Native grasses are often overlooked when it comes to pollinators, but they can play a crucial role in supporting many different types of pollinators. Tune in to this week’s Good Growing Podcast to discover how native grasses provide nesting and overwintering habitats, serve as larval food sources, offer pollen, and much more!
Watch us on YouTube: https://youtu.be/TCE-wQyjn38
Skip to what you want to know:
00:30 – Welcome, Ken. How often do we discuss grasses in pollinator presentations?
02:20 – What type of grasses are we talking about?
03:10 – Which native grasses do well in gardens?
06:15 – Native grasses as pollinator nesting and overwintering habitat
13:28 – Cleaning up plant debris from the garden
17:05 – Native grasses as larval food sources
23:20 – Native grass pollen as a food source
28:58 – Selecting and incorporating native grasses in the landscape
38:58 – Wrap-up, thank yous, what’s up next week, and goodbye!
Gardening with Native Grasses in Cold Climates and A Guide to the Butterflies They Support
Role of grasses in a pollinator garden
Contact us!
Chris Enroth: cenroth@illinois.edu
Ken Johnson: kjohnso@illinois.edu
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Chris Enroth (00:05):
Welcome to the Good Growing Podcast. I am Chris
Enroth, horticulture educatorwith University of Illinois
Extension, coming at you fromMacomb, Illinois, and we have
got a great show for you today.We're gonna be talking about
native grasses and pollinators.Native grasses being wind
pollinated, do they need insectpollinators? We'll see what
(00:26):
happens and how our nativegrasses support our insect
friends.
And you know I'm not doing thisby myself. I am joined as always
every single week byhorticulture educator, Ken
Johnson, in Jacksonville. Hey,Ken.
Ken Johnson (00:38):
Hello, Chris. Should be should be an
interesting one. I think this isone that people don't usually
think about as benefitingpollinators.
Chris Enroth (00:47):
I will say of the pollinator classes that I give,
the images that I show on myslides, I don't know if I've
ever had a grass, like, at apollinator. I've I've never
connected those two things. It'salways been wildflowers or
forbs, you know, purple coneflowers with, all manner of
(01:09):
insects on them. And so it it'snever been grasses. So, yeah,
this would be an interestingshow.
Ken Johnson (01:15):
Usually, I have one slide of grass. So after after
this, I may have to, put a fewmore slides into my grasses.
Chris Enroth (01:26):
I think so. Yeah. We've uncovered a couple of
benefits, of our native grassesto our pollinators. And so I
guess we should just dive rightin. I I I the only benefit that
I would teach in these classeswould be when it comes to
habitat and the nesting providedby our bunch forming grasses.
(01:50):
So what was your that that wasmy one slide. What was your one
slide that you would include, inyour presentations?
Ken Johnson (01:56):
It maybe the habitat, angle, well, that's
nesting overwintering, and thenjust the, I guess, design appeal
Mhmm. To just kind of enhancethe design, of a landscape. Or
usually the the to be the twoangles I will look at.
Chris Enroth (02:15):
So I guess that it might be useful to describe, you
know, how you know, what we'rewe're talking about when
referring to, like, nativegrasses, at least here for us in
Illinois. You know, we'repredominantly a tall grass
prairie state historically. Thatwould be big blue stem. That
would, also include, yellowyellow Indian grass. It would
(02:38):
include switchgrass.
I would say in some of the driersites, where you didn't have as
much soil moisture, you wouldthen be getting into little
bluestem, side oats grama, bluegrama grass, some of the more
short grass species. So thewe're talking about warm season,
(02:58):
bunch forming grasses. Grassesthat sort of form clusters or
bunches. They don't necessarilyspread with rhizomes or stolons.
Ken Johnson (03:08):
And I would say for for today, probably focusing
more on those smaller, thelittle blue stem, side oats
grama, prairie drop seed.Because you could put big blue
stem in your landscape, but youmay regret it.
Chris Enroth (03:23):
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Ken Johnson (03:25):
Color enforcement calling on you.
Chris Enroth (03:28):
Because big bluestem, true to its name, is,
big. And, I I I mean, they dospread as, like, bunches. You
know, the that that cluster ofgrasses only gets so big, but
big bluestem, they it just itjust takes over. It's just it
can be so aggressive. Same thingwith with with yellow,
indiangrass, same thing withswitchgrass.
(03:51):
When people are wanting to putin native grasses into a home
landscape, that's usually asmaller scale. I am normally
steering them away or kind ofrecommending away from more of
our historic tall tall prairiegrasses, and trying to steer
(04:14):
them more towards those shortgrass prairie species like
little bluestem. And and thatthat's just because it's a
little bit easier to managethose. I've I've seen several,
like, prairie gardens,pollinator gardens, where they
put a few things of bigbluestem, and after about five
to ten years, that's all bigbluestem. Because historically,
(04:35):
we had large herbivores thatwould roam across our prairies,
and they would their their majorpart of their diet, like the
bison, was grasses.
I think I've read inpublications of the past that
90% of a bison's diet, they'retargeting the grass species. So
with these grasses being suchbullies, such such aggressive,
(04:58):
that knocks them back, thatallows the wildflowers to then
take hold, and kind of reassertthemselves, and then the group
the grasses then kinda push themback out. It's just it's this
pendulum that swings in ourprairies over the thousands of
years that they were here, whichI do you have any bison in your
yard, Ken? I don't.
Ken Johnson (05:16):
As as much as a school as that would be. No. I
do not.
Chris Enroth (05:19):
No. Those fluffy cows.
Ken Johnson (05:20):
Best best I can do as a dog.
Chris Enroth (05:23):
Yes. You do have a fluffy dog, though. So
Ken Johnson (05:29):
You know, have to act as your own bison, if you
want if you want some of thatstuff.
Chris Enroth (05:34):
That is very true. Yeah. So you're gonna have to
con and, actually, I know a lotof folks that will they they are
farmers. They have CRP. Theyhave some of that big blue stem
because I think way back whenNRCS used to say, like, hey.
You are required to have bigbluestem or switchgrass or
something in here. And so nowthey have to actively control
those grasses, you know, ifthey're really trying to enhance
(05:57):
their habitat projects. And sothat the grasses just don't
completely take over and there'sno wildflowers.
Ken Johnson (06:05):
Yes. Enough of the bad. Let's talk about some of
that.
Chris Enroth (06:09):
Yeah. I'll yeah. Let's talk about these good
things. So, I guess let's let'sgo back to where we began, Ken,
habitat and nesting. So describeto me what you would mean by
insects utilizing our prairiegrasses as, like, nesting
habitat?
Ken Johnson (06:31):
Yes. There's kinda two examples. I'm sure there's
more that I can think of. Butbumblebees, I often hear about
not well, I mean, not often, butfrequently hear about them
nesting, at the base of bunchgrasses. So bumblebees typically
are nesting in the ground.
A lot of times, like, abandonedrodent burrows, some kind of
hole or depression in theground. But they all will also
utilize, like, the basis ofbunch grasses. They'll build
(06:54):
their nest there. And, again,these are these are social bees.
So you've got a a queen, that'sbuilding this nest, laying the
eggs, foraging.
Once the offspring are born, herdaughters, they will then take
over that and the queen just islaying eggs. But they're annual.
So this is a one year thing.It's not like honeybees, which
will go on for years and yearsand years. It's an annual thing.
(07:15):
So then in the fall, they'llsend out, new reproductive,
individuals, males and andfemales. They'll mate. The
queens will overwinter, and thatcolony will die off. But often
hear about them at the basis ofbunch grasses, hear about them
in compost piles, stuff likethat. So the you're if you're
incorporating these these nativebunch grasses, there there's a
(07:35):
potential that that could behabitat, for bumblebees.
Another one I think peopleprobably don't think about are
some of the grass carryingwasps. So if you're providing if
you have, like, the wood nestingbox or you're putting out straws
or reeds for native bee species,those cavity nesting bees,
leafcutter bees, mason bees,things like that. If you have
some of those holes that arestuffed full of grass, that is a
(07:58):
a native wasp several nativeseveral different native wasp
species, will utilize those.What they're doing is they're
going out and catching crickets,grasshoppers, things like that,
and they will lay their eggs on.They'll they'll sting them.
They'll paralyze them. Thatkeeps them alive. We'll take
those back to those, to theirnest. They'll lay their egg on
(08:21):
it. That larvae will eat it, andthey'll kinda divide their their
brood cells with that grass.
