June 16, 2023 • 31 mins
Jesse Ortiz (formerly) of Bobby Jones Golf discusses the club manufacturing industry and how his small specialty company fits into, and competes with the "big boys". Is it necessary to introduce or market new designs multiple times each year or is it just hype? We also discuss what the consumer should look for in a new club for their game.
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(00:00):
Welcome to Golf Smarter Mulligans, yoursecond chance to gain insight and advice from
the best instructors featured on the GolfSmarter podcast. Great Golf Instruction never gets
old. Our interview library features hundredsof hours of game improvement conversations like this
(00:21):
that are no longer available in anypodcast app. Confidence is everything. I
think you've seen you in the lastseveral years, more people going to hybridge
rather than using a three iron ora four iron, and it's because they
have more confidence in a higher lostedclub that has a longer shaft and gives
them the same distance as the shorteriron that had the little blade. And
(00:47):
you know, you're looking down onthat three or four and it looks like
you're standing on the edge of halfdome. They're looking straight down, and
you have a little bit more confidenceseeing a wider bodied club with a lot
more face angles. So it's allabout confidence, and you get the confidence
partly from practice and also partly fromthe innovations that as clubmakers we've come up
(01:07):
with in the last decade or so. It's really been a great decade of
innovation. But there's only so muchthat we can do now. Under the
USGA restrictions. With another interview fromthe archives of Golf Smarter, here's your
host, Fred Green. Welcome backto the Golf Smarter podcast. Jesse,
(01:27):
Hey, how you doing. I'mdoing so well. Thank you for coming
on being part of our celebration ofthe first three hundred episodes. You have
definitely been not only one who myfavorite people to speak with, but you
were also incredibly gracious and helpful whenwe did an event with our listeners by
coming out and playing golf with usand answering their questions and demoing what was
(01:53):
going on at Bobby Jones Golf atthe time. So thank you. Oh
no, that was a great timefor every I In fact, I remembered
it kind of drizzled that day,didn't it or did it actually rain hard?
I know that we got the roundin, but it was we got
the round in, but barely.I think, yeah, yeah, we
got we got it in. Hadsome hot dogs afterwards, and then did
our recording uh um and still actuallyone of the my friend came and took
(02:16):
photographs of us, and one ofthe best photographs I've ever taken in my
life was the one I have ofthe of you and I together. So
you look, you look fabulous becauseyou're standing next to me. That's why
I'm making I'm making you look.Oh is that what it was? Yeah
to be? So how things goingto Bobby Jones Golf, Well, you
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know, it's kind of this timeof year thinks slow down in the industry.
It's September October really the slowest monthsof the year four play. And
that's because the East coast, theMidwest for it's slowing down at the end
of the season for a lot ofpeople. It's uh, the weather has
changed, it's gotten block colder.Also, football football season, college football
(03:05):
season, and hunting become very prominentin the mid to late fall, and
so a lot of the country kindof hibernates on golf. Out Here on
the West coast, we still canplay, but what's happening is Arizona and
Palm Springs they haven't started up yetbecause they go into overseating in October.
(03:25):
So really mid September through October isthe slowest time of year for play.
In November, that's when the grasscomes back up in Palm Springs, Arizona,
also also in Florida, so golfstarts picking up a bit in the
south in the southern climates that timeof year in November into December, so
(03:49):
right now slow, but I'm busybecause this is the time of year where
you're rushing to get all the newproduct lines set up for introduction, you
know, but on Christmas or January. Yeah. Well, and also luckily
we have a global audience, soI know that my email increases from Australia
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when we go into our winter becausethey're going into their summer and I get
I get a lot of email fromAustralia from people saying, yeah, my
season is getting started, so Iwant to know and like, whoa wait
a minute, You've got me allupside down here literally. Yeah. Um
yeah. So it's interesting you talkabout getting the new product line ready for
(04:32):
launching at the the PGA show,which is in the end of January beginning
of February. I had a conversationwith Tom was Sewn a few episodes back.
Are you familiar with Tom? Aren'tyou? Absolutely? Tom and either
our long time friends, probably thirtyyears. Oh wow, And he was
(04:53):
he was in Marianne. That's whereTom. Tom was from, you know,
I think originally was from Colorado,but spent I believe his teenage years
and his in his twenties here inuh In Marin. And he's one heck
of a drummer too. You know. He he played drums for Steve Miller.
I don't know if you ever toldyou come on, No, it's
(05:13):
a hidden secret from from Tom.It's a it's a little gem. Yeah,
he played, Uh he would playsession and practice uh practice sessions with
Steve Miller. Wow. Oh,I'm going to nail him on that one.
Yeah, he's he's told me hismom lives up in Nevado, which
is the next the next town upfrom me here in San Raphael. And
so you know, we we've threatenedone another to get together, but he's
(05:38):
here coming to see his mom.He doesn't need to see me. It's
you know, but uh yeah,so yeah, he's in Colorado now.
But Tom Um is probably, Iwould think, the leading spokesperson for the
custom club making and Um we talkedabout, you know, all the restrictions
that are that are put on themajor manufacturers club manufacturers, and that actually
(06:01):
most of the money seems to gointo advertising. Far more money goes into
advertising then it goes into R andD because you really can't come up with
new products every six months or everyyear. That's absolutely true. It's uh.
You know, I'm a perfect exampleof that, where the line that
(06:24):
I've had Fred has you know,we've had it for three years now.
That's virtually unheard of. You know, in our industry, people are changing
every six months, sometimes three timesin a year, but certainly, very
very few companies have a line,the model line that doesn't change every year.
