#421: Mastering MedTech Influence: The Power of Communication in Quality

In this episode, host Etienne Nichols sits down with Lesley Worthington, an executive coach with a background in psychology, law, and over 20 years in quality and regulatory affairs. They explore the critical, yet often overlooked, role of communication in building a robust culture of quality. Lesley explains that while quality professionals possess deep technical knowledge, they often struggle to be heard because they focus on being clear and correct rather than on making others feel understood. This conversation delves into why traditional training methods fall short and how a shift in mindset can lead to better relationships and greater influence.

Lesley highlights that true influence and buy-in don’t come from simply explaining things well, but from actively listening and making others feel heard. The discussion touches on common pitfalls, such as using excessive jargon, over-explaining, and failing to understand the listener's perspective. Lesley emphasizes the importance of building trust and psychological safety, which allows for open communication and the ability to ask clarifying questions without fear. She shares practical strategies, like paraphrasing to confirm understanding and moving from a "broadcast" mindset to one of curious listening.

The conversation concludes with a look at the limits of traditional training, which often focuses on information over action and fails to address personal habits and emotional intelligence. Lesley describes how her coaching practice provides a personalized space for professionals to think through their specific challenges and discover their own solutions. She advocates for simple, plain language and encourages a shift from fear-based interactions to curiosity-driven ones, underscoring that the core of effective communication is a human-centric approach.

Key Timestamps

• [02:52] - The PR Problem: Lesley addresses why skilled professionals in quality and regulatory roles often struggle to be heard, linking it to their non-direct authority and a tendency to prioritize correctness over relationships.
• [06:34] - The Buy-in Breakthrough: The difference between being understood and making someone feel understood is explored, revealing that true buy-in hinges on empathy and listening.
• [09:34] - Communication Blind Spots: This segment uncovers common, subconscious behaviors that undermine communication, such as using too much jargon, over-explaining, and failing to consider the audience's knowledge.
• [14:17] - The Power of Admitting 'I Don't Know': Etienne and Lesley discuss how acknowledging a lack of understanding can build trust and demonstrate self-awareness, countering the fear of appearing "dumb."
• [16:42] - Fear vs. Curiosity: Etienne shares his perspective on curiosity as the opposite of fear and a powerful tool for overcoming communication anxieties.
• [18:12] - Why Training Fails: The limitations of traditional corporate training are examined, highlighting its focus on information rather than the personalized, action-oriented work required for true behavioral change.
• [25:39] - The Coaching Advantage: Lesley explains how coaching helps professionals solve their own problems and gain clarity by creating a dedicated space for focused thinking and reflection.

Quotes

• "Buy-in isn't about whether people understand; it's about whether people feel understood." — Lesley Worthington
• "Curiosity... I think the opposite of fear is curiosity." — Etienne Nichols

Takeaways

• Shift from Correctness to Connection: The most effective medical device professionals understand that their influence isn't solely based on being technically correct. Instead, they build strong relationships by...

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to the Global MedicalDevice Podcast, where today's brightest
minds in the medical deviceindustry go to get their most useful
and actionable insiderknowledge, direct from.
Some of the world's leadingmedical device experts and companies.

(00:31):
Hey, everyone.
Welcome back to the GlobalMedical Device Podcast.
My name is Etie Nichols.
I'm the host for today's episode.
Today I want to talk about aculture of quality and utilizing
coaching, whether it's fromthe top down or bottom up, how you
can build that culture of quality.
And with us today to talkabout that is this is Leslie Worthington.
She's a certified executivecoach with a uniquely powerful blend

(00:54):
of credentials.
She has 20 plus years inquality and regulatory affairs and
degrees in both psychology andlaw, which I'm particularly interested
in both.
Thousands of hours coachingprofessionals, navigating high stakes
environments because, let'sface it, your work is a high stakes
environment.
She helps smart, capableleaders, especially in qara roles,
communicate clearly, lead withconfidence, and finally be heard

(01:15):
the way they intend.
With Leslie, it's not more.
It's not about more information.
It's about doing the work, thethings that actually make a difference.
So, and whether that's throughpractical personalized coaching,
she helps medical deviceprofessionals build influence, recover
from burnout, which we've seenso much recently.
See the things they're doingthat hold them back even, or maybe
I should say especially, whenthey can't quite put their finger

(01:37):
on it.
So if you've ever walked awayfrom a meeting wondering, why didn't
that turn out or land the wayI wanted to, hopefully this conversation
is for you.
Leslie, thank you so much forjoining us today.
How are you doing?
I'm good, thank you.
When you're introducing me,I'm like, wait, that's me.
Okay, what if, if anybody isnot following you on LinkedIn, I

(01:57):
highly recommend it.
Because, you know, it's funnyinternally, sometimes the question
comes up, is this culture ofquality really something that, you
know, that we should behitting on?
Maybe.
From a marketing standpoint,obviously culture of quality is something
I think most of us understandis important.
But one thing I'll mention iseven the FDA uses that phrase in
the preamble for the qmsr.

(02:18):
There's a culture of qualityexpectation and so on.
So I just, I thought I'd throwthat out there as we kind of kick
this conversation off.
Yeah, it's kind of becomingmore sort of hot topic, mainstream
ish.
And I think maybe, maybepeople are realizing that it's actually
tied to the business's success.

(02:40):
So I think once they clue intothat, then it's like, yeah, yeah,
that's actually the shortcutto a good business is to have this.
This culture, you know.
Why do you think it's funny?
Because intuitively, when wesit down, or maybe I should say intellectually,
if we sit down and thinkthrough it, it makes sense that it

(03:02):
could be a competitive edge tohave a culture of quality and you're
always 1% better or whateverthe case may be.
Why do you think so manyskilled professionals, especially
in whether it's qualityregulatory in the medical device
world, why do you think theystruggle to be heard or taken seriously
or have that kind of bad pr?

(03:23):
A couple of reasons.
Generally, they're not theboss of the people they're trying
to boss around.
So that is very trickydynamics a lot of the time.
So that is a bit of a problem.
And many, I think, defaultbecause they're not the boss of the
people they're bossing around.

