Masculinity in Transition with K. Allison Hammer

K. Allison Hammer is assistant professor and coordinator of women, gender, and sexuality studies at Southern Illinois University. 

Masculinity in Transition traces the roots of “toxic masculinity,” showing that while toxic strains of masculinity are mainly associated with straight, white men, trans and queer masculinities often reiterate similar patterns of behavior. Arguing that these malignant forms of masculinity can be displaced, K. Allison Hammer’s bold rethinking lays bare the underlying fragility of normative masculinity.

Link to more information about the book or to order: 

https://www.upress.umn.edu/book-division/books/masculinity-in-transition 

 

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Episode Transcript

Alex Iantaffi (00:03):
Hello, and welcome to another episode of
gender stories. And I, as ever,I know I'm always excited, but I
really am excited to be talkingtoday with Professor K Allison
Hummer, who is assistantprofessor and coordinator of
women Gender and SexualityStudies of Southern Illinois
University, as well as havingpublished a book that I think

(00:25):
just came out yesterday,actually October 17. Masculinity
and transition, which I'm veryexcited to be talking with
Allison about. They've alsopublished extensively in
academic journals, ranging fromDisability Strategy studies,
trans studies, gender studies,masculinities, and have a
forthcoming book chapter on bookbanning so many things that we

(00:48):
could talk about. And that we'reeven going to talk about the
board, the Barbie movie, littlespoiler for you, listeners, or
those of you watching onYouTube. So welcome. Hi, listen,
thank you for making time forthis podcast today.

K. Allison Hammer (01:01):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so
excited. I love the show. AndI'm just thrilled to be here.

Alex Iantaffi (01:08):
It's wonderful to have you here. It always makes
me miss academia and a littlebit when I talk to other
scholars. But then I talk tocolleagues and I remember what
life is like, and it's shortlived.

K. Allison Hammer (01:21):
Yeah, it's just such a thrill to be sort of
outside of that frame to to justbe able to have a conversation
where we can put my ideas likeinto a different frame and talk
like really?

Alex Iantaffi (01:33):
Absolutely, yes, yes. I'm excited about that,
too. So I really want to talkabout your book, masculinity in
transition. But first of all,let's talk about masculinity
studies, I remember that, youknow, that the emergence of
masculinity studies, you know, avery long time ago, I used to
teach in what used to be women'sstudies, actually, at the time.

(01:56):
That's what my doctor is. And Iremember people having actually
pretty conflicting feelings insome ways around the field of
masculinity studies as itemerge. And so for the listeners
who don't know what that is,what, what is the field of
masculinity studies?

K. Allison Hammer (02:11):
Yeah, I think it really emerged, like out of
some of the men's movementactivity in the 70s. So that's
some of the root systems likewhere men were trying to sort
of, like, reclaim theirmasculinity, but also like, kind
of critique it, but not really,and a lot of it was in the White
sis hat framework. And so a lotof that field also developed

(02:33):
differently from likemasculinity and queer theory. So
we have each set Eve Sedgwick,coming out talking about
masculinity, we have sort ofJack Halberstam coming out
talking about masculinity. Butthose two fields really
developed pretty separately fromone another. And so I think
there's a move recently, and,you know, one of my mentors,

(02:57):
scholar mentors has been veryactive and trying to change the
direction of the field, tryingto make it more comparative,
trying to make it more inclusiveof diverse masculinities. And so
I think there are changes, but Ithink it's, it's very stubborn,
to move out of that frame. Andto have also some interplay

(03:19):
between the study of Trans andQueer masculinities. And whites
has had masculinities. So that'sa little bit of the basics of
where the field has been. But Ithink like I said, it's moving
in a really different direction.

Alex Iantaffi (03:32):
It really is, I mean, even compared to say, Oh,
my God, how long ago did I startdoing my PhD? Fair two years
ago, almost, you know, when Iwas initially women's that is, I
feel like, a lot of the critiquewas that like, are actually men
truly engaging in deconstructingmasculinity? Or is this just a

(03:53):
way to perpetuate a lot of thiskind of similar systems right,
of oppression? And I'm one ofthe things I love about your
book is that it does reallybring into conversation, you
know, trans studies withmasculinity, the studies, Queer
Studies, he addresses capitalismand addresses kind of, you know,
how we cannot talk about genderwithout talking about race,

(04:16):
right? It's a beautifulintersectional book, I think. So
what kind of moved you to kindof write this book, right, there
are so many things that we focuson in our style you wanted to
show it

Unknown (04:32):
came yesterday, and I think the spine like really
resonates very nicely with thiskind of media slider here. I
love this feature that theyadded to it. So this is the real
live object. I love it. Idefinitely want to talk about
that. I think that you know, myinitial interest in masculinity
came out of female masculinityand sort of my own doorway into

(04:56):
thinking of my own relationshipto masculinity, which is You
know, my coming out story isvery long, but starts kind of
late in life and took manytwists and turns. But my initial
coming out as a lesbian reallytook place through female
masculinity through JackHalberstam work, which that book
just changed my life. I mean, atthe time, when I read it, I

(05:19):
really didn't know what it meantfor me. And it took a while to
kind of see where it would go.
And then, you know, when I cameout as a lesbian, I was in a
straight marriage, and then cameout as a lesbian, and that had
many twists and turns as well.
And then, you know, came out asnon binary around 2018. And, you

(05:42):
know, for, for me who, you know,I'm 49. So that word was not
present at all, like, oh, it wasno understanding of non binary
like, I think like kids todayhave such the wonderful, rich
vocabulary for talking aboutgender and sexuality that I
didn't have. And so coming outas non binary also dovetailed

(06:04):
with things happening with me,too, and the culture. And what
happened around me too, andtoxic masculinity being such a
topic. I mean, you were sendingme articles about masculinity
all the time. But in a lot ofways, it was kind of a Redux of
what we see in masculinitystudies, a lot of it was about
white men, and how they could dobetter. Right? Like I remember

(06:27):
Anna sales on Deus Ex moneyPodcast coming out with an
episode called manhood now,where she interviewed all of
these men about like, well, whathave you learned, you know, to
do differently, and it was kindof, you know, very shallow, you
know, it doesn't really get to,you know, the critique of white
supremacy or the critique ofhetero patriarchy. But one thing

(06:50):
I thought about as well, whyaren't queer and trans
masculinities considered part ofmasculinities tests? Like, why
are they separated out so much.
And one thing that happened thatreally transformed me was a
class that I taught on criticalmasculinity studies. And it was
right at that 2018 moment whereBrett Kavanaugh was being

(07:10):
confirmed. And we watched thoseconfirmation hearings together.
And it was just kind of, youknow, the word patriarchy
started to be used again, whichhad been really retired.
Absolutely, I was too blunt.

Alex Iantaffi (07:28):
I heard that word in a long time. And all of a
sudden, it was everywhere onsocial media. Yes.

Unknown (07:33):
Right. Yeah. And so the class though, was really
interesting, because they wereall different kinds of people.
You know, there were black men,there were trans men who are non
binary folks, black women, whitewomen, international students,
it was almost like, everyonewanted to talk about this. And I

(07:53):
think it became really importantfor me to situate it within the
culture itself, and not off insome side territory of queer and
trans SNESs. But to really putit into conversation of like,
what do queer and transmasculinities offer, they offer
quite a lot, I would say, forundoing normative toxic

(08:17):
masculinity. And so that was alot of it came out of that
moment, really, the direction ofthe book took off from there.

Alex Iantaffi (08:25):
I love that. And you mentioned toxic masculinity.
So for our listeners who maybedon't know what that means, how
would you define toxicmasculinity? Or how would you
describe the idea of toxicmasculinity?

