April 8, 2024 • 42 mins
Marissa Stein is a Licensed Mental Health Counselor in the state of Washington (LMHC), an AASECT Certified Sex Therapist (CST), and a Nationally Certified Counselor (NCC). They are a non-binary, neuroqueer, kinky, and queer, Pagan, practitioner of magic, who lives with chronic pain and disability. Given these lived experiences, they have felt the impact of intersectional marginalization. As a white person, they do their best to be aware of their privilege and biases as part of dominant euro-centric descendant culture. Marissa endeavors to do their best to do anti-oppression work that is trauma aware as they believe every person deserves to enjoy their life free from shame and oppression. They strive for cultural humility, and to be an accomplice in the continued fight against white supremacy wherever they can.
https://www.taravenerysextherapy.com/
Instagram: GenderStories
Hosted by Alex Iantaffi
Music by Maxwell von Raven
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alex Iantaffi (00:01):
Hello and welcome to another episode of gender
stories. I know I'm alwaysexcited, but what can I say I
just get to meet the best peopleand I get to interview wonderful
people that I know from otherparts of my life. So today, I am
elated to introduce to youMarissa Stein, a licensed mental
(00:21):
health counselor in the state ofWashington, an AASECT therapist
and nationally certifiedcounselor. They are non binary
neuro queer, kinky and queerpagan practitioner magic, who
lives with chronic pain anddisability. Even the slipped
experiences that found theimpact of intersectional
marginalization. As a whiteperson Marissa does their best
(00:43):
to be aware of their ownprivilege and biases as part of
dominant Eurocentric descendantculture. They endeavor to do
their best to do anti oppressionwork that is trauma aware and
believe that every persondeserves to enjoy their life
free from shame and oppression.
They strive for culturalhumility, humility, and to be an
accomplice in the continuedfight against white supremacy,
wherever they can. Thank you somuch for making the time to talk
(01:07):
with me today. And you have apodcast that you're about to
launch soon. Right? Do you wantto add what the podcast is
called? Yes.
Marissa Stein (01:18):
So it's going to launch soon, I'm waiting on
getting kind of the branding andproduction details finalized.
It's called not fucking normal,because I'm not and I'm not
gonna. Yep.
Alex Iantaffi (01:30):
And I think that's a beautiful segue, that
we were actually going to talkabout a totally different
subject. I mean, we were goingto talk about, you know, body
image issues and disorderedeating and gender, you know,
because those are all thingsthat we're passionate about. But
when we got together beforerecording, we were like, the
world is heavy, we're exhausted,we're grieving. This is not
(01:53):
fucking normal. And yet again,you know, we're grieving the
death of trans youth NexBenedict, you know, and it's
just, this is so heavy on ourhearts, as well as all the other
ongoing things that are goingon, you know, witnessing
multiple genocides and warsright now. And so we decided to
actually just pivot and talkabout what is happening in our
(02:17):
trans, non binary, genderexpansive, two spirit community
and to talk about the impact ofthis ongoing systemic violence
and grief on our life astherapists in the lives of the
clients we serve were oftentrans non binary gender
expensive to spirit themselves.
Marissa Stein (02:36):
Yeah. And in on that note, I feel like it's
important to also just statethat the land that I'm on while
called Washington while calledSeattle is unceded, Duwamish,
Coast Salish Suquamish andStillaguamish. lands. And like,
(02:57):
you mentioned, this is notnormal and like, and yet it is,
yeah, it is normal. And itshouldn't be.
Alex Iantaffi (03:08):
And absolutely, and I think that because
colonization is so normalized,cisgenderism is so normalized.
Capitalism is so normalized.
We're all trying to go throughthe motions and other know about
you. But you know, and I live onDakota Anishinabek territories,
can we known as Minnesota, thatright now, everybody I'm talking
to, they're exhausted, theirheart is heavy, you know, they,
(03:31):
they're really just hanging onby a thread. But we're all like
pushing through, you know, as ifthings were normal, but they're
not. And so I'm wondering howthat is showing up in your own
life in the life of your clientsif you are finding similar
things where you are?
Marissa Stein (03:50):
Yeah, it's it's, I say interesting, a lot to not
judgment on stuff isinteresting. And I think there's
that you know, that curses, mayyou live in interesting times
and woof. And, you know, I, I goback to this, this idea of it's
(04:13):
not that right now is we'redealing with more suffering than
in, like past history. But thefact that we are so connected,
we're dealing with this the waythat we're getting our
information is so destabilizingto our nervous system, if that
(04:35):
makes sense. Yeah. That is notthat is not for humans. It's not
normal. And so what I am seeingis a combination of people who
have skin in the game. Not beingable to separate from what's
(04:55):
going on, right. And people whodon't, I mean it's the same old
story, people who don't have theoption of looking away to do
more caretaking of themselves,because that is also necessary.
But for those who are living inthat consistent state of this is
(05:15):
affecting my experience can'tand so I struggle with this, I
think about this a lot of withmy various identities, I can't
step away from identity, myidentity and my trans identity.
But I'm white. So I can likepotentially easily step away
(05:37):
when I need to, to take care ofmy nervous system, because I am
white. And I like acknowledgingthe fact that that is a
privilege to be able to do that.
I can't with being trans beingalso what is labeled as
neurodivergent, but I don'tbelieve in neurotypicality at
all. But that experience, Ican't step away from that. And
(05:59):
so this shows up in in my ownpersonal work and work with
other with clients who haveshared but also different
identities of recognizing thatwhen we need to be able to find
moments of safety, for ournervous system, to be able to be
able to keep going. And ifyou're dealing with that, that
(06:24):
continuous stress and emotionalvigilance, it's more of a
active, I have to find ways todo this and create a sense of
safety, right? And then ifyou're not with somebody to
living with the skin in the gamething, it is easier to be like,
Well, I'm just not going to lookat the news for a bit. Yeah,
(06:46):
right. And it's easier to just,I'm just gonna go take a walk,
and it's gonna be fine. But ifyou're in the state of like,
this is actively affecting myday to day, it's more a matter
of like, okay, I have to, I haveto consciously set it aside to
find some joy to find some senseof peace. So that's what I see
showing up a lot for me and forpeople that I'm working with.
(07:08):
But it's, it's it's justdifferent, different
experiences, depending on theidentities that are shared, and
the recognition that there's alot of privilege in the ability
to not have to, like put a lotof effort into trying to create
that sense of safety. Does that
Alex Iantaffi (07:30):
That makes so much sense to me, you know,
that makes sense?
because I'm even thinking about,you know, some of the things
I've seen about like, it's okayto rest, but rest is not
retreating. Right. And so whenI'm thinking about what you were
talking about, I'm thinkingabout, you know, like how, yeah,
similarly, I really have to makea call on, you know, the
(07:52):
different intersections aroundpower and privilege. And I need
to make that conscious effort toknow I need to rest I need to
sleep, I also need to move thisgrief in some way to show up,
right for my clients. Andresting is not retreating is not
switching off, right. And evenwhen I'm resting, I can
(08:12):
completely take this out of theequation, right. And I see it
even thinking about, you know,Nex and Nex's family and
community, they've really beenon my heart and witnessing on
social media, also a lot ofindigenous folks, for example,
saying, hey, Nex is likeindigenous belonging and
(08:34):
identity as a member of theChoctaw Nation is like being
erased, right? Or is beingweaponized. So kind of just lift
up, you know, trans issuessometimes by organizations who
haven't really put in the timeto build relationship with
indigenous communities and willstill come from a very
colonizing kind of perspectiveor benefit, you know, from the
(08:56):
ongoing colonial settlerproject. And so, that is
complex, because then I see my,you know, trans non binary
gender expensive to spirit,indigenous siblings, it's almost
like this, you know, doublewhammy of like, this is just
more indigenous folks, you know,suffering in schools that
(09:17):
already have a rendus legacy ofsystemic violence against
indigenous folks. And this isnot just the trans issue, this
is them going legacy ofcolonialism. This is the ongoing
legacy of our folks, you know,getting killed and murdered or
just worn down but like systemicviolence over and over. I don't
(09:39):
know if that's where you were atsome of the things you were
thinking about as well or
Marissa Stein (09:43):
Oh, yes. Yeah, definitely. And it's like I feel
like saying is like an on theirland on their land. Absolutely.