(03:44):
They have to somehow makethemselves credible so that people
will listen to them.
And so this is their thinking anyway.
And so they default to beingmaybe clear and correct and probably
a little bit too directwithout noticing or caring possibly
how it's all being received.
They're just on this missionto make sure everyone understands

(04:07):
what they need to understand.
So they're focused so much onmaking sure their company stays out
of trouble.
They haven't really realizedthat their relationships are actually
the best way to.
To make sure their stump.
Their company stays out of trouble.
So they're kind of not eventhinking about the relationship part.
Can you give me an example ofthat direct way of speaking that

(04:28):
is a negative?
Because oftentimes we talk,oh, be more direct.
But it sounds like that couldbe a negative in this situation.
Can you.
Well, there's so much conflicting.
Yeah, there's so muchconflicting advice out there.
And there's like little hacksand like, don't, you know, don't
say this.
You sound weak.
And don't say.
It's like, well, basicallyanything that you say that makes
someone feel like they'rebeing bossed around is too direct.

(04:51):
So it's about shifting your mind.
It's not about really what you say.
It's about how will what I saybe received.
That's what we're thinking about.
And so I can't give you exactwords because it depends on the other
person.
Like, I have three kids and Ican't talk to them the same way.
My middle child will, like,overreact if I say, time for school.
You know, it's like, so youhave to really know who you're talking

(05:14):
to to understand what' to bereceived directly.
And what's going to be like,oh, yeah, okay, sure, no problem,
I'm on it.
It depends who you're dealing with.
And I'd like to just kind ofexpand the aperture of this conversation
because we talk about qualityand regulatory.
I know that's who you focus.
My background is more project management.
But it's the same situationwhere you may not have a direct.

(05:35):
The, the direct reports, theyall dotted line report to your project.
And you're like, how do Ireally get them to move and do things?
So it's really applicable toso many in this situation.
Yeah, you've got to get peopleto buy in.
Right.
Somehow you've got to getpeople to buy in.
And once we start talkingabout influence and persuasion and

(05:56):
stuff, then it gets like,people are like, oh, that's too salesy
and that's too aggressive andthat's too whatever.
But really the ultimate thingwe're aiming for is to get people
to buy in.
And I think what happens isthat we make the mistake of thinking
that people buy in becausethey understand something really
well.
We've done such a stellar jobof explaining this that there's no

(06:20):
possible way they can't buy in.
And maybe we have done a goodjob of explaining it.
We've been clear, we know whatwe're talking about.
We even use plain language, no buzzwords.
It's great.
But buy in isn't about whetherpeople understand, it's about whether
people feel understood.
Yeah.
And that's the part we're not doing.
And how do you make peoplefeel understood?

(06:42):
You gotta listen to them, yougotta have relationships with them.
And so, you know, it's alittle bit counterintuitive, I guess,
because you think.
But, but I've explained it so well.
How could they not see thesense of this?
But that's not what it is.
Yeah, right.
And there's always layers tothese things.
Because I'm gonna saysomething that you're gonna say,
well, yeah, of course, butwhen you.

(07:03):
When they have to beunderstood, so they have to have
been listened to, but theyalso have to have some kind of proof
that understand.
And maybe we can get into thatat some point too.
And that seems like, okay,circular here, but I understand you,
Leslie, But I'm going torepeat this back to you so that,
you know, I understood you as well.
That's exactly it.
Like people.
Because people insist that.

(07:24):
Yeah, no, no, no, they understood.
For sure they understood.
I'm like, that's super.
Do they know that.
That you know exactly what you said?
Do they know that youunderstood and do you know that they
understood?
Like, where's the proof of that?
Because that has to be there,whether it's just a huh, okay, or
paraphrasing something back.
Like, think of.
Of with your partner in life, right?
And you're talking to them andyou're like, he is not listening

(07:48):
to me.
Right?
And you're like, you're not listening.
You never listen to me.
And he goes, yeah, yeah.
Yes, I am.
Yes, I am.
I'm like, oh, yeah, you are.
What did I say then?
So if they can say what wejust said, that's the proof to us
that, that they were listening.
And so, okay, let's take thatinto work.
It's like, well, what do wehave to do?

(08:08):
We have to paraphrase back topeople what they said in order for
them to really feel that weunderstood them.
So we have to kind of gobeyond that, just nodding and start
paraphrasing things back.
And it feels like primaryschool a little bit, but we need
that.
Like, we're all, we're all the same.
We're all.

(08:28):
We just want to be heard andappreciated and understood.
And we just.
If we can just remember that,everything's going to be easy.
Right?
Yeah.
I've actually seen wheresomeone may voice an idea or something
that they would like tohappen, and it's clear that they've
been understood.
So someone recognizes and say,yeah, that's a really good idea for
X, Y, Z. I can totally seethat producing this outcome.

(08:50):
But for these other reasons,we've decided not to do that.
And so that person feelsvalidated, they walk away saying,
okay, this is a great plan,but we didn't even.
We didn't even do your ideaand you're backing the plan.
That's it.
Like, think about, like withkids, right?
They.
If you just let them havetheir say, if you let anybody have
their say, whether you go withtheir plan or not, they just feel

(09:11):
better about it and they'llmore likely go along with it with
a little less kicking and screaming.
Okay, I could spend a lot oftime on this because listening is
so important, but I. I'm surethere are things that we're doing
to kind of cut ourselves offat the ankles.
I hate that.
Maybe hopefully nobody's avisual thinker out there.
What are the hidden thingsthat we do to just kind of undermine
how we're Coming across, itseems like we do everything right.

(09:34):
Yeah.
So this is just a human, humanproblems because we have egos.
So all of this, it's not likerole specific.
It's not just quality.
People that have this, havethese problems.
But the biggest problem reallyis that we're failing to think of
the other person.
That's it.
Right.
Our egos are just in the way.
We're not thinking about whatmatters to them and we're only charging

(09:58):
forth with what matters to us.
And we have to sell whatmatters to us from the angle or lens
of what matters to them.
You know, we just think, oh,we have to do this, it's the law.
Or that's what the standard says.
When the average personprobably doesn't even know what a
standard is.
Right.
So it's like, so then we endup using too much jargon and we assume

(10:20):
this is a big problem.
We assume people know morethan they do.
And that's why this listeningcan really help.
And learning to ask betterquestions, to kind of assess people's
knowledge, but not in ainterrogation sort of way, just in
a, you know, curious, whatdoes this person know?
I think a really commonproblem quality people have is over

(10:42):
explaining things, saying toomuch, using big fat words in an effort.
Again, I said this earlier inan effort to sort of prove their
credibility.
Like, I know what I'm talkingabout, trust me.
Let's just do this, Come on.
Right.
Like that's the feel they'retrying to go for.
But when people don'tunderstand or they find you confusing
because of the words you used,it's hard to build trust.