(06:44):
You know, I'm kind of unusualbecause I try to stay ahead of
the curves so that our equipment hasa shelf life of at least two,
if not three years. And reallyin the last several years, more than
anything that changes and models have beencosmetic. I mean, the restrictions for
(07:05):
ball velocity off the face of adriver have not changed in the last five
or six years. Yet everyone's gotdifferent models. Well why, well,
it's just another it's another angle toto proplanned obsolescence and get people to believe
that their current clubs are not asgood as the ones that were made or
the ones that they have in theirbag in the last three years. So
(07:29):
Tom is right, there are alot of restrictions and most of the changes
are really cosmetic in the industry.How do you as, if I'm not
mistaken, you're still the CEO ofBobby Jones Golf. Yeah, well,
I'm my actual title, nous vicepresident of the Bobby Jones division of HMX.
(07:51):
Back in January, we merged withthe apparel company them. Yeah,
the Jones family in in Atlanta wantedone master license c to handle or oversee
all the all the licensees with BobbyJones. So there was a fragrance company,
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there was a leather goods company,there was US the equipment company.
There's a company that puts out videosand tapes. They wanted it all into
one umbrella. So we merged inJanuary with the HMX Corporation, which handles
which it's a huge apparel company thatowns Bobby Jones. It owns a Hickey,
(08:35):
Freeman, hartshafter Marks, does TaylorI think it's Austin Ready, does
taylored pr Cardan. There's a lotof brands that they have, So I'm
under that umbrella now, all right. So as a vice president of a
company, especially that's owned by alarger company, I would suspect that they
want to get reports for you onan annual basis on your projections for growth
(08:58):
and how you're going to infiltrate themarket in a larger scale. They have
to answer. I would suspect theyhave to answer to shareholders. I'm guessing,
or is it a privately private company. It's a private company, Okay,
so they don't have to worry aboutshareholders, but they still have to
worry about the bottom line, andthey still want to grow their product line.
(09:18):
And when you have restrictions like that, and you have a product that's
on the market that is relatively unchangedfor as long as it is, how
can you as a businessman, notas a clubmaker, how do you justify
that to them? How do wedeal with that? It's it's difficult.
I mean, you're always trying tothink of coming up with something that's fresh,
(09:41):
something that still remains true to thename or the brand. Bobby Jones.
What I do, Freddy, Itry to make clubs that still have
a classic elegance about them. Butyou've got to have all the high tech
components in there. You've got toyou've got to stay on top of what
are the metals that are out therethat we can use that might be able
(10:03):
to not so much enhance performance,but I'd say enhance the experience or the
enjoyment of the game. I tryto make clubs that are a little easier
to hit but still look good togood players. And it's difficult. You
know, this year, this pastyear, Tailor Mate had a real big
(10:26):
hit with the R eleven. Butreally it's you know, it got a
lot more It got a lot morebuzz because it was a white club than
really for what it was technologically,you know, speaking, So, how
do you how do you react tothat when somebody when somebody comes out with
the exact same club, but theypaint it, they spray paint it white
(10:50):
and bring it out as if they'vethey've found the new secret. How do
you react to something like you rollyour eyes, you start throwing things across
the room. It's like, comeon, people, really, yes and
no? You know, yes,yes, because I know what's going on,
and you know, we're all tryingto make our clubs better looking,
more attractive. We're trying to makethem, uh, you know, a
(11:13):
little bit more more forgiving within therestrictions that are that are laid upon us
by the USGA. But on theother hand, I'm excited because anything that
brings attention or pizzazz or as Iwould say, add spice to the gumbo
in the equipment arena is very welcomebecause under with the economy the way it
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is in golf, you know,plays down, uh, sales across the
board are down. You know,the resorts are struggling. You know,
anytime you've got you can get buzzin the golf industry. It's good for
it's it's good for the industry asa whole. You know, losing Tiger
for the last year and a halfhasn't help ratings and and and it's so
(11:58):
you know, yes, I rolledmy eyes. I know I know what's
what's under the kimono as they say, um technologically speaking, but I also
welcome that there is there is somebuzz around the industry. It's it's interesting
because you talk about how it's supposedto enhance performance, which is not necessarily
(12:24):
the case, and so you wantto enhance the experience, your enhance enjoyment.
And the thing that came to mymind, especially after talking to all
the instructors that I've spoken with,is that I guess the one thing you
really want to enhance is confidence.In a golfer that's right, Well,
that's right. I mean, it'sthere's there, there's probably a lot more.
(12:46):
To paraphrase Woody Hayes when they usedto ask them, the great Ohio
State coach, you know, Woody, why don't you throw the ball more?
Well? Do you? When youthrow the ball, three things can
happen, and two of them arebad. It's kind of the same thing
with the golf. You know.It's there's just so much more bad that
can happen from from striking the golfball then than good. It's it's you
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know, you can top the ball, slice it, hook it, chunk
it. I mean, you know, hitting the perfect shot is extremely rare,
and even when you hit a goodshot, you could always say,
well, gee, it could havebeen better. I didn't quite catch it.
It just I just missed it.So you know, it's, uh,
what we're trying to do is orwhat I try to do. I
(13:31):
do these little videos every month orso. I try to tell people to
get out and play and just enjoybeing out and having fun. You know,
you can't get upset at bad shotsbecause we're not doing this for a
living. You know, we're outthere to have fun, get out and
the outdoors, challenge ourselves, andbad shots are part of the game.
(13:52):
I mean, that's you know thatthat that's kind of a reminder that you
should be practicing a little bit more. Although few of us practice enough to
really to really improve our games.You know, we keep going out there
and playing, and you know,like like Dave Pells would say, you
know, Jesse, I think alot of guys should go to the driving
range and leave you know, theof the fourteen clubs they got in their
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bag, they probably should leave,you know, at least ten of them
in the trunk of the car.Just go out there with your your pitching
ledge and your sand iron and youknow, maybe a nine iron or seven
and just hit those practice with thoseclubs because most of the shots that you
are going to lose are going tobe within a hundred yards and then you
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know, from the greens. Sojust go out and practice the short game.