Unknown (08:40):
Right, that's a really good question. Um, you know, I
really critique the term in mybook, because one of the things
that happened out of me too, isthat it became about, you know,
putting on trial, various badapples, and those were the toxic
ones, or it was really theextreme ones who are toxic. When

(09:03):
I really think it's aboutlooking at, you know, the more
daily kinds of violences thetoxic masculinity, you know, is
all about. And for me, it camedown to really three areas. So I
talked about normativemasculinity instead of toxic for
that reason, because I thinkthat toxic really pushed us in a
direction of thinking aboutTrump quite a lot. Yeah, Jeffrey

(09:27):
Epstein, you know, these menthat we can also talk about what
actually changed for me too,which I think is a really
important thing to consider, andwe can talk about it in light of
the Barbie movie or whatever.
Like, you know, I think that thetendency there was to want to
incarcerate too and that was thesolution was incarcerate, and

(09:47):
then we'll be rid of it. Butthat's not how toxic masculinity
works. Like if you think of theterm toxic, it spreads

Alex Iantaffi (09:59):
exists At least it's like a poison, right? It's
like something toxic in the air.
I often describe like, you know,cisgender ism or transphobia.
Like the air we breathe, right?
It gets into our lungs into ourbody minds, and we just
reproduce it without eventhinking about it. And so that
toxicity that's in the air fromnormative

Unknown (10:21):
I love that idea that you breathe it in even you do

Alex Iantaffi (10:26):
you breathe it in Africa, you know, to me, that's
how it feels, right? The wordsthe culture, the songs, the
movies, the intergenerationalfamiliar patterns. I mean, I'm
passionate about it that wrote abook called Gender trauma. I
love this idea that oh, right.
It's part of that kind ofongoing settler colonial
project. And I love that youhighlighted the normativity

(10:47):
aspect, right? Because in a way,I really feel that this idea
that well is just those men overhere, we're doing the harm. And
if we get rid of that, or if weimprison them, then everybody
else will be okay. Is a verycolonial white supremacist idea,
right? It's an all or nothinggood, or bad perpetrators and

(11:08):
victims, all this binaries,something that I'm also not a
big fan of, obviously, in everyway. And I think that's one of
the things I love about yourbook that you challenge some of
those binaries. You know, whenwe really look at kind of toxic
masculinity, it's not aboutimprisoning a few men, or a few

(11:30):
bad apples or teaching boys todo better. It's really
questioning the whole system ofmasculinity. Right?

Unknown (11:41):
Exactly. Like that's, that was one of the main sort of
takeaways from that wholemoment. And it really, in my
opinion, and I could be wrong,but in my opinion, it really
faded also, until maybe Barbie.
I mean, maybe the Barbiemovement is like a resurgence of
me, too.

Alex Iantaffi (12:00):
That is possible that I love that idea. Because
you're right in that moment. Andthat that me too moment was so
intense in so many ways. I knowthat for me, and a lot of other
folks, so many survivors islike, it's a lot, right. It was
also a lot because it waseverywhere. The trauma was

(12:20):
everywhere. People were sharingstories everywhere. I know, I
had a lot of clients who alsowere like, This is a lot because
it's everywhere. And so I'mconstantly exposed and
constantly rethinking also aboutthe trauma. And then your race
seems to also almost haveresettled into more fascism,
right? More fascism, more whitesupremacy, more, you know,

(12:45):
promotion of violence tostopping violence, like through
police brutality, like thebuilding of cops CD and all of
that. And so, yes, I don't know,I do want to shift into talking
about now. But I wonder whatyou've noticed in that moment,
you know, that kind of rise andfall? And do you feel in some
ways, what we saw was alsopushed back. Right. Okay. Now

(13:09):
you've had this moment. We'redone. Now, things are back to
normal, right?

Unknown (13:16):
Absolutely. And I think, you know, one of the
things that I've been thinkingabout lately is how the response
from SIS men was sort of rangedfrom guilty to defensive to
rageful. Yes. And so theseonline cultures of grievance,
we're building and building.
And, you know, I don't talkabout this explicitly in my

(13:39):
book, but I think it's possiblethat it built even toward the
January 6 coup attempt, youknow, because a lot of what
these paramilitary groups wantis they want women to return to
the home, they want to return tothe traditional 99% of the time,
white families, like they want areturn to sort of women focused

(14:01):
on on having children and havingbabies and taking care of their
every need. And I think thatthere was a simultaneous sort of
escalation of these cultures ofrage. At the same time that we
see a really powerful movementof people, you know, not just
this women, like many people, asyou said, sharing their stories

(14:24):
coming forward, you know, butI'm wondering also, if people
felt like they were hurt. Youknow, like, I think that's one
of the issues. There's did fewpeople feel heard and then where
did that go from there? Like,did it just sort of get
repressed on the larger scaleagain, you know what I mean? And
the guilty the men who areguilty about it, like there's a

(14:47):
wonderful book by Jane Wardcalled the tragedy of
heterosexuality where she trackshow, you know, it was a
rebranding right Formasculinity, it changed from
sort of the art of seduction tothe art of personal
transformation. And it was sortof like now like, I still have

(15:08):
people sending me articles aboutlike men's groups are trying to
like, you know, express theiremotions together like in a, in
a sort of secluded woodsyenvironment. And it's sort of
like, you know, that was part ofthe men's movement of the 70s as
well, every time it sort of goesback to not a sort of

(15:30):
deconstruction, but areclamation, of masculinity,

Alex Iantaffi (15:38):
you know, Reclamation, that's often so
inappropriate in so many ways,because it's often says why men
also appropriating kind ofcultural traditions, like sweat
lodges in the 70s and 80s, youknow, or like, talking sticks or
like connecting with, like,animal spirits. And it's really

(16:02):
like, what sometimes when I lookat some of this information, I'm
like, okay, as a therapist, yay,people are connecting with one
another in themselves. But thisis so toxic and problematic, and
so many that are just like,

Unknown (16:19):
No, yeah, particularly the sweat lodge idea. And
someone just sent me an articlelike a few weeks ago about
another men's group that engagesin these similar kinds of
things, you know, and thewhiteness aspect, like I said,
Yeah, it's predominantly whitemen. And I think, regardless of

(16:40):
the intentions, like I thinkthat anytime a group of sis men
get together, it's usually notgood. Like, in large numbers,

Alex Iantaffi (16:49):
absolutely.

Unknown (16:51):
Eternity right there.

Alex Iantaffi (16:54):
That is a fraternity right there. And
it's, like, so problematic, andhow men can also bolster each
other to justify violence,right? Or to justify investment
or to justify just that. Yes,then normative masculinity that
is so hard for them to let gooff? Because why let go of

(17:17):
power? Right, when you canrebrand out? Yeah,

Unknown (17:21):
and right. And the culture sort of supports that in
all these ways. And politicssupports it. I mean, I think
that, you know, the sense ofloss that my students felt after
the overturn, of Roe vs. Wade,like, you know, they called me
with such grief, because I thinkthat they felt this sense of
failure, you know, that, like Isaid, only a few years prior, I

(17:43):
think there was a moment oflike, we're going to, we're
going to, we're going to addressthis finally, like, we're going
to address the issue of sexualdomination and sexual assault,
like, we're going to changethings, you know, and there were
flaws, many, many flaws withinit, as there are flaws within
every social movement, everyfeminist movement. And I, I
take, I take that, and Iunderstand that. But I do think

(18:07):
that around the topic, like Isaid, with this class, it was
like, people were really wantingto have intense discourse about
it across all these differentinvestments in masculinity, all
these different kinds ofinvestments and masculinity. And
I don't know, I haven't taughtthat class in a while. And I
don't know if if there wouldstill be that same fervor around

(18:29):
it. And I think that's becausethere is so much loss post row
and now with this just insaneassault on trans people, trans
and non binary people, like, youknow, so we have BLM, and, you
know, it's just, I think, Ithink we're all there's we're

(18:50):
all feeling, you know, not theroyal we, but I think we're like
there's a sense of justcollective grief right now, and
not knowing what comes next, iswhat I'm sensing.

