November 3, 2023 • 34 mins
Course Architect Jeffrey Brauer talks about contributing factors that influence the design of a golf course, including theme, landscapes, owner/developers needs and player strategy. The NFL themed golf course, Cowboys Golf Club in Dallas is featured. Originally episode 327 from Golf Smarter published April 3, 2012
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(00:00):
Welcome to Golf Smarter. Mulligans,your second chance to gain insight and advice
from the best instructors featured on theGolf Smarter podcast. Great Golf Instruction never
gets old. Our interview library featureshundreds of hours of game improvement conversations like
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(00:25):
Jerry Jillones and the expressed interest inbecoming a partner in the golf course and
doing an NFL them golf course.You know in Dallas, Texas, we
have all one hundred courses here andwe've had all the signature designers and whatnot,
and probably there's no better theme orbrand than Dallas and maybe a lot
of other places in the Dallas Cowboys. With another interview from the archives of
(00:47):
Golf Smarter. Here's your host,Fred Green. Welcome to the Golf Smarter
Podcast. Jeff, good morning,prod, and welcome to be here.
Thank you. Actually I should besaying welcome back to the Golf Smarter Podcast.
You were on episode number four.I was looking it up today,
So that was early in two thousandand six. It's been quite a while
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since we've had a chance to speakbut as your ratings recovered from that last
only increased because of you, myfriend, and great hard to believe,
no, but it's true. AndI think it's because the fact that you
were the first golf course architect thatI interviewed on this podcast and really started
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to turn my head around about whatgolf course design influences in a round of
golf and what the golfer should learnfrom golf course design. Well, it
can't help your score if you ifyou cannot pay attention, I guess.
So to explain that, how couldit help your scores? And what shall
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we be paying attention to? Well, I think most of my brethren and
I you know, try to giveyou a good place and a bad place
to hit the ball, and placeswhere there's advantage is to play your next
shot if you're thinking one shot ahead, and you know that most golfers just
get blindly on the tea and sortof swing away as hard as they can,
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and that's not always not always thesmart play. Do you think one
shot ahead when you're designing? Ohyeah, there's always a relationship, and
you know you'll try to lay itout where you know, a choice that
you make on the tea gives youan advantage, you know, coming into
the green. What makes your designstyle unique besides the name of your company?
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I love the word golf scapes,but what makes what makes your design
stand out among other of your colleagues? Well, one thing I've been told.
Of course, I guess it's furthersto decide as much as I.
But my designs are, you know, sort of a collected I can borrow
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from, you know, the GoldenAge style and maybe Pete Dye or nineteen
eighty style if I need to.I just don't think. I think,
you know, Consistency to me isdull. I don't think you need to
be all in one style necessarily.And I actually look, you know,
for example, of one hole,I've got one big bunker, then the
next hole might have just one smallpot bunker, or maybe a cluster of
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small pot bunkers. Where's so manycourses. You know, you start with
a certain bunker style, you keepgoing with a certain bunker style, so
you don't get stuck in a styleyou're influenced by all these different architects.
Are you a student of golf coursearchitecture as well as being a designer.
Oh? Absolutely, I still loveplaying the new golf courses, still still
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love studying them. If I don'thave time, if I get to a
certain area that I've ever been,I make a point of going out and
actually heard a tour, maybe fouror five in a hurry, rather than
spend you know, five hours playing. One last year, I was on
vacation up in Maine and realized itwas close to Cape Arundle, famous because
Clinton and the Two Bushes was onlycourse that hosted three presidents in one round
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of golf. But to me,you know, thinking whether it was an
untouched course from nineteen oh one,you know, pretty much untouched. So
I was able to learn, youknow, quite a bit about how the
golf courses look back in those days. So that's just one example. But
I love finding untouched sort of museumpiece golf courses where I can. And
when you when you see a courselike that, an untouched museum piece,
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I love it. Do you readabout it beforehand or afterwards you get fascinated
and want to read more about thearchitect and various other designs that they've done.
I'm going to say he has donewell. It just depends. Actually,
in the case of Cape Arundle.I came about it kind of half
by a mistake, and I droveby it and really I didn't realize it.
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So then I went backwards and youknow, found out about the history
and that sort of things. Sosometimes I'm able to play ahead and sometimes
it's just sort of happened because I'vegot a little extra time left over,
But that I always do go backand try to find out more about it
and more about the architect. Howmuch influence, Well, a ton of
influence because of the Golden Rule,and I'm talking about the developer of the
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course. The people are putting themoney up, they may come to you
and say a variety of things fromhere's a piece of land, go do
something with it, or I needto have X amount of houses around this,
or I want this to be inhonor of some sort of theme.
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How does that work for you?How much of a renegade are you in
that sense of saying I got it? Well? The best projects come when
the owner gives you sort of abraw picture, a big picture look at
what he needs, and then sortof trusts you and then maybe double checks
you every once in a while tomake sure you're not gone too fine in
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some sort of goofy direction. Certainly, we always like to push the envelope
a little. We like to dothings, you know, a little different
from course to course, you know, around here in Dallas. You know,
I've done a dozen courses. I'mvery conscious of, you know,
trying to make each one a littlebit different. You know, when I
went up to Minnesota, uh Ihad Brad Klay and a golf week up
there at one point, and youknow, he mentioned that, you know,
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you wouldn't know the same guy designedall three courses. There's three in
a twenty five mile radius, andyou know that to me is a good
thing. But I let the quarrysite at the Giants Ridge, you know,
dictate it, you know, besort of a pine valley course.
And then I had another course onthe lake, the Wilderness of Fortune Day
and the first one I did wasthe Legend of Giant Ridge, and that
was just sort of your typical northWoods course, very traditional. So if
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you have the site, then theowner's goals, you know, dictate,
you know, the general direct thegolf course. Each one gets a sense
of site, a sense of place, and they each turn out a little
different. When you get a newproject, do you take a tour of
the other local courses to see whatthey're doing, how they're doing it,
and how you can make your standout. I do, you know, I
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think you know, golfers may ormay not understand sort of the business aspect,
but I look at other courses.You know, the benchmark mine against
theirs, and then obviously you dowell in business by building a better mouse
trap. So, like I say, benchmarking it against the nearest competition,
is it makes a good business sensefor the owner. Have you had an
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owner that you said, you knowwhat, this is not gonna work for
me. And I'm not asking fornames, obviously, but I mean it's
like the philosophies were so diametrically opposedthat you just couldn't get on the same
page. You know, I've neverbeen one of those kind of architects.
