June 17, 2025 • 37 mins
Ever wondered why tour pros rarely hit 60-yard wedge shots? Or why amateurs obsess over yardages that the best in the world actively avoid? In this episode of the Golf Well Podcast, host Cordie Walker sits down with Dr. Nico Darras of Golf Blueprint to unpack the real data, strategies, and myths behind distance wedge play. From launch angles and spin control to wind math and why setup is everything, this conversation dives deep into what the pros actually practice and how you can apply those insights to your game. They also explore how to think like a pro when it comes to decision-making, shot shaping, and course management. Plus, Nico shares behind-the-scenes stories from working with elite players and how Golf Blueprint is helping everyday golfers build smarter training plans. Whether you're working on your 60-yard shot or trying to understand how wind really impacts your ball, this episode is packed with practical takeaways and fun stories from the tour. Subscribe for weekly golf performance content and insights from some of the game's best coaches. Follow Nico: @golf__blueprint Visit: golfblueprint.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
There are a few key concepts youneed to understand if you want
to excel at distance wedges, andI bet that you're not thinking
about the impact of wind and allthe factors of affecting how far
you hit a golf ball. Those are just a couple of the
things we're going to talk aboutin today's Golf Well podcast.
I'm your host, Cory Walker, and today we're going to have just a
great, already super fun conversation with Doctor Nico
(00:21):
Darris of Golf Blueprint. We're going to dive into a bunch
of stuff, his experience with pros, he's working with, what
he's learned. I'm going to share, you know,
some of what I've learned from coaches and just it's just a
good conversation. If you're into golf performance,
you're gonna enjoy this. Make sure to subscribe or follow
along wherever you're listening to this or watching.
As we have more podcasts coming,Nico is going to come back on,
(00:45):
hopefully on a regular basis. We got a running Google Doc of
topics and we'd love your questions.
Make sure to comment below next time.
We can do a bit of Q&A. Plus, I have some other episodes
planned along the way here on the podcast.
So subscribe, follow along kind of a new channel or an old
revitalized channel here the podcast.
This is just so fun to do. So let's get into it with Doctor
(01:07):
Nico Darris. Nico, I want to talk about
distance wedges because I was stalking your Instagram and
you've been talking about like 60 yard edges or something about
trying to hit it close, not hit it close.
And so I thought we would start our conversation there.
What are you talking about? Like.
Yeah, I love this. I love this.
And I think it's the best mediumfor it because we can actually
(01:29):
like deep dive. The hard part with social is
that there's such quick clips and I try to go deeper into the
nuance, but basically everythingthat you and I love is in the
Gray area, right? Like it's, it's so easy to just
be black and white. Like you should hit it close
every time. You should never lay it up or
you should lay it up to your perfect number is like the two
camps of, you know, I'm better at 105 yards.
(01:50):
And the data is like, well, you're wrong.
So this really kind of interesting conversation with
with Claude Harmon and Ryan Chrysler this year.
We're looking through live data for a couple of their guys and
our guys that we share. And we're kind of finding like
nobody really hits it to 60 yards.
Like there's very few shots if you look at the PGA Tour
database and Liv's database fromlike, let's just call it 40 to
(02:11):
70 for just easy math. And, and when you think about
why it's like, OK, well, first of all, like why aren't there
that many shots? And then you realize like a
they're tour pros playing tour golf courses.
And I think for people at home, this is where it gets a little
bit squirrely. You and I, we play 400 yard par
fours. Like I'm sure we have a bunch of
them and they're fun and say we like Tomahawka Dr. hits the cart
(02:32):
path, bounces on a sprinkler andwe hit it 350, right.
You know, everyone hits at 3:50,then we have 50 yards into a
green What most country clubs that's like a great outcome.
Like you have 50 yards, the pinsin the middle and kind of hit
that like little chip shot up there.
It's in between a pitch and a chip and you make a great score
and you're like, wow, math is great.
You bomb it up there as far as you can.
The problem is on Tour A, they don't really play 400 yard par
(02:56):
fours and if they do, it's probably like a weird hole that
you can't really hit driver. There's probably a lake
somewhere or pins are tucked right.
You think about Korn Ferry Tour,like those guys have to to aim
at every freaking pin. So that's a whole nother
separate entity. You know, those guys are trying
to shoot 30 under every week, but let's just use the tour.
They don't play a lot of 400 yard par fours.
So guys aren't banging it down there 3:30 and then having 70
(03:19):
yards in #1 #2 on par fives mostoften they're trying to reach
into like that's just like an easy, yes, we all know the math
that like you should try to hit it on in two and then make the
putt. Like I, I can't believe I never
thought of that. But but in terms of the, the,
the 40 to 70 yard shot, it's probably a mistake.
So you typically hit one in an area that you don't want to be
(03:43):
because why would a tour pro have 62 yards into a par 5?
It like doesn't, it doesn't really make sense.
They either like whiffed A3 wood.
They you know what I mean? Like it's just a statistical
anomaly that we found. And that's why I'm so glad to
dig into this. Our guys don't practice it like
being realistic. They don't have a lot of them,
so they don't practice them. Therefore, they're probably not
(04:04):
that good at them. Now, if you're an average golfer
and you play a bunch of 370 yardpar fours, you bang at 300 yards
down there, yeah, you're going to score better.
But if you're a tour pro and you're playing, you know, 450
yard par fours every day, when are you going to have 50 yards
in? Like it's just it's not a number
that they oftentimes see. So the next time I want to like,
challenge a tour player for money, I'm going to go drop the
(04:26):
ball at 50 yards. No, I bet.
I bet they're still better. That's that's the problem.
I play this game too with my guys.
I'm like, oh, let's go play it at 62 yards and they hit it like
59 and I hit it, you know, 74. Like Tor.
Tor pros are superhuman freaks. You know, you, you and I have
seen that first hand many times.It's just a weird data set
outlier where there's just not alot of those shot opportunities.
(04:50):
I think we looked at Scheffler was 1.
He basically never had that. And that's partly due to good
decision making, number one. And then #2 not a lot of
options. If you and I go out and play a
6500 yard course and we are absolutely bombing our drivers,
we're going to have a ton of those.
And should we start laying up to90 yards?
No, like we should bomb it down there as far as we can.
(05:11):
I'm curious actually at Oakmont this week, I bet we'll see some
because guys are going to hit inthe rough so often where they're
going to have weird numbers in and then hitting a 60 yard shot
out of the rough is not fun. So, OK, so you were digging
around of how do I like when you're thinking about games and
stuff to build for people, you're just not really going to
do anything that's fitting in the 40 to 60 yard category.
(05:33):
We, we do some, we do some it's just in terms of like, we love
the warm up, like I know you didLil Jon, right, 306090 It's good
to do to, to, to have it in there.
It's a great warm up. So that if you are in that
situation, you're like, oh, I, Ihave a feel for this.
But basically like, I know DJ had a video a while ago, like
how do you hit a 60 yard shot? He's like, I don't.
And that was the whole catalyst for this idea of like, wait, do
(05:55):
these guys actually have 60 yards in?
And we kind of realized like they just never really hit that
shot. And if they do, it's probably,
there was probably a weird decision that led them to that
point. So our goal is like, let's just
not hit it there. I mean kind of a different way
to play. So I've gotten obsessed with
distance wedges because I figured I was terrible at it,
(06:16):
which I was. And then I've learned from a lot
of great people the last year did really good video with Mark
Blackburn where he went like really deep on it.
John Sinclair, he's got a bunch of data from top players.
And then then Claude, we spent some time talking about it there
as well. So like I really got into it,
realized I was one terrible out at 2.
I didn't understand the core concepts of it really even.
(06:38):
And so it was just been super fun to figure it out and then
work on it because it is like, gosh, I mean, how much time do
your guys spend on distance wedges?
Because Mark said his like his players are looking for a 2 yard
kind of gap right from what they're trying to hit is is kind
of the expectation. It's like.
Yeah, I can share an anecdote ofthat.
(06:59):
So we do, we have a wedge test on our end and the best we've
ever seen was world number one at the time.
And two weeks before he won the Masters, he had a 1.2 meter
distance gap from his 60° to his7 iron of what he perceived.
So we'd call the number he'd hitit and it was 1.7 yards
basically from those clubs. Like it, it's superhuman.
(07:20):
So yeah, Mark's dead on with that 2 yards.
We typically find like Korn Ferry guys are somewhere in the
three to four range. If we were going to like,
roughly estimate a mini tour, pros probably in the 5:00-ish
range, 5:00 to 6:00. And then amateurs, I mean, it's
just all over the map depending on, you know, if they work on
it, how much they work on it. But yeah, in terms of like skill
development time, it's a huge factor and and actually distance
(07:42):
wedges on both ends of the spectrum.
So let's talk about like the Super short hitters that play on
tour. We have a couple of those guys
on on our GB Tor pros that don'thit it very far for them since
wedges are maybe more important than the Super long guys, which
sounds really like counterintuitive.
But if you think about it, they can't reach par fives.
And if they get in trouble, they're basically punching out.
(08:03):
Let's assume they play Korn Ferry and they punch out.
They have to make par with a wedge.
They can't like bomb and 9 iron out of the rough, you know, 185
yards. They they just don't have that
game. They got to punch it out and
then they got a wedge it. And then on the other end, the
Super high speed guys, I know it's really, really public
information of what Claude and DJ did when DJ was world number
one. They just turned into a video
(08:24):
game like Claude. I don't know if you guys talked
about that at all. Did you guys talk about that,
what they did? Just a little bit, yeah.
