May 26, 2025 • 15 mins
What separates truly exceptional trial lawyers from the rest? It's rarely what they teach in law school.
Six accomplished courtroom veterans—Brian Panish, Sean Flaherty, Keith Mitnick, Jason Leonard, John Ustall, and Joshua Koskoff—share candid insights drawn from decades of high-stakes litigation. Their collective wisdom forms a practical roadmap for attorneys at any stage, but especially those working to establish themselves in the challenging world of trial advocacy.
The journey begins earlier than many realize. These attorneys emphasize the transformative power of immersing yourself in legal practice during law school, absorbing the unwritten rules and developing intuitive skills through proximity and observation. Yet they remain refreshingly honest about the timeline—expect to "tread water" for several years before hitting your stride. Even veterans with decades of experience admit to experiencing pre-trial anxiety. The difference? They've learned to function effectively despite it.
For new lawyers preparing for their first courtroom experiences, the advice challenges conventional wisdom. Perfection isn't necessary—authenticity is. When you thoroughly prepare and genuinely believe in your case, minor technical imperfections actually make you more relatable to jurors. This permission to be human while maintaining high professional standards liberates attorneys to focus on what truly matters: thorough preparation, strategic case framing, and passionate advocacy.
Beyond the courtroom, success requires intentional networking, exceptional client service, and embracing collaborative approaches. The strongest advocates recognize that mentorship and knowledge-sharing create collective strength against well-resourced opponents. Through every challenge, maintaining your authentic voice while incorporating lessons from those who came before creates a sustainable foundation for a meaningful career in trial law.
Ready to transform your approach to trial advocacy? Subscribe now for more practical insights from the profession's most accomplished practitioners.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
All right, here we go .
Are we ready?
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Today we are jumping into a really rich collection of
insights shared by one of ourlisteners.
It's wisdom drawn fromconversations with several very
accomplished trial lawyers.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
That's right.
We've got input here from BrianPanish and Sean Flaherty, keith
Mitnick, jason Leonard, johnUstall and Joshua Koskoff too
Leonard John Ustall and JoshuaKoskoff too and they've shared
quite a bit their experiences,lessons learned you know often
the hard way and some reallypractical tips.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Especially for young lawyers, right, those just
starting out or aiming forsuccess in the courtroom.
And just well, the professionoverall.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Exactly, our goal here is really to pull out the
essential advice you need.
It's about the realities, theactual practice of building a
legal career.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Yeah, facing the hurdles, finding your footing.
This isn't just theory.
Okay, let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Somebody that's going to law school.
They're just getting out of lawschool.
They want to representplaintiffs.
They want to get in theplaintiff personal injury
business.
Sure, what advice do you havefor them?
Speaker 4 (01:03):
The first thing.
I think that's crucial and ishere, but some of our best
lawyers have started workingwith us while they're in law
school.
So you know I started here,like I said, when I was in law
school.
I can go down the list, but Iprobably we have 42 lawyers.
(01:24):
I would say a quarter of them,maybe more, worked here when
they were in law school.
Period of time and hearing itand knowing it innately in you
(01:48):
and learning the language andlearning how to speak to clients
and learning how to deal withpeople and that, to me, is stuff
that, although you're gettingpaid not as much as you'd want
to be at that point in time thefact that you're around it and
learning it is invaluable forpractice later.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
So the first big theme I think that really comes
through is this idea of startingearly, getting your feet wet as
soon as possible.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Absolutely.
Sean Flaherty.
For instance, he talked abouthow some of their best lawyers
actually started working at thefirm while they were still in
law school.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
And the value there wasn't just like ticking a box,
it was about immersion.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Precisely it's this idea that just being around the
practice day in, day out, youpick things up, you learn the
language, how to deal withpeople, you get this sort of
innate understanding.
Speaker 5 (02:33):
I think of it as years, so I think the first,
like five or six years, I feltlike I really was just treading
water and that's when I got thiscase.