Like I say, I think someof you guys do, perhaps you know,
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fight with their owners. Let's sayI don't see the point because there's
just more than one way to skina cap. And of course hopefully you
know all some of those stories arelegendary in any design field. You would
think the owner would have had thosediscussions before the contract was signed in the
first check was written. So youthink so you mentioned a moment ago you
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have a dozen courses in Dallas thatyou've done. Yeah, actually, I
think it's a Baker's dozen. Ithink I've done thirteen in my twenty something
years here. And you're not primarilyfocused on local design. I mean I
would think that any job, anyopportunity, anywhere in the world would be
appealing. Well, yeah, Imean I actually probably don't do as much
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local work as some of my competitorshere. Really, I still still enjoy
the travel. It varies a littlebit, but certainly like going to Minnesota
when it's one hundred and five degreeshere in Texas, Uh, and maybe
seventy five up in northern Minnesota.They got a lot of my attention those
years. And you know, werecently completed a renovation of La Costa out
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near San Diego, and you know, and you get a chance to go
to the world you know, fourthor fifth rank resort. Uh. You
know, that's a lot better thanstaying in Dallas Fort Worth. Uh.
Yeah, how is La Costa?LaCosta is like, you know, that's
a that's like taking a canvas thatis highly recognized and then saying, now,
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so you you're doing renovations, redesign, what do you do something that's
that you know what with the wordI'm looking for here that recog perhaps,
Yeah, I got it, Okay, thank you, I love it.
Well, uh, you know thatwas actually Dick Wilson, and uh,
you know, I started in thebusiness with Killing and Nusian and as it
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happened, you know, in thesixties when they started their business, they
were benchmarking and they looked at RobertTrent Jones or Dick Wilson for their design
style and happened to pick Dick Wilson. So sort of professional lineage wise,
you know, I was very intune with what he was trying to do
out at La Costa, and Iwill mention that I teamed with Damien Pascuzzo
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and Steve pad out there to dothese renovations. But you know, Dick
wilson style was not a big stretchfor me to basically restore, you know,
what he tried to do originally,because I felt pretty pretty much that
his style was very solid. Hisstyle was a little difficult. All of
his greens are elevated and he putfrontel bunkers, and you know, and
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playing the course with women and averagegolfers, you know, found a lot
of shots found those front bunkers.So as a result, we pushed him
aside just a little bit, tryto make a little more playable. But
you know, it was just funto try to think what Dick Wilson was
thinking. Actually, part of thatcourse was done after his death by Joe
Lee and some of his other associates, and so what we had to do
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is sort of blend it back tothe best part of the golf course when
Dick Wilson was still alive and stillworking on it. So there's always some
compromise, there's always some value judgments, you know Ouiji board say, you
know that kind of stuff. Tryingto trying to get back in time and
recreate the thought process of the regionalarchitect. How about designing on an etche
sketch. I boll him for mygrandson the other day. Those dye things
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are addictive when you start playing withthem, but wow, you bought some
for your grandson. It's like nobatteries required. How'd you do that?
Always trying to get him to goold school, you know, other than
video games, you know, showthem what it was like back in the
stone, aged to be a kid. Yeah, Graham sayings, okay,
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can you now buy me some electronics? That's right? What's this thing do?
Yeah? Right? What's this knob? For a knob? What's a
knob? Give me? Give mea pleasure to give me a tap screen?
Did you ever walk up to theTV and start tapping on the TV?
Going? How come it's not working? So how is business in the
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United States these days for you?And what's happening internationally? Well, I
have more I think more fortunate thanmost of my brethren. Like I just
mentioned La Costa, you know,which took up most to last year,
and it's open officially it's opened alimited play by members right now. And
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the year before that, we openedup fire Keeper in Maeta, Kansas,
which was a co design with notesof the gay Native American casino and resort.
It's a great site golf week.You're just named it the top course
in Kansas. The planting actually ColbertHills, another one of my designs,
and bumping that to two, andbumping another design of mine, Sand Creek
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Station in Newton to three. SoI've got a hat trick going there in
Kansas. But you know so thatboth you know, LaCosta because of what
it is, has been getting lotsof good press, and it was just
a high profile project fire keeper whowas one of only eleven new courses to
open the year before. So uhyeah, I maintained pretty well on the
international front. I've done some legworkin China. You know, nothing has
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gotten under construction, which is actuallypretty typical over there. There's a lot
more projects start and then get underconstruction. Just hard to know who's for
real over there. Yeah, soit's it's something you kind of shy away
from doing the international stuff as longas you can keep busy here in the
States. Well, now my kidsare all in college or out of college
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now, so uh you know,I did some international work twenty years ago,
you know, while they were tooyoung to know I was gone,
I guess, and sort of shiedaway forward for a long time for family
reasons. But now you know,I've been pursuing it. But I you
know, like I said, sohard hours for real, I've been working
better than going to the golf showsand chasing stuff Lilly Nelly. If I
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can get a recommendation through a mutualfriend and somebody I know. You know,
then I'll do some work over there. I've spent a lot of time
running around twenty years ago, anduh, you know that doesn't that doesn't
pay. I know some of thearchitects have spent quarter million dollars chasing work
and you know, maybe have onecourse under construction. So just a hard
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market to know. By the timethat this episode of the Golf Smarter podcast
gets published, I will have alreadyreturned from my weekend trip to play a
couple of rounds in Dallas. Andthat's why I got back in touch with
you is because one of the coursesthat while I was doing my research,
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one that hopefully will have up somevideo of it on golf Smarter TV very
soon, is the only NFL themedcourse in the United States, and I
I thought that sounds like a greatstory, and in doing some reading,
I saw your name associated, soI had to call you. Tell me
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about the Cowboys Golf Club. Theproject started about nineteen eighty nine, ended
up taking until two thousand and oneto get it opened, but one of
the hotels there, Hilton Conference Center, had the idea to put a golf
course right there next door, andit's near the airport, and you know,
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just a great incown location. Theland is actually a corps of engineer's
land that had been leased by thecity of grape Fine, Texas for one
hundred years and they had built apublic course there. So it was just
a fantastic site, untouched, youknow, heavily wooded corp golf course,
just waiting for something to be done, and they don't work their way through,
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and we're looking for financing and whatever, and through contacts, somebody knew
Jerry Jones and he expressed interest in, you know, becoming a partner in
the golf course and doing an NFLteam golf course. And you know,
in Dallas, Texas, you know, we have all, you know,
one hundred courses here, and we'vehad all the signature designers and whatnot,
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and you know, probably there's nobetter theme or brand in Dallas and maybe
a lot of other places than theDallas Cowboys. So when mister Jones decided
to come on, it just seemedto fit together. He must have been
very excited. Whose idea was itto say, look at now that you're
here, We've got this idea like, yes, yeah, well I was
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partner in the project. Is EvergreenAlliance Eagle Golf I think, I think
in the Hillton maintains a small portionof the project too, And somehow they
just knew each other and you know, decided it would be a great thing.
And Jerry and even more Stephen Joneshis son, you know, unlike
his reputation for you know, managinghis football team, being very zob you
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know, I thought he was agreat, great guy to work for.