Touch on what they what they did.
Yeah, Claude basically turned itinto a video game for him where
all they showed DJ was the number and then he just tried to
hit the number over and over andover again.
I think that's one of the most important things in, in the
last, I'd say 20 years of like data has been wedges because
yes, everyone's optimized now with their drivers, but now we
(08:47):
know exactly how far the ball isgoing.
And it's also one of the downsides for for amateurs at
home that might not have a launch monitor.
It is tough to work on wedges and like really precise distance
when you're at your local driving range.
And I'm using, you know, yellow balls at my local driving range.
And some fly straight and some dive and some go a little short
and some go a little long. So, so I I can fully empathize
(09:09):
with with people. That's tough.
What I have been struggling withlately is the concept is you
want low launch, right? Low launch, high spin is
controllable. And I don't know if you have,
you know any struggles with this, but man, controlling your
launch angle can be really difficult.
Like just this past week I've decided that anything under 85
(09:30):
is like is 60°, but anything over that, like I can't, I used
to hit my 60 up to 100 yards andI just like I can't get the
launch down on it. So I've just kind of, we've made
a decision. I got to go to, you know, 55 for
me from like 8085 yards on just cuz I, if I want to keep that
consistent like launch angle. And that's been a really big
(09:50):
battle that I've been like trying to figure out and like
constantly working on. Yeah, because you, you're a high
speed player yourself. Like how?
How hard have you found controlling launch angle and
spin and like what clubs to hit where and what?
Does wedges will always be toughfor me and every other high
speed guy, and I've used this analogy before, but it's like
driving a Lambo in a school zone.
(10:11):
Like it's, it's really, really, really hard to drive the speed
limit 30 miles an hour because you're taking so much speed off.
It's always going to be a struggle.
It's it's just, it is what it is.
Now that being said, we found some scenarios and some ways
that are around that, whether it's through setup, whether it's
through shot shape, I think is one of the best ones that we
found guys adding a little bit more cut spin, you know, maybe
(10:32):
driving in a like for one of my guys, he likes to hit a tight
little draw with a wedge, but hepretty much only fades it.
So finding out what works for you and basically throwing out
what you think is going to work.Like one of my guys sets up so
far left that you basically, youlook at him, you're like, where
is he aiming? Well, he does that to eliminate
his hips so that he can just gethis arms working down cleaning
(10:54):
up that contact. Because I think one of the
things that you alluded to, the contact's the most important
part of wedge play. Like if you're a little chunky,
if you're a little thin, everything else is thrown off
like that is a strike game hitting the center of the face
or you know, wherever your your strike location is with your
wedge. Some guys even tell them like I
know some, some of my guys will toe bang their wedges to kill
(11:14):
spin. That's actually like a really
cool way to do it. Really scary if you don't like
if you don't practice it. But yeah, you can take a ton off
if you hit like a a toe bang. Little low draw, really cool
shot. Sounds terrifying.
Yeah, it's, it's trust me, some of the shots, I'm like, I don't
know how these guys do it. They're they're superhumans.
Like the things that they're thinking about again, like, I'm
(11:34):
like, oh man, I just hope I, youknow, cover the water.
They're yeah, you know, they're thinking about like, the other
thing is, is, is that AMS at home can't think about is, is
ground spin. So pros control their spin
better than anything. So the trajectory is really
important. But what is the ultimate thing?
Like what is the ball going to do once it hits the the actual
surface, right? That's the most important thing
(11:55):
because your distance can be perfect.
And let's go to that 60°. Say you have 95 yards.
You can hit a 60° and 95 yards. I'm talking about you.
The problem is in the Midwest summer you might RIP that thing
off the front of the green. So what good does it make if you
have the perfect, you know, launch conditions and land angle
it doesn't matter. Makes 0 difference.
(12:16):
Yeah, no, I it's been really interesting to work on this.
And I think one of the biggest things that that I've had to do
is 1A launch miners non negotiable if you want to get a
distance wedges, right. I've just been staring at I've
been staring a lot at at launch angle and spin numbers and all
that. And then the other thing, I'm
(12:36):
curious what you think about this.
But I found like filming myself is just become essential because
you see so much, you know, if you're out not working with a
coach, right, you're just practicing like if you just have
yourself, so you have to get some kind of feedback.
So like, I don't know, I saw like, oh, it might look like
your ball position is middle of your stance, but it's not.
It's like forward, you know, like stuff like that, that if
(12:58):
you want to learn, then you got to look at some feedback.
So I found, yeah, launch it. And then film.
I don't know. Is video going to make a
comeback? That's my.
That's my. I don't know that ever left in
my game, you know, the film and everything.
So I think I'm the wrong one to ask on that.
Definitely the wrong ones. I think the if you're working
with a coach, trust your coach. And I always say this to people
like you need a guru, right? Like think about religion.
(13:21):
Like there's people that are spiritual and they have like,
you know, let's use the tour. They have like 6 different
people they work with at once. Doesn't really typically work
that well. Like you follow one leader, you
follow one guy and, and I think the best players in the world
have had that. They, they have one coach.
So for them, they don't need to film.
But for those of us at home, yeah.
I mean, if you're working on something like film it, it's a
no brainer. The only kicker to that is like,
(13:43):
are you A qualified to understand what's going on?
For a lot of people, the answer's no.
Like, and then B, did you find that video on Instagram that's
talking about XYZ Tor Pro who does this?
Maybe they do, maybe they don't.Maybe that's just their
interpretation of what they're working on.
And there's a chance that it's perfect for you.
Like there's a chance that you see the video, you see what
(14:04):
you're doing and it matches. There's also a massive chance
that like that person on Instagram misinterpreted what
that player's doing. They're probably not their
coach. And then you go out and try to
fix a problem that you don't have.
So I always preface that by saying to people like you're in
a different category where you get to work with the best
coaches in the world every day and you get your swing thoughts
and your swing feels for, you know, Joe on the driving range
(14:26):
who watches a video of an Instagram influencer breaking
down Victor Hovlin's swing, for example.
Like, dude, who knows if that's what is is going to fix your
golf swing? So I'm always like, I'm always
like very hesitant for people tocopy what they think or, you
know, if you're going to coach yourself, then like, hell yeah,
dude. Like lock in film your own
(14:47):
swings I would say. Though that like everybody could
probably look at their setup andlike at least give themselves 3.
Percent right dude. OK so so let's do the like.
Setup and ball position are the two things you can't fix
yourself. So and I I recently like got
back into playing like more everyday basically golf.
I took a little bit of break when I got tattooed and now I'm
back to it the first 3 rounds nojoke.
(15:09):
Or training aids where I literally had my guys stand
behind me and tell me where I was aimed because I'd be like OK
I want to start it off there andthey'd be like dude you're aimed
a fairway right? And I had no idea or the ball
position was weird. Could not agree more.
Either get a friend to check it for you that you trust or like
you said, film it at the range and be like, OK, my ball
position feels up here. Feel versus real is yeah, good
(15:31):
Lord. I was.
I was not aimed correctly. Yeah, it's funny you say that.
So I was, we just did a video with Luke Benoit.
He's he's up here and we're actually looking at it.
I don't, we weren't even talkingabout it, but he like just threw
an alignment rod stick down and I was like aligned way farther
left, probably a good 15 yards left to where I thought I was.
(15:52):
And it's just like, this is stupid.
I like, I, I actually, I think game's important and I like to
so important practice it myself and like test myself on it.
And I was like, no, I'm, I'm fine, I work on this, I've got
this, but it's like, no, like you, you do not have this.
You're clearly far off. So yeah, I think maybe I I'd
probably just gotten a bit too reliant on the on the stick down
there during practice times. And then you know what, it
(16:13):
happens to everybody, right? It's the most common training
aid on on a driving range there's.
A reason right like this is thisis the fundamentals.
I mean, grip, setup, posture, all those things are the
fundamentals. And there's a reason the pros do
them every day. Yeah, I love that.
Love that. And yeah, if you, if you can
film it, then do it. For sure.
The last thing with distance wedges that I want to talk about
is the clock system because I'vebeen working on this as I've
(16:36):
been kind of trying to dial all this in and this was a lot of
people talk about this. I think probably everybody I
talked to has talked about this from Mark to Claude to, you
know, like where you at and kindof filming yourself again,
filming yourself. And it comes in handy if you're
working on that because you haveno idea what 9:00 is by your
feel. It's just a construct more more
(16:58):
so in your brain, I feel like, but but the Grapevine says that
that you don't you don't like the clock system.
Yeah, the Grapevine is in 30 seconds before we started
meeting like, Oh my God. You have to reveal how the
research program works around here.
The the big great reveal. OK, so so I love the clock
system for most players and I think it's like super effective,
(17:19):
especially if you're a little bit longer, you have like a long
action. And I think that my job is
always to throw the hand grenadeand just be like, wait a minute,
but what about that one thing? So here's the problem with the
clock system. There is a very particular
player who is a big Spaniard whohas a very short swing.
How's he going to do the clock system?
He can't. And so designing games, how do I
get, you know, John to hit a 70 yard shot?
(17:41):
Well, it's a little bit different than, you know,
someone who has a big long swingthat's able to, you know, really
feel that 1030 move. So I always preface to people
like if you don't do the clock system, that's OK too.