I tried to withdraw.
We got a wonderful, hugeverdict.
At the time still would be abig verdict of $10 million for
this truck driver, a 50 year oldguy who didn't have much of an
(02:57):
earning capacity and I don'tknow if this is your experience,
but it really doesn't take thebest.
The best cure for an insecurelawyer is a big verdict.
It just makes you feel like youcan do it and that kind of
confidence.
I think that was sort of theturning point for me.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
It's almost like learning by osmosis over time,
something you just can'treplicate from books alone.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
That makes sense, that practical feel.
But they're also realisticabout the timeline, aren't they?
It's not instant expertise, oh,definitely not Joshua Koskoff
mentioned.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
it could take, you know, maybe five, maybe even six
years before you truly feellike you're not just treading
water, before you feel likeyou've got your head above water
.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Okay, so the takeaway for someone listening who's
maybe in law school now or juststarting out it's patience
partly.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Don't expect to be an expert right away, but also be
proactive.
Seek out those chances to learnby doing, even if it means
balancing school and work, likeSean Flaherty suggested.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Right.
Show that capability early.
Commit to the long game Now,once you're in it.
Whether you started early ornot, another thing comes through
loud and clear Mental toughness.
Being a trial lawyer, well, ittakes grit.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Oh, absolutely.
That was a constant refrain.
You cannot be afraid to loseperiod.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
One lawyer, I think, put it very bluntly If losing
one case just crushes you,you're probably in the wrong
field.
Speaker 6 (04:29):
Everyone's a trial lawyer up until about a week out
and I think that's whatseparates trial lawyers from
other lawyers is that last week,where the anxiety and the
apprehensions and the fear of amI going to be able to ride this
bike again?
And once you get in you realizethat's just going to happen and
(04:50):
after 25 years that stillhappens.
How am I going to do this?
And I think for them it's justto face that fear and once you
overcome it a few times, you'restill going to have them.
It's just you're going to knowthat you can overcome them, yeah
you need thick skin.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
You take the hit, you learn from it and you get back
up the next day ready to goagain.
It's just well part of theterritory.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
And what about trial anxiety?
That seems like a big one, evenfor veterans.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
It is.
Jason Leonard talked about thatfear kicking in you know, the
week before trial, that feelingof can I still do this, can I
ride this bike again?
But facing that fear is sort ofthe job description, isn't it?
It really is, and the good newshe suggested is that once you
push through it a few times, youlearn you can survive it.
The anxiety might never vanishcompletely, but you know you can
(05:37):
manage it.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
I'm a young lawyer.
I'm trying my first case.
How do I get prepared?
What do I read?
What do I need to do?
Speaker 7 (05:48):
What do I need to do?
Let me tell you the first thingI do.
I'm going to give you a littlepep talk with younger lawyers.
Remember this it's not aboutbeing pretty, and I don't mean
whether you're handsome or apretty lady I'm talking about.
It's not about perfection inthe courtroom and you want to be
perfect when you're young.
It's not going to be perfect,it's just not.
(06:10):
This is a job that takesrepetitive over over an.
Experience and instincts comefrom making bad decisions and
good, and it starts becomingmore automatic.
You're not going to have thatEarl.
Here's the good news.
You don't need it.
It's not about being pretty.
You know what it's about.
It's about being prepared,having thought through and
(06:30):
having a good game plan andpicking the right words and
phrases, asking winningquestions of the jury, and you
know what else matters.
There's the being prepared andone more thing believing, I was
gonna say your integrity.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Number one thing is if you don't believe it, the
jury's never gonna believe itAbsolutely.
So you walk in God and you gotthat passion, it's gonna go a to
believe it Absolutely.
So you walk in young and if youbelieve it and you've got that
passion, it's going to go a longway towards getting there, amen
.
