October 13, 2023 • 32 mins
Tripp Davis returns for part 2 on golf course design enhancing golf IQ. Tripp says, “... it’s really become more about power. The game is about scoring. It’s not about how you hit the ball, it’s about how quickly you get the ball into the hole..”
This was originally a Members Only episode, published in February 2012. This is the first time it's been shared publically for free.
This was originally a Members Only episode, published in February 2012. This is the first time it's been shared publically for free.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Golf Smarter Mulligans, yoursecond chance to gain insight and advice from
the best instructors featured on the GolfSmarter podcast. Great Golf Instruction Never gets
old. Our interview library features hundredsof hours of game improvement conversations like this
(00:21):
that are no longer available in anypodcast app Elevated green with no backdrop to
it creates a debt perception problem,and that's one of the things that we
always try to play on. Subtlethings that make the golf course a little
more difficult or can challenge the playerwithout making it really more physically difficult.
And the more you can challenge aplayer's ability to feel a shot, the
(00:42):
better you can make the golf courseinteresting to play, but yet not a
lot more physically difficult. And elevatedbeans from those backdrop is one thing.
You know, how you position bunkersin a fairway to create death perception instances.
To cut a bunker on the shortside of a whole, and it's
a big long and you put onejust ten or fifteen yards longer on the
(01:03):
left side, you make it asmaller bumper, You've created a death perception
issue where that buck on the leftlooks like it's miles further out there,
and it makes a little harder tofeel shot. So every kind of mad
scientist type of things that we workwith. With another interview from the archives
of Golf Smarter, here's your host, Fred Green. Welcome back to Golf
(01:23):
Smarter for members only trip. Well, lad to be here, and I
you know, in between these tworecordings, you mentioned that you're leaving for
China in matter of moments, soyou don't have a ton of time,
and I really appreciate you saying yesto be doing this, So let's just
get right to it, and whenyou're talking about golf course design and what
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kind of impact it has on theaverage golfer. Now, before I leave
this last topic, when you weredesigning the Tribute down in the Colony,
Texas and you were recreating your favoriteScotland holes, I do imagine that I've
never played in Scotland, but Iwould think that a lot of the golf
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courses there are pretty much dictated bythe not just the terrain, but the
weather. Absolutely. I mean thewind is one of the more prevalent factors,
and you know obviously over there it'snot one hundred and seven degrees in
July. You know, the bigdifference between Scotland and Dallas can be the
(02:30):
extreme heat, but from a playingstandpoint, the more critical element is wind.
And you know, there's a lesserelement into the fact that when you
know it's hot out and you ask, the ball can sometimes travel further and
so forth, but it's not thatbig of a fact that compared to the
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wind. So you know, thebiggest things that we tried to recreate there
from the playing conditions perspective is makingsure that the golf course plays farm and
fast, because you know, that'ssuch a big part of the way that
the strategy of those courses work andselling is how the ball can bounce,
how you can use the ground torun sh up from the greens and you
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know, someone last I repoles fromover there are the ones where you don't
fly the ball to the hole.You've got to land the short, you've
got to creatively use the slopes thatwere built in to get the certain fein
locations, and so that that wasa central part of the design at the
Tribute. So you're telling me whenI it doesn't play like a parkland course,
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that's prevalent throughout the United States.So when I get a chance to
go out and play the Tribute,I should be thinking of laying up a
lot instead of trying to hit thegreens. Is this what you're telling me,
Well, you don't necessarily have tolay out, but when you're hitting
a shot into the green, youdon't necessarily have to fly to the green.
Okay, the benefit is in usingthe slopes, you know. The
(04:02):
sixth tol at the Tribute, forinstance, is if my recreation or my
interpretation attribute to one of the holesat Microhanish on the up in the northwest
part of Scotland, and the slopesaround the green allow you to bump the
ball in and use the slopes tofeed it back into the green. And
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what as if you try to flyit to the green, you run the
risk of it running through the greenh And it's a little more difficult to
get to some of the pin locationsby flying it because if you even if
the greens are a little softer,but at any given time you've got to
fly to the ball a certain distance. If you run it into the green,
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you're margin for arias a little lessbecause the slopes will help contain the
ball. And so that's what Imean by kind of bumping and running shots
in or using the ground, andthat apply it to the whole. So
that's the kind of stuff that absolutelyfascinates me about golf course architecture and design
is using the elements that you haveas strategic approaches for a golf shot,
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like elevated greens. And what you'resaying is right, you don't necessarily want
to try to land it on thegreen. You want to get it up
to it. But if you cometoo slow and come up too low,
it's going to fall back. Well, that's the fun thing about golf course
designers. There are really limitless waysin which you can use the ground.
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You can use the elements, youcan use the conditions the golf course is
going to be maintained in you know, the the to try to design,
for instance, the same golf courseon bent Grass versus Demoda and so forth.
If you're trying to create the sameplayability, there's got to be changes
in the way that the golf coursesbuilt so that those features work the same
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way. You know, ben Grassis a totally different playing surface, both
in the way you play shot offof it as compared to the Permuto graphs,
and you know that's changed a littlebit of the years, and in
large measure because wem and fairly isso much tighter than we used to.
But uh, there're just limitless waysin which you can conceive how a player
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is going to play the whole,and how multiple players can play the whole.
I'm a big proponent of giving asmany players as many options to play
the whole, not only just becauseit will fit their playing style, but
because it allows every player of equalscoring ability the ability to compete with each
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other. One of the things thatI've am, you know, dismade about
with the game of to day ishow long we're making golf courses, not
only on tour but for the averageplayer. It really has become a game
more about power in certain respects.And when the game is about scoring,
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it's not about how you hit theball, it's about how quickly you get
ball in the whole. And sodesign needs to give players of different abilities
and different approaches to the game optionson how they can play the game,
play each hole and score the thing. Actually, you beat me to it.