Alex Iantaffi (19:02):
Absolutely. Which makes sense, because it's this
kind of pooling, you know, oneon one, and we have this kind of
rise of fascism again. And atthe same time, we also have this
tension pulling towards justice,right? Whether it's
abolitionism, whether it is youknow, reproductive rights,
whether it is body autonomyrights for everyone, including

(19:23):
trans folks, we're really seeingthis kind of moment of tension
and uncertainty. And, and Ithink there is a lot of grief, a
lot of fear and, and often outof fear. There's also extreme
reactions, which I think we'reseeing in the world right now.
And in the middle of all ofthis, there's also popular

(19:44):
culture that keeps making thingsright. So let's go there. Let's
talk about the Barbie moviebecause I think in a way, I was
really pleasantly surprised, youknow, and I have to say, as
somebody who has a more queermasculinity Who really enjoyed
dressing my Barbies and doingmusical theater? I would have

(20:05):
definitely been Oh, me too,right. I was like, I was growing
up and I really wanted a BarbieKamkar more than anything when I
was like six or seven years old,right and like little plasticky
one. And so I was both excitedand fearing the Barbie movie
because at the same time thenwhen I became a parent, I was

(20:26):
very anti Barbie, right? Becauseat that point, I was like, I was
a feminist and very queer. And Iwas like, Barbie is not a
realistic representation ofwomanhood. I remember you know,
when my kid was no actuallyyoung adult and no, as I tell
the stories, you know, we're inthe middle of the coop doing
grocery shopping and she hadthis Barbie that are of course

(20:47):
there were uncle's gave her awhole set of Barbie Disney
princesses, just to see my faceon her birthday. You know, and I
was saying anything aboutBarbie. And she goes, I know, I
know, this is not what realwomen looks like that it's my
doll doll. And it's okay. And Iwas like, Yes, honey, it is
okay. It is also just a doll, adoll that you can play with. But

(21:09):
it's more than that. Right? Andso the Barbie movie that came
out and it was so different thanI think many people expected.
What did you think about it?
Definitely.

Unknown (21:21):
I mean, I felt very seen like that. And I also
really love Barbie. What'swhat's funny is that my parents
wouldn't get me any of the dreamhouse or that was a car, the
spies have to go to my friend'shouse. And she had an ad, where
she had all of it laid out. Itwas just, and I used to make my
Barbies like houses out of shoeboxes. And I would color them

(21:47):
and stuff like that, because myparents didn't want to, they
would they would allow a bar Ionly had one can, which is kind
of funny. I always ask peoplelike, how many cans did you
have, though? I just had the oneand he was just sort of, I don't
know, drove drove people around.

Alex Iantaffi (22:02):
Like the chauffeur. Any cans. Right? What
I think about it was all barbus.
So

Unknown (22:08):
I just had one and he didn't get much attention, which
is funny. Because that's kind ofyou know, because Greta Gerwig
is so interested in talkingabout girlhood. I mean, we have
lady Burj such a fantastic film.
But I think that the there's somany things to talk about with
the movie, but like Gloria'srelationship, like Gloria, the
woman, who you know, is the onehaving the sad feelings, and she

(22:31):
has to go repair the space timecontinuum by going like Barbie
has to go back to, you know, tohelp Gloria to heal and help the
relationship with her daughterto he'll like, you know, Gloria
has a line where she's like, youknow, if it's this hard, you
know, for you as a doll, likejust representing a woman. Like,

(22:52):
what does that say about whatit's really like to be a woman?
I'm not quoting the line.
Exactly. And I think that, youknow, we can talk about how
Barbie has been, like, you know,potentially destructive for
little girls, but I think at thesame time, or, or, you know, gay

(23:13):
men also have a total thing forBarbie and like a lot of Barbie
but is it? Is it embracing theideal? Or is it embracing some
kind of hi feminists. That is,maybe I love the trans critiques
of Barbie that say, this is likea trans movie as well, the whole

(23:35):
idea of it as being trans, but,you know, I think that with, you
know, with the Barbie movie,like, there were just some
moments like, we, we werespeaking a little bit about
this, like, you know, when theygo into the real world, right,
and Barbie is suddenly the artlike the sexualized object where
she wasn't in Barbie land. Andthe commentary that I think

(23:59):
Greta is making there about whatit was like to play with
Barbies, you know, in your, inyour childhood bedroom, you
know, or in my friend's attic.
And it was such an imaginativespace of, like, Feminine
Empowerment. Really, yeah. ThatI as a non binary person, like I
don't like I'm very much seeingmy gender in the most complex

(24:20):
way possible. Right. So andthat's part of what I talk about
in the book, too, is notshutting off, like any part of
myself, like, you know, and Ithink that's a very difficult
space to be in, in some ways. SoI very much think that the
femininity aspect of the movieand really centering the
feminine. You know, I can'tthink of another recent film

(24:45):
that has done that, you know,

Alex Iantaffi (24:49):
exactly. And I think you know, thinking about
also like, what femininityrepresents, and I'll cry, like
the relationship with femininitycan be you know, and I've been
brought up you know, my All thiswas a girl that was asked to do
her own journey aroundfemininity, right? Because this
what does it mean to lovefemininity to love pink and also

(25:09):
to be incredibly smart and tolove math, and to love science,
you know, and almost to havethis dilemma, you can be one or
the other, right? You can bepretty in pink, or you can be
smart, but not really in pink,right? But if you're pretty in
pink and smart, then the worldcannot tolerate that right? And
in a way, a lot of our was like,femininity is okay to me. It's

(25:33):
not the problem BB is not theproblem. The patriarchy is the
problem. I'm like, You're right.
The doll is not the problem, thepatriarch is the problem.

Unknown (25:43):
Right? And we really like thanks to queer theory,
like we've really moved awayfrom that feminist moment where
it wasn't okay to wear likeheels if you want to, or, you
know, to have that highest stemaesthetic, because one of the
things that I really push on inmy book is it's not about
aesthetic. Yes, this is aboutsettler colonialism, white

(26:04):
supremacy, and, you know, andviolence against marginalized
people like that. I thinkthere's so much room to play
with gender. And I think Barbieinvites us into that, honestly,
you know, and I think that, youknow, the fact that the tween
character, whose name I'mforgetting just now, like the

(26:24):
fact that she has that speechalso, you know, and she's so
angry. But then she's able toheal that anger, like through
Barbie is such a sort of crossidentifying moment. Queer sense,
you know,

Alex Iantaffi (26:41):
there's so many queer moments, I think that that
actually, the Barbie movie is soqueer, which is why the
conservative media was so upsetabout it. I think at one point,
there's even like the colors ofthe trans flag during I think is
during the man I am number Ineed to watch it again to watch
it. And I was like watching Whatis even happening right now.

(27:03):
This is the gayest thing I'veseen in a long time in a
mainstream movie, actually. Andso there's this moment that is
just the movie is so trans is soqueer, but it's also really a
highlighting of just how messedup kind of white masculinity in
America is, you know, in a waycan. Can. It's really about this

(27:23):
crisis of like, white men inAmerica, right? In some ways,
like,

Unknown (27:29):
well, I picked up on something that I had missed.
I've watched it twice now.
Probably, we'll watch it againlater today. I'm inspired. But
when Ken takes over Barbie landand goes and learns about
patriarchy, and forces, andyeah, takes the books out of the
lab out of the school library.