Speaker 7 (06:57):
You walk in young, but you walk in believing,
passionate and have someintegrity and you know what All
the little sloppiness ischarming because they know you
care, they know you believe andyou came with a good game plan.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
And, interestingly, there's this idea that the
losses themselves can bepowerful pitchers.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Very powerful.
Keith Mitnick spoke about thishow some of the best learning,
the real creativity, comes notjust from the wins, but from
digging into the losses.
Why did it happen?
How do we avoid that again?
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Don't just eat the bruises, as they say, but
actually learn from them.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Precisely Learn, adapt, improve.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Okay, so you're tough .
You're ready to learn from themPrecisely, learn, adapt,
improve.
Okay, so you're tough.
You're ready to learn fromlosses.
What about that very firsttrial?
The advice there was maybe abit surprising.
It's not about being perfect.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Right, keith Mitnick really hit this point hard being
pretty or flawless in court,especially when you're starting
out, it's not necessary, it'snot even expected.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Because those trial instincts they come from
experience right Years of it.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Exactly, Repetition learning from good moves and bad
ones.
You won't have that right away,and that's okay.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
So what does matter then, for that first timer?
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Preparation.
That's non-negotiable.
Have a solid plan.
Choose your words deliberately.
Frame the case effectively.
Do the groundwork.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
And maybe the biggest piece.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Belief Passion.
You have to genuinely, deeplybelieve in your case and your
client.
If you don't feel it, how canyou expect the jury to?
Speaker 1 (08:28):
That makes sense.
But how does that translate fora young lawyer who might feel,
you know, a bit shaky?
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Well, Keith Mitnick had a great take on this.
He suggested that if you walkin prepared and you truly
believe and you show thatpassion, any little sloppiness
actually becomes sort ofcharming.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Interesting because the jury sees you care.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Yeah, they see, you've done the work, you have a
plan and you're invested.
That conviction, that belief,combined with solid prep, that's
the key combination, more thanslickness.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Okay, that's powerful .
So shifting from the courtroomitself to like building your
career foundation.
There was some very practicaladvice there too.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
There was Sean Flaherty, for example.
Really pushed networkingconstantly.
Be social, get out, meet people, talk to people.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
And don't be shy about what you do.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
No, you need to let people know you're a trial
lawyer.
Use the phrase a scream fromthe mountaintop.
You never know where a case ora connection might come from.
Could even be opposing counselsomeday.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Treat everyone well and treat every client.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Like they're your only client.
That was another core rule fromSean Flaherty that dedication,
striving for the best result foreveryone.
That's how you build trust andreputation.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Makes sense.
And what about technology?
It seems unavoidable now.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Absolutely essential.
Jason Leonard observed thatsometimes lawyers resist tech
because they feel unsure abouttheir basic trial skills.
But once those skills solidify,they actively seek out tech
because, well, it makespresenting a case easier and
more impactful.
It's a tool you need now.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Got it.
So network be known.
Dedicate yourself to clientsand embrace the tech.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
That's a good summary .
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Now, another thread running through all this was the
importance of learning fromothers, mentorship and
collaboration.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Hugely important Having good teachers early on.
That was highlighted as amassive advantage.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
And Keith Mitnick pointed out, not everyone gets
that, so there's a sort of dutyto pay it forward, right To
share that knowledge.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Yeah, absolutely, and senior lawyers can play such a
crucial role.
Jason Leonard described themalmost like a psychic security
blanket in court for youngerlawyers, just knowing they're
there for guidance.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
That feeling of backup and this connects to the
bigger picture of collaboration,especially for plaintiff
lawyers.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Definitely, john you still talked about this
particularly in tough casesagainst, you know, big,
well-funded opponents liketobacco companies or large
corporations.
How do they win?
By sharing Sharing documents,ideas, strategies, everything
Working together.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Because working in silos only helps the other side
hide things.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Exactly when lawyers pool their knowledge across
different cases, they can piecetogether the full picture,
connect the dots and expose thetruth.
It's about collective strength.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
That's a really compelling model.
