December 3, 2021 • 39 mins
Charlie Webb is the Founder and President of Van der Stahl Scientific, a medical device packaging and texting machine provider. He also hosts the popular Podcast “SPOT Radio” (sterile packaging on track). Charlie earned his BS degree in Management at the University of Redlands and completed the medical device development program at the Andersen graduate school of management at UCLA. Charlie is a “lifetime” certified packaging professional “CPPL” certified through the institute of packaging professionals as well as a “Six Sigma Master Black Belt”. As a member of a scientific review board, he co-developed micro-surgical devices that broke away from conservative innovation models. Charlie has been in sterile device packaging for 26 years and has been involved in numerous FDA and ISO audits as a regulatory advisor.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Latin MedTech Leaders podcast, a
conversation with MedTechleaders who have succeeded or
plan to succeed in LatinAmerica. Please subscribe on
your favorite podcastingplatform. Apple Podcast,
Spotify, Google Podcast. AmazonMusic is teacher Tune in iHeart
Radio, Pandora or these Todayour guest is Charlie Webb .
(00:23):
Charlie is a six Sigma master,black belt, patented inventor
and medical device packaging.
Girl, I didn't know there wassuch a thing, Charlie,
but Charlie is the founder andpresident of Wander Style
Scientific and Medical DevicePackaging and testing machine
provider. Charlie has been insterile device packaging for
(00:46):
25, 26 years and has beeninvolved in numerous FDA and
ISO audits , uh, as aregulatory advisor. So, Charlie
is great to have you here inthe show. Welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Thank you so much for having me. It's a great
honor to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Awesome, Charlie. So let's start talking about your
involvement with Latin America.
Charlie, how is it that you gotconnected with the region from
a personal professional level?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Well, you know, like a lot of you as companies , um,
we developed a relationship ,uh, with Mexico. Um ,
primarily, you know, there's anadvantage right when you're
next door neighbors , um, toenter into Latin America , um,
because there's a certainamount of crossover in terms of
culture. Um, the culturaldifferences between ironically,
(01:30):
Brazil , um, and Mexico arequite different. And so , uh, I
guess , um, the MexicanAmericans are used to us. We're
used to them, and we have , um,a very good relationship. And
because of the proximity forlogistic reasons and so forth ,
um, you can imagine, you know,Mexico is , um, is a great ,
uh, choice for us for medicaldevice manufacturing. Um, but
(01:53):
you know, I've , we've, we'veworked , uh, with several , um,
countries , uh, in LatinAmerica , uh, Chile, Argentina
, uh, um, and, you know, we,we've struggled along with them
as they are sort of reachingout to offer products to the US
and also looking at being sortof a partner , um, with the US
(02:14):
in terms of developing medicaldevices. You know, that I think
one of the biggest challengesfor Latin American countries
that are wishing to work in theStates is there is kind of a
disconnect between regulatoryrequirements and trying to
bridge that gap has become achallenge for these companies.
Um, the FDA has , uh, mandateson how medical devices must be
(02:36):
made, obviously that areentering into the US airspace,
we'll call it. And , um, butwith iso , uh, the
international standard , um,that obviously , uh, when they
can conform to iso, it makesthat bridge into the US market
, uh, better. But principally,you know, we are helping a lot
of Latin American , uh, uh,companies are develop a , a
(02:58):
sterile packaging processthat's commensurate to the high
levels. And we have a process,the ISO , uh, 11 6 0 7 , and
that's the requirement forgetting a sterile device , um,
into the hospitals and clinics.
And so that process has becomemuch more robust this year ,
um, as of last year actually.
(03:19):
And so now a lot of , um, uh,countries are struggling to get
on board and to become ISOcertified . And so we help to
kind of bridge the gap to say,Hey, it has to be done this
way. And , uh, there can bechallenging because obviously
there's cultural and managementstyle difference that we have
to , um, address.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yes. Good , Charlie.
So let's talk about some trendsthat you are seeing in Latin
America, political, economic ,uh, disease trends that are
relevant to our discussiontoday.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Well, you know, the , um, uh, in fact, I was just
researching this morning , um,you know, looks in, in Latin
America , um, there's a hugeincrease in , uh, sort of
non-infectious diseases thatare affecting , uh, Latin
American cancer, cardiovasculardisease. And , um, these are
gonna represent somewhere inthe order of 80% of the
(04:10):
mortality. Um, so obviouslygetting into preventative ME
medicine and devices that helpprolong life. Um, for instance,
arterial stents in the US havebeen a game changer , um, for
people who have had , uh,blocked arteries, say 50 years
ago. Um, the diagnosis wasn'tvery well, but now we can get
(04:30):
in and we can open up arteriesand we can shore 'em up with ,
uh, arterial stents. And it'sbeen , uh, a life change
because a lot of , um, dietsnow are , uh, a changing
worldwide , um, changing , uh,outcomes in terms of cancers.
Um, and so now , uh, I guess alot of other countries that
(04:52):
historically weren't faced with, um, uh, obesity and those
sort of issues that sort of theheadwater to cancer and
cardiovascular disease are now, uh, struggling to get up to
pace in terms of treatmentoptions. Um, you know, now that
McDonald's are in every cornerworldwide , you know , you can
grab a a bag of french frieseverywhere. I mean, you even
(05:15):
see it . I've spent the last 30years traveling to , uh, 20,
yeah, about 30 years nowtraveling to Japan. I've spent
a great deal of time in Japan,and you can see that the , uh,
the people are getting tallerthere , um, taller ,
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Yeah .
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Wow . I remember when I used to to go, there
were , um, the Japanese werefamously shorter than people,
but because of the change indiet , um, you, you're starting
to see even countries who holdvery closely to a cultural
diet. Um, and now we'readopting , uh, a western , uh,
some might even call anAmerican , uh, palate diet .
(05:53):
And as a result of that , uh,those are growing . So Latin
America , uh, is now faced witha similar , uh, problem where ,
um, we, we have to look at ,uh, you know, how we can
develop devices , uh, for LatinAmerica, as well as what are
the export, you know, options .
So those are one of the trendsthat we see , um, that's
happening in Latin America, inthe United States. Um , the
(06:15):
trends, as I mentioned before,you know, we're starting to get
more robust regulatoryrequirements to get a device
in. So a lot of , uh, countrieswishing to enter into the
United States are having tomeet these robust , um,
regulatory hurdles. So itreally pays. In fact, you know,
it , it's, it's interestingthat in the United States, we
(06:35):
are in a little bit of a , um,human resource drought, you
might say, on the engineeringside. We, you could go into any
clean room in North America orany medical device , um,
company in the United Statesand Canada, and it's very
likely there'll be severalIndian nationals that are
working in the engineer team.
So what the Indians, on apersonal level understood, was
(06:59):
that science engineering , uh,mathematics has become an area
of study that has helped them.
And you can see the similartrend in Latin America where,
you know, no longer can Mexico,for instance, be the low dollar
, um, place to come and getsomething made. I mean, at one
point, you cap out in terms ofbeing a contractor of other
(07:23):
people's intellectual property.
So the goal and the hope forMexico and Latin America as a
whole is to be able to developthat intellectual resource
where they're developing theirown technology and not just
brokering or assembling in mostcases. Um, you know, you ask
about our political climate,it's hard not to look into the
(07:45):
new , our border crisis, right?
So, you know what our bordercrisis is telling the, the
world, and this is somethingthat Latin America really needs
to look at. I mean, why isthere such a movement , um,
from humanoids from south tonorth? And the answer is pretty
clear. It's lifestyle, right?
We all want a better lifestyle.
(08:06):
But the interesting part, I,I'm on a camp where several
other people are on the samecamp, is our goal isn't to , to
close the walls on Mexico. Um,we do have a problem with the
Mexican border where we cannotjust bring everyone in the
world because , uh, itcollapses an economy, right? So
that's an unfair way to enterinto a country. No one is
(08:28):
arguing that. But what it'stelling us is that a better way
for Latin America, certainlyMexico, and this analog, would
be to develop a China model, anIndia model, where they first
become the contract packagesfor US products , uh, not
medicine, but US products ingeneral. Um , no matter how you
(08:49):
wanna spend it politically,there's a low cost labor pool
south of our border. That's whywe export , um, assembly. Uh,
and logistically it's so muchbetter. It , it's so surprising
to me, why are we shippingcontainers from China when we
have a economic , uh, dieconomy that would allow us to
be able to do this in Mexicoand South America? So , uh, but
(09:14):
I think a lot of it, there's apushback I think in, in Latin
America where it's like, Hey,we, we've got things to sell as
well. We have the intellectualresources to make our own
product. And , uh, I thinkwe're, we're almost in a little
bit of a, a stalemate right nowin the case of Mexican. They've
, um, although , uh, theMexican , um, uh, connection
(09:34):
with the United States, I thinkis becoming much stronger. But
here's how the evolution works.
