Queering Magical Practice with Enfys J Book

Episode Transcript
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Alex Iantaffi (00:01):
ello and welcome to another episode of gender
stories as ever, I am delightedand excited because I always
have. I have the coolest gueststhat can't help it. And today
I'm so delighted to be here withBbook who is an author priestex,
blogger, teacher, performer,singers, songwriter and comedian
we only like guest to keep verybusy and on They wrote the Gold

COVR aw (00:27):
Nonbinary, Genderfluid, Omnisexual Mysticism & Magick
(Llewellyn, June 2022); and it'sa wonderful book if you haven't
checked it out, please do.
They've also co-authored (withIvo Dominguez, Jr.) Sagittarius
Witch that came out this yearand wrote the forthcoming and
wrote the forthcoming QueerRites: A Magickal Grimoire to
Honor Your Milestones with Pridewhich will come out in early

(00:49):
2025 I believe right? So excitedabout this book too. They are
also a founding member of the"funny, filthy, feminist, fandom
folk" band The Misbehavin'Maidens, the creator of a
website on queer magick calledmajorarqueerna.com, and the host
of a podcast called "4 QuickQ's: Book Talk with Enfys,"

(01:10):
where they interview paganauthors using questions
determined by a roll of thedice. They have taught many
classes on tarot, HermeticQabala, magickal rites of
passage, and queering one’smagical practice at conferences
and events around the world. Byday, Enfys is a technical
account manager at a techcompany, specializing in content
migration and onboarding newcustomers. As a nonbinary,

(01:33):
bisexual pagan and performer,Enfys employs a queer lens to
break down limiting binaries inmagickal practice, and advocates
for bi, trans,non-binary/genderqueer, queer-,
and asexual visibility andinclusion through their writing
and music. Welcome and happyBeltane actually, it's Beltane
on the day we have ourinterview!

Enfys J Book (01:52):
Happy Beltane to you! And it's I'm so excited to
be here. As we talked aboutbefore we started recording, I'm
such a fan of your work, I thinkthat the How to Understand Your
Gender and How to Understandyour Sexuality should be
required reading for all humans.

So yeah, thank you. I'm excited to see why you
think about how to understandyour relationships coming out in
January.

Exciting. I know we can do a book swap. I mean,
itwould be great. Yeah. Alright,so coming out the same month, so
we could have like, we could docross promotion.

That's true. We totally could see, I love this
kind of mutual admiration thatgoes on with all my guests, and
I get to meet such cool people.
This is why I keep doing thepodcasts. Well, thank you. Thank
you. Thank you for being ongender stories. I know we
connected a little bit onlineand it maybe one day we'll get
to meet in person, at Paganiconor somewhere. But for today, I
would love for you to just tellthe listeners more about the

(02:47):
upcoming book. I mean, the titlealone, I am like there like

Queer Rites (02:50):
A Magickal Grimoire to Honor Your Milestones with
Pride. I was like, Yes, I wantthis book. Just tell me what is
the Book about what inspired youto write it? Go for it.

I'm so excited for this book to get released. It is
a book I wish I'd had many yearsago. And it's one that I hope
will help a lot of differentpeople who are approaching
milestones related to theirqueerness their gender, their
sexuality, and find ways to notonly honor those milestones, but

(03:28):
honor them in a magical way. Soone thing that happened to me
that sort of spurred thecreation of this book is like
many trans and non binarypeople, I decided to change my
name during COVID pandemic, likein late 2020, I kind of hit that
moment of okay, like, I need aname that better matches my

(03:48):
gender identity that bettermatches who I am inside. And I
ended up changing my firstmiddle and last name all at
once. Because it was just it wastime for all three. So going
through that process and all ofthe bureaucratic steps that take
forever was an interesting andsort of fraught and emotional

(04:12):
process. But there was never onemoment where I felt like my name
is changed or there was no stepin that process that like told
my soul that this is my newname, right. So I knew I needed
some kind of magical ritual todo that. And I reached out to
one of the elders in my pagantradition, which is the assembly

(04:33):
of the sacred wheel based in themid Atlantic region. And our My
elder Robin Fennelly, who's anamazing human and extremely
smart. I said, I don't knowwhere to begin, like, I've been
writing rituals for severalyears, but I had no idea where
to start writing a name changeritual, there was no prior art I
could use on this. And so I waslike, what do what do I do? And

(04:57):
she came through like sheunderstood the assignment and
over delivered. If anything, shecame up with not only a
completely written out ritualstart to finish, she gave me
astrological timing that wouldwork based on my birth chart and
transits. And she created asigil with my new name that I
could use and empower in theritual. And it was incredible.

(05:20):
And I took what she wrote, Iended up making just a few
changes based on what was reallypart of my spiritual practice at
the time, I wanted to weave itin with that. But I largely kept
it pretty much the same, and didthe ritual the day after my 41st
birthday. And there happened tobe like, an eclipse. So there
was like, lots of reallyinteresting and good

(05:42):
astrological stuff going on, inaddition to, you know, this is
the anniversary of when I gotthe name. And the day after, I
think, is sort of significant,like, okay, we're honoring that,
and then we're stepping forwardwith something new. So in the
process of doing that, and inthe ritual, where I told my

(06:03):
soul, all my parts of self, allof the spiritual beings that I
work with, this is my new name.
Absolutely, clearly, this is themoment when everything changes.
I found so much benefit fromdoing that not only did it help
me settle in better to my nonbinary identity, but also I
think it smooth the path foractually changing that name. I

(06:25):
shortly the best example I cangive here is I found shortly
after doing that ritual, I foundan organization called Trans
Maryland where all they do ishelp trans people change their
names, and the legal hoops arepretty intense. And I think if I
had not found them, I wouldstill be trying to change my
name four years later, becausethere was just so much,

(06:46):
especially with how governmentservices changed in 2020, there
were just a lot of gotchas thatwere not easy to find. And so
they were a big help. Mytransition at work was super
smooth. My coworkers took to thenew name very quickly. And all
the logistical stuff at workchanged really easily. So it was
really beneficial for me, notjust from a logistical

(07:09):
standpoint, but from a spiritualstandpoint. And I thought, I've
had so many queer milestones inmy life. You know, when I came
out to myself as bisexual, whenit came out to myself as non
binary, when it came out toothers, as bisexual and non
binary, those were about 10years apart. And actually more
like 20. But each of thesemilestones, I sort of did them,

(07:32):
but there was no like, tada, youknow, like, there was no, this,
this is a thing that oops, Ibumped my microphone. Hopefully
that didn't cause the noise. No,there was no moment of like,
this is real, you know. And Ithought about how we treat rites
of passage in our culture, andnot just on a magical level, but

(07:53):
on a mundane level. And Ithought, boy, what are some of
the biggest ones that we docelebrate? And how have those
kind of gotten twisted ininteresting ways, like, weddings
are kind of a prime example. Soover commercialized like
capitalism has wrecked so muchof like the concept of a wedding
for so many people. Anotherexample is when people get to an