Okay, we also need to talkabout just plain hard work.
Seems like a given, but theyreally emphasized it.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Oh yeah, non-negotiable.
John Flaherty's rule Workharder than you think you need
to always.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
And that ability to handle a heavy load like
juggling school and work earlyon, it demonstrates something
important.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
It demonstrates capacity.
It shows you can handle thedemands.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
And sometimes the toughest cases, the ones that
really push you, are the mostformative.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Right A crucible, as John Ustall put it.
He talked about his first trial, a really complex GM fire case
that took years.
That kind of experience, whileincredibly difficult, it forges
your skills, your persistence.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
And learning can happen in unexpected ways too.
I found John Ustall'sexperience serving on a jury
fascinating.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Me too, realizing, even as a a lawyer, how hard it
was to track the evidencewithout knowing why it mattered
from the very beginning.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
It changed his whole approach to opening statements,
giving the jury that context upfront so they understand the
significance of what they'reabout to hear.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Such a practical insight, gained from a totally
different perspective.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah, Okay.
One last area to touch onLegacy.
For some lawyers there's afamily history in the profession
.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Right.
Joshua Koskoff talked aboutthat pressure following in
well-known footsteps, peoplemaking comparisons.
You know he's not like his dad,that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
That sounds like it could be a heavy weight.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
It certainly can be, but he also framed it as
potentially positive.
Those high expectations canactually be a standard to strive
for, a motivator.
So it's about acknowledging thepast, but ultimately, filling
your own shoes, finding your ownway, your own voice, making
your own contribution.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Okay, wow, we've covered a ton here.
Let's try to recap the corethreads.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
Okay, so starting early that hands-on learning,
building serious mentaltoughness, learning from losses.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Prioritizing preparation and belief,
especially early on, over tryingto be perfect.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Yes, Then the practical stuff networking,
making yourself known,dedicating yourself to clients,
embracing technology.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
The huge value of mentors and collaboration
sharing knowledge, not workingin isolation.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
And underlying it all Sheer hard work, taking on
challenges and learning fromevery experience, even
unexpected ones like jury duty.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Plus navigating legacy, if that's part of your
story.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
What really comes through is that success is an
instant.
It's built.
It takes resilience, effort,learning constantly from wins
and losses, and relying on thewisdom and support of others.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah, it feels like it's about more than just legal
tactics.
It's about building character,serving clients with real
dedication and finding yourauthentic self within a very
demanding field.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Absolutely, which leads to a final thought and
maybe something for you, thelistener, to consider.
In a world that's alwayschanging, with new tech, new
challenges, how will these core,timeless principles preparation
beliefs, that mental grit,collaboration, that essential
human connection, how will theycontinue to be the foundation
for the next generation of trulysuccessful lawyers?
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Something to think about as you navigate your own
path.
All right, here we go .
Are we ready?
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Today we are jumping into a really rich collection of
insights shared by one of ourlisteners.
It's wisdom drawn fromconversations with several very
accomplished trial lawyers.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
That's right.
We've got input here from BrianPanish and Sean Flaherty, keith
Mitnick, jason Leonard, johnUstall and Joshua Koskoff too
Leonard John Ustall and JoshuaKoskoff too and they've shared
quite a bit their experiences,lessons learned you know often
the hard way and some reallypractical tips.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Especially for young lawyers, right, those just
starting out or aiming forsuccess in the courtroom.
And just well, the professionoverall.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Exactly, our goal here is really to pull out the
essential advice you need.
It's about the realities, theactual practice of building a
legal career.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Yeah, facing the hurdles, finding your footing.
This isn't just theory.
Okay, let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Somebody that's going to law school.
They're just getting out of lawschool.
They want to representplaintiffs.
They want to get in theplaintiff personal injury
business.
Sure, what advice do you havefor them?
Speaker 4 (01:03):
The first thing.
I think that's crucial and ishere, but some of our best
lawyers have started workingwith us while they're in law
school.