But very few of us do.We're all out there at the driving
range hitting the big dog and uh, you know, trying to see how
far we can hit it. Andin the end, it's all about it's
still Fred. It's all about gettingthe ball in the hole. That's what
it's all about. Yeah, Andfor some you're right, they grab the
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big dog and getting the ball inthe air. And I guess my marketing
thoughts would be that you want towhen I talk about instilling confidence, it's
the front end of the club.It's like, what club am I going
to reach for that I have totalconfidence in my in every time I grab
that club, every time I swingthat club. Not what happens after I
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swing the club, it's what Ido before I swing the club. And
that's the kind of thing that youwant to a consumer to take with them
absolutely everything. Confidence is everything.I think you've seen, you know,
in the last several years more peoplegoing to hybridge rather than using a three
iron or a four iron. Evenfive irons are starting to get pretty rare
(15:48):
when you go out there and seethe average golf for you know, play
and it's because they've lost They havemore confidence in a higher losted club that
has a longer shaft and gives themthe same distance as the shorter iron that
had the little blade. And youknow, you're looking down on that three
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or four and it looks like you'restanding on the edge of a half dome.
They're looking straight down and and it'syou know, you have a little
bit more confidence seeing a wider bodiedclub with a lot more face angles.
So yeah, it's it's all aboutconfidence. And you get the confidence partly
from practice and also partly from uh, the innovations that as clubmakers we've come
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up with in the last decade orso. You know, it's it's really
been, it's really been a greatdecade of innovation. But you were right,
as you said, as we're talkingabout earlier in the in the podcast,
Um, there's only so much thatwe can do now under under the
USGA restrictions. Yeah, Tom wasSean Again. We're gonna go back to
(17:02):
Tom for a second, because heis, you know, the clubmaker,
the individual clubmaker. They're not thebig manufacturer. Now, your history,
you pretty much came from a smallerenvironment. Your dad. You were an
apprentice to your dad, correct,that's right. Yeah, my dad was
a tool and die maker from theOld Country, which specifically the Basque region
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northern part of Spain, and camehere in the about nineteen fifty fifty one
and then started all of our innineteen sixty. He was a tool and
die maker and he had a friendof his who was working at a place
called a company called Frank Whiston Johnsonthat used to make the ken Venturi Tony
Lima clubs, and he got mydad interested in the clubs, and through
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that association, that's how I endedup. You know, my dad was
make clubs for Tony and Kennon andthat was how my relationship started with ken
Venturie many many years ago. WhenI was a kid at the shop,
it wasn't like a ping or aCallaway. It wasn't one of the big
manufacturers. You were doing clubs forindividuals, right, You were a small
(18:07):
little shop doing one ups at atime. Well, it was a different
industry in those spaces, you know, it was. It was completely different.
Everything was made by hand. Imean you had there were no cast
clubs. You didn't have castings thatcame out of molds that could be mass
produced. You didn't have um,you know, woods were made out of
(18:30):
wood. Well, I mean whata concept, right, the woods were
made out of woods? Was therewhere that word came from? That's where
that worked from. So you youhad to you know, laye turn all
the heads individually from a block ofwood. Forgings came u in just rough
blanks and then you would have touh grind everyone by hand. You didn't
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have to hand stamp the score linesand the the graphics on it. That's
just the way it was. Everyevery club was unique. It was every
club was handmade, and that's whereall your efforts were placed, was in
actually manufacturing the product. Today it'sjust a giant marketing game, that's what
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it is. All the product comesfrom foundries pretty much from the Far East.
Everyone uses a China now unfortunately toto make all the clubheads, and
all the money is really put intomarketing, promotion, paying huge endorsement contracts
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and um. It's just a wholedifferent game now than than than the industry
that I grew up in. Andis it better for the golfer now?
I think the quality of the qualityof golf equipment today is far superior to
what it was thirty f or fiftyyears ago. What what has deteriorated is
(20:04):
I think the real craftsmanship, thereal the customization. I would agree with
Tom that that a lot of thathas has been lost in the industry.
You know, now companies are comingout with with adjustable clubs where you can
make a hook face for open faceor upright or flat or whatever. There
(20:26):
are a lot more options today,but I think we've lost the real connection
to the craftsmen and the and thecraftsman and the artist. Really, it's
it's just a it's completely different today. I think we've lost that, and
I think people would love really golfer. The game is just so steeped in
(20:48):
tradition. I think we've by losingthat connection to the craftsman or the artists
who who handmade the clubs. It'sdiminished. It's it's diminish the how can
how can I say the aura orthe mystique of the game. You know,
it's it's just a different it's justa different story. I still think
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people believe, you know, wouldlove to have a relationship with an actual
craftsman or artist, but now that'sa lot more difficult. Yeah, And
from what I understand, you kindof I don't want to blame you for
this, Jesse, but you kindof contributed to all of that growth by
creating a club that changed the faceof golf. Well, yes, am
(21:37):
I putting you on the spot bytelling you, by having you tell the
story of the trimental fairway would,but please, it's an ironic story.
I mean, you're right. Imean I did change the face of the
industry a decade ago, and someof it was for the better. I
mean, I clearly was fortunate tostumble on an idea to make clubs a
(22:03):
little easier to hit, and itchanged. It changed the game for millions
of golfers worldwide. But then Ialso ushered in an industry from from Asia
because before Tri Metal, very fewof the clubs were made overseas. A
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lot of the foundries were in SouthernCalifornia and the finishing and grinding and painting
was done across the border in Mexico. There were clubs coming from from Taiwan
in Asia, but not really realhigh quality clubs. That changed with Tri
Metal because I could not afford thetooling um from from the foundries in Southern
(22:49):
California. I mean in those days, back in the mid nineties, late
nineties spread it would cost about twentyth twenty five thousand dollars for a mold
at to create a master in amold for a single lost club. So
you know, if you've got youknow, five or six, you know,
two or three, two or threedrivers, and five or six different
(23:11):
lofts for fairway woods. You know, you were you were spending almost two
hundred thousand dollars just for tooling,where in Asia it was a fraction of
that. And so I went therewith the idea of mixing, mixing and
matching up metals, and Trimetal wasborn, and it really was a forerunner
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two today's hybrids. You know,we were the first company that really went
all the way up to about thirtyfive degrees in a wood. You know,
up until then there you would havea wood that would be maybe you
know, a six wood or sevenwood, maybe a nine wood. But
when we went to Trimetal and justput lofts on the clubs instead of calling
(23:56):
them a number, that also changedthe way people of their high lofted woods.