There's other ways to take speedoff and there's other ways to do
it. The other thing is there's
there's some amazing research that shows that your backswing
(18:02):
length, like the longer your backswing, this is just like
really simple stuff doesn't necessarily translate to more
power or less power. Like there's guys who have short
swings that flush it and hit thecenter of the face.
They wouldn't be more powerful with more backswing.
So the same goes like for some players that go clock system and
they go say they hit that like 10-30 wedge, they actually hit
(18:23):
it better because they hit the center of the face.
They compress it more. That's where they are like,
let's say optimally, like that'stheir optimal strike zone, let's
just call it. And then they end up hitting it
further, which happens. So, so I always preface to
people like, yes, basic 101, if you've never done it, use the
clock system. But also because it's my job to
(18:46):
to understand the weird outliers.
There are weird outliers that hit it further with shorter
moves. Got it.
We'll get back. I, I wanted to debate that, but
we, we got to press on cuz I, wegot to, I got to stay on track.
Into that one. It's a fun one.
Yeah, I guess you got to have some kind of swing thought
though, right? Like you got to have some kind
(19:06):
of feel to hit a distance cuz you can't.
I think where people get in trouble is they just try to hit
a 70 yard shot. Like I think that's a poor kind
of swing thought probably to have.
So you do you agree you have to have some something?
And by the way, I'm over. I overwhelmingly agree that a
system works like I just, I couldn't agree more with.
Yeah, the one weird anecdote is Johnny, who like literally can't
(19:30):
have a shorter and he does like he takes speed off with a little
bit of a shorter move. That's something that him and
TBI Dave works so hard on, and it will always be a big focus.
That's just the one fun anecdotethat I'm like, but wait, there's
one person that you know. Yeah, I guess what another thing
which just, I don't know, a thought that Mark Blackburn
(19:52):
said, which has just stuck with me for for probably the last
year, just like a distance wedgeviewed as like an underhand
toss, which has been just such alike a great thought, so good
how to approach it because I don't think many of us not I
mean, there's always you could think of some people you kind of
like speed through it and dig orsay, you know, you kind of like,
but like this, this thought maybe next time of like an
(20:14):
underhand toss and maybe you're using the clock system, maybe
you're not. But it's like that is your maybe
tempo or vibe that you go for. There you go.
I'm handing out vibes from people.
What I love about that actually is Mark and I will say all the
best coaches in the world, they speak to players in a way that
they listen and I think that's what makes them great.
So you probably spent, I mean, how long did you spend with
(20:36):
Mark? Just just as like.
Two days, yeah. OK, so you spent two full days
with him. Like I'm sure he gave you some
like PhD level super genius stuff.
But like that one thing is what you walked away with.
And when I've gotten to spend time with, as you have all the
best coaches in the world, they are really, really good at
taking a very complex thing, right?
Just wedges is in general distance.
(20:57):
Wedges are so hotly debated online.
Wait till we start talking aboutshort game.
Oh my God, those are my favorites.
Like I love, love reading the short game debates, but the best
coaches in the world are able totake a very highly complex issue
and give it to you in a way thatyou could understand.
You walked away from that and you're like, oh, it's an
underhand toss. That's why Mark is so good at
(21:18):
his job. That's why you know, Luke is
amazing at his job is because they could give you things that
you could hear. And that's why, like some
players match with some coaches and and some don't.
But like, I love that for Mark. Like what a great analogy.
Yeah, no, I think that's what great coaching is ability.
It's the ability to communicate and relate to players 100%.
I think that is why, I mean, that is why some coaches work
(21:38):
for some players and some don't for others, like and that's a
good thing, right? Yeah, that's good for for every
player. OK, distance wages.
We we've covered a lot here. What else have we missed
anything on this? What else have I been thinking
about with? We've been talking about the
wind. That is something that you and I
have been with Nega obsessed with.
I don't know if we're going to tease that or you want to get
into it. That's.
That's one you might as well well, it's relevant because
(22:00):
Bryson's Oakmont video, I don't know if you watched that was
it's great. Like, first of all, that we're
in a world where, you know, a top player is making a YouTube
video before a major showing us a practical crown is like
whatever you think of the whole,you know, his whole deal or
YouTube in general. Like that's pretty freaking
cool. If you told us that 10 years
ago, I don't think anybody wouldhave believed you.
(22:22):
But part of his process is you will always hear him figure out
what club to hit. And it is super specific.
It is a like an equation. And I think that's the opposite
of how most people treat the wind distance and all those
factors, right? Like it's like it's not a, oh,
this is going to play a club long.
That's not like, I don't think that's a good idea.
(22:42):
I don't know what you think about that, but.
Yeah, so first of all, like, howcool is that that top players
are now using social media not as like a, I'm going to say like
a self emotion thing, but more of like genuinely teaching
players. And like I think getting to see
some of these matches in the behind the scenes, like, yeah,
they're produced. Yes, there's an outcome and a
goal. But like if you watch them, you
can learn a ton from what they're doing and what they're.
(23:03):
And a lot of guys are really open now, which is super cool
about their struggles, about their challenges, things that
they're working on things. Bryson's not one of my guys.
So I'm always like really clear about my guys and not, but I
love watching the videos from afar and especially his process
very unique, very different. Not how my guys do it, not how I
do it, but I love learning and getting to see, hey, what is
(23:24):
this dude who's winning all the time doing because it's working.
It's very similar to his putting.
He uses math and putting. I know there's some great guys
that that use math and and that whole mine there too.
Wind for me, the obsession has been trying to understand the
idea of a straight ball in the wind.
OK, so let's just like start there, right?
Let's assume that there's no wind and you're going to hit a 2
(23:47):
yard little little just beautiful high tour cut that
falls in with A7 iron like everyone's towering fade dream.
OK, so if you start there now you add a 10 mile an hour wind
off the left. OK, so now that same 2 yard fade
is going to move essentially with 10 yards of wind.
So now this is where the like Pandora's box for me.
(24:09):
And like waking up at 2:00 AM ina cold sweat trying to
understand how far left do you then aim?
OK, let's start there. You hit the same shot shape.
You just now have to aim the equivalent of whatever 10 yards
left is with your ball. Let's start there.
Now that brings in a massive problem set.
You might be starting out over water, you might be starting it
out over a bunk, whatever it is hazards, OK, or you change your
(24:34):
swing dynamics and you hit a straight ball.
Well, in order to hit a straightball with a 10 mile an hour left
wind, your swing dynamics have to change.
And so as I could see your eyes just like beginning to, you
know, do the process. This has been such a fun
conversation and like shout out Chris Brodie, Marty Durst.
I know you had Marty on there. Like King has the best ball lab
(24:54):
in the world by far. Like those guys are super
freaking genius and I text them like randomly I'll be like
Chris, like what about this idea?
You know, what about this? And so that has been like, I
don't even know how to describe it.
This has been my like pet project for a really long time.
What? What you'd set it up?
What? What's the answer?
OK, so the answer is if the answer is twofold, you're either
(25:16):
actually it's not true. There's three potential
outcomes. You either hit your normal stock
shot shape. You just play what you estimate
the wind to do to your golf ball.
Pings ball labs amazing and it can simulate your 7 iron.
You just have to start it. Let's just say I'm going to use
a a a #12 yards more left of whatever you think you would do.
Or I have a friend, John Tattersall, who's obsessed with
(25:39):
the straight ball. So in order to hit the straight
ball, then you'd essentially have to hit like a tight little
draw that starts at the pin and doesn't move because in order to
counteract the left wind, you'd have to hit the draw.
So now you have two shot shapes that goes against the people who
are like, well, you need one shot shape.
Then it adds into the idea of what about, you know, 20 miles
(26:00):
an hour wind. Now what do you do?
And then what do you do with a driver where most guys only have
one shot shape? So it's just been this like
really fun exploration of tryingto understand.
I don't believe in anything in golf.
There's a right way by the way, like I like you've heard, you've
probably heard me say that at some point, like there's no
right way to do it because if there was, everyone would do it.
(26:21):
The Tour is so competitive. We're all trying to find
margins. To me, it's just like my brain
trying to rationalize lowest score expectation outcomes for
the best players in the. World let's let's go through
like a a quick process though that people should be doing
right? Like so you have a shot, let's
just say fairway, you're going to have least amount of
variables there. You're you need to know your
(26:41):
average yard just going to go with your shot shape.
And then when let's say 10 milesan hour of wind straight into
are we at 10% off or we at 10 yards off?
What's that? It depends on this is the
kicker, right? So it depends on your what
you're trying to do with the shot.
We know this. We know that when the wind is
dead into our your face, your dispersion becomes wider east to
West. That's always that's ping shout
(27:03):
out balamic like that's going tobe a thing.
You're going to have a wider dispersion.
Here's the other kicker question.
Do you then try to flight it or do you hit your stock shot and
you just allow the wind to knockit off because again, stock
shot. OK, OK, So then like, yeah.
But like in Florida, for example, let's just assume
you're using your stock shot andit's blowing 30 in your face
(27:25):
your seven hour and might go 112yards.
Like, you know, who knows? Whatever.
You just go home. You go home is.
The answer at that point, those are the days that you take up a
new hobby and you text your friends.
You're like, why did I do this? Like why am I paying for this?
I'm paying for abuse. So to answer your question,
you're middle fairway. You have a 7 iron and you you
you then estimate the win. So there's a ton of apps out
(27:46):
there. I don't know if tournaments
allow guys depending on like I know in the minor league tour
out here, what not guys can use live wind.
