple and family
therapy at Antioch UniversityNew England, in couple and
family therapy. And then I'malso a teaching fellow, they're
in their gender affirmingclinical practice certificate,
which feels really apt and thenyeah, I bake cupcakes sometimes.
That's fun. I wrote a book once.

(02:34):
That was cool. Yeah. So Well, I

Alex Iantaffi (02:39):
think the book is delightful. And there is more
than happy recipes in it. And Ireally recommend you go get
spread love and butter cream.
But today, we're not here totalk about cupcakes, we're here
to talk about gender affirmingcare, because both of us are
therapists who work with a lotof trans non binary or gender
expansive people. And in thiscurrent climate, there is a lot

(03:01):
of misinformation about genderaffirming care. So we wanted to
kind of just clear the air alittle bit gave you some
information from the perspectiveof two therapists who are gender
specialists. I'm gonna W pathcertified gender specialist that
matter as well. And so we justwant to give you some
information, because there is alot of misinformation out there.

(03:23):
So let's start from what isgender affirming care? How would
you define a culture? And if youhad to define gender affirming
care?

Unknown (03:32):
Yeah, absolutely. And it's a really nebulous, sort of
all encompassing sperm, which Ithink is one reason why I'm so
excited to be doing research inthat area, especially so we can
sort of solidify some of theseideas. And yeah, what a time to
be doing. So in this politicalclimate. You mentioned no

(03:54):
cupcakes today. But as I thinkabout it, I'm like, that would
have been helpful to cope, as wediscussed some of the goings on
but yeah, so it's, it's reallyan all of the above and I think,
really stems from this lens ofself determination, autonomy,
social justice, really just theidea that, you know, someone is

(04:20):
saying who they are, and lettingthem speak to that, and then the
idea of gender affirmation fromthere, and then, you know, the
care components stemming into amyriad of different ways that
one may do that. And so there'smedical, social, psychological,

(04:42):
obviously the realm that wespecifically work in as mental
health care, so we're on thetherapy and, but of course, too,
as with a lot of the hot buttonarticles, there's also things
like hormones and surgery,treatments that a lot of people
have a lot of feelings about.
And And yeah, I, I often saythat, you know, there's about as

(05:02):
many gender experiences andgender identities if we get rid
of the boxes and labels andorganization and going for
closest, you know, there's aboutas many gender identities as
there are people, I'd say thesame, there's a, as many ways to
practice gender affirming careas those who need it.

Alex Iantaffi (05:24):
I love that. And, and that I think gets to one of
the key points of genderaffirming care, right, that all
gender identities andexpressions are valid. You know,
it's not just about transidentities or non binary
identities. Really, it's like,all identities are valid if
somebody is on a journey ofexploration, and then decide

(05:44):
that their identity is actuallyto be like, a sis man or a sis
woman, or even some peopleidentify as non binary, or
cisgender, expansive, like, allgender identities are kind of
valid and beautiful, and allgender expressions are valid and
beautiful. And so it's not justabout affirming some genders
above others. I think that's amisconception that people have

(06:08):
as well.

Unknown (06:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
There's this idea to have like,Oh, if we're, you know, showing
people this idea of genderaffirming care, they're gonna
get all these sorts of ideas andwhat it means and I also just
think of, you know, when I was akid, you know, 10 o'clock at
night, and there's a TV ad oflike, pills for men with low
testosterone, like, that'sgender affirming care. Even like

(06:32):
YouTube, I keep seeing a bunchof ads for like, keeps not
sponsored. But it's, you know,medication for preventing hair
loss, you know, that's genderaffirming care. You know, people
who identify as female, youknow, wanting reduction or
augmentation around theirbreasts, for whatever their
expression is, and what theywant it to be. That's gender

(06:56):
affirming care, it's whatever isaiding you and letting you tell
the world and yourself who youare and who you want to be. And
that, once again, applies totrans folks, non binary folks,
agender. Folks, you spiritfolks, just as much as it also
applies to cisgender, folks. Andthen, of course, all of the

(07:18):
other myriad beautiful, diverseexperiences outside of those
couple of labels.

Alex Iantaffi (07:25):
Absolutely. And I think one of the things that's
worth mentioning, though, isthat for some trans or non
binary or gender expensivepeople who experience gender
dysphoria, Justice versus peoplewho experience body dysmorphia,
for example, there is very mucha component that it's medically
necessary, right, there is areal distress, there is a real

(07:49):
felt emotional, psychologicaldistress. Often, it's also a
relational distress or avocational distress. That means
that it's impacting yourcapacity to work, or to engage
in the way you want to work. Andso I think it's important
because some people think, well,it's just cosmetic, right? And
so why should health insurancecover gender affirming care, for

(08:11):
example, but it is not cosmetic,it's really about a deep sense
of who we are. And it can causea lot of stress for people not
to be able to identify andexpress who they are, whatever
gender identity and expressionthey want to embody in the
world.

Unknown (08:31):
Yeah, absolutely. And also, like, Let's call a spade a
spade in the current politicalclimate, you know, there's a lot
of talk around passing andthings like that. And not to say
that passing should be anecessary goal for anyone,
everyone has their own differentrelationship with it. But for a
lot of people passing is also asafety issue as well. And so it

(08:52):
can also be to keep people safe.
If they are presenting in acertain way that, frankly, and
current climate people have somefeelings about, you know, these
interventions and these things,not only are medically necessary
for someone's own sense of wellbeing, but also for some people
may help them feel safer asthey're navigating the world.

Alex Iantaffi (09:14):
Absolutely, it might make the difference
between getting a job notgetting a job to survive under
capitalism, most of us have todo right, or being able to, you
know, move through the worldwith some level of confidence
and safety, like you said,right, whether it's for work,
whether it's for leisure,spending time with family, and
so on. And so I think it isimportant to speak to that

(09:37):
medically necessary part becausepeople think, Well, anybody can
just walk in and get surgery,even if they're minor. And we'll
talk about some of those meansand that's just not true. Right.
And so let's give some examples.
You know, I think you've alreadystarted talking about how there
can be medical interventionsthere gender affirming social
intervention, psychologicalinterventions. What are some of

(09:59):
the social things that peoplemight want to do that could fall
under the umbrella of genderaffirming care, for example?

Unknown (10:09):
Yeah, absolutely. And I appreciate the keyword might,
too, because I think it's alsoimportant to recognize that once
again, you know, everyexperience is different. And so,
you know, some people might wantor need certain things and might
not want or need other things. Iknow, for me, myself as a trans
person, like, I haven't changedmy name, like I'm out on

(10:30):
hormones or had surgery. For me,it was a lot more social, rather
than medical. And that's justwhat I wanted and needed, but
there's other people who thoseneeds are different. And that's
okay. And that's to be human.
But so gender affirming care inthe social realm. It really just
starts with support and thatself determination. And I think

(10:52):
that's one of the things that Iget most scared about with a lot
of this legislation and the, thecurrent political climate, a lot
of my client base is trans. Andso gender affirming care, even
in the social component, likeone example of social transition
is changing your name and yourpronouns, that feels correct for

(11:14):
you. And so gender affirmingcare is just using my client's
right name and pronouns. What aconcept. And as someone with a
huge client base of transpeople, if, you know, it were to
be banned in the state like, oh,I can't use my clients correct
name, because that's banned now.