I was going to ask the questionabout how does equipment, today's equipment,
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and how radically it's changed over thelast five to eight years. How
does that dictate course design? Well, you know, it's there can be
a good argument made for how ithas dictated course design and versus whether or
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not course design could create some sortof balance between the equipment today that we
can play with and the players thatplayed today. I mean, you have
the you know, the guys thatare playing today. You know, Tiger
Woods and Dustin Johnson. These guysare athletes. You know, They're not
to say that Nicholason and Tom Watsonand you know, the greats of the
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past weren't athletic, but these guyscan swing the club, you know,
so much faster, and they canhit off so much higher, and so
forth, and and golf course designed. The response to it was, let's
challenge those players with greater physical ability, whether it's the physical nature that they
bring the game themselves or what theequipment helps them do physically. And so
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we've we've looked at challenging players physicallymore so than strategically and mentally in a
lot of ways, you know,and in a lot of ways, it
didn't make sense because if you wantto challenge the longer player. Making the
golf course longer is not necessarily challengingthem, it's playing into their hands.
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What you find challenges the longer playerbetter is not always being able to use
their legs, and then also havingto compete against the broader range of players.
If you take a one hundred andforty four player field on the PGA
Tour and you've got fifteen power playersand the golf course is seventy seven hundred
yards long, you don't have manyof those players in one hundred and forty
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four player field that can really competephysically and so. But whereas when you
get a golf course that's you know, around seven thousand yards, you know,
also depending on how firm and Fascettplays, how many shots the players
is required to play, you bringa lot of players back into the game.
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I think the setup that Troon,excuse me, Turnberry have Watson almost
one is a perfect example of howthe golf course was there to challenge the
player's ability to score and not whatthey could do physically. Yeah, I've
played courses that are not necessarily long, but it's very obvious that if you
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don't have a good short game.It's going to eat you alive. I
mean, it's going to put youin a position where this is you know,
you you get onto the green andyou go, oh my gosh,
this is definitely a three part greenin possibly four exactly. And you know,
and even at that, you know, the ultimate golf course is going
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to be one that doesn't overly penelotsomeone with you know, an average short
game. It's it's one where theplayers kind of called on to be able
to execute a broad range of shotsso that no one's strength they had will
dominate the golf course, but noone weakness that they have can be overcome
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in some way if they know howto use their strength in a way to
overcome certain weaknesses. And that's whatwe're looking at when we're looking at and
when we're designing golf courses, iswe don't try to focus on on making
the golf course about anyone's strength.We're trying to balance the golf course out
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so that the guy that can hitit a long way has got to advantage
on certain holes that on other holes, he's got to be more accurate,
he's got to be a little moreprecise. He may have to use a
short game, he may have todo other things within the game to being
able to excel in the golf courseas a whole. And that's really where
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golf design needs to fall in termsof being able to make the game enjoyable
for all play levels and then alsowhen it comes to championship golf, being
able to benefy the player you canshoot the best four. How much pressure
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is there from developers, the peoplewith the money who are coming to hire
you saying I need a golf course. I want a golf course here,
I want it to be on thetour. There is there a lot of
that saying that this course is you'vegot to design this, We've got to
get this one on the tour becauseit's going to help me get my money
back type of thing. Well,there's there's two two kind of pressures that
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you know, you run into that. I mean, the course we're doing
in China right now is one thatthey hope to be able to host championships.
And when we did Old American,there was some pressure there that we
wanted to eventually host something like theUS Public Samateur or the US Amateur.
Uh you know, uh, youknow, Old American was actually recently they
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listed four courses that should host surventsaround the country. Awesome, it was
one of those that was included inthat. West Congratulations and yeah, that
was pretty kind of cool. Yeah. The other pressure is to make it
something a standard. You know,in China, for instance, if the
golf course isn't Part seventy two,if it's Part seventy one or par seventy,
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the culture of the season is alesser golf course. And you know,
in the United States it's been youknow, the golf course has got
to be seven thousand hours long tobe seen as a championship golf course.
And the perception is that if itcan host a tour event, or if
we can host a tour event,you know, if it's long enough,
if it's of a standard quality,that it will help to attract players and
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help the golf course be sustainable.So you have to balance that to some
extent, you know, the Chinafinish, there was a bit of kind
of a funny story about that andthat the land we had to work with
the way that everything worked out,my original design was at Part seventy one,
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and uh, that's just the waythe wholes sit on the land.
The best and the and the ownerwas adamant that we had a part seventy
two. And so what we endedup doing was making that whole an optional
par four par three, kind oflike George Thomas had done, uh a
number of golf courses that he isback in the twenties, the guy that
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was on the area in La CountryClub in bel Air, and so we
were able to keep it apart freefor from the backbie, but for the
number it's a short par four.And so that's how we, you know,
sometimes balance that pressure. M hm. How often do you have to
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design a course or not even howoften? What kind of demands are there
is that you design a course oryou design a hole for playability versus maintenance.