You know, we had some earlymeetings and then some you know, critical
sight reviews, and I say,gave us the big picture, and you
know, oddly enough early discussions,he says, you know, we'll do
the theme in the clubhouse. ButI like traditional golf courses, so let's
not you know, do any gimmicksyou go out there. The putting green
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was originally shaped like a Dallas Star, you know, the Cowboys Star,
and down the foot of hall whichhas a huge elevated tee and it's got
a chance at laying up or drivingthe green that they did put out the
you know, the bluestar logo outin the middle of the fairway is sort
of the target for the layup,but there's a stone monument at every tee
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sort of commemorating the history, youknow, one through eighteen, you know,
early start of the team through theirSuper Bowl victories. And they're right,
we've left some room for some artworkwhich has not been put out there
over the years. But basically you'llgo out and you see it's just a
great, you know, core course, a traditional coursely wooded, and you
know, just a lot of funto play with, just touches of the
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Cowboys team. So it's not likeyou're teeing off and all of a sudden
somebody and pads just comes and knocksyou over. I mean, it's it's
not like a roller coaster, right, it's not the same that would be
that would be a tough course.This is the hole sixty five. Yeah,
and it's so what hole should Ibe if I have my camera,
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if I have some video with me, what are the signature holes that I
should be looking towards that are visuallycompelling? Well, holes two and four,
both of you know, maybe seventyor eighty foot drops from the tee,
very unusual for the Dallas area.And then most people say, wow,
this feels like a hill country courserather than a down there Austin rather
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than Dallas, so those get alot of attention, and then it plays
along the valley and then you know, coming back uphill, the seventeenth hole
is along part three. What arethe few uphill par threes have ever designed?
And it really is spectacular, heavilybunkered, and uh there's a tough
pin back of left, which ofcourse has been dubbed the Coffin corner,
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trying to get your punt to landon the you know, the corner in
the five yard line or something.So you know, the rest is just
you know, very solid, verytraditional. Those big downhill and up your
holes seemed to grab the most attentionjust because it's different for Dallas. For
orth so, using the Cowboys brand, not even their name, just being
branded by the Cowboys is more ofa marketing appeal than something that caught your
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eye design wise. Yeah, Imean, I was really grateful when mister
Jones and others, you know,decided to keep it as traditional golf.
You know, could have could haveturned out like a Circuits or Disneyland,
had you know, had you takenthat to some you know, logical extensions.
So I think they hit it justright on the on the overall theme.
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I mean, the car girls wereCowboys jerseys. There's a replica Super
Bowl trophy in the clubhouse and whatnot. But you know, for me as
an architect, you know, wereally did have a free hand. I
mean, mister Jones, I saybig picture, he says, I like
traditional golf. Don't give me goofygreens. Although we did push the limit
there because older courses tend to havemore roly greens than new ones, so
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we wanted to get some roll inthem to make them feel old. And
you know, actually the thing thatreally works again with the Cowboys is they
actually is busy during the week withcorporate events as they are on the weekend
with the casual golfers. And that'swhere it's aimed. It's just a great
place to take your clients out andentertain them, you know, the true
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country club for a day, theyknock you out of service. They have
meeting rooms in the clubhouse and asa result, you know, trying to
make tea times fire sometimes to getthem on a Thursday than it is on
a Saturday or a Sunday morning,because they booked corporate outings both morning and
afternoon, right, and you toldme that, you know, we were
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talking about playing an early Sunday morninground because we have to get back to
the airport soon after that. Andyou're like, oh, Sunday morning,
not a problem, that's going tobe easy to get a day. Well,
actually they give you a special evenon Sundays. They booked the eight
and the one o'clock shotguns because they'veremained popular and they have not cut their
fees despite the economy while they're youknow, maintaining the brand rather than discounting,
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you know, so much like somany other courses have done well and
been successful at it. Yeah,they need bodies out there. So you're
saying that beyond number two, numberfour, number seventeen, I got to
check out the clubhouse. Well,it's impressive. It is impressive. You'll
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enjoy that the whole experience. Theyjust do a great job out there.
You said that you've the number seventeena long uphill par three, that you've
not done a lot of uphill parthrees. So when you're looking at a
hill, you're at the base ofa hill and you're trying to imagine what
you're going to do. Well,what makes you say, you know what,
this should be a part three andnot apart four, or maybe we
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should stretch this out and turn itinto a part five. How do you
determine what goes where when you're standingon a just a what you said,
a fantastic site. Oh well,you know the architect union and let's say
that I'd tell you that then I'dhave to kill you, you know.
Well, you know, on theseventeenth is just one of those deals where
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it comes to be the part three. Of of course, they're always the
easiest to stick in, you know, because it's a single shot hole and
the power fours and the par fives. You know, depending on the kind
of ground. I mean, someoles just call out. The topography just
calls out for a certain thing,and you know, usually that you'd like
the keys elevated, like two andfour like to talk about. Usually I
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like to place the greens and gentleup slopes because it just gives them a
nice setting and you know, andyou're routing it. H People are always
disappointed when they come to the officebecause you know, every architect, not
just me, has these little plasticgolf holes where you can just kind of
move them around on the plan,you know, and try out a lot
of different things, you know quickly, you know, when I have the
guys routing courses, you know,for me to review and look at.
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Uh, you know, I tellthem if they can't get the first ten
routings done in a half an hour, you know, and then take you
know, then you start refining andtaking ideas. For me, it's you
know, it's just almost a numberscheme. You've got to be open to
try a lot of different things.And I say, usually you'll find three
or four holes just cry out togo, you know clearly where they are,
you know, maybe six or sevenon a great site. And in
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other cases, you know, youyou do have to make those choices.
Well, I could extend this tothe next deal and make it a par
five, or I could move itover here and make it a short four.
So you know, every site justpresents a real different challenge. And
so the term golf scapes and thenevery every canvas is unique. Huh,
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every canvas is unique. You know. When I was doing the two courses
up in Minnesota, it was funnythey asked me, is a different I
said, well, the process isthe same. But you know, one
course, I was in the quarryand there's big tits everywhere, and there's
changes of topography that you want touse to create the golf hall. You
know, we're very abrupt. Andon the other course, at the core
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as a giant or excuse me,the changes were long and broad. But
you know, you still look forthe same sort of changes of topography to
utilize. It's just they're different onevery site. M h. You said
visually, you look at it visually. So how often is it you're saying
it's it's visually demands the type ofhole it is versus strategically demands on what
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you design. Yeah, you know, and some people, like years ago,
I remember Jack Nicholas said there's nogreat up fill holes, you know,
like the seventeenth through just talking aboutit really is a golfer. You
know. Basically what he's saying isyou want to see where you're going,
and you know, obviously that's easierto do downhill. And then things you
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know, like say the greens usuallypresent best in a gentle uphill setting,
so you're sort of looking for thatdown to up sort of relationship. I
mean, there's a couple different variationsof it that you can use, and
so yeah, I mean, Idon't know. I guess i'd say,
yes, a great golf hole,you know, the bones of a hole
or the routing. You know,I do tend to look at it visually
as much as anything. How lockedin do you? How locked in are
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you on the concept of got tohave two par threes in the front and
two par threes in the back endtwo par fives in the front, or
are do you like you know what, I'm going to go three and three
on this one or I'm going togo one in two or one in three.