(08:14):
older age, what do we do we haveall these joki over the hill
kind of things. And like there'salmost a shame in with this rite
of passage. And even you know,graduations are a big thing. But
there's so much pomp andcircumstance meant to please so
many people, that it kind ofloses the individual impact. So
the more I thought about this,the more I'm like, where is the

(08:35):
playbook for how to honor thesethings within ourselves, and
especially as queer people whohave to write our own scripts
for so much of our lives,because we don't see ourselves
in pop culture. Thankfully,that's getting better. But, you
know, I grew up in the 90s. Andthe only bisexual person I
remember seeing was thecharacter on my so called life

(08:57):
who didn't immediately resonatewith me. But I was just like,
that's there was norepresentation. So finding ways
that we can honor those bigevents in our lives, whether
it's taking your first dose ofHRT whether it's, you know,
coming out whether it's going toyour first queer, political
action, all of these are kind ofbig deals. And how do we use

(09:19):
magic to not only honor thatmoment, and give it the
reverence and impact that itdeserves? But how can we also
use magic to give us morecourage to go through it? How
can we use magic to solidifyour, our chosen family for
example, like there's thingsthat magic can really help with

(09:43):
in our queer lives? So thereason I wrote this book is I
had seen many rituals sort ofscattered through a bunch of
books for a few different queerrites of passage, but I hadn't
seen one book that's like, hereyou go, this is your queer
Grimoire This is everything youneed for all your rites of
passage. And so that's, that'swhat I put together.

It's so great, because rituals are so
important, even outside of apagan framework. You know, as a
therapist, I often talk topeople about the importance of
rituals, like, even if it'severyday rituals, right? When I
work with couples or poly kills,okay, how if you live together?
How do you create each other inthe morning? How do you come

(10:26):
back together? You know, how doyou manage those transitions?
Right? And I don't know if it'sbecause I'm neurodivergent or
because I was brought upCatholic and then became pagan
that I think that you know, andthere's some good literature as
well, why we need ritual ashumans, but we need like, those
intentional moments, right?
Because otherwise, we just gothrough life and, and that

(10:46):
intentionality does bring like asacredness with it. Right?
Especially, you know, when we dokind of pagan Rachel. And so
when I saw that this was yournext book, I was like, Yes, we
absolutely need this. This is agreat idea. And I know, it's
something that people havereally grappled with, right.
I've worked with a lot of youngpeople where maybe they in their
family and their faith communitydecided to do some sort of

(11:10):
naming ritual when thetransition, and it's so it has
so many layers, right? It's notjust for the young person, it's
also for the family, thecommunity, right? Because some
ritual might be by ourselves.
But some rituals might be withother people, right, like, and
enter just I think what I loveabout pagan rituals is that it's

(11:35):
not about all this kind ofthings that capitalism puts on
rites of passage andcelebrations, but it's really
like, what is our intention?
What is our focus, right? How dowe do this? That is so exciting.
And like you said, there isn'tanything like that. Because
also, I don't know about you,but when I first came into
paganism, how long ago is this?

(11:59):
over 25 years ago, at thispoint, I feel so old sometimes.
Maybe close to 30 years at thispoint, when I came into
paganism. Gender was very binarythere wasn't a lot of queerness
in pagan spaces, at least in myexperience, you know, first
started exploring paganism inthe UK and then I moved to the

(12:21):
so called us over here but thejust I mean, I think there's
still not enough course spacesbut definitely 25 For two years
ago, even less so it was verymuch more than lady and Wicca
you know, very binary. I don'tknow if that was your experience
too. And if that was part ofkind of your desire to produce
some of the work the beautifulwork you have done both in terms

(12:44):
of teaching and books

Absolutely, it was part of my not only my spiritual
journey, but my my own genderjourney as well was having that
moment of you know, I kind ofcame to sort of came to paganism
late I had my first girlfriendin college introduced me to
Wicca and we did like a couplelittle ritual things sort of, at
our Catholic College. Very, verynaughty. But then I didn't

(13:12):
really start to explore andpractice deeply apart from those
couple of silver Raven wolfbooks that I got early on in
their lives started to get intoit. Yep, oh, we've all been
there. And, you know, respectthis. This was what we had. And
it was great for the time and Iknow, silver is still producing
some great stuff. But for me, Icame into my tradition is a

(13:34):
syncretic Wiccan tradition. Andso I read a lot of stuff about
Wicca. And as you say, there's alot of Lord and Lady, there's a
lot of like, myths for fertilitycycles in the mythology, and
very much heteronormativecoupling, and all of that, and I
sort of took it as wrote itfirst, which is sort of weird,
considering, you know, I was awomen's studies minor, you know,

(13:57):
I am a queer person, I didn'tquite know the non binary thing
at the time when I startedexploring, but it sort of hit me
one day, I was like, you know,especially when we started
learning about masculine andfeminine energy. And this idea
that, I call it sort of the IKEAtheory of magic, you have this
masculine form of energy, whichis very active and projective
and positive and this feminineenergy, which is receptive, and

(14:21):
negative and passive, and InsertTab A into slot B, you get
magic, right? And the more Ithought about it, the more I'm
like, okay, I can see, this issort of training wheels, right?
This is the idea of, you know,there are so many different
kinds of energy that it'soverwhelming. So if we limit to
two that sort of interact in avery simple way. That makes

(14:42):
sense, but why do we have tocall them masculine and feminine
energy? Why can't we just callit projective and receptive?
Because when you look at howthey are described, you know,
masculine is active and positiveand projective and feminine is
receptive, and you know, all ofthat. It just sounds like gender

(15:04):
roles under patriarchy. Andwe're basically just
perpetuating that in ourtraditions. So to me, it's like,
let's just sand off the genderlabels, we don't need them, you
can still use these types ofenergy, I think they exist. But
why do we call them that? Andwhy do we reinforce patriarchy
with our teachings, I think is abig issue because it's still

(15:27):
happening. It's not like it wentaway 10 years ago, you know,
it's still a thing. And so oneof the classes I teach is
queering, your magical practice,and I have people think about
that, and they're like, Arethere only two types of energy,
even if you are a dyed in thewool Wiccan, we still have
things like the four elements,we still have the pentacle, like

(15:48):
there's all these multifacetedenergy interactions that
transcend this binary gendermetaphor. So just reminding
people that the and the power ofthe liminal I think, is
something a lot of us arefamiliar with, as well, the
things that are both andneither. So thinking about that
and thinking about, you know, ifI'm calling to the divine

(16:09):
masculine to the divinefeminine, what about the divine
both and neither? So thatcertainly exists and to ignore,
it actually erases our historyand our folklore, because we
have so many gender fluiddeities throughout pantheons.
And, you know, ones who changeand who, you know, will disguise

(16:30):
themselves as the other genderand you know, things like that.
So, it's, it's so important towiden our lens, like, I'm not
trying to tell people, thegoddess doesn't exist, you know,
I certainly wouldn't do that.
But But widening our lens, andseeing there's more than just
masculine and feminine, I think,is, is a really crucial message
to get across to a lot of data.