This is not European soil. No,this is not the descendant of
European soil. This is you know,and I am I zero I have zero
I mean they have two pronouns,they and he, and it sounds like
Indigenous American ties at allwhen it comes to ancestry. And,
(10:07):
you know, it's, there wassomething I was gonna say, but
of course, oh, yes, yeah.
Something that I that maybe someof those who are listening are
aware of but doing and I'm justgoing to comment on the fact
that AASECT itself, there's someit's not there's no perfection
there I have had my own thoughtsand feelings around whether or
(10:32):
not continuing to be part ofAASECT. But in going through the
AASECT process of becoming acertified sex therapist, we have
to go through the thing called aSAR, which is sexual attitude.
reassessment, is that theassessment? Yeah. And, you know,
(10:52):
it's, it was such a, I was luckyto take it from somebody who was
Black, and to not get it from aframing from a like a white
person. And one of the thingsthat I loved the one I get to
learn things that weren't partof my academic training, because
(11:12):
none of this is part of theacademic training overall, like
it's not a focus, you have tokind of like go out and find it
yourself. If it's important toyou, you find it you can was the
very idea that the termtransgender is is a Eurocentric
like colonizer term. And sopeople from all over the world
(11:37):
who are not part of this, thatculture, that's not a term that
isn't necessarily evenconnected, because it's a
colonizer term. So for transpeople who are labeling two
spirit folks, or genderexpansive, depending on or not
even gender expansive, just likeliving lives part of culture,
(12:01):
and then say, oh, but you'retrans. And I'm not saying like,
I honestly don't know that muchabout Nex's background, other
than the things that I have paidattention to, I do know that
they're part of the ChoctawNation, and I do know, you know,
preferred preferred, butpronouns name,
(12:30):
they did prefer he, that's whatI'm hearing because also even
with pronouns, I'm like, some ofus have more than one pronoun.
Yeah. So, I mean, all pronouns,you know, like, yeah, yes. If
you only have one, but if youhave more than one, you might
have reference. Yeah,well, that's, like, that's the
thing, I bring that up all thetime. And I corrected myself
here, because I'm in a place asbeing recorded. And I recognize
(12:51):
how often I get corrected when Isay, my, my preferred pronouns.
And so I corrected myselfbecause I didn't want to get
that. But I have preferredpronouns depending on where I
am, your safety. My, mypreferred pronouns overall, are
they them, but you know, what,I'm not in family that
supportive. So I and I just Ihave chosen to not put energy
(13:15):
towards that in my own family,because I just don't have the
energy to deal with it. And so Iasked my friends not to correct
my family.
Alex Iantaffi (13:27):
And I think that's a great example of like,
our lives are complex. And evenwhen we talk about, you know,
Nex and Nex's death, it iscomplex, and I've seen a lot of
commentary on social media evenbecause when the video came out,
which I chose not to repost,because also tried to be really
mindful about, you know, howmuch the trauma of minoritized
(13:51):
communities is kind of used astrauma porn really are paying,
replayed over and over and over.
And I really thought is thisfootage that I need to share?
And you can share it why andwhat's my intention? You know,
what is it for, you know, andwho is it for? And why, right,
but I've seen so much socialmedia commentary about this is
right, or this is wrong, or youonly use this pronoun to make
(14:14):
life easier for his family,which I'm like, Yeah, we live
complex lives. And so sometimes,we, you know, there is a
relational dance, and who, youknow, I'm not going to be there
and judge it when I don't know,all the details and all the ins
and outs and I think that's partyou know, that needs to be part
(14:34):
of the conversation because Ithink we all want you know,
because of white supremacy, Ithink and colonialism and
capitalism, some kind of neatlypackagable kind of answers to
this really big questions, butthe reality is that we live
complex multi issue lives. Youknow, and we need to be able to
(14:56):
talk about our complex Multiissue lives in ways that are
more nuanced. And I think that alot of I don't know about you,
but I know that I feel like alot of folks sometimes want to
make it a trans issue, you know,I'm like, No, this is a complex
issue of the ongoing legacy ofcolonialism, the ongoing legacy
(15:17):
of white supremacy. And we needto be able to talk about all of
the things that can separate.
Even that the way weconceptualize gender and
sexuality is a very Westerncolonial way of conceptualizing
gender and sexuality thatdoesn't fit neatly in other
cultures, you know, andabsolutely,
Marissa Stein (15:38):
definitely, and I, and I'm curious about your
thoughts around. I mean, Iwatched the video as well. And I
did not share it because ofeven the, and if, for those who
are not familiar, it's thevideo, I'm assuming is the one
where the being where he isbeing interviewed by the police,
Alex Iantaffi (16:03):
with his mom present in the hospital,
Marissa Stein (16:05):
but that alone, right there being interviewed by
a police officer, that is thatalone is traumatizing. I'm not
sure if you've ever gone throughthat. But that is is
traumatizing. And so that canlike be looking at things from a
harm reduction. I'm not sayingthat that shouldn't be shared,
but it shouldn't be sharednecessarily widely. By everybody
(16:27):
without any, like some contextof like, this is what you're
going to be seeing consentaround around that because other
people who are who have gonethrough that the process, and
especially those who who arealready targeted by police, that
(16:50):
can be a traumatizing thing towitness and to go through. But
yeah, I probably I think I justwent on a train of thought.
Alex Iantaffi (17:01):
That's okay. We can go on many paths, you know,
we're both neuro spicy. So we goon some side quests today. But
you know, as Yeah, I have somany thoughts crowding in my
brain to right now in differentdirections that we can go to.
But I think for me, it's like,I'm always, as you were saying
that I was thinking about Yeah,I feel like there is almost this
(17:21):
kind of belief that it's oftencoming from maybe folks with
more historical privilege.
They're like, Oh, this is sohorrendous, if I share this,
people will wake up becausemaybe this woke me up, right?
Yeah. But I don't I truly don'tbelieve there is any amount of
trauma or violence that we canshow people that will be enough
to unsettle the systems, right.
(17:46):
Right. Before jumping on therecording, we were talking about
how there's so much rhetoric,for example, around protecting,
you know, women and children,but like, which children are we
protecting? Because we'reobviously historically not
protecting indigenous children?
We're not protecting Black andbrown children. In fact, I would
say that for indigenous Blackand brown children, there's
(18:07):
almost an impossibility of beingchildren under colonialism and
white supremacy, right? We'renot protecting trans kids. We're
not protecting disabled kids. Sowhen we're talking about
children, really I would justtalk about cisgender white, able
bodied, moderately affluentchildren because actually if we
were talking about all children,you know we wouldn't be we
(18:30):
wouldn't be grieving yet anotherindigenous youth Yes, you know
dying Yeah, this makes sense andother know if you have any
additional thoughts Yeah.
Marissa Stein (18:45):
I mean, I and that's that's part of like I
have additional thoughts andspecifically in the way they
interview went the recordedinterview went with this a
police officer was the way thatnext was interviewed. Was look
again, it is looking for areason why three cis girls would
(19:11):
attack him right in a bathroom.
And they were looking it seemsto me like the police officer
was looking for that that likewater okay. Oh, well, that must
that must be at then if youpoured water on somebody then
that invites it I'm trying notto bring up another story but
(19:32):
this idea of if you'reprotecting your I'm gonna I'll
state it. If you're protectingyourself from being bullied. And
you've been consistently bulliedfor who you are. And you do
anything to protect yourself.
