November 13, 2023 • 43 mins
PJ Desrochers is a visual artist who explores their nonbinary humanness through art. PJ creates images, builds sculptural installations and immersive experiences of their
gender and a life well-lived. Their media originates with photographic self portraits printed on transparency film. PJ then builds creations by layering the transparent images and connecting them quite often using fingerprinted scotch tape and fishing line to found objects. These Photographic Assemblages can often be found installed within the natural beauty of central Vermont where they photograph and film these beloved creations to become gallery accessible and presented for your viewing pleasure.
Project website: https://www.11toseeandbeseen11.com/
Kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/toseeandbeseen/to-see-and-be-seen-nonbinary-tarot
PJ Derochers website: http://www.pjdesrochersart.com/
Instagram: GenderStories
Hosted by Alex Iantaffi
Music by Maxwell von Raven
Gender Stories logo by Lior Effinger-Weintraub
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alex Iantaffi (00:05):
Hello and welcome to another episode of gender
stories I know I'm always veryexcited about every guest but
I'm Extra extra excited when arepeople that I know and love and
so today I am Extra extraexcited because I got to
interview PJ Desrochers. PJ isa visual artist who explores
their non binary humaniststhrough art, PJ creates images
(00:29):
built sculptural installations,and immersive experiences of
their gender and a life welllived. Their media originates
with photographic self portraitsprinted on transparency film, PJ
then builds creations bylayering the transparent images,
and connecting them quite oftenusing fingerprinted scotch tape,
and fishing line to foundobjects. This photographic
(00:52):
assemblages can often be foundinstalled within the natural
beauty of Central Vermont, wherethe Photograph and film this
beloved creations to becomegallery accessible and
precepted, for your viewingpleasure MPJ as exhibited all
over Vermont and beyond Vermont.
And now they have this wonderfulproject that's very exciting to
see in in which is what we'regonna be talking about today. So
(01:15):
welcome PJ to gender stories.
Thank you so much for making thetime to be talking with me
today. Yeah, absolutely.
PJ Desrochers (01:24):
Thank you so much for having me, Alex, I really
appreciate it. And admirer ofyou and the show. And so it's
just this really lovely,
Alex Iantaffi (01:34):
thank you. It's so lovely to have you here and
like fellow therapist, and thenin the artist at the pleasure of
a little preview of your tarotdeck. And I'm so so excited. So
let's start there, you have theKickstarter that's about to
launch, and which will by thetime this episode releases next
(01:55):
week, so yes, tell the listenersabout what you're doing and what
this Kickstarter is about.
PJ Desrochers (02:02):
So I am launching a tarot deck called To See and
Be Seen Nonbinary tarot deck,you can if you're watching on
YouTube, you can see it kind ofhanging out behind me in the
background. Those are kind ofphotos of the images of the
cards. But if you're just alistener, there's a grid of
(02:27):
colorful conceptual images thatare behind me that looks kind of
like a quilt. And those are theimages that will be on the To
See and Be Seen Nonbinary tarotdeck that launches on
Kickstarter, this Saturday,November 11, at 1111. Eastern
Standard Time, and we'll be openand up for 22 days for folks to
(02:54):
contribute. So if you want adeck, this is the way to do it,
is to contribute and all of thereward levels, except for one,
I'll have a deck as part of it.
So that is the hope to geteveryone that wants a deck and
is able to contribute and thenhopefully beyond there we can,
we can push and get decks tofolks that can't meet that
(03:18):
level. So
Alex Iantaffi (03:22):
I love that. And if there are any folks who are
listening, or like, oh, I wouldlove to get that for my non
binary friend or family memberor neighbor. This is a great
opportunity, you know, get morethan one that got a deck for you
get a deck for a friend maybecannot afford to support the
Kickstarter right now. I loveit. Why? And non binary terror
(03:43):
attacks? There are lots ofteridax out there, right? And
there are some, you know, so whydid you decide to make your own?
I'm so curious about that.
Well, I have been a tarot readerfor 30 years. And I as just a
(04:04):
visual artist and an extrovertedperson and just a person that
needs like external imagery tobe able to understand like,
that's how I came to kind ofunderstand and know my inner
interior and have it feel likeheld and validated more so than
other places in my life. Sorelationships do that. Yes, but
(04:27):
this really taro always helpedme develop a really deep
relationship and knowing andunderstanding of myself. So
that's kind of the taro has justbeen a huge gift and tool
development tool for me the past30 years and then when I came
(04:51):
out is non binary like later inlife, so I'm 53 now I was 48
when I came out, I I found likeIf my ducks to not resonate
quite as well, becauseoftentimes tarot decks are
pretty binary in nature. And Iwould have some dysphoric
responses to my readings or needto do a lot of mental work in
(05:15):
the readings to have themresonate in the same way. So I
felt a little adrift in myspiritual tool, or the way that
I connected with myself. Andthat's what got me thinking
about making a deck. That was, Iguess, de gendered, so to speak,
(05:36):
or gender expansive, which isreally more how I like to look
at it is that it just, it's, itjust expands. And so that's,
that's sort of what got thatidea rolling, for me the
marrying of those two of like,this tool that I loved, and then
there being sort of a mismatchwith it. So I made it for
(05:58):
myself, essentially. And now I'mhoping that it will be for other
people as well that might feelsimilarly to me, or wanting to
explore their gender in a waythat it doesn't have to land in
such a binary category or spaceand time with within a spiritual
(06:19):
practice or practice of carethat tarot is.
I love that. And I love howyou're talking about Taro. Both
as a spiritual practice, butalso like a relational practice
to self that's very much myrelationship with Tarot as well.
And I allow it helps us yes,maybe connect to something
(06:42):
greater than us if that's ourbelief system. But for me, it is
really about that deeprelationship. And so out those
binaries and more traditionaldecks can really get in the way
of us connecting, I'm very muchresonated with that reasoning.
And not only did you make yourtarot deck, but you bought you
(07:02):
brought your beautiful art tomake in this deck. And so you
want to tell us a little bit howyou organized like maybe the
different suits of the deck orkind of, you know, is there
people imagery? Is it justnature? Like what what can
people act if they kind of getyour deck?
PJ Desrochers (07:23):
Um, let's see, well, people can expect, I
actually am the main characterof the deck, I am a self
portrait artist. And so I have ahuge gallery of images to choose
from. So all of the images thatI worked with are all my own
(07:46):
photography, and all of thesuits our bodies are come from
bodies of artwork that I hadcompleted, well, prior to even
making the deck. So there's away that I say, like, this deck
was ahead of me, kind of like alot of my art, like, a lot of my
(08:06):
art seems to be ahead of me, I'mlike making it that I'm like,
Oh, that makes sense, while I'mmaking it, like six months,
three years later. So you willsee me and see my face, but it
kind of through the years sothere's really different
physical and body and face. It'sand a lot of it's very abstract.