That's it. I don't know.
I don't know what like your state Golf Association would say
about that, because if you can get live win data, hell yeah,
that's a game. Changer.
Interesting. I'd never I haven't heard of
that one. OK, so let's say if we have 10
(28:06):
miles an hour in, we're just going to take 1010 yards off,
right? So.
Yeah, depends on the guy. This is something that you would
that we do it where we go out and literally chart guys
distances with like OK, I have a7 iron, it's 10 miles an hour
in. I'm going to hit my stock shot.
I'm going to flight 1. Let's see the difference again
because some guys hit it better when they flight it.
So that becomes a problem. So this is just knowing your
(28:28):
game and understanding maybe your ball effects more than
mine. Maybe like I have a guy, you
know, shout out Ryan Gerard. Ryan Gerard hits literally flat
cuts that we all laugh about. Like I'll be standing on T, I'm
longer than him on the T, but I'll stand on the T and I'll
have a six iron and he has like a nine iron and I'm going like
what in got like one of us is sofar off right now on this par 3,
(28:52):
but he hits literally like a flat cut that doesn't get
touched by the wind. So for people at home, it's
owning your game. It's owning your decision maker.
It's understanding like a DanielBerger, for example, it's like
the most gorgeous chip cut you've ever seen, playing
completely differently than a Rory who hits like a towering
high draw. So that would be #1 like who are
(29:15):
you as the player? And then two, understanding that
your dispersion's going to be a little bit wider east West, and
I would say probably picking a bit more conservative target.
Those would be the two big decision making things that I
would start with shot shape, understanding A a real sensible
target. Let's just use that word and
then strike right? Like you got to hit the center
(29:36):
of the face in order to get the ball to do what you wanted.
Yeah, yeah. And then downwind, we're going
that it's that it's probably half of the of the wind then,
yeah. I think that's what the math is
sorted out, isn't that it? Doesn't it wind?
From what I remember it affects your ball into more than it
helps you downwind. Although downwind it does
tighten it and then it creates again like land angle is a big
(29:56):
one where like descent angle trying to understand what the
ball is going to do like this. I think in Oakmont it's going to
be a huge one where guys who canhit the ball high, they can stop
it versus if your descent angle is steep, you're going to hit it
and bounce through. You know some of those those
pool table type greens. I think, I think the biggest
shift for people to make is juststart doing a bit of math before
(30:17):
before they pull a club. I'm not just trying to guess
into the wind and say, all right, this is a, you know, I'm
going to chip this one instead of this one just because you
just get in so much trouble if you aren't, if you're not a tour
pro, you get a lot of trouble when you start to manipulate and
like, I'm going to chip this lowand like, you don't ever really
practice. So you don't actually know how
far that goes. And then you like, you're just
(30:38):
saying you're still, you're about.
Practicing that shot every day that like we always say, like
Daniel Berger hits the best chip6 iron in the world.
Like he can hit that thing 165 yards and it's just, it's
literally Picasso painting like it is and the most beautiful.
But if you're a dude who doesn'tpractice that shot, then yeah,
like go with what you've practiced.
Go with the shot that you've hiton the driving range and you're
(30:59):
like that hundred and you know that 7 iron, I might just be a
little, I'm gonna hit my stock shot.
I'm going to come up a little bit short.
And I accept that. That's totally a wonderful
outcome. I think people at home, the, the
you alluded to it like understanding and owning your
game. We all want to be better.
I show up every day. I'm like, today's the day I'm
(31:21):
shooting 56. Like I'm that guy.
I'm going to do it. But at the end of the day, it's
like I have to make decisions based on my skill level today.
And it can be humbling and it can be frustrating and it can be
disappointing. But at the end of the day, like
trying to get the most out of what you bring to the golf
course, that day is the best because then you can get better
by, you know, little by little by little.
(31:42):
Other other factors water I did a test.
I was out of pink. Did the test well that driver
goes shorter, way shorter. Yes, it was cool.
I was literally like back-to-back shots was 20 yards
shorter with with little water on the golf ball.
So that three nuts. That Ferrity interview with Phil
where he's in the leather jacketshout out Phil the homie Phil
talking about ball going shorterover water and.
(32:04):
If you get a little bit of waterin between the club face and the
ball, people don't know it actually increases spin I.
Remember talking about that and being like, dude, there's like
zero chance. Like, come on, Phil.
And he was like, no, I'm dead serious.
Like the ball goes shorter over the water, like even with an 8
iron in the morning on a par 3. And then sure enough, like you
went to paint and it's a real. And I was like, you know what?
Hell yeah, Phil? Like, I love that.
(32:25):
I freaking love that listening to that guy talk about.
It's one of the most amazing things.
And like anyone that has the chance to watch it, listening to
him talk about reading lies is one of the coolest things I've
ever seen a tour pro do. Like when the ball is on the
ground, predicting what it's going to do once it lands, I
think is one of the coolest things I've ever gotten to see
in golf. Being like, OK, it's sitting a
(32:45):
little bit down, this is Bermuda, It's going to bounce
once release and I'm going to hit this shot that is like mega
sicko stuff. I agree.
I agree. OK.
And then but with water though, wedges go farther cuz it the
water you lose friction. So they they spend less, they go
farther. That's the IT flips.
So that's another thing to thinkabout like when gauging it.
(33:08):
What do you what do you guys do when the math comes to like
being in the rough, being in thefairway, being on the T like off
a par 3T goes a little bit farther right I.
Think it depends on the other thing.
It depends on the water of like balls go shorter over water from
what I've understood too. I think it's like a very small
percentage. But again, like these guys are
(33:29):
playing for the margins. But yeah, keeping your golf ball
dry is everything. Like once you get moisture on
there, I know you did that with Ping, like mud balls, moisture,
your club face, all of that, like that.
That's the bare minimum of like,yeah, dude, clean your ball off
and keep it dry. That's I need to be better about
it. I think we all do, you know.
(33:49):
Yeah. OK.
So we've got our wind conversation.
You you're going to tell us I guess the answer.
I guess I'll give you my answer.I don't think that any of us
should probably Jack around withtrying to hit a draw or whatever
to be based on the wind. We should just try to hit our
shot and then do it based on thewin because I I know that I'm
not going to hit a better shot if I'm trying to hit a draw into
the wing to hit it straight, it's probably not going to go
(34:11):
any closer than if I just play it as is.
I can hear my business partner, I can hear my business partner,
the mathematician Kev, who just like is screaming at me to hit a
freaking fade because and here Iam like, dude, I bet I could
sling hook this thing in there right now, you know?
So so yes, I mean, it's pretty well established that like guys
(34:32):
who hit the ball with a relativeneutral shape, I'm not going to
say one way because I I will dieon the hill that I think you
need to be able to hit tight dispersion shots.
I'm not saying one way is the way.
I'm not saying both ways is the way.
I'm saying the best players in the world have very little curve
on their golf ball. Some guys love to curve the
ball. Bubba is the great example.
(34:52):
He do as I say, not as I do. Good Lord, am I hitting freaking
slingers, partner. Like I have 2:50 the other day.
I'm hooking A5 iron over the water.
I got houses right? And there's a reason that I
don't play their Professional Golf like there's a, there's a
reason that I shoot a lot of as,as one of my friends said, 60
(35:13):
fours that turn into 70 threes like it's you.
Know I like that it's not like. That not great, but but we're
trending and as I could hear Kevjust like screaming in the
background like 10 yards left ofthis pin like hit a fade.
I'm like dude this is the one like I can jar this like I.
(35:33):
I see it. I'm an artist.
I'm an I am. Don't let me tell you.
Me paint by numbers. There's Picasso and then there's
the little kids drawings on the refrigerator and, you know,
mines probably somewhere in between there.
I I feel like that's a good visual for people to end on.
Then our, our chat we've got, we've got more things to talk
about here. We'll have to, we'll have to get
on regularly here with you and and do it under a list of fun
(35:56):
things because you, you're always having good conversations
out there. I, I, I just like the Gray area,
right? I love nuance.
So to me, like I love, by the way, I love hardliners.
It's like my favorite thing in the world.
Like if you are a true believer,like if you are a sicko that
says you should only hit the ball one way, like get in my
DMS. Like, if you are a freaking
(36:18):
short game lunatic that says like, there's only one way to do
it, like, hell yeah, get in my DMS, Let's talk.
I I just love hearing people whoare like mega ultra passionate
about their thing. I guess I've always loved that
because for me, my job is to understand large swaths of data.
Like, if I have a guy who's going to try a crazy putter, I'm
(36:41):
trying it too. If, if you know, you think I
remember one of the cool things last summer was like D0 wedges.
That was like a, a fun short game concept.
Like hell yeah, yeah, dude. Like get in the DMS.
Let's talk about it. Let's get some Q&A's going for
for this pod. I would, I would love to hear.
I like that. OK, we'll get some questions
next time. We'll find some people with some
strong opinions and we'll and we'll talk about it.
(37:03):
But dude, thank you. People should follow you on
Instagram. That's always a good follow.
They can find find what you're working on and watch how much
you're playing golf. Playing a lot of golf these
days. And be jealous of that, I'm
definitely not. And then golf blueprint.com is
that is that the correct URL? That's us.
Yeah, yeah. Golf Blueprint.