Well, one of my courses herein Dallas, west Ridge up near
McKinney in the Northern Suburbs is actuallya six six sixth routing. And you
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know they ask your question, youmean, like, yeah, there you
go. I've always wondered why youknow somebody can't go out and play six
holes or twelve or eighteen. Isthat what you're saying is instead of like
a back nine, that's traditional routing. I mean nine comes back to the
club's got six par five, sixpar three s par fours. Okay,
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oh interesting again, just a wayto make one of my dozen of courses
here, you know, unique there, so and be honest with you because
in reality, the power four isstill the most efficient goal in golf.
I mean, you hit a tshot and again you have some strategy or
at least you know, get thefairway or you hit the rough and it
makes your approach shot harder or theangle that you take, and then you
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have the approach shot, which ofcourse sets up the putt. You know,
the third or the middle shot ona paw five is usually fairly boring
unless you can, you know,make it a great heroical and you know,
par three there's no real strategy.I mean, you can have a
concept of how you hit the shot, but there's no relationship between the shots.
So and that, and you addin the you know, the acres
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that it takes and the fact thatlong hitters are just making a joke out
of par fives. And I reallyfeel the future golf is going to be
in par seventy or maybe even parsixty nine golf courses. And the US
Open has been doing that USGA fortheir US Opens, you know, for
years, and you know, reallyI think par seventy two will go the
way of the Dodo bird here ina decade or so, and it will
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focus more on par seventy. Andwhat about the way courses seem to be
dictated by the tour on getting longerand longer and longer. Is that is
that playing into you know, intothe long hitters' hands, or is that
make it definitely makes it a moredifficult course. Well, I have really
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been reacting the other way. Imean, if I go play with the
average golfers, you know, golfin America, the guy sixty three percent
of players, nearly two out ofthree playing sixty three hundred yards and even
that, you know, might bea little long for him. Twenty something
years ago, I played in theLas Vegas celebrity pro am. When I
get paired with the likes of FuzzyZellar and Todd Watson and Jim Colbert and
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Calvin Pete, and you know,granted they maybe hit a little farther those
days, but I was just behindhim, and so you know, the
idea of them playing seven thousand andme playing sixty seven hundred yards made a
lot of sense. But you know, Bubba Watson's one hundred yards by me
these days. And so I personallyand I see a lot of golfers just
realizing you can't keep up with thetour pros. And you know, so
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I see a lot of golfers becauseI'm fifty seven myself now, So I
see a lot of golfers going fromthat sixty eight hundred yard tee the sixty
three. Yeah, my dad whenhe played, would never play under six
thousand. But I see a lotof seniors now realizing that, you know,
if the scorecard doesn't give him anoption at fifty six or fifty eight
hundred yards, they realize over sixthousands too long. And Sarah, I'm
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a big advocate of shortening golf courses, ignoring that one ten to one percent
and hit the ball three hundred yardsor more, because really, that's so
few. I asked to I didwild Wing resort years ago, and I
called the superintendent. I said,hey, how many people use that those
back tees of seventy two fifty?He goes, well, fifty, I
said, well, is how manyof that a week a month? He
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goes, that's fifty in the tenyears the course has been opened. Later
back oops. So you know it'sthe paraphrase. You know, Winston Churchill
never has so much golf course beenbuilt for so few. Really well,
he said that never has so muchbeen done for so by so few or
something. We're referring to World Wartwo and the soldiers so shamelessly paraphrasing a
(29:45):
great man there. But really Ithink most courses I always proposed to the
owners that let's just ignore the protour. Those guys aren't going to show
up even you know, you're goodamateurs who come and play. The number
who hit over three hundred very verysmall. And you know, then then
you can go to sixty eight hundredyard golf course and you don't spend that
(30:07):
much money. You know, youdon't use that much acres, there's not
as much irrigation to put down,and so on and so forth, all
for one tenth you offer those fiftytea times, you know, even fifty
a year, it's an awful lotof an expense going in. So to
me, I see that happening golfcourses, the designs being more targeted.
It's an interesting philosophical concept. Imean, to stretch your course to seventy
(30:30):
six hundred. You know, wehave really just tried to build every golf
course to accommodate every golfer and spenta lot of resources doing it. And
I think in the you know,in the future, I mean you look
at like a Prestwick in Scotland gotout of the British Open rotation, and
you know, you see the tourgoing to more and more to the TPC
courses designed specifically for tournaments. Again, I think we'll see more targets,
(30:55):
you know, maybe some courses forwomen or junior facilities. You know,
maybe you go to Lord, Alot of those courses might get shortened up
to that fifty six hundred because they'reaim more seniors. I mean, you
know, why enough Florida retirement community, do you need seventy two hundred yard
ts right? That makes total senseunless that they demand. It's like,
no, I've got to get thiscourse on the tour. If we're going
(31:15):
to be selling a lot of teatimes here, people want to be able
to play on courses. They saidthat has been on the tour, right,
Well, that's still going to befifty five courses out of fifteen thousand,
you know, something in that variety, maybe one hundred if you include
the women's tour. I'm in LaCosta hosting the ki LPGA to event this
(31:36):
week. But it's just funny.Almost every design they go to, you
get out there, and of coursethere's usually the good players you know who
get involved with that. And youknow, we stand on those teas talking
about tournaments that might come and say, LaCosta is one of the few you
know, has hosted the PGA tournament, may do it again. It has
great success with the LPGA. Butyou know there makes sense. You know
(31:59):
most other places, you know,we spend an hour talking about how the
tour pro would play this all,well, they just aren't showing up.
It's a waste of my last twentyminutes to discuss that. A moment ago
you said there's no strategy in apar three. You just want to get
you know, the ball to thegreen. But on a design sense,
(32:22):
if I remember you you talking aboutthis, because it's kind of always stuck
with me, is that you putin visual distractions on a like on a
par three to mess with the golfer, you know, like light, bumpers
and water and you know, thingslike that, so it's not just a
(32:42):
clear shot at the green. Right. Yeah, I mean I always felt
that because I've been a fan ofMcDonald and his protege Seth Rainer, and
you know, their Part three's werealways what I call concept shots, and
I tend to do the same thing. Either do a small green totally surrounded
by the bunkers, you know,so it's a real precision shot. Or
(33:04):
they would do what's called her adamn shot where the green was sort of
a reverse slope and they had toplay to the front right corner to get
it on the green. So withoutthe inter relationship of shots between the t
shot and hitting the approach, Flakesaid, I think Part threes are just
great, great holes to just testa certain kind of shot from the golfer
(33:25):
and to make up for that.Well, thank you so much for coming
back on the show. It wasgreat to talk to you again. I
cannot wait to play the Cowboys CowboysGolf Club and go to the clubhouse and
get some photos of two four andseventeen and have some fun playing golf in
(33:45):
Dallas. Thanks so much for comingback. It's great to talk to you.
Well, I will come out thereand join me in heckle you' all
the way around. I like thatjust what I needed, all right.