(27:49):
And I mean, all of those momentsare great, like, where he asked
to be a doctor, but he has nocredentials. And he's like, but
I'm a man like that commentarywithout executive race, like,
you're not doing patriarchy,then very well, if you can't
just do whatever you want as aman and you need all these
degrees. And he's like, Oh, no,we're doing it very well. We're

(28:11):
just hiding it better. Yes.
Like, it's just, it's perfect.
Like, that was exactly what Iwas saying about the post metoo
moment is that, you know, thingsjust become folded back in
instead of really radicallyrestructured, it just sort of
gets hauled back in. But there'sa moment so when can and you

(28:34):
know, I guess the cans, but Ithink really Ken is the
ringleader, they're the theprimary Canada's the Canon
leader. waves a flag that isjust remarkably similar to a
January 6.

Alex Iantaffi (28:49):
Scene. Yes.

Unknown (28:51):
And the takeover is a violent one. And the takeover is
we're going to turn everythinginto into a saloon basically,
which I have a chapter on thewestern of my book. So I really
appreciated that. Like, for me,like the Western has been like
such a fun part of my bookbecause there are new Westerns

(29:12):
that have come out that havereally revised the the genre. So
I look at Westworld and godlessas being like you know,
redefining it around that me toomoment to like godless came out
in 2017, just like a couple ofmonths after it was kind of
anticipating and I feel butanyway, so the January 6 moment
is in there, and I feel likethere's a lot going on in the

(29:33):
subconscious of the film, too.
That was fun. And I laughed andI laugh with my students, but
you're also really like hit at adeep level. With what our
current moment is like, you knowthat we have claimed Barbie
land.

Alex Iantaffi (29:50):
We have an odd reclaimed Barbie, and find the
lodger in the movie too. I wassurprised by how deeply hit me
as somebody in my 50s was I'vegone through I feel many gender
iterations in five decades andand you know, there are so many
moments in the movie. They'revery, like, I would say, funny

(30:12):
and gut wrenching at the sametime. And, and I, you know, I
really love when you said wehaven't reclaimed Barbie land.
And I know that there's been nosubstance, some commentary on
social media. I didn't like theending, it should be both Barbie
and Ken are rolled together. AndI was like, what? Why? No. And

(30:33):
so I think it's also veryinteresting to see how people
are reacting to it and going,well, then, you know, Barbie
should be like hearing right?
And now Barbie and cans, youknow, the both Barbies and cans
should be equal, right? Thisidea of like, equality, which
doesn't really actuallyundermines the structure the

(30:54):
foundations right. And so I'mwondering about how you felt
about the kind of the reclaimingof Barbie land, from the, from
the setup?

Unknown (31:11):
Yeah, I think that one of the things that I've
stressed, like, in all of mywork has been that fundamentally
we talk about transphobia, wetalk about homophobia, we talk
about it's all

Alex Iantaffi (31:24):
misogyny, it is

Unknown (31:26):
at the root of it is misogyny. And, you know, I think
that there's probably a feelingof fear, like, what if we let
the feminine, you know, out ofthe box? Like, what if we let
the feminine rule like I thinkthere's a fear there not only
for, you know, people whoidentifies who are assigned
male, but also everyone, sort oflike having this fear of like,

(31:50):
we need this sort of patriarchalcontrol to organize our lives.
Like, it'll be chaos, like thissort of feeling. And that's,
again, one of those feelings, asyou talked about before this
sort of seeps in and it's theair we breathe, that is anti
feminine, right. So I personallyreally love the fact that Ken is

(32:10):
looking kind of dejected, in hiskey enough, can off sweatshirt
at the end. And you know, thething about it, too, that I
picked up on the second time isthat Ken has no emotion in that
scene. So did he really loveGharbi? Or was it just an
accessory to his ego? Like, it'sclear that it was an accessory

(32:33):
to his ego and that the wholething was was about that and in
certain respects, like the lastscene that they have, where Ken
doesn't know who he is apartfrom Barbie, but it's really the
ego identification. It's thefact that Barbie is this is this
sort of accessory in hisnarcissism, a projection, you
know what I mean? So, yeah, so Ithink that I, I was very happy

(32:59):
with the fact that Ken was leftbehind in Barbie land to
continue his job of beachindefinitely.

Alex Iantaffi (33:08):
I agree. I feel like I was like, no, why Ken is
not ready to rule like Kanye hasto go through his own process of
like, unfolding undoing findinghimself, you know, because this
and that's what I love as wellthat you know, actually the
Barbie movie highlights men arenot okay. And that type of Love
is not love. It's selfcenteredness. It is narcissism

(33:31):
is self centeredness is thatthere is no space for Barbies
well being, or Barbieshappiness, right? It's about me,
me, me. You're not payingattention to me. You're not
giving me what I want. Right?
And therefore because you're notgiving me what I want now I take
everything right. And that isnot love that but and yet we see
that play out in you know,reality TV in dating shows we

(33:56):
see play out and like, you know,exactly that. That could be all
other episodes. I'm pretty suretalking about

Unknown (34:04):
I love that genre.

Alex Iantaffi (34:08):
I've just finished watching the latest
season of love is blind. And I'mlike, says that

Unknown (34:14):
particular.

Alex Iantaffi (34:16):
Right? Totally.
Maybe we'll have to do I thinkto have like, let's talk about
gender in reality TV shows andwhat's happening there. But I
was actually

Unknown (34:27):
the show's way back. I mean, I started with love
connection. Yes. And before Ieven knew what a date was,
because my parents let me watchwhatever I wanted on TV. TV was
my, my surrogate family, if youwill, so I'm very into pop
culture because I had that kindof close relationship with
characters to where they becamelike, you know, I think there is

(34:51):
a term for that, that that I'mforgetting but where you develop
a relationship with people ontelevision or in film

Alex Iantaffi (34:59):
like that. Our social type of relation
parasocial,

Unknown (35:02):
that's the term. Yeah, yeah.

Alex Iantaffi (35:04):
Yeah. And, you know, I love popular culture as
well. And I think that's one ofthe, you know, many reasons that
I loved your book, because theyyou do kind of talk about
popular culture as well. Andjust how kind of masculinity
plays out, not just kind of thepolitical stage or the, but also

(35:24):
like the popular culture stage,so to speak, combat fragility,
normative masculinity.

Unknown (35:31):
Yeah, and I think that, you know, the whole idea of
like, the Hollywood movie, canbe a real source of, you know,
the term that I use in the bookis unruly alliances, like
bonding with people who aredifferent from you. And one of
the things I really loved aboutgoing to see the Barbie movie
was that there, I was surroundedby such a diverse group of

(35:53):
people. And again, it remindedme of those classes that I
talked about where like, thereare really a lot of people that
are interested in this movie,but every once in a while, you
would see like a dad with hisyoung assigned female child on
his phone, like not payingattention, and I kind of wanted
to nudge him and be like, youknow, you really, you really
should be looking at this.

Alex Iantaffi (36:14):
Because there's gonna be some questions.

Unknown (36:20):
Right, exactly.