(11:38):
And I could get in trouble.
What? And so, yeah, it's, itjust starts with even how you
treat your client likeinterpersonally. And then as
well as supporting them aroundthose things. And so like, if
someone is wanting to changetheir name, you know, helping
them process through theemotions and the logistics of

(12:01):
going through something like alegal name change, checking in
with them, like, okay, you know,you're socially transitioning at
work or school, like, how isthat going for you? How is it
feeling how people been treatingyou, really just being there
alongside? Through that socialtransition process?

Alex Iantaffi (12:22):
Absolutely. And sometimes, at least in my
experience, it also means beingthere through the doubts, right?
I've had clients who are like, Idon't know, if I should
transition and I'm like, That isokay to slow down, it's okay to
stop. It's okay. To You know, ifyou want to re transition into

(12:42):
your gender assigned at birth,I'm here to support you, no
matter what. And I think that'sanother misconception, right,
that I think as gender affirmingtherapists were there to support
our clients, no matter what, ifthere are doubts, if there are,
you know, further explorationsthat are needed, we're there to
support our clients throughthat. And I think that's a

(13:03):
psychological element of genderaffirming care, right? You need
space to explore. Do you want totry a name and pronoun, but
you're not sure we can try itout here? Yeah, we feel sad,
man. Maybe you have taken it outin the world that you're right.
Actually, this is not me. That'sokay. We're still here to
support you. I think that's thatpsychological support of really

(13:24):
giving the space, giving acontainer, asking the questions
we need to ask when people wantto engage in kind of medical
procedures as well, to make surethat the clients have really
process as much as possible,whatever choices they want to
make in their life in whateverdirection they choose to move,
right?

Unknown (13:44):
Yep. Absolutely.

Alex Iantaffi (13:47):
And we'll talk a little bit more about medical
interventions like puberty,suppressions, or surgical
interventions, hormonalinterventions a little bit
later. You know, why mightpeople seek gender affirming
care? You know, sometimes peopleare like, Well, why can't you
just be who you are withoutneeding, like, label, for
example, or without needing tochange anything? Right?

(14:10):
Sometimes people, sis people, Iwould say, say That's right. i
Why do you feel that some of uslook for gender affirming care?

Unknown (14:20):
Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny, my initial thought,
as I was thinking about thatquestion, and my response was,
like, if we look at certaindefinitions, like I mentioned,
you know, the idea of genderaffirming care, just being me
treating you respectfully as aperson, you know, does anyone
seek it? Or is it just everyoneis getting gender affirming care

(14:41):
all the time, because, you know,any client that you have coming
through the door, you're seeingthem for their gender identity
and respecting that, hopefully,and if you're a therapist out
there who hasn't been doingthat, maybe, you know, do some
reflection and some supervisionwork and talk about why that's
coming up. But But morespecifically, like why people

(15:02):
might seek the more traditional,quote unquote, you know, gender
affirming care, is meeting thatspace in that container, I think
you put it beautifully. And sodepending on what that person is
needing, that might differ, whatthey're going, they're seeking

(15:23):
out. For a lot of differentmedical transition procedures.
People need letters from atherapist, or sometimes the goal
coming to me might be, hey, canwe do some of the talking and
discussion and work to get thatletter if it's appropriate?
Other times, it might be muchmore exploratory, like you've
mentioned, I've had a handful ofclients who I just feel so

(15:47):
dearly good about just as muchwith my trans clients who came
in, they were like, you know,I'm not sure. But I want to just
have some space to think on itand look at it. And at the end
of it, they were like, you know,I don't think I'm trans. I don't
think I want to transition. ButI'm glad I took the space to
think about it and ask myselfthose questions. I love that for

(16:08):
you. I'm so glad. It'sbeautiful. Right? Absolutely.
It's you telling me who you arenot the other way around. And
so, yeah, sometimes it's aboutthose access pieces, like
letters, sometimes it'sexploratory sometimes, someone's
already far into theirtransition, but also just wants,

(16:29):
you know, support and to beaffirmed for who they are,
perhaps you're dealing with likework or school discrimination or
things like that, and just wanta space to be yourself. You
know, once again, a myriad ofreasons.

Alex Iantaffi (16:42):
Absolutely. And, and I think it is important to
talk about that there are somany reasons why. And there are
also so many benefits, right?
Even those clients, like the sadthat have come and taken the
space to explore, and maybe arelike, you know, actually, I'm
not trans or, you know, maybeit's just something that I want
for myself to feel this genderexpansiveness. And I don't need

(17:05):
to change anything in my dailylife. Right? I think that the
benefits are so wide ranging,right? Just from kind of the
psychological benefit of anexplorer. It's something that
questions about now I feel morepeace, all the way to lowering
symptoms of depression bywearing symptoms of anxiety,
lowering suicidal ideation, weknow that suicidality is 10

(17:28):
times higher for trans nonbinary and or gender expensive
books than it is for sispopulation. So that's obviously
a huge benefit. Yeah. Whenpeople get gender affirming care
if they're, if they'reexperiencing suicidal ideation,
that can really be reduced, andsometimes might even go away.
Any other benefits that aremissing when I think about

(17:50):
gender affirming care thathaven't been mentioned?

Unknown (17:54):
Yeah, absolutely. Um, when one other thing that I
think I, I've seen a bit of thatI think is really profound and
beautiful to see is, obviouslyour area specifically is couple
and family therapy. So also,relationships are the context of
gender affirming care. I've donea lot of beautiful work and

(18:17):
gotten to see a lot of beautifulthings where both I can give,
you know, the person the spaceto explore as needed. But then
also, those relationships, youknow, if I have, you know, a
trans kiddo coming in, gettingto make that space also for the
family to better understand whotheir kid is saying that they

(18:37):
are and help foster improvingthat closeness in that
relationship. And really beingable to be a part of that
process. And so it also canbring families and and couples
and other relational systemstogether and closer and a
facilitated experience to betterunderstand each other and hear

(18:58):
each other and see each other.
And it's just really lovely.

Alex Iantaffi (19:04):
I love that. I love that you mentioned that
because as a family therapist, Ithink that's so precious to me.
You know, I often say thatsomebody's disclosing their
gender identity, whether to apartner, or to a parent, or any
family member, or friend or coworker, it's really an
invitation into furtherintimacy, it's really taking a

(19:25):
risk and saying, I trust youenough to tell you who I truly
am. And that hopefully shouldbring people closer together. I
think initially, it can feellike a rapture. But I think that
if we can be there to supportand create the containers,
family therapist, we can reallyencourage that connection, that

(19:47):
deeper intimacy, throughvulnerability rather than kind
of Abyan that has more divisionthat sometimes people feel
initially why then we reallywant to shorten that we really
will Want to bring people indeeper connection? Generally?