Thanks a lot, andreadis
Welcome to Golf Smarter. Mulligans,your second chance to gain insight and advice
from the best instructors featured on theGolf Smarter podcast. Great Golf Instruction never
gets old. Our interview library featureshundreds of hours of game improvement conversations like
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(00:25):
Jerry Jillones and the expressed interest inbecoming a partner in the golf course and
doing an NFL them golf course.You know in Dallas, Texas, we
have all one hundred courses here andwe've had all the signature designers and whatnot,
and probably there's no better theme orbrand than Dallas and maybe a lot
of other places in the Dallas Cowboys. With another interview from the archives of
(00:47):
Golf Smarter. Here's your host,Fred Green. Welcome to the Golf Smarter
Podcast. Jeff, good morning,prod, and welcome to be here.
Thank you. Actually I should besaying welcome back to the Golf Smarter Podcast.
You were on episode number four.I was looking it up today,
So that was early in two thousandand six. It's been quite a while
(01:08):
since we've had a chance to speakbut as your ratings recovered from that last
only increased because of you, myfriend, and great hard to believe,
no, but it's true. AndI think it's because the fact that you
were the first golf course architect thatI interviewed on this podcast and really started
(01:34):
to turn my head around about whatgolf course design influences in a round of
golf and what the golfer should learnfrom golf course design. Well, it
can't help your score if you ifyou cannot pay attention, I guess.
So to explain that, how couldit help your scores? And what shall
(01:57):
we be paying attention to? Well, I think most of my brethren and
I you know, try to giveyou a good place and a bad place
to hit the ball, and placeswhere there's advantage is to play your next
shot if you're thinking one shot ahead, and you know that most golfers just
get blindly on the tea and sortof swing away as hard as they can,
(02:20):
and that's not always not always thesmart play. Do you think one
shot ahead when you're designing? Ohyeah, there's always a relationship, and
you know you'll try to lay itout where you know, a choice that
you make on the tea gives youan advantage, you know, coming into
the green. What makes your designstyle unique besides the name of your company?
(02:45):
I love the word golf scapes,but what makes what makes your design
stand out among other of your colleagues? Well, one thing I've been told.
Of course, I guess it's furthersto decide as much as I.
But my designs are, you know, sort of a collected I can borrow
(03:05):
from, you know, the GoldenAge style and maybe Pete Dye or nineteen
eighty style if I need to.I just don't think. I think,
you know, Consistency to me isdull. I don't think you need to
be all in one style necessarily.And I actually look, you know,
for example, of one hole,I've got one big bunker, then the
next hole might have just one smallpot bunker, or maybe a cluster of
(03:27):
small pot bunkers. Where's so manycourses. You know, you start with
a certain bunker style, you keepgoing with a certain bunker style, so
you don't get stuck in a styleyou're influenced by all these different architects.
Are you a student of golf coursearchitecture as well as being a designer.
Oh? Absolutely, I still loveplaying the new golf courses, still still
(03:52):
love studying them. If I don'thave time, if I get to a
certain area that I've ever been,I make a point of going out and
actually heard a tour, maybe fouror five in a hurry, rather than
spend you know, five hours playing. One last year, I was on
vacation up in Maine and realized itwas close to Cape Arundle, famous because
Clinton and the Two Bushes was onlycourse that hosted three presidents in one round
(04:15):
of golf. But to me,you know, thinking whether it was an
untouched course from nineteen oh one,you know, pretty much untouched. So
I was able to learn, youknow, quite a bit about how the
golf courses look back in those days. So that's just one example. But
I love finding untouched sort of museumpiece golf courses where I can. And
when you when you see a courselike that, an untouched museum piece,
(04:38):
I love it. Do you readabout it beforehand or afterwards you get fascinated
and want to read more about thearchitect and various other designs that they've done.
I'm going to say he has donewell. It just depends. Actually,
in the case of Cape Arundle.I came about it kind of half
by a mistake, and I droveby it and really I didn't realize it.
(05:00):
So then I went backwards and youknow, found out about the history
and that sort of things. Sosometimes I'm able to play ahead and sometimes
it's just sort of happened because I'vegot a little extra time left over,
But that I always do go backand try to find out more about it
and more about the architect. Howmuch influence, Well, a ton of
influence because of the Golden Rule,and I'm talking about the developer of the
(05:24):
course. The people are putting themoney up, they may come to you
and say a variety of things fromhere's a piece of land, go do
something with it, or I needto have X amount of houses around this,
or I want this to be inhonor of some sort of theme.
(05:46):
How does that work for you?How much of a renegade are you in
that sense of saying I got it? Well? The best projects come when
the owner gives you sort of abraw picture, a big picture look at
what he needs, and then sortof trusts you and then maybe double checks
you every once in a while tomake sure you're not gone too fine in
(06:09):
some sort of goofy direction. Certainly, we always like to push the envelope
a little. We like to dothings, you know, a little different
from course to course, you know, around here in Dallas. You know,
I've done a dozen courses. I'mvery conscious of, you know,
trying to make each one a littlebit different. You know, when I
went up to Minnesota, uh Ihad Brad Klay and a golf week up
there at one point, and youknow, he mentioned that, you know,
(06:30):
you wouldn't know the same guy designedall three courses. There's three in
a twenty five mile radius, andyou know that to me is a good
thing. But I let the quarrysite at the Giants Ridge, you know,
dictate it, you know, besort of a pine valley course.
And then I had another course onthe lake, the Wilderness of Fortune Day
and the first one I did wasthe Legend of Giant Ridge, and that
was just sort of your typical northWoods course, very traditional. So if
(06:55):
you have the site, then theowner's goals, you know, dictate,
you know, the general direct thegolf course. Each one gets a sense
of site, a sense of place, and they each turn out a little
different. When you get a newproject, do you take a tour of
the other local courses to see whatthey're doing, how they're doing it,
and how you can make your standout. I do, you know, I
(07:18):
think you know, golfers may ormay not understand sort of the business aspect,
but I look at other courses.You know, the benchmark mine against
theirs, and then obviously you dowell in business by building a better mouse
trap. So, like I say, benchmarking it against the nearest competition,
is it makes a good business sensefor the owner. Have you had an
(07:42):
owner that you said, you knowwhat, this is not gonna work for
me. And I'm not asking fornames, obviously, but I mean it's
like the philosophies were so diametrically opposedthat you just couldn't get on the same
page. You know, I've neverbeen one of those kind of architects.
Like I say, I think someof you guys do, perhaps you know,
(08:03):
fight with their owners. Let's sayI don't see the point because there's
just more than one way to skina cap. And of course hopefully you
know all some of those stories arelegendary in any design field. You would
think the owner would have had thosediscussions before the contract was signed in the
first check was written. So youthink so you mentioned a moment ago you
(08:28):
have a dozen courses in Dallas thatyou've done. Yeah, actually, I
think it's a Baker's dozen. Ithink I've done thirteen in my twenty something
years here. And you're not primarilyfocused on local design. I mean I
would think that any job, anyopportunity, anywhere in the world would be
appealing. Well, yeah, Imean I actually probably don't do as much
(08:54):
local work as some of my competitorshere. Really, I still still enjoy
the travel. It varies a littlebit, but certainly like going to Minnesota
when it's one hundred and five degreeshere in Texas, Uh, and maybe
seventy five up in northern Minnesota.They got a lot of my attention those
years. And you know, werecently completed a renovation of La Costa out
(09:15):
near San Diego, and you know, and you get a chance to go
to the world you know, fourthor fifth rank resort. Uh. You
know, that's a lot better thanstaying in Dallas Fort Worth. Uh.