So yeah, ironic, ironic thatI've become some somewhat of a victim
of my success. That's the waythat that's the way the ball bounces,
you know, or slices or hookright, And how did you stumble across
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something like that? Well, youknow, it's it's just sometimes desperations the
mother of invention, I guess youcould say, you know, I just
our business was was tough because wewere always known as a wonderful wood company
and the world had gone to metal, and my father and I realized that,
(24:48):
you know, metal had its limitations. Uh. In the mid nineties,
everyone was talking about perimeter waiting,and my father and I knew that
soul waiting on a club, youknow, low wearing the center of gravity
was much more important than perimeter weighting. And you could get soul weighting with
the wood because the wood was verylight. But then you put a heavy
(25:11):
brass plate and you could really getthe cg way down which gets the ball
airborne, which gives you confidence.Like we talked about before, and since
I understood that a wood was madeout of several different materials, whether it
was brass, steel, plastic,fiber in the face, different types of
woods that we would use, eitherlamonated maple or percimmon. You know,
(25:34):
a wood head was not made outof one material, So why would a
metal wood, Why should that bemade out of all titanium or all steel.
I felt that if I could mixthe properties of the metals, having
a certain piece on the head beingbeing much thicker than another, having different
types of metals, I could movethe weight around in the club head and
(25:57):
make it a club that would beeasier to hit and give people more confidence.
And that's how I stumbled across.And I knew that the more weight
you have on the face of theclub or the front wall, the harder
it is to get the ball airborne. So make the face super thin was
not a long leap of genius.It was just obvious to me. But
(26:19):
if you make the faces very thin, it collapses. But there are a
lot more. There are a lotof metals. There are a lot stronger
than titanium that I knew, Andso we started experimenting, and we stumbled
on the idea of a club madeout of three different metals and decided to
call a trimetal. And that's whathappened. An amazing story that really is
(26:44):
a truly amazing story. Jesse,before we go, please tell us how
to get to Bobby Jones Golf,the website and what is going on your
products these days that we should knowabout and be purchasing well. To get
a hold of us, the bestway to go just on the web and
go Bobby Jones Bobby Jones dot com. It used to be Bobby Jones golf
(27:06):
dot com. It's Bobby Jones dotcom and it'll be you'll show you the
apparel company or division and the equipment. You click on there and you see
our latest offerings. And I guessone of the exciting things we didn't talk
about, Fred is that for thefirst time in a decade, come end
of November, I will be introducinga line of irons. That's the first
(27:29):
time that I've made irons since sinceall of them are almost nine years ago,
so that's kind of exciting. Soit's Bobby Jones dot com, or
you can call the shop. Thedirect line at the shop is five one
zero to six six zero seven twoone, and that puts you in touch
with the shop right here in Hayward, California, in the San Francisco Bay
(27:52):
Area. Fabulous m h. Andby the way, you can if you
do type in Bobby Jones golf dotcom, it'll still go to Bobby Jones
dot com. So either way you'regoing to be fine, and I am
You're going to be coming up withsome irons. Huh. Right, it's
a it's a set of a setof irons, very high tech as you
(28:15):
would expect, Fred made out ofthree or four different types of metals that
have a very low CG, avery thin face. In fact, the
face of the irons is the samematerial that's in the hybrids and in the
ferrywoods. It's that mar aging steel, and so the ball is going to
go a bit higher and go alittle further. And they're designed really for
(28:37):
the average golfer, probably the golferwho's about about a nine handicap and higher.
Clean look, very classic look,not a lot of distractions on it,
very little offset, but a verylow CG with a very thin face
to kind of you know, slingthe ball out there. So look,
(28:59):
you can look for those. Theyshould be on the website in about four
to six weeks to first little peaksneak previous. Okay, And because it's
a podcast, some people may listento this four to six weeks after we
recorded it. So about what monthare we talking about? I would say
that if they get on the websitein mid November, mid November, they'll
(29:19):
see the irons are on there,and we should be delivering early December,
okay, And that's of twenty andeleven, and there's there's you you know,
before I was going to say yourholiday gift to yourself was going to
be the super light chafts that wetalk about later. But I think this
is your holiday gift right here.This is gonna be it I've got.
(29:44):
Over the years, I've probably hadover a thousand golfers say they love all
the clubs. Hey, Jesse,weren't you gonna make irons? And I
always tell them, well, Idon't know when I'm ready. You know
when I'm ready. And in Decemberwe're gonna have a limited launch of them,
and then really full productional stuf happeningin January. But we'll have about
we'll have about four or five hundredsets available before the end of the year.
(30:07):
All right, Well, when weset up this recording, you said
you want to come down here toHeyward or do you want to just do
it on the phone. And Isaid, for this time, let's just
go ahead and do it on thephone. But you know what, those
irons come out, I'm coming tomake a visit. That's great looking.
Well, look, Jesse, we'vewe've hit our thirty minute mark and I
have so many more questions. Wouldyou mind if we said goodbye on this
(30:33):
episode? But if you stuck arounda little more and we can continue recording
and make this an episode for ourmembers only program for next week. Absolutely
you got time for that, Absolutelywell, I appreciate it very much.
All Right, So we're gonna dopart two plus Jesse, I want to
talk to you about these adjustable clubsand about shafts, and about hybrids and
(30:55):
how and the impact and the importancefor every golfers back on these elements.
