Ep. 214 Backyard grapes: From vine to wine, juice, or snack | #GoodGrowing - Good Growing

Episode Transcript
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Chris Enroth (00:04):
Welcome to the Good Growing Podcast. I am Chris
Enroth, horticulture educatorwith University of Illinois
Extension coming at you fromMacomb, Illinois, and we have
got a great show for you today.We are going to be talking about
growing the grapes in thebackyard. Oh, I love some fresh
table grapes. But you know I'mnot doing this by myself.

(00:25):
I am joined as always everysingle week by horticulture
educator Ken Johnson inJacksonville. Hey, Ken.

Ken Johnson (00:31):
Hello, Chris. Do you prefer table, raisins, or
liquid grapes? I have kind ofliquid grape.

I would say fermented liquid grapes. That
I'm not really, like, I I'm notvery good at tasting wine. I
would say I can't distinguishall the different flavors or
anything, but I I do often knowthe difference between, like,
this is good wine versus this isnot good wine. That's kind of my

(01:00):
my balance of wine and things.So yes.
How about you, Ken? Do you liketable grapes? Do you like grape
juice, raisins, fermentedgrapes?

Table grapes aren't bad. I don't like raisins. Grape
juice is good. Fermented grapes,if it tastes like grape juice,
that's good. If it doesn't tastelike grape juice, that's not
good.
So I don't I don't like drywine.

Oh, sometimes I love dry wine. Other times, I
don't. It just depends on theday, I suppose. And, you know,
raisins, are are they getting abad rap these days? Because I
grew up eating lots of raisins.
Like, that was, like, a commonsnack for school, for for, like,
all kinds of activities. I don'tknow if my kids know what a
raisin tastes like anymore. I'vetried to feed them raisins, and

(01:47):
they look at it. They're like,what is this?

Yeah. I'm trying to think. We don't I yeah. We
always just kids had raisins inthe house, but I don't know if
care kids have eaten raisins,yeah, we don't Yeah. Like, a
container full of them sittingaround.

Mhmm. Well, my wife is a she's a dental
hygienist, and she said, boy,that's not good for your teeth.
And so they've always stayed outof the pantry for the most part,
even though I I still like them.I'll still eat them if I have
them.

There you go. Well,

kids aside, I think a lot of folks you know,
we do every once a week. We getquestions about, you know, can I
grow my own grapes? And frankly,Ken, that question scares me.
There's so much to know when itcomes to grape growing. So we
have a special guest with ustoday to cover growing our own

(02:40):
backyard grapes.
So we have doctor ElizabethWally in Madison County,
Illinois. So that is kind of theMetro East to St. Louis area. So
Elizabeth, welcome to the show.

Elizabeth Wahle (02:50):
Well, gentlemen, it's a pleasure to be
here today.

Well, we are happy to have you. And I should add,
Elizabeth, you are a you're acommercial ag specialist, with
our commercial ag team. So youdeal a lot with, those specialty
crops that are grown for sale ina commercial sense. Correct?

That's correct. But by extension, I know how to
grow them at home too.

Mhmm. So we are really happy to have you here.
Listeners, viewers, Elizabeth isan absolute wealth of knowledge.
Everything from those commercialspecialty crops to the backyard
garden, from ornamentals,vegetable gardens. So, we're
happy to have you to dive intomaybe one of the topics that I
am most afraid of here, which isgrapes.

(03:38):
Like I said, there's just a lotto know.

Oh, start off. So we got a whole list of questions
here. I'm gonna start off withthose. So I guess first question
is, what are some things if ifsomebody wants to grow grapes,
what are some things we shouldconsider before we put them in
the ground or even buy them?

Well, you know, I'm gonna give an answer that
I'm not really good at doingmyself when, you know, standing
in a nursery looking at a plant.But, you know, if I'm putting on
my extension here, I would sayfor grapes, there's quite a bit
of difference in diseasesusceptibility. And so, you
know, when you're buying grapes,you really should take the time

(04:19):
to look over, you know, theevaluation data on which ones
are highly susceptible. Because,you know, a lot of homeowners,
you know, unlike commercialgrowers, maybe don't have the
expertise or, the willingness toregularly, you know, apply
pesticides to control disease.And so I'm gonna say with
grapes, probably one of thefirst things is make sure that

(04:42):
you are getting something thatreduces the amount of commitment
you have with that particularcrop in terms of pest control.