Yeah, how is La Costa?LaCosta is like, you know, that's
a that's like taking a canvas thatis highly recognized and then saying, now,
(09:35):
so you you're doing renovations, redesign, what do you do something that's
that you know what with the wordI'm looking for here that recog perhaps,
Yeah, I got it, Okay, thank you, I love it.
Well, uh, you know thatwas actually Dick Wilson, and uh,
you know, I started in thebusiness with Killing and Nusian and as it
(09:56):
happened, you know, in thesixties when they started their business, they
were benchmarking and they looked at RobertTrent Jones or Dick Wilson for their design
style and happened to pick Dick Wilson. So sort of professional lineage wise,
you know, I was very intune with what he was trying to do
out at La Costa, and Iwill mention that I teamed with Damien Pascuzzo
(10:18):
and Steve pad out there to dothese renovations. But you know, Dick
wilson style was not a big stretchfor me to basically restore, you know,
what he tried to do originally,because I felt pretty pretty much that
his style was very solid. Hisstyle was a little difficult. All of
his greens are elevated and he putfrontel bunkers, and you know, and
(10:41):
playing the course with women and averagegolfers, you know, found a lot
of shots found those front bunkers.So as a result, we pushed him
aside just a little bit, tryto make a little more playable. But
you know, it was just funto try to think what Dick Wilson was
thinking. Actually, part of thatcourse was done after his death by Joe
Lee and some of his other associates, and so what we had to do
(11:03):
is sort of blend it back tothe best part of the golf course when
Dick Wilson was still alive and stillworking on it. So there's always some
compromise, there's always some value judgments, you know Ouiji board say, you
know that kind of stuff. Tryingto trying to get back in time and
recreate the thought process of the regionalarchitect. How about designing on an etche
sketch. I boll him for mygrandson the other day. Those dye things
(11:30):
are addictive when you start playing withthem, but wow, you bought some
for your grandson. It's like nobatteries required. How'd you do that?
Always trying to get him to goold school, you know, other than
video games, you know, showthem what it was like back in the
stone, aged to be a kid. Yeah, Graham sayings, okay,
(11:50):
can you now buy me some electronics? That's right? What's this thing do?
Yeah? Right? What's this knob? For a knob? What's a
knob? Give me? Give mea pleasure to give me a tap screen?
Did you ever walk up to theTV and start tapping on the TV?
Going? How come it's not working? So how is business in the
(12:16):
United States these days for you?And what's happening internationally? Well, I
have more I think more fortunate thanmost of my brethren. Like I just
mentioned La Costa, you know,which took up most to last year,
and it's open officially it's opened alimited play by members right now. And
(12:37):
the year before that, we openedup fire Keeper in Maeta, Kansas,
which was a co design with notesof the gay Native American casino and resort.
It's a great site golf week.You're just named it the top course
in Kansas. The planting actually ColbertHills, another one of my designs,
and bumping that to two, andbumping another design of mine, Sand Creek
(12:58):
Station in Newton to three. SoI've got a hat trick going there in
Kansas. But you know so thatboth you know, LaCosta because of what
it is, has been getting lotsof good press, and it was just
a high profile project fire keeper whowas one of only eleven new courses to
open the year before. So uhyeah, I maintained pretty well on the
international front. I've done some legworkin China. You know, nothing has
(13:24):
gotten under construction, which is actuallypretty typical over there. There's a lot
more projects start and then get underconstruction. Just hard to know who's for
real over there. Yeah, soit's it's something you kind of shy away
from doing the international stuff as longas you can keep busy here in the
States. Well, now my kidsare all in college or out of college
(13:45):
now, so uh you know,I did some international work twenty years ago,
you know, while they were tooyoung to know I was gone,
I guess, and sort of shiedaway forward for a long time for family
reasons. But now you know,I've been pursuing it. But I you
know, like I said, sohard hours for real, I've been working
better than going to the golf showsand chasing stuff Lilly Nelly. If I
(14:05):
can get a recommendation through a mutualfriend and somebody I know. You know,
then I'll do some work over there. I've spent a lot of time
running around twenty years ago, anduh, you know that doesn't that doesn't
pay. I know some of thearchitects have spent quarter million dollars chasing work
and you know, maybe have onecourse under construction. So just a hard
(14:26):
market to know. By the timethat this episode of the Golf Smarter podcast
gets published, I will have alreadyreturned from my weekend trip to play a
couple of rounds in Dallas. Andthat's why I got back in touch with
you is because one of the coursesthat while I was doing my research,
(14:46):
one that hopefully will have up somevideo of it on golf Smarter TV very
soon, is the only NFL themedcourse in the United States, and I
I thought that sounds like a greatstory, and in doing some reading,
I saw your name associated, soI had to call you. Tell me
(15:07):
about the Cowboys Golf Club. Theproject started about nineteen eighty nine, ended
up taking until two thousand and oneto get it opened, but one of
the hotels there, Hilton Conference Center, had the idea to put a golf
course right there next door, andit's near the airport, and you know,
(15:30):
just a great incown location. Theland is actually a corps of engineer's
land that had been leased by thecity of grape Fine, Texas for one
hundred years and they had built apublic course there. So it was just
a fantastic site, untouched, youknow, heavily wooded corp golf course,
just waiting for something to be done, and they don't work their way through,
(15:52):
and we're looking for financing and whatever, and through contacts, somebody knew
Jerry Jones and he expressed interest in, you know, becoming a partner in
the golf course and doing an NFLteam golf course. And you know,
in Dallas, Texas, you know, we have all, you know,
one hundred courses here, and we'vehad all the signature designers and whatnot,
(16:12):
and you know, probably there's nobetter theme or brand in Dallas and maybe
a lot of other places than theDallas Cowboys. So when mister Jones decided
to come on, it just seemedto fit together. He must have been
very excited. Whose idea was itto say, look at now that you're
here, We've got this idea like, yes, yeah, well I was
(16:37):
partner in the project. Is EvergreenAlliance Eagle Golf I think, I think
in the Hillton maintains a small portionof the project too, And somehow they
just knew each other and you know, decided it would be a great thing.
And Jerry and even more Stephen Joneshis son, you know, unlike
his reputation for you know, managinghis football team, being very zob you
(17:00):
know, I thought he was agreat, great guy to work for.