And it's so reductive when we think about
it, and just the small way,right? It's reductive of nature,
there's a lot of queerreproduction in nature, right?
So it's also reductive of thejust the magic that's inherent
in the world. It feels like andyeah, I remember, I was now out
as trans, not even to myself,when I first came into paganism,

(17:15):
I was queer. And somehow evenlike, you know, I knew that, for
example, Dianic traditions werenot for me, there was just
something that didn't workthere, right? Even though I was
reading a lot from some of theauthors of the time, and then a
lot of second wave feministswitches, right. And somehow
the, that was just notresonating. Right, that didn't

(17:36):
feel like quite fitting with myexperience. And over the, you
know, this last two or threedecades, I've seen some
attempts, you know, sometimespeople are like, well, we have
the LORD than lady, but itdoesn't matter which gender the
people are. And I was like,that's great. But you're still
repeat, like you said, we'restill reproducing the same

(17:56):
messages. And we need to askourselves, where did some of
those things came from? Youknow, because some of the things
did come from like the 40s andthe 50s, where gender roles were
in a certain way. And when wetake the much broader, you know,
not just white supremacist, notjust colonial perspective,

(18:18):
actually so much more. Magic isso much more expensive, right?
And mysterious ones are so muchmore expensive and but sometimes
it upsets people I remembersaying to somebody was like,
well, not all DD even apart fromthe gender bending DVDs, right?
Not all DVDs are kind of have tobe sis and they're like, What do

(18:38):
you mean, I was like, well,well, if prayer is more what we
would call a trans woman thatwould make sense to me in terms
of Amazon's and, like, I call itthe animals like, the way we
think about gender doesn't haveto be biological, that something
is kept pretty well. When yousay things on what's been your
experience of like reallyclearing pagans pieces when you

(19:00):
teach her present? Like do youget any pushback? Do you get any
kind of other no discomfort fromfolks or? Yeah.

I find that I'm usually teaching a workshop that
is one of many at a conferenceand people tend to self select
for what messages they want tohear. So I have not had a ton of
pushback. But I do want to becareful when I teach especially
I'm teaching at an event in inGlastonbury this summer. That's

(19:33):
the goddess conference and a lotof is very goddess focused and I
one thing I really respect aboutthis event is they want to be
extremely gender inclusive, andthey made a point to invite lots
of trans and non binary speakersincluding yours truly. So I love
that they are pushing thatespecially given the location.
But I want to be very consciousof the fact that for a lot of

(19:55):
people, finding goddess worshipwas revolutionary. for them
having been brought up in apatriarchal religion with one
masculine God, finding somethingthat better reflects who they
are inside or forces that theywant to honor. Even if they
don't personally identify withthem, they want to honor this

(20:16):
other side of things. I want torespect that, and I don't want
to be like, you know, just throwit all out. And we're all, you
know, it's all queer Gods now.
And that's it. So I want to becareful, because I want to
respect where people are comingfrom. But I do want to gently
pry open the viewpoint just alittle bit where I can. And
sometimes I do feel a littlenervous, because I will be

(20:39):
speaking to my own tradition,where a lot of people are just
like, masculine, feminine, youknow, that's what it is. And I'm
like, Okay, but what about more?
Like, how can we take it to thenext level? And that's the
framework I try to go from,rather than, like, everything
we've done before is wrong. Howdo we take it to the next level?

(20:59):
How do we expand on that andmake it more all encompassing,
because as you say, it's, it'snot only erasing a lot of our
folklore, and you know, ourdeities, but also human
existence, like, we have transpeople, we have intersex people,
we have all kinds of things thatyou want your magic to encompass

(21:20):
kind of the totality of humanexistence, human animal and
everything else. So becausequeer people exist, queer,
magical things exist and shouldbe honored and recognized.

Yeah, and I totally agree with you. And I
know, I mean, even for me, like,you know, I'm, I was born in 71,
you know, like, just kind of thedivine feminine, you know,
second way I was brought up asecond wave feminists, you know,
that when I have a degree, a PhDin women's studies, it was
called women's studies of thetime, you know, and it's no use

(21:53):
to teach Women's Studies. And soit is really powerful. And I
want to be respectful of legacyand at the same time, knowing
that there is so much more,right, because I think it's,
it's easy to just kind of think,that Kedah know, 30 years or 40
years or 50 years, right, ratherthan this much bigger picture of
how did we come to be underChristian supremacy? What does

(22:16):
it mean to reclaim some of ourtraditions? And some of our
histories, you know, dependingof where, where our ancestors
are, right? And it's such a bothend work for me if that makes
sense, right? That there wassomething that I was grasping, I
in my mind around the limiting,that it doesn't just impact I

(22:38):
was thinking as you weretalking, I don't think this only
impacts trans and queer folksand intersex folks. I think it
also impacts just sis people,even sis straight people, you
know, I think about how muchimportance for example, we give
sometimes to the womb, you know,the warm house like general,
like life and creativity. AndI've seen sis women go through a

(23:01):
real identity crisis, if theyneeded to have an
hysterectomies, for example.
What does it mean? If have ahysterectomy due to health
issue? Does that make me less ofa powerful witch? Does that make
me less of a woman? Where doesmy power come from? Right? When
we attached to like an organ?
You know, like, that's wherelife comes from. That's where
magic comes from creativitycomes from, I think it can be

(23:24):
really hurtful to everybody thatI don't know, does that make
sense? It just feels like Idon't know, if you've absolutely
seeing just how if we reducethings to small how that impacts
folks.