(08:32):
So I am conceptual artists. So Ioften will make pieces that
might have just my hand on itlayered in with other objects
from nature, or Windows ormirrors or so everything's very
(08:52):
layered. So every card probablyhas five different photographic
images in it layered. There areonly two in the deck that are
actually single images. Buteverything else of the 78 card
deck is layered. So, what youcan expect to see as far as the
(09:17):
gender expansiveness as I tooksome of the Major Arcana cards
which I call archetype hullsbecause again, Alex I'm very
similar to you in that this Tarois is a relational deck I'm a
relational therapist. And so mylens for how this decks work is
(09:41):
about a relationship withyourself and about really
trusting yourself or kind oftrusting others hence like to
see and be seen. You know, sothe scene of yourself and what
you want reflected back to youso I really see taro as a
reflective tool. I'm getting alittle off track. Okay, I'm like
(10:12):
trying to track your questionand then I'm like, Oh, there I
go.'m happy to be me. All right,that's okay. So as far as the,
the archetypal roles, there are22 of those and about half of
(10:35):
them, I, the ones that I felt,caused me dysphoria, or I felt
were overtly gendered, say likehigh priestess, is in my deck is
called witness. So HighPriestess is really like a deep
scene and a deep knowing and ourdeep intuition and so witness to
(10:56):
me is, is that it comprises thatlike you're witnessing something
in yourself or something inothers that's greater than you
that you're also a part of. Andso I tried to find names that I
felt captured the essence of themajor arcana into more of an
(11:19):
archetypal mode. So like, Alex,you have the discernment tattoo.
And there's a discernment card.
Yes, card number 20, which istypically the judgment card in a
major arcana. And I likediscernment as a way of making
(11:41):
choice. And so judgment is justto me a little heavier handed.
And discernment almost puts thatchoice in your hand like that
discernment is it can be makingit really difficult choice. But
there's something about it wherejudgment feels like it's coming
from above you. And we'velearned that feels like it just
(12:03):
feels more more non binary to mea little more, like in choice a
little more, both. And so thoseare ways that I kind of infused
some therapeutic concepts intothe deck as well. So not only
are there sort of genderexpansive concepts, but they're
(12:25):
I mean, this is, this debt comesout of my language, which is a
relational, therapeutic languagethat I have used not only in
connection with clients, butjust in connection with myself
through the years, so
Alex Iantaffi (12:42):
yeah, that's all I feel like the whether people
are non binary or not, when theyuse your deck, they're really
going to be invited intoexpanding their understanding of
those cards of those majorarcana or this minor arcana. And
I think that that's a beautifulgift to anybody, no matter what
their gender, I think two, andbeyond those binaries are
(13:05):
beautiful. And I love the titleof your project to see in MVC.
And I think that's somethingthat a lot of people struggle
with, right, a lot of usstruggle to truly see others,
you know, without all thebaggage and lenses have our own
identity and experiences, and tofeel seen by others, right,
without all of that kind ofcloud of trans identities and
(13:28):
experiences. And so I'm curiousabout where where that name came
from, even, like, how did youfind the name of to see and be
seen?
PJ Desrochers (13:38):
Well, I think, again, it's, it's, it starts
with with me, and just a deepyearning and desire to see and
to understand and to be seen andto be understood by others. And
I felt really compelled to tryto make a product or make
(13:59):
something that we can havebefore us that can offer that to
us on a daily basis. Andparticularly as like a trans non
binary human, don't often readhow I'm seeing. And so when I
pull a card, I'm always seen.
And it's not like, oh, maybeI'll be seen today, maybe I
(14:25):
won't be it's like, every day,and being a person that really
values reflection as a way tounderstand myself. That also is
is the nature of the deck likejust that value that I have and
that just I don't know if it's avalue, but it's a real like,
knowing deep knowing of myselfand what I need and I I make the
(14:49):
assumption that I'm not the onlyone.
Alex Iantaffi (14:55):
I think that's a very solid assumption to make
you It's such a deeply humanneed to, to see and be seen and
to feel mirrored by somethingthat often is really missing for
many of us kind of trans, or nonbinary, or gender expansive
folks to kind of see ourselvesand be seen for who we truly are
(15:18):
out in the world can be reallychallenging. I, that we're
talking about your deck, and Iwonder what it would? Yeah,
whether you would feel likeroots, please added that. Thank
you. I say it out loud, thenit's easier for them. So we're
talking about your beautifuldeck. And I wonder if we could
(15:40):
pull a card from your deck. Ofcourse, when, like listening and
not watching on YouTube, you'lldescribe the card and what the
color card about maybe wheneveran intention and pulling this
card.
PJ Desrochers (15:55):
Sure. What do you think
Alex Iantaffi (15:57):
what's maybe yeah, maybe if listeners are
struggling to feel seen or seeothers, especially around
gender, let's see what guidancemaybe the deck might have for
folks who are struggling to feelseen or to see others for who
they are.
PJ Desrochers (16:17):
That sounds really good. So I'm going to
just hold up the deck here. Sothis actually, this is the deck
that came from the printer, thisis the first paper copy that
I've had, I've been working withthe transparent copy for the
past two years. And so this ismy first like, copy, copy. So
(16:38):
this is the back of the deck.
It's nice and nice and thick. SoI'm just gonna give it some
shuffles. And we're gonna thinkabout our intention. And when I
pull this card, and when we pullthis card, Alex actually ask you
to kind of kind of go through aseries of questions, which are
(17:01):
sort of how I like the stick towork. But what is it that what
is it that you feel in responseto the image? What is it that
you're thinking? Is thereanything that you're noticing or
things that you know alreadyabout this car? And then we'll
kind of read it from that placelike for the collective for the
(17:21):
listeners? We love it.
Questions? Do you have anyshuffle amount that you like,
or?
Alex Iantaffi (17:32):
Oh, I like cutting the deck into three and
then reassembling it.
Okay. I'm doing cutting inthree. Oop. All right, top card.
Let's do it.
PJ Desrochers (17:53):
All right. Oh, here we have the nine of golden
portals. Golden portals is thesuit of fire the elemental suit
of fire suit of the soul orspirit. You on this card? For
listeners, you'll see ninelayered golden circles that look
(18:19):
kind of lit with light.
Underneath a bear tree escapes.
So there are thin tree limbsthat kind of layer up and over
these. These this nine here.
Alex Iantaffi (18:38):
So beautiful. I love it. Thank you. Oh, that is
such a beautiful card. Let'stalk about it.
PJ Desrochers (18:49):
Yeah, what are your What are your thoughts or
your feels? Hmm?
Alex Iantaffi (18:55):
Well, I'm thinking about nine, right?
Because I'm out how for me whenwe get into like 8, 9, 10. It's
towards the end of some sort ofjourney, right? And about our
intention around if people arestruggling to see or feel seen
(19:16):
how that is an ongoing journey.
Right? And so we might be at theend of the journey, but we're
quite a way in. So and thatreally resonates with my
experience of sometimes when Ifelt like isolated or not having
enough closeness or intimacywith people I've had to ask
myself, How am I closing myselfoff to that connection to that
(19:38):
in right because to be seen,there's a vulnerability to it.
And so even those beautiful kindof, there's a warmth to the card
with all the golden light thatthere's the warmth. And I love
that it's a bear tree because Ilove bears. So I I don't know if
(19:58):
that's got anything to do withthe reading, but bears have a
lot of significance for me. Infor me, bears also represent
very much both protection andstrength in terms of community,
and the protection and strengththat comes from community. So
(20:22):
when I'm thinking about thecard, I'm also thinking about
the abundance of strength andprotection that we find in
community as trans or non binarygender expansive people, and not
just connection with like, maybewe're in a place where there's
nobody else who looks like us.
(20:44):
But there are gender blessedancestors and transistors and so
connection. Now just like in thecommunity of humans, but also
community of non human animals,Greenblatt's ancestors, I don't
know that's kind of where mymind went with that card. I
think. I think it opened someportals in my mind, apparently.