Yeah, right. And then that isseen as ah, well there you're
the clearly the instigator andany amount of violence. Is is
(19:58):
okay. Yeah. And, and
Alex Iantaffi (20:05):
realize person,
Marissa Stein (20:16):
It's protected white women in bathrooms, white
women and children and bathroomsmust be protected at all costs.
Alex Iantaffi (20:23):
And here's the cost, right? The cost is like a
dead Choctaw youth.
Marissa Stein (20:29):
Oh, yes, a child, a child was
Alex Iantaffi (20:33):
A child who was harrased and not protected by
adults.
Marissa Stein (20:36):
Yes. Right. Yes, in school. And not only that,
but punished. Yes. He wassuspended before he died for
what happened. Yeah.
Alex Iantaffi (20:48):
Yeah. And I've seen it, you know, I have the, I
feel very fortunate to believingin, you know, so called
Minnesota that that is a transrefuge state. And I've seen
trans and queer youth beingharassed by not just their
peers, but by adults or beingpunished for protecting
themselves from the bullying andharassment of their peers, by
(21:10):
adults. And this is likeconstant and, and at which
point, we started saying, Hey,what is kind of what is going
on? It's not normal, you know,talking about it's not normal
for adults to like, harass liketrans youth, you know, and
children. It's not normal foradults to not protect children
(21:32):
that are in their care duringschool time, right? But instead,
we're trying to find reasons tokeep upholding the same systems.
Because if we say it's notnormal, then we really have to
question hang on a minute, whatare we doing, you know, as a
culture and society, so it'smuch easier to put on the
individual, oh, he must havebeen doing something to provoke
(21:53):
those girls, right? Must be hisfault, right? Rather than like,
oh, it makes sense that withthis increased anti trans
sentiment and all the rhetoricthat's being skewed online and
on social media and on TV, thatthose other children because
they're also children thatshould be protected from this
(22:14):
rhetoric, have internalized thatit's okay to kind of abuse and
be violent towards certain bodyminds.
Marissa Stein (22:24):
Yeah, and on that I have, I have, like, two
thoughts, two thoughts to sharethere, because I'm also in a
state that is seen as a transrefuge state that has also has
a, you know, an indigenouspopulation and in reservations,
right. And to, you know, youstep outside the bubble of the
(22:49):
larger cities, and it's not safefor anyone who doesn't align
with a colonized idea of gender.
I think that sums that up, Ithink, hopefully, it's not it's
not safe, even though there'smore gender neutral bathrooms,
because there's only one atservice stations. But it does,
(23:11):
like the safety is so safety,for whom, number one, and then
also the safety is, is I feellike it's over estimated that
absolutely. The exact word thatI'm thinking, but I like as a
(23:32):
person who identifies asagender. I don't feel safe.
Advertising that in Seattleeverywhere. Right. So that's,
that's, that's one thing. Andthe other thing that I wanted to
add to what you just said. Iwonder, and I feel like I'm also
(23:56):
missing there's something else Iwas gonna say. And I kind of, I
think about things of likeempathy comes up a lot, the idea
of empathy and especially beingsomebody who has has been given
the also colonized idea of beingautistic, right, which is the
idea of neuro divergence andneurotypicality is a very
(24:17):
colonizer it's a Westernpsychological which the whole
field is. Is is. fraught, andthat's one of the reasons I'm
starting my podcast is to talkabout the fraughtness of the
idea of normal Yeah. But theidea of empathy, it's really,
(24:44):
like tricky, because peoplecan't truly experience empathy
unless they're connecting it tosomething in their own
experience. Yes, that's whatempathy is. It's not actually
feeling what the other person isfeeling. because we can't do
that, but it's connecting withsomething in your own experience
that brings that up. And so, youknow, I want to like in this
(25:08):
particular experience of whatNex went through if if I'm not
sure I can connect with likewhite sis men on this, but if
White ciswomen can connect withhow it feels to be interrogated
after speaking about a sexualassault, and the feeling of it
(25:33):
being blunt, being blamed for itfor any reason, the same, the
same kind of experience thatthat Nex I mean, I can't speak
exactly, because I have a jobwasn't able to, you know, but I
suspect there's a similarexperience of anybody who is
(25:54):
again being questioned, andneeding to prove that they were
harmed first. Right. Exactly.
And that they didn't dosomething to instigate that
harm. Yeah. Even if the harmthat was like, when the harm
(26:14):
comes back, that's even worsethan the thing that you did. And
why is that? You know, but it'sjust checking for anybody who
happens to be listening, who waskind of on the fence about that,
which I suspect anybody'slistening to anything that we're
putting out is not on the fence.
But like checking, I would likehow, how would that feel to be
questioned? Of your experience?
(26:39):
When you are significantlyharmed? To be, you know, blamed
for it?
Alex Iantaffi (26:45):
Yeah. And what would it feel like to be
questioned and blame forsomething that is so systemic,
right? Yes, something thatyou're experiencing every day,
just as if you, you know, ifyou're a woman in this world,
you're going to experience orread as a woman in any way,
you're going to experience a lotof misogyny, you know, because,
(27:05):
yes, again, complicated, nuancedtopics, right. And then that's
the everyday and then in thismoment of acute crisis, right.
And again, I can only imagine Ican never understand what you
know, Nex's experience has beenthrough, is in terms of what he
(27:26):
experienced every day in thatschool day in day out, and not
just from peers, but from theadults around them. You know,
and I think that it's so, youknow, I was thinking about how
we're getting close to Trans Dayof visibility, you know, which I
believe is March 31, every year,and I was really thinking about
(27:46):
this double edged sword ofvisibility, you know, and how
I've really, in my own lifetime,I've seen, you know, the
visibility of our trans nonbinary gender expansive Two
Spirit community reallyincrease, but also how there is
like, that increased visibilitycan also bring increased hate,
(28:06):
increased pushback, increasedviolence, right? And I'm like, I
am gonna, I think I'm gonna haveso many feelings this year, when
that says allies are gonna postabout, you know, celebrating
trans people, or trans day ofvisibility or, or, you know, and
I'm like, Yes, and where, whereare you when, you know, our
(28:29):
young people need to beprotected, or when somebody is
picking on somebody from theirgender, or when you're like,
talking to your own peers andchildren about gender and
reinforce kind of cisgender iscolonial ideas of gender, right?
It's just, it seems easy to belike, let's celebrate visibility
(28:49):
for trans people one day a week,but then let's keep reinforcing
the, you know, ongoing settlercolonial state, where we are,
you know, every day and but keepreinforcing cisgenderism every
day and, does that make sense,it just, I almost feel like I
have such a difficultrelationship with visibility at
(29:09):
the moment, and that you havevisibility management, and just
what as it's not bringing usincreased safety is not bringing
us increase rights in many ways.
And you know, and I say that, assomebody who's chooses to be
very visible as a trans person,so there's also paradox, right?
I do see some benefits, so thatvisibility, but I also think
about who's paying the cost ofthat visibility, and it's not
(29:31):
going to be me with a higherlevel of privilege, right? Does
that make sense?
Marissa Stein (29:37):
No, it makes total sense. And you have that
Oh, definitely. I mean, I haveright now x on my driver's
license. And I my family is inmost of my family's in Texas.
And I kind of decided, well, I'mnot going to go to Texas
anymore. But my father turns 80in April and my family has
invited me to come and you know,see my father and I'm seeing
(30:01):
where everything is going rightnow in this country. And it's
never been safe, right? I amthinking of going and changing
my driver's license back to Ffor my safety, because me
showing my driver's license toTSA or to a police officer. I
(30:22):
don't feel is making anybodysafer. Right. That is already
again, colonizer experience ofeven having these, these
checkpoints and these things. Ithink we do need licenses to
drive vehicles. But you needtraining or at least training.
(30:43):
Right. But you know, there's somuch to say about that. But
something you you touched on, Ithink it's so important has been
in my mind with a lot of thingsrecently is that idea of a
bottom up approach to trauma.