Certainly, and back when I thought I was CES,
we all have those periods. Backwhen I thought I was just I
never wanted to have children. Ihad no interest in bearing
children naturally in adoptingthem anything. And so when
people are like, Oh, the mightypower of the womb, I'm like, no,
like, That's not. That's notwhere I feel my source of power

(24:02):
is that's not I do not, I didnot opt into these factory
specs. And I do not wish to Iwould like to void the warranty
like and you eat that out of mysystem. But and so having people
be like, well, to be truly awoman is to the end. It's like,
no, it's about so much more. Andit's one of the things I loved

(24:24):
was the book jailbreaking TheGoddess that takes that sort of
triplicate form that a lot ofpeople love maiden mother Crone.
But like have we had that if wedon't tie it to reproductive
cycles, and your ability to bearchildren, whether you foreign
children, whether you're too oldto bear children, is kind of a
as you say, reductive way tolook at the lifecycle of a sis

(24:45):
woman. There's so much more sotaking that into this five fold
model that was arefox. Allendoes, where it's different fate
you could be any of them in anyphase of life, I think was
really important work and thetime One thing we really need to
continue doing and payingattention to is, you know, while

(25:05):
a lot of people do feeltremendous power from their
fertility and their ability tocreate children, and I want to
respect that it is noteverybody's experience. And so
when, as you say, we tie ourmagic specifically to that one
aspect that is just one part ofbeing a human, it really makes
it harder for other people tofind themselves in the magic,

(25:26):
whether they're sis trans orotherwise,

you know, and even, which is so interesting,
because I was a gestationalparent for my oldest child, you
know, and it's, for me, I waslike, Oh, my body's finally
doing exactly what it was meantto do. I had the least gender
dysphoria when I was pregnant,which I know is not true for
other trans masculine people,right. But there was something

(25:49):
about that experience thatworked for me, but not in that
paradigm of like, motherhood,you know, that didn't quite fit,
you know, but like the Yes,gestation is its own experience,
just like aging, it's its ownexperience, just like
transitioning. It's its ownexperience, right, we're, we're

(26:10):
such multifaceted human and Ilove what you said about also
the power of the liminal. Youknow, as I am that I think that
when we put things into liketidy boxes or binaries, then we
lose a bit of that power of theliminal maybe. And I would love
for you to talk more about that,that power. I think that one

(26:31):
thing that queerness brings tomagic is the liminality. Right,
the power of the liminal. But Iwould love to hear like your
thoughts about liminality andmagic and gender, and queerness,
if you want to.

Of course, yeah, it reminds me of one of my
favorite slides I've evercreated for our workshop is
explaining to people many of thedifferent labels of queerness,
the different types ofqueerness, you know, gender,
queer, gender, fluid, all ofthese different like sort of non
binary labels. And then the nextslide is just a friendly
reminder to folks that you don'tget to determine anyone else's

(27:08):
identity, people get to picktheir own labels, because as any
cat will tell you, havingsomeone else put you in a box is
an entirely different experiencefrom you getting into a box
yourself. So, you know, justreminding people like you know,
remember be a cat you know, theremember what it's like to be a
cat and don't get it don't putother people in boxes they don't

(27:30):
want to be in. So yeah, thepower of the liminal is, is so
profound, and it's something Icontinue to explore. Because
we're coming out of the Age ofPisces into the Age of Aquarius
and Pisces loves, like black andwhite, this or that, you know,
this box or this box, there isno in between and the Age of

(27:53):
Aquarius is much more hey, whatif it's, you know, a lot more
fluid than that. And I'm reallyexcited. We're coming into that
era, because there's so muchmore opportunity to for
expansive thought in that. Sowithin my magic, I try to be
open to all sorts of differentenergies and spirits. And one of

(28:16):
the things with my first book,queer Kabbalah that I found
particularly profound, just in asimple look at the structure of
the tree of life, is that youhave what some people call the
masculine pillar, and what somecall the feminine pillar, but
then you have one in between,that's the pillar of balance.
And in that pillar of balance,it takes the energies from the

(28:36):
other two pillars and transmutesthem into something new and
something different andsomething more powerful. So this
idea that, yes, perhaps we dohave these binaries. But then
there's this thing that's bothand neither that that gets us
from the ultimate perfect unityof the universe down to the

(28:59):
chaos of manifestation. And allof the things this infinite
manifestation that we live in ofall different genders and
sexualities, and people of alldifferent types. And the fact
that those are both thoseexperiences were both on this
middle pillar, they're notconsidered masculine experiences
or feminine experiences, theyare considered this, both and

(29:22):
neither. And I think that's whatcreation is. It's, it's
everything and, and it's bothprofound, intense unity, but
also infinite, compelling,wonderful diversity. And for me,
that's an incredibly profoundmagical concept.

I love that I really want to stay with that a
moment because I think that ispart of what I really love about
your work is that, thatexpansiveness right that that
and that expansiveness does feelthere's something sacred in that
expansiveness Straight, there'ssomething very, like secret and

(30:05):
connecting about thatexpensiveness. Whereas, you know
what, I find that whenever Icome across traditions where
things are like, it's this andthis right, very binary, this
Lord and Lady, everybody justfeels a little more scrunched
up, regardless of their genderidentity, right, there's just
more constriction. And so I loveyou know, why constraint? Why

(30:27):
try to constrict magic whenmagic can be just as expansive
as life? Right? I mean, it islife, right is that spark of
creation, that spark of life?
And that is so expansive? And ina way, its own mystery, right?
of both? And neither, like yousaid, and yes, presence and
absence at the same time and allof that.

I think expensive.
This is our word for thepodcast, I think between us,
we've probably said it about2030 times now, which I'm
totally fine with completelytrue. But you know, and it's
also it's a challenge that Ioffer to people who are in
positions of power with invarious pagan traditions, is to
consider are you really beinginclusive? Or are you just sort

(31:15):
of painting a label on somethinglike, I know, within the OTO,
there was a whole situation withlike, oh, yeah, non binary
people can be priests, they justhave to decide if they're going
to be the masculine, feminineand ritual. And it's like,
that's, that's not the same asbeing inclusive. That is forcing
people to make a choice or like,well, we always stand boy, girl,

(31:37):
boy, girl, and circle. So justdecide which one you're going to
be. And it's like, a that's,that's what, it's the antithesis
of being non binary, you know,being asked to choose. It's
like, no, that's we've made achoice that is neither Thank
you, or neither, or both. So Ithink that's something that
there are folks, particularlywho are maybe from older

(32:00):
generations who are trying tocatch up and want to be
inclusive and want to bring innew people. But they're not
asking those people how theycould feel included, and they're
just sort of making assumptionsabout what works. And then
they're surprised when theydon't get new members who are
more gender expansive, they'relike, but but we put the label
on the thing, like, you know,that's it's not the same. We

(32:23):
need to be not just allies, butco creators of spaces that are
welcoming and inclusive andaffirming and empowering to
people of all different gendersand sexualities. If you just
say, Oh, you're welcome to ourpicnic, but you better do things
exactly the way they've beendone for the last 5060 years.
And by the way, just sort ofoverlook the fact that they make

(32:46):
you feel alienated. That's notwelcomed,

trying to assimilate people in you know,
it's like that. And I see thatwith, in so many traditions
around, I mean, even in my ownreclaiming tradition, and some
of the work of like, wanting tobe more welcoming to like folks
of color, but then not wantingto do things differently. And
I'm like, Well, this is not howit's gonna work. Like, if you

(33:13):
have new people into the circleare gonna bring change. That's
just how humans work. Right? Ifour circle broadens, then our
circle is gonna change. Andthat's part of the beauty of
creation and relationship andinterdependence. And yeah, I'm
with you, I see so much of like,you were like, I remember,