Well, it's uh, playability isnot necessarily always pitted against maintenance,
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you know. Challenge sometimes can bepitted against maintenance, and it depends on
how you define playability. That thewell, we always have to be aware
that our client is that X amountof dollars to be able to sustain the
golf course for a maintenance perspective,and so you know, some of our
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clients, you know, they'll havean unlimited maintenance budget. Some of them
are in markets where they're not exactlysure where that may fall, and we
have to be cognizant of that sothat when we design the golf course,
the maintainability can be flexible in someways. If we've got a project where
it's in a new market and youknow ten years from now the maintenance puget
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may be cut by twenty percent,we've got to be aware that we don't
want the golf course at that kidof then have to be redesigned or not
maintained to a different standard because itcan't maintain it all. But the big
thing that we have the ability towork with if you're creative enough, is
to design a golf course that thesetup can dictate how playable it is,
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how challenging it is, versus howmaintainable it is. It's completely possible to
build a golf course that is highlymaintainable. But if you go to rough
a little bit, you get thefairways a little farmer, you get the
greens a little faster. If you'veimparted enough subtlety into the golf course to
make those really increase the challenge level, then you can build a golf course
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that's adaptable and it can go theother way too. For instance, if
to make it a little more playablefor the average player, if you cut
the rough you wide in the fairwaysa little bit, or slow the greens
towns offer them up a little bit, it becomes more playable. What are
your favorite mm hmm, Well,we'll call them features, your favorite design
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features. I mean, as agolfer, I call them distractions. But
you know, whether they be fairwaybunkers, green side bunkers, water,
elevated greens, what are the featuresthat you you know, I guess that
is your signature. Oh, youknow, Fred k we have a signature
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in that way. You know.It all depends on the land in a
lot of respects. And and wedo start every project by trying to work
towards some sort of uh concept,whether you call it a theme. And
you know, and when I saytheme, it doesn't necessarily mean a visual
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thememore a there's a story behind itas much as we are looking at the
way the features will be built.You know, we're doing a project.
We've got a number of projects rightnow where we've got you know, five
different bunker styles. I mean fromdoing a restoration of book collar in Dallas
Forward doing a chilling hat style bunkerthat's got a little more got more capes
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and bays in it, to apremature restoration up in Northeast Oklahoma where he
had originally done grass space bumpers withvery little shape to him and sand in
the bottom to the Old American,which is more links like in terms of
you know, I say Lenk forme, more like Irish links like where
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your bumpers are a little ragged edgeand so forth. So you want to
be able to adapt to the siteand the ability to have more of a
broad creative range on how you usethose features is important. Now, how
you use those features, Ken getsinto what I think your question was mostly
about him as to how do Iuse the features and situateate that it enhances
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will play the game. And youknow, for instance, and elevated green
with no backdrop to it creates adebt perception problem. And that's one of
the things that we always try toplay on is subtle things that make the
golf course a little more difficult,or it can sounds the player without making
it really more physically difficult. Andthe more you can challenge a player's ability
(19:17):
to feel a shot, the betteryou can make the golf course interesting to
play, but yet not a lotmore physically difficult and elevated beans when those
backdrop is one thing. You know, how you position bunkers in a fair
way to create death perception. Forinstance, if you put a bunker on
the short side of a hole andit's a big, long bunker, and
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you put one just you know,ten or fifteen yards longer on the left
side and you make it a smallerbunker, you've created a death perception issue
where the bunk on the left lookslike it's miles further out there, and
it makes a little harder to feela shot. So those are kind of
the mad scientist type things that wework on that you probably laugh behind your
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back. What do you mean feelyou mean for the golfer when they're standing
there addressing, looking at the shot, deciding what they have to do.
Is that what you mean by feela shot right? And you know the
the just think of it this way. I mean, when you when you
hit an eight iron, if youstand on a range and you're trying to
hit your eight one hundred and fortyyards. If you're on the range and
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you've got a perfect level lie,there's no wind. You can, with
a lot of practice and skill,can retreat that shot the way you can
hit it one hundred and thirty fiveone hundred and forty five yards. But
you get out on a golf courseand you end up with enough to a
lie or down the side of alie, the greens thirty feet below or
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thirty feet above you, the onesthat your baskets in your face. You
can't just judge strictly on distance.You have to kind of feel that shot.
How long it took me to figurethat out? Yeah, And so
the cue that we can throw outthere's golf course architects can either sometimes encourage
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your ability to feel a shot,or we can make it more of a
challenge to be able to feel ashot. And it doesn't go to just
distances as well. It can goto whether or not you want to favor
the right shot. You know,if a player can move the ball right
right to left, it may youknow, we may build a hole that
looks like a right left shot.It's going to feel more it's going to
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feel more comfortable to that, Whereaswe can create a hole that looks more
like the left the right shot,and you know, for a player that
plays the ball right to left,that hole feels less. You mentioned earlier
about if if a course is apar seventy or seventy one, you said,
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but in China that they think it'sa lesser of a golf course.
Yeah. I can see that.I mean, I can see it's like,
oh, it's only part seventy one, but it just means there's one
less par five, there's only oneless part three. Basically, it depends.
You know, we we've done alot of part seventy ones recently and
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in large measures because of the waythe land works are and so forth.
And I'm also a big fan of, uh having more than four part three's
on a golf course. You know, the fifth part three you had a
lot of varieties of golf course.Uh. You know, I mentioned in
the last episode about the rhythm ofthe golf course and the way that the
golf course flows. And you know, I'm a big proponent making every hole
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feel a little different. And it'sharder to make two part fours feel different
than it is if you have apar three falling a par four, just
simply because of the length of thehole in the way that you're going to
play a shot, and so weoften will we'll do that well, you
know we want to we'll make apart seventy one, not assuily by one
less par five and one more parthree, and so, you know,
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it really comes down to the qualityof the golf course. I mean,
one of my favorite golf courses inthe world is one of Moress in probably
Rhode Island. It's an old DonaldRoss course that they played in Northeast a
mater On and it's of course sixtynine wow, but it's it's it's a
great golf course. Wow. Iplayed of course Seviano Links up in Corner,
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California. I just posted a videoon YouTube about it. And it's
a John Daily design, so it'svery long, but there's three par threes
and three par fives on each side. Mm hmm. And I found that
to be really entertaining. Yeah,you know, as long as those wholes
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fit to land and they create moreinterest in the way that the course is
played. But that's great. Idon't think there should be any standards as
to having you know, third partpretty six on both sides, and or
you know that you have to havefour part fives and four part three,
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and they don't need to be inany sort of order. You know Capala
where they played it the years,part seventy three, And that's because when
they'll they'll pour in Prenchhall buildment,they have an extra poar five that sit
into the landscape. So yeah,I find it far more. I found
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it far more entertaining to have thatkind of variety. You know. It's
like when you come par four,part four, part four, it's like,
just hit it, just hit itfar, and then you know,
set yourself up. And I don'tnecessarily like pulling out the driver every time.