You , you're roughly in my agecategory there. So we all
remember that when we getthings from Japan , uh, as a
child , uh, in the sixties,Japanese products were just of
very low quality. It's hard forus to imagine a low quality
(09:56):
Japanese product. When you lookat reliability indexes of a
Toyota, some of the highestquality , some of the , um,
they're using Kaizen and SixSigma , um, manufacturing me
methods and their , um,brokering, exploiting, if you
like, their cultural , um,makeup to be able to make
incredible , uh, products. Sowhat we see , and now we see it
(10:19):
in China, and , and Japan'squite worried because when we
think of Ja uh , China over thelast 10 years, we don't think
of stellar beautifully built.
We're thinking lowest bidder ,you know, the low fruit stuff.
So that's where , um, we cansee these paradigms that can
change what I believe is gonnahappen. At one point, Mexico,
(10:41):
which has been the, the lowdollar provider of, of labor,
is going to get thoseintellectual resources sort of
developed. And what's gonnahappen is they're gonna be
known for better products.
There's a long way to go , forsure, but I think that is the
trend that India is in asimilar model, and we're, you
(11:01):
know, approaching a 10, youknow, billion something , uh,
world population right now. So,you know, it's surprising that
, um, we're there, you know,again, looking at some of the ,
the , uh, internationalmonetary fund says that , uh,
you know, the world economygrew by 5.2% in 2021 emerging
countries , uh, or somewhere inthe order of , um, 6%. And
(11:24):
Latin America is at 3.6. SoLatin America has some catching
up to do. And there's, I mean,since colonial times for South
America, there's challenges,there's even , uh, geographical
challenges, there's politicaldifferences . And so it's, it's
challenging for there to bethis sort of , um, European
(11:45):
Union model. It has to comeultimately, I think, and I
think that's where thedirection ultimately is gonna
go. There has to be that sortof a collective of united
countries that are going tocodify these quality measures
and allow only the best thatLatin America has to offer to
(12:07):
gate through a portal to therest of the world. That's what
I believe needs , needs tohappen.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Well said, Charlie.
Yeah, I like those comments.
The Pacific Alliance issomething that , uh, is
addressing that exactly whatyou're , um, discussing here, I
think is, is the, the onlyinitiative that really will
place Latin America as a , as aworld class , um, place. I
mean, at least the fourcountries that are part of the
(12:33):
Pacific Alliance , uh, tradeblock , uh, uh, a world class
trade block in the world, whichwill make about , uh, 200 and
something million people, andit will , uh, be considered
about the eighth economy in theworld. And just for listeners
to make sure we're on the samepage here, the, the Pacific
Alliance is the trade blockthat Mexico, Columbia , Peru,
and Chile have put together.
(12:55):
And these are the only OECDcountries in Latin America. And
the good news is that the tradeblock is expanding with Panama
and Costa Rica. Costa Rica justgot accepted into the OECD ,
uh, a few weeks ago, which isgreat news. And, and, and , and
these are countries that arealigned with international best
(13:17):
practices, internationalpolicies, and, and , uh,
they're open for business. So Ithink , um, yeah, well ,
Speaker 2 (13:24):
I think, you know, a lot of times, you know, Latin
America is marginalized for,you know, capability. Um, I
mean, when you're looking atMexico, Columbia, Chile and
Argentina represent the largest, uh, economy. They have a ,
um, uh, somewhere in the fourorder of $4.25 trillion. Um, I
(13:44):
mean, the same thing withIndia. We, we sort of
underestimated what India cando. And I think India 10 years
from now is going to have acompletely different meaning.
Obviously, China is in a, in avery , uh, sort of a time of
flux. Uh, so these things arehaving much quickly than they
used to. These were usually on25 year , uh, sort of
(14:06):
timelines, and they were gonnasee things happen much more
quickly. Um, and who getsinvolved? I mean, I think we
saw with the EU how theshakedown went . Uh, some
countries , uh, they wanted toparticipate, they didn't wanna
participate. Some they wantedin some, they regret putting
in, I mean, there was someissues in terms of Greece and
so forth. So, you know, we ,um, there's gonna be a shift
(14:27):
with that alliance as well. ButI , I really think in the, in
the interim, the companies thatare willing to start to get up
to speed in terms of worldprocesses are gonna make that
transition much easier becauseeven though there will be a
requirement in South Americafor, for quality and , uh,
(14:49):
there'll be a value system inall of the , uh, need to put
together in order to gate theseproducts with the quality that
the world requires. Now, thereare a lot of companies , um,
are getting heads up on this,and it's important that they
do. I mean, I would encourageany , um, medical device
manufacturer in Latin Americato start the process of , um,
(15:10):
getting an FDA 1345designation, or , um, uh, I'm
sorry, an ISO 1345 designationand working towards that
quality standard. Because whenyou, when you start working
towards these quality standardsand you peek into the United
States, I mean, a lot of , uh,countries , um, still look at
us as , uh, sort of thestandard of, of care in terms
(15:33):
of devices . Although I wouldargue that the EU now , um, has
, uh, with the UMDR , hmm , yep, UMDR has, has driven these
requirements beyond , uh, whatthe US is doing. And a lot of
companies in the US are havingthe same struggle. We're
struggling to become , uh,compliant to that new , uh,
European standard , uh, orvalue system. And although
(15:54):
we're very close , um, you canimagine on , on less developed
countries working under adifferent model , um, have to
really get up to speed quicklybecause the world is moving
very fast. And this , again,you know, our population is
exploding. We need to providegood cogent care to , uh,
billions of people in order tobe able to perform this on the
(16:16):
magnitude that's needed. Youknow, the, the good news, the
bad news about , um, what we'vedone is we've done an amazing
job worldwide of creating alifestyle that supports the
procreation of humans. The ,uh, proliferation of , uh, food
stuffs . We've done an amazingjob with that. But like every
species of animal , um, we growto the food supply. So the food
(16:39):
, food supply is big, shelteris, is there. And so we
continue to grow, but now wehave new challenges. I mean,
none of us can argue with thepandemic that we have,
infectious disease issues thatare gonna blossom again. We
certainly have not seen thelast of that. Um, I think if
anything that was just a quickpeek in to what could walk ,
could come , uh, somethingthat's airborne, that is much
(17:01):
more deadly , um, woulddevastate the world. And so we
have to be positioned , uh,worldwide. We all have to be on
the same page, obviously, forus to meet these challenges.
And I think , um, somecountries are doing a better
job than others, but when wetry to work , um, with some of
the companies , uh, thathistorically in Latin America ,
(17:23):
um, it's our own on don't bethis somewhat colloquial , um,
they were behind in what ourrequirements would be, and we
had to help bridge that gap.
Um, but, you know, in fairness,there , at the starting gate,
oftentimes, and they're one , Imean, they have, some of the
products that are coming , um,uh, from Latin America are
amazing devices. I mean,they're doing , um, respirators
(17:45):
in, I believe Brazil is , uh,is huge , right ? Um, tons of,
of very unique, very , uh, uh,well-built devices that would
benefit the world. And they'rebeing , uh, firewalled by the
regulatory , uh, hurdles thatit , to get these devices , uh,
in distribution. So obviouslythe goal is to bridge that
(18:08):
intellectual gap. Um, the , theability to do quick deploy and
to build these products in ,uh, Latin America , um, is
quite proven. Uh, I mean, ifyou look at consumer goods ,
um, even coming outta Mexico ,um, you know , the US has moved
several plants. Uh,Freightliner Ford has a , there
(18:28):
so many factories that are downthere. But when you look at the
management core there, it'sprincipally , uh, Americans.
And so what needs to happen isthat they need to take this
model as the Japanese did, andultimately the Chinese, and
realize that, you know, we haveto have the intellectual
(18:48):
resources first and not gohanging fruit of how many
shovel pole folds of productcan you get out the door.
That's not a , a strategy thatgrows a company, and it's
certainly not a strategy thatthat builds a nation, for sure.
Hmm .
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Well said , Charlie.
Yeah, yeah. So let's talk aboutspecifics in Latin America.
What countries will youconsider are the manufacturing
hubs in Latin America? Um,Mexico, Costa Rica, any other
country that we can talk about?
Yeah , I
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Mean , Costa Rica and in Mexico is where we are
seeing , um, uh, there they'reprobably 10 years a , uh, ahead
of , um, uh, you know, Cheerlain Argentina, in , in terms of
my , of what I've , uh,experienced. You know , again ,
a lot of it has to do withlogistics. You know, proximity
makes a difference. Um , and so, uh, we also have a better ,
(19:41):
uh, cultural connection. Youknow, if you were to take an
American and a Canadian in apub and you're drinking beer
together, it'll be an hourbefore you realize who's
Canadian and who's American.