(11:04):
Like, how much do you trustsomeone who's a little bit confusing?
You don't.
And so if we come across asconfusing, it's really hard to get
that trust being built up.
Another common problem,because we're almost apologetic sometimes
because we're always askingpeople to do stuff that we know they
probably don't want to do.

(11:24):
So then sometimes we mightcome across like we sort of soften
things a little too much andthen make it a little bit unclear.
Especially if we're dealingwith different languages.
We might say, you know, wouldyou mind?
Would it be too much troubleif you did this?
And in another language thatmight, they might not realize that
you're actually asking them todo something or telling them to do

(11:46):
something.
And so the softer we getsometimes the more can unclear it
is in a way.
And so it's a.
You're constantly trying tofind this balance.
Too direct, too soft.
I Gotta be nice.
I can't be pushy, you know,and so, and that, and that, you know,
you have to depend a lot onthe feedback you're getting from
the person.
Have they just done somethingthat makes me think, oh, oh, across

(12:09):
the line, they're closing downa little bit or they're irritated
now.
So you can't just be therewith your broadcast, you know, megaphone.
You gotta be there listening.
Yeah, I.
So there's a couple thingsthat my mind goes to.
I guess as you're talking, I'mthinking about how we can actually
understand people.
And it, the.
There's a phrase that comes tomind that is it doesn't matter what

(12:32):
people think of you.
What matters.
What is what you think theythink of you.
Yeah.
So it's, it's.
I don't actually know what youare thinking right now.
I know what.
Or I have an idea of what youmight be thinking about.
So how do we actually understand?
And I actually have an idea.
I'm going to let you answerthat first because I have so many
other questions too.

(12:53):
So your question is, how do we help?
How do we try to understandwhat they are thinking?
How are we sure that we are onthe right track with what we think
that they.
Yeah.
So this is like what I justdid now, asking you to like, trying
to get clarity of like, whatexactly are you asking right now?
Am I right about myunderstanding of what you're asking?
And that's what you do in real life.

(13:15):
You.
You ask questions to sort of assess.
Have they understood?
I can't even think of a.
Well, that, that example thatwe just played out is a good example.
Right.
It's just like you just ask for.
And the problem is, theproblem is I trust you.
You trust me.
This is a casual thing.
It's easy to ask that question.
I don't feel like anythingbad's going to happen.

(13:37):
You're not going to fire me.
You don't, you know, nothing.
You're not going to feel insulted.
Probably.
But in, in real life, we takea chance if there's not some trust
there, if there's not.
P.S.
safety.
We sometimes just button up.
We feel like we can't askcertain people because they might
perceive my question asquestioning as opposed to just curiosity.

(13:59):
There's two things I think of.
One is we don't want to say Idon't know.
But maybe one, maybe a layerdeeper of that would be.
I don't think I understandwhat you just said.
And that makes, you know, I, Ithink that Makes me feel dumb.
But in reality what's amazingis they're like, oh wow.
He's actually pretty selfaware to say that.
Yeah, yeah.
Like it's like, am I going tobe insulting this person or it.

(14:21):
Yeah, it is really tricky and,but it's not as tricky if there's
trust because then you alwaysget the benefit of the doubt where
there's trust.
And you, you know, if there'strust, the person probably thinks
you're moderately bright andknows what you know and you're just
asking, you know, asking anormal question for clarity purposes.

(14:42):
And I think, I don't knowwhere this fear of questions.
There's just a massive fear ofasking questions.
Yeah, I think it's, it goesway, way back to like our childhoods
and things like that.
I have a friend who is just donot, she does not want to ask questions.
She, she, if you ask her aquestion, it, she is on the defensive

(15:04):
right away.
Even if it's like, what timeare you coming?
Like, it's like every questionis, is feels like an attack of some
kind and I don't know where itcomes from.
Presumably her, her background.
She was, I guess grew up in ahousehold where it was not okay to
ask questions.
That was seen as disrespectfulsomehow or questioning authority

(15:25):
or whatever.
And so there's the problem ofhow to ask questions.
But then a lot of us also haveproblems of answering questions without
like, we just feel like, arewe being questioned right now?
We start getting all shakyabout it.
So to me to avoid all of thatnonsense is to just like work on
the relationship bit and thenit's easy to ask and answer questions.

(15:48):
At Greenlight Guru, we have ateam of what we call medical device
gurus.
And it's kind of a terrifyingjob at first because you have to
sit in front of a customer,particularly the ones who are not
getting the software, notunderstanding what's going on and
you have to answer all theirquestions and they could be a little.
Yeah, most of our customersare very nice, but it's just, you
know, you don't know everything.
So you get in there, it's alittle bit scary.

(16:09):
So I actually wrote a paperabout how to get over this fear and
I came up with this line thatwas, what's the opposite of love?
Is it hate?
I mean, personally, I thinkthe opposite of love is indifference.
What's the opposite of fear?
Is it courage?
Well, no, you can't havecourage without fear.
I think the opposite of fearis curiosity.

(16:30):
And I Could be wrong about it,but it's good for the, it's good
for the paper.
So if you're scared ofsomething, just get curious.
Why, what am I not understanding?
What is the, what is going on here?
I, I, that's what I recommendto ours internally.
I was curious what kind of bounce.
No, and, and a lot of it too,is you have to take the responsibility
of helping people ask questions.

(16:50):
Because sometimes, like, so ifyou ask a question, if, if you are
asked a question and you'relike, oh, my God, I have no idea,
it might not be you.
It might be that the questionwas not a good question and you're
not even sure exactly whatthey're asking.
So part of good communicationand part of the whole question thing
is like, helping them ask abetter question.

(17:13):
So they ask a question, andyou're like, I don't even know where
to start.
So then you ask them aquestion, oh, are you asking about
this or this?
And you try and get them to,you know, be clearer.
Because a lot of the times,especially if it's someone who doesn't
know, like, if they're talkingto your green light guru gurus and
they know nothing, they mightnot even know the right words to
use for their question.

(17:35):
Yeah, yeah.
It's sad that so much ofjoining a new industry is the lingo.
And I know you're a bigproponent of not using jargon.
My dad actually told me we're nickels.
You know, don't use a $5 wordwhen a nickel word.
Yes.
Yeah, that's great, dad.
Anyways, but I'm curious, howcome, how come this is such a problem?