I like teeing off with the threewood occasionally and setting myself up for,
you know, a shot that I'mgoing to strategically be more comfortable with
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hitting it one hundred and twenty fiveyards, you know, versus one hundred
and sixty yards or I like thatkind of variety. Yeah, it's it's
you know, the variety is isthe most important part about keeping the golf
course interesting. Yeah, and soit's it's virale and what brings the average
(25:11):
golfer back again and again is itinteresting or is it scoring? Is like
Okay, I can beat this course, I'm coming back or this is such
a challenge, like golf is initself, this is such a challenge.
I got to come back and tryto, you know, beat this beast.
I think, you know, forthe average player, it's it's you
know, it's it's can be alot of different things. You know,
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it can be scoring, it canbe the visual nature of the golf course,
it can be the interesting shots thatthey have to play, and so
you know, it can be thewhite variety of things. I mean,
it's one of the great things aboutthe game is that every player is going
to bring their own perspective to thegolf course and what gets pro juices flowd
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you know, typically for the averageplayer, and when we're design on the
golf course and you know, tomake sure that the average player can have
fun. And you know, twentyyears of doing this, the feedback that
I get is less about scoring andit's less about visual as much as it
is about constant variety within the golfcourse. That they're never having to play
(26:22):
a sainshot, that they're always havingto do something different, and that's that's,
you know, the most important thing. And at the same time,
you don't want to beat the averageplayer up. I mean, you don't
want that. You don't want toten handicap going out there and not being
able to dig niney Will they walkaway from the course going I hate this
(26:45):
place. Yeah they can't. Yeah, but it's you know, interest is
more important than anything, and thatwas reinforced last weekend we opened of course
called Turtle Duns and Ocapoco, andI was very interested to see what the
players had to say afterwards. Wehad about one hundred players play that day,
(27:07):
and I've stuck around and talked toa lot of them. And while
a lot of them would say,you know, I've shot lowly in May
indicap, you know I really enjoyed. The main thing that was always giving
back was that every hole had adifferent feel, and I was always interested
in what I was doing. That'sfabulous. That's important, Yeah, because
(27:30):
so often when you see websites,you read reviews of golf courses, they
talk about the beauty around it,and it's like, really, that's the
best you've got is that it's sucha beautiful play which listen, I love
playing on places that are visually spectaculararound the course, or the wildlife that's
flying or running by. But stillI think you're right. The variety of
(27:52):
shots that you have to take makesyou know, the more clubs you can
use in your bag, the moreentertaining your day is going to be.
Yeah, it's you know, it'splaying on on site right by the ocean
or you know, there's there's obviousinterest in that. But you know,
one of my favorite golf courses inthe world too, there's a garden city
(28:17):
up a long island and you know, it's in the middle of town.
There's you know, there's nothing aroundit to really see that. They'd be
on the last cultures. Golf coursesyou'd call beautiful from an aesthetic perspective,
but it's it's beautiful from the standpointthat, uh, you're constantly being confronted
with having to play different shops andthose are the golf courses that tend to
(28:41):
stand the test of time better.M hm. Do you have time for
one more question? Or do Ihave to invite you to come back again?
I got time for one more Doesthat mean you're not going to come
back? Well, I'll come backto that. I got to okay the
difference and hopefully this is an easyanswer. What's the different between restoration,
renovation, and reconstruction on a golfcourse, when you get involved in a
(29:03):
project, well, renovation is isreally trying to put the golf course back
into the state it was before itdeteriorated in some way. Renovation, you
know, can also it can mosttimes mean just maintenance related things. For
(29:26):
instance, the features of a golfcourse really have wife lands. They don't
last wherever. You know, bunkeris not going to function the way you
want it to forever. Teas don'tstay level forever, greens won't grow grass
and not as maintainable as you wantedto be forever as well. So renovation
(29:48):
oftentimes just means, you know,the story, or putting those things back
into a way that they can functionproperly. Restoration is more about putting it
back into a state that it wasin that was some form of higher design,
some form of higher functionality, someform of higher historic quality. So
(30:15):
we're not only making the feature itselfmore functional, we're also introducing the way
that it was intended to be playedin some cases, the way it was
intended to look. And too oftentimeswhat we get caught up in with restoration
is putting it back the way thatit was, instead of understanding why the
(30:40):
way it was. For instance,that you can put a green back to
the way it was in the nineteentwenties that possibly might not be cusible at
today's green speeds. But if youunderstand why the green that was not the
way it was, why there wasa backshelf on a part five that required
you to land the shot short andbomp it up to back ten location,
you can restore it in such away that modern player can experience the golf
(31:03):
course the way it was intended tobe. And that's really what restoration should
be about. Reconstruction is can takeon a lot of different forms, right,
I mean it can be everything fromcompletely rebuilding a golf course in a
different routing. It can be takinga feature on a golf course that historically
(31:23):
or to day doesn't function properly ordidn't function properly and reconstructing it in such
a way that has more interest inplace better in the modern times. A
lot of times reconstruction will go torebranding the golf course in such a way
that they can open themselves up toa broader marketing field. Absolutely fascinating trip.
(31:47):
I again, I really appreciate yougiving me this much time and I
wish you great success, continued success, and that you become a legend so
we can talk about you for yearsto come and your courses, and please
safe travels and good luck in theFar East. Thanks Hm.