So you know I started here,like I said, when I was in law
school.
I can go down the list, but Iprobably we have 42 lawyers.
(01:24):
I would say a quarter of them,maybe more, worked here when
they were in law school.
Period of time and hearing itand knowing it innately in you
(01:48):
and learning the language andlearning how to speak to clients
and learning how to deal withpeople and that, to me, is stuff
that, although you're gettingpaid not as much as you'd want
to be at that point in time thefact that you're around it and
learning it is invaluable forpractice later.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
So the first big theme I think that really comes
through is this idea of startingearly, getting your feet wet as
soon as possible.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Absolutely.
Sean Flaherty.
For instance, he talked abouthow some of their best lawyers
actually started working at thefirm while they were still in
law school.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
And the value there wasn't just like ticking a box,
it was about immersion.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Precisely it's this idea that just being around the
practice day in, day out, youpick things up, you learn the
language, how to deal withpeople, you get this sort of
innate understanding.
Speaker 5 (02:33):
I think of it as years, so I think the first,
like five or six years, I feltlike I really was just treading
water and that's when I got thiscase.
I tried to withdraw.
We got a wonderful, hugeverdict.
At the time still would be abig verdict of $10 million for
this truck driver, a 50 year oldguy who didn't have much of an
(02:57):
earning capacity and I don'tknow if this is your experience,
but it really doesn't take thebest.
The best cure for an insecurelawyer is a big verdict.
It just makes you feel like youcan do it and that kind of
confidence.
I think that was sort of theturning point for me.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
It's almost like learning by osmosis over time,
something you just can'treplicate from books alone.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
That makes sense, that practical feel.
But they're also realisticabout the timeline, aren't they?
It's not instant expertise, oh,definitely not Joshua Koskoff
mentioned.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
it could take, you know, maybe five, maybe even six
years before you truly feellike you're not just treading
water, before you feel likeyou've got your head above water
.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Okay, so the takeaway for someone listening who's
maybe in law school now or juststarting out it's patience
partly.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Don't expect to be an expert right away, but also be
proactive.
Seek out those chances to learnby doing, even if it means
balancing school and work, likeSean Flaherty suggested.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Right.
Show that capability early.
Commit to the long game Now,once you're in it.
Whether you started early ornot, another thing comes through
loud and clear Mental toughness.
Being a trial lawyer, well, ittakes grit.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Oh, absolutely.
That was a constant refrain.
You cannot be afraid to loseperiod.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
One lawyer, I think, put it very bluntly If losing
one case just crushes you,you're probably in the wrong
field.
Speaker 6 (04:29):
Everyone's a trial lawyer up until about a week out
and I think that's whatseparates trial lawyers from
other lawyers is that last week,where the anxiety and the
apprehensions and the fear of amI going to be able to ride this
bike again?
And once you get in you realizethat's just going to happen and
(04:50):
after 25 years that stillhappens.
How am I going to do this?
And I think for them it's justto face that fear and once you
overcome it a few times, you'restill going to have them.
It's just you're going to knowthat you can overcome them, yeah
you need thick skin.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
You take the hit, you learn from it and you get back
up the next day ready to goagain.
It's just well part of theterritory.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
And what about trial anxiety?
That seems like a big one, evenfor veterans.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
It is.
Jason Leonard talked about thatfear kicking in you know, the
week before trial, that feelingof can I still do this, can I
ride this bike again?
But facing that fear is sort ofthe job description, isn't it?
It really is, and the good newshe suggested is that once you
push through it a few times, youlearn you can survive it.
The anxiety might never vanishcompletely, but you know you can
(05:37):
manage it.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
I'm a young lawyer.
I'm trying my first case.
How do I get prepared?
What do I read?
What do I need to do?
Speaker 7 (05:48):
What do I need to do?
Let me tell you the first thingI do.
I'm going to give you a littlepep talk with younger lawyers.