Unknown (20:04):
Yeah, absolutely. And it's also just really nice,
especially with kids, I think,just because they're, well,
first off, they're kids, andthey're dealing with their own
stuff. And also to just the theway that they can be impacted by
things because of theirdevelopmental stage. It also is
just a great place to have aseparate opportunity for parents

(20:25):
to like, work with me and likeprocess their own stuff. It's
okay if you have stuff, but justprocess their own stuff and not
be putting it on their kids asthey're processing this because
it is a big change. And that'sokay. But it gives that clear,
intentional, strategic space ofthis is where you can process

(20:46):
that and do the work around it.
And then, you know, the kidisn't having to deal with the
brunt of it and theconsequences.

Alex Iantaffi (20:53):
Absolutely. And I'm so glad that we're talking
about children, because we alsoknow that for children and young
people, family support is aprotective factor. And what what
we mean, when we say it's aprotective factor is those
higher levels of depression,anxiety suicidality that we
often see, because of systemicoppression with trans non binary

(21:15):
and gender expansive folks isreduced when there is family
support. In fact, there havebeen some studies that have
really shown that with familysupport trans youth and CSU,
almost kind of no differencewhen it comes to depression,
anxiety, substance usesuicidality, all the usual kind
of symptoms of systemicoppression that lots of

(21:38):
minoritized communitiesexperienced family support makes
a huge difference. Yeah. Andyet, a lot of people say, well,
it's fine for grownups to dowhatever they want to vote. So
why can't we just wait until thechild is 18? And not just do
anything until that right? Whatwould you say to people who say

(21:59):
why can people wait untilthey're 18?

Unknown (22:02):
Yeah, absolutely. And I think we might get into some hot
takes territory, but that'sokay. You probably will. Yeah.
And, and I think that there's acouple of reasons. Number one,
there's been so much researchthat has shown that, you know,
even kids as young as you know,three, four or five, already

(22:23):
have a very solid sense of whothey are, who they want to be
their sense of identity. And,and so this idea of like, let's
have kids wait so that they canfigure it out, and no more, it
doesn't really hold water, whenyou look at that research and
that data. And so at that point,it, it feels like just having

(22:47):
someone just sit around and waitto just sit around and wait, and
there's not really any purposeor benefit behind it. The other
thing, too, that is reallyimportant because of that
timeline. And thus to is one ofthe more hot button topics is
puberty. Yeah. And so if someonehas this very set idea, this is

(23:13):
who I am, and it in whatever wayThis means differs from, you
know, what one would expectbased on you know, my body.
around puberty, there's going tobe a lot of things that are
going to start happeningtraditionally, that will
probably send someone evenfarther away from their sense of

(23:35):
self and who they are. And if wecan prevent that. Great. You
know, it's all the easier,especially to if there are
things like medical transitionthat are desired, such as
hormones or surgery.
Traditionally speaking, and alsoby narrowly speaking, as well,

(23:55):
you know, there's a lot that youhave to sort of undo, before you
can replace with adults who aretransitioning medically, of
course, this is all very overlysimplistic, of course. But you
don't have to deal with that if,for example, there's the option
of hormone blockers. And so wecan prevent some of the puberty

(24:19):
and some of the secondary sexcharacteristics being introduced
in debuting that, you know,would create all the more
problems for this person. Theother thing that's really great
about that is, you know, ifsomeone really is not sure, this
by some time, exactly. And soit's, it's just the pros so

(24:42):
monumental lessly like outweighthe cons. It's just baffling to
me. I was doing some reading andalso, there's been some other
podcasts who have talked aboutit like books, good grief books
for kids. For instance, in theirepisode about the times we're in
trans kids, that's reallydelightful. While not

(25:04):
delightful, but important. Like,of course, there's always going
to be side effects as with anytreatment, and there is some
reading and some some data toshow that, you know, there might
be like bone density concerns,for instance, with hormone
blockers. First off, there's notnearly enough longitudinal data
to actually confirm any sort ofsevere causality. And also to if

(25:27):
that's the case, okay, you know,exactly what's likely to happen.
So then offset it. Okay, hormoneblockers, and some calcium
problems.

Alex Iantaffi (25:42):
And, and I think there's actually more data that
people have saying, because andgender stories, has done an
episode with the wonderful Dr.
Kate Gaffer, and a couple ofyears ago, with, you know,
oversees the gender identityclinic at Children's Hospital
here in Minnesota. And they wereso eloquent in explaining
really, from a medicalperspective, right? That the

(26:03):
pros really outweigh the cons,because, you know, our scope of
practice is mental health. Sowe'd, like, you know, 100 wonder
too much in the medical field.
But like you said, it giveschildren often that and young
people that space to explore ifthey're not sure, it buys time,

(26:23):
and it can avoid kind of moresignificant medical
interventions later in life ifthe young person kind of
continues on a path of medicaltransition? And I say, if
because not everybody does,right. And the other thing that
was thinking about why canpeople wait until they're 18, is
you're basically asking a child,or young person to put their

(26:46):
life on hold. You're right,there's so much else that's
happening beyond gender. Youknow, we know that peer
relationships are superimportant when people are young,
like school, hobbies,activities, interest, you know,
if people are into sports, ordance, or music, right, you're
asking a child or young personto sacrifice an awful lot. Just

(27:11):
because their gender identitydoes not align with their gender
assigned at birth. And that'sit. I think that often people
think about, oh, don't don'tchange anything, but not doing
anything has an impact. Right.
And and I don't know, assomebody who's transitioning
much later in life in my early30s, I often think about what
would my life have been like, ifI transition sooner? If I'd had

(27:36):
like, my whole life to bemyself?

Unknown (27:41):
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Like, not choosing is stillchoosing?

Alex Iantaffi (27:48):
Exactly. And I think people don't think about
that.

Unknown (27:51):
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, like, as a kid, like, if
you're not doing those things,like as you like, you're being
asked to pretend to be someoneelse until you're 18. And then,
which, and then just switch itoff, which that's not how
growing and developing and, youknow, personality development

(28:12):
and all that stuff works. And soit just, yeah, it doesn't make
sense. And, and yeah, youmentioned, you know,
transitioning later in life, andyou know, what could have been,
you know, transitioning in your30s, even even myself, I came
out when I was 20. And I stillI'm just like, what could it
have been, like, you know, had Ibeen out in high school? I mean,

(28:34):
granted, there's also someconcern that maybe it's good
that I didn't present cons,right, from Brooklyn cons. Yeah,
absolutely. But yeah, justwondering, you know, what could
have been and like this, I thinkis what gets into my hot take
territory is, you know, there'sthis idea that hormone blockers,
you know, lets you pause, getsome time to, like, figure stuff

(28:57):
out. And I'm just like, Whowouldn't want that? You know,
and granted, for a lot ofpeople, maybe it's not
specifically around, you know,hormone blockers or like being
able to delay puberty, like ifyou knew yourself and your
gender identity beforehand, andyou're like, I can't wait, I'm
raring to go give me all thepuberty. Great, happy for you.