Alex Iantaffi (36:22):
Yeah. And this should be questions, right? Even
with my youngest was a boy. Andhe, he came into my life when I
was a little older, like sevenyears old. And just a couple of
years ago, we had thisconversation around masculinity,
right? It was like, you know,well, I know that often is like
this white man that do thosethings. And what does it mean

(36:45):
that I am one? And I'm like,That's a great question to ask
yourself, right. And we havethis great conversation about
the connection with like, youknow, white supremacy and
masculinity and all those thingsthat it's not about, there is
nothing, you know, it's not badto be a boy. It's just you have
to be aware of why, you know,and this discourses and I

(37:06):
remember, he was so angryanyone, why are they not
teaching me this in school? Youknow, that was his middle
schooler reaction was, why arethey not teaching me this in
school? And I was like, You'reright. Why are they not teaching
you this at school? Please goask your teachers. I will also
ask your teachers why they'renot teaching you this in school.
Right. But it's this idea thatoften a lot of this discourse

(37:28):
can is so easily relegated toacademic journals, or academic
books. I mean, I love your book.
And also, it, it is a denseread, I think for the general
public potentially, right, youknow, not not to dance. But
definitely there's a level ofchallenge. You know, right. It's
kind of beyond I don't know, amiddle schooler level as it

(37:49):
should be. Yeah. So I love that,like, how do we bridge this
divide, so to speak, theconversations are happening in
like queers, nannies andmasculinity studies. And, you
know, and then there's theBarbie movie that I think in
some ways, is bridging some ofthose conversations. How do we
do this? How do we bring thisconversation more into an

(38:13):
educational context? In everydaycontext?

Unknown (38:19):
I mean, that's a great question like, considering, you
know, back to, I think you saidit was your, your son, right.
Yeah, your son, like back toyour son's story, like, I have
those moments all the timelately, retroactively, where I
think why didn't I learn this inschool? And why didn't I learn
school, and like the fact thatright now, education is being

(38:40):
attacked? You know, I just movedfrom Tennessee, you know, very
red state to Illinois. And, youknow, I got gender affirming
care in Tennessee. And it wasterrifying, because just as I
was getting that gender forMedicare, you know, you have the
senator of Tennessee coming outand saying that the clinic that

(39:01):
I went to, is mutilatingchildren. And then the whole
thing just really broke open.
And one of the things that Iwanted to talk about also is
that I loved, loved loved thegraphic novel, gender queer by
my co, Bobby. And so I taughtthat book in a trans studies
class back in 2018. This is sortof addressing your question of
like, what kinds of books andmaterials I think do bridge that

(39:24):
gaps and how I would also liketo do more popular writing once
I get tenure. But to get tenure,so um, you know, so that graphic
novel was something that I thatI taught, and I was just
literally floored and shockedthat that book is now the most

(39:44):
banned book in the country. Andthat it wasn't a politicized
move for me to teach that book.
2018 and my students loved itand more than anything else, it
really told mice Don't worry,you know, from a much different
generational viewpoint, butstill. And now like I, you know,

(40:09):
now I'm in a blue state in avery interesting location in
Southern Illinois that'sbecoming like a place for trans
refugees who are clean redstates, reproductive justice,
like we're just surrounded in alot of ways. And so. So for me,
those kinds of graphic novels,like the popular culture that I

(40:33):
talk about in the book, like, Italk about the poet performer,
Andrea Gibson, nonbinary, poetperformer, who, like, you know,
I have moments in the book thatI'm hoping people will grab on
to who are not super high endacademic, and I try to sort of
balance that out. Because Ithink that there are so many

(40:59):
things that can't should beshould be, should be more widely
available to people too. And theshutting down of that is
intellectual abuse in my mind.
And so, yeah, so yeah, I don'treally know where

Alex Iantaffi (41:16):
that's okay. I mean, honestly, we can just go
to this place of grief, eventhough not only like, I think
that, you know, I remember whenDonald Trump the first time, you
know, was gonna said they weregonna run for election and
everybody was like, oh, youknow, it was almost like, it was
a joke. And I was like, Oh, herewe go. Like, this is just the

(41:38):
next chapter in the rise offascism, right? And people were
like, You're exaggerating. It'sbecause you're like you coming
from Italy, and you see fascismeverywhere. And I was like, and
then you know, not shortly, notlong after sorry. People are
like, Oh, fascism. I'm like,yep. Some of I don't know, maybe
I am ever vigilant. Because Iwas brought up, you know,

(42:01):
teachers and grandparents thattalked about, you know, having
survived fascism. But where wasI going with this? My ADHD brain
will come around in a momentagain. And if it doesn't, we'll
just have to cut this bit. Andthat's okay. And if we don't
carry on, get to see theprocess, but you know, for it,

(42:26):
no, I

Unknown (42:26):
think fascism. You know, I do talk about this quite
a bit in my book that, you know,American fascism has always been
with us, the seeds of it, youknow, and enslavement, the seeds
of it, and genocide of AmericanIndians, Native Americans, you
know, internal, you know, theincarceration of black and brown

(42:48):
folks predominantly, justaccelerating, you know, in the
latter part of the 20th century,like, all of that is fascist.

Alex Iantaffi (42:57):
Yes. Thank you that, oh, my brain was.

Unknown (43:01):
We're just seeing it now with the gloves off.

Alex Iantaffi (43:05):
Exactly. And I think that literally seen books
banned, it's hard to deny it.
Right. I was like, literally,that the parallels are all
there, right? Going after transfolks. You know, pre World War
Two Berlin, book banning, youknow, I mean, really, it's not
even subtext anymore. It's like,the text is all there in terms

(43:27):
of just kind of incredible pushtowards like this anti
intellectualism, the sphere ofknowledge, the sphere of books,
right? This veneer of criticalrace theory, you know, the
sphere of gender ideology, rightto use all those terms that are

(43:49):
kind of so pervasive. And it andwhile I understand on one hand
that it stems from fear andcertainty living under late
stage capitalism, it is also Ithink, scary and horrifying for
a lot of minorities, for a lotof minoritized communities for
lots of good reasons. And somewondering how you, you know, I

(44:10):
know you bring that into thebook, right? Like how we cannot
talk about masculinity withouttalking about race. We cannot
talk about masculinity withouttalking about racial capitalism,
actually, specifically, right,and the political stage. And so
yes, I'm wondering, like, if youwant to say a little bit more

(44:31):
about the connections that youmake in the book.

Unknown (44:35):
Yeah. So one of the things that I really wanted to
do was to make a book thatcelebrated resistance. I didn't
want to make a book that was adreary description of the
present, although I do quite abit of that. Like, what I really
wanted to talk about was how,you know, you know the word of

(44:59):
the The word sort of exuberantmasculinity or joyful
masculinity through a queer andtrans lens comes into mind. But
that these are all valid andwonderful and colorful and, you
know, vibrant masculinities thatare queer and trans that have
something to show us about whatmasculinity really can be like,

(45:23):
if we associate it with likephallic sexuality and, and power
and assertion or, you know,whatever you associate it with,
and that sort of, like, youngdimension of things can be used,
like productively towards socialjustice goals, towards giving us
pleasure as well. So givingfolks pleasure, and that's one

(45:43):
of the things that I think isimportant, too, is sort of the
pleasures of masculinity, justlike the pleasures of
femininity, can be available toall kinds of different people.
So, like, I talk aboutPerformance Art, and I talk
about like, using sex toys andperformance art, you know, as a
way to sort of challenge likethis, like, so called biological

(46:07):
supremacy of, of assignedmasculinity. You know, I bring
in, you know, like I mentionedthe Westerns already, but I also
talk about unions like I talkedabout a book that people really
have loved and loved and lovedwith it, which is, Leslie
Feinberg stone which blues and Ihad the really special

(46:29):
experience of talking with manyBruce Pratt, Feinberg, late,
fine, late fuzzy Feinberg'spartner who recently passed
away. And I was so glad that Ihad that opportunity, because
she just said, Leslie would haveloved your read of this book.
Because I approach it as aboutwork. And I approach it from the

(46:50):
perspective of, you know, thebutches banding together, you
know, to protect one another,you know, on the factory floors,
for example. So I address sortof unions, and that's such a hot
topic right now, of course, thatwe have all these strikes
happening. But this is anotherthing that I feel like I missed,
like anticipated, because at thetime, I was like, oh, there was

(47:10):
some Amazon stuff going on. Andthere's stuff going on with
Chipotle. And you know, therewere little things happening
here and there. But it'smassively exploded from where it
was. I mean, it's not at amassive mass point. But I think
it's just such a dramaticincrease in union activity and
people being pissed aboutcapitalism, quite honestly.