We're so close in terms of whowe are. I mean, when I travel
abroad, are you American or areyou Canadian? I mean, we're
almost a thing now. If you aska Canadian, they'd be like, no,
we're different. And you askAmerican, no,. When you
(20:04):
look at, you know, the , again,the regulatory differences for
us to be able to send throughtheir health ministry, we, we
have hurdles with a com , witha country that we almost
exactly share a value systemwith that we almost exactly
exactly share televisionlanguage. Everything you can
imagine when there's a languagedifference and a stronger
(20:25):
cultural difference, that thosebarriers become very , uh,
real. And some of 'em , whichare much more subtle is the
barriers between an Americancompany or Americans with ,
say, Argentina or Chile, orBrazil or Columbia versus
Central America or Mexico.
(20:47):
Mexico . We're , we're muchcloser , um, to understanding
each other by virtue of usbeing closer together. So, you
know , I think that that's oneof the challenges as you go
deeper into South America,you're losing , um, proximity
and you're, you're losing someof that cultural connection
that we've developed , um, by,you know, a century of our
(21:10):
connectivity with , uh, withMexico. Um, we also have, you
know, through the MLA Dore ,uh, through the , uh, um, NAFTA
at one point , um, we had , uh,the ability to sort of grease
the skids in terms of how wetrade with Mexico. So an
encouragement to work withMexico, but there really
(21:32):
wasn't, it wasn't politicized.
It wasn't incentivized for usto work with, say, Argentina.
So as a result of that, andalso when you get into deeper
political difference fromArgentina and the United
States, it becomes much moreproblematic. Um, those
political difference havealways been a struggle. And
when you're struggle whenyou're trying to import
products , um, from a , uh,country that is, is vastly
(21:56):
different than the value systemwhere the, the prevailing , uh,
backbone political structure,it's very difficult to do that
with Mexico. Um, the , uh, thepolitical difference is mild
enough, you might say, for usto be able to overcome that ,
uh, for us to work with 'embecomes much more challenging ,
uh, with Argentina, forinstance. So , um, even
(22:17):
Columbia , uh, to a certainextent. So I, you know, the ,
um, the , the, the realchallenge , uh, again, you
know, moving forward is for usto somehow bridge the cultural
gap, which is, is fairlyobvious that that needs to
happen and to sort ofmainstream , um, what it means
to work with these othernations, because it, it would
(22:39):
seem very, for the averageAmerican company, would seem
quite odd to trade withColumbia, for instance , um,
which would be odd for us, youknow what I mean? So , um, we
have a hard time, and althoughI wouldn't say necessarily that
Americans are nationalistic ,um, you know , uh, or
xenophobic, but I do believethat we do have a reluctance to
(23:00):
work with , uh, things that areforeign to us. I mean, there's,
I dunno if you watch TheSimpsons , um, uh, one of the
episodes was, it was funny whenthey were selling Falafels,
they had to rename them crunchpatties to be more acceptable
to Americans, . So ,uh, I think there's another,
another one there where he wasbringing home tacos to , uh,
(23:20):
Mr. Burns, and he said, I toldyou, no ethnic food. You know,
so it's , um, Americans are ,um, not as international in
many ways, despite us beingsomewhat advanced in a lot of
ways. We tend to look inward asAmericans. Um, we look at us as
the gold standard when we seethings that aren't the same of
(23:42):
us. We're uncomfortable with us, uh, as you know, we're
famously struggling , uh, still, uh, you know, hundreds of
years into , uh, working withother , uh, nationalities and,
and races. We still strugglewith it. We should go on the
other end of this by now, sothat, that mild xenophobic
(24:03):
vista that Americans have, it'sunfortunately up to the
exporter , uh, these othercountries to be able to, you
know, recreate a vision ofnormalize it, if you like. Um,
when you look at , uh, uh, youknow, state of California
through their chamber , thestates Chamber of Commerce runs
(24:24):
, um, ads in other states to totalk about California talk ,
talk about it until it becomesnormal to wanna visit
California. And similarly, youknow, we, you have to have some
sort of a campaign underwrittenby a nation or a group of
nations be able to, I mean, ifyou go to a , a , the trade
show, the medical device andmanufacturing trade show, which
(24:47):
we hold out , uh, here, it'scoming up in , uh, August this
year , um, if you, about everyother Booth is another state
that's encouraging Californiacompanies to move to work with
them . So they're trying to ,um, talk about the benefits of
working with, say, Texas , uh,what are the economic benefits?
What are the cultural business, uh, benefits, what are the
(25:09):
lifestyle benefits for youremployees? What is the
intellectual resources that youcould expect to have if you
were to work with that? So,other countries obviously have
been doing this for some time.
Uh, there's a , uh,international pavilion
typically at these , um, tradeshows, and you can visit and
talk to them. Typically, thoseare to have the discussion
about exporting products orworking with them in some way.
(25:32):
So it's nothing new. This hasbeen going on 20, 30 years that
I've observed. Um, but I thinkthere needs to be a bigger push
through other media channels,not just the B2B industrial
side. Um, we almost have tonormalize these relationships ,
um, to the rank and file , uh,to the average Joe on the
street, if you like. We allneed to understand that, you
(25:55):
know , uh, I mean we , uh, uh,there was a survey about 10
years ago, and they said thatthe average , um, high school ,
uh, graduate couldn't identifyin America, couldn't identify
Europe on a world map, what . So , you know , we're
very different than , um, and,you know, I don't know if
(26:16):
that's a testament to pooreducation or again, if it's
that just sort of lack ofinterest on things outside of
your zone of interest. So, youknow, we have to, it is up to,
again, these countries , um, tobe able to, or in Latin America
as a whole, to be able tonormalize , um, to be able to
broadcast the story, understandour culture. We wanna work with
(26:39):
people that we know. I mean,when we're dealing with, I I, I
work with a group of people. Imean, most of us are on
LinkedIn now, right? If you'regoing to LinkedIn and you
develop connections, that is aplace, it's the Facebook of
Commerce. It's a place for usto develop a relationship that
we can parlay thatrelationship. After we
understand that person, whatthey offer, we can now parlay
(27:01):
that relationship into abusiness relationship. So
LinkedIn has been a very, veryimportant to that. So I think
we should all take a page outof LinkedIn's story and say
that, well, if the , if theflow of commerce means let's
first develop a relationshipthat we feel comfortable with,
and then let's take thatrelationship once we understand
(27:22):
who you are and what you do andwhat your value system is. And
then let's talk about business.
So that I think, is the duty ofLatin America moving forward,
is understand us as a cultureof people, our capabilities ,
um, what our goal is, what ourvalue structure looks like,
what our infrastructure lookslike, and then let's get busy
(27:43):
and do business together. So Ithink that's gonna be really
the challenge moving forward.
Maybe not so much of achallenge. It's certainly the
duty moving forward, I believe,of Latin America in order to
really be the president of theWorld War Market. That's
certainly Latin America hopesto gain.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Agree, Charlie? Yes, yes. Um, you are right on point
in the case of Columbiaspecifically, that is of
course, the country that Ifollow the most. Uh , that's
where I focus most of myefforts, and that's where I'm
from. I see the Colombiangovernment pushing a lot on
what they call a newer sharingstrategy, trying to bring, you
(28:21):
know, during the Trumpgovernment , uh, the issue with
China became a very hot topic,and a lot of companies were
reevaluating their Chinastrategy , uh, manufacturing
strategy. So they were tryingto, the common government was
trying to position the countryas a, as a great substitute to,
to , uh, um, to China. So theyhave this strategy called neo
(28:43):
sharing strategy, and theystarted doing ads and, and ,
and meetings all over theUnited States trying to bring
companies back to LatinAmerica, to Columbia . And ,
uh, because at the, at the, atthe beginning of nafta, there
was a big push to domanufacturing in Mexico, and
then China came along and , uh,people started going to China.
And now we have thisnearshoring , uh, uh,
(29:07):
um, initiative , uh, coming inin that , in America. The other
thing is that , um, For LatinAmericans, Mexico is part of
the region, is part of LatinAmerica. It's actually , uh,
when you go to school in LatinAmerica, I , I was taught in
high school in Columbia thatMexico was, central America was
(29:30):
part of us, but in the usMexico is North America. Yeah .
