How The PGA Tour Impacts Golf Course Design featuring Architect Tripp Davis

Golf Course Architect Tripp Davis talks about some of his unique projects, the state of course architecture, and how the PGA Tour has affected the demands on new course construction. Part 2: How understanding course design can lower your scores.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to Golf Smarter Mulligans, yoursecond chance to gain insight and advice from
the best instructors featured on the GolfSmarter podcast. Great Golf Instruction never gets
old. Our interview library features hundredsof hours of game improvement conversations like this

(00:20):
that are no longer available in anypodcast app. The excitement level on the
PGA TiO in terms of the numberof players that had golfers around the world
can identify with, and the wordexcites new people into the game and certainly
doesn't hurt I think from a golfcourse construction perspective, you know, in
general, I think what it doesfollow more so than anything as the economy.

(00:43):
The last room really prior of thelate fifties early sixties was in the
twenties, and they're another economic thanin the United States that time frame.
Actually, you know, we hadBobby Jones and Walter Hagen and so forth.
But you know, if you lookat the period of the thirties and
forties and even early fifties when youhad Hoping Snide and mister Nelson, there

(01:06):
was a broad interest in the gamefollowing those guys, and you didn't see
much in the way golfers developments couldn'ttell me what they do? Why'd you
refer to him as mister Nelson andthe other guys by their first name?
With another interview from the archives ofGolf Smarter, here's your host, Fred
Green. Welcome back to Golf Smarter. Trip, How are you. I'm
doing quite well. How are you. It's been a while since you've been

(01:27):
on the show, and for alot of our listeners who've never met you
before, Trip was like on oneof the first couple episodes and was I
think maybe the first golf architect thatI ever had a chance to talk to
at length. So it's worth havingyou back because of your insights on golf

(01:48):
design. So it's great to haveyou. Well, it's good to be
here. We've you know, we'vebeen busy thankfully since that thought. Well,
that's a good thing in this uhthese days, for somebody to be
busy, especially in this industry.Right well, the you know, the
the economy has really affected new coursework in the United States. There's really

(02:10):
you know, I've only heard ofI think three new golf courses that are
doing in the US right now.But the renovation renovation restoration market in the
US, even though it's slowed insome ways, especially some of the private
clubs that that we've worked with fora long time, that market is still

(02:32):
and is still going to some excess, and in large measure because as the
economy has done what it's done,the competition for new members is higher,
and so they have to make surethat they use their capital in such a
way that they keep good enough tobe able to maintain retain existing numbers and

(02:59):
attract new and there's space to stayfor the James. When there's only three
new projects that you've heard of goingon in the United States, are those
resort courses, private courses, publiccourses. Who's who's building right now in
the US? Well, as Iunderstand, there's one project that many Americans
are doing as part of a casinoin Washington. There seems to be a

(03:23):
lot of those going up. Huh. Well, I mean I've seen a
lot of golf courses associated with theIndian resorts. Well, they've put money
and and it's an attraction for youknow, largely for their casinos. And
so we've come one in Oklahoma thatwe did seven years ago now and it's

(03:45):
a it's an attraction to the casinos, and because they're turning such you know,
kind of unbelievable amount of money intheir casinos, they can afford,
and so it helps the revolving doorthat they But the other two that I'm
aware of, one of them inFlorida, which is a private club.

(04:08):
Uh, and then the other onethat I know of is in California,
which is another private club. Yeah, or somebody's own backyard type of thing,
like a justin Timberlake building his owngolf course type of thing, right
right. And there may be someothers out there that I don't know about.
But you know, talking to alot of the builders and other people

(04:28):
in the industry, those are theindustry that I'm aware of. And you
say you talk to builders, thatthat's different than the architects. Right there,
there's there're the architects, and they'rethe people who do the actual construction
work. And those who you're talkingto the builders, right right, And
and you know a lot of themeasures. The reason why we're talking to
builders a lot is because they're callingus wondering if they we haven't worked on
me out and so uh, youknow, you hear a lot about what's

(04:56):
going on through them, you know, and U you hear from the different
people in the industry. But theUnited States golf course builders are really struggling
right now because you had ten yearsago, you had one hundred different companies
out there competing for a decent amountof work. And I need that.