If you got a bunch of grasssticking out of some kind of
tube or some kind of hole, morethan likely that's one of the
grass carrying wasps, doingthat. I think tree crickets are
kind of the one of the main,food sources for those. So those
aren't usually getting intolevels where you have to be
(08:41):
concerned about them, but theyare helping to manage those,
populations of those insects.And these are solitary, so
you're not gonna have to worryabout them stinging you unless
you grab them or step on them.Like, they're not gonna defend
their nest like a a yellowjacket or some other social wasp
would.
Chris Enroth (09:00):
If there's something I love, it is,
uncovering some type of a leafcutting, grass carrying, some
some type of insect that isusing vegetation to line their
nest with. The the that is soneat. I I did come across I
think it was a leafcutter beethat was utilizing, leaves, and
(09:22):
she was packing this into ahollow stem. Oh, was it
elderberry? I I'm not it it wassome some cane forming shrub, in
the woods behind my house, and Iwas just moving things around
and the stem just snapped everso, like, very easily.
And I noticed it was just packedfull of leaves and frass. I
(09:45):
think it looked like frass. Youknow, it's powder Mhmm. Looking
things. And see if I can dig upa picture to send you, Ken, to
throw in here of that thatleafcutter bee, and that that
hollow stem.
It was it was very neat. I knowI have pictures. The question
is, can I find these pictures?
Ken Johnson (10:05):
Yeah. Yeah. For, like, the grass carrying wasp,
I've you read about them and,like, the window tracks or
sliding door tracks. You'll findthem a lot. I've got a picture
of an adult feeding on, mintthat I can throw in here.
I don't have any of themactually carrying grass. And, I
mean, they'll probably I'dassume they probably use just
turf grass too. But, you know,they they've evolved with our
(10:27):
native grasses, so you might aswell provide that. And the the
females will just go clip somegrass, carry it back to the
nest. So, again, likely, ifgutter bees are not taken enough
to do any damage, to thoseplants.
Mhmm.
Chris Enroth (10:41):
So speaking of, you know, these wasp bees that
utilize the, interior of otherplants for for nesting. You have
some great articles. I'mthinking of your fall garden
cleanup and your spring gardencleanup articles about how
(11:04):
insects utilize our standingplant debris for overwintering
habitat. Now we talked about howbumblebees can utilize burrowing
underneath these bunch formingprairie grasses. You know,
they're they're able to findthese little little niches into
the in that fine root systemthat, these grasses have.
You know, it's a very, you know,the roots aren't very thick.
(11:26):
They're they're finer. They're,but they're more fibrous,
creating more of that sod layerright below the surface, I
think, more protective. And sobut, Ken, in terms of, like,
overwintering insectsoverwintering in in the grasses
themselves, Do you see anyindication that they are using
(11:48):
the above ground vegetation? Arethey, like, kind of bedding down
near the crown of the the grassplant?
Ken Johnson (11:55):
Yeah. It'll probably depend on on the
insects and how they'reoverwintering. So you've got
some that may overwinter aseggs, on on those plants
potentially or as larvae or ifyou're pupating and those may be
down in the ground or at thebase or tied, to that leaf,
debris. So we can get into thisa little bit bigger. Our grass
(12:16):
feeding caterpillars and stuffwould be examples of that.
They're overwintering more thanlikely in those plants they're
feeding on. You got things likebeetles and ground beetles and
stuff will overwinter, in ingrasses and plant material. And
then they'll go out in thespring and feed on what we would
consider pests, insects andslugs and things like that. So,
you know, having that habitatthat they can overwinter on,
(12:39):
like anything else, you havethat habitat, they're gonna
stick around because they've gotthey've got what they need.
They're not gonna have to goaround and and look for their
habitat.
They'll stick around in thatlandscape where they where
you're providing them, with whatthey need. I wouldn't be
surprised if you could findother other insects, you know,
if you've got could be adultbutterflies and some species
(13:01):
will overwinter as those. Youknow, bees and wasps, you know,
they have their reproductivesoverwintering some of the social
ones. I've usually seen themmore in, like, logs and stuff,
but I I assume if you've got athick enough layer of grass
stuff, I wouldn't be surprised,you know, if you could find them
there, as well as as long asit's somewhere that's gonna keep
(13:22):
them kinda protected and theylike it, they'll use it.
Chris Enroth (13:26):
Okay. So being March 11 right now, it's really
nice out. It's so tempting to goout and maybe cut down your, I
have, several bunches of nativegrasses. You know, you can cut
them down. I do sometimes burnmy grasses, but it's probably
too early, isn't it?
We we we really need to waituntil we see a bit more green,
(13:51):
you know, trees flushing outwith their, with their growth,
seeing our lawns green up atleast because, you know, a lot
of the insects, they are notbeing fooled necessarily by the
warmer temperatures.
Ken Johnson (14:06):
Yes. Yeah. And in in an ideal world, we would wait
until you know, you think aboutwhen you plant tomatoes. Yeah.
By then the soils have warmedup.
It's in the fifties. Everythingthat's gonna come out is
probably come out by then. Thatwould be a good time to clean
up, but we don't live in aperfect world. And, you know, if
it's your front yard, youprobably most people would wanna
(14:26):
clean that up a little earlier.So if you are cleaning up, you
know, you're cutting backgrasses, cleaning up other plant
material.
Instead of putting that out inthe lawn waste or shredding it
or doing disposing it howeveryou normally would, If you've
got an area, stick that in thebackyard in a corner, until it
warms up. So anything that is inthere, can then emerge, and and
(14:49):
then dispose of it. And as faras burning, you'd run into this
with prairie burns too.Typically, when you're burning
that stuff, you don't burn theentire area because anything
that is overwintering in thereis gonna get burned up. So
typically, you only do part ofit every year just so you are,
savings what some of that stuffthat is overwintering.
So yeah. Just don't go don't doit all at once, again, ideally.
(15:11):
But that's sometimes easier saidthan none.
Chris Enroth (15:15):
That's true. Very good points. Yeah. And and I
don't always burn every single,grass in my yard. Sometimes I
will alternate.
And and and when I do and I dotry to delay trimming grasses
back as late as possible. Youknow, I I will even see the
green growth coming up from thethe the crown of that grass
plant. I I will then, take,like, the the shears and just
(15:38):
cut them down. I know a lot offolks have said, well, that's
that stunts, that green growthat the base of the plant, I've
never encountered that. And Ihave multiple different species
of grasses that I've done it to.
They seem to respond just fine.And and by the time we get to
mid to late season, they'vealready they they form their
(16:00):
flower. They they've begun toform their seed head, and it's
just like just like normal. SoI've I've it maybe it takes a
little bit longer for them toreach that that higher, the it's
it's mature height for the year,but, I have not yet stunted or
shortened my grasses by burningthem later than normal. And
(16:21):
sometimes I do it on purposebecause I'm trying to rain them
back.
Ken Johnson (16:24):
Yeah. I mean, I'll I'll probably do some cleanup
this weekend. We've got a or orhell strip or boulevard,
whatever you wanna call it, areabetween the sidewalk and the
road. We planted all nativeplants. But the neighbors across
the street have several oaktrees, so all those leaves get
trapped in there.
So we've got areas where we'veprobably got leaves six, seven
inches deep. So I'm gonna I needto rake some of that out because
(16:46):
it's gonna smother, the plantmaterial under there. So I'll
rake that out and probably justrake it into the lawn, and let
it sit and and probably andweigh back on the cutting back
and stuff. But but I will dosome we'll do a little bit of
cleanup just on that smotheringstuff.
Chris Enroth (17:04):
Well well, Ken, this show is is turning into a
spring cleanup episode here. Iguess I guess we need to get
back on track. Some of the theother ways that our native
grasses can support our our,pollinators, our insects, that
that they have coevolved withover the eons, and and the other
way is is as food. Now when wewere looking into this, you had
(17:33):
uncovered a pretty amazingtreasure trove of information
from University of Minnesota,about some of the ways that our
native grasses can contribute tokind of that insect ecosystem.
And one of those was as a larvalfood source, for a lot of our
caterpillars.
And I I noted, in this,Minnesota link that you had
(17:55):
shared that they they call out acouple specific, native plant
species. One of them being,prairie dropseed, another one
being, I think, blue grammygrass. These grasses, they they
note that, you know, even thoughthey might not be visited as
frequently by pollinators, theirflowers, these grasses are still
(18:16):
supporting pollinatorpopulations by larval food
sources. And so, like, withprairie dropsy, there are
several skippers that they spendtheir immature part of their
life cycle, their caterpillar'slife cycle stage on prairie drop
seed. And they're, you know, alot of these skippers, they're
very small caterpillars even.