You know, we had some earlymeetings and then some you know, critical
sight reviews, and I say,gave us the big picture, and you
know, oddly enough early discussions,he says, you know, we'll do
the theme in the clubhouse. ButI like traditional golf courses, so let's
not you know, do any gimmicksyou go out there. The putting green
(17:22):
was originally shaped like a Dallas Star, you know, the Cowboys Star,
and down the foot of hall whichhas a huge elevated tee and it's got
a chance at laying up or drivingthe green that they did put out the
you know, the bluestar logo outin the middle of the fairway is sort
of the target for the layup,but there's a stone monument at every tee
(17:42):
sort of commemorating the history, youknow, one through eighteen, you know,
early start of the team through theirSuper Bowl victories. And they're right,
we've left some room for some artworkwhich has not been put out there
over the years. But basically you'llgo out and you see it's just a
great, you know, core course, a traditional coursely wooded, and you
know, just a lot of funto play with, just touches of the
(18:03):
Cowboys team. So it's not likeyou're teeing off and all of a sudden
somebody and pads just comes and knocksyou over. I mean, it's it's
not like a roller coaster, right, it's not the same that would be
that would be a tough course.This is the hole sixty five. Yeah,
and it's so what hole should Ibe if I have my camera,
(18:26):
if I have some video with me, what are the signature holes that I
should be looking towards that are visuallycompelling? Well, holes two and four,
both of you know, maybe seventyor eighty foot drops from the tee,
very unusual for the Dallas area.And then most people say, wow,
this feels like a hill country courserather than a down there Austin rather
(18:47):
than Dallas, so those get alot of attention, and then it plays
along the valley and then you know, coming back uphill, the seventeenth hole
is along part three. What arethe few uphill par threes have ever designed?
And it really is spectacular, heavilybunkered, and uh there's a tough
pin back of left, which ofcourse has been dubbed the Coffin corner,
(19:08):
trying to get your punt to landon the you know, the corner in
the five yard line or something.So you know, the rest is just
you know, very solid, verytraditional. Those big downhill and up your
holes seemed to grab the most attentionjust because it's different for Dallas. For
orth so, using the Cowboys brand, not even their name, just being
branded by the Cowboys is more ofa marketing appeal than something that caught your
(19:33):
eye design wise. Yeah, Imean, I was really grateful when mister
Jones and others, you know,decided to keep it as traditional golf.
You know, could have could haveturned out like a Circuits or Disneyland,
had you know, had you takenthat to some you know, logical extensions.
So I think they hit it justright on the on the overall theme.
(19:55):
I mean, the car girls wereCowboys jerseys. There's a replica Super
Bowl trophy in the clubhouse and whatnot. But you know, for me as
an architect, you know, wereally did have a free hand. I
mean, mister Jones, I saybig picture, he says, I like
traditional golf. Don't give me goofygreens. Although we did push the limit
there because older courses tend to havemore roly greens than new ones, so
(20:18):
we wanted to get some roll inthem to make them feel old. And
you know, actually the thing thatreally works again with the Cowboys is they
actually is busy during the week withcorporate events as they are on the weekend
with the casual golfers. And that'swhere it's aimed. It's just a great
place to take your clients out andentertain them, you know, the true
(20:38):
country club for a day, theyknock you out of service. They have
meeting rooms in the clubhouse and asa result, you know, trying to
make tea times fire sometimes to getthem on a Thursday than it is on
a Saturday or a Sunday morning,because they booked corporate outings both morning and
afternoon, right, and you toldme that, you know, we were
(20:59):
talking about playing an early Sunday morninground because we have to get back to
the airport soon after that. Andyou're like, oh, Sunday morning,
not a problem, that's going tobe easy to get a day. Well,
actually they give you a special evenon Sundays. They booked the eight
and the one o'clock shotguns because they'veremained popular and they have not cut their
fees despite the economy while they're youknow, maintaining the brand rather than discounting,
(21:26):
you know, so much like somany other courses have done well and
been successful at it. Yeah,they need bodies out there. So you're
saying that beyond number two, numberfour, number seventeen, I got to
check out the clubhouse. Well,it's impressive. It is impressive. You'll
(21:47):
enjoy that the whole experience. Theyjust do a great job out there.
You said that you've the number seventeena long uphill par three, that you've
not done a lot of uphill parthrees. So when you're looking at a
hill, you're at the base ofa hill and you're trying to imagine what
you're going to do. Well,what makes you say, you know what,
this should be a part three andnot apart four, or maybe we
(22:08):
should stretch this out and turn itinto a part five. How do you
determine what goes where when you're standingon a just a what you said,
a fantastic site. Oh well,you know the architect union and let's say
that I'd tell you that then I'dhave to kill you, you know.
Well, you know, on theseventeenth is just one of those deals where
(22:32):
it comes to be the part three. Of of course, they're always the
easiest to stick in, you know, because it's a single shot hole and
the power fours and the par fives. You know, depending on the kind
of ground. I mean, someoles just call out. The topography just
calls out for a certain thing,and you know, usually that you'd like
the keys elevated, like two andfour like to talk about. Usually I
(22:55):
like to place the greens and gentleup slopes because it just gives them a
nice setting and you know, andyou're routing it. H People are always
disappointed when they come to the officebecause you know, every architect, not
just me, has these little plasticgolf holes where you can just kind of
move them around on the plan,you know, and try out a lot
of different things, you know quickly, you know, when I have the
guys routing courses, you know,for me to review and look at.
(23:18):
Uh, you know, I tellthem if they can't get the first ten
routings done in a half an hour, you know, and then take you
know, then you start refining andtaking ideas. For me, it's you
know, it's just almost a numberscheme. You've got to be open to
try a lot of different things.And I say, usually you'll find three
or four holes just cry out togo, you know clearly where they are,
you know, maybe six or sevenon a great site. And in
(23:41):
other cases, you know, youyou do have to make those choices.
Well, I could extend this tothe next deal and make it a par
five, or I could move itover here and make it a short four.
So you know, every site justpresents a real different challenge. And
so the term golf scapes and thenevery every canvas is unique. Huh,
(24:02):
every canvas is unique. You know. When I was doing the two courses
up in Minnesota, it was funnythey asked me, is a different I
said, well, the process isthe same. But you know, one
course, I was in the quarryand there's big tits everywhere, and there's
changes of topography that you want touse to create the golf hall. You
know, we're very abrupt. Andon the other course, at the core
(24:25):
as a giant or excuse me,the changes were long and broad. But
you know, you still look forthe same sort of changes of topography to
utilize. It's just they're different onevery site. M h. You said
visually, you look at it visually. So how often is it you're saying
it's it's visually demands the type ofhole it is versus strategically demands on what
(24:48):
you design. Yeah, you know, and some people, like years ago,
I remember Jack Nicholas said there's nogreat up fill holes, you know,
like the seventeenth through just talking aboutit really is a golfer. You
know. Basically what he's saying isyou want to see where you're going,
and you know, obviously that's easierto do downhill. And then things you
(25:10):
know, like say the greens usuallypresent best in a gentle uphill setting,
so you're sort of looking for thatdown to up sort of relationship. I
mean, there's a couple different variationsof it that you can use, and
so yeah, I mean, Idon't know. I guess i'd say,
yes, a great golf hole,you know, the bones of a hole
or the routing. You know,I do tend to look at it visually
as much as anything. How lockedin do you? How locked in are
(25:37):
you on the concept of got tohave two par threes in the front and
two par threes in the back endtwo par fives in the front, or
are do you like you know what, I'm going to go three and three
on this one or I'm going togo one in two or one in three.