(33:37):
people don't you're totallywelcome to this moon circle. And
I was like, and are trans women.
Welcome, if it's a women onlyspace, and why am I welcome?
Right? Because I'm a woman, youknow, and I'm like, that is not
that doesn't make me feelwelcome actually makes me feel
really erased and unseen and notokay. You know, and I remember
having this conversations overand over, and often with people

(33:59):
my age or even younger than Iam, you know, not just for
people older than me. And Ithink that that's the thing, so
many queer folks have beenpresent in paganism by being
like how to push out oftradition or at the edges of
tradition, because I know folksin their late 60s and 70s, who
are like, we would say genderqueer or trans or non binary,

(34:21):
obviously, I mean, the nonbinary language wasn't even
there. When I first came out. Ithink I went from gender queer
to trans masculine, you know, tonon binary, like, what is even
language right? But there'salways been this parent, but
it's been like pushed aside andnow there is just it's almost

(34:41):
like a number game. There's justsuch a presence. You know, even
the last witch camp I was thatthere were so many trans non
binary and queer youngerwitches. I was like, Oh, my
traditional because I've taken alittle break during the
pandemic. The tradition ischanging, you know that there's
many more of us or than fatnecessarily into certain boxes.

(35:08):
And that that's changed thingsbecause you know, if there's one
or two of you is different thanif there are 1020 30 of you
right in a circle.

Right? On the COVID cocoon was really profound
for a lot of us, myself,included, you know, when you
take us away from our socialspaces for long enough, and we
have to examine Who am I apartfrom what people expect me to
be, suddenly, things happen. Butone thing I'm very fortunate
within my tradition, becausewhile our charter when I, you
know, came out as non binary andthen at the same time was

(35:44):
looking to become one of theleaders of our tradition to run
my coven. I was like, Look, youknow, I'm non binary and our it
says, Every cupboard has to havea high priest and a high
priestess. And we currently hada high priestess in my Coven,
who was the, you know, siswoman. And I said, you know, if

(36:04):
the only thing preventing mefrom filling the leadership void
when our high priests left,yeah, is a penis, that's stupid.
And, you know, I'm, I'm nonbinary, I feel like I shouldn't
be able to step is, is thischarter saying, I can't be a
leader because I don't identifyas a priest or a priestess. And

(36:25):
ultimately, we got the traditionto change the charter. And it
was kind of a non a no brainerfor the tradition. They're like,
yeah, obviously, we should dothis. And now it says two
leaders for every Coven andleaves it at that. So yeah, the
main reason it was in there, Ibelieve, was so that nobody
tried to form a single gendercoven. Because they wanted to

(36:45):
make sure that there is welcomeddiversity and all of our covens
gender and otherwise. So I'mglad that we have that
consciousness, but also now therules that say, basically,
anyone can be a leader. And I'mnot the only one who's done that
too. We now have other covenswith two sis women leading them

(37:05):
where before, there was no wayfor someone who is a sis woman
to step up and a coven thatalready had a high priestess. So
it's been good for cis people aswell. Not really limiting who is
able to be leadership based onwho's already there. Actually,
when

We think about gender and leadership, and
especially like in pagan spaces,where it's often it tends to be
more traditionally I think, famfolks than like cis men, for
example, in my experience, andso then you get this man coming
in going straight intoleadership straight into
teaching straight into Oh, youknow, we need to have a man on

(37:40):
the team otherwise, right? Andit's like, it's just like, oh,
this is like the, you know,mundane world all over again.
You know, I've been in a lot oflike, female majority
professions, but male dominatedleadership, right? education,
healthcare. I was like, oh,magic, nonprofits, nonprofits,

(38:02):
no doubt. And so it's like, it'slike, the penis was like this
highway into leadership. And I'mlike, is this really nice? T
shirt?

Yeah, I just think that's a great slogan.

And I was like, Do we really need to do that in
pagan circles, especiallybecause it's like, on one hand,
it is very goddess centeredstill, in a lot of ways, which
is powerful in a Christiansupremacist kind of over
culture. But then it's again,this like this patriarchy. And
this pipeline to leadership wasreally favored man in a lot of

(38:41):
traditions, in my experience.

Yeah, same here.
And that was something that Iwas noticing as well within my
tradition. And it puts a lot ofpressure on men to like, it's
not necessarily a good thing forthem, either. Because there's
kind of pressure like, well, wedon't have a high priest, we've
only got one dude in the coven.
Guess what? You're going to be aleader, even if they're super
not ready for that. So it wasn'tnecessarily good.

You like it or not? You have to, you know, fit
into this role. Absolutely. So,yeah, I have so many thoughts
about that. And I was like, Icould talk for quite a while you
and I think that I know one ofthe things I was kind of looking

(39:29):
at like mellow notes, because Iusually make myself just some
very loose notes of like, thingsI could talk about with this
guest. Really, this kind ofwe've talked a little bit about
it, but I'm just really curiousabout while you know, to kind of
go back to the beginning, whatwere the rights when you were

(39:52):
writing the book that's comingout in early in 2025? What were
the rights that maybe you didn'timmediately Think about that, as
you were writing the book,you're like, oh, yeah, this
rights linked to queerness arelinked to gender even, that
maybe were a little bit moreunexpected or not quite what was

(40:13):
right there on the surface, ifthat makes sense.

Yeah, so I turned in my initial draft of the book,
and my editor came back saying,This is great, give us a few
more rituals. And it was like, Ihave already encapsulated all of
queer experience like, I hadn't,but you know, I was like, I'm
out of ideas. What do I do? AndI sort of pulled aside a couple
of my queer friends like help.
And they had some good ideas.

(40:41):
Thankfully. i My friend,Reverend Ron padrone said, What
about going to your first queerpolitical action. And I was
like, Oh, that is a good one.
Because for a lot of people,they don't actually get involved
in politics until they realizehow very personal those politics
are. So for a lot of peoplecoming out may be pretty closely

(41:01):
tied to their first politicalaction, whether it's
specifically a queer one or not.
And that is a scary thing. Andin a previous job, I actually
helped train people to becomegrassroots advocates, and how to
call your members of Congressand why it's not as scary as it
sounds, and all of that kind ofthing. Pro tip for anyone
listening, if you have resisteddoing this a you can call after

(41:25):
hours, leave a voicemail and nottalk to a human if you want, it
has the same impact. Be theperson answering the phone as an
intern, and they have nointerest or time and debating
you. So do not be afraid call dothe thing. It makes a bigger
impact than emailing anyway,that's the short version of
everything I did for two years.
But But anyway, I thought, yeah,that's a scary thing for people.