(18:36):
You may never see them. Theyfeed towards the base or the
crown of that grass plant, Andthen that's how they spend their
their caterpillar life. They go.They pupate into an adult, moth
or butterfly, and then they willfeed on, nectar and pollen
resources. So it looks likewith, like, prairie drop seed,
(18:59):
this is what they've documented.
They know that there are atleast six native skipper
butterflies that feed on our,prairie drop seed, and this is
just kind of based onobservation. They say that
there's probably more, but thisis what they've been able to
study and identify. They knowthat with blue grammographs that
(19:19):
there is at least 13 butterflyand moth species that feed on
them, including, like, otherskippers, Blake's tiger moth,
the there there are skippershere I've never heard of, the
unca skipper, leonard skipper,Mead's wood nymph, but but they
(19:39):
list them all out. And the and Ithink it's a lot of this larval
feeding we we never really thinkabout. I mean, it happens to our
oak trees.
It happens to our our forbplants. It also happens to our
grasses that that they are alsosupporting many of our native
pollinators. So so yeah. Therethere you have it. Native grass
(20:04):
is larval food
Ken Johnson (20:05):
source. I mean, yeah, I'm as guilty as anybody.
We we focus on, you know,monarchs, and they want the milk
the after milkweed. We talkabout oaks because there's
hundreds of different speciesthat rely on those. The flowers,
yeah, we forget about thegrasses and probably because
these these butterflies, andmoths that are feeding on them
are not the big charismatic onesthat that we notice or really
(20:26):
care about is probably not theright term, but that's what I'm
gonna use.
And then we just don't notice.So, and we've talked about this
caterpillars of Eastern NorthAmerica. So it lists a couple of
the we talked about theskippers, subfamily Hesperianae,
which is the grass skipper. Soall the we'll say I'll probably
(20:48):
get myself in trouble becausethere's probably one exception.
But all these feed on grasses,as as a larval food source like
least skipper, bluegrass, ricecut grass, peck skipper,
barnyard grass, rice cut grass,which I'm not sure what rice cut
grass is.
But, I mean, this doesn't listall of them. And and the
(21:11):
skippers people have probablyseen, like, the silver spotted
skipper, before. That's a alarger skipper species that you
see flying around. It will feedon, let's see, it was false
indigo, locust, legumes, andstuff. That's probably one
people have seen before.
(21:31):
And then the the nymphs and thethe satyrs, Saturnian e. So
these are kinda brown. They haveeye spots, but a little more
they're kinda drab butterflies.So, again, stuff we overlook.
But there are numerous speciesthat rely, on these on these
native grasses as as a foodsource.
So, again, just the more diversethe more diversity of plants you
(21:54):
have, the more diverse insectpopulation you're gonna have in
your landscape.
Chris Enroth (21:59):
Yes. Provide larval food sources, provide
nectar food sources. And and nowI feel better about
incorporating more nativegrasses. I already have a lot.
But, now I'm like, well, maybe II I could go buy some more.
Ken Johnson (22:18):
And and sedges too, which aren't grasses, but, so
that that book we mentioned,it's gardening with native
grasses in cold climates and aGuide to the Butterflies They
Support. So this is from, likeyou mentioned, University of
Minnesota, and this is availablefor free on Apple Books. So I
know if you've got a iPhone oriPad, you can get it. We're not
(22:39):
quite sure if you have Android,if you're if you can access that
or not.
Chris Enroth (22:44):
I have Android, but my phone is so old. It's,
not loading for me. So, I'llhave to get back to you on that
one on Android.
Ken Johnson (22:55):
Seth. And we can, we're gonna go to link in the
show notes onto this. So if youare a non iPhone user or non
Apple user, let us know if youcan access it or not. Or and if
you can't, hopefully, you have afriend that that does have an I
an Apple product that you can'taccess it with.
Chris Enroth (23:13):
Yes. Find someone you can borrow their their
iPhone or iPad.
Ken Johnson (23:18):
And, another one for food that, you know, I've
observed, And, admittedly, didnot do an exhaustive literature
review for this, but didn'treally come across anything, in
literature is is bees feedingon, the pollen, of native grass.
So I've I've seen this in my ownlandscape. I don't think I've
(23:39):
taken any pictures of it,because usually the bees are
really small. But and again, wewere talking beforehand. You
know, we've both seen it onsweet corn, which obviously
isn't a native grass, but it isa grass There's monocot that's,
you know, it's related.
So I have seen it there, but Ihave seen it on on our our side
(24:00):
oats grandma. And when that'sflowering, I have seen small
bees and stuff visiting that. Somaybe not a major food source
for them, but still, it is stilla would be a pollen resource
for, bees.
Chris Enroth (24:15):
Yeah. I I think it's it's probably an area where
we need to do more study onthat, But I have heard
entomologists say that evenplants that are wind pollinated,
they will frequently findpollinators visiting those those
flowers, especially in pollenscarce environments. Like, a lot
of our kind of suburb suburbanor urban, environments, you
(24:38):
know, they might, you might finda lot of insects feeding on
shade tree pollen, even thoughmany of our shade trees, they're
wind pollinated species. I I satin on a session. It was led by
Morton Arboretum, entomologistwhere they were talking about
(24:58):
pollinators that visit flowersof ash trees.
And it was very interesting,very eye opening because you
think of some of those trees,ash, you know, maple, things
like that where they are youknow, that pollen is moved by
the wind. But they said in thesepollen depleted environments,
very often insects are going tolook towards these wind
pollinated plants. And when Ihave encountered, I've I've
(25:22):
watched bumblebees collectingpollen from, the tassels of
sweet corn, you know, I I recalllooking around me, and it's just
turf grass and, you know,thousands of acres of field
corn. Mhmm. There's not muchelse around for them.
So it it would make sense thatthese bumblebees are scavenging
(25:45):
pollen where they can whereverthey can find it.
Ken Johnson (25:48):
Yeah. So if you need another reason, there's
another one for you. Mhmm.
Chris Enroth (25:53):
So I I also kind of I had the this question
about, you know, insects goingafter pollen on grasses. So I
did reach out to AngelaMorehouse. Now, Angela, she is a
biologist with the IllinoisNature Preserves Commission. So
she she's she is an excellentbotanist. She is a fantastic,
(26:17):
entomologist as well.
Although she's she she'llreadily admit she was never
trained in entomology. But whenyou're out in the Prairie
botanizing all day long, youbecome, you know, a you you you
absorb that that entomologyexpertise, just because there's
there's insects everywhere in ahealthy prairie. So I did reach
out to her, and I asked herabout pollinators collecting,
(26:41):
pollen from native grasses. SoI'll just read what she said.
She said, it is not common butinsects will, on rare occasions,
feed or collect, grass pollen.
And then she actually sent a afew images that she gave us
permission to use on this show.So let me I'll share this screen
right here so Ken can see whatI'm seeing. So she, attached a a
(27:06):
few photos. This first one is, alacio glossum sweat bee. I don't
know if I said that right, Ken.
Lassieoglossum, and it iscollecting pollen from eastern
grama grass. So here it is, a areally good close-up of that
sweat bee collecting pollen offof this grammographs, or
(27:29):
grammographs. Sorry. And, again,another image of that. And then
she sent, another picture.
These are sedge sitter flies,and they are on, on a sedge
(27:52):
here, and and you can just seethey're all just hanging out,
pulling, pulling off of theseflowers. And I guess it's just
true to their name. They'resitting on that sedge hanging
out there. And so she's she'salways out there taking
pictures. She knows that there'sbee photographers that have
documented this, but she's notaware of very many, like,
(28:16):
scientific publications thathave have documented, like,
pollinator visits to nativegrass flowers.
So it's really pretty pictures.Encourage everyone this year,
get out there. Sit in a, like, aprairie grassland area, and take
a close look at those flowersall around you. I bet you'll
(28:39):
find a lot of insects out there.
Ken Johnson (28:42):
Sounds like if anybody's looking for a master's
or PhD project, there you go.
Chris Enroth (28:48):
Yeah. Just gotta find that funding, and then
you'll you'll be off for theraces. Alright. Well, Ken, you
know, we we we kinda coveredthis already, but maybe it
bears, maybe hashing over itagain. You know, when we talked
about our native grasses to use,what exactly are are we
(29:11):
referring to?