Right. And so I think a lot ofthings and this is not this is
(31:04):
more this is not a Westernpsychological perspective at
all. This comes from indigenouswisdom. Yeah. Would have in
touch on Maslow, and where hegot his ideas, because that is
that did not come from Europe,by the way. Blackfoot, I think I
believe he was visiting a. And Imay be incorrect with
(31:30):
terminology, because it was inwhat is now called Canada. I
think that was the story. In anyevent, the bottom up approach
I'm thinking of is for, like, wecan't look at this as like white
allies or not white allies, cisallies. Saying this is gonna but
this is I say, it's also worksfor white people, right? This is
(31:55):
going to work with any kind ofmarginalized experience. But the
allies saying well, cognitively,we just have to say you're safe,
and we just have to talk aboutit. No, we have to create the
safety, for it to be safe forpeople who are marginalized to
be visible. We need a bottom upapproach. And we don't have that
right now. And that's why it'sso troubling to see so many
(32:16):
laws, especially aimed at youth.
Alex Iantaffi (32:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
Marissa Stein (32:23):
Because youth are a very marginalized demographic,
they are seen as property oftheir parents. They're seen as
not having any kind of actualagency. We, you know, it's okay
to tickle your kids. Right.
That's terrifying. Yeah.
Alex Iantaffi (32:42):
No, without consent,
Marissa Stein (32:43):
not without consent. Exactly. So and then we
have the intersectional identityof not only are you a youth, but
you are in a marginalized,you've been racialized. Yeah.
And you have the generationaltrauma that is continued. It's
not an end. It continued, andyou're experiencing not only
(33:07):
generational trauma, but in yourown life, right? It's
compounded. And then we havepoliticians making laws that
making it unsafe to exist in theland, and in the land where
you're living. And for those whocannot go to refuge states,
(33:30):
they're just completely left outand the white the separate
again, but it's mostly anyway,white, it's both it's white.
Yes, if sis White is basicallylike we'll get to a state which
you can't where you can.
Alex Iantaffi (33:45):
What, and that's such also a colonial mindset.
Yeah. Because sure, uprootyourself, you're found right
from your community. I think forme, when people say that, and I
say that as an immigrant, who islike, you know, part of the
Italian diaspora and been, youknow, like, as chosen
displacement, because of my owntrans identity.
Marissa Stein (34:05):
I left Texas for reasons, yeah
Alex Iantaffi (34:06):
as well as economics, right. And so it's
like, in to say that with all ofthat in the background, but even
saying, like, yeah, just uprootyour family, and, you know, from
everything they've known andyour relationship and your
community, and go somewhereelse, as if those relationships
don't matter. Right. And so, I
Marissa Stein (34:26):
mean, that's what actually safety is. community
should be safety. Yeah. But weneed to create the safety in the
community, but like, I mean,that it is just so it says, you
know, Empire, settler, colonialsettler, colonialism, whiteness.
(34:47):
And I say that for anybody whois listening, who is not aware
of this, it's not saying thatpeople who have been labeled as
white are sick. The idea ofwhiteness is sick the idea of
race is sick.
Alex Iantaffi (35:00):
Yeah, because it's it's rooted in anti
blackness, it's rooted in antiindigeneity. It's rooted in all
of those things we've beentalking about. And I feel this
conversation could go on for along time. And I want to be
respectful of your time, becauseI know you've got clients and
I'm like, you know, just kind offitting in busy schedules as
(35:23):
therapists, but I feel like Icould have this conversation for
a long time. I love that yeah,that we started from It's Not
Fucking Normal, which is goingto be your podcast. And our this
episode is going to be availableboth on Gender Stories and your
podcast platform when it's out,but maybe to kind of conclude
our conversation like, westarted by saying, we were going
(35:45):
to talk about something elsethat we had to be real about
what is present and true for usright now. How are you taking
care of yourself so that you canshow up for your clients? We're
also right immersed in thismoment. So where are you finding
some rest and restoration sothat you can keep re engaging in
(36:07):
the work that we do every day?
Marissa Stein (36:08):
The thing that's most helpful for me is I take
daily walks outside with my dog,and I have a friend who is a
couple of doors down for me, whois also a therapist. She's a
psychologist, and she works withkiddos. And we talk about
(36:28):
things. In the evening, we kindof talk about what's been going
on for us. And that has been themost beneficial getting out into
nature, connecting with nature,connecting with friends,
connecting with community and mymy dog. Those were the things
that that have been most helpfulfor me. Which shocked not not
(36:49):
shocking, of course, that's whatwhat helps, but it's and that is
what I'm doing. I'm curiousalso, for you, what are you
doing to help with self? Like,the term self care is such a
loaded challenge? How are you?
How are you nurturing yourselfand taking care of yourself
during, like this particularlyinteresting time?
Alex Iantaffi (37:14):
Absolutely. You know, making sure that I do the
basics, like sleeping, drinkingwater, eating, which I know
seems you know, but if I don'tdo that, then I'm not going to
be able to show up, you know,very similar in terms of
connecting with like nature,connecting with my family and
community. My lovely animalcompanions, you know, because,
(37:39):
and, and I love that whenever Italk to people, that is what
holds us. Relationships, the webof relationships, that holds us
which again, you know, zerosurprise that we were always
meant to be kind of inrelationship. And so of course,
you know, relationship withnature, relationship with self,
(37:59):
relationship with each other.
That's, that's where we find ourrest and restoration, right?
We're an interdependent species.
But unfortunately, yeah,colonialism, white supremacy
kind of really dehumanize us inthis way. And part of the
humanization is taking us awayfrom those relationships.
Marissa Stein (38:21):
Well, I am just so grateful that even though I
have a fraught relationship withtechnology, and a fraught
relationship with AASECT, I amvery grateful that both of those
have brought me in connectionwith you.
Alex Iantaffi (38:38):
Thank you, and likewise, some. And for those of
you who are listening who don'tknow what AASECT, actually is,
it's the American Associationfor Sex Educators, Counselors
and Therapists, which is howMarissa and I first kind of
connected and of course, fortechnology because of distance.
Well, I know that you have to gobut I always ask all the guests,
you know, is there anything thatwe haven't touched on that you
(39:01):
are hoping to talk about? And Iknow we'll probably do another
episode on the original topic wewere gonna talk about, but is
there anything else that youwanted to mention for today?
Marissa Stein (39:11):
I think I want to mention that as a final note,
that it's so important to helpsupport youth to feel safe to be
who they are, who they trulyare. Because that is what helps
(39:34):
create healthy, connectedadults. You know, that's,
Alex Iantaffi (39:41):
I love that.
Marissa Stein (39:42):
And so I don't work with many youth. I'm more
focused on adults in the workthat I do, but I work with a lot
of adults who were not supportedas youth. And it's an unpacking
in a lot to trauma work, and soI am so invested in making sure
(40:05):
that the importance ofprotecting marginalized youth
continues to be like spokenabout and we need to do we need
to do better. We all we need topay attention to other states
and do better. Yeah.
Alex Iantaffi (40:26):
And we need to remember that, like, all young
people are legacy as, as aspecies as a community, right
for me, being brought up in amore collectivistic culture
where all the children ourchildren of the community. And
so for me, I think what hitshard is like, we need to look at
Nex and we need to look at allthose children and think they
(40:48):
are our children. Because aslong as they think that and
while also recognizing thedifferences, right, and the
different legacies, but if westart to think of all this trans
non binary gender expensive twospirit youth as our children,
the indigenous missing andmurdered kind of young women and
young Two Spirit folks, they'reour children, right? The young
(41:10):
murdered black and brown kids,they're our kids, you know, that
we need to come back to ourhumanity. I really feel that
very deeply right now. And rightnow I feels sometimes we're so
far from our humanity,
Marissa Stein (41:26):
a topic for another podcast, To be
continued.