PJ Desrochers (21:07):
It certainly did.
So I heard you say kind ofinterconnect like the
interconnectivity that we allhave and how we talk about
choice like we're making, wemake a choice to sort of be seen
or not not be seen and thevulnerability in that when we
allow ourselves to, but the treebeing something that's
supportive, but also can be youknow, a little bit like
(21:33):
blocking, like how we can kindof hold ourselves back a little
bit too, you can see that in theimages are oh my god, something
over here.
Alex Iantaffi (21:46):
There's always something beeping in our lives,
I feel like it's true.
And I love I love yourconnection with the nine because
I definitely resonate with thenine in this card, myself has
such a number of completions andthings really come into a close
(22:11):
and what I picked up in thiscard, which I haven't really
seen before and so what'shappening for me with these
printed on this white paper isit's almost like a new deck to
me that I am seeing things Ihave never seen and this is my
art and I played I've beenworking with this card for two
(22:32):
years. So it's just interestingbut I was like It looks like
it's like burning through alittle bit. So green a bit like
collectively what we're settinga flame to and kind of clearing
out you know, using smoke theclear fire to clear or to light
(22:55):
up sort of parts of ourselveslike there's a letting go in
that and there's also a lightingup like you know, some being to
being on fire and letting thoseparts of ourselves be seen our
fiery partsI love that and I love what you
said about the fire and theclearing as well because I feel
(23:18):
like we are clearing a lot ofkind of systemic barriers and
oppressive systems in some waysand collectively and so that
that relationship between theindividual and the collective I
think feels part of that thoseweigh heavy on our spirits.
(23:38):
Yeah, and that that is so such abeautiful card. Yeah, I'm
thinking about the intentionthat I mentioned around you
know, people are struck fillingsseen or being seen and, and this
beautiful card and now there'slike this fire that piece is
(23:59):
very yeah, there's this formthis connection with about
interdependence. Yeah, anythingelse that it's coming through
for you from this card aroundthat
PJ Desrochers (24:15):
I was wondering if it's okay if I pulled out the
guide map because I wrote aguide map to go with this deck
and so I read what I had writtenin there just to see because
oftentimes, like with this deck,I really like folks to read and
like get their sense and connectand if there still feels like
(24:36):
there's more it could be good tobust into the guide map. So if
you're
Alex Iantaffi (24:44):
okay, that's what I taro for myself. It's like I
look at the cards and see whatit feels like but like to go to
the booklet to be like, well,but what else have I missed?
PJ Desrochers (24:55):
Yeah, and I just made the what comes with this
deck. It's It doesn't lookbrief. But every thing about
that connects, this really showshow the cards are interconnected
and interrelated with eachother. So Oh,
Alex Iantaffi (25:12):
that's beautiful.
Like this beautiful. cannot seeit. I'm very excited. I can't
wait to get my hands on one ofyour tarot decks for the
Kickstarter.
PJ Desrochers (25:23):
See. So with this guide map, you can open it up,
it opens up like kind of an oldschool map, as well as for
panels. And then on the insidethe top says to see in BC
nonbinary, tarot guide map, andthere's four columns, numbers,
(25:44):
archetype bowls, elementals, andrelational goals. And those are
the names of all the differentcards in the deck. So with this
card, we pulled the nine ofgolden portals, we're gonna look
up nine, like number nine, whichboth Alex and I said was
completion. And then with thegolden portal, so I'll go to the
(26:05):
Elementals. Because goldenportals is that one of the
elemental sign of fire, andvitality, and in traditional
Tarot is the one suit. And I'mgonna go down the column to this
number nine, and the words aretime touches time.
(26:33):
So with this map, I like togather a couple of the words
into like a little poem or alittle incantation of some sort.
So is there a way Alex for youthat either completion, or
vitality, or golden or soul ortime touches time works? A
(27:00):
statement that connects to theintention?
Alex Iantaffi (27:06):
I love that I'm thinking about it, because
there's so much in there. But Ithink the first thing that comes
to mind for me is our journey tosee and be seen is never fully
done. That time brings usvitality, and sometimes
(27:27):
completion. Yeah, that's what'scoming. For me.
PJ Desrochers (27:31):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think in those moments, when
time does touch time, there isthis brief moment of completion
of like, Oh, I get it. And thenwe continue on.
Alex Iantaffi (27:44):
Except, like, you know, I'm the computer, never
have completion, but there arethose moments are like, just
like this precious, almost likesnowglobe moments, I call them
where, ah, and then it's like,so ephemeral, that love it.
Yeah.
PJ Desrochers (28:00):
I think next was the intention really well. Oh,
Alex Iantaffi (28:05):
thank you. This is so fun to get to do a reading
with you and pull a card. AndI'm just really thinking about
what a wonderful tool Taro is,but also what a wonderful tool
art is. Right? And as well,being it, a therapist or an
artist, and yourself or tradeartist, and I hope you don't
(28:28):
mind me asking, but I'm curiousabout what role as your art,
especially your self portraitart had in your own gender
journey, if any, right becauseyou, you take portraits of
yourself and falls like that. Idon't know, for me, I think a
lot of selfies and partiallythat has a lot to do with like,
(28:49):
see myself as a trans and notjust as a trans person, but also
as a disabled person, as anaging person as a person moving
through space and time, like, soI'm just really curious about
the your art and how thatpotentially contributed to your
own gender journey.
PJ Desrochers (29:09):
It's, it's interesting, because it
contributed to everything. Imean, I think without my art, I
wouldn't have noticed or maybeseen as soon or understood that
part of myself. But like, every,like when I came out as queer,
(29:31):
it's like comes out as a whisperin me for some reason, and then
when it's out it's like reallyout. But um, so what happened is
I noticed in my selfportraiture, photography, which
I use in a real similar way asyou Alex, but initially when I
started to use it, I had beenrecently divorced and then out
(29:58):
of very challenging reallyrelationship and had just kind
of lost my sense of self and thephotography and self portraiture
particularly really helped me alot like taro see myself. And so
what happened is I was lookingback through my photographs or a
(30:21):
period of time, and I had onlytaken pictures of portions of my
body. And stead of either fullimages or front face images, I
just had like shoulder or feetor arms or like, really
fractured. So I took, I printedup all of those images, and I
(30:44):
put them all up on the wall tosort of assemble myself as a
body. And then each one of thoseimages, I printed onto
transparency, and this was myfirst use of transparency film
and my photography. And I builta sculpture that had these
(31:07):
images of these parts of my bodythat made a hole that moved, and
then installed that in nature.
But what I found out while I wasmaking that making those pixels,
I was just like, why, why aren'tyou taking images of yourself
(31:29):
like what's going on, likesomething had really changed.
And, and I do really think thatthere was a fracturing of what I
would call like womanhood, whatI would call like, how I saw or
helped my body, and like therewas sort of a fracturing and an
(31:50):
opening and reconfiguring ofmyself into non binary form. And
so through my art, I sort of sawthat before my eyes, and is, it
was really beautiful andpowerful process. But without
that reflection, like withoutthat practice, of the, the
(32:13):
selfie or the self portraiturecare that I was up to, I don't
think I would have seen what washappening and been able to hear
the Whisper. Because I do thinknon binary doesn't speak in the
(32:37):
same languages, binary genderdoes. And it just took, took me
that to under to understand thatfor myself, and to like, be able
to allow myself to shape shift,which is what it felt like I did
into you know, I don't know ifyou had this experience when you
(32:59):
come out, but when I was comingout people like oh, yeah, that
makes total sense about me.