(05:18):
Well, you had hunting companies thatnumbers cut and cut substantially. But sure
you're talking about in dollar vallume,we're talking about ten percent of the work
that was there ten years ago.Wow, And they must have I would
imagine that builders versus architects must havea tremendous overhead. They do. I

(05:38):
mean just simply because they're having tocarry so much more insurance, they're having
to keep on larger staffs. Theequipment, ownership, maintenance, and so
forth is significantly higher. I'm curious. Will say there's a builder based in
the north West. Well, let'sjust say this southwest of the United States,

(06:01):
and he gets a project in theMidwest. Does he rent all that
gear when you know, to movethe earth or does he bring his own
with him? It depends on thecompany. Some of the bigger companies will
have their own machinery. Wow.Some of the smaller ones will will typically
rent. You know, even someof the bigger companies now have deluded themselves
a lot of their machinery and theprojects they are doing. They're renting a

(06:25):
get better the equipment. And thismakes a lot of sense because you know,
if you can sell off part ofhis assets to keep your your cash
higher than you can survive through thesetimes. And when you did get a
project, you just build the costof the rent into your cost of your
project. And when you say thesetimes, I know that the you know,

(06:45):
the world, let alone the UnitedStates, but the global economy is
struggling all over the place. Doyou see the golden years like we just
had over the lot you were talkingabout the last ten years and golf course
a new construction. Do you seethat ever coming back? Well, it's
it's hard to say. You know, I've talked to some architects that were

(07:11):
practicing back in the late sixties earlyseventies when you know, we went through
a similar situation where there was newthere was no new force work basically late
sixties, early seventies, and LesJones, for one, was telling me
that when he struck out on hisown, you know, there wasn't a
lot of work out there at all. He said, you know, it
wasn't nearly as bad as it isnow, but it was pretty bad.

(07:33):
And there was you know, thediscussion then was, well, you know,
it's never going to be the sameas it once was, because you
know, in the late fifties,early sixties there was a there was a
big boom and golf course destruction.And when we went through it again in
the late eighties, you know,early to admit to almost late nineties,

(07:54):
and so it's hard to say.I mean, you know, the reason
why people were built and golf coursesback then in both of those time periods
was largely real estate driven. Anduh, unless our population slows down,
you are we're going to be buildingmore homes at some point in the future.
And and uh, it's hard tosay whether or not it will come

(08:18):
back in the same way that itdid. You know, the game of
golf itself has got to continue togrow in order for there to be a
demand. But I think that,you know, as much as anything,
I think what may change for itis that instead of building new ones,
we may be going back into theolder ones and completely rebuilding them and reconstruction

(08:43):
projects. So we just finished onein Mexico where uh we took two older
golf courses and build a completely newgolf course where they didn't have a need
for two golf courses. And uhuh So I think you're going to see
more of that in the future.It's it's really hard to say whether an

(09:03):
actual new construction is ever going torebound to the point that it has been,
but I think rebuilding older courses basicallyin the new golf courses, who's
in a lot more active. Youwere saying that when he got started,

(09:26):
you said, REECEE Jones. Rightwhen he was getting started in the sixties,
it was tough for him, andit's probably not so hard for him
anymore. But anybody getting started inany industry is going to be struggling until
you establish your name, which hedid, and now he probably is thinking
that business is great. Well,yeah, I mean he you know,
he re built a great name forhimself, and you know he's been able

(09:48):
to carry that over into other marketshere and China is a big market.
Now. We've got one project overthere right now, and Reef is very
active over there, and the wholeJones family seems to be busy all the
time, right, yeaes, missmister Jones Jr. Is Uh. The

(10:11):
project that we have, we actuallycompeted against him to get it, and
he he's got a base in Japanand uh they do a lot of work
nature, but he always has andfor that job. Yeah, we were
fortunate that, you know, we'rea smaller company congression, it was more

(10:37):
of a we're going to give youmore attention because we only do one or
tenie courses at a time, whereashe's got you know, uh, I
think right now they've got ten oreleven going around the world, plus the
competing for the Olympics projects. Andso that's you know, where we fit

(10:58):
into the niche in the marketplaces iswith clients that are more concerned with the
quality of the project and really aremore comfortable having someone that's going to be
on site constantly and more involved.Let's whereas you know, mister Jones,

(11:20):
they've developed the machinery to be ableto produce good work and more maths and
more quantity. Our focus is alittle bit more on one or two projects
at the time, and so youknow, it just comes down to sometimes
the main recognition versus what we haveto offer in terms of greater commitment and

(11:43):
time for projects. Sure, AndI would think that a property owner in
their marketing would want to weigh thefact, do we want to pay this
much so we can say that wehave a Robert and Jones Junior course,
or do we just say that wehave a new course and you don't necessarily
know that it's going to be aTrip Davis or a Trip Davis Associates course.
Right, Well, you know,we're The thing that's kind of neat

(12:07):
about the China market is that rightnow there, you know, it's a
it's the same way we were backin the twenties in the US, the
nineteen twenties, and that really theylearn any names out there? Uh you
know that obviously in China when yougo there, they're shown names that the
developers have heard of, you know, the Michelaces and mister Jones and so
forth, and so the name willhelp them in some respects, but it's