Alex Iantaffi (47:32):
So many people are tired of like, you know,
we're going, I would say, we'restill going for a pandemic, even
though everybody's pretendingwe're not right. We're still
going through a pandemic, peopleare still dying, you know, where
and people are like, Why iseverybody so tired? So
dysregulated, all our executivefunctioning is kind of gone to
hell, in a handbasket, orwhatever. Whatever the

(47:57):
expression is, right? And peopleare like, so confusing. I'm
like, is it confusing, though?
Or is it like, we're alsoexhausted by late stage
capitalism, and people no longerwant to just, you know, use
their body minds as commodities,just on the altar of capitalism,
and to make more money for JeffBezos or whoever has way more
money than God. Right. And oneof the things I love about your

(48:21):
book is that you it is that it'snot just about, you know, I
would say that trauma ofnormative masculinity, but it's
also the potential expansivenessof, you know, relationality of
care, right? And we're seeingthat really emerging, like the
idea of mutual aid, that Tomomialmost mainstream is talking

(48:43):
about mainstream mutual aid topeople who are not like Conor
kissed or something that theyunderstand the concept, right.
And it's like, it's amazing tome, and so let's go there. Let's
talk about Yeah, how, in someways, the, the Madison the
healing is probably in communityand that relationality and

(49:04):
mutual care.

Unknown (49:07):
Yeah, I mean, if you think about back to toxic
masculinity, you know, it'sabout independence and
ruggedness. And, you know, JohnWayne, I know, this is an old
icon that maybe a lot oflisteners won't know who he is,
but I still see his picture onlike, yes, supermarket magazines
and such like that, like, it'sstill has quite a cult following

(49:29):
like, independence, autonomy.
And also, you know, if I see anenemy, which is normally an
American, Indian, or NativeAmerican person, I have the
right to kill that person.
Right? Same with othermarginalized groups marginalized
by race. And so, you know, Ifeel like, you know, that, that

(49:50):
kind of toxic masculinity needsto be countered, you know, and
again, it's it's not so muchabout aesthetics or style. It's
much more about we need To startcaring for one another, like, we
need to get out of this crisisof empathy that we're in, you
know, we need to on the dailylike, on an individual level,

(50:10):
but also when it comes to acrossidentity groups, like, you know,
the the Combahee Rivercollective statement, the black
feminist statement back in the1970s was like, you know, I have
to fight for my own oppression,but also, like, link up with
other groups that are oppressed,because we're not going to be
able to do this alone. Like, andthat is, what has really come to

(50:33):
the fore for me is we have, youknow, the complete rollback, you
might even say decimation ofreproductive justice,
reproductive rights, we havetrans people suffering in ways
that just breaks my heart daily,you know, and we still, you
know, post BLM have, you know,just vicious forms of violence

(50:55):
against, you know, blackIndigenous and People of Color
in the United States. So, Ithink that if we, it's, it's a
tendency right now, I think, tokind of circle the wagons and
sort of get with your people.
And I understand that, and Ivalue that, and I think that's
important. But I think it's alsolooking at how all of these
struggles are connected. Andtrying to be, you know, be of

(51:17):
service to the other becauseit's the other relationship that
we even talked about in theBarbie movement, it's like
movie, it's like, you know, theusing the other as an object,
you know, from Ken's perspectiveas a way of ego formation. Like,
he uses Barbie for, right, like,you know, the, the idea of

(51:41):
increasing our capacity to beempathic to be empathetic toward
one another is one of the goalsof my book. And it's also seeing
the ways in which queer andtrans community just offer so
much to the mainstream to like,you know, as I mentioned before,

(52:02):
like, not wanting to see thesekinds of masculinities, which
includes, like I said, a widerange of folks, gay men, but
just sis fans, I mean, lots ofdifferent trans women like trans
women's masculinities, which Ithink is I'm hoping someone
writes a paper on that, I thinkthat would be really great.

(52:22):
Probably, I will, but like, youknow, like seeing it as relevant
to the broader discussion ofmasculinity,

Alex Iantaffi (52:31):
you know? Yeah, yeah. And I love that, you know,
I was brought up very much by asecond wave feminist, but
luckily, I also found blackfeminists very early on, right.
And so this idea that really,our roots of our oppression are
connected. You know, we all haveskin in the game and we work for
each other's liberation, whichhas definitely been one of the

(52:54):
tenants of my life, not just mywork, right. Our struggles are
interwoven, our struggles areconnected, we can't. Because we
are interdependent. We're a partof the same ecosystem, right?
And often when I talk aboutgender liberation, I often say
this is not about doing awaywith gender or masculinity or
femininity. This is aboutexpansiveness. This is about

(53:17):
like, actually a more expansivemasculinity, more expansive
femininity, more expansive, nonbinary newness or just, you
know, agender Ness, or whateverwe want to call it, right? It's
more expansiveness rather thanmore constriction. And that's
one of the things that I loveabout your book is that there is

(53:37):
expensive and as there is like,breathing towards the future,
through relationality, throughcare through empathy, which in a
way, of course, is the antidote,because colonialism, you know,
misogyny, they're all veryconstricting system, right?
They're all very make thingssmaller, rather than more

(53:59):
spacious, and more expansive andmore free, at least in my mind
had no sorry

Unknown (54:05):
about that. No, I love thinking about the idea of
capitalism as a constructor, aconstructor of our bodies, a
constructor of our souls aconstructor of our time to like
a lot of the thing I went, onething I think about recently is
how capitalism structures ourtime, you know, so that we feel

(54:26):
we're completely out of rhythmwith the natural world. Exactly,
no, we're very fixed in thatway. Or let's just say that the
culture encourages that almostas also as a badge of honor.
Like, you know, like you weresaying, people are resisting
that in the workplace, but it'ssort of like well, how much work

(54:46):
can you handle then? That's yourbadge of honor. And I'm actually
you know, my partner is not fromthe United States and a lot.
It's it's extra here.

Alex Iantaffi (54:56):
She's really an extra many people I say, Oh, you
take European amounts of timeoff. And I was like I should do.
And I intend to keep doing thatnow that I have the privilege to
work for myself and do that,because you all why would you
want to work 50 weeks a year ifyou don't have to, right. I

(55:18):
mean, obviously, a lot of peoplehave to survive under not only
capitalism, but also like in acountry where there is no
universal health care, wherethere's, you know, some states
don't even have education,that's really up to par. Because
that's not where the state isinvesting. So I understand why
people work so hard. But yeah,always strikes me is that people

(55:40):
use it as a badge of honor. AndI think that that's take us back
to the masculinity, right? Thematch on is that like, but you
know, isn't it great that I havethe flu and I'm working, I'm
like, No, you're makingeverybody sick? And you
shouldn't be arresting? It'sreally not a sign of strength to
me, but okay.

Unknown (56:00):
Well, and that's, you know, it's it's such a parody of
itself, in a lot of ways likethat kind of white class
privilege masculinity, just toadd that in there as well.
That's important. salutely. And,you know, I think that what the
Barbie back to the Barbie justreally clearly again, but like,
I think what Barbie mightencourage people to do is, you

(56:23):
know, when they happen to besitting with a white sis head,
dude, who's playing the guitarat them for four hours. Maybe
they buy, like, look at them.
Look at that situation, say,wait a minute, this looks
familiar. Because my studentsand I laughed so much again, at
that scene because it hits home.