Welcome to Golf Smarter Mulligans, yoursecond chance to gain insight and advice from
the best instructors featured on the GolfSmarter podcast. Great Golf Instruction Never gets
old. Our interview library features hundredsof hours of game improvement conversations like this
(00:21):
that are no longer available in anypodcast app Elevated green with no backdrop to
it creates a debt perception problem,and that's one of the things that we
always try to play on. Subtlethings that make the golf course a little
more difficult or can challenge the playerwithout making it really more physically difficult.
And the more you can challenge aplayer's ability to feel a shot, the
(00:42):
better you can make the golf courseinteresting to play, but yet not a
lot more physically difficult. And elevatedbeans from those backdrop is one thing.
You know, how you position bunkersin a fairway to create death perception instances.
To cut a bunker on the shortside of a whole, and it's
a big long and you put onejust ten or fifteen yards longer on the
(01:03):
left side, you make it asmaller bumper, You've created a death perception
issue where that buck on the leftlooks like it's miles further out there,
and it makes a little harder tofeel shot. So every kind of mad
scientist type of things that we workwith. With another interview from the archives
of Golf Smarter, here's your host, Fred Green. Welcome back to Golf
(01:23):
Smarter for members only trip. Well, lad to be here, and I
you know, in between these tworecordings, you mentioned that you're leaving for
China in matter of moments, soyou don't have a ton of time,
and I really appreciate you saying yesto be doing this, So let's just
get right to it, and whenyou're talking about golf course design and what
(01:44):
kind of impact it has on theaverage golfer. Now, before I leave
this last topic, when you weredesigning the Tribute down in the Colony,
Texas and you were recreating your favoriteScotland holes, I do imagine that I've
never played in Scotland, but Iwould think that a lot of the golf
(02:05):
courses there are pretty much dictated bythe not just the terrain, but the
weather. Absolutely. I mean thewind is one of the more prevalent factors,
and you know obviously over there it'snot one hundred and seven degrees in
July. You know, the bigdifference between Scotland and Dallas can be the
(02:30):
extreme heat, but from a playingstandpoint, the more critical element is wind.
And you know, there's a lesserelement into the fact that when you
know it's hot out and you ask, the ball can sometimes travel further and
so forth, but it's not thatbig of a fact that compared to the
(02:51):
wind. So you know, thebiggest things that we tried to recreate there
from the playing conditions perspective is makingsure that the golf course plays farm and
fast, because you know, that'ssuch a big part of the way that
the strategy of those courses work andselling is how the ball can bounce,
how you can use the ground torun sh up from the greens and you
(03:14):
know, someone last I repoles fromover there are the ones where you don't
fly the ball to the hole.You've got to land the short, you've
got to creatively use the slopes thatwere built in to get the certain fein
locations, and so that that wasa central part of the design at the
Tribute. So you're telling me whenI it doesn't play like a parkland course,
(03:38):
that's prevalent throughout the United States.So when I get a chance to
go out and play the Tribute,I should be thinking of laying up a
lot instead of trying to hit thegreens. Is this what you're telling me,
Well, you don't necessarily have tolay out, but when you're hitting
a shot into the green, youdon't necessarily have to fly to the green.
Okay, the benefit is in usingthe slopes, you know. The
(04:02):
sixth tol at the Tribute, forinstance, is if my recreation or my
interpretation attribute to one of the holesat Microhanish on the up in the northwest
part of Scotland, and the slopesaround the green allow you to bump the
ball in and use the slopes tofeed it back into the green. And
(04:24):
what as if you try to flyit to the green, you run the
risk of it running through the greenh And it's a little more difficult to
get to some of the pin locationsby flying it because if you even if
the greens are a little softer,but at any given time you've got to
fly to the ball a certain distance. If you run it into the green,
(04:47):
you're margin for arias a little lessbecause the slopes will help contain the
ball. And so that's what Imean by kind of bumping and running shots
in or using the ground, andthat apply it to the whole. So
that's the kind of stuff that absolutelyfascinates me about golf course architecture and design
is using the elements that you haveas strategic approaches for a golf shot,
(05:16):
like elevated greens. And what you'resaying is right, you don't necessarily want
to try to land it on thegreen. You want to get it up
to it. But if you cometoo slow and come up too low,
it's going to fall back. Well, that's the fun thing about golf course
designers. There are really limitless waysin which you can use the ground.
(05:39):
You can use the elements, youcan use the conditions the golf course is
going to be maintained in you know, the the to try to design,
for instance, the same golf courseon bent Grass versus Demoda and so forth.
If you're trying to create the sameplayability, there's got to be changes
in the way that the golf coursesbuilt so that those features work the same
(06:01):
way. You know, ben Grassis a totally different playing surface, both
in the way you play shot offof it as compared to the Permuto graphs,
and you know that's changed a littlebit of the years, and in
large measure because wem and fairly isso much tighter than we used to.
But uh, there're just limitless waysin which you can conceive how a player
(06:26):
is going to play the whole,and how multiple players can play the whole.
I'm a big proponent of giving asmany players as many options to play
the whole, not only just becauseit will fit their playing style, but
because it allows every player of equalscoring ability the ability to compete with each
(06:48):
other. One of the things thatI've am, you know, dismade about
with the game of to day ishow long we're making golf courses, not
only on tour but for the averageplayer. It really has become a game
more about power in certain respects.And when the game is about scoring,
(07:08):
it's not about how you hit theball, it's about how quickly you get
ball in the whole. And sodesign needs to give players of different abilities
and different approaches to the game optionson how they can play the game,
play each hole and score the thing. Actually, you beat me to it.