Alex Iantaffi (41:30):
To be continued.
Dear listeners, thank you forbeing here. I know this was not
an uplifting episode. And ourhearts are heavy, and sometimes
it's okay to be with theheaviness. But I hope that you
feel a little bit less alone,and that we can at least
connecting our grief. And thankyou for listening for being here
(41:51):
and for showing up in yourcommunities and in your
relationship, as best as youcan. Until next time.
Hello and welcome to another episode of gender
stories. I know I'm alwaysexcited, but what can I say I
just get to meet the best peopleand I get to interview wonderful
people that I know from otherparts of my life. So today, I am
elated to introduce to youMarissa Stein, a licensed mental
(00:21):
health counselor in the state ofWashington, an AASECT therapist
and nationally certifiedcounselor. They are non binary
neuro queer, kinky and queerpagan practitioner magic, who
lives with chronic pain anddisability. Even the slipped
experiences that found theimpact of intersectional
marginalization. As a whiteperson Marissa does their best
(00:43):
to be aware of their ownprivilege and biases as part of
dominant Eurocentric descendantculture. They endeavor to do
their best to do anti oppressionwork that is trauma aware and
believe that every persondeserves to enjoy their life
free from shame and oppression.
They strive for culturalhumility, humility, and to be an
accomplice in the continuedfight against white supremacy,
wherever they can. Thank you somuch for making the time to talk
(01:07):
with me today. And you have apodcast that you're about to
launch soon. Right? Do you wantto add what the podcast is
called? Yes.
Marissa Stein (01:18):
So it's going to launch soon, I'm waiting on
getting kind of the branding andproduction details finalized.
It's called not fucking normal,because I'm not and I'm not
gonna. Yep.
Alex Iantaffi (01:30):
And I think that's a beautiful segue, that
we were actually going to talkabout a totally different
subject. I mean, we were goingto talk about, you know, body
image issues and disorderedeating and gender, you know,
because those are all thingsthat we're passionate about. But
when we got together beforerecording, we were like, the
world is heavy, we're exhausted,we're grieving. This is not
(01:53):
fucking normal. And yet again,you know, we're grieving the
death of trans youth NexBenedict, you know, and it's
just, this is so heavy on ourhearts, as well as all the other
ongoing things that are goingon, you know, witnessing
multiple genocides and warsright now. And so we decided to
actually just pivot and talkabout what is happening in our
(02:17):
trans, non binary, genderexpansive, two spirit community
and to talk about the impact ofthis ongoing systemic violence
and grief on our life astherapists in the lives of the
clients we serve were oftentrans non binary gender
expensive to spirit themselves.
Marissa Stein (02:36):
Yeah. And in on that note, I feel like it's
important to also just statethat the land that I'm on while
called Washington while calledSeattle is unceded, Duwamish,
Coast Salish Suquamish andStillaguamish. lands. And like,
(02:57):
you mentioned, this is notnormal and like, and yet it is,
yeah, it is normal. And itshouldn't be.
Alex Iantaffi (03:08):
And absolutely, and I think that because
colonization is so normalized,cisgenderism is so normalized.
Capitalism is so normalized.
We're all trying to go throughthe motions and other know about
you. But you know, and I live onDakota Anishinabek territories,
can we known as Minnesota, thatright now, everybody I'm talking
to, they're exhausted, theirheart is heavy, you know, they,
(03:31):
they're really just hanging onby a thread. But we're all like
pushing through, you know, as ifthings were normal, but they're
not. And so I'm wondering howthat is showing up in your own
life in the life of your clientsif you are finding similar
things where you are?
Marissa Stein (03:50):
Yeah, it's it's, I say interesting, a lot to not
judgment on stuff isinteresting. And I think there's
that you know, that curses, mayyou live in interesting times
and woof. And, you know, I, I goback to this, this idea of it's
(04:13):
not that right now is we'redealing with more suffering than
in, like past history. But thefact that we are so connected,
we're dealing with this the waythat we're getting our
information is so destabilizingto our nervous system, if that
(04:35):
makes sense. Yeah. That is notthat is not for humans. It's not
normal. And so what I am seeingis a combination of people who
have skin in the game. Not beingable to separate from what's
(04:55):
going on, right. And people whodon't, I mean it's the same old
story, people who don't have theoption of looking away to do
more caretaking of themselves,because that is also necessary.
But for those who are living inthat consistent state of this is
(05:15):
affecting my experience can'tand so I struggle with this, I
think about this a lot of withmy various identities, I can't
step away from identity, myidentity and my trans identity.
But I'm white. So I can likepotentially easily step away
(05:37):
when I need to, to take care ofmy nervous system, because I am
white. And I like acknowledgingthe fact that that is a
privilege to be able to do that.
I can't with being trans beingalso what is labeled as
neurodivergent, but I don'tbelieve in neurotypicality at
all. But that experience, Ican't step away from that. And
(05:59):
so this shows up in in my ownpersonal work and work with
other with clients who haveshared but also different
identities of recognizing thatwhen we need to be able to find
moments of safety, for ournervous system, to be able to be
able to keep going. And ifyou're dealing with that, that
(06:24):
continuous stress and emotionalvigilance, it's more of a
active, I have to find ways todo this and create a sense of
safety, right? And then ifyou're not with somebody to
living with the skin in the gamething, it is easier to be like,
Well, I'm just not going to lookat the news for a bit. Yeah,
(06:46):
right. And it's easier to just,I'm just gonna go take a walk,
and it's gonna be fine. But ifyou're in the state of like,
this is actively affecting myday to day, it's more a matter
of like, okay, I have to, I haveto consciously set it aside to
find some joy to find some senseof peace. So that's what I see
showing up a lot for me and forpeople that I'm working with.
(07:08):
But it's, it's it's justdifferent, different
experiences, depending on theidentities that are shared, and
the recognition that there's alot of privilege in the ability
to not have to, like put a lotof effort into trying to create
that sense of safety. Does that
Alex Iantaffi (07:30):
That makes so much sense to me, you know,
that makes sense?
because I'm even thinking about,you know, some of the things
I've seen about like, it's okayto rest, but rest is not
retreating. Right. And so whenI'm thinking about what you were
talking about, I'm thinkingabout, you know, like how, yeah,
similarly, I really have to makea call on, you know, the
(07:52):
different intersections aroundpower and privilege. And I need
to make that conscious effort toknow I need to rest I need to
sleep, I also need to move thisgrief in some way to show up,
right for my clients. Andresting is not retreating is not
switching off, right. And evenwhen I'm resting, I can
(08:12):
completely take this out of theequation, right. And I see it
even thinking about, you know,Nex and Nex's family and
community, they've really beenon my heart and witnessing on
social media, also a lot ofindigenous folks, for example,
saying, hey, Nex is likeindigenous belonging and
(08:34):
identity as a member of theChoctaw Nation is like being
erased, right? Or is beingweaponized. So kind of just lift
up, you know, trans issuessometimes by organizations who
haven't really put in the timeto build relationship with
indigenous communities and willstill come from a very
colonizing kind of perspectiveor benefit, you know, from the
(08:56):
ongoing colonial settlerproject. And so, that is
complex, because then I see my,you know, trans non binary
gender expensive to spirit,indigenous siblings, it's almost
like this, you know, doublewhammy of like, this is just
more indigenous folks, you know,suffering in schools that
(09:17):
already have a rendus legacy ofsystemic violence against
indigenous folks. And this isnot just the trans issue, this
is them going legacy ofcolonialism. This is the ongoing
legacy of our folks, you know,getting killed and murdered or
just worn down but like systemicviolence over and over. I don't
(09:39):
know if that's where you were atsome of the things you were
thinking about as well or
Marissa Stein (09:43):
Oh, yes. Yeah, definitely. And it's like I feel
like saying is like an on theirland on their land. Absolutely.