You know, we can we said folksmaybe steer away from those tall
grass prairie species like bigbluestem, really trying to look
more towards those short grassprairie species, which are not
as aggressive. And, you know,again, the the the resources for
Minnesota, just the ones that Ishared, you know, it definitely
(29:32):
showed that the the gammagrasses, the the shorter ones,
the side oats, grama grass, andthen our prairie dropseed, our
little bluestem, they are allexcellent larval food sources.
And, you know, I I would say theprairie dropseed and the little
bluestem, and I would even say,some of that that, that blue
(29:56):
gramma grass, I would say isgoing to be very available in
local nurseries. If not as astraight species, you can
probably definitely find them asa cultivar. I know terra as a
prairie drop seed cultivar is ispopular.
Terra is a bit smaller, a bitmore compact that could fit
better into a smaller landscape.And this is probably opening a
(30:20):
can of worms with nativars. Wellso I I can attest that Tara is a
wild selection. It was selectedfrom the prairie. You know,
there was no extensive breedingthat went into this.
It was just someone noticed ashorter, more diminutive prairie
drop seed. There's another onecalled carousel that is a little
(30:43):
blue stem that is also a wildselection. Again, no specific
breeding went into this. It wasactually selected down near,
Rushville, Illinois, out of a anursery out of there. So and
it's now kind of more it's it'ssold world worldwide.
So it's a carousel, little bluestem, terra, prairie, job seed.
(31:06):
You know, you could get yournativars. You could get your
straight species. That, dearlisteners, viewers, is up to
you.
Ken Johnson (31:15):
Something is better than nothing. We can
Chris Enroth (31:18):
There you go. I like that. Yes.
Ken Johnson (31:21):
You know? And for the, the book we mentioned,
what's the title now? Let melook. Yearning with native
grasses and cool climates. Soone kind of cool thing that they
do in this, is they list kind ofthe complete life cycle.
They've got they call itcomplete life cycle tables. They
have a grass plus a flower.We'll we'll help you with kind
(31:43):
of this this lepidoptera orbutterfly or moth. Just taking
the the larval food source,which would be the grass, then a
flowering plant that they'recommonly found on either in the
literature or in field guidesand stuff. So as just as an
example, something like let'sfind one that people would
actually wanna grow.
(32:04):
Side oats, grandma, andpenstemon species, which would
be hilltop little skipper. Now Idon't know if that's I don't
know if that's one we have inIllinois, but they they have it
in Minnesota. So they've gottwenty, thirty some of these
different combinations. So alittle little blue stem and,
purple cone flower. It'd beDakota skipper, Argo skipper,
(32:30):
Poashike skipperling, oatskipper, auto, auto, however you
say that.
So it's these differentcombinations that that would
potentially work and stuff. So
Chris Enroth (32:44):
I love that. That's I I remember being out in
the Prairie out in, Kansas inthe Flint Hills Of Kansas,
having a biologist talk abouthow the native grasses and the
forbs, how they they they growin and amongst each other, how
they support each other, youknow, from a structural
standpoint. You know, thegrasses keep the wildflowers
(33:06):
propped up. You know, theherbivores come through where
they eat the grasses. It's it isa whole community.
Now, Ken, you're talking aboutthese pairings of grasses and
forbs and wildflowers. Oh, thisit gets deeper and deeper the
more you learn. This is wild.
Ken Johnson (33:23):
Yeah. Well, and like you mentioned with the the
support, I think that's onething we overlook, a lot in when
we're doing our our prairieplantings is we want the the
flower. We want the forbes.We're not getting the grass of
what you're offering atstructural support. I think,
Erin Garrett and her one of hergrasses at a glance blog kinda
wrote about this where, youknow, like like you said, those
(33:45):
grasses are supporting thesewildflowers.
They're not flopping over. Sowhich I think is a common
complaint a lot of people haveis they flop, because they're
they're typically grown muchmore densely than we would in a
residential landscape, andthey've got these support nurse
plants, whatever you wanna callthem, holding them up. And
(34:06):
you've got that competition too,so that kinda keeps things in
check, getting keeps them fromgetting too too big as well
because you do have thatcompetition between plants.
Chris Enroth (34:17):
And and so this could then play into how, you
know, in a residential setting,you could design a garden bed to
support insects and pollinatorsby having your, let's say,
prairie drop seed, as more of anedging type plant. You could
(34:38):
then do a mass planting of, youknow, what what what have you,
penstemon. You heck. You couldeven do maybe even a dwarf Joe
Pye weed. Those grasses wouldhelp support, those taller
flowering plants, from that thatwould allow them to be more
upright, more visible maybe fromfrom the sidewalk or the road,
(35:00):
give you good curve appeal.
And then having an edging ofgrasses, you know, in in, like,
a line, that also indicates thatyou did this on purpose. It is a
intention. I think that'sanother valuable thing when
we're trying to incorporate morenative plants into our
landscapes. Now I was justtalking to someone the other
(35:23):
day, you know, what, you know,what does this mean by native
plants?
Ken Johnson (35:28):
I'm
Chris Enroth (35:28):
like, well, they're they're really wild
plants. They haven't necessarilybeen cultivated for, you know,
generations and generations in anursery to try to be the perfect
little plant that stays in itsspot, that that is the the same
height no matter what, the samewidth no matter what. These are
(35:49):
wild plants. Their genetics varyfrom plant to plant. So your
little bluestem might be alittle bit taller on one side
than it is over here.
I mean, there's soil conditionsand sunlight, things like that
that play a factor, but alsojust the genetics. They're not
clones of each other. They'rewild. They go where they want.
And, sometimes a native plantingcan look a bit unruly.
(36:11):
So if we give this a bit more ofa a design, eye of
intentionality where we'reedging plants, we're we're
structuring them from, like,short up to tall. That, I think,
will allow these to be a bitmore accepted by a lot more, you
(36:32):
know, groups such as cities,HOAs, you know, your your grumpy
neighbor, you know, you name it.Just it it it can probably be
more acceptable if we weapproach this, you know, by by
trying to marry our humanaesthetics with those needs of
the native plants and then howwe can contribute, you know, to
(36:54):
kind of a larger ecological,framework towards our yards.
Ken Johnson (37:01):
And even leaving a a one more with of turf that's
mowed around there makes it lookintentional too. So having some
mowed turf around it. Forwhatever reason, you know,
people associate that with thatLike it.
Chris Enroth (37:19):
Yeah. Yes. And if we go back to fire, sometimes
these things do catch on firewhether, on purpose or accident.
And having a a mode strip aroundthem is act is a decent
firebreak strategy too. So, Iknow we don't necessarily have
to worry as much about wildfiresin Illinois, but it does happen.
(37:42):
There's actually a a CRPcontrolled burn that occurred,
in Macomb just the other daythat got out of hand and and
crept onto a neighboring parcelswoodland. So, you know, things
happen. I I actually have my myparents' property. It caught on
fire when the neighbor kid whowas, sneaking a cigarette,
(38:06):
tossed his cigarette butt intothe leaves in the ditch, and
then it caught our cow pastureon fire. So, I mean, these
things happen.
So having knowing that you'regoing to be creating these
native plant, gardens that aregoing to be have a lot of debris
that will need to be managed,and it's flammable. So, just be
mindful of that. Having edging,having structures, rock,
(38:30):
benches, signage, all of thatstuff, I think, is is helpful in
the long term management,maintenance, and acceptance of
these gardens.
Ken Johnson (38:41):
Have nothing to add. Put that perfectly.
Chris Enroth (38:44):
Case closed.
Ken Johnson (38:47):
We're done. Alright.
Chris Enroth (38:49):
Well, alright. Let me hop off this, soapbox for a
second. I got way up there.Well, that was a lot of great
information about how our nativegrasses can help support our
native insects, including ourpollinators, even if we don't
necessarily think of nativegrasses as pollinator food. They
(39:11):
are and they can be.
Well, the Good Growing Podcastis a production of University of
Illinois Extension edited thisweek by Ken Johnson. Ken, thank
you so much for both editing andhanging out with me today,
chatting about the benefits ofnative grasses to our native
insect friends.
Ken Johnson (39:30):
Yes. Thank you. And, yeah, like I said earlier,
go out and study those grasses.See what's out there. You'll be
surprised.
Chris Enroth (39:37):
Take pictures.
Ken Johnson (39:39):
Yeah. And let's do this again next week.