It has a totally differentconnotation, . So it's
like a , a like a , like aNorth American fellow country,
even though they speak adifferent language, but they're
North America and we share somany things in common. Um, um,
(29:51):
I mean from the , from the USstandpoint, yeah, Mexico used
to be , um, used to ownCalifornia. They used Nevada,
the , all this . So Mexico iskind of part of the American
history. Um, so it's probablyeasier to, to relate as an
American relate to Mexicorather than to Columbia
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Lot . A lot of , um, Mexicans , um, where, when
California was part of Mexico,they still refer , refer to it
almost jokingly. Yes . AltaCalifornia.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Yes. Agreed . Yes.
.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
So as , as in Alta California myself, you know,
it's funny because there , ifyou're a southern Californian,
I mean , uh, uh, you can seeI'm a Dutch guy, right? By
looking at me. Um, most of usare from German descent where
Europeans, Irish and Scottish.
And so , uh, you know, what'san American mean? But , um, you
know, it's a question I guessof geography , uh, you know,
(30:44):
versus language, you know, asgeography. Certainly Mexico is
a, is a North American nationin our vista, but , uh, in
terms of culture , uh, we seethe much more Latin American,
obviously. But , um, you'reright, I do think that because
they're, they're our next doorneighbor. They're part of , um,
this continent. Uh, then weobviously look at 'em as sort
(31:06):
of , uh, a distant cousin, andobviously have a
very different route becausethey're made of the same
people. And , um, and thenthere's Puerto Rico, you know,
we have that , uh, that littlepiece that we have to look at
where, you know, we are, are atone point is , uh, Puerto Rico
gonna be, you know, the 51ststate? What's gonna happen
there? You know, we can't , wecan't bring, can we bring in a
(31:28):
, um, uh, a piece to theAmerican pie that , uh, isn't
native , uh, speaking English.
A lot of challenges like thatthat make , um, the movement
of, of goods and people , uh,uh, challenging. But you're
right. Um, it's kind of a grayarea in Mexico, but it's, and
maybe that's why, you know, asyou say, it's probably easier ,
um, uh, to deal with because ,uh, they , they feel very much
(31:51):
our neighbors, most of usvacation down there. Uh, and as
I say, if you're a SouthernCalifornian , uh, like my wife
and I are raised here, but ,uh, she's German, I'm Dutch and
, and Irish , um, but no oneknows how to make a better taco
than my wife does, because ifyou're , if you're a
Californian, you're Mexican. Imean, when Ira was raised in
San Bernardino, and , um, Ithought I was Mexican until I
(32:13):
was about, you know, 12 yearsold, because all of my friends
were Mexican. So we we're veryintegrated here. And so as a
result of that , um, we're usedto, there are friends, our , we
know 'em, they're , uh,relatives oftentimes. Um, so
it's, it's something that , uh,is much easier for us to deal
with. But when you talk about,you know, past the Panama Canal
(32:36):
and beyond, things start tochange for us. You know, it's
funny how , um, there's sort ofa zeitgeist of an era when it
comes to countries. Now I'm oldenough, I'm 62 years old, so I
remember Columbia meaningcoffee, you know, the Colombian
coffee, everything, the bestcoffee in the world, coffee,
(32:56):
coffee, coffee. And that was oncommercials. But then as you
move into the eighties,Columbia meant the best
marijuana you can get inCalifornia, . So that's
where things become a littlebit tricky, is that depending
on the age of the person,whether they're a baby boomer,
a millennial , uh, uh, a GenXer, they're gonna have a
(33:18):
different view of a regionbased . Great
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Point ,
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Guys , when they were, they were raised. And so,
you know, we hear Columbiandrug lords, I hear, yes ,
Columbia
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Coffee , Netflix is not helping much . No ,
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Exactly. Right .
Speaker 1 (33:32):
So
Speaker 2 (33:32):
I think it's important to, you know, to
remember that whether we likeit or not, we have the human
rhythm of people with theirprejudice. Call 'em what you
like, but these are prejudice ,um, maybe not even so much
prejudice. It's more, it's moreof a cultural understanding
that they have of a nation. Andthat is going to change. I
mean, right now, but China usedto just mean bad merchandise to
(33:56):
us now. It means a politicalproblem trying to take over the
world. Now they're , you know ,and cheap product. So they've
got a long ways to go in orderto change what I would call a
very challenging PR problem forChina right now. So I think we
all have to understand howpeople see what their worldview
(34:17):
is, and for us to understand,you know, how can we better
shape, not spin, but how can weshape the story of our nation
to where , uh, we address theproblems that we may have in
the past? Let's don't ignore'em. Let's, you know, let's not
forget what the world may seeus as. Let's work with that.
Let's try to reshape again, notto respin. Let's reshape that
(34:41):
who we are . And that is theentryway, the
coming into . Yes .
Yeah . I mean, we have to havethat gate to come in, and
there's a certain amount ofthings that we, we have to do
in order for us to be accepted,you know, worldwide, you know,
the US has , um, if when Itravel to Europe, sometimes I,
(35:02):
I almost wanna put a Canadianflag on me because everybody
thinks Americans are loud andobnoxious, and so I tend quiet,
you know, but there's a ,there's always truth in these
little beliefs. I mean, anytimeyou go , um, worldwide, you can
always hear a loud group ofpeople. It's Americans, right?
Yeah . So always , yeah ,
Speaker 1 (35:19):
I agree . So
Speaker 2 (35:20):
We , um, we have kind of an image that , um, is
warranted and it's a , it'sbehavior, but, you know, maybe
we should, maybe we need tore-spin our, our story that
we're just exuberant happypeople. Maybe that's PR problem
. They're
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Happy people , by the way . They're very
friendly, very , very friendly. Yeah . I mean ,
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Worldwide, I think they're the friendliest people
for sure. So, but we do, Ithink , um, in the case of, of
countries and, and coming out,you know, we do have to address
the potential of xenophobia,how , um, how a culture, and
particularly in the UnitedStates, we're very slow to take
on other cultures. You know, wewe're much more comfortable
(35:57):
with crunch patties than Flos.
And that's our problem. We, wehave to, you know, we have to,
we're still a burger and frynation there , really. We talk
about America being the meltingpot. Um, but that's not really
the case. I mean, certainly inEurope , uh, uh, that's much
more of a case or in, in bigcities in the United States.
But we're still, and , and, youknow, I don't have a problem
(36:17):
with that. I, I believe , um, Iwas very frustrated when Europe
changed into the euro from theunique monies when I travel ,
because I love the uniquenessof a country. And I, and what
I'm saying is, I don't believeanyone should detune their
culture in order to fit in witha world commerce. I'm just
(36:37):
saying that make your yourculture palatable, to a
world , um, market , and tomake sure that, that you allow
people the opportunity to getto know you. So I think, you
know, with a , the PacificAlliance, the , the challenge
may be coming out of the gateis an introduction to the world
(36:58):
and what's capable, what are ,what are the fantastic things
that are happening? How can wehelp? Those are the sort of
things that are really gonna beasked , I think is the
headwater moving into the worldmarket.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Excellent. Charlie , I love your comments very wise,
by the way. And so Charlie,we're close to the end of the
show, and the question I alwaysask my guests towards the end
of the show is, what would beyour muscles of wisdom? What
would be your words of wisdomif you had the CEO of , uh, a
US company , uh, looking atLatin America as a place to do
(37:32):
clinical trials, commercializemedical technologies or
manufacture devices? So whatwill be, what would be your,
your, how would you summarizeyour wisdom to him or her?
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Well, you know, I think , um, really you're ,
we're seeing a lot moreattendance , um, before we see
a trickle of attendance tothese world trade show . The
trade shows in the medicaldevice industry. Um, and they
would come in, they would shakehands, meet a few people, they
would take a , a few notes andthey would retreat quickly back
to their desk. I think really,in order to understand the
(38:02):
market you're gonna sell, justlike any relationship, the
relationship needs to have ahigher level of understanding.
I would encourage someone whois a, and we've seen other comp
, uh, companies have , havedone this strategy, is to stay
in the United States , uh, oryour market, your targeted
market , uh, for a month'stime. Visit vendors, visit,
take tours of facility , um,find out who, how clean rooms
(38:26):
are configured, what are thechallenges in the US market,
because I think it's, it'sprobably not a , a great idea
to try to enter into a marketwith already fraught with
challenges , um, when , uh, ofjust that connection from one
country to another until youunderstand that the challenges
that we have domestically. Sowhen you understand what the US
(38:49):
companies, medical devicemanufacturers are up against in
terms of regulatory hurdles ,um, you know, right now we're
in the middle of a , uh, humancrisis, a human talent crisis.