Alex Iantaffi (33:14):
So that is that's, that is the, that's the
coming out story was coming outto myself, and having my art
show it show me the way.
I love that. And I mean, to beclear yourself. Forge rates are
art and so, so beautiful, youknow, compared selfies, but I
think there is this desire,right to like, see ourselves and
(33:40):
reflect ourselves through artand, and I think it's so
interesting, because I don'tknow if you've had this
experience, but I definitely wastold I was bad at art. When I
was growing up a lot of peoplewho as adults don't engage with
creating or making thingsbecause the thing art is just
for like, accomplished artists,right? We studied it. And yeah,
(34:01):
and I wonder if you have everhad any hesitation or shyness
around owning also your artistidentity not just your non
binary identity, but you youknow, really moving into that
artist identity for yourself.
PJ Desrochers (34:20):
Yeah, it's been a it's been a struggle. It's, it's
my favorite place. I definitely,yeah, that art is is where I
want to be and making art iswhere I want to be. And it's
definitely been a journey to gethere. I've been as fortunate in
(34:40):
that I grew up my mom is anartist. She's a watercolor
painter. And so we did our allthe time and creative stuff. So
I had a lot of confidence. But Iwasn't the kind of artist that
my mom was like I'm not arepresentational artist. And so
I just never thought that I wasan artist. And then I discovered
(35:05):
like that I'm really good withcollage and like image making
and imagery and photography. Ittook me a while to own that as
real for myself. And I thinkthat I'm just going to make a
guess here, but my, my tendencyto be a person that wants to fit
(35:30):
in as a way to survive, which Idon't need as much anymore. I
think, also, like, I think abouthow I made a choice to not to go
to regular college and not artschool. And I wonder like, Oh, I
wonder if I went to the ArtInstitute of Seattle? Like,
(35:51):
would I have made fashion like,it just makes me wonder, I just
wonder that. So, yeah, but I hadthis funny experience when I did
go to an artists retreat, andreally took a see in myself as
(36:12):
an artist, and was kind ofdoubting that. And there was a
person there who was like, youknow, like, you, like, take a
chair and like float chairs inthe water and like, take
pictures of it. Like, I don'tknow, what other kind of proof
you can beat. That you are, andI was like, oh, yeah, that's
(36:36):
right. So not, not the usual wayof like, looking at a chair. And
so that, that those kinds ofreflections really helped, like
people that sort of see andrecognize that me.
Alex Iantaffi (36:53):
And how that connects to what we've been
talking about all through theinterview, which is to see NBC
and right, because it's not justunder it's also so many
different aspects of ouridentities. elabo, you know, in
a way you like to see as anartist in that retreat, but you
also were reflected back byother artists who were like,
(37:13):
Hey, I see, I see you as anartist, right. And growing up,
your art is different from theart that's getting made around
you that might not feel aslarge, right. And so this really
comes back to just howfoundational to us as humans, it
is to see ourselves, be seen bythose around us that
(37:36):
interdependence we have withthose around us. That's so
beautiful. I feel like I couldtalk with you forever about this
topic, and your terror that gothrough all your cards, but I'm
going to be respectful of yourtime and not do that. So I'll
ask you the question that Ialways ask all of my guests at
the end of the interview, whichis, is there anything we have
(37:58):
not talked about that you werehoping we would cover for our
listeners? So anything that wehave not touched on yet? That
you want to make? Sure,
PJ Desrochers (38:07):
yes. I did want to make sure that everybody
knows the difference suits ofdebt because we didn't get to
talk about that. So the suitsinto To See and Be Seen
Nonbinary tarot deck are thoseare their I call them
Elementals. And so we alreadymet the suit of golden portals,
(38:29):
which is that the elemental suitof fire and our soul, like our
spirit of vitality, comesthrough. And then there's the
suit of ribbons. And ribbons isthe elemental suit of water. And
so that's the suit the suit allabout our fields and our
emotions. And like, I likeribbons for like how they roll
(38:54):
through. And so just to keep inmind, like each one of these
suits were individual bodies ofwork that I created
artistically. So I had a goldenPortal series, I had a ribbon
series. The next one would beWindows. And so Windows is the
elemental suit of air and itrepresents I call it brain
(39:18):
support, but it represents ourmind. And it's really based
windows are based on the conceptof Dan Siegel's, a window of
tolerance, which is one of myfavorite therapeutic concepts,
which is just getting right tothe heart and like holding
yourself in that heart of whereyou're making a change and
(39:43):
moving from one thought to thenext one place to next and that
just this place, that that kindof holds you see your brain can
catch up and burn a new neuralpathway. So I love the love that
one In dos suit for our minds,and then the final suit is
(40:03):
elemental suit of its chairs.
And that represents Earth, ourEarth, our groundedness. And
it's the embodied suit. And sowhen you think about a chair, or
sitting in a chair, kind of,sometimes we feel comfortable,
sometimes we don't, but we'retypically like at rest. And so I
(40:23):
like to think of that suit isthe suit where, where, like at
rest and present in our bodiesand what touches our bodies. And
yeah, if not also was then oneof my very favorite bodies of
artwork, I have the chairseries. And so all of the images
(40:43):
from those series are allembedded into these into this
deck. So it really is like aconglomeration of, of my work my
artwork through time, like inthese cards for everyone, which
makes me really happy.
Alex Iantaffi (41:04):
That's amazing. I also think that's the most
poetic and beautiful descriptionof the window of tolerance
concept I've ever heard ittherapists get Spoken like a
true artist.
PJ Desrochers (41:17):
And that means a lot to me coming from you, Alex,
thank you so much.
Alex Iantaffi (41:22):
I yeah, I am so excited about this deck. And I'm
so excited by your art. So ifpeople want to go on
Kickstarter, and make sure thatwithin those 22 days that the
Kickstarter is going to be openfor the get a DAC where should
they go? Should they Google ToSee and Be Seen Nonbinary tarot
deck in on the Kickstarter site,or Yes, I will, of course, the
(41:42):
link to the episode description.
But you know, in case peopledon't look at the episode
description, let's reach out to
PJ Desrochers (41:48):
To See and Be Seen Nonbinary tarot deck
through Kickstarter. Also, Ihave a landing page, which is
11, to see and be seeneleven.com. And so that gets you
connected. If you want to learnmore about my art, there's a
link there. If you wantInstagram, there's a link there,
Kickstarter has link. There's anewsletter that I'll be starting
(42:12):
up in the new year that you cansign up for there, if you want
for all the updates on productdevelopment and things I hope to
be doing in the future for tosee and be seen. So. Yeah, love
Alex Iantaffi (42:26):
it. Well, I'll make sure that all those links
are in the episode description.
So if you ask what PJ just said,Don acetate to go in the episode
description either to whicheverpodcast platform you're
listening on, or through theYouTube channel. If that's if
you're watching the episode, andmake sure you click that link,
go support the Kickstarter,follow PJ's beautiful work on
(42:50):
Instagram. And, yeah, I am soexcited about this deck being
out in the world. Anything elseyou want to share with our
listeners before we say goodbye?
PJ Desrochers (43:04):
Just so much gratitude. And thanks for Alex
for hosting and group forediting. And for all of you who
are listening. I just reallyappreciate your care and your
support and being able to talkabout what I love. It's such a
gift. So thank you so much. Ijust love to talk about this
(43:29):
stuff. So it's exciting.