(41:46):
People are scared to getinvolved politically, and you
know, especially with howliterally dangerous certain
protests are and things. What dopeople need, it's a rite of
passage, but it also can be avery scary thing. So I'm calling
up the courage of our queerancestors And our queer advocate
ancestors. And in that ritualactually challenged people to

(42:06):
find a local queer ancestor whowas politically active if they
can, someone from their region,who they can call into their
spirit and say, Hey, will youwalk with me today as I do the
scary thing, so that was onethat wasn't immediately obvious,
but I think it would be helpful.
Another one, I kind of resisteddoing ones related to romantic

(42:28):
relationships, because Ithought, it's not a uniquely
queer thing to have a romanticrelationship. But then the more
I thought about it, the morelike, you know, if you've gone
through your life, assumingyou're straight or sis, your
first time entering arelationship, where one of at
least one of you is queer, canbe kind of a new thing,

(42:49):
especially if you've come to arecent understanding of yourself
that's different from what ithas been, there can be a
tendency to sort of slide backinto previous patterns, of maybe
things that didn't work for youin the past. And of course, we
can do this with allrelationships, right? But like,
if you have just come out as atrans man, and you're getting

(43:09):
into a relationship, maybe witha cisgender person, maybe with
another trans person, but maybeyou feel compelled to act a
certain way based on history andwhat you have done. So how can
you have a rite of passage thathelps you step into that
relationship as your authenticself, and not compromise that?

(43:31):
And the more I thought aboutthat, I'm like, okay, yeah, this
wasn't something I originallywanted to write about. But now I
think it is actually reallyimportant to your first queer
relationship is kind of a bigdeal. And how do you make sure
that you don't either devolveinto stereotype or, or just
like, especially if you are withsomeone who is not queer, I

(43:52):
think there's also a concernabout erasing yourself or a fear
with someone who's queer, butnot out. There's some
interesting dynamics there. Sothose were two of the new ones
that I wrote, I'm trying tothink of what the third one was,
because I came up with three newones to add, and it's just
escaped my brain. But yeah,those were a couple that weren't
immediately like, yes, ofcourse, we need a ritual for

(44:15):
this. But the more I thoughtabout it, the more I thought, no
we do, we do need rituals for

these things, where relationships in
particular rituals can be soimportant because we know that
relationships have a higherchance of ending if there isn't
support, for example, frompeople around you right from the
community. And that is one ofthe challenges that queer
relationships face or Iremember, you know, one of my
friends talking about how scaryit was to hold the hand of

(44:41):
somebody of the same gender forthe first time, which was also
cultural, right? Because for me,I was like, oh, culturally, I've
done a lot of holding hands withmy like friends of the same
gender growing up, but noteverybody does. That was that
historical and cultural momentwhere that wasn't seen as queer
Whereas my peers in othergeographical spaces left the UK

(45:04):
in the US, and that of mygeneration had experienced that
being seen as queer andinappropriate, right? And so all
the things that we don't thinkabout, or like, the first time I
went to pride, I still remembermy first big London pride,
right? And it's like just thatcoming into this, like sea of
people, you know, and howpowerful that can be.

(45:26):
Absolutely. Those moments arerites of passage they do. You
know, it's like, who you werebefore and who you were, after
that moment is different in someway, you are changed and
transformed. And that is magic,right?

Yeah, and you just reminded me what the third one
is, it's a ritual for going intoyour first queer community event
or space. As like, you know,because yeah, it can be scary,
it can be so scary. And youdon't just do rite of passage
rituals, because you're afraidbut, but they do have the
ability to help bolster you andhelp you step bravely into a new

(46:04):
phase of your life and all thedifferent things that

I find the magic is like, so grounding and
strengthening for me that when Iget caught up in the grind of
the day, today, and if I, if mypractice goes on the wayside,
that really impacts right myability and capacity to engage
with the world, right, just,there's something about my
spiritual practice that reallyexpands my capacity to be

(46:29):
present with myself with my workwith my family. And it's just I
don't know if it's thatintentionality if it has that
connection to something greaterthan we are as individuals, but
it does give us strength, youknow, which we might need, like,
I remember, yeah, just standingon the other side of the street

(46:50):
to the gay pub, like, you know,Saturday night after Saturday
night, not just not being ableto go in, right, or like,
calling the helpline because theinternet wasn't quite as what it
is now, or, you know, thenfinally going into my first
like, queer coffee shop, which,you know, or the first time I

(47:10):
went into a queer feminist techstore, you know, all of those
moments are pretty pivotal andimportant in people's lives.
Yeah.

Yeah, the first time you take on new pronouns,
and tell it having the courageto tell people about it, having
the courage to correct peopleafter you've told them about it,
and they mess it up. There's alot and just the trying to get
past the imposter syndrome. ofit, especially I grew up in
Minnesota. And there is acultural thing there with like,

(47:43):
not wanting to be a bother topeople, not wanting to make
anyone make an effort for you,you got to be easy, you know,
super easy to deal with, and youdon't want to make waves. But,
so having to overcome that,because there's, oh, I don't
deserve to be respected in thisway. Because it's hard for
people to respect me in thisway. Coming to the point where

(48:05):
you're like, No, I deserve to berespected in this way. And even
if it's a bother, even if it'shard for somebody, I'm going to
keep asking them or demandingthat they respect me in this
way, because I would do thesame.

I'm deeply familiar. Having lived in
Minnesota for the past 16 years.
Yeah, it'll be 16 years thissummer. With the midwest of
Minnesota and culture of likenot being a bad or not being a
burden, you know, not wanting toeat the last thing left on a
plate, you know, my Oh,

my Oh, whatever eats the last cookie ever. Maybe
that's how we got the the wholething about leaving an offering
for like the ancestors of thespirits is no one would eat the
last one. So pagans here. Here'sthe thing that kills me it just

(49:00):
this isn't necessarily on topic,but I spent, I lived in
Minnesota from age two to 25. SoI spent 23 years of my life
there. And I started to dabblein paganism in college. As I
said, I went to college and St.
Paul. I had no idea how big thepagan community was until I had
been gone for 10 years. I livedin Maryland, and people were

(49:22):
like, I still live in Maryland.
I've been here since 2005. Soalmost 20 years at this point,
and be like, Oh, you're fromMinnesota, you must have been so
active in the pagan culture oflike, what pagan culture I had
no clue. None. I knew two paganstotal in my whole life that I
was aware of, and just no idea.
And then I found out that like,my dad had gone to classes, like

(49:43):
when I was a teenager, like upin Minneapolis on on various
esoteric topics, and I'm like,could you have told me about
these? I would have liked tohave gone to those when I got
older, you know? So yeah, it'sit's one of those fascinating
things. I never knew and comingto pick on a con and seeing how
many people are there. I'm like,Are you kidding me? Where were

(50:04):
all of you my whole life? Iwould have loved to know all of
you, especially with how manyfolks there are there

There is culture, I have to say in some ways,
right? There was this like, anaccident, there was like a huge
pagan community, a huge queerand trans community, you know.
And also, like a queer nerd, abig nerdy community, a big
polyamorous community, I think,underneath the surface, but you
kind of have to look for it. Iremember when I first moved

(50:33):
there was like, oh, where's thecommunity? And people were like,
there isn't one. And I'm like,Okay, give me five minutes.
Like, there's seriously just alittle bit more underground than
say, like the West Coast, forexample. But it's there. And
it's actually pretty, prettylarge. All of the scenes are
pretty big here, Minnesota,which is not what people think

(50:56):
sometimes when they think aboutthe state.