(17:58):
These are professionals whoare well trained.
I assume that we go through.
Are there limits totraditional training or why don't
these leadership courses andthe different things that we go through
lead to those changes that wewould expect?
Any, Any thoughts there?
Well, that's a couple, coupleparts to that question, though.
So the, so the, I think, Ithink a lot of times we.

(18:22):
Oh, I've lost my train of thought.
You're gonna have to pause this.
Okay, so you asked first about.
Yeah.
The limits of traditionaltraining or why.
Well, maybe we back up alittle bit.
I wanted to address somethingfirst before that one.
So something you brought up.
Think about using a big wordor jargon.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay.

(18:42):
I remember Curse of Knowledge.
And so also that kind ofinterchange that we just had.
So leave it in maybe that kindof interchange.
Most people would be like, oh,my God, oh, my God, I sound like
an idiot.
Right.
It's like, I lost my train ofthought because you said a couple
of things and I was like, oh,what should I say first?
So I was thinking it through,then I lost my chain.
And that's normal.

(19:03):
And so we have to normalize,like, being human and sort of take
the edge off, like, beingperfect and being so professional.
And I think we are too uptightmost of the time to have a natural
thing like that.
So Curse of knowledge is oneof the reasons why we screw up.
Because what is so obvious tous, we forget when we didn't know

(19:26):
it.
And we think everybody.
Doesn't everybody know what aKappa is?
483.
I mean, don't we all know that?
Like, isn't that common knowledge?
Right.
And so that's part of it.
We don't think.
And again, this goes back tonot thinking of the.
Of the listener.
We're not thinking, oh, whywould this person know that term?
They probably wouldn't knowthat term.

(19:46):
So maybe I shouldn't use it.
But.
Okay.
Second part of your questionabout the limits of training, traditional
training.
I don't think we should blamethe courses and the training because
there's a lot of goodinformation out there.
But you don't learn from information.
Right?
That's the problem.
You learn from action.
And most courses are aboutinformation, giving information.

(20:10):
And then the learner doesn'treally go beyond that.
Passive, kind of justabsorbing the information.
They don't put it into play.
Traditional training isn'treally thinking about habits, internal
narratives.
It's not thinking aboutemotions and relational things.
And it doesn't.

(20:30):
It doesn't go beyond justalmost like hacks in a way.
Right.
It's just like, here's whatyou should say to sound softer or
nicer.
Here's how you can do this.
Different frameworks forconversations or whatever.
It's just not personalized enough.
And our communicationchallenges are very personal and

(20:52):
very specific.
We want Bob to hit his deadlines.
We want Susan to do what wewant Susan to do.
The operations guy pretends tolisten, and then he does what he
wants to do anyway.
How do I deal with this?
And no one tells me until asmall problem becomes a massive problem.
I don't want to sound too bossy.
I think I'm doing this weirdthing because I have a bit of imposter
syndrome.
You're not going to find anyof that in a course.

(21:14):
Yeah.
You're going to find like, letme get you ready for your big TED
Talk.
Let's.
Let's show you what, howslides should look.
Right.
It's just the, the, thedomain, I guess, of communication
and soft skills is just somassive that all people can do with
course design is just picksomething small and just address

(21:35):
that little thing.
Yeah.
And so that's, I think, the limit.
The limit.
One of the things youmentioned, you, you mentioned that
everybody has kind of aspecific thing that maybe, you know.
Well, you mentioned several.
Bob, you know, doesn't, hepretends to listen, doesn't actually
do it.
And I think, I think we mayhave talked about this phrase last
time we were together, but it,for some reason it brought up the

(21:56):
phrase common sense isn't socommon anymore.
And I don't try to, I don'tmake people feel bad about that because
another phrase that I feellike is appended to it that was really
helpful is common sense isn'tso common because we don't all have
a common background.
And that's helpful to, to keepin mind.
We don't necessarily.
For.
You were talking about thenomenclature and the jargon.

(22:17):
In some cases it can be fun touse that, but it's not if the people
don't understand what you'retalking about.
Exactly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I remember being lectured onceby someone saying, you know, jargon's
real words.
You know, I'm like, yes, yes,I do know.
I've never said it's not.
And yeah, sometimes we shouldbecause it's the perfect shorthand

(22:38):
with people who know it.
Right.
That's why it exists.
And so what?
Yeah.
When you're in your littleworld of quality people, do your
quality speak.
Go to.
Go, go for it.
That's what it's for.
But then know who you'retalking to and know like, ah, I'm
now leaving that world and Inow need to speak like a human.
And there is one, you know,common language for everyone.

(22:59):
And it's just plain language.
Like just use everyday wordsand keep short sentences and you
know, and that works.
And I think it's even moreimportant now because our, our working
is so global and there, thereare so many people that we're working
with who do not speak Englishas their first language.
And so the plain languageagain becomes the, the, the default

(23:22):
language that is understood by all.
So there's no, there's no downside.
I think there's been researchthat even like genius level people
prefer plain language becauseit's easier, it makes you work less
and humans are lazy.
So.
Yeah, well, and I know you dosome coaching and that's that's one

(23:43):
of the big things that you do.
What does it actually looklike in practice?
What's the difference in whatwe kind of talked about and what
you're proposing?
Well, somebody typically comeswith a specific problem.
Sometimes people come to meand they go, oh, I just want to communicate
better.
And I might.
Okay, so the first bit of thatkind of client is like, okay, how

(24:05):
has this showed up?
What made you come here?
Because, because there'salways, there's always a symptom
of this problem.
And so what, what was thesymptom in this case?
And so anyway, they come, theycome with a specific problem most
of the time.
And it might be like, I've gotthe high stakes conversation coming
up with the cfo.
I'm trying to get money for afancy eqms, let's say, and it's a

(24:28):
hard sell and I need to be ready.
So it's like really workingtowards a specific goal like that.
So the coaching begins.
And then for that scenariolike that, the coaching is basically
helping people think.
That's what coaching is.
You're helping people think.
And through that process, theysee their blind spots, they magically

(24:50):
solve most of their own problems.
It's more like a partnership.
I ask questions, they thinkstuff through.
Sometimes I give advice.
But once you start givingadvice, you're no longer coaching.
You're giving advice.
Right.
Coaching is just.
It's just you arrive empty asthe coach and you see what arrives
and then you think together, essentially.