Well, one of my courses herein Dallas, west Ridge up near
McKinney in the Northern Suburbs is actuallya six six sixth routing. And you
(26:00):
know they ask your question, youmean, like, yeah, there you
go. I've always wondered why youknow somebody can't go out and play six
holes or twelve or eighteen. Isthat what you're saying is instead of like
a back nine, that's traditional routing. I mean nine comes back to the
club's got six par five, sixpar three s par fours. Okay,
(26:21):
oh interesting again, just a wayto make one of my dozen of courses
here, you know, unique there, so and be honest with you because
in reality, the power four isstill the most efficient goal in golf.
I mean, you hit a tshot and again you have some strategy or
at least you know, get thefairway or you hit the rough and it
makes your approach shot harder or theangle that you take, and then you
(26:45):
have the approach shot, which ofcourse sets up the putt. You know,
the third or the middle shot ona paw five is usually fairly boring
unless you can, you know,make it a great heroical and you know,
par three there's no real strategy.I mean, you can have a
concept of how you hit the shot, but there's no relationship between the shots.
So and that, and you addin the you know, the acres
(27:07):
that it takes and the fact thatlong hitters are just making a joke out
of par fives. And I reallyfeel the future golf is going to be
in par seventy or maybe even parsixty nine golf courses. And the US
Open has been doing that USGA fortheir US Opens, you know, for
years, and you know, reallyI think par seventy two will go the
way of the Dodo bird here ina decade or so, and it will
(27:30):
focus more on par seventy. Andwhat about the way courses seem to be
dictated by the tour on getting longerand longer and longer. Is that is
that playing into you know, intothe long hitters' hands, or is that
make it definitely makes it a moredifficult course. Well, I have really
(27:52):
been reacting the other way. Imean, if I go play with the
average golfers, you know, golfin America, the guy sixty three percent
of players, nearly two out ofthree playing sixty three hundred yards and even
that, you know, might bea little long for him. Twenty something
years ago, I played in theLas Vegas celebrity pro am. When I
get paired with the likes of FuzzyZellar and Todd Watson and Jim Colbert and
(28:15):
Calvin Pete, and you know,granted they maybe hit a little farther those
days, but I was just behindhim, and so you know, the
idea of them playing seven thousand andme playing sixty seven hundred yards made a
lot of sense. But you know, Bubba Watson's one hundred yards by me
these days. And so I personallyand I see a lot of golfers just
realizing you can't keep up with thetour pros. And you know, so
(28:37):
I see a lot of golfers becauseI'm fifty seven myself now, So I
see a lot of golfers going fromthat sixty eight hundred yard tee the sixty
three. Yeah, my dad whenhe played, would never play under six
thousand. But I see a lotof seniors now realizing that, you know,
if the scorecard doesn't give him anoption at fifty six or fifty eight
hundred yards, they realize over sixthousands too long. And Sarah, I'm
(29:00):
a big advocate of shortening golf courses, ignoring that one ten to one percent
and hit the ball three hundred yardsor more, because really, that's so
few. I asked to I didwild Wing resort years ago, and I
called the superintendent. I said,hey, how many people use that those
back tees of seventy two fifty?He goes, well, fifty, I
said, well, is how manyof that a week a month? He
(29:21):
goes, that's fifty in the tenyears the course has been opened. Later
back oops. So you know it'sthe paraphrase. You know, Winston Churchill
never has so much golf course beenbuilt for so few. Really well,
he said that never has so muchbeen done for so by so few or
something. We're referring to World Wartwo and the soldiers so shamelessly paraphrasing a
(29:45):
great man there. But really Ithink most courses I always proposed to the
owners that let's just ignore the protour. Those guys aren't going to show
up even you know, you're goodamateurs who come and play. The number
who hit over three hundred very verysmall. And you know, then then
you can go to sixty eight hundredyard golf course and you don't spend that
(30:07):
much money. You know, youdon't use that much acres, there's not
as much irrigation to put down,and so on and so forth, all
for one tenth you offer those fiftytea times, you know, even fifty
a year, it's an awful lotof an expense going in. So to
me, I see that happening golfcourses, the designs being more targeted.
It's an interesting philosophical concept. Imean, to stretch your course to seventy
(30:30):
six hundred. You know, wehave really just tried to build every golf
course to accommodate every golfer and spenta lot of resources doing it. And
I think in the you know,in the future, I mean you look
at like a Prestwick in Scotland gotout of the British Open rotation, and
you know, you see the tourgoing to more and more to the TPC
courses designed specifically for tournaments. Again, I think we'll see more targets,
(30:55):
you know, maybe some courses forwomen or junior facilities. You know,
maybe you go to Lord, Alot of those courses might get shortened up
to that fifty six hundred because they'reaim more seniors. I mean, you
know, why enough Florida retirement community, do you need seventy two hundred yard
ts right? That makes total senseunless that they demand. It's like,
no, I've got to get thiscourse on the tour. If we're going
(31:15):
to be selling a lot of teatimes here, people want to be able
to play on courses. They saidthat has been on the tour, right,
Well, that's still going to befifty five courses out of fifteen thousand,
you know, something in that variety, maybe one hundred if you include
the women's tour. I'm in LaCosta hosting the ki LPGA to event this
(31:36):
week. But it's just funny.Almost every design they go to, you
get out there, and of coursethere's usually the good players you know who
get involved with that. And youknow, we stand on those teas talking
about tournaments that might come and say, LaCosta is one of the few you
know, has hosted the PGA tournament, may do it again. It has
great success with the LPGA. Butyou know there makes sense. You know
(31:59):
most other places, you know,we spend an hour talking about how the
tour pro would play this all,well, they just aren't showing up.
It's a waste of my last twentyminutes to discuss that. A moment ago
you said there's no strategy in apar three. You just want to get
you know, the ball to thegreen. But on a design sense,
(32:22):
if I remember you you talking aboutthis, because it's kind of always stuck
with me, is that you putin visual distractions on a like on a
par three to mess with the golfer, you know, like light, bumpers
and water and you know, thingslike that, so it's not just a
(32:42):
clear shot at the green. Right. Yeah, I mean I always felt
that because I've been a fan ofMcDonald and his protege Seth Rainer, and
you know, their Part three's werealways what I call concept shots, and
I tend to do the same thing. Either do a small green totally surrounded
by the bunkers, you know,so it's a real precision shot. Or
(33:04):
they would do what's called her adamn shot where the green was sort of
a reverse slope and they had toplay to the front right corner to get
it on the green. So withoutthe inter relationship of shots between the t
shot and hitting the approach, Flakesaid, I think Part threes are just
great, great holes to just testa certain kind of shot from the golfer
(33:25):
and to make up for that.Well, thank you so much for coming
back on the show. It wasgreat to talk to you again. I
cannot wait to play the Cowboys CowboysGolf Club and go to the clubhouse and
get some photos of two four andseventeen and have some fun playing golf in
(33:45):
Dallas. Thanks so much for comingback. It's great to talk to you.
Well, I will come out thereand join me in heckle you' all
the way around. I like thatjust what I needed, all right.
Thanks a lot, andreadis
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