Yeah, and since I left, y'all got burlesque and
roller derby. Like, where wasthat when I was like, that would
have been so cool to getinvolved in. But, you know, it's
okay. Like, I guess places Ileft are allowed to evolve and
change and get better, Isuppose.

But that's okay.
But yeah, like, I feel like Iwas born like 30 2040 years too
early. Now, that would be allthis cool things that totally
wanted to do as a kid or as ayoung person, you know, but it's
like, it's so interesting. Oh,yeah.

Well, and circling back to the queer rites of
passage book, like I said, Iwant this to be the manual, but
I want it to sort of be a giftto my past self to not only be
able to look through this andsay, Oh, these are things people
can do. But also, just so like,yes, going through, this is a
big deal, even if our culturedoesn't necessarily tell you

(51:58):
that. And it's okay to make abig deal of it and honor it, and
honor your emotions around it,because they can be pretty
intense. So I'm, I'm reallyhopeful that this book is found
by a lot of younger folks, I'mhoping it's found by people of
all ages, of course, but like,if someone's really starting,
whatever their age, their genderjourney, their sexuality

(52:18):
journey, I'm hoping they canfind this book and be like, oh,
and then and feel better.
Because rites of passage areanchors to the self, I think
they tell us where we've been,where we are and where we're
going. And I feel like it's onething we really lack culturally,
right now is those anchors tothe self, and who am I where
I've been, and where I'm going,we sort of have this weird

(52:41):
miasma right now of, we've just,we're still in 2016. Like so
many of us, we're still in 2016.
And 2020, time is a flat circle.
And we now more than ever, weneed to have those moments where
you put a line in the sand andsay, This is where I am, this is
who I am.

And what I love is that they are an anchor to
itself. And they can also be ananchor to community. If we have
like a circle of people that wewant buy into some of those
rites of passage, then it's alsoan anchor to each other. And I
think we need that relationalpiece more than ever, you know,
remembering how to be acommunity how to be in

(53:25):
relationship with each other,how to support one another,
right? How to really seeourselves through the end of
empire and late stagecapitalism, you know, and
everything that we're goingthrough right now.

Yeah, and I'm so grateful for, you know, of
course, everyone's we stand onthe shoulders of giants, right?
The people who wrote the firstqueer magical books that I read,
Misha Magdalene, Cassandra snow,like, there's been such amazing
work Ariana serpentine morerecently, who also wrote the
foreword for queer rights, whichI'm really excited about. I was

(54:02):
like, I really want to make sureI have as many trans voices
involved in this as possible. SoI, I think it's we're in a
wonderful time, as you say, it'slike, how was I born way too
early? Because there's thisexplosion of queer magic. Yes,
books and information andcircles and groups, and it's

(54:22):
wonderful. It's absolutelywonderful. And I'm so thankful
that I got to a point in myjourney where I could write a
book and release it at a timewhen that book was desired, you
know, by the publisher, and notlike, oh, you know, just, oh,
you're perverts get out of here.
Yeah. It's, it's like, no, thisis a community we need to reach.
These are people who we want tohave as customers, buying our

(54:46):
books. I mean, it's anincredible time to be alive in a
lot of ways and a terrifyingtime for many other reasons.
But, but it's, I compare it towhat I grew up with. Oh, how
differently Like,

even when I went through my initiation, you know
that finding information aboutqueerness and magic, you really
had to look at like, history.
You know, I remember readingblossom a bone, you know, to
understand like how Oh yeah,they've always been like, queer
people, right? But it was a muchmore like, historical
perspective rather than here'slike queer magic where spirit,

(55:21):
right? And of course, you know,really honoring the work those
like radical theories have done,you know, for better or worse
and all the challenges aroundtrans inclusivity. But still,
right. And it doesn't surpriseme that there always been a lot
of queer and trans folks inpaganism because often, we were
the spirit workers, the healers,the edge walkers, right in a lot

(55:45):
of traditions and cultures. Andso it's, it's almost like, as
we're going through this moment,of really challenging, you know,
white supremacy and colonialism,it makes sense to me that there
is also this explosion of queerspirit, which is beautiful.

Yeah, and paganism tends to draw people from the
margins in one way or another,like this, this isn't the place
to go if you're afraid ofseeming weird, you know? Like,
or if you are, you're gonna getover it fairly quickly, I think
because, you know, there'salways that moment early in your
practice where you're like, Ifeel very silly. Right now I am

(56:26):
standing in front of my endtable holding a stick and saying
a chant. And I haven't quitegotten to the mental place of
no, this is an altar and a wandand a sacred thing. I you know,
we all have those moments ofjust, yep, I, I am being very
weird right now. And you kind ofhave to be okay with that at a

(56:47):
point. So those of us on thefringes are kind of used to
being outcasts, and behaving inways that people would not
expect or desire. And so yeah, alot of us come to paganism,
which is part of why we need tobe really make good efforts to
be inclusive of people of alldifferent backgrounds,
sexualities, genders, races,ethnicities, like everything, we

(57:10):
really need to meet people wherethey're at and help them blossom
into the best version of them,they can be not the best version
of what we think they should

be. That's beautiful. I feel like I could
talk with you for like anotherthree hours, but I want to be
respectful of your time. Butmaybe we'll just have to do
another episode. I love repeatguests. So just do it that way.
You will.

I would love that!

One question I always ask before we ended
episode is was there anythingelse that we haven't talked
about? That you were hoping wewould touch on? I always like to
you know, and if there isn't,that's okay. But always like to
ask that question. Um,

I think we had a wonderful conversation. The one
like little question I had in mymind for you actually, is I'm
wondering about yourrelationship with labels within
the queer community as anotherperson who is non binary because
I have sort of this paradoxicalrelationship, but I'm curious if
you are similar, like labelingyourself genderqueer versus non

(58:16):
binary versus

what question, you know, I find that I love
language. You know, my firstdegree is in linguistics. And
I've always looked at languageas like ever evolving,
interesting thing that we dobetween people, right
communication seems so simplebut it is not that simple. And
so in terms of labels, I feellike I've embraced so many

(58:39):
different labels over thelifespan for myself, you know,
and I'm not super attached, youknow, in a way, when the non
binary label came out, I waslike, oh, yeah, that is a better
description. Right. But I am,but I do also feel like, you
know, not every non binaryperson feels that way. But I