(25:10):
But people do want advice fromtime to time.
So I'm like the hybrid person who.
I will give advice, but I makethem work at it.
Only when they start, I'mlike, okay, all right.
I'm not going to hide theanswers in my pocket, but you know,
I want them.
Because most of the time I'mall about empowering people.
And most of the time peoplehave the answers.

(25:31):
Because what I sometimes do,and this is tricky and nasty, probably
I give advice when they arebegging me, but I give advice I know
they won't like.
And that makes them go, no.
But that made me think ofthis, right?
Because you could tell someoneexactly what to do and they won't
like that as much as they likecoming to the exact same thing all

(25:55):
by themselves.
That's again, just how humans work.
So in the case of coachingsomebody through an upcoming important
meeting like that.
So then it would be helpingthem get clarity on, like, what specifically
they need out of that conversation.
Because a lot of times it's too.
They're like, well, I justneed money for the EQMs.
It's like, okay, well, let'sget specific.

(26:17):
And.
And where's your hard lines?
Where can you.
Where do you have wiggle room?
And just think it's.
It's basically, I'm going tosay common sense again.
Like, it's not rocket science.
It's helping people think.
The problem is we don't takethe time to do that anymore.
Yeah.
And so really, like, in theolden days, you probably could just
get coached at your kitchentable during having conversations.

(26:39):
But now, like, people come to me.
My regular people come to meevery other week, typically.
And that's usually in that twoweek period.
The only time work or regularhome life that they are listened
to.
Ooh.
Yeah.
Which is sad, but true whenyou think about, like, that's the

(27:00):
world we're in now.
And so just that moment topause and think and get clarity,
that's essentially all I'm doing.
So it's, you know, but whenpeople get insights, sometimes it
happens in the session andsometimes it doesn't.
It happens outside of the session.
Like three days later they go,oh, this is what, this is what we

(27:23):
were talking about.
Okay, I get it now.
So.
So it's not like this, like, wow.
Moments that happen.
It's just a typical average conversation.
But just helping people thinkthrough and consider options.
Yeah.
Because a lot of times people just.
They're stuck in their littlebox and it's hard for them to think
of options and possibilities.

(27:44):
So I consider myself a goodwriter and.
Or a writer.
I should just say a writer.
I consider myself a writer andI write a lot.
And that has been one of thebiggest tools for me to help solidify
my thinking.
I use that phrase sometimes.
I don't even know who I'mborrowing this from.
But I know what I thinkbecause I write.
I don't know what I write andI don't know what I think until I

(28:04):
write.
And there's something that Iwant to ask you about, and that is
maybe somebody can't usecoaching or directly with you or
someone else.
Are there things they can do?
And I want to use.
I want to ask you about thisbecause I.
So I. I have someone new who'sstarting to work for me.
So I thought I need to write my.
About me and my how to workwith Etienne document.
I have a document that issuper old.

(28:24):
I'm like, all right, I'm gonnago write it.
And I went to AI.
This is my confession time.
I'm like, I will write it for me.
And I looked at him like, man,no, that's terrible.
I'm gonna do.
I'm just blank slate, do it myself.
And it's very.
When I'm actually slowly the,the rusty wheels are turning and
I'm like, oh, that is kind ofhow I do things this way and that

(28:45):
way as I write it out versusjust having AI tell me what I should
think about myself.
What are your thoughts?
That was a lot.
I think if everybody, I thinkif everybody started picking up a
pen and grabbing a notebook,then coaches wouldn't even be needed.
Right.
I really think we're quitecapable of sorting out our own problems.

(29:08):
And I do think you're a goodwriter, by the way, at the beginning.
But it's painful, isn't it?
I'm with you.
Like I'm with you.
I don't even, even if I'mwriting like a thing for LinkedIn,
I kind of have a vague idea ofwhat I might be writing about.
But it changes as that thinggets written and it's like, oh, this
is what I'm writing about.
Ah, interesting.

(29:29):
And that's what happens toowith the thinking, oh, this is what
I'm thinking about.
I wonder what's behind that.
And so I love.
Have you ever heard of morning pages?
Yes.
Oh, what is her name?
Cameron.
Cameron, I think is the last name.
And it.
So the idea was from a book.

(29:49):
It's over there somewhere inmy room.
Is it Cameron?
Look that up while I'm talkingthe artist's way.
Morning pages.
Julia.
Cameron.
Yes.
Julian Cameron.
Yeah.
So the.
So I am the word artist and meis not a thing.
There is no creativity artistdrama, nothing like that.
I was in a bookstore back inthe day when there were books in

(30:12):
bookstores and it wasn't allonline and there was a book on the
floor and I'm Canadian, we putshopping carts back where they belong.
We pick books off the floor,we do these things.
And the artist's way, I'mlike, oh.
So I put it on and I looked atthe back of the book.
I'm like, oh, what's this?
Opened up the book and then Isaw this morning pages thing.
I'm like, what is this?
So this is about 30 years ago,I think, give or take.

(30:36):
And so I'm like, let me justplay around with this.
So I started writing morningpages and the idea is you just write
for 20 minutes or three pagesis the.
Was the idea.
I just set a timer for 20minutes and I have done this every
single day for 30 years andyou just write.
And if all you write is thisis so dumb, I have nothing to say,
there is nothing, you know,then that's fine.

(30:56):
Some, if you write yourshopping list, that's fine.
If you write like whatever.
And what happens is it justlike clears away the cobwebs and
it gives you so much claritywhether it's to start your day off
well.
And you know, sometimes I doevening pages, not morning pages,
depending on my thing, butit's just that act of like sorting
stuff out.
And I really do stronglybelieve that the pen in the hand

(31:19):
is different from the fingerson the keyboard.
I agree.
Yeah.
So in terms, go going back tothe coaching conversation, I think
if you just start writing, youmost of the time will solve your
own problems.
You start to see other options.
Even if you write a questionto yourself, what's going on or what
matters or what are the options?

(31:41):
Just coming out and writingthat down on the paper will give
you the answers.
Yeah.
And you know, I think that's great.
And I, I, I agree.
I love the morning pages.
I've gotten a little bit awayfrom that.
For a period of my career Iwas dedicated and I'm now it's, it's
more sporadic.
But things were a lot betterwhen I was.
I can't believe you've donethat for 30 years.
That's fantastic.