So how are, how are thesecompanies , uh, managing those
, um, challenges? And when youlook at it from the vista of a
medical device , uh,manufacturer in the United
(39:10):
States, it makes you much moreempathetic on how your
approach, what your marketingstrategies are gonna be coming
into the us . So forgetting allabout the cultural differences,
the , the regulatory issues ofcoming in, let's pretend your
company is a US company, andyou have to start that business
now. That is gonna give you thedeepest amount of insight, in
(39:31):
my opinion.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Perfect. Charlie, thank you so much for being a
guest in our show. I lookforward to being in touch. I'm
sure listeners got a lot out ofyour wisdom, . I
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Hope so . Thank you so much for having me. It's a
great pleasure.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
What was that.
Welcome to the Latin MedTech Leaders podcast, a
conversation with MedTechleaders who have succeeded or
plan to succeed in LatinAmerica. Please subscribe on
your favorite podcastingplatform. Apple Podcast,
Spotify, Google Podcast. AmazonMusic is teacher Tune in iHeart
Radio, Pandora or these Todayour guest is Charlie Webb .
(00:23):
Charlie is a six Sigma master,black belt, patented inventor
and medical device packaging.
Girl, I didn't know there wassuch a thing,
but Charlie is the founder andpresident of Wander Style
Scientific and Medical DevicePackaging and testing machine
provider. Charlie has been insterile device packaging for
(00:46):
25, 26 years and has beeninvolved in numerous FDA and
ISO audits , uh, as aregulatory advisor. So, Charlie
is great to have you here inthe show. Welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Thank you so much for having me. It's a great
honor to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Awesome, Charlie. So let's start talking about your
involvement with Latin America.
Charlie, how is it that you gotconnected with the region from
a personal professional level?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Well, you know, like a lot of you as companies , um,
we developed a relationship ,uh, with Mexico. Um ,
primarily, you know, there's anadvantage right when you're
next door neighbors , um, toenter into Latin America , um,
because there's a certainamount of crossover in terms of
culture. Um, the culturaldifferences between ironically,
(01:30):
Brazil , um, and Mexico arequite different. And so , uh, I
guess , um, the MexicanAmericans are used to us. We're
used to them, and we have , um,a very good relationship. And
because of the proximity forlogistic reasons and so forth ,
um, you can imagine, you know,Mexico is , um, is a great ,
uh, choice for us for medicaldevice manufacturing. Um, but
(01:53):
you know, I've , we've, we'veworked , uh, with several , um,
countries , uh, in LatinAmerica , uh, Chile, Argentina
, uh, um, and, you know, we,we've struggled along with them
as they are sort of reachingout to offer products to the US
and also looking at being sortof a partner , um, with the US
(02:14):
in terms of developing medicaldevices. You know, that I think
one of the biggest challengesfor Latin American countries
that are wishing to work in theStates is there is kind of a
disconnect between regulatoryrequirements and trying to
bridge that gap has become achallenge for these companies.
Um, the FDA has , uh, mandateson how medical devices must be
(02:36):
made, obviously that areentering into the US airspace,
we'll call it. And , um, butwith iso , uh, the
international standard , um,that obviously , uh, when they
can conform to iso, it makesthat bridge into the US market
, uh, better. But principally,you know, we are helping a lot
of Latin American , uh, uh,companies are develop a , a
(02:58):
sterile packaging processthat's commensurate to the high
levels. And we have a process,the ISO , uh, 11 6 0 7 , and
that's the requirement forgetting a sterile device , um,
into the hospitals and clinics.
And so that process has becomemuch more robust this year ,
um, as of last year actually.
(03:19):
And so now a lot of , um, uh,countries are struggling to get
on board and to become ISOcertified . And so we help to
kind of bridge the gap to say,Hey, it has to be done this
way. And , uh, there can bechallenging because obviously
there's cultural and managementstyle difference that we have
to , um, address.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yes. Good , Charlie.
So let's talk about some trendsthat you are seeing in Latin
America, political, economic ,uh, disease trends that are
relevant to our discussiontoday.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Well, you know, the , um, uh, in fact, I was just
researching this morning , um,you know, looks in, in Latin
America , um, there's a hugeincrease in , uh, sort of
non-infectious diseases thatare affecting , uh, Latin
American cancer, cardiovasculardisease. And , um, these are
gonna represent somewhere inthe order of 80% of the
(04:10):
mortality. Um, so obviouslygetting into preventative ME
medicine and devices that helpprolong life. Um, for instance,
arterial stents in the US havebeen a game changer , um, for
people who have had , uh,blocked arteries, say 50 years
ago. Um, the diagnosis wasn'tvery well, but now we can get
(04:30):
in and we can open up arteriesand we can shore 'em up with ,
uh, arterial stents. And it'sbeen , uh, a life change
because a lot of , um, dietsnow are , uh, a changing
worldwide , um, changing , uh,outcomes in terms of cancers.
Um, and so now , uh, I guess alot of other countries that
(04:52):
historically weren't faced with, um, uh, obesity and those
sort of issues that sort of theheadwater to cancer and
cardiovascular disease are now, uh, struggling to get up to
pace in terms of treatmentoptions. Um, you know, now that
McDonald's are in every cornerworldwide , you know , you can
grab a a bag of french frieseverywhere. I mean, you even
(05:15):
see it . I've spent the last 30years traveling to , uh, 20,
yeah, about 30 years nowtraveling to Japan. I've spent
a great deal of time in Japan,and you can see that the , uh,
the people are getting tallerthere , um, taller ,
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Yeah .
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Wow . I remember when I used to to go, there
were , um, the Japanese werefamously shorter than people,
but because of the change indiet , um, you, you're starting
to see even countries who holdvery closely to a cultural
diet. Um, and now we'readopting , uh, a western , uh,
some might even call anAmerican , uh, palate diet .
(05:53):
And as a result of that , uh,those are growing . So Latin
America , uh, is now faced witha similar , uh, problem where ,
um, we, we have to look at ,uh, you know, how we can
develop devices , uh, for LatinAmerica, as well as what are
the export, you know, options .
So those are one of the trendsthat we see , um, that's
happening in Latin America, inthe United States. Um , the
(06:15):
trends, as I mentioned before,you know, we're starting to get
more robust regulatoryrequirements to get a device
in. So a lot of , uh, countrieswishing to enter into the
United States are having tomeet these robust , um,
regulatory hurdles. So itreally pays. In fact, you know,
it , it's, it's interestingthat in the United States, we
(06:35):
are in a little bit of a , um,human resource drought, you
might say, on the engineeringside. We, you could go into any
clean room in North America orany medical device , um,
company in the United Statesand Canada, and it's very
likely there'll be severalIndian nationals that are
working in the engineer team.
So what the Indians, on apersonal level understood, was
(06:59):
that science engineering , uh,mathematics has become an area
of study that has helped them.
And you can see the similartrend in Latin America where,
you know, no longer can Mexico,for instance, be the low dollar
, um, place to come and getsomething made. I mean, at one
point, you cap out in terms ofbeing a contractor of other
(07:23):
people's intellectual property.
So the goal and the hope forMexico and Latin America as a
whole is to be able to developthat intellectual resource
where they're developing theirown technology and not just
brokering or assembling in mostcases. Um, you know, you ask
about our political climate,it's hard not to look into the
(07:45):
new , our border crisis, right?
So, you know what our bordercrisis is telling the, the
world, and this is somethingthat Latin America really needs
to look at. I mean, why isthere such a movement , um,
from humanoids from south tonorth? And the answer is pretty
clear. It's lifestyle, right?
We all want a better lifestyle.
(08:06):
But the interesting part, I,I'm on a camp where several
other people are on the samecamp, is our goal isn't to , to
close the walls on Mexico. Um,we do have a problem with the
Mexican border where we cannotjust bring everyone in the
world because , uh, itcollapses an economy, right? So
that's an unfair way to enterinto a country. No one is
(08:28):
arguing that. But what it'stelling us is that a better way
for Latin America, certainlyMexico, and this analog, would
be to develop a China model, anIndia model, where they first
become the contract packagesfor US products , uh, not
medicine, but US products ingeneral. Um , no matter how you
(08:49):
wanna spend it politically,there's a low cost labor pool
south of our border. That's whywe export , um, assembly. Uh,
and logistically it's so muchbetter. It , it's so surprising
to me, why are we shippingcontainers from China when we
have a economic , uh, dieconomy that would allow us to
be able to do this in Mexicoand South America? So , uh, but
(09:14):
I think a lot of it, there's apushback I think in, in Latin
America where it's like, Hey,we, we've got things to sell as
well. We have the intellectualresources to make our own
product. And , uh, I thinkwe're, we're almost in a little
bit of a, a stalemate right nowin the case of Mexican. They've
, um, although , uh, theMexican , um, uh, connection
(09:34):
with the United States, I thinkis becoming much stronger. But
here's how the evolution works.