(59:02):
also do feel trans and genderactually, I'm not an androgynous
person, right. Like, I have my Ihave queer masculinity, but
that's different than androgyny.
Right. And so I think thatlanguage is so interesting, and
it's so relational, right?
Because it's like, in somecommunities, I would probably
describe myself as a transfaggot, you know, in a reclaimed

(59:25):
kind of way. But that is notsomething that I would
necessarily put like, in mypublic facing world because it's
not the most accessible oflanguage for a lot of people. So
for me, it's also like, what amI trying to communicate to the
world, right? So when I say I'mtrans masculine, non binary, I'm
trying to communicate that yes,I'm trans masculine, but now I'm

(59:47):
not a trans man. It's a littlemore complicated than that
right? Or when you know ourlabel, like I have a lot of
fondness and attachment to thelabel of bisexual because As I
feel like I owe so much to mycommunity, for how they helped
me when I went through my ownidentity crisis of like, you

(01:00:09):
know, or I guess I'm not a dyke,or in government, I guess I'm
also not a woman, this isgetting complicated. And I feel
like my community could reallyhold that complexity in a way
that I hadn't found in otherparts of queer communities. And
so, I don't know if that answersyour question, but I have a
very, like fluid and relational,I guess. relationship with

(01:00:36):
language and labels, and I'mlike, oh, maybe in 20 years,
I'll call myself something else.
Because better language, youknow, I've one of my friends was
like, I hate non binary. It'sjust why do we have to? It's
like negating right? When we wedefining ourselves according to
the binary, I'm like, I can seethat. But you know, it's also
very comprehensible in theoutside world at the moment,

(01:00:58):
rather than just having to golike, well, I have the queer
masculinity. And I'm trans. Andthat's a lot of words compared
to like, non binary, right? Idon't know. Right? Yeah. What
about you?

Enfys J Book (01:01:14):
Yeah, I feel you I, I think it's been so
interesting to see theproliferation of labels and
identities and helping us betterunderstand the nuances of our
gender and sexuality. And notonly understand them, but also
connect to people who use thesame label and fight Oh, you're
like me, you get it. But on theother hand, there's this thing
with labels to box people in andto be limiting. So it's, it's a

(01:01:38):
real gift to have that fluidrelationship with them. But the
outside world doesn't reallyjive with that most of the time.
Like, but wait, I thought yousaid you were this now you're
this, you know, and it's like,well, I didn't tell you I was
Xenogender, because you wouldn'tknow what that meant. And it
would be a longer conversationthan I felt like having at the
time, you know, so I just saynon binary, because that's a

(01:02:00):
word a lot of people know. So,but it's, it's that thing of
like trying to find the rightone. And then sometimes the
right one goes out of style,like the conversation about by
versus pansexuality. Sometimes Iwill often say I'm bisexual,
sometimes I say I'm by slashpan. You know, it's, it's kind
of a circular conversation thatI'm like, I'm not really sure

(01:02:21):
where I want to put myself here.
I'm, it's like, everyone is hot.
And I am scared. That's mysexuality. Like all the
different flavors, but But yeah,it's this interesting thing
where there's pressure to choosean exact label that may or may
not fit you in five or 10 yearstime and does if it doesn't fit

(01:02:42):
you does that negate that labellater? It's just, it's one of
those sorts of complicated,largely non binary things that I
curious what other non binarypeople think so thank you for
indulging me.

Alex Iantaffi (01:02:53):
I love talking about language and oh my god,
they're all bike versus panting.
I'm just like, it's okay. Like,kind of adjacent, but also
different. I'm like, I am notlike, you know, and I'm like,
gender plays a role in myattraction. Like, I'm mostly
attracted to, like, masculinity,regardless of gender identity,
which is also an interestingthing, you know, and also like,

(01:03:15):
and queer genders, right? Butthere isn't a way of saying
that. It's like, I'm attractedto queer this mostly, and kind
of queer masculinity orsomething that queers, like are
very masculine, like fans, forexample, right? And just
something that fears theexpectation of gender. And so

(01:03:36):
for me by fits better than andbecause I've had people like,
why don't you call yourselfpansexual? It's like, you know,
I feel like the definition oftranssexual is like, regardless
of gender, and I'm like, thegender plays a factor. My
attraction, which is not betteror worse, it's just different.
And maybe it's where my neurodivergence Yeah, the specificity

(01:03:58):
of it. Which it's a thing in ourhouse, right? We'll get
specific, it can be a veryinteresting moment. There's a
lot of Jordan divergence, butI'm, like, accurate.

I hear you, I think I put a glossary in the
queer rights book. And I definebisexuality and pansexuality.
And I say shares heavy overlapwith the other and the nuances
may be different depending onwho you talk to. It's kind of
where I left it. I'm like, I'msort of stepping out of this
one.

thing is that there was no buy versus pan that
I was aware of, like 25 yearsago, you know, and now it has
become more of a thing. And it'sbeen also really interesting to
for people be like, whathomosexuality is like, excludes
trans people as like, not anymore than any of the other
sexuality labels. What, like,no, that's not my experience. So

(01:04:59):
it was interesting I'll in thedesire to be inclusive we can
become, actually make up thingsthat don't need to be there if
that makes sense. I was like,total sensory of bi and trans
movements like collaborating andfinding each other and trans
people in my community and bypeople in trans community. I was

(01:05:23):
like, the overlap is huge. Whatare your look? You know what I
mean? It's like, when this wholediscourse exploded, I was like,
What, What is even happening?
When did this come from? Butyeah, so language? Yes, it's
fast. Yes. So fast. Yes.

Yeah, I was an English major too. So I also
share your love of language,both as a former English major
and also neurodivergent person,and always craving that
specificity. Beautiful

when you get it when it's just the right word
for the right experience. It'samazing. So love it. Oh, wow,
this has been wonderful. And Iknow I'll put all the links in
the episode description. But ifpeople wanted to find you and
your wonderful work, whereshould they look for you?

The easiest places is my website, which is
majorarqueerna.com That'smajorarqueerna.com. I'm
@majorarqueerna on Instagram andFacebook. I am no longer on the
network formerly known asTwitter. So if you see someone
pretending to be me, that's notme. But if you want to follow my

(01:06:39):
personal stuff, and see my catsand whatnot, you can find me
@enfysbook on Instagram and@enfysbook@kind.social on
Mastodon.

Thank you so much for making the time to be on
gender stories today. I soenjoyed this conversation. And
your listeners. I hope youenjoyed this conversation about
picking this up and queernessand magic, which I don't think
we've had quite this in this waybefore. So thank you, Enfys, for
coming on gender stories, andmaybe to the next episode that

(01:07:11):
we'll do together.

That'd be wonderful. It's been an honor
Alex, thank you so much,listeners.

Until next time, I hope you find your own way to
feel expansive and your ownrites of passage for whatever
you want to mark in your ownlife.

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