(32:02):
One of the re.
I'll just give one trick thatI felt like because I agree even
just saying this is so dumb ishelpful, but overcoming that blank
page, one of the things that Ifelt is getting out of your head
and into your body.
I mean literally like usingyour senses, thinking, man, this
music is so loud.
And just write that whatever.
Right?
Yeah, just write what'slooking, what's out the window or

(32:24):
oh, I'm writing with the bluepen today.
Normally I write with a blacklike it can be ridiculous, it doesn't
matter.
And then you can try writingwith your non dominant hand and you
can try like all kinds ofdifferent things.
Writing in the margins,writing not in the margins and all
of this weird stuff.
Stuff that makes you so tunedinto yourself.
Yeah, I just think it's really valuable.
And I think one of the thingsthat with my clients is that, you

(32:50):
know, I have like pre sessionforms for them to think, what do
I want to discuss today?
What's my goal for the session?
And then I have like very,everything I have is very simple.
Very simple.
Like note taking forms whereit's basically they carry, they could
carry a notebook around withthem if they wanted to, where they
just notice things.
They write down what they notice.
Like, oh, that phone call was weird.

(33:12):
I don't know why it was weird,but it felt weird afterwards, you
know, whatever.
And this awareness just liketo start get.
And it's all habits, right?
Just get in the habit of this awareness.
And I've got one guy who he.
He writes these notes and thenhe shares them with me.
And you don't have to sharethem with me, but he likes to share
them with me.
And, and you can see himsolving his problems in the notes.

(33:35):
He's like, oh, I realize I didthis, I did this last week.
So same thing, same problem,same person.
I wonder what's going on.
You can just see all that thinking.
And it's like with my clients,the people who take the reflecting
and the note taking seriouslyget results.
The people who don't go aroundand around and around and they wander

(33:56):
and they're waiting for somemagic and they don't.
So it really matters toreflect and just go, what's going
on?
Or that's interesting.
You don't have to answer the question.
You just have to go, that's interesting.
That was different.
That was good.
That was bad.
Yeah, be an observer of yourself.
Yeah, that's it.
We don't do that.
I want to mention somethingthen I want to ask a question.

(34:17):
We'll get back to a fewthings, so be prepared.
This may.
I'll try not to make this amini TED talk, but I'll stop as well.
I'll try to.
One of the things I'm thinkingabout or couldn't help but think
of was the mediums of communication.
And I'll just run this theoryby you and you can react to it or
not, we can move on.
But for example, texting.
When I look at texting, Iactually treat that almost as this

(34:39):
is probably thought to thought.
As strange as it may be, ithas not gone through the filter of
my mouth.
I might not actually say thesewords out loud, but this is what
I'm thinking.
Same thing might be with aLinkedIn message or a LinkedIn post.
Not that there's thinking, butthey seem to be.
I communicate slightlydifferent through different mediums,
whether it's the comments on aGoogle Doc even versus an email.

(35:02):
An email tends to be a littlebit more formal for me, even though
I try to stay human.
All of these things have aslightly different communication
slant.
My Slack message, et cetera.
I don't know if you have atheory or thought about that and
building your influence.
And if we go back to that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think it's prudent for acompany or a team to have a very

(35:24):
clear communication plan interms of how are we going to communicate
different things.
So certain things should be inwriting, by email.
Certain things are okay for Slack.
Certain things must be in, youknow, whatever phone calls.
I think having a plan for thatis important.
But I think.
I don't know if I've gotreally fully formed thoughts about

(35:46):
this.
I think that we have to bemindful of the channel that we're
using.
Yeah.
And think.
Because I'm.
I think we had a littledialogue about.
I don't know if I responded tothis, actually, but you made a comment
about your use of exclamation mark.
Oh, I did reply.
I did reply.
Because then I saidexplanation marks, which I think

(36:07):
could be a thing.
But.
But so, but.
But in exclamation marks.
Some people are like, why isshe so mad?
It's like, I'm not.
I'm excited.
You know, and so.
And so when things are outloud versus with a face versus on,
you know, on paper, you haveto be really, really mindful of how

(36:29):
it could be perceived.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so you have to think more.
You have to not just be sortof off the cuff.
You have to think, should Iphone, should I text, should I email?
What's the right thing to doright now with this person and this
situation?
Yeah.
So you're just always beingvery intentional about every bit
of communication you do.

(36:52):
Yeah, when I write.
Used to, I had a.
A weekly newsletter and when Iwould write that, I would think to
myself, I need to edit.
Edit or write however you wantto look at that for three different
people.
One for me, I'm just writingmy morning pages.
I'm doing my thing.
And I might cut off the thisfeels dumb or the blue pin part.
And now I'm into the meat.
And that's what I may.
So I write for myself first,then I write for my friends, the

(37:14):
people who actually like my writing.
But then I also edit for my enemies.
Not that I have any enemies.
Yeah.
What are they gonna haveproblems with?
Exactly.
We could probably stand to dothat a little bit with our professional
writing and our SOPs, for example.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The first thing that came tomind right then, though is sort of
generational differences inespecially like, I feel like young

(37:40):
people maybe who are used totexting and tiktoking and that sort
of way of are, are they don'thave the same sort of filter mechanism
that older people have.
And then I'm actually losingmy filter again as I get older too,
because it's like, life is too short.
I'm just gonna say it, youknow, but.

(38:00):
But I think.
And so, you know, at aworkplace where you've got people
in their 20s and people intheir 60s, that it also is about
knowing the audience.
And it's like, how's the bestway to reach this young person here?
Are they going to read the email?
Probably not.
They're not used to readingfor more than seven seconds in a
row.
So, you know, let me thinkthat through.

(38:21):
Well, and I'll add somethingto that too, because I recently came
across, well, someone and Iwere talking about the culture map,
which I haven't read yet, butthey were explaining high context
cultures versus low context cultures.
And I think that's probablynot even just regionally, but psychographically
or across industries, across,you know, generations, like you say.
I like.

(38:42):
Personally, I love all the details.
I want to know all the context.
And maybe someone else from aCEO standpoint is like, give me the
high level and what you got todo about it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah.
And knowing that, that's aboutknowing the audience.
So, so when I'm coachingsomeone and we're talking about how
am I going to approach thisCFO for money, it's like, well, how
does this guy make decisions?
Gotta know that.