(12:31):
it's less of a name thing asmuch as it is a quality and commitment
level element because over there they canthey can sell me as the greatest thing
since like bread, and because theydon't know the names over there, So
I'm competing a little bit less againstnames than than I had to in the

(12:54):
US epic till now, and we'retrying to build their name and we've done
a lot of good work and soyou know, recent projects in the US
and one in Mexico have helped uselevate name recognition. But you know,
mister Jones has been at it fortwice as long as I have. Is
the name recognitions obviously going to bebetter? Yeah? Now, when you

(13:18):
mentioned that the boom in golf architectureand construction a new construction, there was
a boom in the fifties sixties,there was a lot of real estate being
developed. There was also a boomyou said in around the nineties. I
see that. It's interesting what it'sa chicken in the egg situation of that

(13:39):
time in the fifties sixties, thatwas when Palmer and Nicholas were at their
peak. In the nineties you hadTiger Phil Greg Norman. You know,
does construction follow the PGA tour excitementor does it promote more interests with golf
courses going up that people are playingand then all of a sudden these guys
become superstars. What do you thinkfrom your perspective. Where that comes from,

(14:03):
Well, I think the the excitementlevel on the PGA too, in
terms of the number or the typesof players, the number of players that
that golfers around the world can identifywith in the or it excites new people
into the game. Uh, certainlydoesn't hurt. I think from a golf
course construction perspective, I think itis a minor factor. I think the

(14:28):
economy as a whole is a muchstronger factor. But it certainly doesn't hurt.
And you know, I think weyou know, when Palmer and Nicholas
were uh and Gary player at thatkind of going after each other. Uh,
it certainly developed a more worldwide andbroader appeal to the game just simply

(14:50):
because people wanted to follow the dramabehind it. And you have the same
thing, uh, you know withTiger Woods coming out, and how he
introduced more peo put through the game, especially getting younger players excited to play.
And so it doesn't hurt. Butyou know, in general, I
think what it does follow more sothan anything as the economy. You know,

(15:13):
the last boom really prior to theyou know, late fifties early sixties
was in the twenties and there's anothereconomic boom in the United States, and
so you know, in that timeframe, actually you know, we had Bobby
Jones and Walter Hagen and so forth. But you know, if you look
at the period in the thirties andthe forties and even early fifties when you

(15:35):
had Hogan Snead and mister Nelson,there was a broad interest in the game
following those guys that you didn't seemuch in the way of golfless developments to
the economy. What do they do? Why did you refer to him as
mister Nelson and the other guys bytheir first name? Did you forget its?

(15:56):
Well, I got no mister Nelson. And we read Dead Preston Trail
in Dallas, Texas in two thousandand eight and two thousand and nine,
and that was, of course thatmister Nelson helped design with Ralph Plumber,
and he was one of the foundingmembers and and so before we did the

(16:17):
project, before we started design,I got to know him and spent some
time with him and talked to himabout what we were going to do,
and never met anyone like him,And there's a definite reference there that I
had for him. I never hadto know mister snead or mister hugging.
But and was he mister Nelson tohis face? You never called him byron

(16:42):
No, I called him mister Nelson. Wow. But I grew up in
South Georgia, and anytime I didn'tsay mister and missus, I have my
hair cluss pretty old that my dad. So it's a different world today.
Yeah, I'm trying to I havetwo daughters and I'm trying to get in

(17:03):
and do the same thing instead ofsaying you know, yeah, or I
haven't said yes ma'am, yes sir, and talk to people about their last
name as well, you know,mister and missus. But yeah, it's
here, Yeah, it's that's theworldwide respects. Yeah. Well, yeah,

(17:26):
we are definitely part of a differentworld. Got an email the other
day about texting for senior citizens,how kids have their own language, you
know, L O L and allthese things, and one of them was
d w I driving while incontinent.So I'm going to be coming down to

(17:51):
Dallas. We've talked about this before, but I want to bring it back
up. I'm going to be comingdown to Dallas for April first weekend,
and you've got two courses down.If anybody's down there and maybe want to
play on Sunday afternoon, maybe youshould email me, But I'm going to
be uh. You have two coursesthat I've always been fascinated about, and
we've talked about them in the past. I'd like to bring them back up

(18:12):
again that you did near Dallas inthe Colony, Texas. The Tribute an
old American and these were not normal, Hey here's a piece of land,
just go ahead and make a golfcourse type of These were more thematic,
right well, the Tribute is definitelymore somatic. The Tribute we opened in

(18:33):
two thousand and When we were hiredto do that project, we had you
know, there was another project wherewe were fortunate to beat out some of
the big names to get it.And one of the reasons why is the
concept that we threw out and thenthat ended up implementing was to build holes
that were in the style of someof my favorite poles from Styleland and go