(37:23):
We're we're, we always laugh. We're giving away everything.
You're just posting it on Instagram.
And, you know, whatever, whatever I'm researching,
whatever I'm talking about that day, our poor, our poor business
team consisting of my mom and Kev's wife are just like, will
you stop giving away the farm onInstagram every day?
But I'm, you know, just posting stuff.
(37:43):
Love it. All right, people should go
follow along on those then. Thanks Nico.
So stoked. Good to hang out.
Talk to you next. Time.
This is the best. See you soon.
There are a few key concepts youneed to understand if you want
to excel at distance wedges, andI bet that you're not thinking
about the impact of wind and allthe factors of affecting how far
you hit a golf ball. Those are just a couple of the
things we're going to talk aboutin today's Golf Well podcast.
I'm your host, Cory Walker, and today we're going to have just a
great, already super fun conversation with Doctor Nico
(00:21):
Darris of Golf Blueprint. We're going to dive into a bunch
of stuff, his experience with pros, he's working with, what
he's learned. I'm going to share, you know,
some of what I've learned from coaches and just it's just a
good conversation. If you're into golf performance,
you're gonna enjoy this. Make sure to subscribe or follow
along wherever you're listening to this or watching.
As we have more podcasts coming,Nico is going to come back on,
(00:45):
hopefully on a regular basis. We got a running Google Doc of
topics and we'd love your questions.
Make sure to comment below next time.
We can do a bit of Q&A. Plus, I have some other episodes
planned along the way here on the podcast.
So subscribe, follow along kind of a new channel or an old
revitalized channel here the podcast.
This is just so fun to do. So let's get into it with Doctor
(01:07):
Nico Darris. Nico, I want to talk about
distance wedges because I was stalking your Instagram and
you've been talking about like 60 yard edges or something about
trying to hit it close, not hit it close.
And so I thought we would start our conversation there.
What are you talking about? Like.
Yeah, I love this. I love this.
And I think it's the best mediumfor it because we can actually
(01:29):
like deep dive. The hard part with social is
that there's such quick clips and I try to go deeper into the
nuance, but basically everythingthat you and I love is in the
Gray area, right? Like it's, it's so easy to just
be black and white. Like you should hit it close
every time. You should never lay it up or
you should lay it up to your perfect number is like the two
camps of, you know, I'm better at 105 yards.
(01:50):
And the data is like, well, you're wrong.
So this really kind of interesting conversation with
with Claude Harmon and Ryan Chrysler this year.
We're looking through live data for a couple of their guys and
our guys that we share. And we're kind of finding like
nobody really hits it to 60 yards.
Like there's very few shots if you look at the PGA Tour
database and Liv's database fromlike, let's just call it 40 to
(02:11):
70 for just easy math. And, and when you think about
why it's like, OK, well, first of all, like why aren't there
that many shots? And then you realize like a
they're tour pros playing tour golf courses.
And I think for people at home, this is where it gets a little
bit squirrely. You and I, we play 400 yard par
fours. Like I'm sure we have a bunch of
them and they're fun and say we like Tomahawka Dr. hits the cart
(02:32):
path, bounces on a sprinkler andwe hit it 350, right.
You know, everyone hits at 3:50,then we have 50 yards into a
green What most country clubs that's like a great outcome.
Like you have 50 yards, the pinsin the middle and kind of hit
that like little chip shot up there.
It's in between a pitch and a chip and you make a great score
and you're like, wow, math is great.
You bomb it up there as far as you can.
The problem is on Tour A, they don't really play 400 yard par
(02:56):
fours and if they do, it's probably like a weird hole that
you can't really hit driver. There's probably a lake
somewhere or pins are tucked right.
You think about Korn Ferry Tour,like those guys have to to aim
at every freaking pin. So that's a whole nother
separate entity. You know, those guys are trying
to shoot 30 under every week, but let's just use the tour.
They don't play a lot of 400 yard par fours.
So guys aren't banging it down there 3:30 and then having 70
(03:19):
yards in #1 #2 on par fives mostoften they're trying to reach
into like that's just like an easy, yes, we all know the math
that like you should try to hit it on in two and then make the
putt. Like I, I can't believe I never
thought of that. But but in terms of the, the,
the 40 to 70 yard shot, it's probably a mistake.
So you typically hit one in an area that you don't want to be
(03:43):
because why would a tour pro have 62 yards into a par 5?
It like doesn't, it doesn't really make sense.
They either like whiffed A3 wood.
They you know what I mean? Like it's just a statistical
anomaly that we found. And that's why I'm so glad to
dig into this. Our guys don't practice it like
being realistic. They don't have a lot of them,
so they don't practice them. Therefore, they're probably not
(04:04):
that good at them. Now, if you're an average golfer
and you play a bunch of 370 yardpar fours, you bang at 300 yards
down there, yeah, you're going to score better.
But if you're a tour pro and you're playing, you know, 450
yard par fours every day, when are you going to have 50 yards
in? Like it's just it's not a number
that they oftentimes see. So the next time I want to like,
challenge a tour player for money, I'm going to go drop the
(04:26):
ball at 50 yards. No, I bet.
I bet they're still better. That's that's the problem.
I play this game too with my guys.
I'm like, oh, let's go play it at 62 yards and they hit it like
59 and I hit it, you know, 74. Like Tor.
Tor pros are superhuman freaks. You know, you, you and I have
seen that first hand many times.It's just a weird data set
outlier where there's just not alot of those shot opportunities.
(04:50):
I think we looked at Scheffler was 1.
He basically never had that. And that's partly due to good
decision making, number one. And then #2 not a lot of
options. If you and I go out and play a
6500 yard course and we are absolutely bombing our drivers,
we're going to have a ton of those.
And should we start laying up to90 yards?
No, like we should bomb it down there as far as we can.
(05:11):
I'm curious actually at Oakmont this week, I bet we'll see some
because guys are going to hit inthe rough so often where they're
going to have weird numbers in and then hitting a 60 yard shot
out of the rough is not fun. So, OK, so you were digging
around of how do I like when you're thinking about games and
stuff to build for people, you're just not really going to
do anything that's fitting in the 40 to 60 yard category.
(05:33):
We, we do some, we do some it's just in terms of like, we love
the warm up, like I know you didLil Jon, right, 306090 It's good
to do to, to, to have it in there.
It's a great warm up. So that if you are in that
situation, you're like, oh, I, Ihave a feel for this.
But basically like, I know DJ had a video a while ago, like
how do you hit a 60 yard shot? He's like, I don't.
And that was the whole catalyst for this idea of like, wait, do
(05:55):
these guys actually have 60 yards in?
And we kind of realized like they just never really hit that
shot. And if they do, it's probably,
there was probably a weird decision that led them to that
point. So our goal is like, let's just
not hit it there. I mean kind of a different way
to play. So I've gotten obsessed with
distance wedges because I figured I was terrible at it,
(06:16):
which I was. And then I've learned from a lot
of great people the last year did really good video with Mark
Blackburn where he went like really deep on it.
John Sinclair, he's got a bunch of data from top players.
And then then Claude, we spent some time talking about it there
as well. So like I really got into it,
realized I was one terrible out at 2.
I didn't understand the core concepts of it really even.
(06:38):
And so it was just been super fun to figure it out and then
work on it because it is like, gosh, I mean, how much time do
your guys spend on distance wedges?
Because Mark said his like his players are looking for a 2 yard
kind of gap right from what they're trying to hit is is kind
of the expectation. It's like.
Yeah, I can share an anecdote ofthat.
(06:59):
So we do, we have a wedge test on our end and the best we've
ever seen was world number one at the time.
And two weeks before he won the Masters, he had a 1.2 meter
distance gap from his 60° to his7 iron of what he perceived.
So we'd call the number he'd hitit and it was 1.7 yards
basically from those clubs. Like it, it's superhuman.
(07:20):
So yeah, Mark's dead on with that 2 yards.
We typically find like Korn Ferry guys are somewhere in the
three to four range. If we were going to like,
roughly estimate a mini tour, pros probably in the 5:00-ish
range, 5:00 to 6:00. And then amateurs, I mean, it's
just all over the map depending on, you know, if they work on
it, how much they work on it. But yeah, in terms of like skill
development time, it's a huge factor and and actually distance
(07:42):
wedges on both ends of the spectrum.
So let's talk about like the Super short hitters that play on
tour. We have a couple of those guys
on on our GB Tor pros that don'thit it very far for them since
wedges are maybe more important than the Super long guys, which
sounds really like counterintuitive.
But if you think about it, they can't reach par fives.
And if they get in trouble, they're basically punching out.
(08:03):
Let's assume they play Korn Ferry and they punch out.
They have to make par with a wedge.
They can't like bomb and 9 iron out of the rough, you know, 185
yards. They they just don't have that
game. They got to punch it out and
then they got a wedge it. And then on the other end, the
Super high speed guys, I know it's really, really public
information of what Claude and DJ did when DJ was world number
one. They just turned into a video
(08:24):
game like Claude. I don't know if you guys talked
about that at all. Did you guys talk about that,
what they did? Just a little bit, yeah.
Touch on what they what they did.
Yeah, Claude basically turned itinto a video game for him where
all they showed DJ was the number and then he just tried to
hit the number over and over andover again.
I think that's one of the most important things in, in the
last, I'd say 20 years of like data has been wedges because
yes, everyone's optimized now with their drivers, but now we
(08:47):
know exactly how far the ball isgoing.