Chris Enroth (39:43):
Oh, we shall do this again next week. We have
got some soil test reports toreport back to you. So we've
done some soil testing on someof the places where we garden,
and we're gonna go over thoseresults with everyone next week.
Well, listeners, thank you fordoing what you do best, and that
is listening. Or if you'rewatching us on YouTube watching,
(40:05):
And as always, keep on growing.
Alright. Well, that was a lot ofgreat information about how our
native glasses glasses. Glasses.My my native glasses. Let me
(40:27):
start over.
We just have man, we haven'tdone we haven't acknowledged the
fact that we we got past 200episodes and completely just
just didn't even realize it.
Welcome to the Good Growing Podcast. I am Chris
Enroth, horticulture educatorwith University of Illinois
Extension, coming at you fromMacomb, Illinois, and we have
got a great show for you today.We're gonna be talking about
native grasses and pollinators.Native grasses being wind
pollinated, do they need insectpollinators? We'll see what
(00:26):
happens and how our nativegrasses support our insect
friends.
And you know I'm not doing thisby myself. I am joined as always
every single week byhorticulture educator, Ken
Johnson, in Jacksonville. Hey,Ken.
Ken Johnson (00:38):
Hello, Chris. Should be should be an
interesting one. I think this isone that people don't usually
think about as benefitingpollinators.
Chris Enroth (00:47):
I will say of the pollinator classes that I give,
the images that I show on myslides, I don't know if I've
ever had a grass, like, at apollinator. I've I've never
connected those two things. It'salways been wildflowers or
forbs, you know, purple coneflowers with, all manner of
(01:09):
insects on them. And so it it'snever been grasses. So, yeah,
this would be an interestingshow.
Ken Johnson (01:15):
Usually, I have one slide of grass. So after after
this, I may have to, put a fewmore slides into my grasses.
Chris Enroth (01:26):
I think so. Yeah. We've uncovered a couple of
benefits, of our native grassesto our pollinators. And so I
guess we should just dive rightin. I I I the only benefit that
I would teach in these classeswould be when it comes to
habitat and the nesting providedby our bunch forming grasses.
(01:50):
So what was your that that wasmy one slide. What was your one
slide that you would include, inyour presentations?
Ken Johnson (01:56):
It maybe the habitat, angle, well, that's
nesting overwintering, and thenjust the, I guess, design appeal
Mhmm. To just kind of enhancethe design, of a landscape. Or
usually the the to be the twoangles I will look at.
Chris Enroth (02:15):
So I guess that it might be useful to describe, you
know, how you know, what we'rewe're talking about when
referring to, like, nativegrasses, at least here for us in
Illinois. You know, we'repredominantly a tall grass
prairie state historically. Thatwould be big blue stem. That
would, also include, yellowyellow Indian grass. It would
(02:38):
include switchgrass.
I would say in some of the driersites, where you didn't have as
much soil moisture, you wouldthen be getting into little
bluestem, side oats grama, bluegrama grass, some of the more
short grass species. So thewe're talking about warm season,
(02:58):
bunch forming grasses. Grassesthat sort of form clusters or
bunches. They don't necessarilyspread with rhizomes or stolons.
Ken Johnson (03:08):
And I would say for for today, probably focusing
more on those smaller, thelittle blue stem, side oats
grama, prairie drop seed.Because you could put big blue
stem in your landscape, but youmay regret it.
Chris Enroth (03:23):
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Ken Johnson (03:25):
Color enforcement calling on you.
Chris Enroth (03:28):
Because big bluestem, true to its name, is,
big. And, I I I mean, they dospread as, like, bunches. You
know, the that that cluster ofgrasses only gets so big, but
big bluestem, they it just itjust takes over. It's just it
can be so aggressive. Same thingwith with with yellow,
indiangrass, same thing withswitchgrass.
(03:51):
When people are wanting to putin native grasses into a home
landscape, that's usually asmaller scale. I am normally
steering them away or kind ofrecommending away from more of
our historic tall tall prairiegrasses, and trying to steer
(04:14):
them more towards those shortgrass prairie species like
little bluestem. And and thatthat's just because it's a
little bit easier to managethose. I've I've seen several,
like, prairie gardens,pollinator gardens, where they
put a few things of bigbluestem, and after about five
to ten years, that's all bigbluestem. Because historically,
(04:35):
we had large herbivores thatwould roam across our prairies,
and they would their their majorpart of their diet, like the
bison, was grasses.
I think I've read inpublications of the past that
90% of a bison's diet, they'retargeting the grass species. So
with these grasses being suchbullies, such such aggressive,
(04:58):
that knocks them back, thatallows the wildflowers to then
take hold, and kind of reassertthemselves, and then the group
the grasses then kinda push themback out. It's just it's this
pendulum that swings in ourprairies over the thousands of
years that they were here, whichI do you have any bison in your
yard, Ken? I don't.
Ken Johnson (05:16):
As as much as a school as that would be. No. I
do not.
Chris Enroth (05:19):
No. Those fluffy cows.
Ken Johnson (05:20):
Best best I can do as a dog.
Chris Enroth (05:23):
Yes. You do have a fluffy dog, though. So
Ken Johnson (05:29):
You know, have to act as your own bison, if you
want if you want some of thatstuff.
Chris Enroth (05:34):
That is very true. Yeah. So you're gonna have to
con and, actually, I know a lotof folks that will they they are
farmers. They have CRP. Theyhave some of that big blue stem
because I think way back whenNRCS used to say, like, hey.
You are required to have bigbluestem or switchgrass or
something in here. And so nowthey have to actively control
those grasses, you know, ifthey're really trying to enhance
(05:57):
their habitat projects. And sothat the grasses just don't
completely take over and there'sno wildflowers.
Ken Johnson (06:05):
Yes. Enough of the bad. Let's talk about some of
that.
Chris Enroth (06:09):
Yeah. I'll yeah. Let's talk about these good
things. So, I guess let's let'sgo back to where we began, Ken,
habitat and nesting. So describeto me what you would mean by
insects utilizing our prairiegrasses as, like, nesting
habitat?
Ken Johnson (06:31):
Yes. There's kinda two examples. I'm sure there's
more that I can think of. Butbumblebees, I often hear about
not well, I mean, not often, butfrequently hear about them
nesting, at the base of bunchgrasses. So bumblebees typically
are nesting in the ground.
A lot of times, like, abandonedrodent burrows, some kind of
hole or depression in theground. But they all will also
utilize, like, the basis ofbunch grasses. They'll build
(06:54):
their nest there. And, again,these are these are social bees.
So you've got a a queen, that'sbuilding this nest, laying the
eggs, foraging.
Once the offspring are born, herdaughters, they will then take
over that and the queen just islaying eggs. But they're annual.
So this is a one year thing.It's not like honeybees, which
will go on for years and yearsand years. It's an annual thing.
(07:15):
So then in the fall, they'llsend out, new reproductive,
individuals, males and andfemales. They'll mate. The
queens will overwinter, and thatcolony will die off. But often
hear about them at the basis ofbunch grasses, hear about them
in compost piles, stuff likethat. So the you're if you're
incorporating these these nativebunch grasses, there there's a
(07:35):
potential that that could behabitat, for bumblebees.
Another one I think peopleprobably don't think about are
some of the grass carryingwasps. So if you're providing if
you have, like, the wood nestingbox or you're putting out straws
or reeds for native bee species,those cavity nesting bees,
leafcutter bees, mason bees,things like that. If you have
some of those holes that arestuffed full of grass, that is a
(07:58):
a native wasp several nativeseveral different native wasp
species, will utilize those.What they're doing is they're
going out and catching crickets,grasshoppers, things like that,
and they will lay their eggs on.They'll they'll sting them.
They'll paralyze them. Thatkeeps them alive. We'll take
those back to those, to theirnest. They'll lay their egg on
(08:21):
it. That larvae will eat it, andthey'll kinda divide their their
brood cells with that grass.
If you got a bunch of grasssticking out of some kind of
tube or some kind of hole, morethan likely that's one of the
grass carrying wasps, doingthat. I think tree crickets are
kind of the one of the main,food sources for those. So those
aren't usually getting intolevels where you have to be
(08:41):
concerned about them, but theyare helping to manage those,
populations of those insects.And these are solitary, so
you're not gonna have to worryabout them stinging you unless
you grab them or step on them.Like, they're not gonna defend
their nest like a a yellowjacket or some other social wasp
would.