In congratulations on three hundred episodes,
Welcome to Golf Smarter Mulligans, yoursecond chance to gain insight and advice from
the best instructors featured on the GolfSmarter podcast. Great Golf Instruction never gets
old. Our interview library features hundredsof hours of game improvement conversations like this
(00:21):
that are no longer available in anypodcast app. Confidence is everything. I
think you've seen you in the lastseveral years, more people going to hybridge
rather than using a three iron ora four iron, and it's because they
have more confidence in a higher lostedclub that has a longer shaft and gives
them the same distance as the shorteriron that had the little blade. And
(00:47):
you know, you're looking down onthat three or four and it looks like
you're standing on the edge of halfdome. They're looking straight down, and
you have a little bit more confidenceseeing a wider bodied club with a lot
more face angles. So it's allabout confidence, and you get the confidence
partly from practice and also partly fromthe innovations that as clubmakers we've come up
(01:07):
with in the last decade or so. It's really been a great decade of
innovation. But there's only so muchthat we can do now. Under the
USGA restrictions. With another interview fromthe archives of Golf Smarter, here's your
host, Fred Green. Welcome backto the Golf Smarter podcast. Jesse,
(01:27):
Hey, how you doing. I'mdoing so well. Thank you for coming
on being part of our celebration ofthe first three hundred episodes. You have
definitely been not only one who myfavorite people to speak with, but you
were also incredibly gracious and helpful whenwe did an event with our listeners by
coming out and playing golf with usand answering their questions and demoing what was
(01:53):
going on at Bobby Jones Golf atthe time. So thank you. Oh
no, that was a great timefor every I In fact, I remembered
it kind of drizzled that day,didn't it or did it actually rain hard?
I know that we got the roundin, but it was we got
the round in, but barely.I think, yeah, yeah, we
got we got it in. Hadsome hot dogs afterwards, and then did
our recording uh um and still actuallyone of the my friend came and took
(02:16):
photographs of us, and one ofthe best photographs I've ever taken in my
life was the one I have ofthe of you and I together. So
you look, you look fabulous becauseyou're standing next to me. That's why
I'm making I'm making you look.Oh is that what it was? Yeah
to be? So how things goingto Bobby Jones Golf, Well, you
(02:38):
know, it's kind of this timeof year thinks slow down in the industry.
It's September October really the slowest monthsof the year four play. And
that's because the East coast, theMidwest for it's slowing down at the end
of the season for a lot ofpeople. It's uh, the weather has
changed, it's gotten block colder.Also, football football season, college football
(03:05):
season, and hunting become very prominentin the mid to late fall, and
so a lot of the country kindof hibernates on golf. Out Here on
the West coast, we still canplay, but what's happening is Arizona and
Palm Springs they haven't started up yetbecause they go into overseating in October.
(03:25):
So really mid September through October isthe slowest time of year for play.
In November, that's when the grasscomes back up in Palm Springs, Arizona,
also also in Florida, so golfstarts picking up a bit in the
south in the southern climates that timeof year in November into December, so
(03:49):
right now slow, but I'm busybecause this is the time of year where
you're rushing to get all the newproduct lines set up for introduction, you
know, but on Christmas or January. Yeah. Well, and also luckily
we have a global audience, soI know that my email increases from Australia
(04:10):
when we go into our winter becausethey're going into their summer and I get
I get a lot of email fromAustralia from people saying, yeah, my
season is getting started, so Iwant to know and like, whoa wait
a minute, You've got me allupside down here literally. Yeah. Um
yeah. So it's interesting you talkabout getting the new product line ready for
(04:32):
launching at the the PGA show,which is in the end of January beginning
of February. I had a conversationwith Tom was Sewn a few episodes back.
Are you familiar with Tom? Aren'tyou? Absolutely? Tom and either
our long time friends, probably thirtyyears. Oh wow, And he was
(04:53):
he was in Marianne. That's whereTom. Tom was from, you know,
I think originally was from Colorado,but spent I believe his teenage years
and his in his twenties here inuh In Marin. And he's one heck
of a drummer too. You know. He he played drums for Steve Miller.
I don't know if you ever toldyou come on, No, it's
(05:13):
a hidden secret from from Tom.It's a it's a little gem. Yeah,
he played, Uh he would playsession and practice uh practice sessions with
Steve Miller. Wow. Oh,I'm going to nail him on that one.
Yeah, he's he's told me hismom lives up in Nevado, which
is the next the next town upfrom me here in San Raphael. And
so you know, we we've threatenedone another to get together, but he's
(05:38):
here coming to see his mom.He doesn't need to see me. It's
you know, but uh yeah,so yeah, he's in Colorado now.
But Tom Um is probably, Iwould think, the leading spokesperson for the
custom club making and Um we talkedabout, you know, all the restrictions
that are that are put on themajor manufacturers club manufacturers, and that actually
(06:01):
most of the money seems to gointo advertising. Far more money goes into
advertising then it goes into R andD because you really can't come up with
new products every six months or everyyear. That's absolutely true. It's uh.
You know, I'm a perfect exampleof that, where the line that
(06:24):
I've had Fred has you know,we've had it for three years now.
That's virtually unheard of. You know, in our industry, people are changing
every six months, sometimes three timesin a year, but certainly, very
very few companies have a line,the model line that doesn't change every year.
(06:44):
You know, I'm kind of unusualbecause I try to stay ahead of
the curves so that our equipment hasa shelf life of at least two,
if not three years. And reallyin the last several years, more than
anything that changes and models have beencosmetic. I mean, the restrictions for
(07:05):
ball velocity off the face of adriver have not changed in the last five
or six years. Yet everyone's gotdifferent models. Well why, well,
it's just another it's another angle toto proplanned obsolescence and get people to believe
that their current clubs are not asgood as the ones that were made or
the ones that they have in theirbag in the last three years. So
(07:29):
Tom is right, there are alot of restrictions and most of the changes
are really cosmetic in the industry.How do you as, if I'm not
mistaken, you're still the CEO ofBobby Jones Golf. Yeah, well,
I'm my actual title, nous vicepresident of the Bobby Jones division of HMX.