And it's also one of the downsides for for amateurs at
home that might not have a launch monitor.
It is tough to work on wedges and like really precise distance
when you're at your local driving range.
And I'm using, you know, yellow balls at my local driving range.
And some fly straight and some dive and some go a little short
and some go a little long. So, so I I can fully empathize
(09:09):
with with people. That's tough.
What I have been struggling withlately is the concept is you
want low launch, right? Low launch, high spin is
controllable. And I don't know if you have,
you know any struggles with this, but man, controlling your
launch angle can be really difficult.
Like just this past week I've decided that anything under 85
(09:30):
is like is 60°, but anything over that, like I can't, I used
to hit my 60 up to 100 yards andI just like I can't get the
launch down on it. So I've just kind of, we've made
a decision. I got to go to, you know, 55 for
me from like 8085 yards on just cuz I, if I want to keep that
consistent like launch angle. And that's been a really big
(09:50):
battle that I've been like trying to figure out and like
constantly working on. Yeah, because you, you're a high
speed player yourself. Like how?
How hard have you found controlling launch angle and
spin and like what clubs to hit where and what?
Does wedges will always be toughfor me and every other high
speed guy, and I've used this analogy before, but it's like
driving a Lambo in a school zone.
(10:11):
Like it's, it's really, really, really hard to drive the speed
limit 30 miles an hour because you're taking so much speed off.
It's always going to be a struggle.
It's it's just, it is what it is.
Now that being said, we found some scenarios and some ways
that are around that, whether it's through setup, whether it's
through shot shape, I think is one of the best ones that we
found guys adding a little bit more cut spin, you know, maybe
(10:32):
driving in a like for one of my guys, he likes to hit a tight
little draw with a wedge, but hepretty much only fades it.
So finding out what works for you and basically throwing out
what you think is going to work.Like one of my guys sets up so
far left that you basically, youlook at him, you're like, where
is he aiming? Well, he does that to eliminate
his hips so that he can just gethis arms working down cleaning
(10:54):
up that contact. Because I think one of the
things that you alluded to, the contact's the most important
part of wedge play. Like if you're a little chunky,
if you're a little thin, everything else is thrown off
like that is a strike game hitting the center of the face
or you know, wherever your your strike location is with your
wedge. Some guys even tell them like I
know some, some of my guys will toe bang their wedges to kill
(11:14):
spin. That's actually like a really
cool way to do it. Really scary if you don't like
if you don't practice it. But yeah, you can take a ton off
if you hit like a a toe bang. Little low draw, really cool
shot. Sounds terrifying.
Yeah, it's, it's trust me, some of the shots, I'm like, I don't
know how these guys do it. They're they're superhumans.
Like the things that they're thinking about again, like, I'm
(11:34):
like, oh man, I just hope I, youknow, cover the water.
They're yeah, you know, they're thinking about like, the other
thing is, is, is that AMS at home can't think about is, is
ground spin. So pros control their spin
better than anything. So the trajectory is really
important. But what is the ultimate thing?
Like what is the ball going to do once it hits the the actual
surface, right? That's the most important thing
(11:55):
because your distance can be perfect.
And let's go to that 60°. Say you have 95 yards.
You can hit a 60° and 95 yards. I'm talking about you.
The problem is in the Midwest summer you might RIP that thing
off the front of the green. So what good does it make if you
have the perfect, you know, launch conditions and land angle
it doesn't matter. Makes 0 difference.
(12:16):
Yeah, no, I it's been really interesting to work on this.
And I think one of the biggest things that that I've had to do
is 1A launch miners non negotiable if you want to get a
distance wedges, right. I've just been staring at I've
been staring a lot at at launch angle and spin numbers and all
that. And then the other thing, I'm
(12:36):
curious what you think about this.
But I found like filming myself is just become essential because
you see so much, you know, if you're out not working with a
coach, right, you're just practicing like if you just have
yourself, so you have to get some kind of feedback.
So like, I don't know, I saw like, oh, it might look like
your ball position is middle of your stance, but it's not.
It's like forward, you know, like stuff like that, that if
(12:58):
you want to learn, then you got to look at some feedback.
So I found, yeah, launch it. And then film.
I don't know. Is video going to make a
comeback? That's my.
That's my. I don't know that ever left in
my game, you know, the film and everything.
So I think I'm the wrong one to ask on that.
Definitely the wrong ones. I think the if you're working
with a coach, trust your coach. And I always say this to people
like you need a guru, right? Like think about religion.
(13:21):
Like there's people that are spiritual and they have like,
you know, let's use the tour. They have like 6 different
people they work with at once. Doesn't really typically work
that well. Like you follow one leader, you
follow one guy and, and I think the best players in the world
have had that. They, they have one coach.
So for them, they don't need to film.
But for those of us at home, yeah.
I mean, if you're working on something like film it, it's a
no brainer. The only kicker to that is like,
(13:43):
are you A qualified to understand what's going on?
For a lot of people, the answer's no.
Like, and then B, did you find that video on Instagram that's
talking about XYZ Tor Pro who does this?
Maybe they do, maybe they don't.Maybe that's just their
interpretation of what they're working on.
And there's a chance that it's perfect for you.
Like there's a chance that you see the video, you see what
(14:04):
you're doing and it matches. There's also a massive chance
that like that person on Instagram misinterpreted what
that player's doing. They're probably not their
coach. And then you go out and try to
fix a problem that you don't have.
So I always preface that by saying to people like you're in
a different category where you get to work with the best
coaches in the world every day and you get your swing thoughts
and your swing feels for, you know, Joe on the driving range
(14:26):
who watches a video of an Instagram influencer breaking
down Victor Hovlin's swing, for example.
Like, dude, who knows if that's what is is going to fix your
golf swing? So I'm always like, I'm always
like very hesitant for people tocopy what they think or, you
know, if you're going to coach yourself, then like, hell yeah,
dude. Like lock in film your own
(14:47):
swings I would say. Though that like everybody could
probably look at their setup andlike at least give themselves 3.
Percent right dude. OK so so let's do the like.
Setup and ball position are the two things you can't fix
yourself. So and I I recently like got
back into playing like more everyday basically golf.
I took a little bit of break when I got tattooed and now I'm
back to it the first 3 rounds nojoke.
(15:09):
Or training aids where I literally had my guys stand
behind me and tell me where I was aimed because I'd be like OK
I want to start it off there andthey'd be like dude you're aimed
a fairway right? And I had no idea or the ball
position was weird. Could not agree more.
Either get a friend to check it for you that you trust or like
you said, film it at the range and be like, OK, my ball
position feels up here. Feel versus real is yeah, good
(15:31):
Lord. I was.
I was not aimed correctly. Yeah, it's funny you say that.
So I was, we just did a video with Luke Benoit.
He's he's up here and we're actually looking at it.
I don't, we weren't even talkingabout it, but he like just threw
an alignment rod stick down and I was like aligned way farther
left, probably a good 15 yards left to where I thought I was.
(15:52):
And it's just like, this is stupid.
I like, I, I actually, I think game's important and I like to
so important practice it myself and like test myself on it.
And I was like, no, I'm, I'm fine, I work on this, I've got
this, but it's like, no, like you, you do not have this.
You're clearly far off. So yeah, I think maybe I I'd
probably just gotten a bit too reliant on the on the stick down
there during practice times. And then you know what, it
(16:13):
happens to everybody, right? It's the most common training
aid on on a driving range there's.
A reason right like this is thisis the fundamentals.
I mean, grip, setup, posture, all those things are the
fundamentals. And there's a reason the pros do
them every day. Yeah, I love that.
Love that. And yeah, if you, if you can
film it, then do it. For sure.
The last thing with distance wedges that I want to talk about
is the clock system because I'vebeen working on this as I've
(16:36):
been kind of trying to dial all this in and this was a lot of
people talk about this. I think probably everybody I
talked to has talked about this from Mark to Claude to, you
know, like where you at and kindof filming yourself again,
filming yourself. And it comes in handy if you're
working on that because you haveno idea what 9:00 is by your
feel. It's just a construct more more
(16:58):
so in your brain, I feel like, but but the Grapevine says that
that you don't you don't like the clock system.
Yeah, the Grapevine is in 30 seconds before we started
meeting like, Oh my God. You have to reveal how the
research program works around here.
The the big great reveal. OK, so so I love the clock
system for most players and I think it's like super effective,
(17:19):
especially if you're a little bit longer, you have like a long
action. And I think that my job is
always to throw the hand grenadeand just be like, wait a minute,
but what about that one thing? So here's the problem with the
clock system. There is a very particular
player who is a big Spaniard whohas a very short swing.
How's he going to do the clock system?
He can't. And so designing games, how do I
get, you know, John to hit a 70 yard shot?
(17:41):
Well, it's a little bit different than, you know,
someone who has a big long swingthat's able to, you know, really
feel that 1030 move. So I always preface to people
like if you don't do the clock system, that's OK too.
There's other ways to take speedoff and there's other ways to do
it. The other thing is there's
there's some amazing research that shows that your backswing
(18:02):
length, like the longer your backswing, this is just like
really simple stuff doesn't necessarily translate to more
power or less power. Like there's guys who have short
swings that flush it and hit thecenter of the face.
They wouldn't be more powerful with more backswing.
So the same goes like for some players that go clock system and
they go say they hit that like 10-30 wedge, they actually hit
(18:23):
it better because they hit the center of the face.