(39:02):
How does he like his information?
How does he like, should yoube having a phone call?
Cause maybe this guy doesn'tlike one on one, like face to face.
Yeah, you gotta know all that stuff.
And that's part of thethinking through of coaching.
Like, and what's your plan forfinding out what you don't know?
Because a lot of the times,like, I don't.
How do I know?
Well, what's your plan?
Let's think of how you'regoing to find out what's what the

(39:23):
missing bits and pieces ofinformation are.
And that allows you to prepareproperly for the best chance of success
in this whatever high stakesconversation is coming up.
Yeah, I think that's right.
I think that's, that's a goodway to look at it.
Okay.
The question I was going toget to was some people may be thinking,
oh, you're talking about a lotof different tactics and so on.
I thought this was aboutculture and I.

(39:45):
One of my definitions ofculture, for me, because it is a
slippery subject.
I like Seth Godin's, the wayhe describes it, culture is people
like us do things like this.
And that's kind of how I lookat what is your company and how.
How do you.
You kind of define your own.
I had a CEO that told me, youdon't go into a company and you love

(40:07):
the culture, and the culture'sjust raining down on you.
You're just dancing in the rain.
He's like, no, you are the rain.
Kind of like when you're intraffic, you're actually not in traffic.
You are the traffic.
You're part of it.
So.
So the culture is part of your job.
If these are the things, ifthis is the kind of workplace you
want to live in or be in, thisis a big part.
Your job is.

(40:27):
Is to maintain and start thiscultural effect.
What.
What are your thoughts?
Yeah, culture is in my.
In my sort of definition of culture.
It's, It's.
It's the.
The behavior.
It's the value.
Well, I mean, it's thebeliefs, values, mindset, and behavior,
and the behavior is whatreflects all of this.
So, like, we're.

(40:48):
We make a beeline for behavior.
We need you to do this.
Do this thing.
And we go, we have to think,oh, wait, we've got to make sure
everyone's got the samemindset here and the same beliefs
and the same values.
And, you know, we don'tcontrol a lot of that.
A lot of times there is anexisting culture, so you're not going
to be like, oh, okay, we'regoing to build a quality culture.

(41:09):
We're just going to plunk itin here.
It's going to be magic.
No, every company already hasan existing culture, so you have
to be aware of that.
And then you have to buildthis quality culture on top of it.
And really, it's about the mindset.
And so do we change ourmindset after a PowerPoint presentation?

(41:31):
No.
Right.
We change.
It's just a slow thing, and ithappens person by person, conversation
by conversation.
And so, you know, people cometo me, they're like, I need to improve
my quality culture.
It's like, well, how much timedo you have?
Because you're going to need acouple of years, you know, because
we're talking about people andwe're talking about beliefs and so.

(41:53):
And trust and all of that stuff.
And so really, culture reallyis about the relationships and.
And I'm trying to bring itback to you saying, you are the traffic,
you are the rain, you are the.
But it's like your behaviorsare the culture in a way.
Right.

(42:13):
If we took it down to theperson, the specific person.
I had an issue and I knowwe're close on time, so apologies
for this.
So I, I had a projectmanagement course where I was an
accidental project manager andthey were, they sent me to emergency
trans training, so to kind ofgive me my engineering a lobotomy
so that I could make decisions quickly.
And one of the, the trainerlooked at me, they said something

(42:34):
in the.
And.
And I guess I made a face orsomething, but they said, you need
to understand the politics andembrace the politics of your organization.
And she looked at me and said,you don't like that?
Out of 40 people, she singledme out.
And I'm like, I don't like it.
Why would, why would I want tobe a.
You know, have to understandand play politics?
And she said, if you don'tunderstand the politics, if you don't
embrace them, you're not goingto be able to protect the people

(42:56):
and help the people who don't.
So I'm curious what yourthoughts are, because we don't like
the playing politics thing.
No.
How can I build influence?
And what, what's the, what'sthe way there?
Yeah, I, I've had a couple ofclients who like, push back when
I make suggestions of kind oflike feels a little bit manipulative.
Some of the things that I'm suggesting.
It feels very politicky.

(43:17):
But you have to realize thatit's kind of how you frame it because
influence isn't like.
Influence starts with empathy,not with force.
Right.
And so we have to rememberthat, like with the quality culture,
with trying to get people tothink this way.
We're not like.

(43:37):
I don't think of it beinginfluential as the same as trying
to convince somebody.
There's no pressure associatedwith it.
It's mainly aboutunderstanding what the other person
needs and giving it to them.
To me, that's what politics is.
So influence or politics evenis an exchange.
So I want you to approve thespending for my new EQMs.

(44:02):
And my job is to figure outwhat I can give you in exchange for
that.
So to do that, I need to knowwhat matters to you.
Right.
So I probably need arelationship with you.
What do you care about?
What keeps you up at night?
Night?
What do you need?
And believe it or not, we allneed pretty basic stuff.

(44:23):
So this is sort of where itstarts feeling a little bit manipulative
and playing politics.
But we all need to feel heard.
Sometimes people need the last word.
Sometimes people need to feelto be right.
Sometimes people need to win.
Fine.
Figure out what each of thepeople you're dealing with needs

(44:44):
and give it to them.
Now, when I suggest thispeople, that's so sneaky eminent.
It's like, well, okay, you cancall it what you want, but for me,
it's like, what's the end goal?
It's for the greater good here.
I'm not, like, tricking peopleand trying.
I'm using what I know abouthuman nature and human behavior and

(45:06):
going, oh, yeah, we do getmore cooperation from people if they're
happy and we give them whatthey need.
So maybe somebody wants theirego stroked.
That's important to them.
What's the harm if I do that,if that ends up giving me what I
need?
Maybe a good question.
I mean, we should be able toinfer it, I would expect, especially
with the examples that you've given.
But what would be theconsequence of not getting.

(45:31):
Not actually going through anddoing this?
Well, then people don't feel heard.
They don't feel that you get them.
They.
They feel like, why should I cooperate?
You don't.
I don't even like you becauseyou show.
You've given me no reason tolike you.
You've given me no reason.
You know, it to me, it's likeyou're just.
Your goal is to break down the resistance.
The resistance.