(29:21):
Maybe it is something else.
Maybe it's like, Oh, I wish youknow, I would have had more time
to figure out what I want to bewhen I grow up. I think we're
still constantly figuring thatout every day. But, you know,
everyone is gonna have theirthing that, you know, a little
more time wouldn't have hurt.
And for some kids, it's that.

Alex Iantaffi (29:41):
Absolutely. And in fact, puberty blockers were
born out of the desire to pauseprecocious puberty, which means
puberty that comes too early.
For example, when somebody'slike, eight years old, you know,
and actually, I've been asked afew times like, Well, would you
give puberty blockers to yourchild, and as a yes, absolutely,
we, first of all, if they weretrans or gender expansive or non

(30:05):
binary, and they were distressedby it, yes. And also if they hit
puberty early, and that wasstressful to them, why wouldn't
I want to release their relievetheir distress? You know, it's a
lot to ask an eight year old tomanage pubertal transitions in
third grade, it's a lot to ask Ithink and, and that's where we

(30:27):
get the data, right like that.
Those weren't even drugs, theywere made for trans people.
Those drugs were made for sincekids who are hitting puberty
early. And we know that that canbe very stressful on the body
and on the psyche, as well. Andlike you said, Who wouldn't want
to relieve that distress fortheir kid? Right? So I feel like

(30:51):
we're starting to go into thatterritory of debunking some
myths about gender affirmingcare. And so let's do it.
Because there's so muchmisinformation out there. And
we've already talked about howgender affirming care is not
about convincing somebody thatKrantz right, I think there is
this idea, you go to the genderspecialist, and they're going to
make you trans. Right. That'snot how it works. Plenty of

(31:14):
people come to see us they'restill fifth afterwards. No, I
don't know if that's yourexperience. But that's my
experience.

Unknown (31:20):
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Like I said, I have, I havequite a history with some
clients where, you know, I justwanted to explore but this was,
you know, what was right for me,and, and, okay, cool. And, and
then I have some clients where,you know, it's a big epiphany
moment, and they come to realizethis different idea of who they
are. And that's cool, too. Like,the the way I frame, a lot of

(31:44):
the work I do in therapy, and Ithink applies just the same here
is I may be holding the map withsome ideas of destinations, but
you're driving the car at theend of the day, you know? And so
if you tell me where you want togo, like I can help us kind of
get there, but you're going tomake those calls at the end of

(32:06):
the day?

Alex Iantaffi (32:09):
Absolutely.
You're the options and you getto pick whatever options work
for your life. It's an ala cartemenu, it's not a now you're on
this train, and we're going inthis direction, there is no
getting off.

Unknown (32:20):
Yeah. Yeah, it's it's not at all prescriptive, which
is funny, because I think that'sone of the other myths, or well,
not even others just kind oftagging on to what you were
saying this myth that, you know,it is so prescriptive. And in
fact, I think that they'reinstead trying to counter with

(32:43):
something that's even moreprescriptive than how they
perceive gender affirming careis being prescriptive. They
being like, a lot of these, youknow, legislative attacks. And
it's funny, because I thinkthose prescriptive approaches,
make all the more problems.

Alex Iantaffi (32:59):
Oh, absolutely.
And talk about scope ofpractice, right, we said how
important it is to stay withinour scope of practice, as
therapists and I'm like, howmuch politicians will stay
within their scope of practice?
Yep. But that is a wholedifferent conversation, right?

Unknown (33:14):
Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, I was just reading some
stuff. Cuz I'm working onediting a paper currently just
around like gender affirmingresearch practices, and, and
things like that. And one of thethings that's been a really hot
button topic right now is Dtransition and re transition.
And so you know, those peoplewho decide for themselves for a

(33:35):
myriad of reasons, you know, I'mgonna switch gears here, whether
it's a reverse direction, orjust a different direction. And
in reading some of those papers,one of the things that was
really fascinating is, like,the, the dogmatic sort of
approach and the prescriptivenature, both in what people

(33:58):
perceive gender affirming careto be. And then also, frankly,
some ways it's had to be withcertain things like different
standards, and what have you,actually makes it worse and
brings about more regret. Youknow, if I'm a trans person,
well, I mean, I am a transperson, but a different trans
person in this theoreticalscenario who's seeking hormones

(34:19):
or surgery or what have you. Youknow, okay, so I'm thinking I
might want to explore this, butthere's all these rules. There's
all this gatekeeping there's allthis like, XYZ of what needs to
happen for me to be able toapprove this or to be approved
for this. Okay, am I going tohave to start to sort of skew

(34:40):
some things or be strategic orintentional in how I'm
portraying things to be able tofit the criteria and people rush
into it. And so that's what thisresearch was finding that I
thought was really interestingis people because they feel like
they have to fit a certain moldto be able to get the things
that are To not have as much ofthe reflection with and that

(35:05):
they wouldn't be able to have ifit was just open. Because like I
said, there's so many differentways to be trans. And thus there
should be so many different waysthat might maybe qualify for XYZ
gender affirming procedure,instead of this suddenly bullet
list of, you know, DSM criteriakind of thing. Which is one

(35:27):
great way to assess, but itshouldn't be the only. And so
it's like, if we had morefreedom and more space to just,
you know, explore what's goingon for you what is the true,
nuanced, messy, but beautifuldescription of your experience?

(35:49):
And if you tell me that part ofthat is then needing this thing,
and I don't have to, like, youknow, count all the boxes of
checks, you know, there's oftengoing to be a lot less chances
of regret.

Alex Iantaffi (36:04):
Absolutely.
Because there's more space toexplore all the things that we
do explore with people when theywant surgical interventions,
right, we talked to them abouthey, have you thought about
future reproductive capacity andwhether you want to have
children? Have you thought aboutaftercare plan? This is major
surgery, who's gonna take careof you? How are you gonna make
money when you can? No work,right? Thought about the impact

(36:27):
this might have on yourrelationships with those around
you? Do you understand this isan irreversible procedure,
right? We also assess whethersomebody is capable of
consenting right? If they're anadult, or whether the family is
supportive, if it's a minor,which is much rarer, of course,

(36:47):
for surgical interventions, andwe'll talk about that in a
moment. But like you said, whenthere is this space for
exploration, then people aremuch more grounded in whatever
choice they make, right? And sothere is a lower chance of
regret, and the regret is solow, it's like one to 2%

Unknown (37:07):
people regret knee replacements.

Alex Iantaffi (37:09):
Absolutely. Then any kind of gender related
surgical intervention, it's oneto 2% is very, it's actually
very successful. Yes. In someways, right?