Chris Enroth (09:00):
If there's something I love, it is,
uncovering some type of a leafcutting, grass carrying, some
some type of insect that isusing vegetation to line their
nest with. The the that is soneat. I I did come across I
think it was a leafcutter beethat was utilizing, leaves, and
(09:22):
she was packing this into ahollow stem. Oh, was it
elderberry? I I'm not it it wassome some cane forming shrub, in
the woods behind my house, and Iwas just moving things around
and the stem just snapped everso, like, very easily.
And I noticed it was just packedfull of leaves and frass. I
(09:45):
think it looked like frass. Youknow, it's powder Mhmm. Looking
things. And see if I can dig upa picture to send you, Ken, to
throw in here of that thatleafcutter bee, and that that
hollow stem.
It was it was very neat. I knowI have pictures. The question
is, can I find these pictures?
Ken Johnson (10:05):
Yeah. Yeah. For, like, the grass carrying wasp,
I've you read about them and,like, the window tracks or
sliding door tracks. You'll findthem a lot. I've got a picture
of an adult feeding on, mintthat I can throw in here.
I don't have any of themactually carrying grass. And, I
mean, they'll probably I'dassume they probably use just
turf grass too. But, you know,they they've evolved with our
(10:27):
native grasses, so you might aswell provide that. And the the
females will just go clip somegrass, carry it back to the
nest. So, again, likely, ifgutter bees are not taken enough
to do any damage, to thoseplants.
Mhmm.
Chris Enroth (10:41):
So speaking of, you know, these wasp bees that
utilize the, interior of otherplants for for nesting. You have
some great articles. I'mthinking of your fall garden
cleanup and your spring gardencleanup articles about how
(11:04):
insects utilize our standingplant debris for overwintering
habitat. Now we talked about howbumblebees can utilize burrowing
underneath these bunch formingprairie grasses. You know,
they're they're able to findthese little little niches into
the in that fine root systemthat, these grasses have.
You know, it's a very, you know,the roots aren't very thick.
(11:26):
They're they're finer. They're,but they're more fibrous,
creating more of that sod layerright below the surface, I
think, more protective. And sobut, Ken, in terms of, like,
overwintering insectsoverwintering in in the grasses
themselves, Do you see anyindication that they are using
(11:48):
the above ground vegetation? Arethey, like, kind of bedding down
near the crown of the the grassplant?
Ken Johnson (11:55):
Yeah. It'll probably depend on on the
insects and how they'reoverwintering. So you've got
some that may overwinter aseggs, on on those plants
potentially or as larvae or ifyou're pupating and those may be
down in the ground or at thebase or tied, to that leaf,
debris. So we can get into thisa little bit bigger. Our grass
(12:16):
feeding caterpillars and stuffwould be examples of that.
They're overwintering more thanlikely in those plants they're
feeding on. You got things likebeetles and ground beetles and
stuff will overwinter, in ingrasses and plant material. And
then they'll go out in thespring and feed on what we would
consider pests, insects andslugs and things like that. So,
you know, having that habitatthat they can overwinter on,
(12:39):
like anything else, you havethat habitat, they're gonna
stick around because they've gotthey've got what they need.
They're not gonna have to goaround and and look for their
habitat.
They'll stick around in thatlandscape where they where
you're providing them, with whatthey need. I wouldn't be
surprised if you could findother other insects, you know,
if you've got could be adultbutterflies and some species
(13:01):
will overwinter as those. Youknow, bees and wasps, you know,
they have their reproductivesoverwintering some of the social
ones. I've usually seen themmore in, like, logs and stuff,
but I I assume if you've got athick enough layer of grass
stuff, I wouldn't be surprised,you know, if you could find them
there, as well as as long asit's somewhere that's gonna keep
(13:22):
them kinda protected and theylike it, they'll use it.
Chris Enroth (13:26):
Okay. So being March 11 right now, it's really
nice out. It's so tempting to goout and maybe cut down your, I
have, several bunches of nativegrasses. You know, you can cut
them down. I do sometimes burnmy grasses, but it's probably
too early, isn't it?
We we we really need to waituntil we see a bit more green,
(13:51):
you know, trees flushing outwith their, with their growth,
seeing our lawns green up atleast because, you know, a lot
of the insects, they are notbeing fooled necessarily by the
warmer temperatures.
Ken Johnson (14:06):
Yes. Yeah. And in in an ideal world, we would wait
until you know, you think aboutwhen you plant tomatoes. Yeah.
By then the soils have warmedup.
It's in the fifties. Everythingthat's gonna come out is
probably come out by then. Thatwould be a good time to clean
up, but we don't live in aperfect world. And, you know, if
it's your front yard, youprobably most people would wanna
(14:26):
clean that up a little earlier.So if you are cleaning up, you
know, you're cutting backgrasses, cleaning up other plant
material.
Instead of putting that out inthe lawn waste or shredding it
or doing disposing it howeveryou normally would, If you've
got an area, stick that in thebackyard in a corner, until it
warms up. So anything that is inthere, can then emerge, and and
(14:49):
then dispose of it. And as faras burning, you'd run into this
with prairie burns too.Typically, when you're burning
that stuff, you don't burn theentire area because anything
that is overwintering in thereis gonna get burned up. So
typically, you only do part ofit every year just so you are,
savings what some of that stuffthat is overwintering.
So yeah. Just don't go don't doit all at once, again, ideally.
(15:11):
But that's sometimes easier saidthan none.
Chris Enroth (15:15):
That's true. Very good points. Yeah. And and I
don't always burn every single,grass in my yard. Sometimes I
will alternate.
And and and when I do and I dotry to delay trimming grasses
back as late as possible. Youknow, I I will even see the
green growth coming up from thethe the crown of that grass
plant. I I will then, take,like, the the shears and just
(15:38):
cut them down. I know a lot offolks have said, well, that's
that stunts, that green growthat the base of the plant, I've
never encountered that. And Ihave multiple different species
of grasses that I've done it to.
They seem to respond just fine.And and by the time we get to
mid to late season, they'vealready they they form their
(16:00):
flower. They they've begun toform their seed head, and it's
just like just like normal. SoI've I've it maybe it takes a
little bit longer for them toreach that that higher, the it's
it's mature height for the year,but, I have not yet stunted or
shortened my grasses by burningthem later than normal. And
(16:21):
sometimes I do it on purposebecause I'm trying to rain them
back.
Ken Johnson (16:24):
Yeah. I mean, I'll I'll probably do some cleanup
this weekend. We've got a or orhell strip or boulevard,
whatever you wanna call it, areabetween the sidewalk and the
road. We planted all nativeplants. But the neighbors across
the street have several oaktrees, so all those leaves get
trapped in there.
So we've got areas where we'veprobably got leaves six, seven
inches deep. So I'm gonna I needto rake some of that out because
(16:46):
it's gonna smother, the plantmaterial under there. So I'll
rake that out and probably justrake it into the lawn, and let
it sit and and probably andweigh back on the cutting back
and stuff. But but I will dosome we'll do a little bit of
cleanup just on that smotheringstuff.
Chris Enroth (17:04):
Well well, Ken, this show is is turning into a
spring cleanup episode here. Iguess I guess we need to get
back on track. Some of the theother ways that our native
grasses can support our our,pollinators, our insects, that
that they have coevolved withover the eons, and and the other
way is is as food. Now when wewere looking into this, you had
(17:33):
uncovered a pretty amazingtreasure trove of information
from University of Minnesota,about some of the ways that our
native grasses can contribute tokind of that insect ecosystem.
And one of those was as a larvalfood source, for a lot of our
caterpillars.
And I I noted, in this,Minnesota link that you had
(17:55):
shared that they they call out acouple specific, native plant
species. One of them being,prairie dropseed, another one
being, I think, blue grammygrass. These grasses, they they
note that, you know, even thoughthey might not be visited as
frequently by pollinators, theirflowers, these grasses are still
(18:16):
supporting pollinatorpopulations by larval food
sources. And so, like, withprairie dropsy, there are
several skippers that they spendtheir immature part of their
life cycle, their caterpillar'slife cycle stage on prairie drop
seed. And they're, you know, alot of these skippers, they're
very small caterpillars even.
(18:36):
You may never see them. Theyfeed towards the base or the
crown of that grass plant, Andthen that's how they spend their
their caterpillar life. They go.They pupate into an adult, moth
or butterfly, and then they willfeed on, nectar and pollen
resources. So it looks likewith, like, prairie drop seed,
(18:59):
this is what they've documented.