Alex Iantaffi (43:31):
It is exciting.
It's been such a pleasure totalk with you PJ. Thank you so
much for making the time to talkbeautiful non binary deck To See
and Be Seen Nonbinary tarot deckand dear gender stories
listeners until next time, Ihope that you all feel reflected
your beautiful selves reflectedback at you from those around
(43:54):
you. Until next time. Bye
Hello and welcome to another episode of gender
stories I know I'm always veryexcited about every guest but
I'm Extra extra excited when arepeople that I know and love and
so today I am Extra extraexcited because I got to
interview PJ Desrochers. PJ isa visual artist who explores
their non binary humaniststhrough art, PJ creates images
(00:29):
built sculptural installations,and immersive experiences of
their gender and a life welllived. Their media originates
with photographic self portraitsprinted on transparency film, PJ
then builds creations bylayering the transparent images,
and connecting them quite oftenusing fingerprinted scotch tape,
and fishing line to foundobjects. This photographic
(00:52):
assemblages can often be foundinstalled within the natural
beauty of Central Vermont, wherethe Photograph and film this
beloved creations to becomegallery accessible and
precepted, for your viewingpleasure MPJ as exhibited all
over Vermont and beyond Vermont.
And now they have this wonderfulproject that's very exciting to
see in in which is what we'regonna be talking about today. So
(01:15):
welcome PJ to gender stories.
Thank you so much for making thetime to be talking with me
today. Yeah, absolutely.
PJ Desrochers (01:24):
Thank you so much for having me, Alex, I really
appreciate it. And admirer ofyou and the show. And so it's
just this really lovely,
Alex Iantaffi (01:34):
thank you. It's so lovely to have you here and
like fellow therapist, and thenin the artist at the pleasure of
a little preview of your tarotdeck. And I'm so so excited. So
let's start there, you have theKickstarter that's about to
launch, and which will by thetime this episode releases next
(01:55):
week, so yes, tell the listenersabout what you're doing and what
this Kickstarter is about.
PJ Desrochers (02:02):
So I am launching a tarot deck called To See and
Be Seen Nonbinary tarot deck,you can if you're watching on
YouTube, you can see it kind ofhanging out behind me in the
background. Those are kind ofphotos of the images of the
cards. But if you're just alistener, there's a grid of
(02:27):
colorful conceptual images thatare behind me that looks kind of
like a quilt. And those are theimages that will be on the To
See and Be Seen Nonbinary tarotdeck that launches on
Kickstarter, this Saturday,November 11, at 1111. Eastern
Standard Time, and we'll be openand up for 22 days for folks to
(02:54):
contribute. So if you want adeck, this is the way to do it,
is to contribute and all of thereward levels, except for one,
I'll have a deck as part of it.
So that is the hope to geteveryone that wants a deck and
is able to contribute and thenhopefully beyond there we can,
we can push and get decks tofolks that can't meet that
(03:18):
level. So
Alex Iantaffi (03:22):
I love that. And if there are any folks who are
listening, or like, oh, I wouldlove to get that for my non
binary friend or family memberor neighbor. This is a great
opportunity, you know, get morethan one that got a deck for you
get a deck for a friend maybecannot afford to support the
Kickstarter right now. I loveit. Why? And non binary terror
(03:43):
attacks? There are lots ofteridax out there, right? And
there are some, you know, so whydid you decide to make your own?
I'm so curious about that.
Well, I have been a tarot readerfor 30 years. And I as just a
(04:04):
visual artist and an extrovertedperson and just a person that
needs like external imagery tobe able to understand like,
that's how I came to kind ofunderstand and know my inner
interior and have it feel likeheld and validated more so than
other places in my life. Sorelationships do that. Yes, but
(04:27):
this really taro always helpedme develop a really deep
relationship and knowing andunderstanding of myself. So
that's kind of the taro has justbeen a huge gift and tool
development tool for me the past30 years and then when I came
(04:51):
out is non binary like later inlife, so I'm 53 now I was 48
when I came out, I I found likeIf my ducks to not resonate
quite as well, becauseoftentimes tarot decks are
pretty binary in nature. And Iwould have some dysphoric
responses to my readings or needto do a lot of mental work in
(05:15):
the readings to have themresonate in the same way. So I
felt a little adrift in myspiritual tool, or the way that
I connected with myself. Andthat's what got me thinking
about making a deck. That was, Iguess, de gendered, so to speak,
(05:36):
or gender expansive, which isreally more how I like to look
at it is that it just, it's, itjust expands. And so that's,
that's sort of what got thatidea rolling, for me the
marrying of those two of like,this tool that I loved, and then
there being sort of a mismatchwith it. So I made it for
(05:58):
myself, essentially. And now I'mhoping that it will be for other
people as well that might feelsimilarly to me, or wanting to
explore their gender in a waythat it doesn't have to land in
such a binary category or spaceand time with within a spiritual
(06:19):
practice or practice of carethat tarot is.
I love that. And I love howyou're talking about Taro. Both
as a spiritual practice, butalso like a relational practice
to self that's very much myrelationship with Tarot as well.
And I allow it helps us yes,maybe connect to something
(06:42):
greater than us if that's ourbelief system. But for me, it is
really about that deeprelationship. And so out those
binaries and more traditionaldecks can really get in the way
of us connecting, I'm very muchresonated with that reasoning.
And not only did you make yourtarot deck, but you bought you
(07:02):
brought your beautiful art tomake in this deck. And so you
want to tell us a little bit howyou organized like maybe the
different suits of the deck orkind of, you know, is there
people imagery? Is it justnature? Like what what can
people act if they kind of getyour deck?
PJ Desrochers (07:23):
Um, let's see, well, people can expect, I
actually am the main characterof the deck, I am a self
portrait artist. And so I have ahuge gallery of images to choose
from. So all of the images thatI worked with are all my own
(07:46):
photography, and all of thesuits our bodies are come from
bodies of artwork that I hadcompleted, well, prior to even
making the deck. So there's away that I say, like, this deck
was ahead of me, kind of like alot of my art, like, a lot of my
(08:06):
art seems to be ahead of me, I'mlike making it that I'm like,
Oh, that makes sense, while I'mmaking it, like six months,
three years later. So you willsee me and see my face, but it
kind of through the years sothere's really different
physical and body and face. It'sand a lot of it's very abstract.
(08:32):
So I am conceptual artists. So Ioften will make pieces that
might have just my hand on itlayered in with other objects
from nature, or Windows ormirrors or so everything's very
(08:52):
layered. So every card probablyhas five different photographic
images in it layered. There areonly two in the deck that are
actually single images. Buteverything else of the 78 card
deck is layered. So, what youcan expect to see as far as the
(09:17):
gender expansiveness as I tooksome of the Major Arcana cards
which I call archetype hullsbecause again, Alex I'm very
similar to you in that this Tarois is a relational deck I'm a
relational therapist. And so mylens for how this decks work is
(09:41):
about a relationship withyourself and about really
trusting yourself or kind oftrusting others hence like to
see and be seen. You know, sothe scene of yourself and what
you want reflected back to youso I really see taro as a
reflective tool. I'm getting alittle off track. Okay, I'm like
(10:12):
trying to track your questionand then I'm like, Oh, there I
go.'m happy to be me. All right,that's okay. So as far as the,
the archetypal roles, there are22 of those and about half of
(10:35):
them, I, the ones that I felt,caused me dysphoria, or I felt
were overtly gendered, say likehigh priestess, is in my deck is
called witness. So HighPriestess is really like a deep
scene and a deep knowing and ourdeep intuition and so witness to
(10:56):
me is, is that it comprises thatlike you're witnessing something
in yourself or something inothers that's greater than you
that you're also a part of. Andso I tried to find names that I
felt captured the essence of themajor arcana into more of an
(11:19):
archetypal mode. So like, Alex,you have the discernment tattoo.