(56:44):
It's no, I mean, it's home.

Alex Iantaffi (56:47):
Absolutely. Those stereotypes do not come from
nowhere. I definitely had somevery painful flashbacks to my
teenage years, you know, duringthe movie going, you know,
because I think that's maybe myearly 20s, where there was still
saying no direction. Yeah, yeah.
I

Unknown (57:08):
mean, you bring up one, one point that I wanted to go
back to as being raised by asecond wave feminist I think you
mentioned but like finding yourway to women of color feminism
and black feminist practice. Andlike, I think that one of the
things that happened for me,like coming up, really, in the
early third wave, was that therewas still this sense that to be

(57:31):
masculine was bad. Yeah. Oh,absolutely. So for me, that led
to a lot of repression, andstill a lot of confusion. And I
think one of the things that Iwanted to do with this book was
to work through like, you know,my father was abusive, my
brother was abusive, like, youknow, I have this abuse history
also. And it just happened onwhite. And so it's kind of like,

(57:53):
well, what does it mean, to movetoward white masculinity? Yeah.
Is there something in here thatcan be dislodged from that
meaning, like that set ofmeanings, and I think it's still
something that I struggle with,because when I came out as non
binary, a lot of my lesbianfriends were not so happy with
that. And I had to sort ofdemonstrate that I wasn't going

(58:15):
over to the enemy side, youknow. And I think that's where
we need to separate like, youknow, not being dominating in
that sense by any means, butstill having that playfulness,
with all things masculine, likeI can wear a tie, or I can,
like, you know, I can playaround with it. And I think I
tried to make that distinctionin the, in the book is that

(58:37):
there's a difference between,like, playing with masculinity
and using it, it's creativepotential, right, if one wishes
to do so, but anyone can use it.
Right. But that style doesn'tequal domination and style.
Doesn't you know what I'msaying?

Alex Iantaffi (58:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
Because also, when we demonizesomething right, in a way,
second wave feminism kind ofdemonize masculinity in a lot of
ways, like I really struggledwith. I didn't understand my
gender identity for a long time,because I was internalized
misogyny. And so I've reallytried to embrace femininity. I
used to say, that felt like Iwas in drag, which I was comes

(59:15):
out because I didn't know aboutmy gender yet. Right? But I was,
you know, and then you try toembrace femininity, but you
can't embrace it too much. Also,if you're queer, because then
that gives you a proximity tomasculinity, right? I remember
even as a bi person when I wasstill femme presenting, right,
inherently suspicious, becauseof the femininity and then that

(59:36):
bisexuality that gave meproximity, right to sis men, and
it's that doesn't

Unknown (59:45):
have very many stories.
We have very similar storiesbecause I came out. Like I said,
I came out as lesbian than nonbinary, but the piece I left out
earlier, is that I then came outas bi plus or Pam, like either
one of those terms really suitsme And it was just a really
interesting trajectory because Iwas looking for my masculinity
sort of the whole time and, andlike you said about being in

(01:00:09):
drag, like, you know, when Ilook back at pictures of myself
from those years, there's justit does feel very strange, you
know? And then I was alwaystrying to reach towards
something that wasn't thatdidn't fit me or I was always
like, Okay, this is how you donails. Okay, what do I do again,
like, and it's always just alittle off and the prom dress

(01:00:32):
was off. And, you know, I justdidn't, again, generationally
speaking. There, there were verylimited options like one could
be a butch but I was like, whatI don't ride a motorcycle tools.

Alex Iantaffi (01:00:53):
That was good with tools. That's where and I'm
like, too much of a princess.
Too much of a gay masculinity,to really embrace Britishness.
So it was complicated.

Unknown (01:01:08):
Right? And that's why like Britishness, I did a lot of
work on Bush, in my earlyacademic career, and I was, you
know, finding all these ways totalk about Bush outside of that
stereotype. I mean, for a lot ofpeople, that is really an
important part of their identityand my complete, I honor that
completely. It just never fitme. And I think that's where

(01:01:30):
finding queer theory andfinding, like, you know, Eve
Centrix whole idea of crossidentification, like the idea
that, you know, she is like asis white woman identified more
with gay masculinity was for mean opening that I so badly
needed. And I also identify morewith a with a gay queer

(01:01:51):
masculinity and like, my, myneighbor, who's a gay man, and I
always talk about, like, hewants my outfit ideas. And like,
I love it, you know, and it'slike, that's such the richness
and the fluidity of queernessthat, like, I just thrive on and
I want other, I want everyone tohave that ability, you know, and
I want everyone to be able to,to play with these things, and

(01:02:14):
to not also be in fear. But Ihave to tell you that when I
had, you know, top surgery, Ilost some lesbian friendships
over it. And that was really,really difficult. Because again,
it was at that high point, we'restill in the high point. I mean,
we just keep going higher,there's no, when we were at a
new high point for the timeperiod anyway, like, I felt

(01:02:37):
really abandoned. And I think itsort of prevented me from moving
in that direction for a while.
Because I was worried in acertain way of losing my
community of losing, losingpeople's love. I mean, that
didn't, I lost a couple offriends. I mean, it wasn't like
a mass. Sort of shunning. But itit I did, again, have to
demonstrate that I wasn't goingto be or meet people made

(01:03:00):
assumptions. I was going to usehe him pronouns, which was
really interesting.

Alex Iantaffi (01:03:08):
Which, even if you chose to, like that wouldn't
justify losing friendships,potentially, but I totally hear
you because it's like when Istarted dating my one of my
partners of now 20 For years, Ilost most of my lesbian friends
because they were see, rightalways aspect we knew it like

(01:03:28):
right, and it's like, most ofthem, it was just like, peace
out, right? Because I most itwas still pretty much lesbian
separatist world in some ways,right? And so that's that those
are the fractures in the cracks.
And I've met so many. I've alsomet so many folks who were like
lesbian identified, and thenfell in love with a man and

(01:03:49):
married and totally moved out ofqueer community. You know, I was
very stubborn and hang in there.
And I was lucky because I alsohad a lot of queer men, male
friends, which was great,because most of them were like,
Oh, when I transitioned or like,Finally, this makes sense.
Right? It's like, oh, you'rekind of a queer dude. Like, this

(01:04:12):
makes more sense. Oh,

Unknown (01:04:13):
my God. Oh, totally.
Yeah, no, and there's no just tobacktrack on that. No, there
would be nothing wrong if Iwanted to take up he him
pronouns whatsoever. It's justmore that when I said, I'm going
to get top surgery, people wouldconfront me and say, Are you
going by he him pronouns now?
And it was almost like a test.
Yes. Like, are you gonna go byhim now? Because now we need to

(01:04:36):
know where you stand. It's notantiquated. These battles.
They're very much happening inreal time. For a lot of us, and,
you know, I think that's wheremy concept to be honest with you
of unruly alliances came from?
Yeah. Because I had to reinventreinvent Did myself many times

(01:05:01):
and it's all come with its owncommunity issues, you know what
I mean? Like leaving behind thestraight world was a harder for
me because it led to familycourts lead to discrimination,
it led to all sorts of things,right that I don't want to go
into too much detail about, butit led, it led to horrible
places in that way. And thenjoining a lesbian community, you

(01:05:24):
know, it's still, I still felt alittle bit like, well, I don't
know if this feels like me, youknow. And then like coming out
as non binary, having some transfriends also say like, I don't
get non binary, like, it's justI wish that we could maybe

(01:05:44):
soften all those edges, and justallow everyone to, to be who
they are. And I know that maybesounds like a naive thing to
say, but I just really wish thatthere weren't these sort of hard
lines sometimes. And that's notat all to generalize all queer
community or all queer transcommunity, it's just more to

(01:06:05):
say, like, there are thesemoments, right. And a lot of it
revolves around masculinity. Orat least for me, it has, you
know, absolutely.