They know that there are atleast six native skipper
butterflies that feed on our,prairie drop seed, and this is
just kind of based onobservation. They say that
there's probably more, but thisis what they've been able to
study and identify. They knowthat with blue grammographs that
(19:19):
there is at least 13 butterflyand moth species that feed on
them, including, like, otherskippers, Blake's tiger moth,
the there there are skippershere I've never heard of, the
unca skipper, leonard skipper,Mead's wood nymph, but but they
(19:39):
list them all out. And the and Ithink it's a lot of this larval
feeding we we never really thinkabout. I mean, it happens to our
oak trees.
It happens to our our forbplants. It also happens to our
grasses that that they are alsosupporting many of our native
pollinators. So so yeah. Therethere you have it. Native grass
(20:04):
is larval food
Ken Johnson (20:05):
source. I mean, yeah, I'm as guilty as anybody.
We we focus on, you know,monarchs, and they want the milk
the after milkweed. We talkabout oaks because there's
hundreds of different speciesthat rely on those. The flowers,
yeah, we forget about thegrasses and probably because
these these butterflies, andmoths that are feeding on them
are not the big charismatic onesthat that we notice or really
(20:26):
care about is probably not theright term, but that's what I'm
gonna use.
And then we just don't notice.So, and we've talked about this
caterpillars of Eastern NorthAmerica. So it lists a couple of
the we talked about theskippers, subfamily Hesperianae,
which is the grass skipper. Soall the we'll say I'll probably
(20:48):
get myself in trouble becausethere's probably one exception.
But all these feed on grasses,as as a larval food source like
least skipper, bluegrass, ricecut grass, peck skipper,
barnyard grass, rice cut grass,which I'm not sure what rice cut
grass is.
But, I mean, this doesn't listall of them. And and the
(21:11):
skippers people have probablyseen, like, the silver spotted
skipper, before. That's a alarger skipper species that you
see flying around. It will feedon, let's see, it was false
indigo, locust, legumes, andstuff. That's probably one
people have seen before.
(21:31):
And then the the nymphs and thethe satyrs, Saturnian e. So
these are kinda brown. They haveeye spots, but a little more
they're kinda drab butterflies.So, again, stuff we overlook.
But there are numerous speciesthat rely, on these on these
native grasses as as a foodsource.
So, again, just the more diversethe more diversity of plants you
(21:54):
have, the more diverse insectpopulation you're gonna have in
your landscape.
Chris Enroth (21:59):
Yes. Provide larval food sources, provide
nectar food sources. And and nowI feel better about
incorporating more nativegrasses. I already have a lot.
But, now I'm like, well, maybe II I could go buy some more.
Ken Johnson (22:18):
And and sedges too, which aren't grasses, but, so
that that book we mentioned,it's gardening with native
grasses in cold climates and aGuide to the Butterflies They
Support. So this is from, likeyou mentioned, University of
Minnesota, and this is availablefor free on Apple Books. So I
know if you've got a iPhone oriPad, you can get it. We're not
(22:39):
quite sure if you have Android,if you're if you can access that
or not.
Chris Enroth (22:44):
I have Android, but my phone is so old. It's,
not loading for me. So, I'llhave to get back to you on that
one on Android.
Ken Johnson (22:55):
Seth. And we can, we're gonna go to link in the
show notes onto this. So if youare a non iPhone user or non
Apple user, let us know if youcan access it or not. Or and if
you can't, hopefully, you have afriend that that does have an I
an Apple product that you can'taccess it with.
Chris Enroth (23:13):
Yes. Find someone you can borrow their their
iPhone or iPad.
Ken Johnson (23:18):
And, another one for food that, you know, I've
observed, And, admittedly, didnot do an exhaustive literature
review for this, but didn'treally come across anything, in
literature is is bees feedingon, the pollen, of native grass.
So I've I've seen this in my ownlandscape. I don't think I've
(23:39):
taken any pictures of it,because usually the bees are
really small. But and again, wewere talking beforehand. You
know, we've both seen it onsweet corn, which obviously
isn't a native grass, but it isa grass There's monocot that's,
you know, it's related.
So I have seen it there, but Ihave seen it on on our our side
(24:00):
oats grandma. And when that'sflowering, I have seen small
bees and stuff visiting that. Somaybe not a major food source
for them, but still, it is stilla would be a pollen resource
for, bees.
Chris Enroth (24:15):
Yeah. I I think it's it's probably an area where
we need to do more study onthat, But I have heard
entomologists say that evenplants that are wind pollinated,
they will frequently findpollinators visiting those those
flowers, especially in pollenscarce environments. Like, a lot
of our kind of suburb suburbanor urban, environments, you
(24:38):
know, they might, you might finda lot of insects feeding on
shade tree pollen, even thoughmany of our shade trees, they're
wind pollinated species. I I satin on a session. It was led by
Morton Arboretum, entomologistwhere they were talking about
(24:58):
pollinators that visit flowersof ash trees.
And it was very interesting,very eye opening because you
think of some of those trees,ash, you know, maple, things
like that where they are youknow, that pollen is moved by
the wind. But they said in thesepollen depleted environments,
very often insects are going tolook towards these wind
pollinated plants. And when Ihave encountered, I've I've
(25:22):
watched bumblebees collectingpollen from, the tassels of
sweet corn, you know, I I recalllooking around me, and it's just
turf grass and, you know,thousands of acres of field
corn. Mhmm. There's not muchelse around for them.
So it it would make sense thatthese bumblebees are scavenging
(25:45):
pollen where they can whereverthey can find it.
Ken Johnson (25:48):
Yeah. So if you need another reason, there's
another one for you. Mhmm.
Chris Enroth (25:53):
So I I also kind of I had the this question
about, you know, insects goingafter pollen on grasses. So I
did reach out to AngelaMorehouse. Now, Angela, she is a
biologist with the IllinoisNature Preserves Commission. So
she she's she is an excellentbotanist. She is a fantastic,
(26:17):
entomologist as well.
Although she's she she'llreadily admit she was never
trained in entomology. But whenyou're out in the Prairie
botanizing all day long, youbecome, you know, a you you you
absorb that that entomologyexpertise, just because there's
there's insects everywhere in ahealthy prairie. So I did reach
out to her, and I asked herabout pollinators collecting,
(26:41):
pollen from native grasses. SoI'll just read what she said.
She said, it is not common butinsects will, on rare occasions,
feed or collect, grass pollen.
And then she actually sent a afew images that she gave us
permission to use on this show.So let me I'll share this screen
right here so Ken can see whatI'm seeing. So she, attached a a
(27:06):
few photos. This first one is, alacio glossum sweat bee. I don't
know if I said that right, Ken.
Lassieoglossum, and it iscollecting pollen from eastern
grama grass. So here it is, a areally good close-up of that
sweat bee collecting pollen offof this grammographs, or
(27:29):
grammographs. Sorry. And, again,another image of that. And then
she sent, another picture.
These are sedge sitter flies,and they are on, on a sedge
(27:52):
here, and and you can just seethey're all just hanging out,
pulling, pulling off of theseflowers. And I guess it's just
true to their name. They'resitting on that sedge hanging
out there. And so she's she'salways out there taking
pictures. She knows that there'sbee photographers that have
documented this, but she's notaware of very many, like,
(28:16):
scientific publications thathave have documented, like,
pollinator visits to nativegrass flowers.
So it's really pretty pictures.Encourage everyone this year,
get out there. Sit in a, like, aprairie grassland area, and take
a close look at those flowersall around you. I bet you'll
(28:39):
find a lot of insects out there.
Ken Johnson (28:42):
Sounds like if anybody's looking for a master's
or PhD project, there you go.
Chris Enroth (28:48):
Yeah. Just gotta find that funding, and then
you'll you'll be off for theraces. Alright. Well, Ken, you
know, we we we kinda coveredthis already, but maybe it
bears, maybe hashing over itagain. You know, when we talked
about our native grasses to use,what exactly are are we
(29:11):
referring to?
You know, we can we said folksmaybe steer away from those tall
grass prairie species like bigbluestem, really trying to look
more towards those short grassprairie species, which are not
as aggressive. And, you know,again, the the the resources for
Minnesota, just the ones that Ishared, you know, it definitely
(29:32):
showed that the the gammagrasses, the the shorter ones,
the side oats, grama grass, andthen our prairie dropseed, our
little bluestem, they are allexcellent larval food sources.