This is not European soil. No,this is not the descendant of
European soil. This is you know,and I am I zero I have zero
I mean they have two pronouns,they and he, and it sounds like
Indigenous American ties at allwhen it comes to ancestry. And,
(10:07):
you know, it's, there wassomething I was gonna say, but
of course, oh, yes, yeah.
Something that I that maybe someof those who are listening are
aware of but doing and I'm justgoing to comment on the fact
that AASECT itself, there's someit's not there's no perfection
there I have had my own thoughtsand feelings around whether or
(10:32):
not continuing to be part ofAASECT. But in going through the
AASECT process of becoming acertified sex therapist, we have
to go through the thing called aSAR, which is sexual attitude.
reassessment, is that theassessment? Yeah. And, you know,
(10:52):
it's, it was such a, I was luckyto take it from somebody who was
Black, and to not get it from aframing from a like a white
person. And one of the thingsthat I loved the one I get to
learn things that weren't partof my academic training, because
(11:12):
none of this is part of theacademic training overall, like
it's not a focus, you have tokind of like go out and find it
yourself. If it's important toyou, you find it you can was the
very idea that the termtransgender is is a Eurocentric
like colonizer term. And sopeople from all over the world
(11:37):
who are not part of this, thatculture, that's not a term that
isn't necessarily evenconnected, because it's a
colonizer term. So for transpeople who are labeling two
spirit folks, or genderexpansive, depending on or not
even gender expansive, just likeliving lives part of culture,
(12:01):
and then say, oh, but you'retrans. And I'm not saying like,
I honestly don't know that muchabout Nex's background, other
than the things that I have paidattention to, I do know that
they're part of the ChoctawNation, and I do know, you know,
preferred preferred, butpronouns name,
(12:30):
they did prefer he, that's whatI'm hearing because also even
with pronouns, I'm like, some ofus have more than one pronoun.
Yeah. So, I mean, all pronouns,you know, like, yeah, yes. If
you only have one, but if youhave more than one, you might
have reference. Yeah,well, that's, like, that's the
thing, I bring that up all thetime. And I corrected myself
here, because I'm in a place asbeing recorded. And I recognize
(12:51):
how often I get corrected when Isay, my, my preferred pronouns.
And so I corrected myselfbecause I didn't want to get
that. But I have preferredpronouns depending on where I
am, your safety. My, mypreferred pronouns overall, are
they them, but you know, what,I'm not in family that
supportive. So I and I just Ihave chosen to not put energy
(13:15):
towards that in my own family,because I just don't have the
energy to deal with it. And so Iasked my friends not to correct
my family.
Alex Iantaffi (13:27):
And I think that's a great example of like,
our lives are complex. And evenwhen we talk about, you know,
Nex and Nex's death, it iscomplex, and I've seen a lot of
commentary on social media evenbecause when the video came out,
which I chose not to repost,because also tried to be really
mindful about, you know, howmuch the trauma of minoritized
(13:51):
communities is kind of used astrauma porn really are paying,
replayed over and over and over.
And I really thought is thisfootage that I need to share?
And you can share it why andwhat's my intention? You know,
what is it for, you know, andwho is it for? And why, right,
but I've seen so much socialmedia commentary about this is
right, or this is wrong, or youonly use this pronoun to make
(14:14):
life easier for his family,which I'm like, Yeah, we live
complex lives. And so sometimes,we, you know, there is a
relational dance, and who, youknow, I'm not going to be there
and judge it when I don't know,all the details and all the ins
and outs and I think that's partyou know, that needs to be part
(14:34):
of the conversation because Ithink we all want you know,
because of white supremacy, Ithink and colonialism and
capitalism, some kind of neatlypackagable kind of answers to
this really big questions, butthe reality is that we live
complex multi issue lives. Youknow, and we need to be able to
(14:56):
talk about our complex Multiissue lives in ways that are
more nuanced. And I think that alot of I don't know about you,
but I know that I feel like alot of folks sometimes want to
make it a trans issue, you know,I'm like, No, this is a complex
issue of the ongoing legacy ofcolonialism, the ongoing legacy
(15:17):
of white supremacy. And we needto be able to talk about all of
the things that can separate.
Even that the way weconceptualize gender and
sexuality is a very Westerncolonial way of conceptualizing
gender and sexuality thatdoesn't fit neatly in other
cultures, you know, andabsolutely,
Marissa Stein (15:38):
definitely, and I, and I'm curious about your
thoughts around. I mean, Iwatched the video as well. And I
did not share it because ofeven the, and if, for those who
are not familiar, it's thevideo, I'm assuming is the one
where the being where he isbeing interviewed by the police,
Alex Iantaffi (16:03):
with his mom present in the hospital,
Marissa Stein (16:05):
but that alone, right there being interviewed by
a police officer, that is thatalone is traumatizing. I'm not
sure if you've ever gone throughthat. But that is is
traumatizing. And so that canlike be looking at things from a
harm reduction. I'm not sayingthat that shouldn't be shared,
but it shouldn't be sharednecessarily widely. By everybody
(16:27):
without any, like some contextof like, this is what you're
going to be seeing consentaround around that because other
people who are who have gonethrough that the process, and
especially those who who arealready targeted by police, that
(16:50):
can be a traumatizing thing towitness and to go through. But
yeah, I probably I think I justwent on a train of thought.
Alex Iantaffi (17:01):
That's okay. We can go on many paths, you know,
we're both neuro spicy. So we goon some side quests today. But
you know, as Yeah, I have somany thoughts crowding in my
brain to right now in differentdirections that we can go to.
But I think for me, it's like,I'm always, as you were saying
that I was thinking about Yeah,I feel like there is almost this
(17:21):
kind of belief that it's oftencoming from maybe folks with
more historical privilege.
They're like, Oh, this is sohorrendous, if I share this,
people will wake up becausemaybe this woke me up, right?
Yeah. But I don't I truly don'tbelieve there is any amount of
trauma or violence that we canshow people that will be enough
to unsettle the systems, right.
(17:46):
Right. Before jumping on therecording, we were talking about
how there's so much rhetoric,for example, around protecting,
you know, women and children,but like, which children are we
protecting? Because we'reobviously historically not
protecting indigenous children?
We're not protecting Black andbrown children. In fact, I would
say that for indigenous Blackand brown children, there's
(18:07):
almost an impossibility of beingchildren under colonialism and
white supremacy, right? We'renot protecting trans kids. We're
not protecting disabled kids. Sowhen we're talking about
children, really I would justtalk about cisgender white, able
bodied, moderately affluentchildren because actually if we
were talking about all children,you know we wouldn't be we
(18:30):
wouldn't be grieving yet anotherindigenous youth Yes, you know
dying Yeah, this makes sense andother know if you have any
additional thoughts Yeah.
Marissa Stein (18:45):
I mean, I and that's that's part of like I
have additional thoughts andspecifically in the way they
interview went the recordedinterview went with this a
police officer was the way thatnext was interviewed. Was look
again, it is looking for areason why three cis girls would
(19:11):
attack him right in a bathroom.
And they were looking it seemsto me like the police officer
was looking for that that likewater okay. Oh, well, that must
that must be at then if youpoured water on somebody then
that invites it I'm trying notto bring up another story but
(19:32):
this idea of if you'reprotecting your I'm gonna I'll
state it. If you're protectingyourself from being bullied. And
you've been consistently bulliedfor who you are. And you do
anything to protect yourself.
Yeah, right. And then that isseen as ah, well there you're
the clearly the instigator andany amount of violence. Is is
(19:58):
okay. Yeah. And, and
Alex Iantaffi (20:05):
realize person,
Marissa Stein (20:16):
It's protected white women in bathrooms, white
women and children and bathroomsmust be protected at all costs.
Alex Iantaffi (20:23):
And here's the cost, right? The cost is like a
dead Choctaw youth.