Remember this it's not aboutbeing pretty, and I don't mean
whether you're handsome or apretty lady I'm talking about.
It's not about perfection inthe courtroom and you want to be
perfect when you're young.
It's not going to be perfect,it's just not.
(06:10):
This is a job that takesrepetitive over over an.
Experience and instincts comefrom making bad decisions and
good, and it starts becomingmore automatic.
You're not going to have thatEarl.
Here's the good news.
You don't need it.
It's not about being pretty.
You know what it's about.
It's about being prepared,having thought through and
(06:30):
having a good game plan andpicking the right words and
phrases, asking winningquestions of the jury, and you
know what else matters.
There's the being prepared andone more thing believing, I was
gonna say your integrity.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Number one thing is if you don't believe it, the
jury's never gonna believe itAbsolutely.
So you walk in God and you gotthat passion, it's gonna go a to
believe it Absolutely.
So you walk in young and if youbelieve it and you've got that
passion, it's going to go a longway towards getting there, amen
.
Speaker 7 (06:57):
You walk in young, but you walk in believing,
passionate and have someintegrity and you know what All
the little sloppiness ischarming because they know you
care, they know you believe andyou came with a good game plan.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
And, interestingly, there's this idea that the
losses themselves can bepowerful pitchers.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Very powerful.
Keith Mitnick spoke about thishow some of the best learning,
the real creativity, comes notjust from the wins, but from
digging into the losses.
Why did it happen?
How do we avoid that again?
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Don't just eat the bruises, as they say, but
actually learn from them.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Precisely Learn, adapt, improve.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Okay, so you're tough .
You're ready to learn from themPrecisely, learn, adapt,
improve.
Okay, so you're tough.
You're ready to learn fromlosses.
What about that very firsttrial?
The advice there was maybe abit surprising.
It's not about being perfect.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Right, keith Mitnick really hit this point hard being
pretty or flawless in court,especially when you're starting
out, it's not necessary, it'snot even expected.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Because those trial instincts they come from
experience right Years of it.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Exactly, Repetition learning from good moves and bad
ones.
You won't have that right away,and that's okay.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
So what does matter then, for that first timer?
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Preparation.
That's non-negotiable.
Have a solid plan.
Choose your words deliberately.
Frame the case effectively.
Do the groundwork.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
And maybe the biggest piece.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Belief Passion.
You have to genuinely, deeplybelieve in your case and your
client.
If you don't feel it, how canyou expect the jury to?
Speaker 1 (08:28):
That makes sense.
But how does that translate fora young lawyer who might feel,
you know, a bit shaky?
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Well, Keith Mitnick had a great take on this.
He suggested that if you walkin prepared and you truly
believe and you show thatpassion, any little sloppiness
actually becomes sort ofcharming.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Interesting because the jury sees you care.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Yeah, they see, you've done the work, you have a
plan and you're invested.
That conviction, that belief,combined with solid prep, that's
the key combination, more thanslickness.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Okay, that's powerful .
So shifting from the courtroomitself to like building your
career foundation.
There was some very practicaladvice there too.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
There was Sean Flaherty, for example.
Really pushed networkingconstantly.
Be social, get out, meet people, talk to people.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
And don't be shy about what you do.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
No, you need to let people know you're a trial
lawyer.
Use the phrase a scream fromthe mountaintop.
You never know where a case ora connection might come from.
Could even be opposing counselsomeday.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Treat everyone well and treat every client.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Like they're your only client.
That was another core rule fromSean Flaherty that dedication,
striving for the best result foreveryone.
That's how you build trust andreputation.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Makes sense.
And what about technology?
It seems unavoidable now.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Absolutely essential.
Jason Leonard observed thatsometimes lawyers resist tech
because they feel unsure abouttheir basic trial skills.
But once those skills solidify,they actively seek out tech
because, well, it makespresenting a case easier and
more impactful.
It's a tool you need now.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Got it.
So network be known.