Unknown (37:21):
Yeah. And certain certain numbers I've seen have
been even lower to I found one,I saw one study that was like
nine point or 99 point naught,or 99.7. numbers. So yep, point
3%. Like,

Alex Iantaffi (37:37):
yeah, it's like 99.5% were happy. And then 0.3%
regret it. Yeah.

Unknown (37:43):
Right. And then even to when there are instances of
regret, which can mean a myriadof things and look a bunch of
different ways. They havedifferent conceptions about it,
and like, what is the actualthing that, you know, is
regretted? Like, a good amountof that already small? Number
is, you know, I didn't regretthe procedure. But I maybe

(38:07):
regretted picking this provideror Yeah, didn't do enough
research. But I'm glad that Idid the thing or just wish I had
better results. Not, I shouldn'thave done this procedure, or had
this change to my body.

Alex Iantaffi (38:19):
Absolutely. And even people who re transition,
not all of them regret, or evendeny their trans identity is
more like, I don't feel safe, orI cannot, for whatever reason,
and navigate this world as atrans person or as a decently
trans or non binary transperson. And that's part of the

(38:43):
retransmission. Not everybody'salso re transitioning because of
regret. Right? It's it?

Unknown (38:48):
Yeah. And even if it is a change in conceptualization
and identity, you know, not allof those cases are sort of a
backward motion. It's not likegoing back. Some people it's,
you know, this was right for meat the time. And now this
different, not necessarilyreverse, but just different
thing is right for me now.

Alex Iantaffi (39:08):
Absolutely. We're fluid, changing relational
beings, I truly believe in somany ways, and why not gender?
Right. And so we've been talkingabout this, you know, that
sometimes, surgicalinterventions can be part of
gender affirming care. And Ithink that those surgical
interventions can really amplifythe leverage and there is this

(39:29):
idea in the general public,sometimes that like six or seven
year olds, or young teens aregetting surgical interventions.
And that's just not true. No,like six year olds are getting
no medical interventions, firstof all, right, like because even
Kareem there's nothing tointervene, like even puberty

(39:50):
suppression happens at a certainstage of development. And you
can listen to the episode withDr. Gupta, who explains all
about the different stages ofdevelopment. So usually does And
until puberty starts. And thensurgical interventions are
usually for adults and tinynumber of people. I think one of
the numbers was like 200 peoplein the US over the last five

(40:12):
years, got surgicalinterventions before 18. And
usually those people are already1617. So they're pretty close to
kind of, they have familysupport, they're pretty close to
being a teen, they want to focuson other things in their life,
like getting their first jobgoing to college going to prom,
rather than gender.

Unknown (40:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
That's the other thing too,which is more. So just a product
of the way that our society isstructured. And for better or
for worse, like, when minors dotransition. They cannot do that
unless those parents are superduper supportive and willing for
them to even be able to partakein that. So literally, any

(40:54):
single miner who is going to behaving any sort of gender
affirming procedures areliterally in the best
circumstances for possiblesuccess. Yes, like, Absolutely,
we just don't have thesescenarios where it's going to be
a hot mess, because the waythings are structured as a minor
in your rights, kids aren'tgoing to be getting into these

(41:18):
things if they're not alreadyset up for the best success
possible. Absolutely.

Alex Iantaffi (41:23):
And, you know, usually this very tiny number of
young people who are usuallywell over 16, again, they have
strong parental support, andalso their people who often have
been out as trans since a veryyoung age, you know, if you've
lived as a boy or a girl, or asa non binary person, since you

(41:44):
were like, five or six yearsold, which is we know, when
people get a sense of the genderidentity. Why wouldn't you want
to like, you know, if your keepgoing in that direction, it
makes sense that you're like, Idon't want to have to do this
while I'm navigating my firstjob, or my first year of college
or university, right? I want tojust like, do, you are in a

(42:08):
marriage, I want to do thismajor surgery while I'm at home
with my parents and being caredfor my caregivers, you know, my
family support for those youngpeople kind of make sense. And
like you said, that have strongfamily support. And they're very
scrutinized, there was a lot ofscrutiny, not just by provider,
but also by insurance companies.
There's a lot of scrutiny thatgoes on for this tiny, tiny,

(42:30):
tiny number of people whoundergo surgical interventions
before 18.

Unknown (42:37):
It's also very interesting to hear we're
getting into hot take territoryagain. It's really interesting
to this sort of double bind.
damned if you do damned if youdon't, that happens with this
political climate. Because bothhormone blockers and then also
surgeries getting sosensationalized, especially

(42:59):
around minors, and so there'salready this idea, you know, we
shouldn't have kids on hormoneblockers, you know, they can't
decide for themselves, theyshould just decide when they're
older, et cetera, et cetera. Andthen we also get this
sensationalist. zation, about,like, surgical procedures, for
instance. There's a lot ofdiscussion right now of like,
top surgery, and like breastremoval is like, yeah, these

(43:21):
scare quotes all over the place,you know, young girls mutilating
their bodies and all this stuff,and it's just so gross. But then
there's the double bind thathappens, where it's like, okay,
so I'm not going to let the kiddo the thing that would prevent
necessitating this procedure.

(43:42):
And then I'm going to penalizethem and criticize them for
getting said procedure tocorrect the thing that was
avoidable because I wouldn't letthem do hormone blockers. Yeah,
exactly. And I think that tinycase study is just one shining
example of how this wholediscussion around gender
affirming care is not aboutpeople being able to be

(44:03):
confident in their bodies or allthis, like body positivity,
safety of women, internalizedmisogyny, all this stuff. It's
just about controlling bodies.

Alex Iantaffi (44:13):
Well, and we do see that because it seems to be
the same political actors whoare behind some of the Santa
trans legislation also seem tobe wanting to have a say on any
reproductive capacity, forexample, or which medications
should be accessible again,talking about going beyond your
scope of practice as apolitician, and we are totally

(44:36):
getting into how tag or takesterritory. So let's stay sorry.
Let's stay into the heartacheterritory. And let's talk about
something that is controversialand it came from just like one
research study and a couple ofpapers, but it's really taken
hold of the collectiveimaginary, which is this idea of

(44:56):
rapid onset gender dysphoria. Iwrote you EDA, which has been
vastly condemned as not a theoryby every reputable professional
and psychological likeAssociation at this point. Yeah,
let's, let's go there. Let'stalk about our GD.

Unknown (45:15):
Oh, god, okay, I need to be careful here because as I
talk about RGB, I have thetendency to burst into flames.
It's just so aggravating. Maybewe'll

Alex Iantaffi (45:24):
just have some adverse rather than full
fledged, like,

Unknown (45:28):
no cupcakes, but maybe we can do some s'mores. It's
also funny too, as a as adoctoral student in our
researching, because I seen allthis stuff, even just as a
master's level practitioner, andyou could already, you know, see
straight through it, howtransparently bogus it was. But
thankfully now as a doctoralstudent, I can also explain why

(45:50):
is bogus. Absolutely. And so itstarted off with this one fringe
paper, even looking at it still,I don't know how in a million
years it got published. Becauseit it recruited strictly from
parents did not talk to kidswere recruited from parents of

(46:11):
several notorious anti transhate sites. Yes. Like, that's
gonna be a biased sample. Idon't think that there's another
way that you could possiblyexplain it.