And there's a discernment card.
Yes, card number 20, which istypically the judgment card in a
major arcana. And I likediscernment as a way of making
(11:41):
choice. And so judgment is justto me a little heavier handed.
And discernment almost puts thatchoice in your hand like that
discernment is it can be makingit really difficult choice. But
there's something about it wherejudgment feels like it's coming
from above you. And we'velearned that feels like it just
(12:03):
feels more more non binary to mea little more, like in choice a
little more, both. And so thoseare ways that I kind of infused
some therapeutic concepts intothe deck as well. So not only
are there sort of genderexpansive concepts, but they're
(12:25):
I mean, this is, this debt comesout of my language, which is a
relational, therapeutic languagethat I have used not only in
connection with clients, butjust in connection with myself
through the years, so
Alex Iantaffi (12:42):
yeah, that's all I feel like the whether people
are non binary or not, when theyuse your deck, they're really
going to be invited intoexpanding their understanding of
those cards of those majorarcana or this minor arcana. And
I think that that's a beautifulgift to anybody, no matter what
their gender, I think two, andbeyond those binaries are
(13:05):
beautiful. And I love the titleof your project to see in MVC.
And I think that's somethingthat a lot of people struggle
with, right, a lot of usstruggle to truly see others,
you know, without all thebaggage and lenses have our own
identity and experiences, and tofeel seen by others, right,
without all of that kind ofcloud of trans identities and
(13:28):
experiences. And so I'm curiousabout where where that name came
from, even, like, how did youfind the name of to see and be
seen?
PJ Desrochers (13:38):
Well, I think, again, it's, it's, it starts
with with me, and just a deepyearning and desire to see and
to understand and to be seen andto be understood by others. And
I felt really compelled to tryto make a product or make
(13:59):
something that we can havebefore us that can offer that to
us on a daily basis. Andparticularly as like a trans non
binary human, don't often readhow I'm seeing. And so when I
pull a card, I'm always seen.
And it's not like, oh, maybeI'll be seen today, maybe I
(14:25):
won't be it's like, every day,and being a person that really
values reflection as a way tounderstand myself. That also is
is the nature of the deck likejust that value that I have and
that just I don't know if it's avalue, but it's a real like,
knowing deep knowing of myselfand what I need and I I make the
(14:49):
assumption that I'm not the onlyone.
Alex Iantaffi (14:55):
I think that's a very solid assumption to make
you It's such a deeply humanneed to, to see and be seen and
to feel mirrored by somethingthat often is really missing for
many of us kind of trans, or nonbinary, or gender expansive
folks to kind of see ourselvesand be seen for who we truly are
(15:18):
out in the world can be reallychallenging. I, that we're
talking about your deck, and Iwonder what it would? Yeah,
whether you would feel likeroots, please added that. Thank
you. I say it out loud, thenit's easier for them. So we're
talking about your beautifuldeck. And I wonder if we could
(15:40):
pull a card from your deck. Ofcourse, when, like listening and
not watching on YouTube, you'lldescribe the card and what the
color card about maybe wheneveran intention and pulling this
card.
PJ Desrochers (15:55):
Sure. What do you think
Alex Iantaffi (15:57):
what's maybe yeah, maybe if listeners are
struggling to feel seen or seeothers, especially around
gender, let's see what guidancemaybe the deck might have for
folks who are struggling to feelseen or to see others for who
they are.
PJ Desrochers (16:17):
That sounds really good. So I'm going to
just hold up the deck here. Sothis actually, this is the deck
that came from the printer, thisis the first paper copy that
I've had, I've been working withthe transparent copy for the
past two years. And so this ismy first like, copy, copy. So
(16:38):
this is the back of the deck.
It's nice and nice and thick. SoI'm just gonna give it some
shuffles. And we're gonna thinkabout our intention. And when I
pull this card, and when we pullthis card, Alex actually ask you
to kind of kind of go through aseries of questions, which are
(17:01):
sort of how I like the stick towork. But what is it that what
is it that you feel in responseto the image? What is it that
you're thinking? Is thereanything that you're noticing or
things that you know alreadyabout this car? And then we'll
kind of read it from that placelike for the collective for the
(17:21):
listeners? We love it.
Questions? Do you have anyshuffle amount that you like,
or?
Alex Iantaffi (17:32):
Oh, I like cutting the deck into three and
then reassembling it.
Okay. I'm doing cutting inthree. Oop. All right, top card.
Let's do it.
PJ Desrochers (17:53):
All right. Oh, here we have the nine of golden
portals. Golden portals is thesuit of fire the elemental suit
of fire suit of the soul orspirit. You on this card? For
listeners, you'll see ninelayered golden circles that look
(18:19):
kind of lit with light.
Underneath a bear tree escapes.
So there are thin tree limbsthat kind of layer up and over
these. These this nine here.
Alex Iantaffi (18:38):
So beautiful. I love it. Thank you. Oh, that is
such a beautiful card. Let'stalk about it.
PJ Desrochers (18:49):
Yeah, what are your What are your thoughts or
your feels? Hmm?
Alex Iantaffi (18:55):
Well, I'm thinking about nine, right?
Because I'm out how for me whenwe get into like 8, 9, 10. It's
towards the end of some sort ofjourney, right? And about our
intention around if people arestruggling to see or feel seen
(19:16):
how that is an ongoing journey.
Right? And so we might be at theend of the journey, but we're
quite a way in. So and thatreally resonates with my
experience of sometimes when Ifelt like isolated or not having
enough closeness or intimacywith people I've had to ask
myself, How am I closing myselfoff to that connection to that
(19:38):
in right because to be seen,there's a vulnerability to it.
And so even those beautiful kindof, there's a warmth to the card
with all the golden light thatthere's the warmth. And I love
that it's a bear tree because Ilove bears. So I I don't know if
(19:58):
that's got anything to do withthe reading, but bears have a
lot of significance for me. Infor me, bears also represent
very much both protection andstrength in terms of community,
and the protection and strengththat comes from community. So
(20:22):
when I'm thinking about thecard, I'm also thinking about
the abundance of strength andprotection that we find in
community as trans or non binarygender expansive people, and not
just connection with like, maybewe're in a place where there's
nobody else who looks like us.
(20:44):
But there are gender blessedancestors and transistors and so
connection. Now just like in thecommunity of humans, but also
community of non human animals,Greenblatt's ancestors, I don't
know that's kind of where mymind went with that card. I
think. I think it opened someportals in my mind, apparently.
PJ Desrochers (21:07):
It certainly did.
So I heard you say kind ofinterconnect like the
interconnectivity that we allhave and how we talk about
choice like we're making, wemake a choice to sort of be seen
or not not be seen and thevulnerability in that when we
allow ourselves to, but the treebeing something that's
supportive, but also can be youknow, a little bit like
(21:33):
blocking, like how we can kindof hold ourselves back a little
bit too, you can see that in theimages are oh my god, something
over here.