Alex Iantaffi (01:06:16):
I love this idea of softening the edges, right?
Because I often think about,well, where is that hard line?
Right? And as somebody who'sbeen a hardcore abolitionist of
like, political borders, as wellas the police, right? Where are
those hard those hard lines tome feel so colonial and non
relational? In every way, right?
Because where does trans andinsists begin? Where does non

(01:06:38):
binary and but you know, it'salmost like life isn't binary,
which obviously, I love that.
Yeah, I love that book. I'm oneof the co authors.

Unknown (01:06:49):
No, I know, I love that. I love that. But I did
have that book. Also.

Alex Iantaffi (01:06:56):
I didn't know.
Yeah, it's like, I'm with you.
Right? For me, I feel like mylife work is like, how do we
soften and blur thoseboundaries, so that all of us
can just breathe a little fearbe in deeper relationship to
each other? Like, because weotherwise we can't write if
there are those hard lines andhard walls between us?

(01:07:16):
Absolutely.

Unknown (01:07:17):
Yeah. And I think the unruly Alliance concept like
idea for me, which I think youget the spirit of, you know,
it's like, in my previousuniversity, like, you know, my
best friend was, you know, mucholder than me, like she was, you
know, about, we retired, sheretired, and I left that
university around the same time,but she was such an ally, for

(01:07:40):
me, and like, you know, totallyof different generations also
identified as by plus, but like,it was a very unlikely pairing,
you know, that we would findsuch such solace in each other
where I didn't always find it inother spaces. And so I think,
for me, I've had very unlikelyfriendships, alliances with

(01:08:03):
people that have changed me. AndI think if I weren't open to
that, and I only wanted to bearound people who looked like
me, I would have really lost outon so much like I learned about
masculinity, even through my 90year old stepfather who just
passed away recently, actually.
And so he taught me a lot andsort of taught me that, you

(01:08:23):
know, there is such a thing as anon abusive father to like, it
is possible to changemasculinity. And I think that's
what you said earlier to aboutthe fact that it doesn't work.
It's an old feminist adage, likepatriarchy doesn't work for
anyone, right? It doesn't workfor white sis, men, either. And

(01:08:45):
some have realized that, and Ithink my class did that for some
of these of these men as well.
And they've really started toquestion you know, not their
style, none of that, but like,starting to question how they
relate to others. Because thatis, that is the point. That is

(01:09:08):
really it, like, how do I reachthe other? And how do I
empathize with another'sexperience? Because so much of
what our society teaches us is,Who am I as an individual, here
I am on my phone, how many likesdo I have? Like, yes, how am I
being perceived, and that socialmedia is a double edged sword

(01:09:29):
there because I think socialmedia has done incredible things
for queer and trans community,incredible things for folks to
build solidarity. But of course,also there's the other side of
it, which increases ournarcissistic impulses for all of
us. And that needs to be sort ofdis identified with a resisted,

(01:09:51):
you know, where we need to lookat that critically as well and
think like, you know, it's abouthow am I using that tool, not
like shunning it? are gettingrid of our phones because
that's, that wouldn't be useful.
That's my phone. I really lovemy phone. So it's like, you
know,

Alex Iantaffi (01:10:10):
I would mess up my phone. And I don't know that
I would miss emails, sometimes.
I do miss the days beforeemails, but I have to say I love
social media, there's so mucheasier to find community, right?
It's like, you know, I didn'tknow any trans people that, that
were out growing up, right? I'msure there were some around me
in Italy in the 70s. But Ididn't know them. And so like

(01:10:31):
social media is really giving,like such a playground to
younger generations to findthemselves to see themselves
even if they're in an isolatedrural area, that they don't have
to feel like I'm the only kidwho feels like this in the whole
world, right? Because I can findsomebody else who resonates with
that experience. And, and Ithink that's beautiful. You

(01:10:55):
know, like, I think that much asthere is like this shadow side
of social media, I think there'sstill so much goodness in the
internet in terms ofrelationality. Yeah,

Unknown (01:11:07):
but definitely like, and I think like the ways that
my students learn on socialmedia and then come into my
classes, and they have suchthey, they identify themselves
with such precision, in a way Ireally envy because I think
about like when I was around inthe sixth grade when it was time
to take off my like, Tomboyclothes. You know, I mean,

(01:11:31):
again, it was still a really gaytomboy. Barbie was still there.

Alex Iantaffi (01:11:39):
I love that. I think that's a beautiful place
to end on the gay, Tomboy this,I feel like I could have like 20
different conversations with youabout all the things that we've
been talking about. But I dowant I want to be respectful of
your time. And maybe we'll justhave to have at least another

(01:12:00):
episode on reality. And genderOh, yeah. Let's get on the
calendar for 2024. For it thananything else that you were
hoping to touch on or talk aboutthat I haven't really asked you
about, always ask my guests atthe end, like, is there anything
that we have not talked aboutthat you are hoping to convey or

(01:12:22):
communicate to the listeners,

Unknown (01:12:25):
I just really want to reiterate a message of hope. You
know, and really just leavespace for how many people you
know, we touched on grief, wetouched on grieving, we touched
on trauma, and just how manypeople are really in a state of
suffering right now in theUnited States, because that's
where we are right now. And justfeeling isolated, like just to

(01:12:48):
know that they're not alone. Andthat, you know, there is
community out there and thereare different ways of being
masculine. And that, you know,that is that is available to us
now. And we can seize on that.
And we can, you know, live inthe beautiful vibrancy of all
the different masculinities thatare possible. You know,

Alex Iantaffi (01:13:09):
I love that and that now, all I have in my mind
is that man, I am seeing anBarbie with a beautiful vibrant
masculinity is what a beautifulplace to end on. And you also
have a book out. So just areminder for our listeners that
your book masculinity intransition is out now. And they

(01:13:30):
can order it from wherever theyget books and other an
electronic book for more, or anactual hard copy of the book.
And it has a beautiful cover. Ifyou want to flash it. I'll show
it again. On YouTube. Again, itdidn't cover.

Unknown (01:13:45):
I think they did a wonderful job.

Alex Iantaffi (01:13:48):
I really did.
There's some particles, there'ssome blues, there's some
oranges, classical imagerieswith some social media emerge
jury, I love it. So please, getAllison's book. It's really
brilliant. And it's a wonderfulread. And I'm looking forward as
well to your chapter on bookbanning, as well. And if people
wanted to find out more aboutyour work, where should they go

(01:14:13):
on the internet?

Unknown (01:14:16):
Okay, awesome. Hammer k sorry, K Allison. Hammer
KLLISON hammer.com is mywebsite. And I post new stuff on
there new publications. There'salso more information about me
as an artist, scholar ofcultural critic, I do lots of
other work and literary journalsand literary magazines and

(01:14:37):
things like that. So I post newthings on there and you can
learn a little bit more aboutme. They're

Alex Iantaffi (01:14:44):
wonderful. What thank you so much for this time
today. I really appreciated ourconversation, and I'm really
looking forward to our next onealready.

Unknown (01:14:53):
It's wonderful to get to know you, Alex, thank you so
much for having me.

Alex Iantaffi (01:14:58):
Likewise, and Gender stories listeners. As
always, thank you for supportingthe show for listening, done
acetate to reach out and let meknow how you feel the season is
going. I know I had a little bitof a pause in 2021. But it's
wonderful to be back and to seethat you're all still listening.
And so let me know what you'dlike to hear in 2024 as well for

(01:15:22):
next season. And until nexttime, take care of yourself and
embrace your beautifulmasculinity, whatever that means
to you.