Alex Iantaffi (46:21):
No. And that is the definition of sample
sampling bias, actually, right.

Unknown (46:26):
Yeah, exactly. And so and also to only talk to the
parents didn't talk to the kidsat all. And now I'm at the
logical flops, right?
Absolutely. And so basically,this whole idea is portraying
dysphoria and in this idea ofrapid onset gender dysphoria as
some sort of social contagion.

(46:52):
Basically, the shortest way Ican sum it up is just trying to
find a nice medicalpathologizing researchy speak
way of saying, like, my kidssaying they're trans because
their friends are trans. Andit's just ridiculous. It's, it's

(47:13):
really interesting. One of thethings when I was reading
through that paper, for some ofthe research I was working on a
little bit ago, because I was amasochist and decided I needed
to read it. Or whatever reason.
One of the things that stood outwas, you know, it's interesting,
like the parents of kids whohave rapid on onset gender

(47:35):
dysphoria are statistically morelikely to have experiences where
their kids call themtransphobic. Sure.

Alex Iantaffi (47:47):
I am shocked RFI, that is sarcasm. Yes.

Unknown (47:50):
Right, exactly. But so it's also interesting. It's
like, perhaps I could theorizethis is solely anecdotal, of
course. But I could theorizeperhaps, if a kid recognizes
that you may have sometendencies they perceive as
transphobic they probably mightavoid telling you that they are

(48:16):
trans or feel that they aretrans until the last possible
moment. Yeah, so that might bewhy it feels sudden to you.

Alex Iantaffi (48:23):
And sometimes the moment is when puberty hits
because puberty is stressful fora lot of people, but especially
for trans non binary kids likeand young people. It's very
stressful.

Unknown (48:36):
Yeah, absolutely. And there's just so many deep seated
issues with this entire idea.
And this entire notion, also toa lot of the ways that they look
at it are so incrediblygendered, and just really gross.
And work into a lot of liketropes and stereotypes. I also
think a lot of it getsweaponized in really harmful

(48:59):
ways. Especially to because it'snot science, but yet looks like
science. And that's one of thebiggest arguments that people
try to use against transness.
And gender variance is like,what it's science, biology, you
know, et cetera, et cetera.

Alex Iantaffi (49:17):
It's actually not but that's exactly

Unknown (49:21):
that's a whole nother conversation. It's not current
people have always existed andwill always exist. So biologists
not as binary as people thinkthat right and, and everything
socially constructed and madeup. And so it's just so deep
seated, how like you can see allof the like methodological
problems like all of the ethicalproblems, all of the clear bias

(49:43):
on all of this whole approach. Imentioned bursting into flames
like a couple of weeks ago, Ihad a very similar just like,
bursting into flames from sheerrage. Because there was another
paper that came out about rapidonset gender dysphoria. Maria.
And once again, same issues withthe methodological bias the way

(50:06):
that they were sampling. It wasanother It was like they
recruited from parents of ourodd kids.com. Like what?

Alex Iantaffi (50:14):
Yeah, very problematic data. I think there
are also some ethical issueswhen

Unknown (50:19):
I was just getting into that. They also just blatantly
acknowledged in, in theirresearch that they did research
on human subjects without IRBapproval, which is like the the
No, no list of no nose.

Alex Iantaffi (50:37):
Well, because the data was already out there that
being that collected by somebodywas not a researcher, my
understanding was like thistime.

Unknown (50:46):
Like, if you really think that you found something,
which trust me are odd wouldn'tbe it, but I'll entertain it for
a second. Like if you foundsomething that you think is like
big, and like you were justgetting some data and you're
like, oh, we should make thisacademic and scientific. I'm
sorry, it sucks. But just like,go back and start over just get
new data, like having done itthrough appropriate measures,

(51:07):
like getting an IRB ethicsapproval. And

Alex Iantaffi (51:10):
exactly. Those institutional review boards are
there to protect the publicexactly. From this kind of
misinformation getting out. Soshame on the journal that
published it. But that's a wholeother story that we're not going
to get into today. Yes,

Unknown (51:25):
yes, absolutely. Be. So like I said, I just I, I, from
time to time will burst intoflames just thinking about this.
Well, and I

Alex Iantaffi (51:35):
think they're very like scientifically sound
flames, and that we're bothtrained as research. I mean, I
know you're still in training, Idon't know, I've lost count now.
Over 20 years, 30 years, almost,I'm getting hold of research,
and I've taught researchmethodology, and I can see if
wild methodology when I see it,but let's not get too technical,

(51:57):
I do want to go back tosomething that you were saying,
which I think it's reallyimportant, which is if children
and young people don't feel safeto tell a parent about their
gender identity, they will waituntil the last possible minute.
So either when, until thedistress is high enough or, or
even when they've made thatsense of themselves, because

(52:18):
they're also influenced right bythis atmosphere that maybe if
not fully transphobic at thevery least cisgender is which
means it pas you know, if usesis identity as inherently
better or superior, or morenormal than trans identities,

(52:38):
right. And there is like a lotof social discourse around dude,
parents have the right to knowif their child is using a
different name and pronoun, forexample, a school or with their
therapist, and this idea thatthe parent or caregiver as the
right again, in air quotes toknow if their child that's

(52:58):
disclose their gender identityto like a trusted therapist or
counselor or social workers or ateacher. Yeah, what what do you
think about this idea of theparents right to know?

Unknown (53:10):
Yeah, absolutely. And also to discourse is a really
nice shorthand for New Yorkopposite or New York Times.
Because they've had a lot offeelings about this for a lot of
years. And so it's just, it'sfunny, once again, to like the

(53:30):
idea of, you know, if you as aparent feel so strongly that you
should be knowing these thingsabout your kids. Even just
entertaining that as a notion,like what are you doing, as a
parent to facilitate that spacewhere your kid can come to you.

(53:51):
Because also to like, this isjust my, my bias and my
feelings, but that's probablythe better way to know things
about your kids. I don't thinkparenting as a surveillance
state often tends to go verywell. And so hopefully, most of
the ways that you know thingsabout your kids are them telling
you instead of you having tofind out and so yeah, what

(54:15):
environment are you setting upfor them to feel like they can
tell you safely, no matter howmessy unpolished you know, we
were just in a training thisweekend. And one of the phrases
I heard a lot that I just reallyenjoyed, it's like the thought
is still cooking. Like, whatwhat atmosphere are you creating
for your kids to be able to tellyou like, hey, this thing is

(54:37):
still cooking, but like, here'swhat I'm thinking about, you
know, just having some thoughtsbefore the last minute. And of
course, like I said to you,that's even entertaining. You
know, the idea if there is thisinherent like ordained rights to
know which also is a wholenother can of worms and I think

(55:00):
I think as, as a parent, and ofcourse, you I'm going to
acknowledge my own positionalityas not a parent and have not
having had that personalexperience. But for parents, I
think it's probably better andmore helpful to know what's

(55:20):
going on in your kid's life andfor them to tell you those
things. But I also think, Idon't think always, but I do
think quickly, these ideas ofparental rights around knowing
these things about your kid andyour entitlement to knowing
these things, very quickly cantransform into discourse that

(55:40):
suggests kids as property ofparents.