And, you know, I I would say theprairie dropseed and the little
bluestem, and I would even say,some of that that, that blue
(29:56):
gramma grass, I would say isgoing to be very available in
local nurseries. If not as astraight species, you can
probably definitely find them asa cultivar. I know terra as a
prairie drop seed cultivar is ispopular.
Terra is a bit smaller, a bitmore compact that could fit
better into a smaller landscape.And this is probably opening a
(30:20):
can of worms with nativars. Wellso I I can attest that Tara is a
wild selection. It was selectedfrom the prairie. You know,
there was no extensive breedingthat went into this.
It was just someone noticed ashorter, more diminutive prairie
drop seed. There's another onecalled carousel that is a little
(30:43):
blue stem that is also a wildselection. Again, no specific
breeding went into this. It wasactually selected down near,
Rushville, Illinois, out of a anursery out of there. So and
it's now kind of more it's it'ssold world worldwide.
So it's a carousel, little bluestem, terra, prairie, job seed.
(31:06):
You know, you could get yournativars. You could get your
straight species. That, dearlisteners, viewers, is up to
you.
Ken Johnson (31:15):
Something is better than nothing. We can
Chris Enroth (31:18):
There you go. I like that. Yes.
Ken Johnson (31:21):
You know? And for the, the book we mentioned,
what's the title now? Let melook. Yearning with native
grasses and cool climates. Soone kind of cool thing that they
do in this, is they list kind ofthe complete life cycle.
They've got they call itcomplete life cycle tables. They
have a grass plus a flower.We'll we'll help you with kind
(31:43):
of this this lepidoptera orbutterfly or moth. Just taking
the the larval food source,which would be the grass, then a
flowering plant that they'recommonly found on either in the
literature or in field guidesand stuff. So as just as an
example, something like let'sfind one that people would
actually wanna grow.
(32:04):
Side oats, grandma, andpenstemon species, which would
be hilltop little skipper. Now Idon't know if that's I don't
know if that's one we have inIllinois, but they they have it
in Minnesota. So they've gottwenty, thirty some of these
different combinations. So alittle little blue stem and,
purple cone flower. It'd beDakota skipper, Argo skipper,
(32:30):
Poashike skipperling, oatskipper, auto, auto, however you
say that.
So it's these differentcombinations that that would
potentially work and stuff. So
Chris Enroth (32:44):
I love that. That's I I remember being out in
the Prairie out in, Kansas inthe Flint Hills Of Kansas,
having a biologist talk abouthow the native grasses and the
forbs, how they they they growin and amongst each other, how
they support each other, youknow, from a structural
standpoint. You know, thegrasses keep the wildflowers
(33:06):
propped up. You know, theherbivores come through where
they eat the grasses. It's it isa whole community.
Now, Ken, you're talking aboutthese pairings of grasses and
forbs and wildflowers. Oh, thisit gets deeper and deeper the
more you learn. This is wild.
Ken Johnson (33:23):
Yeah. Well, and like you mentioned with the the
support, I think that's onething we overlook, a lot in when
we're doing our our prairieplantings is we want the the
flower. We want the forbes.We're not getting the grass of
what you're offering atstructural support. I think,
Erin Garrett and her one of hergrasses at a glance blog kinda
wrote about this where, youknow, like like you said, those
(33:45):
grasses are supporting thesewildflowers.
They're not flopping over. Sowhich I think is a common
complaint a lot of people haveis they flop, because they're
they're typically grown muchmore densely than we would in a
residential landscape, andthey've got these support nurse
plants, whatever you wanna callthem, holding them up. And
(34:06):
you've got that competition too,so that kinda keeps things in
check, getting keeps them fromgetting too too big as well
because you do have thatcompetition between plants.
Chris Enroth (34:17):
And and so this could then play into how, you
know, in a residential setting,you could design a garden bed to
support insects and pollinatorsby having your, let's say,
prairie drop seed, as more of anedging type plant. You could
(34:38):
then do a mass planting of, youknow, what what what have you,
penstemon. You heck. You couldeven do maybe even a dwarf Joe
Pye weed. Those grasses wouldhelp support, those taller
flowering plants, from that thatwould allow them to be more
upright, more visible maybe fromfrom the sidewalk or the road,
(35:00):
give you good curve appeal.
And then having an edging ofgrasses, you know, in in, like,
a line, that also indicates thatyou did this on purpose. It is a
intention. I think that'sanother valuable thing when
we're trying to incorporate morenative plants into our
landscapes. Now I was justtalking to someone the other
(35:23):
day, you know, what, you know,what does this mean by native
plants?
Ken Johnson (35:28):
I'm
Chris Enroth (35:28):
like, well, they're they're really wild
plants. They haven't necessarilybeen cultivated for, you know,
generations and generations in anursery to try to be the perfect
little plant that stays in itsspot, that that is the the same
height no matter what, the samewidth no matter what. These are
(35:49):
wild plants. Their genetics varyfrom plant to plant. So your
little bluestem might be alittle bit taller on one side
than it is over here.
I mean, there's soil conditionsand sunlight, things like that
that play a factor, but alsojust the genetics. They're not
clones of each other. They'rewild. They go where they want.
And, sometimes a native plantingcan look a bit unruly.
(36:11):
So if we give this a bit more ofa a design, eye of
intentionality where we'reedging plants, we're we're
structuring them from, like,short up to tall. That, I think,
will allow these to be a bitmore accepted by a lot more, you
(36:32):
know, groups such as cities,HOAs, you know, your your grumpy
neighbor, you know, you name it.Just it it it can probably be
more acceptable if we weapproach this, you know, by by
trying to marry our humanaesthetics with those needs of
the native plants and then howwe can contribute, you know, to
(36:54):
kind of a larger ecological,framework towards our yards.
Ken Johnson (37:01):
And even leaving a a one more with of turf that's
mowed around there makes it lookintentional too. So having some
mowed turf around it. Forwhatever reason, you know,
people associate that with thatLike it.
Chris Enroth (37:19):
Yeah. Yes. And if we go back to fire, sometimes
these things do catch on firewhether, on purpose or accident.
And having a a mode strip aroundthem is act is a decent
firebreak strategy too. So, Iknow we don't necessarily have
to worry as much about wildfiresin Illinois, but it does happen.
(37:42):
There's actually a a CRPcontrolled burn that occurred,
in Macomb just the other daythat got out of hand and and
crept onto a neighboring parcelswoodland. So, you know, things
happen. I I actually have my myparents' property. It caught on
fire when the neighbor kid whowas, sneaking a cigarette,
(38:06):
tossed his cigarette butt intothe leaves in the ditch, and
then it caught our cow pastureon fire. So, I mean, these
things happen.
So having knowing that you'regoing to be creating these
native plant, gardens that aregoing to be have a lot of debris
that will need to be managed,and it's flammable. So, just be
mindful of that. Having edging,having structures, rock,
(38:30):
benches, signage, all of thatstuff, I think, is is helpful in
the long term management,maintenance, and acceptance of
these gardens.
Ken Johnson (38:41):
Have nothing to add. Put that perfectly.
Chris Enroth (38:44):
Case closed.
Ken Johnson (38:47):
We're done. Alright.
Chris Enroth (38:49):
Well, alright. Let me hop off this, soapbox for a
second. I got way up there.Well, that was a lot of great
information about how our nativegrasses can help support our
native insects, including ourpollinators, even if we don't
necessarily think of nativegrasses as pollinator food. They
(39:11):
are and they can be.
Well, the Good Growing Podcastis a production of University of
Illinois Extension edited thisweek by Ken Johnson. Ken, thank
you so much for both editing andhanging out with me today,
chatting about the benefits ofnative grasses to our native
insect friends.
Ken Johnson (39:30):
Yes. Thank you. And, yeah, like I said earlier,
go out and study those grasses.See what's out there. You'll be
surprised.
Chris Enroth (39:37):
Take pictures.
Ken Johnson (39:39):
Yeah. And let's do this again next week.
Chris Enroth (39:43):
Oh, we shall do this again next week. We have
got some soil test reports toreport back to you. So we've
done some soil testing on someof the places where we garden,
and we're gonna go over thoseresults with everyone next week.
Well, listeners, thank you fordoing what you do best, and that
is listening. Or if you'rewatching us on YouTube watching,
(40:05):
And as always, keep on growing.
Alright. Well, that was a lot ofgreat information about how our
native glasses glasses. Glasses.My my native glasses. Let me
(40:27):
start over.
We just have man, we haven'tdone we haven't acknowledged the
fact that we we got past 200episodes and completely just
just didn't even realize it.
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