Marissa Stein (20:29):
Oh, yes, a child, a child was
Alex Iantaffi (20:33):
A child who was harrased and not protected by
adults.
Marissa Stein (20:36):
Yes. Right. Yes, in school. And not only that,
but punished. Yes. He wassuspended before he died for
what happened. Yeah.
Alex Iantaffi (20:48):
Yeah. And I've seen it, you know, I have the, I
feel very fortunate to believingin, you know, so called
Minnesota that that is a transrefuge state. And I've seen
trans and queer youth beingharassed by not just their
peers, but by adults or beingpunished for protecting
themselves from the bullying andharassment of their peers, by
(21:10):
adults. And this is likeconstant and, and at which
point, we started saying, Hey,what is kind of what is going
on? It's not normal, you know,talking about it's not normal
for adults to like, harass liketrans youth, you know, and
children. It's not normal foradults to not protect children
(21:32):
that are in their care duringschool time, right? But instead,
we're trying to find reasons tokeep upholding the same systems.
Because if we say it's notnormal, then we really have to
question hang on a minute, whatare we doing, you know, as a
culture and society, so it'smuch easier to put on the
individual, oh, he must havebeen doing something to provoke
(21:53):
those girls, right? Must be hisfault, right? Rather than like,
oh, it makes sense that withthis increased anti trans
sentiment and all the rhetoricthat's being skewed online and
on social media and on TV, thatthose other children because
they're also children thatshould be protected from this
(22:14):
rhetoric, have internalized thatit's okay to kind of abuse and
be violent towards certain bodyminds.
Marissa Stein (22:24):
Yeah, and on that I have, I have, like, two
thoughts, two thoughts to sharethere, because I'm also in a
state that is seen as a transrefuge state that has also has
a, you know, an indigenouspopulation and in reservations,
right. And to, you know, youstep outside the bubble of the
(22:49):
larger cities, and it's not safefor anyone who doesn't align
with a colonized idea of gender.
I think that sums that up, Ithink, hopefully, it's not it's
not safe, even though there'smore gender neutral bathrooms,
because there's only one atservice stations. But it does,
(23:11):
like the safety is so safety,for whom, number one, and then
also the safety is, is I feellike it's over estimated that
absolutely. The exact word thatI'm thinking, but I like as a
(23:32):
person who identifies asagender. I don't feel safe.
Advertising that in Seattleeverywhere. Right. So that's,
that's, that's one thing. Andthe other thing that I wanted to
add to what you just said. Iwonder, and I feel like I'm also
(23:56):
missing there's something else Iwas gonna say. And I kind of, I
think about things of likeempathy comes up a lot, the idea
of empathy and especially beingsomebody who has has been given
the also colonized idea of beingautistic, right, which is the
idea of neuro divergence andneurotypicality is a very
(24:17):
colonizer it's a Westernpsychological which the whole
field is. Is is. fraught, andthat's one of the reasons I'm
starting my podcast is to talkabout the fraughtness of the
idea of normal Yeah. But theidea of empathy, it's really,
(24:44):
like tricky, because peoplecan't truly experience empathy
unless they're connecting it tosomething in their own
experience. Yes, that's whatempathy is. It's not actually
feeling what the other person isfeeling. because we can't do
that, but it's connecting withsomething in your own experience
that brings that up. And so, youknow, I want to like in this
(25:08):
particular experience of whatNex went through if if I'm not
sure I can connect with likewhite sis men on this, but if
White ciswomen can connect withhow it feels to be interrogated
after speaking about a sexualassault, and the feeling of it
(25:33):
being blunt, being blamed for itfor any reason, the same, the
same kind of experience thatthat Nex I mean, I can't speak
exactly, because I have a jobwasn't able to, you know, but I
suspect there's a similarexperience of anybody who is
(25:54):
again being questioned, andneeding to prove that they were
harmed first. Right. Exactly.
And that they didn't dosomething to instigate that
harm. Yeah. Even if the harmthat was like, when the harm
(26:14):
comes back, that's even worsethan the thing that you did. And
why is that? You know, but it'sjust checking for anybody who
happens to be listening, who waskind of on the fence about that,
which I suspect anybody'slistening to anything that we're
putting out is not on the fence.
But like checking, I would likehow, how would that feel to be
questioned? Of your experience?
(26:39):
When you are significantlyharmed? To be, you know, blamed
for it?
Alex Iantaffi (26:45):
Yeah. And what would it feel like to be
questioned and blame forsomething that is so systemic,
right? Yes, something thatyou're experiencing every day,
just as if you, you know, ifyou're a woman in this world,
you're going to experience orread as a woman in any way,
you're going to experience a lotof misogyny, you know, because,
(27:05):
yes, again, complicated, nuancedtopics, right. And then that's
the everyday and then in thismoment of acute crisis, right.
And again, I can only imagine Ican never understand what you
know, Nex's experience has beenthrough, is in terms of what he
(27:26):
experienced every day in thatschool day in day out, and not
just from peers, but from theadults around them. You know,
and I think that it's so, youknow, I was thinking about how
we're getting close to Trans Dayof visibility, you know, which I
believe is March 31, every year,and I was really thinking about
(27:46):
this double edged sword ofvisibility, you know, and how
I've really, in my own lifetime,I've seen, you know, the
visibility of our trans nonbinary gender expansive Two
Spirit community reallyincrease, but also how there is
like, that increased visibilitycan also bring increased hate,
(28:06):
increased pushback, increasedviolence, right? And I'm like, I
am gonna, I think I'm gonna haveso many feelings this year, when
that says allies are gonna postabout, you know, celebrating
trans people, or trans day ofvisibility or, or, you know, and
I'm like, Yes, and where, whereare you when, you know, our
(28:29):
young people need to beprotected, or when somebody is
picking on somebody from theirgender, or when you're like,
talking to your own peers andchildren about gender and
reinforce kind of cisgender iscolonial ideas of gender, right?
It's just, it seems easy to belike, let's celebrate visibility
(28:49):
for trans people one day a week,but then let's keep reinforcing
the, you know, ongoing settlercolonial state, where we are,
you know, every day and but keepreinforcing cisgenderism every
day and, does that make sense,it just, I almost feel like I
have such a difficultrelationship with visibility at
(29:09):
the moment, and that you havevisibility management, and just
what as it's not bringing usincreased safety is not bringing
us increase rights in many ways.
And you know, and I say that, assomebody who's chooses to be
very visible as a trans person,so there's also paradox, right?
I do see some benefits, so thatvisibility, but I also think
about who's paying the cost ofthat visibility, and it's not
(29:31):
going to be me with a higherlevel of privilege, right? Does
that make sense?
Marissa Stein (29:37):
No, it makes total sense. And you have that
Oh, definitely. I mean, I haveright now x on my driver's
license. And I my family is inmost of my family's in Texas.
And I kind of decided, well, I'mnot going to go to Texas
anymore. But my father turns 80in April and my family has
invited me to come and you know,see my father and I'm seeing
(30:01):
where everything is going rightnow in this country. And it's
never been safe, right? I amthinking of going and changing
my driver's license back to Ffor my safety, because me
showing my driver's license toTSA or to a police officer. I
(30:22):
don't feel is making anybodysafer. Right. That is already
again, colonizer experience ofeven having these, these
checkpoints and these things. Ithink we do need licenses to
drive vehicles. But you needtraining or at least training.
(30:43):
Right. But you know, there's somuch to say about that. But
something you you touched on, Ithink it's so important has been
in my mind with a lot of thingsrecently is that idea of a
bottom up approach to trauma.