They compress it more. That's where they are like,
let's say optimally, like that'stheir optimal strike zone, let's
just call it. And then they end up hitting it
further, which happens. So, so I always preface to
people like, yes, basic 101, if you've never done it, use the
clock system. But also because it's my job to
(18:46):
to understand the weird outliers.
There are weird outliers that hit it further with shorter
moves. Got it.
We'll get back. I, I wanted to debate that, but
we, we got to press on cuz I, wegot to, I got to stay on track.
Into that one. It's a fun one.
Yeah, I guess you got to have some kind of swing thought
though, right? Like you got to have some kind
(19:06):
of feel to hit a distance cuz you can't.
I think where people get in trouble is they just try to hit
a 70 yard shot. Like I think that's a poor kind
of swing thought probably to have.
So you do you agree you have to have some something?
And by the way, I'm over. I overwhelmingly agree that a
system works like I just, I couldn't agree more with.
Yeah, the one weird anecdote is Johnny, who like literally can't
(19:30):
have a shorter and he does like he takes speed off with a little
bit of a shorter move. That's something that him and
TBI Dave works so hard on, and it will always be a big focus.
That's just the one fun anecdotethat I'm like, but wait, there's
one person that you know. Yeah, I guess what another thing
which just, I don't know, a thought that Mark Blackburn
(19:52):
said, which has just stuck with me for for probably the last
year, just like a distance wedgeviewed as like an underhand
toss, which has been just such alike a great thought, so good
how to approach it because I don't think many of us not I
mean, there's always you could think of some people you kind of
like speed through it and dig orsay, you know, you kind of like,
but like this, this thought maybe next time of like an
(20:14):
underhand toss and maybe you're using the clock system, maybe
you're not. But it's like that is your maybe
tempo or vibe that you go for. There you go.
I'm handing out vibes from people.
What I love about that actually is Mark and I will say all the
best coaches in the world, they speak to players in a way that
they listen and I think that's what makes them great.
So you probably spent, I mean, how long did you spend with
(20:36):
Mark? Just just as like.
Two days, yeah. OK, so you spent two full days
with him. Like I'm sure he gave you some
like PhD level super genius stuff.
But like that one thing is what you walked away with.
And when I've gotten to spend time with, as you have all the
best coaches in the world, they are really, really good at
taking a very complex thing, right?
Just wedges is in general distance.
(20:57):
Wedges are so hotly debated online.
Wait till we start talking aboutshort game.
Oh my God, those are my favorites.
Like I love, love reading the short game debates, but the best
coaches in the world are able totake a very highly complex issue
and give it to you in a way thatyou could understand.
You walked away from that and you're like, oh, it's an
underhand toss. That's why Mark is so good at
(21:18):
his job. That's why you know, Luke is
amazing at his job is because they could give you things that
you could hear. And that's why, like some
players match with some coaches and and some don't.
But like, I love that for Mark. Like what a great analogy.
Yeah, no, I think that's what great coaching is ability.
It's the ability to communicate and relate to players 100%.
I think that is why, I mean, that is why some coaches work
(21:38):
for some players and some don't for others, like and that's a
good thing, right? Yeah, that's good for for every
player. OK, distance wages.
We we've covered a lot here. What else have we missed
anything on this? What else have I been thinking
about with? We've been talking about the
wind. That is something that you and I
have been with Nega obsessed with.
I don't know if we're going to tease that or you want to get
into it. That's.
That's one you might as well well, it's relevant because
(22:00):
Bryson's Oakmont video, I don't know if you watched that was
it's great. Like, first of all, that we're
in a world where, you know, a top player is making a YouTube
video before a major showing us a practical crown is like
whatever you think of the whole,you know, his whole deal or
YouTube in general. Like that's pretty freaking
cool. If you told us that 10 years
ago, I don't think anybody wouldhave believed you.
(22:22):
But part of his process is you will always hear him figure out
what club to hit. And it is super specific.
It is a like an equation. And I think that's the opposite
of how most people treat the wind distance and all those
factors, right? Like it's like it's not a, oh,
this is going to play a club long.
That's not like, I don't think that's a good idea.
(22:42):
I don't know what you think about that, but.
Yeah, so first of all, like, howcool is that that top players
are now using social media not as like a, I'm going to say like
a self emotion thing, but more of like genuinely teaching
players. And like I think getting to see
some of these matches in the behind the scenes, like, yeah,
they're produced. Yes, there's an outcome and a
goal. But like if you watch them, you
can learn a ton from what they're doing and what they're.
(23:03):
And a lot of guys are really open now, which is super cool
about their struggles, about their challenges, things that
they're working on things. Bryson's not one of my guys.
So I'm always like really clear about my guys and not, but I
love watching the videos from afar and especially his process
very unique, very different. Not how my guys do it, not how I
do it, but I love learning and getting to see, hey, what is
(23:24):
this dude who's winning all the time doing because it's working.
It's very similar to his putting.
He uses math and putting. I know there's some great guys
that that use math and and that whole mine there too.
Wind for me, the obsession has been trying to understand the
idea of a straight ball in the wind.
OK, so let's just like start there, right?
Let's assume that there's no wind and you're going to hit a 2
(23:47):
yard little little just beautiful high tour cut that
falls in with A7 iron like everyone's towering fade dream.
OK, so if you start there now you add a 10 mile an hour wind
off the left. OK, so now that same 2 yard fade
is going to move essentially with 10 yards of wind.
So now this is where the like Pandora's box for me.
(24:09):
And like waking up at 2:00 AM ina cold sweat trying to
understand how far left do you then aim?
OK, let's start there. You hit the same shot shape.
You just now have to aim the equivalent of whatever 10 yards
left is with your ball. Let's start there.
Now that brings in a massive problem set.
You might be starting out over water, you might be starting it
out over a bunk, whatever it is hazards, OK, or you change your
(24:34):
swing dynamics and you hit a straight ball.
Well, in order to hit a straightball with a 10 mile an hour left
wind, your swing dynamics have to change.
And so as I could see your eyes just like beginning to, you
know, do the process. This has been such a fun
conversation and like shout out Chris Brodie, Marty Durst.
I know you had Marty on there. Like King has the best ball lab
(24:54):
in the world by far. Like those guys are super
freaking genius and I text them like randomly I'll be like
Chris, like what about this idea?
You know, what about this? And so that has been like, I
don't even know how to describe it.
This has been my like pet project for a really long time.
What? What you'd set it up?
What? What's the answer?
OK, so the answer is if the answer is twofold, you're either
(25:16):
actually it's not true. There's three potential
outcomes. You either hit your normal stock
shot shape. You just play what you estimate
the wind to do to your golf ball.
Pings ball labs amazing and it can simulate your 7 iron.
You just have to start it. Let's just say I'm going to use
a a a #12 yards more left of whatever you think you would do.
Or I have a friend, John Tattersall, who's obsessed with
(25:39):
the straight ball. So in order to hit the straight
ball, then you'd essentially have to hit like a tight little
draw that starts at the pin and doesn't move because in order to
counteract the left wind, you'd have to hit the draw.
So now you have two shot shapes that goes against the people who
are like, well, you need one shot shape.
Then it adds into the idea of what about, you know, 20 miles
(26:00):
an hour wind. Now what do you do?
And then what do you do with a driver where most guys only have
one shot shape? So it's just been this like
really fun exploration of tryingto understand.
I don't believe in anything in golf.
There's a right way by the way, like I like you've heard, you've
probably heard me say that at some point, like there's no
right way to do it because if there was, everyone would do it.
(26:21):
The Tour is so competitive. We're all trying to find
margins. To me, it's just like my brain
trying to rationalize lowest score expectation outcomes for
the best players in the. World let's let's go through
like a a quick process though that people should be doing
right? Like so you have a shot, let's
just say fairway, you're going to have least amount of
variables there. You're you need to know your
(26:41):
average yard just going to go with your shot shape.
And then when let's say 10 milesan hour of wind straight into
are we at 10% off or we at 10 yards off?
What's that? It depends on this is the
kicker, right? So it depends on your what
you're trying to do with the shot.
We know this. We know that when the wind is
dead into our your face, your dispersion becomes wider east to
West. That's always that's ping shout
(27:03):
out balamic like that's going tobe a thing.
You're going to have a wider dispersion.
Here's the other kicker question.
Do you then try to flight it or do you hit your stock shot and
you just allow the wind to knockit off because again, stock
shot. OK, OK, So then like, yeah.
But like in Florida, for example, let's just assume
you're using your stock shot andit's blowing 30 in your face
(27:25):
your seven hour and might go 112yards.
Like, you know, who knows? Whatever.
You just go home. You go home is.
The answer at that point, those are the days that you take up a
new hobby and you text your friends.
You're like, why did I do this? Like why am I paying for this?
I'm paying for abuse. So to answer your question,
you're middle fairway. You have a 7 iron and you you
you then estimate the win. So there's a ton of apps out
(27:46):
there. I don't know if tournaments
allow guys depending on like I know in the minor league tour
out here, what not guys can use live wind.
That's it. I don't know.
I don't know what like your state Golf Association would say
about that, because if you can get live win data, hell yeah,
that's a game. Changer.
Interesting. I'd never I haven't heard of
that one. OK, so let's say if we have 10
(28:06):
miles an hour in, we're just going to take 1010 yards off,
right? So.