You , you're roughly in my agecategory there. So we all
remember that when we getthings from Japan , uh, as a
child , uh, in the sixties,Japanese products were just of
very low quality. It's hard forus to imagine a low quality
(09:56):
Japanese product. When you lookat reliability indexes of a
Toyota, some of the highestquality , some of the , um,
they're using Kaizen and SixSigma , um, manufacturing me
methods and their , um,brokering, exploiting, if you
like, their cultural , um,makeup to be able to make
incredible , uh, products. Sowhat we see , and now we see it
(10:19):
in China, and , and Japan'squite worried because when we
think of Ja uh , China over thelast 10 years, we don't think
of stellar beautifully built.
We're thinking lowest bidder ,you know, the low fruit stuff.
So that's where , um, we cansee these paradigms that can
change what I believe is gonnahappen. At one point, Mexico,
(10:41):
which has been the, the lowdollar provider of, of labor,
is going to get thoseintellectual resources sort of
developed. And what's gonnahappen is they're gonna be
known for better products.
There's a long way to go , forsure, but I think that is the
trend that India is in asimilar model, and we're, you
(11:01):
know, approaching a 10, youknow, billion something , uh,
world population right now. So,you know, it's surprising that
, um, we're there, you know,again, looking at some of the ,
the , uh, internationalmonetary fund says that , uh,
you know, the world economygrew by 5.2% in 2021 emerging
countries , uh, or somewhere inthe order of , um, 6%. And
(11:24):
Latin America is at 3.6. SoLatin America has some catching
up to do. And there's, I mean,since colonial times for South
America, there's challenges,there's even , uh, geographical
challenges, there's politicaldifferences . And so it's, it's
challenging for there to bethis sort of , um, European
(11:45):
Union model. It has to comeultimately, I think, and I
think that's where thedirection ultimately is gonna
go. There has to be that sortof a collective of united
countries that are going tocodify these quality measures
and allow only the best thatLatin America has to offer to
(12:07):
gate through a portal to therest of the world. That's what
I believe needs , needs tohappen.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Well said, Charlie.
Yeah, I like those comments.
The Pacific Alliance issomething that , uh, is
addressing that exactly whatyou're , um, discussing here, I
think is, is the, the onlyinitiative that really will
place Latin America as a , as aworld class , um, place. I
mean, at least the fourcountries that are part of the
(12:33):
Pacific Alliance , uh, tradeblock , uh, uh, a world class
trade block in the world, whichwill make about , uh, 200 and
something million people, andit will , uh, be considered
about the eighth economy in theworld. And just for listeners
to make sure we're on the samepage here, the, the Pacific
Alliance is the trade blockthat Mexico, Columbia , Peru,
and Chile have put together.
(12:55):
And these are the only OECDcountries in Latin America. And
the good news is that the tradeblock is expanding with Panama
and Costa Rica. Costa Rica justgot accepted into the OECD ,
uh, a few weeks ago, which isgreat news. And, and, and , and
these are countries that arealigned with international best
(13:17):
practices, internationalpolicies, and, and , uh,
they're open for business. So Ithink , um, yeah, well ,
Speaker 2 (13:24):
I think, you know, a lot of times, you know, Latin
America is marginalized for,you know, capability. Um, I
mean, when you're looking atMexico, Columbia, Chile and
Argentina represent the largest, uh, economy. They have a ,
um, uh, somewhere in the fourorder of $4.25 trillion. Um, I
(13:44):
mean, the same thing withIndia. We, we sort of
underestimated what India cando. And I think India 10 years
from now is going to have acompletely different meaning.
Obviously, China is in a, in avery , uh, sort of a time of
flux. Uh, so these things arehaving much quickly than they
used to. These were usually on25 year , uh, sort of
(14:06):
timelines, and they were gonnasee things happen much more
quickly. Um, and who getsinvolved? I mean, I think we
saw with the EU how theshakedown went . Uh, some
countries , uh, they wanted toparticipate, they didn't wanna
participate. Some they wantedin some, they regret putting
in, I mean, there was someissues in terms of Greece and
so forth. So, you know, we ,um, there's gonna be a shift
(14:27):
with that alliance as well. ButI , I really think in the, in
the interim, the companies thatare willing to start to get up
to speed in terms of worldprocesses are gonna make that
transition much easier becauseeven though there will be a
requirement in South Americafor, for quality and , uh,
(14:49):
there'll be a value system inall of the , uh, need to put
together in order to gate theseproducts with the quality that
the world requires. Now, thereare a lot of companies , um,
are getting heads up on this,and it's important that they
do. I mean, I would encourageany , um, medical device
manufacturer in Latin Americato start the process of , um,
(15:10):
getting an FDA 1345designation, or , um, uh, I'm
sorry, an ISO 1345 designationand working towards that
quality standard. Because whenyou, when you start working
towards these quality standardsand you peek into the United
States, I mean, a lot of , uh,countries , um, still look at
us as , uh, sort of thestandard of, of care in terms
(15:33):
of devices . Although I wouldargue that the EU now , um, has
, uh, with the UMDR , hmm , yep, UMDR has, has driven these
requirements beyond , uh, whatthe US is doing. And a lot of
companies in the US are havingthe same struggle. We're
struggling to become , uh,compliant to that new , uh,
European standard , uh, orvalue system. And although
(15:54):
we're very close , um, you canimagine on , on less developed
countries working under adifferent model , um, have to
really get up to speed quicklybecause the world is moving
very fast. And this , again,you know, our population is
exploding. We need to providegood cogent care to , uh,
billions of people in order tobe able to perform this on the
(16:16):
magnitude that's needed. Youknow, the, the good news, the
bad news about , um, what we'vedone is we've done an amazing
job worldwide of creating alifestyle that supports the
procreation of humans. The ,uh, proliferation of , uh, food
stuffs . We've done an amazingjob with that. But like every
species of animal , um, we growto the food supply. So the food
(16:39):
, food supply is big, shelteris, is there. And so we
continue to grow, but now wehave new challenges. I mean,
none of us can argue with thepandemic that we have,
infectious disease issues thatare gonna blossom again. We
certainly have not seen thelast of that. Um, I think if
anything that was just a quickpeek in to what could walk ,
could come , uh, somethingthat's airborne, that is much
(17:01):
more deadly , um, woulddevastate the world. And so we
have to be positioned , uh,worldwide. We all have to be on
the same page, obviously, forus to meet these challenges.
And I think , um, somecountries are doing a better
job than others, but when wetry to work , um, with some of
the companies , uh, thathistorically in Latin America ,
(17:23):
um, it's our own on don't bethis somewhat colloquial , um,
they were behind in what ourrequirements would be, and we
had to help bridge that gap.
Um, but, you know, in fairness,there , at the starting gate,
oftentimes, and they're one , Imean, they have, some of the
products that are coming , um,uh, from Latin America are
amazing devices. I mean,they're doing , um, respirators
(17:45):
in, I believe Brazil is , uh,is huge , right ? Um, tons of,
of very unique, very , uh, uh,well-built devices that would
benefit the world. And they'rebeing , uh, firewalled by the
regulatory , uh, hurdles thatit , to get these devices , uh,
in distribution. So obviouslythe goal is to bridge that
(18:08):
intellectual gap. Um, the , theability to do quick deploy and
to build these products in ,uh, Latin America , um, is
quite proven. Uh, I mean, ifyou look at consumer goods ,
um, even coming outta Mexico ,um, you know , the US has moved
several plants. Uh,Freightliner Ford has a , there
(18:28):
so many factories that are downthere. But when you look at the
management core there, it'sprincipally , uh, Americans.
And so what needs to happen isthat they need to take this
model as the Japanese did, andultimately the Chinese, and
realize that, you know, we haveto have the intellectual
(18:48):
resources first and not gohanging fruit of how many
shovel pole folds of productcan you get out the door.
That's not a , a strategy thatgrows a company, and it's
certainly not a strategy thatthat builds a nation, for sure.
Hmm .
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Well said , Charlie.
Yeah, yeah. So let's talk aboutspecifics in Latin America.
What countries will youconsider are the manufacturing
hubs in Latin America? Um,Mexico, Costa Rica, any other
country that we can talk about?
Yeah , I
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Mean , Costa Rica and in Mexico is where we are
seeing , um, uh, there they'reprobably 10 years a , uh, ahead
of , um, uh, you know, Cheerlain Argentina, in , in terms of
my , of what I've , uh,experienced. You know , again ,
a lot of it has to do withlogistics. You know, proximity
makes a difference. Um , and so, uh, we also have a better ,
(19:41):
uh, cultural connection. Youknow, if you were to take an
American and a Canadian in apub and you're drinking beer
together, it'll be an hourbefore you realize who's
Canadian and who's American.