(07:51):
Back in January, we merged withthe apparel company them. Yeah,
the Jones family in in Atlanta wantedone master license c to handle or oversee
all the all the licensees with BobbyJones. So there was a fragrance company,
(08:13):
there was a leather goods company,there was US the equipment company.
There's a company that puts out videosand tapes. They wanted it all into
one umbrella. So we merged inJanuary with the HMX Corporation, which handles
which it's a huge apparel company thatowns Bobby Jones. It owns a Hickey,
(08:35):
Freeman, hartshafter Marks, does TaylorI think it's Austin Ready, does
taylored pr Cardan. There's a lotof brands that they have, So I'm
under that umbrella now, all right. So as a vice president of a
company, especially that's owned by alarger company, I would suspect that they
want to get reports for you onan annual basis on your projections for growth
(08:58):
and how you're going to infiltrate themarket in a larger scale. They have
to answer. I would suspect theyhave to answer to shareholders. I'm guessing,
or is it a privately private company. It's a private company, Okay,
so they don't have to worry aboutshareholders, but they still have to
worry about the bottom line, andthey still want to grow their product line.
(09:18):
And when you have restrictions like that, and you have a product that's
on the market that is relatively unchangedfor as long as it is, how
can you as a businessman, notas a clubmaker, how do you justify
that to them? How do wedeal with that? It's it's difficult.
I mean, you're always trying tothink of coming up with something that's fresh,
(09:41):
something that still remains true to thename or the brand. Bobby Jones.
What I do, Freddy, Itry to make clubs that still have
a classic elegance about them. Butyou've got to have all the high tech
components in there. You've got toyou've got to stay on top of what
are the metals that are out therethat we can use that might be able
(10:03):
to not so much enhance performance,but I'd say enhance the experience or the
enjoyment of the game. I tryto make clubs that are a little easier
to hit but still look good togood players. And it's difficult. You
know, this year, this pastyear, Tailor Mate had a real big
(10:26):
hit with the R eleven. Butreally it's you know, it got a
lot more It got a lot morebuzz because it was a white club than
really for what it was technologically,you know, speaking, So, how
do you how do you react tothat when somebody when somebody comes out with
the exact same club, but theypaint it, they spray paint it white
(10:50):
and bring it out as if they'vethey've found the new secret. How do
you react to something like you rollyour eyes, you start throwing things across
the room. It's like, comeon, people, really, yes and
no? You know, yes,yes, because I know what's going on,
and you know, we're all tryingto make our clubs better looking,
more attractive. We're trying to makethem, uh, you know, a
(11:13):
little bit more more forgiving within therestrictions that are that are laid upon us
by the USGA. But on theother hand, I'm excited because anything that
brings attention or pizzazz or as Iwould say, add spice to the gumbo
in the equipment arena is very welcomebecause under with the economy the way it
(11:35):
is in golf, you know,plays down, uh, sales across the
board are down. You know,the resorts are struggling. You know,
anytime you've got you can get buzzin the golf industry. It's good for
it's it's good for the industry asa whole. You know, losing Tiger
for the last year and a halfhasn't help ratings and and and it's so
(11:58):
you know, yes, I rolledmy eyes. I know I know what's
what's under the kimono as they say, um technologically speaking, but I also
welcome that there is there is somebuzz around the industry. It's it's interesting
because you talk about how it's supposedto enhance performance, which is not necessarily
(12:24):
the case, and so you wantto enhance the experience, your enhance enjoyment.
And the thing that came to mymind, especially after talking to all
the instructors that I've spoken with,is that I guess the one thing you
really want to enhance is confidence.In a golfer that's right, Well,
that's right. I mean, it'sthere's there, there's probably a lot more.
(12:46):
To paraphrase Woody Hayes when they usedto ask them, the great Ohio
State coach, you know, Woody, why don't you throw the ball more?
Well? Do you? When youthrow the ball, three things can
happen, and two of them arebad. It's kind of the same thing
with the golf. You know.It's there's just so much more bad that
can happen from from striking the golfball then than good. It's it's you
(13:09):
know, you can top the ball, slice it, hook it, chunk
it. I mean, you know, hitting the perfect shot is extremely rare,
and even when you hit a goodshot, you could always say,
well, gee, it could havebeen better. I didn't quite catch it.
It just I just missed it.So you know, it's, uh,
what we're trying to do is orwhat I try to do. I
(13:31):
do these little videos every month orso. I try to tell people to
get out and play and just enjoybeing out and having fun. You know,
you can't get upset at bad shotsbecause we're not doing this for a
living. You know, we're outthere to have fun, get out and
the outdoors, challenge ourselves, andbad shots are part of the game.
(13:52):
I mean, that's you know thatthat that's kind of a reminder that you
should be practicing a little bit more. Although few of us practice enough to
really to really improve our games.You know, we keep going out there
and playing, and you know,like like Dave Pells would say, you
know, Jesse, I think alot of guys should go to the driving
range and leave you know, theof the fourteen clubs they got in their
(14:16):
bag, they probably should leave,you know, at least ten of them
in the trunk of the car.Just go out there with your your pitching
ledge and your sand iron and youknow, maybe a nine iron or seven
and just hit those practice with thoseclubs because most of the shots that you
are going to lose are going tobe within a hundred yards and then you
(14:39):
know, from the greens. Sojust go out and practice the short game.