(45:51):
The resistance is comingbecause they're not getting what
they need.
So your job is to find out,what do they need?
And sometimes that takes awhile to figure it out.
But when you study someone fora while, like, most people just want
to be appreciated.
Even the guys at the top, ormaybe especially the guys at the
top, they feel so overworked,so misunderstood.
There's so many priorities andpressures and competing pressures

(46:15):
on them, and maybe they justneed someone to say, man, you're
doing a great job.
Like, oh, your plate is full.
Maybe that's all they need.
Right?
And that's sometimes enoughfor them to go, I like you.
What do you need again?
Yeah, here's the check.
You know, honestly, that's because.
Because people are human.
And we forget, I think, thatthe people in power at our companies

(46:39):
are also humans.
I think we forget that theyrespond to the same things regular
humans respond to.
They want to feel understood,they want to feel heard.
They want to be appreciated.
That's it.
Yeah.
One of my favorite responsesto an email is hua.
And my wife, actually, whenshe wants to get on.
On my good side, she justrespond with hu, which is heard,

(47:02):
understood, acknowledged.
Just three letters, and it's set.
So nice.
Okay.
Yeah, we need the screensaverwith that.
With that.
Because that is.
If we could just rememberthat, we'd all be set.
It would be easy.
Yeah.
Right.
A lot of professionals, I feellike, are quietly burning out.
You know, there's that phrase,a lot of professionals die at 26,

(47:25):
and they're not buried tillthey're 65.
And that's.
And I don't.
And I. I don't know if that'sstill the case or not, but I would
imagine this burnout, maybe itshows up differently with quality
regulatory folks.
I have posts where they're.
They're hiding in the cubiclesbehind the stacks of paper that they're
trying to approve.
But.
But how.
Have you seen that?
And how.
I would imagine a lot of whatyou do helps people overcome this.

(47:48):
So I know there's a.
Multiple questions in there.
Yeah.
I have a lot of people thatwhen people come to a coach, it's
because they're in a crisis ofsome kind.
And a lot of people come to meat the start of a new position, a
new role, a new job entirely anew job, because they don't want
to muck up.
Just like they've.

(48:08):
They're just coming off ofusually a burnout situation, possibly
multiple burnout situations.
And they're like, I do notwant to repeat whatever this infernal
pattern is that I haven'tfigured out.
And so I need support as I gothrough the first, you know, three
to six months at this new job.
So they're aware of it.
And I think, again, like,dealing with burnout comes back to

(48:34):
clarity again.
And trying to understand,like, what went wrong.
Right.
What went wrong.
So, honestly, sometimes, like,I call myself a communication coach
or a leadership coach, but Ican't tell you the number of times
that the coaching sessionstarts with, like, I don't even know
why I'm doing this job anymore.

(48:54):
Like, I really.
It's not fulfilling or it'sjust so frustrating.
And so that conversation doesnot necessarily mean they're gonna
leave their job.
It just means, like, okay,let's figure out what's not aligned
here.
Right.
So.
And it's.
So then it's learning, like,what do I need to do differently
to.

(49:14):
To feel better here, to avoidthat burnout?
Feel like maybe I need to bebetter at setting boundaries.
Maybe I need to learn how tosay no.
Maybe my imposter syndrome isso ridiculous that it's just draining
me every day, and that's whyI'm feeling burned out.
Maybe I need mindset work.
Yeah.
And so, you know, could lookburnout, could look like anything.

(49:36):
Most of the time, I thinkburnout looks like just, like, flat.
Like you've lost your interest.
You're, like, just going towork, getting the paycheck and hoping
for the best.
You just.
You've.
You.
You've almost, like, surrendered.
Yes.
Like, ugh.
Yep.
Yeah.
If you.
If you had one takeaway forthe audience after this conversation,
what would that one takeaway be?

(49:57):
1.
The one thing that you wouldhope they would think of in months
and years to come.
Okay, I have to give two.
I have to give it.
Okay.
Okay.
So.
So one, I think.
And we covered this many timesin many answers today.
We have to think of theaudience, the other person, the person

(50:18):
we're speaking to.
Okay.
We have to change our perspective.
We have to think.
Like, we have to not say,right now, we're saying, why isn't
my message landing?
It's so clear.
That's what we're thinkingright now.
Right.
Like, I can't be any clearer.
I'm really clear.
I'm using simple words.
It's good.
Leslie would be thrilled with me.
But why isn't my message landing?

(50:39):
We had to change from thatviewpoint to, what does the listener
need to hear in order for mymessage to land and be understood
the way I want it to be understood?
So it's just like pausing fora second, putting yourself in the
other person's shoes andgoing, what do they need to hear
right now?
And the other thing is, keepit simple.
Just meaning familiar to the audience.

(51:00):
So, yeah, go ahead, use jargonif it's a.
If the audience knows it.
But don't use buzzwords, though.
I take a strong stand onbuzzwords because they're unclear.
Because, like the wordholistic, for example, you mean something
when you use holistic.
I probably mean something else.
So if there's a debate over aword, why is it there?

(51:21):
No, it just makes things confusing.
So just keep things reallysimple, because that's the universal
language and.
Yeah, that's it.
That's my only advice.
Keep it simple.
I don't know.
Again, I'm doing a terriblejob attributing quotes today, but
one of my favorites is thebiggest pro.
One of the biggest problemswith communication is the assumption
that it has happened.
Yeah.
So, yeah, yeah, I agree.

(51:44):
That's.
That's true.
And I think most quotesactually are mis.
They're.
They're not misattributed.
It's probably the right way to think.
So I'll just say it's not me.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Einsteinhasn't said all those things that,
yeah, that's, that's.
One of my biggest hang ups too.
But anyway, yeah, that sounds good.
It's been really fun.
I really appreciate the conversation.
Leslie, where do you.

(52:04):
I know you have some newthings cooking up, so I don't know
if you want to point people indifferent directions, we'll put links
in the show notes.
But where, where do yourecommend people reach out and find
you?
Honestly, at this point, justmy email list.
Okay.
I have this, you know, in myemail list.
I have, I, I think high value emails.
I try not to sell too much inmy emails and so I think that's a

(52:26):
good starting point for people.
And then through my emailthey'll learn about anything else
that's going on in my world.
So I think that's probably theeasiest route.
Okay.
And those of you listening, Ihighly recommend you follow Leslie
on LinkedIn.
She's very active and veryopen about her thoughts and opinions
and you can get a lot of justinsight out of it.
And I'll always be in thecomments or I'll try to always be

(52:47):
in the comments.
I sometimes miss things, butshe's one of my favorite people to
follow on LinkedIn, so highlyrecommend that.
Thank you for being on the show.
We will let you all get backto it.
Until next time, everybodytake care.
Thanks for tuning in to theGlobal Medical Device Podcast.
If you found value in today'sconversation, please take a moment
to rate, review and subscribeon your favorite podcast platform.

(53:07):
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