We're so close in terms of whowe are. I mean, when I travel
abroad, are you American or areyou Canadian? I mean, we're
almost a thing now. If you aska Canadian, they'd be like, no,
we're different. And you askAmerican, no,
(20:04):
look at, you know, the , again,the regulatory differences for
us to be able to send throughtheir health ministry, we, we
have hurdles with a com , witha country that we almost
exactly share a value systemwith that we almost exactly
exactly share televisionlanguage. Everything you can
imagine when there's a languagedifference and a stronger
(20:25):
cultural difference, that thosebarriers become very , uh,
real. And some of 'em , whichare much more subtle is the
barriers between an Americancompany or Americans with ,
say, Argentina or Chile, orBrazil or Columbia versus
Central America or Mexico.
(20:47):
Mexico . We're , we're muchcloser , um, to understanding
each other by virtue of usbeing closer together. So, you
know , I think that that's oneof the challenges as you go
deeper into South America,you're losing , um, proximity
and you're, you're losing someof that cultural connection
that we've developed , um, by,you know, a century of our
(21:10):
connectivity with , uh, withMexico. Um, we also have, you
know, through the MLA Dore ,uh, through the , uh, um, NAFTA
at one point , um, we had , uh,the ability to sort of grease
the skids in terms of how wetrade with Mexico. So an
encouragement to work withMexico, but there really
(21:32):
wasn't, it wasn't politicized.
It wasn't incentivized for usto work with, say, Argentina.
So as a result of that, andalso when you get into deeper
political difference fromArgentina and the United
States, it becomes much moreproblematic. Um, those
political difference havealways been a struggle. And
when you're struggle whenyou're trying to import
products , um, from a , uh,country that is, is vastly
(21:56):
different than the value systemwhere the, the prevailing , uh,
backbone political structure,it's very difficult to do that
with Mexico. Um, the , uh, thepolitical difference is mild
enough, you might say, for usto be able to overcome that ,
uh, for us to work with 'embecomes much more challenging ,
uh, with Argentina, forinstance. So , um, even
(22:17):
Columbia , uh, to a certainextent. So I, you know, the ,
um, the , the, the realchallenge , uh, again, you
know, moving forward is for usto somehow bridge the cultural
gap, which is, is fairlyobvious that that needs to
happen and to sort ofmainstream , um, what it means
to work with these othernations, because it, it would
(22:39):
seem very, for the averageAmerican company, would seem
quite odd to trade withColumbia, for instance , um,
which would be odd for us, youknow what I mean? So , um, we
have a hard time, and althoughI wouldn't say necessarily that
Americans are nationalistic ,um, you know , uh, or
xenophobic, but I do believethat we do have a reluctance to
(23:00):
work with , uh, things that areforeign to us. I mean, there's,
I dunno if you watch TheSimpsons , um, uh, one of the
episodes was, it was funny whenthey were selling Falafels,
they had to rename them crunchpatties to be more acceptable
to Americans,
another one there where he wasbringing home tacos to , uh,
(23:20):
Mr. Burns, and he said, I toldyou, no ethnic food. You know,
so it's , um, Americans are ,um, not as international in
many ways, despite us beingsomewhat advanced in a lot of
ways. We tend to look inward asAmericans. Um, we look at us as
the gold standard when we seethings that aren't the same of
(23:42):
us. We're uncomfortable with us, uh, as you know, we're
famously struggling , uh, still, uh, you know, hundreds of
years into , uh, working withother , uh, nationalities and,
and races. We still strugglewith it. We should go on the
other end of this by now, sothat, that mild xenophobic
(24:03):
vista that Americans have, it'sunfortunately up to the
exporter , uh, these othercountries to be able to, you
know, recreate a vision ofnormalize it, if you like. Um,
when you look at , uh, uh, youknow, state of California
through their chamber , thestates Chamber of Commerce runs
(24:24):
, um, ads in other states to totalk about California talk ,
talk about it until it becomesnormal to wanna visit
California. And similarly, youknow, we, you have to have some
sort of a campaign underwrittenby a nation or a group of
nations be able to, I mean, ifyou go to a , a , the trade
show, the medical device andmanufacturing trade show, which
(24:47):
we hold out , uh, here, it'scoming up in , uh, August this
year , um, if you, about everyother Booth is another state
that's encouraging Californiacompanies to move to work with
them . So they're trying to ,um, talk about the benefits of
working with, say, Texas , uh,what are the economic benefits?
What are the cultural business, uh, benefits, what are the
(25:09):
lifestyle benefits for youremployees? What is the
intellectual resources that youcould expect to have if you
were to work with that? So,other countries obviously have
been doing this for some time.
Uh, there's a , uh,international pavilion
typically at these , um, tradeshows, and you can visit and
talk to them. Typically, thoseare to have the discussion
about exporting products orworking with them in some way.
(25:32):
So it's nothing new. This hasbeen going on 20, 30 years that
I've observed. Um, but I thinkthere needs to be a bigger push
through other media channels,not just the B2B industrial
side. Um, we almost have tonormalize these relationships ,
um, to the rank and file , uh,to the average Joe on the
street, if you like. We allneed to understand that, you
(25:55):
know , uh, I mean we , uh, uh,there was a survey about 10
years ago, and they said thatthe average , um, high school ,
uh, graduate couldn't identifyin America, couldn't identify
Europe on a world map, what
very different than , um, and,you know, I don't know if
(26:16):
that's a testament to pooreducation or again, if it's
that just sort of lack ofinterest on things outside of
your zone of interest. So, youknow, we have to, it is up to,
again, these countries , um, tobe able to, or in Latin America
as a whole, to be able tonormalize , um, to be able to
broadcast the story, understandour culture. We wanna work with
(26:39):
people that we know. I mean,when we're dealing with, I I, I
work with a group of people. Imean, most of us are on
LinkedIn now, right? If you'regoing to LinkedIn and you
develop connections, that is aplace, it's the Facebook of
Commerce. It's a place for usto develop a relationship that
we can parlay thatrelationship. After we
understand that person, whatthey offer, we can now parlay
(27:01):
that relationship into abusiness relationship. So
LinkedIn has been a very, veryimportant to that. So I think
we should all take a page outof LinkedIn's story and say
that, well, if the , if theflow of commerce means let's
first develop a relationshipthat we feel comfortable with,
and then let's take thatrelationship once we understand
(27:22):
who you are and what you do andwhat your value system is. And
then let's talk about business.
So that I think, is the duty ofLatin America moving forward,
is understand us as a cultureof people, our capabilities ,
um, what our goal is, what ourvalue structure looks like,
what our infrastructure lookslike, and then let's get busy
(27:43):
and do business together. So Ithink that's gonna be really
the challenge moving forward.
Maybe not so much of achallenge. It's certainly the
duty moving forward, I believe,of Latin America in order to
really be the president of theWorld War Market. That's
certainly Latin America hopesto gain.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Agree, Charlie? Yes, yes. Um, you are right on point
in the case of Columbiaspecifically, that is of
course, the country that Ifollow the most. Uh , that's
where I focus most of myefforts, and that's where I'm
from. I see the Colombiangovernment pushing a lot on
what they call a newer sharingstrategy, trying to bring, you
(28:21):
know, during the Trumpgovernment , uh, the issue with
China became a very hot topic,and a lot of companies were
reevaluating their Chinastrategy , uh, manufacturing
strategy. So they were tryingto, the common government was
trying to position the countryas a, as a great substitute to,
to , uh, um, to China. So theyhave this strategy called neo
(28:43):
sharing strategy, and theystarted doing ads and, and ,
and meetings all over theUnited States trying to bring
companies back to LatinAmerica, to Columbia . And ,
uh, because at the, at the, atthe beginning of nafta, there
was a big push to domanufacturing in Mexico, and
then China came along and , uh,people started going to China.
And now we have thisnearshoring
(29:07):
um, initiative , uh, coming inin that , in America. The other
thing is that , um, For LatinAmericans, Mexico is part of
the region, is part of LatinAmerica. It's actually , uh,
when you go to school in LatinAmerica, I , I was taught in
high school in Columbia thatMexico was, central America was
(29:30):
part of us, but in the usMexico is North America. Yeah .
It has a totally differentconnotation,
like a , a like a , like aNorth American fellow country,
even though they speak adifferent language, but they're
North America and we share somany things in common. Um, um,
(29:51):
I mean from the , from the USstandpoint, yeah, Mexico used
to be , um, used to ownCalifornia. They used Nevada,
the , all this . So Mexico iskind of part of the American
history. Um, so it's probablyeasier to, to relate as an
American relate to Mexicorather than to Columbia
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Lot . A lot of , um, Mexicans , um, where, when
California was part of Mexico,they still refer , refer to it
almost jokingly. Yes . AltaCalifornia.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Yes. Agreed . Yes.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
So as , as in Alta California myself, you know,
it's funny because there , ifyou're a southern Californian,
I mean , uh, uh, you can seeI'm a Dutch guy, right? By
looking at me. Um, most of usare from German descent where
Europeans, Irish and Scottish.