Alex Iantaffi (21:46):
There's always something beeping in our lives,
I feel like it's true.
And I love I love yourconnection with the nine because
I definitely resonate with thenine in this card, myself has
such a number of completions andthings really come into a close
(22:11):
and what I picked up in thiscard, which I haven't really
seen before and so what'shappening for me with these
printed on this white paper isit's almost like a new deck to
me that I am seeing things Ihave never seen and this is my
art and I played I've beenworking with this card for two
(22:32):
years. So it's just interestingbut I was like It looks like
it's like burning through alittle bit. So green a bit like
collectively what we're settinga flame to and kind of clearing
out you know, using smoke theclear fire to clear or to light
(22:55):
up sort of parts of ourselveslike there's a letting go in
that and there's also a lightingup like you know, some being to
being on fire and letting thoseparts of ourselves be seen our
fiery partsI love that and I love what you
said about the fire and theclearing as well because I feel
(23:18):
like we are clearing a lot ofkind of systemic barriers and
oppressive systems in some waysand collectively and so that
that relationship between theindividual and the collective I
think feels part of that thoseweigh heavy on our spirits.
(23:38):
Yeah, and that that is so such abeautiful card. Yeah, I'm
thinking about the intentionthat I mentioned around you
know, people are struck fillingsseen or being seen and, and this
beautiful card and now there'slike this fire that piece is
(23:59):
very yeah, there's this formthis connection with about
interdependence. Yeah, anythingelse that it's coming through
for you from this card aroundthat
PJ Desrochers (24:15):
I was wondering if it's okay if I pulled out the
guide map because I wrote aguide map to go with this deck
and so I read what I had writtenin there just to see because
oftentimes, like with this deck,I really like folks to read and
like get their sense and connectand if there still feels like
(24:36):
there's more it could be good tobust into the guide map. So if
you're
Alex Iantaffi (24:44):
okay, that's what I taro for myself. It's like I
look at the cards and see whatit feels like but like to go to
the booklet to be like, well,but what else have I missed?
PJ Desrochers (24:55):
Yeah, and I just made the what comes with this
deck. It's It doesn't lookbrief. But every thing about
that connects, this really showshow the cards are interconnected
and interrelated with eachother. So Oh,
Alex Iantaffi (25:12):
that's beautiful.
Like this beautiful. cannot seeit. I'm very excited. I can't
wait to get my hands on one ofyour tarot decks for the
Kickstarter.
PJ Desrochers (25:23):
See. So with this guide map, you can open it up,
it opens up like kind of an oldschool map, as well as for
panels. And then on the insidethe top says to see in BC
nonbinary, tarot guide map, andthere's four columns, numbers,
(25:44):
archetype bowls, elementals, andrelational goals. And those are
the names of all the differentcards in the deck. So with this
card, we pulled the nine ofgolden portals, we're gonna look
up nine, like number nine, whichboth Alex and I said was
completion. And then with thegolden portal, so I'll go to the
(26:05):
Elementals. Because goldenportals is that one of the
elemental sign of fire, andvitality, and in traditional
Tarot is the one suit. And I'mgonna go down the column to this
number nine, and the words aretime touches time.
(26:33):
So with this map, I like togather a couple of the words
into like a little poem or alittle incantation of some sort.
So is there a way Alex for youthat either completion, or
vitality, or golden or soul ortime touches time works? A
(27:00):
statement that connects to theintention?
Alex Iantaffi (27:06):
I love that I'm thinking about it, because
there's so much in there. But Ithink the first thing that comes
to mind for me is our journey tosee and be seen is never fully
done. That time brings usvitality, and sometimes
(27:27):
completion. Yeah, that's what'scoming. For me.
PJ Desrochers (27:31):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think in those moments, when
time does touch time, there isthis brief moment of completion
of like, Oh, I get it. And thenwe continue on.
Alex Iantaffi (27:44):
Except, like, you know, I'm the computer, never
have completion, but there arethose moments are like, just
like this precious, almost likesnowglobe moments, I call them
where, ah, and then it's like,so ephemeral, that love it.
Yeah.
PJ Desrochers (28:00):
I think next was the intention really well. Oh,
Alex Iantaffi (28:05):
thank you. This is so fun to get to do a reading
with you and pull a card. AndI'm just really thinking about
what a wonderful tool Taro is,but also what a wonderful tool
art is. Right? And as well,being it, a therapist or an
artist, and yourself or tradeartist, and I hope you don't
(28:28):
mind me asking, but I'm curiousabout what role as your art,
especially your self portraitart had in your own gender
journey, if any, right becauseyou, you take portraits of
yourself and falls like that. Idon't know, for me, I think a
lot of selfies and partiallythat has a lot to do with like,
(28:49):
see myself as a trans and notjust as a trans person, but also
as a disabled person, as anaging person as a person moving
through space and time, like, soI'm just really curious about
the your art and how thatpotentially contributed to your
own gender journey.
PJ Desrochers (29:09):
It's, it's interesting, because it
contributed to everything. Imean, I think without my art, I
wouldn't have noticed or maybeseen as soon or understood that
part of myself. But like, every,like when I came out as queer,
(29:31):
it's like comes out as a whisperin me for some reason, and then
when it's out it's like reallyout. But um, so what happened is
I noticed in my selfportraiture, photography, which
I use in a real similar way asyou Alex, but initially when I
started to use it, I had beenrecently divorced and then out
(29:58):
of very challenging reallyrelationship and had just kind
of lost my sense of self and thephotography and self portraiture
particularly really helped me alot like taro see myself. And so
what happened is I was lookingback through my photographs or a
(30:21):
period of time, and I had onlytaken pictures of portions of my
body. And stead of either fullimages or front face images, I
just had like shoulder or feetor arms or like, really
fractured. So I took, I printedup all of those images, and I
(30:44):
put them all up on the wall tosort of assemble myself as a
body. And then each one of thoseimages, I printed onto
transparency, and this was myfirst use of transparency film
and my photography. And I builta sculpture that had these
(31:07):
images of these parts of my bodythat made a hole that moved, and
then installed that in nature.
But what I found out while I wasmaking that making those pixels,
I was just like, why, why aren'tyou taking images of yourself
(31:29):
like what's going on, likesomething had really changed.
And, and I do really think thatthere was a fracturing of what I
would call like womanhood, whatI would call like, how I saw or
helped my body, and like therewas sort of a fracturing and an
(31:50):
opening and reconfiguring ofmyself into non binary form. And
so through my art, I sort of sawthat before my eyes, and is, it
was really beautiful andpowerful process. But without
that reflection, like withoutthat practice, of the, the
(32:13):
selfie or the self portraiturecare that I was up to, I don't
think I would have seen what washappening and been able to hear
the Whisper. Because I do thinknon binary doesn't speak in the
(32:37):
same languages, binary genderdoes. And it just took, took me
that to under to understand thatfor myself, and to like, be able
to allow myself to shape shift,which is what it felt like I did
into you know, I don't know ifyou had this experience when you
(32:59):
come out, but when I was comingout people like oh, yeah, that
makes total sense about me.
Alex Iantaffi (33:14):
So that is that's, that is the, that's the
coming out story was coming outto myself, and having my art
show it show me the way.