But very few of us do.We're all out there at the driving
range hitting the big dog and uh, you know, trying to see how
far we can hit it. Andin the end, it's all about it's
still Fred. It's all about gettingthe ball in the hole. That's what
it's all about. Yeah, Andfor some you're right, they grab the
(15:01):
big dog and getting the ball inthe air. And I guess my marketing
thoughts would be that you want towhen I talk about instilling confidence, it's
the front end of the club.It's like, what club am I going
to reach for that I have totalconfidence in my in every time I grab
that club, every time I swingthat club. Not what happens after I
(15:24):
swing the club, it's what Ido before I swing the club. And
that's the kind of thing that youwant to a consumer to take with them
absolutely everything. Confidence is everything.I think you've seen, you know,
in the last several years more peoplegoing to hybridge rather than using a three
iron or a four iron. Evenfive irons are starting to get pretty rare
(15:48):
when you go out there and seethe average golf for you know, play
and it's because they've lost They havemore confidence in a higher losted club that
has a longer shaft and gives themthe same distance as the shorter iron that
had the little blade. And youknow, you're looking down on that three
(16:10):
or four and it looks like you'restanding on the edge of a half dome.
They're looking straight down and and it'syou know, you have a little
bit more confidence seeing a wider bodiedclub with a lot more face angles.
So yeah, it's it's all aboutconfidence. And you get the confidence partly
from practice and also partly from uh, the innovations that as clubmakers we've come
(16:33):
up with in the last decade orso. You know, it's it's really
been, it's really been a greatdecade of innovation. But you were right,
as you said, as we're talkingabout earlier in the in the podcast,
Um, there's only so much thatwe can do now under under the
USGA restrictions. Yeah, Tom wasSean Again. We're gonna go back to
(17:02):
Tom for a second, because heis, you know, the clubmaker,
the individual clubmaker. They're not thebig manufacturer. Now, your history,
you pretty much came from a smallerenvironment. Your dad. You were an
apprentice to your dad, correct,that's right. Yeah, my dad was
a tool and die maker from theOld Country, which specifically the Basque region
(17:25):
northern part of Spain, and camehere in the about nineteen fifty fifty one
and then started all of our innineteen sixty. He was a tool and
die maker and he had a friendof his who was working at a place
called a company called Frank Whiston Johnsonthat used to make the ken Venturi Tony
Lima clubs, and he got mydad interested in the clubs, and through
(17:45):
that association, that's how I endedup. You know, my dad was
make clubs for Tony and Kennon andthat was how my relationship started with ken
Venturie many many years ago. WhenI was a kid at the shop,
it wasn't like a ping or aCallaway. It wasn't one of the big
manufacturers. You were doing clubs forindividuals, right, You were a small
(18:07):
little shop doing one ups at atime. Well, it was a different
industry in those spaces, you know, it was. It was completely different.
Everything was made by hand. Imean you had there were no cast
clubs. You didn't have castings thatcame out of molds that could be mass
produced. You didn't have um,you know, woods were made out of
(18:30):
wood. Well, I mean whata concept, right, the woods were
made out of woods? Was therewhere that word came from? That's where
that worked from. So you youhad to you know, laye turn all
the heads individually from a block ofwood. Forgings came u in just rough
blanks and then you would have touh grind everyone by hand. You didn't
(18:56):
have to hand stamp the score linesand the the graphics on it. That's
just the way it was. Everyevery club was unique. It was every
club was handmade, and that's whereall your efforts were placed, was in
actually manufacturing the product. Today it'sjust a giant marketing game, that's what
(19:18):
it is. All the product comesfrom foundries pretty much from the Far East.
Everyone uses a China now unfortunately toto make all the clubheads, and
all the money is really put intomarketing, promotion, paying huge endorsement contracts
(19:38):
and um. It's just a wholedifferent game now than than than the industry
that I grew up in. Andis it better for the golfer now?
I think the quality of the qualityof golf equipment today is far superior to
what it was thirty f or fiftyyears ago. What what has deteriorated is
(20:04):
I think the real craftsmanship, thereal the customization. I would agree with
Tom that that a lot of thathas has been lost in the industry.
You know, now companies are comingout with with adjustable clubs where you can
make a hook face for open faceor upright or flat or whatever. There
(20:26):
are a lot more options today,but I think we've lost the real connection
to the craftsmen and the and thecraftsman and the artist. Really, it's
it's just a it's completely different today. I think we've lost that, and
I think people would love really golfer. The game is just so steeped in
(20:48):
tradition. I think we've by losingthat connection to the craftsman or the artists
who who handmade the clubs. It'sdiminished. It's it's diminish the how can
how can I say the aura orthe mystique of the game. You know,
it's it's just a different it's justa different story. I still think
(21:11):
people believe, you know, wouldlove to have a relationship with an actual
craftsman or artist, but now that'sa lot more difficult. Yeah, And
from what I understand, you kindof I don't want to blame you for
this, Jesse, but you kindof contributed to all of that growth by
creating a club that changed the faceof golf. Well, yes, am
(21:37):
I putting you on the spot bytelling you, by having you tell the
story of the trimental fairway would,but please, it's an ironic story.
I mean, you're right. Imean I did change the face of the
industry a decade ago, and someof it was for the better. I
mean, I clearly was fortunate tostumble on an idea to make clubs a
(22:03):
little easier to hit, and itchanged. It changed the game for millions
of golfers worldwide. But then Ialso ushered in an industry from from Asia
because before Tri Metal, very fewof the clubs were made overseas. A
(22:23):
lot of the foundries were in SouthernCalifornia and the finishing and grinding and painting
was done across the border in Mexico. There were clubs coming from from Taiwan
in Asia, but not really realhigh quality clubs. That changed with Tri
Metal because I could not afford thetooling um from from the foundries in Southern
(22:49):
California. I mean in those days, back in the mid nineties, late
nineties spread it would cost about twentyth twenty five thousand dollars for a mold
at to create a master in amold for a single lost club. So
you know, if you've got youknow, five or six, you know,
two or three, two or threedrivers, and five or six different
(23:11):
lofts for fairway woods. You know, you were you were spending almost two
hundred thousand dollars just for tooling,where in Asia it was a fraction of
that. And so I went therewith the idea of mixing, mixing and
matching up metals, and Trimetal wasborn, and it really was a forerunner
(23:33):
two today's hybrids. You know,we were the first company that really went
all the way up to about thirtyfive degrees in a wood. You know,
up until then there you would havea wood that would be maybe you
know, a six wood or sevenwood, maybe a nine wood. But
when we went to Trimetal and justput lofts on the clubs instead of calling
(23:56):
them a number, that also changedthe way people of their high lofted woods.