And so , uh, you know, what'san American mean? But , um, you
know, it's a question I guessof geography , uh, you know,
(30:44):
versus language, you know, asgeography. Certainly Mexico is
a, is a North American nationin our vista, but , uh, in
terms of culture , uh, we seethe much more Latin American,
obviously. But , um, you'reright, I do think that because
they're, they're our next doorneighbor. They're part of , um,
this continent. Uh, then weobviously look at 'em as sort
(31:06):
of , uh, a distant cousin, andobviously
very different route becausethey're made of the same
people. And , um, and thenthere's Puerto Rico, you know,
we have that , uh, that littlepiece that we have to look at
where, you know, we are, are atone point is , uh, Puerto Rico
gonna be, you know, the 51ststate? What's gonna happen
there? You know, we can't , wecan't bring, can we bring in a
(31:28):
, um, uh, a piece to theAmerican pie that , uh, isn't
native , uh, speaking English.
A lot of challenges like thatthat make , um, the movement
of, of goods and people , uh,uh, challenging. But you're
right. Um, it's kind of a grayarea in Mexico, but it's, and
maybe that's why, you know, asyou say, it's probably easier ,
um, uh, to deal with because ,uh, they , they feel very much
(31:51):
our neighbors, most of usvacation down there. Uh, and as
I say, if you're a SouthernCalifornian , uh, like my wife
and I are raised here, but ,uh, she's German, I'm Dutch and
, and Irish , um, but no oneknows how to make a better taco
than my wife does, because ifyou're , if you're a
Californian, you're Mexican. Imean, when Ira was raised in
San Bernardino, and , um, Ithought I was Mexican until I
(32:13):
was about, you know, 12 yearsold, because all of my friends
were Mexican. So we we're veryintegrated here. And so as a
result of that , um, we're usedto, there are friends, our , we
know 'em, they're , uh,relatives oftentimes. Um, so
it's, it's something that , uh,is much easier for us to deal
with. But when you talk about,you know, past the Panama Canal
(32:36):
and beyond, things start tochange for us. You know, it's
funny how , um, there's sort ofa zeitgeist of an era when it
comes to countries. Now I'm oldenough, I'm 62 years old, so I
remember Columbia meaningcoffee, you know, the Colombian
coffee, everything, the bestcoffee in the world, coffee,
(32:56):
coffee, coffee. And that was oncommercials. But then as you
move into the eighties,Columbia meant the best
marijuana you can get inCalifornia,
where things become a littlebit tricky, is that depending
on the age of the person,whether they're a baby boomer,
a millennial , uh, uh, a GenXer, they're gonna have a
(33:18):
different view of a regionbased . Great
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Point ,
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Guys , when they were, they were raised. And so,
you know, we hear Columbiandrug lords, I hear, yes ,
Columbia
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Coffee , Netflix is not helping much
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Exactly. Right .
Speaker 1 (33:32):
So
Speaker 2 (33:32):
I think it's important to, you know, to
remember that whether we likeit or not, we have the human
rhythm of people with theirprejudice. Call 'em what you
like, but these are prejudice ,um, maybe not even so much
prejudice. It's more, it's moreof a cultural understanding
that they have of a nation. Andthat is going to change. I
mean, right now, but China usedto just mean bad merchandise to
(33:56):
us now. It means a politicalproblem trying to take over the
world. Now they're , you know ,and cheap product. So they've
got a long ways to go in orderto change what I would call a
very challenging PR problem forChina right now. So I think we
all have to understand howpeople see what their worldview
(34:17):
is, and for us to understand,you know, how can we better
shape, not spin, but how can weshape the story of our nation
to where , uh, we address theproblems that we may have in
the past? Let's don't ignore'em. Let's, you know, let's not
forget what the world may seeus as. Let's work with that.
Let's try to reshape again, notto respin. Let's reshape that
(34:41):
who we are . And that is theentryway, the
coming into
Yeah . I mean, we have to havethat gate to come in, and
there's a certain amount ofthings that we, we have to do
in order for us to be accepted,you know, worldwide, you know,
the US has , um, if when Itravel to Europe, sometimes I,
(35:02):
I almost wanna put a Canadianflag on me because everybody
thinks Americans are loud andobnoxious, and so I tend quiet,
you know, but there's a ,there's always truth in these
little beliefs. I mean, anytimeyou go , um, worldwide, you can
always hear a loud group ofpeople. It's Americans, right?
Yeah . So always , yeah ,
Speaker 1 (35:19):
I agree . So
Speaker 2 (35:20):
We , um, we have kind of an image that , um, is
warranted and it's a , it'sbehavior, but, you know, maybe
we should, maybe we need tore-spin our, our story that
we're just exuberant happypeople. Maybe that's PR problem
. They're
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Happy people , by the way . They're very
friendly, very , very friendly. Yeah . I mean ,
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Worldwide, I think they're the friendliest people
for sure. So, but we do, Ithink , um, in the case of, of
countries and, and coming out,you know, we do have to address
the potential of xenophobia,how , um, how a culture, and
particularly in the UnitedStates, we're very slow to take
on other cultures. You know, wewe're much more comfortable
(35:57):
with crunch patties than Flos.
And that's our problem. We, wehave to, you know, we have to,
we're still a burger and frynation there , really. We talk
about America being the meltingpot. Um, but that's not really
the case. I mean, certainly inEurope , uh, uh, that's much
more of a case or in, in bigcities in the United States.
But we're still, and , and, youknow, I don't have a problem
(36:17):
with that. I, I believe , um, Iwas very frustrated when Europe
changed into the euro from theunique monies when I travel ,
because I love the uniquenessof a country. And I, and what
I'm saying is, I don't believeanyone should detune their
culture in order to fit in witha world commerce. I'm just
(36:37):
saying that make your yourculture palatable,
world , um, market , and tomake sure that, that you allow
people the opportunity to getto know you. So I think, you
know, with a , the PacificAlliance, the , the challenge
may be coming out of the gateis an introduction to the world
(36:58):
and what's capable, what are ,what are the fantastic things
that are happening? How can wehelp? Those are the sort of
things that are really gonna beasked , I think is the
headwater moving into the worldmarket.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Excellent. Charlie , I love your comments very wise,
by the way. And so Charlie,we're close to the end of the
show, and the question I alwaysask my guests towards the end
of the show is, what would beyour muscles of wisdom? What
would be your words of wisdomif you had the CEO of , uh, a
US company , uh, looking atLatin America as a place to do
(37:32):
clinical trials, commercializemedical technologies or
manufacture devices? So whatwill be, what would be your,
your, how would you summarizeyour wisdom to him or her?
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Well, you know, I think , um, really you're ,
we're seeing a lot moreattendance , um, before we see
a trickle of attendance tothese world trade show . The
trade shows in the medicaldevice industry. Um, and they
would come in, they would shakehands, meet a few people, they
would take a , a few notes andthey would retreat quickly back
to their desk. I think really,in order to understand the
(38:02):
market you're gonna sell, justlike any relationship, the
relationship needs to have ahigher level of understanding.
I would encourage someone whois a, and we've seen other comp
, uh, companies have , havedone this strategy, is to stay
in the United States , uh, oryour market, your targeted
market , uh, for a month'stime. Visit vendors, visit,
take tours of facility , um,find out who, how clean rooms
(38:26):
are configured, what are thechallenges in the US market,
because I think it's, it'sprobably not a , a great idea
to try to enter into a marketwith already fraught with
challenges , um, when , uh, ofjust that connection from one
country to another until youunderstand that the challenges
that we have domestically. Sowhen you understand what the US
(38:49):
companies, medical devicemanufacturers are up against in
terms of regulatory hurdles ,um, you know, right now we're
in the middle of a , uh, humancrisis, a human talent crisis.
So how are, how are thesecompanies , uh, managing those
, um, challenges? And when youlook at it from the vista of a
medical device , uh,manufacturer in the United
(39:10):
States, it makes you much moreempathetic on how your
approach, what your marketingstrategies are gonna be coming
into the us . So forgetting allabout the cultural differences,
the , the regulatory issues ofcoming in, let's pretend your
company is a US company, andyou have to start that business
now. That is gonna give you thedeepest amount of insight, in
(39:31):
my opinion.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Perfect. Charlie, thank you so much for being a
guest in our show. I lookforward to being in touch. I'm
sure listeners got a lot out ofyour wisdom,
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Hope so . Thank you so much for having me. It's a
great pleasure.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
What was that.
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