I was going to ask the questionabout how does equipment, today's equipment,
(07:31):
and how radically it's changed over thelast five to eight years. How
does that dictate course design? Well, you know, it's there can be
a good argument made for how ithas dictated course design and versus whether or
(07:54):
not course design could create some sortof balance between the equipment today that we
can play with and the players thatplayed today. I mean, you have
the you know, the guys thatare playing today. You know, Tiger
Woods and Dustin Johnson. These guysare athletes. You know, They're not
to say that Nicholason and Tom Watsonand you know, the greats of the
(08:18):
past weren't athletic, but these guyscan swing the club, you know,
so much faster, and they canhit off so much higher, and so
forth, and and golf course designed. The response to it was, let's
challenge those players with greater physical ability, whether it's the physical nature that they
bring the game themselves or what theequipment helps them do physically. And so
(08:43):
we've we've looked at challenging players physicallymore so than strategically and mentally in a
lot of ways, you know,and in a lot of ways, it
didn't make sense because if you wantto challenge the longer player. Making the
golf course longer is not necessarily challengingthem, it's playing into their hands.
(09:05):
What you find challenges the longer playerbetter is not always being able to use
their legs, and then also havingto compete against the broader range of players.
If you take a one hundred andforty four player field on the PGA
Tour and you've got fifteen power playersand the golf course is seventy seven hundred
yards long, you don't have manyof those players in one hundred and forty
(09:28):
four player field that can really competephysically and so. But whereas when you
get a golf course that's you know, around seven thousand yards, you know,
also depending on how firm and Fascettplays, how many shots the players
is required to play, you bringa lot of players back into the game.
(09:50):
I think the setup that Troon,excuse me, Turnberry have Watson almost
one is a perfect example of howthe golf course was there to challenge the
player's ability to score and not whatthey could do physically. Yeah, I've
played courses that are not necessarily long, but it's very obvious that if you
(10:11):
don't have a good short game.It's going to eat you alive. I
mean, it's going to put youin a position where this is you know,
you you get onto the green andyou go, oh my gosh,
this is definitely a three part greenin possibly four exactly. And you know,
and even at that, you know, the ultimate golf course is going
(10:31):
to be one that doesn't overly penelotsomeone with you know, an average short
game. It's it's one where theplayers kind of called on to be able
to execute a broad range of shotsso that no one's strength they had will
dominate the golf course, but noone weakness that they have can be overcome
(10:52):
in some way if they know howto use their strength in a way to
overcome certain weaknesses. And that's whatwe're looking at when we're looking at and
when we're designing golf courses, iswe don't try to focus on on making
the golf course about anyone's strength.We're trying to balance the golf course out
(11:16):
so that the guy that can hitit a long way has got to advantage
on certain holes that on other holes, he's got to be more accurate,
he's got to be a little moreprecise. He may have to use a
short game, he may have todo other things within the game to being
able to excel in the golf courseas a whole. And that's really where
(11:41):
golf design needs to fall in termsof being able to make the game enjoyable
for all play levels and then alsowhen it comes to championship golf, being
able to benefy the player you canshoot the best four. How much pressure
(12:03):
is there from developers, the peoplewith the money who are coming to hire
you saying I need a golf course. I want a golf course here,
I want it to be on thetour. There is there a lot of
that saying that this course is you'vegot to design this, We've got to
get this one on the tour becauseit's going to help me get my money
back type of thing. Well,there's there's two two kind of pressures that
(12:26):
you know, you run into that. I mean, the course we're doing
in China right now is one thatthey hope to be able to host championships.
And when we did Old American,there was some pressure there that we
wanted to eventually host something like theUS Public Samateur or the US Amateur.
Uh you know, uh, youknow, Old American was actually recently they
(12:50):
listed four courses that should host surventsaround the country. Awesome, it was
one of those that was included inthat. West Congratulations and yeah, that
was pretty kind of cool. Yeah. The other pressure is to make it
something a standard. You know,in China, for instance, if the
golf course isn't Part seventy two,if it's Part seventy one or par seventy,
(13:11):
the culture of the season is alesser golf course. And you know,
in the United States it's been youknow, the golf course has got
to be seven thousand hours long tobe seen as a championship golf course.
And the perception is that if itcan host a tour event, or if
we can host a tour event,you know, if it's long enough,
if it's of a standard quality,that it will help to attract players and
(13:39):
help the golf course be sustainable.So you have to balance that to some
extent, you know, the Chinafinish, there was a bit of kind
of a funny story about that andthat the land we had to work with
the way that everything worked out,my original design was at Part seventy one,
(14:00):
and uh, that's just the waythe wholes sit on the land.
The best and the and the ownerwas adamant that we had a part seventy
two. And so what we endedup doing was making that whole an optional
par four par three, kind oflike George Thomas had done, uh a
number of golf courses that he isback in the twenties, the guy that
(14:20):
was on the area in La CountryClub in bel Air, and so we
were able to keep it apart freefor from the backbie, but for the
number it's a short par four.And so that's how we, you know,
sometimes balance that pressure. M hm. How often do you have to
(14:43):
design a course or not even howoften? What kind of demands are there
is that you design a course oryou design a hole for playability versus maintenance.