Yeah, depends on the guy. This is something that you would
that we do it where we go out and literally chart guys
distances with like OK, I have a7 iron, it's 10 miles an hour
in. I'm going to hit my stock shot.
I'm going to flight 1. Let's see the difference again
because some guys hit it better when they flight it.
So that becomes a problem. So this is just knowing your
(28:28):
game and understanding maybe your ball effects more than
mine. Maybe like I have a guy, you
know, shout out Ryan Gerard. Ryan Gerard hits literally flat
cuts that we all laugh about. Like I'll be standing on T, I'm
longer than him on the T, but I'll stand on the T and I'll
have a six iron and he has like a nine iron and I'm going like
what in got like one of us is sofar off right now on this par 3,
(28:52):
but he hits literally like a flat cut that doesn't get
touched by the wind. So for people at home, it's
owning your game. It's owning your decision maker.
It's understanding like a DanielBerger, for example, it's like
the most gorgeous chip cut you've ever seen, playing
completely differently than a Rory who hits like a towering
high draw. So that would be #1 like who are
(29:15):
you as the player? And then two, understanding that
your dispersion's going to be a little bit wider east West, and
I would say probably picking a bit more conservative target.
Those would be the two big decision making things that I
would start with shot shape, understanding A a real sensible
target. Let's just use that word and
then strike right? Like you got to hit the center
(29:36):
of the face in order to get the ball to do what you wanted.
Yeah, yeah. And then downwind, we're going
that it's that it's probably half of the of the wind then,
yeah. I think that's what the math is
sorted out, isn't that it? Doesn't it wind?
From what I remember it affects your ball into more than it
helps you downwind. Although downwind it does
tighten it and then it creates again like land angle is a big
(29:56):
one where like descent angle trying to understand what the
ball is going to do like this. I think in Oakmont it's going to
be a huge one where guys who canhit the ball high, they can stop
it versus if your descent angle is steep, you're going to hit it
and bounce through. You know some of those those
pool table type greens. I think, I think the biggest
shift for people to make is juststart doing a bit of math before
(30:17):
before they pull a club. I'm not just trying to guess
into the wind and say, all right, this is a, you know, I'm
going to chip this one instead of this one just because you
just get in so much trouble if you aren't, if you're not a tour
pro, you get a lot of trouble when you start to manipulate and
like, I'm going to chip this lowand like, you don't ever really
practice. So you don't actually know how
far that goes. And then you like, you're just
(30:38):
saying you're still, you're about.
Practicing that shot every day that like we always say, like
Daniel Berger hits the best chip6 iron in the world.
Like he can hit that thing 165 yards and it's just, it's
literally Picasso painting like it is and the most beautiful.
But if you're a dude who doesn'tpractice that shot, then yeah,
like go with what you've practiced.
Go with the shot that you've hiton the driving range and you're
(30:59):
like that hundred and you know that 7 iron, I might just be a
little, I'm gonna hit my stock shot.
I'm going to come up a little bit short.
And I accept that. That's totally a wonderful
outcome. I think people at home, the, the
you alluded to it like understanding and owning your
game. We all want to be better.
I show up every day. I'm like, today's the day I'm
(31:21):
shooting 56. Like I'm that guy.
I'm going to do it. But at the end of the day, it's
like I have to make decisions based on my skill level today.
And it can be humbling and it can be frustrating and it can be
disappointing. But at the end of the day, like
trying to get the most out of what you bring to the golf
course, that day is the best because then you can get better
by, you know, little by little by little.
(31:42):
Other other factors water I did a test.
I was out of pink. Did the test well that driver
goes shorter, way shorter. Yes, it was cool.
I was literally like back-to-back shots was 20 yards
shorter with with little water on the golf ball.
So that three nuts. That Ferrity interview with Phil
where he's in the leather jacketshout out Phil the homie Phil
talking about ball going shorterover water and.
(32:04):
If you get a little bit of waterin between the club face and the
ball, people don't know it actually increases spin I.
Remember talking about that and being like, dude, there's like
zero chance. Like, come on, Phil.
And he was like, no, I'm dead serious.
Like the ball goes shorter over the water, like even with an 8
iron in the morning on a par 3. And then sure enough, like you
went to paint and it's a real. And I was like, you know what?
Hell yeah, Phil? Like, I love that.
(32:25):
I freaking love that listening to that guy talk about.
It's one of the most amazing things.
And like anyone that has the chance to watch it, listening to
him talk about reading lies is one of the coolest things I've
ever seen a tour pro do. Like when the ball is on the
ground, predicting what it's going to do once it lands, I
think is one of the coolest things I've ever gotten to see
in golf. Being like, OK, it's sitting a
(32:45):
little bit down, this is Bermuda, It's going to bounce
once release and I'm going to hit this shot that is like mega
sicko stuff. I agree.
I agree. OK.
And then but with water though, wedges go farther cuz it the
water you lose friction. So they they spend less, they go
farther. That's the IT flips.
So that's another thing to thinkabout like when gauging it.
(33:08):
What do you what do you guys do when the math comes to like
being in the rough, being in thefairway, being on the T like off
a par 3T goes a little bit farther right I.
Think it depends on the other thing.
It depends on the water of like balls go shorter over water from
what I've understood too. I think it's like a very small
percentage. But again, like these guys are
(33:29):
playing for the margins. But yeah, keeping your golf ball
dry is everything. Like once you get moisture on
there, I know you did that with Ping, like mud balls, moisture,
your club face, all of that, like that.
That's the bare minimum of like,yeah, dude, clean your ball off
and keep it dry. That's I need to be better about
it. I think we all do, you know.
(33:49):
Yeah. OK.
So we've got our wind conversation.
You you're going to tell us I guess the answer.
I guess I'll give you my answer.I don't think that any of us
should probably Jack around withtrying to hit a draw or whatever
to be based on the wind. We should just try to hit our
shot and then do it based on thewin because I I know that I'm
not going to hit a better shot if I'm trying to hit a draw into
the wing to hit it straight, it's probably not going to go
(34:11):
any closer than if I just play it as is.
I can hear my business partner, I can hear my business partner,
the mathematician Kev, who just like is screaming at me to hit a
freaking fade because and here Iam like, dude, I bet I could
sling hook this thing in there right now, you know?
So so yes, I mean, it's pretty well established that like guys
(34:32):
who hit the ball with a relativeneutral shape, I'm not going to
say one way because I I will dieon the hill that I think you
need to be able to hit tight dispersion shots.
I'm not saying one way is the way.
I'm not saying both ways is the way.
I'm saying the best players in the world have very little curve
on their golf ball. Some guys love to curve the
ball. Bubba is the great example.
(34:52):
He do as I say, not as I do. Good Lord, am I hitting freaking
slingers, partner. Like I have 2:50 the other day.
I'm hooking A5 iron over the water.
I got houses right? And there's a reason that I
don't play their Professional Golf like there's a, there's a
reason that I shoot a lot of as,as one of my friends said, 60
(35:13):
fours that turn into 70 threes like it's you.
Know I like that it's not like. That not great, but but we're
trending and as I could hear Kevjust like screaming in the
background like 10 yards left ofthis pin like hit a fade.
I'm like dude this is the one like I can jar this like I.
(35:33):
I see it. I'm an artist.
I'm an I am. Don't let me tell you.
Me paint by numbers. There's Picasso and then there's
the little kids drawings on the refrigerator and, you know,
mines probably somewhere in between there.
I I feel like that's a good visual for people to end on.
Then our, our chat we've got, we've got more things to talk
about here. We'll have to, we'll have to get
on regularly here with you and and do it under a list of fun
(35:56):
things because you, you're always having good conversations
out there. I, I, I just like the Gray area,
right? I love nuance.
So to me, like I love, by the way, I love hardliners.
It's like my favorite thing in the world.
Like if you are a true believer,like if you are a sicko that
says you should only hit the ball one way, like get in my
DMS. Like, if you are a freaking
(36:18):
short game lunatic that says like, there's only one way to do
it, like, hell yeah, get in my DMS, Let's talk.
I I just love hearing people whoare like mega ultra passionate
about their thing. I guess I've always loved that
because for me, my job is to understand large swaths of data.
Like, if I have a guy who's going to try a crazy putter, I'm
(36:41):
trying it too. If, if you know, you think I
remember one of the cool things last summer was like D0 wedges.
That was like a, a fun short game concept.
Like hell yeah, yeah, dude. Like get in the DMS.
Let's talk about it. Let's get some Q&A's going for
for this pod. I would, I would love to hear.
I like that. OK, we'll get some questions
next time. We'll find some people with some
strong opinions and we'll and we'll talk about it.
(37:03):
But dude, thank you. People should follow you on
Instagram. That's always a good follow.
They can find find what you're working on and watch how much
you're playing golf. Playing a lot of golf these
days. And be jealous of that, I'm
definitely not. And then golf blueprint.com is
that is that the correct URL? That's us.
Yeah, yeah. Golf Blueprint.
(37:23):
We're we're, we always laugh. We're giving away everything.
You're just posting it on Instagram.
And, you know, whatever, whatever I'm researching,
whatever I'm talking about that day, our poor, our poor business
team consisting of my mom and Kev's wife are just like, will
you stop giving away the farm onInstagram every day?
But I'm, you know, just posting stuff.
(37:43):
Love it. All right, people should go
follow along on those then. Thanks Nico.
So stoked. Good to hang out.
Talk to you next. Time.
This is the best. See you soon.
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