I love that. And I mean, to beclear yourself. Forge rates are
art and so, so beautiful, youknow, compared selfies, but I
think there is this desire,right to like, see ourselves and
(33:40):
reflect ourselves through artand, and I think it's so
interesting, because I don'tknow if you've had this
experience, but I definitely wastold I was bad at art. When I
was growing up a lot of peoplewho as adults don't engage with
creating or making thingsbecause the thing art is just
for like, accomplished artists,right? We studied it. And yeah,
(34:01):
and I wonder if you have everhad any hesitation or shyness
around owning also your artistidentity not just your non
binary identity, but you youknow, really moving into that
artist identity for yourself.
PJ Desrochers (34:20):
Yeah, it's been a it's been a struggle. It's, it's
my favorite place. I definitely,yeah, that art is is where I
want to be and making art iswhere I want to be. And it's
definitely been a journey to gethere. I've been as fortunate in
(34:40):
that I grew up my mom is anartist. She's a watercolor
painter. And so we did our allthe time and creative stuff. So
I had a lot of confidence. But Iwasn't the kind of artist that
my mom was like I'm not arepresentational artist. And so
I just never thought that I wasan artist. And then I discovered
(35:05):
like that I'm really good withcollage and like image making
and imagery and photography. Ittook me a while to own that as
real for myself. And I thinkthat I'm just going to make a
guess here, but my, my tendencyto be a person that wants to fit
(35:30):
in as a way to survive, which Idon't need as much anymore. I
think, also, like, I think abouthow I made a choice to not to go
to regular college and not artschool. And I wonder like, Oh, I
wonder if I went to the ArtInstitute of Seattle? Like,
(35:51):
would I have made fashion like,it just makes me wonder, I just
wonder that. So, yeah, but I hadthis funny experience when I did
go to an artists retreat, andreally took a see in myself as
(36:12):
an artist, and was kind ofdoubting that. And there was a
person there who was like, youknow, like, you, like, take a
chair and like float chairs inthe water and like, take
pictures of it. Like, I don'tknow, what other kind of proof
you can beat. That you are, andI was like, oh, yeah, that's
(36:36):
right. So not, not the usual wayof like, looking at a chair. And
so that, that those kinds ofreflections really helped, like
people that sort of see andrecognize that me.
Alex Iantaffi (36:53):
And how that connects to what we've been
talking about all through theinterview, which is to see NBC
and right, because it's not justunder it's also so many
different aspects of ouridentities. elabo, you know, in
a way you like to see as anartist in that retreat, but you
also were reflected back byother artists who were like,
(37:13):
Hey, I see, I see you as anartist, right. And growing up,
your art is different from theart that's getting made around
you that might not feel aslarge, right. And so this really
comes back to just howfoundational to us as humans, it
is to see ourselves, be seen bythose around us that
(37:36):
interdependence we have withthose around us. That's so
beautiful. I feel like I couldtalk with you forever about this
topic, and your terror that gothrough all your cards, but I'm
going to be respectful of yourtime and not do that. So I'll
ask you the question that Ialways ask all of my guests at
the end of the interview, whichis, is there anything we have
(37:58):
not talked about that you werehoping we would cover for our
listeners? So anything that wehave not touched on yet? That
you want to make? Sure,
PJ Desrochers (38:07):
yes. I did want to make sure that everybody
knows the difference suits ofdebt because we didn't get to
talk about that. So the suitsinto To See and Be Seen
Nonbinary tarot deck are thoseare their I call them
Elementals. And so we alreadymet the suit of golden portals,
(38:29):
which is that the elemental suitof fire and our soul, like our
spirit of vitality, comesthrough. And then there's the
suit of ribbons. And ribbons isthe elemental suit of water. And
so that's the suit the suit allabout our fields and our
emotions. And like, I likeribbons for like how they roll
(38:54):
through. And so just to keep inmind, like each one of these
suits were individual bodies ofwork that I created
artistically. So I had a goldenPortal series, I had a ribbon
series. The next one would beWindows. And so Windows is the
elemental suit of air and itrepresents I call it brain
(39:18):
support, but it represents ourmind. And it's really based
windows are based on the conceptof Dan Siegel's, a window of
tolerance, which is one of myfavorite therapeutic concepts,
which is just getting right tothe heart and like holding
yourself in that heart of whereyou're making a change and
(39:43):
moving from one thought to thenext one place to next and that
just this place, that that kindof holds you see your brain can
catch up and burn a new neuralpathway. So I love the love that
one In dos suit for our minds,and then the final suit is
(40:03):
elemental suit of its chairs.
And that represents Earth, ourEarth, our groundedness. And
it's the embodied suit. And sowhen you think about a chair, or
sitting in a chair, kind of,sometimes we feel comfortable,
sometimes we don't, but we'retypically like at rest. And so I
(40:23):
like to think of that suit isthe suit where, where, like at
rest and present in our bodiesand what touches our bodies. And
yeah, if not also was then oneof my very favorite bodies of
artwork, I have the chairseries. And so all of the images
(40:43):
from those series are allembedded into these into this
deck. So it really is like aconglomeration of, of my work my
artwork through time, like inthese cards for everyone, which
makes me really happy.
Alex Iantaffi (41:04):
That's amazing. I also think that's the most
poetic and beautiful descriptionof the window of tolerance
concept I've ever heard ittherapists get Spoken like a
true artist.
PJ Desrochers (41:17):
And that means a lot to me coming from you, Alex,
thank you so much.
Alex Iantaffi (41:22):
I yeah, I am so excited about this deck. And I'm
so excited by your art. So ifpeople want to go on
Kickstarter, and make sure thatwithin those 22 days that the
Kickstarter is going to be openfor the get a DAC where should
they go? Should they Google ToSee and Be Seen Nonbinary tarot
deck in on the Kickstarter site,or Yes, I will, of course, the
(41:42):
link to the episode description.
But you know, in case peopledon't look at the episode
description, let's reach out to
PJ Desrochers (41:48):
To See and Be Seen Nonbinary tarot deck
through Kickstarter. Also, Ihave a landing page, which is
11, to see and be seeneleven.com. And so that gets you
connected. If you want to learnmore about my art, there's a
link there. If you wantInstagram, there's a link there,
Kickstarter has link. There's anewsletter that I'll be starting
(42:12):
up in the new year that you cansign up for there, if you want
for all the updates on productdevelopment and things I hope to
be doing in the future for tosee and be seen. So. Yeah, love
Alex Iantaffi (42:26):
it. Well, I'll make sure that all those links
are in the episode description.
So if you ask what PJ just said,Don acetate to go in the episode
description either to whicheverpodcast platform you're
listening on, or through theYouTube channel. If that's if
you're watching the episode, andmake sure you click that link,
go support the Kickstarter,follow PJ's beautiful work on
(42:50):
Instagram. And, yeah, I am soexcited about this deck being
out in the world. Anything elseyou want to share with our
listeners before we say goodbye?
PJ Desrochers (43:04):
Just so much gratitude. And thanks for Alex
for hosting and group forediting. And for all of you who
are listening. I just reallyappreciate your care and your
support and being able to talkabout what I love. It's such a
gift. So thank you so much. Ijust love to talk about this
(43:29):
stuff. So it's exciting.
Alex Iantaffi (43:31):
It is exciting.
It's been such a pleasure totalk with you PJ. Thank you so
much for making the time to talkbeautiful non binary deck To See
and Be Seen Nonbinary tarot deckand dear gender stories
listeners until next time, Ihope that you all feel reflected
your beautiful selves reflectedback at you from those around
(43:54):
you. Until next time. Bye
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