Well, it's uh, playability isnot necessarily always pitted against maintenance,
(15:07):
you know. Challenge sometimes can bepitted against maintenance, and it depends on
how you define playability. That thewell, we always have to be aware
that our client is that X amountof dollars to be able to sustain the
golf course for a maintenance perspective,and so you know, some of our
(15:30):
clients, you know, they'll havean unlimited maintenance budget. Some of them
are in markets where they're not exactlysure where that may fall, and we
have to be cognizant of that sothat when we design the golf course,
the maintainability can be flexible in someways. If we've got a project where
it's in a new market and youknow ten years from now the maintenance puget
(15:52):
may be cut by twenty percent,we've got to be aware that we don't
want the golf course at that kidof then have to be redesigned or not
maintained to a different standard because itcan't maintain it all. But the big
thing that we have the ability towork with if you're creative enough, is
to design a golf course that thesetup can dictate how playable it is,
(16:15):
how challenging it is, versus howmaintainable it is. It's completely possible to
build a golf course that is highlymaintainable. But if you go to rough
a little bit, you get thefairways a little farmer, you get the
greens a little faster. If you'veimparted enough subtlety into the golf course to
make those really increase the challenge level, then you can build a golf course
(16:42):
that's adaptable and it can go theother way too. For instance, if
to make it a little more playablefor the average player, if you cut
the rough you wide in the fairwaysa little bit, or slow the greens
towns offer them up a little bit, it becomes more playable. What are
your favorite mm hmm, Well,we'll call them features, your favorite design
(17:03):
features. I mean, as agolfer, I call them distractions. But
you know, whether they be fairwaybunkers, green side bunkers, water,
elevated greens, what are the featuresthat you you know, I guess that
is your signature. Oh, youknow, Fred k we have a signature
(17:25):
in that way. You know.It all depends on the land in a
lot of respects. And and wedo start every project by trying to work
towards some sort of uh concept,whether you call it a theme. And
you know, and when I saytheme, it doesn't necessarily mean a visual
(17:45):
thememore a there's a story behind itas much as we are looking at the
way the features will be built.You know, we're doing a project.
We've got a number of projects rightnow where we've got you know, five
different bunker styles. I mean fromdoing a restoration of book collar in Dallas
Forward doing a chilling hat style bunkerthat's got a little more got more capes
(18:07):
and bays in it, to apremature restoration up in Northeast Oklahoma where he
had originally done grass space bumpers withvery little shape to him and sand in
the bottom to the Old American,which is more links like in terms of
you know, I say Lenk forme, more like Irish links like where
(18:29):
your bumpers are a little ragged edgeand so forth. So you want to
be able to adapt to the siteand the ability to have more of a
broad creative range on how you usethose features is important. Now, how
you use those features, Ken getsinto what I think your question was mostly
about him as to how do Iuse the features and situateate that it enhances
(18:55):
will play the game. And youknow, for instance, and elevated green
with no backdrop to it creates adebt perception problem. And that's one of
the things that we always try toplay on is subtle things that make the
golf course a little more difficult,or it can sounds the player without making
it really more physically difficult. Andthe more you can challenge a player's ability
(19:17):
to feel a shot, the betteryou can make the golf course interesting to
play, but yet not a lotmore physically difficult and elevated beans when those
backdrop is one thing. You know, how you position bunkers in a fair
way to create death perception. Forinstance, if you put a bunker on
the short side of a hole andit's a big, long bunker, and
(19:41):
you put one just you know,ten or fifteen yards longer on the left
side and you make it a smallerbunker, you've created a death perception issue
where the bunk on the left lookslike it's miles further out there, and
it makes a little harder to feela shot. So those are kind of
the mad scientist type things that wework on that you probably laugh behind your
(20:02):
back. What do you mean feelyou mean for the golfer when they're standing
there addressing, looking at the shot, deciding what they have to do.
Is that what you mean by feela shot right? And you know the
the just think of it this way. I mean, when you when you
hit an eight iron, if youstand on a range and you're trying to
hit your eight one hundred and fortyyards. If you're on the range and
(20:23):
you've got a perfect level lie,there's no wind. You can, with
a lot of practice and skill,can retreat that shot the way you can
hit it one hundred and thirty fiveone hundred and forty five yards. But
you get out on a golf courseand you end up with enough to a
lie or down the side of alie, the greens thirty feet below or
(20:45):
thirty feet above you, the onesthat your baskets in your face. You
can't just judge strictly on distance.You have to kind of feel that shot.
How long it took me to figurethat out? Yeah, And so
the cue that we can throw outthere's golf course architects can either sometimes encourage
(21:07):
your ability to feel a shot,or we can make it more of a
challenge to be able to feel ashot. And it doesn't go to just
distances as well. It can goto whether or not you want to favor
the right shot. You know,if a player can move the ball right
right to left, it may youknow, we may build a hole that
looks like a right left shot.It's going to feel more it's going to
(21:29):
feel more comfortable to that, Whereaswe can create a hole that looks more
like the left the right shot,and you know, for a player that
plays the ball right to left,that hole feels less. You mentioned earlier
about if if a course is apar seventy or seventy one, you said,
(21:49):
but in China that they think it'sa lesser of a golf course.
Yeah. I can see that.I mean, I can see it's like,
oh, it's only part seventy one, but it just means there's one
less par five, there's only oneless part three. Basically, it depends.
You know, we we've done alot of part seventy ones recently and
(22:10):
in large measures because of the waythe land works are and so forth.
And I'm also a big fan of, uh having more than four part three's
on a golf course. You know, the fifth part three you had a
lot of varieties of golf course.Uh. You know, I mentioned in
the last episode about the rhythm ofthe golf course and the way that the
golf course flows. And you know, I'm a big proponent making every hole
(22:36):
feel a little different. And it'sharder to make two part fours feel different
than it is if you have apar three falling a par four, just
simply because of the length of thehole in the way that you're going to
play a shot, and so weoften will we'll do that well, you
know we want to we'll make apart seventy one, not assuily by one
less par five and one more parthree, and so, you know,
(23:02):
it really comes down to the qualityof the golf course. I mean,
one of my favorite golf courses inthe world is one of Moress in probably
Rhode Island. It's an old DonaldRoss course that they played in Northeast a
mater On and it's of course sixtynine wow, but it's it's it's a
great golf course. Wow. Iplayed of course Seviano Links up in Corner,
(23:23):
California. I just posted a videoon YouTube about it. And it's
a John Daily design, so it'svery long, but there's three par threes
and three par fives on each side. Mm hmm. And I found that
to be really entertaining. Yeah,you know, as long as those wholes
(23:45):
fit to land and they create moreinterest in the way that the course is
played. But that's great. Idon't think there should be any standards as
to having you know, third partpretty six on both sides, and or
you know that you have to havefour part fives and four part three,
(24:08):
and they don't need to be inany sort of order. You know Capala
where they played it the years,part seventy three, And that's because when
they'll they'll pour in Prenchhall buildment,they have an extra poar five that sit
into the landscape. So yeah,I find it far more. I found
(24:29):
it far more entertaining to have thatkind of variety. You know. It's
like when you come par four,part four, part four, it's like,
just hit it, just hit itfar, and then you know,
set yourself up. And I don'tnecessarily like pulling out the driver every time.