Alex Iantaffi (55:44):
Absolutely. And, you know, and as I'm a parent,
as well, yeah, many therapistsI'm gonna put my parents hat on.
And, first of all, you know, Ihope that everything that I do,
as a parent, illustrates thatAdam pain as a parent, I own my
children that I think that's avery challenging way of thinking

(56:06):
about parenting, let's say, butalso, if, if either of my
children discloses something toanother trusted adult, and then
I found out later, my first partis, I'm so glad that you had
somebody you trusted that youput down this true. And second,
then I will ask myself, Have Idone anything to make you feel

(56:27):
not unsafe, or not confident indisclosing this information to
me, not because I'm upset, butbecause I want to be a better
parent. So if there is somefeedback that I need to receive
as a parent, that somehow I'vecreated an environment where you
couldn't tell me something? Thatthat's the conversation that I
would like to ask not like, Oh,my God, why did you tell this

(56:50):
person and not me? I'm yourparent, right? We'd be like, I
am a hey, I'm so glad you askedsomebody you trusted, be like,
is there anything I could havedone differently to create a
better atmosphere which you feltsafe and competent to disclose
whatever it is that you want todisclose to us?

Unknown (57:06):
And also to like, is you not knowing something as a
parent, even automatically anegative value judgment?
Absolutely. There's plenty ofreasons like, as a, as a sex
therapist, it was quick into myadult life that I heard from my
mom, you know, like, Honey, youknow, you're making your father
uncomfortable at dinner. And solike, there are just things that

(57:32):
parents might not need to know.
And that's not necessarily aninherent value judgment on them,
or their safety to tell likemaybe they're on the list and
just in a different order. Likeone of the things that's, you
know, really big in, like theseop eds, for example, in the New
York Times is kids sociallytransitioning at school and
whether the school is requiredto tell the parents about that.

(57:53):
Yeah. First off, I think itopens a whole can of worms
around safety issues withabusive households. Absolutely.
But even to like putting thataside for now, and just talking
about, like, the right to know,and things like that, like, Has
anyone asked why the kid hasn'ttold the parents like, maybe,
and I'm sure that this is not arare occurrence. Like, maybe the

(58:15):
kids just trying it out atschool and like, workshopping
it. Yeah. Before they decide totell their parents like maybe
they're like, hey, I want tojust like play around with this
and see first and have a betteridea. And be more sure. Because
I really care about my parents,and also their feelings toward

(58:37):
me are of value to me. And I, Ialso don't want to scare them
with the ambiguity of me notknowing so I just want to have a
better idea first. Oh,

Alex Iantaffi (58:50):
yeah. It doesn't have to be a negative.
Absolutely. And, you know, as,as a parent, who's also sex
therapist, and where noconversation is outside at our
dinner table. You know, it'salso like, you know, it's okay
to let your children and youngpeople have some autonomy, of
exploring, like, I'm an oftenwhen I work with parents, I

(59:13):
talked to them and I say, didyou have her have something that
you wanted to explore foryourself? Are you wanting to
keep to yourself, when you werea teenager that you didn't
necessarily want to share withyour parents? And 99% of parents
are like, Oh, yes. And I'm like,so your kid also might have had
some things and sometimes thatthat one of those things, is

(59:35):
gender identity that they wantedto like, cook for themselves, or
cook with some other people tostay with that metaphor, until
it was ready to be presented toyou right? Because I think it's
so easy for parents to feel outof control. And I think I wonder
if that's one of those thingswhere parents are starting to
feel out of control, and so theywant to regain some some form of

(59:58):
control of their child.

Unknown (01:00:00):
So yeah, and also to like, once again, not a parent.
So this may differ if I were tobe in that position, but you
know, of the various things thatmy kid could be hiding from me
good, bad, indifferent, worse,like them trying out a different
name or pronouns at school isthe least of my concerns.

Alex Iantaffi (01:00:21):
Oh, absolutely.
And a lot of people use adifferent name than their name
that were signed up. If you meaneven with my health. That's one
point, we had a conversationwhere she was like, I don't like
my name. I was like, you canchange it if you want to.

Unknown (01:00:32):
Yeah, yeah, it makes me think of this thing I saw a
million years ago at this pointwhere like, memes from your
parents are a gift. And so ofcourse to if you don't like it
like, parent, probably as wellnot even probably just is valid
to have some feelings aboutthat. But all the same, it is a
gift, and thus, the person isnot obligated to keep it.

Alex Iantaffi (01:00:57):
And it's a gift that's given to somebody you
don't know yet. Like when I waschoosing the name for my eldest
is Molly biocat. So I didn'thave a hand in choosing the name
of my child. But when I waschoosing the name of the my
child, one of my children youknow, I didn't know her yet. And

(01:01:18):
so you make your best guessbased on your own needs, your
own wants your own ideas, andthen this little being comes
into the world and they'rethemselves. And then they tell
you they are and sometimes thatdoesn't match, and that's okay.
Like, you know, we've, we'vegiven you this gift, and we made
our best guess that thishopefully will suit you, my baby

(01:01:39):
doesn't and that's okay.

Unknown (01:01:41):
And, and also to like, on on the reverse as well. Like,
if we go with this, like overlysimplistic idea that like a lot
of trans people want to changetheir names and things like
that, like I for one is someonewho has all reason where I
should quote unquote, want tochange my name. I actually
really like it. Exactly. Solike, cool. Like, it was, it was

(01:02:06):
one thing you picked, right,mom? Like, there were a couple
other things that, you know, theguest was incorrect. Like, I
think about my parents, youknow, laughing about my dad's
side of the family joking. Youknow, everyone stops once they
have like, one of each. And it'sjust me and my sister. So they
joke that, you know, they theygot out of the way early, and
then I messed it up. Plot twist.
Yeah. So like, you know,guessing some other things, you

(01:02:30):
know, didn't land as much. Butactually, you nailed the name.

Alex Iantaffi (01:02:36):
Yeah, there you go. Exactly. And sometimes also,
when you give young people theoption to explore, you know,
like, with my kid, I was like,Yeah, change your name, you
should want to they were like, Ithought about it. I didn't feel
that strongly about it. And I'mlike, oh, no, exactly.