So yeah, ironic, ironic thatI've become some somewhat of a victim
of my success. That's the waythat that's the way the ball bounces,
you know, or slices or hookright, And how did you stumble across
(24:25):
something like that? Well, youknow, it's it's just sometimes desperations the
mother of invention, I guess youcould say, you know, I just
our business was was tough because wewere always known as a wonderful wood company
and the world had gone to metal, and my father and I realized that,
(24:48):
you know, metal had its limitations. Uh. In the mid nineties,
everyone was talking about perimeter waiting,and my father and I knew that
soul waiting on a club, youknow, low wearing the center of gravity
was much more important than perimeter weighting. And you could get soul weighting with
the wood because the wood was verylight. But then you put a heavy
(25:11):
brass plate and you could really getthe cg way down which gets the ball
airborne, which gives you confidence.Like we talked about before, and since
I understood that a wood was madeout of several different materials, whether it
was brass, steel, plastic,fiber in the face, different types of
woods that we would use, eitherlamonated maple or percimmon. You know,
(25:34):
a wood head was not made outof one material, So why would a
metal wood, Why should that bemade out of all titanium or all steel.
I felt that if I could mixthe properties of the metals, having
a certain piece on the head beingbeing much thicker than another, having different
types of metals, I could movethe weight around in the club head and
(25:57):
make it a club that would beeasier to hit and give people more confidence.
And that's how I stumbled across.And I knew that the more weight
you have on the face of theclub or the front wall, the harder
it is to get the ball airborne. So make the face super thin was
not a long leap of genius.It was just obvious to me. But
(26:19):
if you make the faces very thin, it collapses. But there are a
lot more. There are a lotof metals. There are a lot stronger
than titanium that I knew, Andso we started experimenting, and we stumbled
on the idea of a club madeout of three different metals and decided to
call a trimetal. And that's whathappened. An amazing story that really is
(26:44):
a truly amazing story. Jesse,before we go, please tell us how
to get to Bobby Jones Golf,the website and what is going on your
products these days that we should knowabout and be purchasing well. To get
a hold of us, the bestway to go just on the web and
go Bobby Jones Bobby Jones dot com. It used to be Bobby Jones golf
(27:06):
dot com. It's Bobby Jones dotcom and it'll be you'll show you the
apparel company or division and the equipment. You click on there and you see
our latest offerings. And I guessone of the exciting things we didn't talk
about, Fred is that for thefirst time in a decade, come end
of November, I will be introducinga line of irons. That's the first
(27:29):
time that I've made irons since sinceall of them are almost nine years ago,
so that's kind of exciting. Soit's Bobby Jones dot com, or
you can call the shop. Thedirect line at the shop is five one
zero to six six zero seven twoone, and that puts you in touch
with the shop right here in Hayward, California, in the San Francisco Bay
(27:52):
Area. Fabulous m h. Andby the way, you can if you
do type in Bobby Jones golf dotcom, it'll still go to Bobby Jones
dot com. So either way you'regoing to be fine, and I am
You're going to be coming up withsome irons. Huh. Right, it's
a it's a set of a setof irons, very high tech as you
(28:15):
would expect, Fred made out ofthree or four different types of metals that
have a very low CG, avery thin face. In fact, the
face of the irons is the samematerial that's in the hybrids and in the
ferrywoods. It's that mar aging steel, and so the ball is going to
go a bit higher and go alittle further. And they're designed really for
(28:37):
the average golfer, probably the golferwho's about about a nine handicap and higher.
Clean look, very classic look,not a lot of distractions on it,
very little offset, but a verylow CG with a very thin face
to kind of you know, slingthe ball out there. So look,
(28:59):
you can look for those. Theyshould be on the website in about four
to six weeks to first little peaksneak previous. Okay, And because it's
a podcast, some people may listento this four to six weeks after we
recorded it. So about what monthare we talking about? I would say
that if they get on the websitein mid November, mid November, they'll
(29:19):
see the irons are on there,and we should be delivering early December,
okay, And that's of twenty andeleven, and there's there's you you know,
before I was going to say yourholiday gift to yourself was going to
be the super light chafts that wetalk about later. But I think this
is your holiday gift right here.This is gonna be it I've got.
(29:44):
Over the years, I've probably hadover a thousand golfers say they love all
the clubs. Hey, Jesse,weren't you gonna make irons? And I
always tell them, well, Idon't know when I'm ready. You know
when I'm ready. And in Decemberwe're gonna have a limited launch of them,
and then really full productional stuf happeningin January. But we'll have about
we'll have about four or five hundredsets available before the end of the year.
(30:07):
All right, Well, when weset up this recording, you said
you want to come down here toHeyward or do you want to just do
it on the phone. And Isaid, for this time, let's just
go ahead and do it on thephone. But you know what, those
irons come out, I'm coming tomake a visit. That's great looking.
Well, look, Jesse, we'vewe've hit our thirty minute mark and I
have so many more questions. Wouldyou mind if we said goodbye on this
(30:33):
episode? But if you stuck arounda little more and we can continue recording
and make this an episode for ourmembers only program for next week. Absolutely
you got time for that, Absolutelywell, I appreciate it very much.
All Right, So we're gonna dopart two plus Jesse, I want to
talk to you about these adjustable clubsand about shafts, and about hybrids and
(30:55):
how and the impact and the importancefor every golfers back on these elements.
In congratulations on three hundred episodes,
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