I like teeing off with the threewood occasionally and setting myself up for,
you know, a shot that I'mgoing to strategically be more comfortable with
(24:51):
hitting it one hundred and twenty fiveyards, you know, versus one hundred
and sixty yards or I like thatkind of variety. Yeah, it's it's
you know, the variety is isthe most important part about keeping the golf
course interesting. Yeah, and soit's it's virale and what brings the average
(25:11):
golfer back again and again is itinteresting or is it scoring? Is like
Okay, I can beat this course, I'm coming back or this is such
a challenge, like golf is initself, this is such a challenge.
I got to come back and tryto, you know, beat this beast.
I think, you know, forthe average player, it's it's you
know, it's it's can be alot of different things. You know,
(25:33):
it can be scoring, it canbe the visual nature of the golf course,
it can be the interesting shots thatthey have to play, and so
you know, it can be thewhite variety of things. I mean,
it's one of the great things aboutthe game is that every player is going
to bring their own perspective to thegolf course and what gets pro juices flowd
(25:57):
you know, typically for the averageplayer, and when we're design on the
golf course and you know, tomake sure that the average player can have
fun. And you know, twentyyears of doing this, the feedback that
I get is less about scoring andit's less about visual as much as it
is about constant variety within the golfcourse. That they're never having to play
(26:22):
a sainshot, that they're always havingto do something different, and that's that's,
you know, the most important thing. And at the same time,
you don't want to beat the averageplayer up. I mean, you don't
want that. You don't want toten handicap going out there and not being
able to dig niney Will they walkaway from the course going I hate this
(26:45):
place. Yeah they can't. Yeah, but it's you know, interest is
more important than anything, and thatwas reinforced last weekend we opened of course
called Turtle Duns and Ocapoco, andI was very interested to see what the
players had to say afterwards. Wehad about one hundred players play that day,
(27:07):
and I've stuck around and talked toa lot of them. And while
a lot of them would say,you know, I've shot lowly in May
indicap, you know I really enjoyed. The main thing that was always giving
back was that every hole had adifferent feel, and I was always interested
in what I was doing. That'sfabulous. That's important, Yeah, because
(27:30):
so often when you see websites,you read reviews of golf courses, they
talk about the beauty around it,and it's like, really, that's the
best you've got is that it's sucha beautiful play which listen, I love
playing on places that are visually spectaculararound the course, or the wildlife that's
flying or running by. But stillI think you're right. The variety of
(27:52):
shots that you have to take makesyou know, the more clubs you can
use in your bag, the moreentertaining your day is going to be.
Yeah, it's you know, it'splaying on on site right by the ocean
or you know, there's there's obviousinterest in that. But you know,
one of my favorite golf courses inthe world too, there's a garden city
(28:17):
up a long island and you know, it's in the middle of town.
There's you know, there's nothing aroundit to really see that. They'd be
on the last cultures. Golf coursesyou'd call beautiful from an aesthetic perspective,
but it's it's beautiful from the standpointthat, uh, you're constantly being confronted
with having to play different shops andthose are the golf courses that tend to
(28:41):
stand the test of time better.M hm. Do you have time for
one more question? Or do Ihave to invite you to come back again?
I got time for one more Doesthat mean you're not going to come
back? Well, I'll come backto that. I got to okay the
difference and hopefully this is an easyanswer. What's the different between restoration,
renovation, and reconstruction on a golfcourse, when you get involved in a
(29:03):
project, well, renovation is isreally trying to put the golf course back
into the state it was before itdeteriorated in some way. Renovation, you
know, can also it can mosttimes mean just maintenance related things. For
(29:26):
instance, the features of a golfcourse really have wife lands. They don't
last wherever. You know, bunkeris not going to function the way you
want it to forever. Teas don'tstay level forever, greens won't grow grass
and not as maintainable as you wantedto be forever as well. So renovation
(29:48):
oftentimes just means, you know,the story, or putting those things back
into a way that they can functionproperly. Restoration is more about putting it
back into a state that it wasin that was some form of higher design,
some form of higher functionality, someform of higher historic quality. So
(30:15):
we're not only making the feature itselfmore functional, we're also introducing the way
that it was intended to be playedin some cases, the way it was
intended to look. And too oftentimeswhat we get caught up in with restoration
is putting it back the way thatit was, instead of understanding why the
(30:40):
way it was. For instance,that you can put a green back to
the way it was in the nineteentwenties that possibly might not be cusible at
today's green speeds. But if youunderstand why the green that was not the
way it was, why there wasa backshelf on a part five that required
you to land the shot short andbomp it up to back ten location,
you can restore it in such away that modern player can experience the golf
(31:03):
course the way it was intended tobe. And that's really what restoration should
be about. Reconstruction is can takeon a lot of different forms, right,
I mean it can be everything fromcompletely rebuilding a golf course in a
different routing. It can be takinga feature on a golf course that historically
(31:23):
or to day doesn't function properly ordidn't function properly and reconstructing it in such
a way that has more interest inplace better in the modern times. A
lot of times reconstruction will go torebranding the golf course in such a way
that they can open themselves up toa broader marketing field. Absolutely fascinating trip.
(31:47):
I again, I really appreciate yougiving me this much time and I
wish you great success, continued success, and that you become a legend so
we can talk about you for yearsto come and your courses, and please
safe travels and good luck in theFar East. Thanks Hm.
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