Unknown (01:02:50):
And that goes back into the the idea that like the
number one thing that we can do,if we are really truly concerned
about like kids making the wrongdecision, or regret rates or
things like that, the best thingthat we can do is encouraging,
especially around the area ofsocial transition, a safe space

(01:03:10):
to just try it out.

Alex Iantaffi (01:03:12):
Absolutely. Just play. Yeah. I mean, it's okay.
And you're supported, no matterwhat your love, no matter why
you're supported care for nomatter what. I feel like that
this conversation for a longtime, but I want to be
respectful of your time. I dohave one kind of last question
that I want to close on, whichis, what do you see them? How do

(01:03:35):
you see the impact of thiscurrent kind of political
climate and this increasing,increasing wave of anti trans
legislation impacting transfolks around you, whether it's
clients or focusing community? Iknow, I've noticed that it's
definitely having an impact. Andso I was wondering if you've
noticed that too.

Unknown (01:03:54):
Yeah, absolutely. And seen and lived, of course, you
know, from our own rooms astrans people too. And, and of
course, I have the the uniqueexperience of both being a
person of live trans experienceas well as a provider of gender
affirming care. So this kind ofdouble whammy is, you know,
personally and professionally.
But it's a lot and it's a lot gomuch and it's so heavy and and

(01:04:20):
the thing that particularlybothers me is like if we think
about privilege and the idea ofprivilege and the things that
people take for granted thatthey don't have to experience so
many people in this case, youknow, sis, people don't have to

(01:04:42):
wake every day seeing countlessnews articles, seeing countless
videos, treating theirlegitimacy and right to exist as
a political debate.

Alex Iantaffi (01:04:54):
Yes.

Unknown (01:04:57):
And that is heavy. And like it or like, I'm in my late
20s. Like, that already justsucks. And like, I've been in
my, like gender identity foralmost a decade, like, it sucks.
But then I think about the kidsdealing with this and having to

(01:05:19):
watch this every day and seethis every day and also see it
inform how some people may ormay not be treating them because
of course, this also justemboldens a lot of bullshit,
frankly, in interpersonalrelationships and from their
peers. And it just is gross.

Alex Iantaffi (01:05:42):
And, yeah,

Unknown (01:05:43):
that just gets back to that controlling bodies deciding
that we should tell others whothey are instead of us getting
to, to name our own selves,literally and metaphorically.

Alex Iantaffi (01:05:55):
Absolutely. Yeah.
No, I think about that, too. Imean, it gets me down. And I'm,
you know, I mean, my 50s havebeen out for almost 20 years.
Now let's dress as like, is itreally the longaniza? Yeah, it's
getting there. And wow, youknow, out to the world. 15
years, but you know, there's alltheir stages, right, that we go

(01:06:16):
through? Yeah, if this is heavyfor me, and I'm a mental health
provider, I have a lot ofsupport at home. Yeah, you know,
as a caring family, caringpartners, caring kiddos, what is
it like for like a 12 year old,a 10 year old, a 13 year old to
be under this barrage.

(01:06:38):
transphobia, especially if theyare not supported at home, my
heart really breaks. And when Ithink about that,

Unknown (01:06:45):
yeah, and as we mentioned before, like, half the
point of like, the blockers andother things is the fact that
kids are already dealing with somuch. So then you add all this,
yes. And it just sickens me tomy core that so much of the
rhetoric around this is aroundprotecting children, and for

(01:07:09):
children's well being and thingslike that. And it's like, if you
just would read or look at eventhe littlest bit of science or
talk to a professional, or Godforbid, talk to a person. Yeah.
Like, talk to a trans person.
Like, I mean, this podcast iscalled Gender stories, you know,

(01:07:33):
we we all have these stories.
And if you would just hear one,yes. With an open mind and open
heart, like just seeing youdon't trans people or people.
It's, it kind of gets into whatI was talking about at the
beginning to where it's like,like, it's so special getting to

(01:07:54):
provide something as beautifulas gender affirming care, but
also at the same time, like,there's simultaneously this
weird thing where there'snothing really special about
gender affirming care, becauseit's just pair

Alex Iantaffi (01:08:04):
shooting all care be affirming of

Unknown (01:08:08):
me treating you as a person and letting you say who
you are. And, and yeah, so

Alex Iantaffi (01:08:14):
yeah, that's one of my elders would say, it seems
like it's just good manners.
Yes.

Unknown (01:08:20):
Absolutely. Yes. Yes, good manners.

Alex Iantaffi (01:08:26):
I always ask, is there anything that we haven't
covered that you absolutelywanted to make sure that you
talked about in this episode?

Unknown (01:08:36):
I think just recognizing that it is really
heavy, it's really gross rightnow. It's a lot. And I think
it's a time not that any timehas been any different. But I
think just now all the moresowhere we have to be scared and
brave simultaneously. And so Ithink to the trans folks

(01:09:00):
listening and other genderdiverse folks, you know, just
keeping on keeping on andknowing that you have community
and people around you who loveand support you and then for the
CES, people and the allies andadvocates and accomplices, as my
colleague John Thune likes tosay, step the hell up. We need

(01:09:24):
you like a lot right now. Callyour people get things
happening. I see the story nowand again of that, like one
congressperson who's beenfilibustering for like four
weeks now or something likeiconic behavior, you know? Now
is the time to not be quiet andjust sit and watch on the

(01:09:47):
sidelines, like, get into it.
You know, I saw things you werewith like if you're, if you
claim to be an ally and aren'tgetting hit by the rocks thrown
at us, you're not standing closeenough.

Alex Iantaffi (01:10:02):
That's a beautiful way to put it.

Unknown (01:10:04):
So good

Alex Iantaffi (01:10:07):
time to be accomplices as many indigenous
movement organizers leaders sayrather than allies, right?
Absolutely. Well, thank you somuch. Colton has been such a
pleasure to have thisconversation with you. If
listeners want to get ahold ofyou so you can provide a
training on gender or to contactyou or to buy your beautiful

(01:10:30):
books. buttercream. Where couldthey find you? Yeah,

Unknown (01:10:34):
so you can find me? My website is just Colton
janicki.com You probably willstruggle to spell it. So just
look at the description of thepodcast episode. Well

Alex Iantaffi (01:10:44):
put in the episode. Don't worry.

Unknown (01:10:47):
Yeah, so Colton chanakya.com. And then all the
same to you can follow me atColton Janicki on Twitter. So.
Yeah, and Instagram.

Alex Iantaffi (01:10:57):
Yeah, as far as long as Twitter lasts, who
knows? Yeah. So thank you somuch again. And for all you
listeners, I hope that thisepisode, gender stories was
informative. And if you are asalesperson who's listening and
you want to do more, there areso many ways to engage and I'll

(01:11:19):
put a couple of those ways toengage and keep up to date with
what's happening in the episodedescription. So thank you again,
culture and what a pleasure tohave you and that and thank you
listeners and viewers, maybeanother year if you're on
YouTube, for listening orwatching this episode. Until
next time, bye