(18:59):
into into eighteen holes that worked togethera lot of the golf courses that had
been done before, where they weremore copies of particular holes. I found
that the golf course didn't have acertain flow. It didn't have a certain
rhythm to it. It was justa collection of eighteen holes, and any
great golf course has got a certainflow rhythm to so that was something we

(19:23):
were trying to implement. So thetribute is is very similar to when Charles
Blair McDonald back at in nineteen inthe early nineteen Hunters built the National Golf
Links. It was built and patternedafter as tributes to his favorite holes from
around the world. And that's whatwe did with a tribute. How hardful

(19:45):
was that for you to the owners? Well, at the time, it
wasn't that. You know, thatwas right when the two eighteen courses were
coming out, Royal Links and LasVegas had been built, and that was
kind of a trend at the time, and so that was something that you

(20:11):
know, in terms of selling itwas. It made it a little easier
then than it probably would now ifthere were any golf courses people. But
the the trick though, and thereason why it's been ranking the top one
hundred public courses in the US isbecause it's not just a collection of eighteen
holes. It really does feel likeone golf course. Awesome. What about

(20:37):
old Americans, Old American is verydifferent in that it's still themed after an
early American style of architecture that wehad always intended to do two golf courses
there. And Jack Matthews who isthe developer of both golf courses, and
he does a lot of real estateothers for real estate development, and it's

(21:02):
very big on having those themed insome way. He bought up Billies Country
Western Bar to downtown Dallas. Youknow, that's obviously a theme pos deal
as well. And you know,the original concept was that the first course
would be I'd look back in commonearly you know as Scottish courses, whereas

(21:25):
the second course would be I lookback in common early American courses. What
happened to the game when it cameover to the United States, And the
second course was not intended to beplays on individual holes as much as it
was the style of architecture in thenineteen twenties, and so the golf courses

(21:47):
intended to have that feel. Andthat's type of optional in its strategy that
you found with golf courses that werebuildment twenties, like Crystal Downs up in
Michigan and Did's National Golf Links,which was built part of the twenties,
but that was the intent for thesecond course, and we had a better

(22:11):
piece of land to work with.And Justin Leonard was also someone that I
got involved because of his love ofonly American architects and the fact that he's
from Dallas. It helped from amarketing perspective as well. But it was
unique because Justin really shared a lotof his experiences playing those old golf courses

(22:33):
made the championships, and I gotvery, very involved in the process.
It wasn't just something he put hisname on. What do you mean by
he shared a lot of his knowledgeon the design of the golf course and
his experience of playing those courses.I mean, because you've played those courses
too. But how does playing competitivelyat that level differ on your view of

(22:55):
the course? Well, you know, I've played competitively in college and still
play some amateur golf, and youdefinitely look at a golf course differently when
you're playing it as a competitor.At then you would just out playing it
for fun, and once you reallypick up more than anything those subtleties,

(23:15):
because those little subtleties in the waythat the green may swept, in the
way that the whole may be anglesimpact the way you're going to score,
and when you've got to add themup at the end of the round to
find your name and it gets putup on a board. In Justine's case,
you know, there is a differencebetween winning a British Open or winning
a PGA or winning a US Open. The subtleties really come into greater focus

(23:41):
under those circumstances that they would ifyou just went out and looked at things
and played the golf course. Ispent a lot of time walking around and
looking at courses and setting some ofthe old courses in and I really try
when I'm doing that to look athow the subtle feats of a whole impact
the way that the player is goingto play the hole, and how it's

(24:03):
can affect scoring, because that's,you know, is more important to the
longevity of that feature or that holeor that golf course than just how cool
it works. Yeah, and Iwant to if you don't mind, I
would love to have you come backfor one of our members only episodes on
our next episode, if you canhang a bit with me more. I

(24:27):
really want to talk about design strategyand what it is that you look at
at a hole and put yourself inthe let's say non competitive the amateur player,
and put yourself in their mind whenyou're designing a hole and how that
works for you. And then howdo we translate that when we're out of
a golf course. Can you spendmore time talking about this? Sure?

(24:51):
Awesome? Thank you. So whatthat means is that if you are not
subscribed to golf Smarter for members onlyand you want to continue listen listening to
this conversation with Trip Davis, becausenext week is going to be a members
only episode, please keep this listenersupported podcast alive by joining golf Smarter for
members only. Not only will youget a new episode every single week,

(25:15):
you also have complete access to ourarchives of over three hundred different evergreen interviews
of the golf Smarter podcast. Soplease join golf Smarter for members only at
golfsmarter dot com. Trip Davis isat TDA goolf dot net. And I

(25:37):
have so many more questions. Ireally appreciate you spending the time and appreciate
that you are going to be comingback for another episode. Pleuse You're welcome,
Alex forts That's one thing I lovedoing talking about, of course design.
So and when I've got the time, I'm be happy to talk about it.