Right. And so I think a lot ofthings and this is not this is
(31:04):
more this is not a Westernpsychological perspective at
all. This comes from indigenouswisdom. Yeah. Would have in
touch on Maslow, and where hegot his ideas, because that is
that did not come from Europe,by the way. Blackfoot, I think I
believe he was visiting a. And Imay be incorrect with
(31:30):
terminology, because it was inwhat is now called Canada. I
think that was the story. In anyevent, the bottom up approach
I'm thinking of is for, like, wecan't look at this as like white
allies or not white allies, cisallies. Saying this is gonna but
this is I say, it's also worksfor white people, right? This is
(31:55):
going to work with any kind ofmarginalized experience. But the
allies saying well, cognitively,we just have to say you're safe,
and we just have to talk aboutit. No, we have to create the
safety, for it to be safe forpeople who are marginalized to
be visible. We need a bottom upapproach. And we don't have that
right now. And that's why it'sso troubling to see so many
(32:16):
laws, especially aimed at youth.
Alex Iantaffi (32:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
Marissa Stein (32:23):
Because youth are a very marginalized demographic,
they are seen as property oftheir parents. They're seen as
not having any kind of actualagency. We, you know, it's okay
to tickle your kids. Right.
That's terrifying. Yeah.
Alex Iantaffi (32:42):
No, without consent,
Marissa Stein (32:43):
not without consent. Exactly. So and then we
have the intersectional identityof not only are you a youth, but
you are in a marginalized,you've been racialized. Yeah.
And you have the generationaltrauma that is continued. It's
not an end. It continued, andyou're experiencing not only
(33:07):
generational trauma, but in yourown life, right? It's
compounded. And then we havepoliticians making laws that
making it unsafe to exist in theland, and in the land where
you're living. And for those whocannot go to refuge states,
(33:30):
they're just completely left outand the white the separate
again, but it's mostly anyway,white, it's both it's white.
Yes, if sis White is basicallylike we'll get to a state which
you can't where you can.
Alex Iantaffi (33:45):
What, and that's such also a colonial mindset.
Yeah. Because sure, uprootyourself, you're found right
from your community. I think forme, when people say that, and I
say that as an immigrant, who islike, you know, part of the
Italian diaspora and been, youknow, like, as chosen
displacement, because of my owntrans identity.
Marissa Stein (34:05):
I left Texas for reasons, yeah
Alex Iantaffi (34:06):
as well as economics, right. And so it's
like, in to say that with all ofthat in the background, but even
saying, like, yeah, just uprootyour family, and, you know, from
everything they've known andyour relationship and your
community, and go somewhereelse, as if those relationships
don't matter. Right. And so, I
Marissa Stein (34:26):
mean, that's what actually safety is. community
should be safety. Yeah. But weneed to create the safety in the
community, but like, I mean,that it is just so it says, you
know, Empire, settler, colonialsettler, colonialism, whiteness.
(34:47):
And I say that for anybody whois listening, who is not aware
of this, it's not saying thatpeople who have been labeled as
white are sick. The idea ofwhiteness is sick the idea of
race is sick.
Alex Iantaffi (35:00):
Yeah, because it's it's rooted in anti
blackness, it's rooted in antiindigeneity. It's rooted in all
of those things we've beentalking about. And I feel this
conversation could go on for along time. And I want to be
respectful of your time, becauseI know you've got clients and
I'm like, you know, just kind offitting in busy schedules as
(35:23):
therapists, but I feel like Icould have this conversation for
a long time. I love that yeah,that we started from It's Not
Fucking Normal, which is goingto be your podcast. And our this
episode is going to be availableboth on Gender Stories and your
podcast platform when it's out,but maybe to kind of conclude
our conversation like, westarted by saying, we were going
(35:45):
to talk about something elsethat we had to be real about
what is present and true for usright now. How are you taking
care of yourself so that you canshow up for your clients? We're
also right immersed in thismoment. So where are you finding
some rest and restoration sothat you can keep re engaging in
(36:07):
the work that we do every day?
Marissa Stein (36:08):
The thing that's most helpful for me is I take
daily walks outside with my dog,and I have a friend who is a
couple of doors down for me, whois also a therapist. She's a
psychologist, and she works withkiddos. And we talk about
(36:28):
things. In the evening, we kindof talk about what's been going
on for us. And that has been themost beneficial getting out into
nature, connecting with nature,connecting with friends,
connecting with community and mymy dog. Those were the things
that that have been most helpfulfor me. Which shocked not not
(36:49):
shocking, of course, that's whatwhat helps, but it's and that is
what I'm doing. I'm curiousalso, for you, what are you
doing to help with self? Like,the term self care is such a
loaded challenge? How are you?
How are you nurturing yourselfand taking care of yourself
during, like this particularlyinteresting time?
Alex Iantaffi (37:14):
Absolutely. You know, making sure that I do the
basics, like sleeping, drinkingwater, eating, which I know
seems you know, but if I don'tdo that, then I'm not going to
be able to show up, you know,very similar in terms of
connecting with like nature,connecting with my family and
community. My lovely animalcompanions, you know, because,
(37:39):
and, and I love that whenever Italk to people, that is what
holds us. Relationships, the webof relationships, that holds us
which again, you know, zerosurprise that we were always
meant to be kind of inrelationship. And so of course,
you know, relationship withnature, relationship with self,
(37:59):
relationship with each other.
That's, that's where we find ourrest and restoration, right?
We're an interdependent species.
But unfortunately, yeah,colonialism, white supremacy
kind of really dehumanize us inthis way. And part of the
humanization is taking us awayfrom those relationships.
Marissa Stein (38:21):
Well, I am just so grateful that even though I
have a fraught relationship withtechnology, and a fraught
relationship with AASECT, I amvery grateful that both of those
have brought me in connectionwith you.
Alex Iantaffi (38:38):
Thank you, and likewise, some. And for those of
you who are listening who don'tknow what AASECT, actually is,
it's the American Associationfor Sex Educators, Counselors
and Therapists, which is howMarissa and I first kind of
connected and of course, fortechnology because of distance.
Well, I know that you have to gobut I always ask all the guests,
you know, is there anything thatwe haven't touched on that you
(39:01):
are hoping to talk about? And Iknow we'll probably do another
episode on the original topic wewere gonna talk about, but is
there anything else that youwanted to mention for today?
Marissa Stein (39:11):
I think I want to mention that as a final note,
that it's so important to helpsupport youth to feel safe to be
who they are, who they trulyare. Because that is what helps
(39:34):
create healthy, connectedadults. You know, that's,
Alex Iantaffi (39:41):
I love that.
Marissa Stein (39:42):
And so I don't work with many youth. I'm more
focused on adults in the workthat I do, but I work with a lot
of adults who were not supportedas youth. And it's an unpacking
in a lot to trauma work, and soI am so invested in making sure
(40:05):
that the importance ofprotecting marginalized youth
continues to be like spokenabout and we need to do we need
to do better. We all we need topay attention to other states
and do better. Yeah.
Alex Iantaffi (40:26):
And we need to remember that, like, all young
people are legacy as, as aspecies as a community, right
for me, being brought up in amore collectivistic culture
where all the children ourchildren of the community. And
so for me, I think what hitshard is like, we need to look at
Nex and we need to look at allthose children and think they
(40:48):
are our children. Because aslong as they think that and
while also recognizing thedifferences, right, and the
different legacies, but if westart to think of all this trans
non binary gender expensive twospirit youth as our children,
the indigenous missing andmurdered kind of young women and
young Two Spirit folks, they'reour children, right? The young
(41:10):
murdered black and brown kids,they're our kids, you know, that
we need to come back to ourhumanity. I really feel that
very deeply right now. And rightnow I feels sometimes we're so
far from our humanity,
Marissa Stein (41:26):
a topic for another podcast, To be
continued.
Alex Iantaffi (41:30):
To be continued.
Dear listeners, thank you forbeing here. I know this was not
an uplifting episode. And ourhearts are heavy, and sometimes
it's okay to be with theheaviness. But I hope that you
feel a little bit less alone,and that we can at least
connecting our grief. And thankyou for listening for being here
(41:51):
and for showing up in yourcommunities and in your
relationship, as best as youcan. Until next time.
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