Dedicate yourself to clientsand embrace the tech.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
That's a good summary .
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Now, another thread running through all this was the
importance of learning fromothers, mentorship and
collaboration.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Hugely important Having good teachers early on.
That was highlighted as amassive advantage.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
And Keith Mitnick pointed out, not everyone gets
that, so there's a sort of dutyto pay it forward, right To
share that knowledge.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Yeah, absolutely, and senior lawyers can play such a
crucial role.
Jason Leonard described themalmost like a psychic security
blanket in court for youngerlawyers, just knowing they're
there for guidance.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
That feeling of backup and this connects to the
bigger picture of collaboration,especially for plaintiff
lawyers.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Definitely, john you still talked about this
particularly in tough casesagainst, you know, big,
well-funded opponents liketobacco companies or large
corporations.
How do they win?
By sharing Sharing documents,ideas, strategies, everything
Working together.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Because working in silos only helps the other side
hide things.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Exactly when lawyers pool their knowledge across
different cases, they can piecetogether the full picture,
connect the dots and expose thetruth.
It's about collective strength.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
That's a really compelling model.
Okay, we also need to talkabout just plain hard work.
Seems like a given, but theyreally emphasized it.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Oh yeah, non-negotiable.
John Flaherty's rule Workharder than you think you need
to always.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
And that ability to handle a heavy load like
juggling school and work earlyon, it demonstrates something
important.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
It demonstrates capacity.
It shows you can handle thedemands.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
And sometimes the toughest cases, the ones that
really push you, are the mostformative.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Right A crucible, as John Ustall put it.
He talked about his first trial, a really complex GM fire case
that took years.
That kind of experience, whileincredibly difficult, it forges
your skills, your persistence.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
And learning can happen in unexpected ways too.
I found John Ustall'sexperience serving on a jury
fascinating.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Me too, realizing, even as a a lawyer, how hard it
was to track the evidencewithout knowing why it mattered
from the very beginning.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
It changed his whole approach to opening statements,
giving the jury that context upfront so they understand the
significance of what they'reabout to hear.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Such a practical insight, gained from a totally
different perspective.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah, Okay.
One last area to touch onLegacy.
For some lawyers there's afamily history in the profession
.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Right.
Joshua Koskoff talked aboutthat pressure following in
well-known footsteps, peoplemaking comparisons.
You know he's not like his dad,that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
That sounds like it could be a heavy weight.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
It certainly can be, but he also framed it as
potentially positive.
Those high expectations canactually be a standard to strive
for, a motivator.
So it's about acknowledging thepast, but ultimately, filling
your own shoes, finding your ownway, your own voice, making
your own contribution.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Okay, wow, we've covered a ton here.
Let's try to recap the corethreads.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
Okay, so starting early that hands-on learning,
building serious mentaltoughness, learning from losses.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Prioritizing preparation and belief,
especially early on, over tryingto be perfect.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Yes, Then the practical stuff networking,
making yourself known,dedicating yourself to clients,
embracing technology.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
The huge value of mentors and collaboration
sharing knowledge, not workingin isolation.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
And underlying it all Sheer hard work, taking on
challenges and learning fromevery experience, even
unexpected ones like jury duty.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Plus navigating legacy, if that's part of your
story.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
What really comes through is that success is an
instant.
It's built.
It takes resilience, effort,learning constantly from wins
and losses, and relying on thewisdom and support of others.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Yeah, it feels like it's about more than just legal
tactics.
It's about building character,serving clients with real
dedication and finding yourauthentic self within a very
demanding field.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Absolutely, which leads to a final thought and
maybe something for you, thelistener, to consider.
In a world that's alwayschanging, with new tech, new
challenges, how will these core,timeless principles preparation
beliefs, that mental grit,collaboration, that essential
human connection, how will theycontinue to be the foundation
for the next generation of trulysuccessful lawyers?
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Something to think about as you navigate your own
path.
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