That kinda reminds me, like, tree fruit in a way.
People think they can put thatin their backyard and just grow
a tree fruit. But grape soundslike a very similar thing where,
you know, you have to you have acommitment here for keeping
because things wanna eat theirgrapes and want to infect your
grapes.

Yeah. It's you know, anyone that's hung around
with me for a long time says,you know, if we like to eat it,
there usually is a lot of otherthings that like to eat it too,
and and that's definitely thecase with grapes. We have some
core diseases. Fortunately,insect pests are not the number
one concern. It really isdisease.

(05:27):
And then when we get into thefruit being there, then we have
to worry about all the wildlifethat wanna steal your crop.
Mhmm. Start now. Make a gooddecision on what cultivars
you're growing.

Well, I guess speaking in in line of those
cultivars, I always get excitedwhen I visit a vineyard. I'm
like, oh, I could do this. Like,it makes me, like, want to do
this. You know, they might letyou taste some grapes. They
might have some wine orsomething or grape juice that
they've made, and it makes meexcited to do it.
But I would be starting fromscratch. I would be a beginner.

(06:01):
So in terms of, like, cultivars,varieties, is there anything
that is well suited for abeginner? Or, like, for most of
us, we're not gonna have acres.We're gonna be doing this
against a fence probably in abackyard.

No. I, you know, I grow grapes, myself, and
I just have four vines. That'sall I have. It's it's enough.
You know, I don't have acres.
And I grow, a Concord typebecause I absolutely love, you
know, Concord grape. Like, mostof us, we grew up with, you
know, Welch's cooperative withConcord grape being the baseline
for, you know, juices and jelly.So a lot of Americans have a

(06:39):
cultivated palate for ourAmerican grapes that have that
foxiness or that muskiness, youknow, a little bit of a tang to
it that we don't get withEuropean grapes. And, you know,
when I started, I really lookedat, you know, what do I want?
You know, do I want a tablegrape?
Do I want something that doesn'thave seeds? Do I just wanna
harvest an entire cluster? Youknow? And it only serves that

(07:02):
one purpose. You know?
So you have that group of grapesthat you could select from and
looking for disease, you know,resistance. But I really wanted
something that had morefunctionality. There are a
number of grapes that you canselect, and, I grow one called
Sunbelt, and it's a moresouthern adapted concord type.

(07:25):
But it can be used for, youknow, jams and jellies and
juice, and you can make wine outof it. So and it's fresh eating.
The only drawback for fresheating is it has seeds in it.
But because of itsfunctionality, that's what I
selected. And it's it's not, themost disease susceptible, but

(07:46):
it's not the best, also. Butit's within my range of what I'm
willing to commit with thosegrapes. And so that's kinda, you
know, how I look at it.
You know, how much commitmentare you gonna have with? So if
you go in knowing how muchyou're gonna, you know, control
and really what you wanna usefor them, I think that really
kinda helps you out as abeginner. You know, if you just

(08:08):
want table grapes, that kindareally reduces down your choices
to what is out there thatdoesn't have seeds in it. That
kinda limits your list, and thenyou can just start seeing, well,
which one has the most, youknow, the best flavor and the
best disease, you know, profile,on there. And that that's kind
of an easy start.

So a lot of people I think this is a trend in in
the horticultural trade is we'regetting more towards smaller
plants, container type plants.Are there any grapes that would
do well in a container settingif you didn't have a lot of
space to grow them?

Well, you know, on on just about anything, you
can, you know, get somethingthat doesn't have, you know, as
much vigor and is is not as bigof a vine. And that's some of
the ratings that go with grapes,and so you'd wanna look for one,
you know, that was a lessvigorous vine that's not gonna
be a monster for you to dealwith. I will remind everyone

(09:07):
that when you're in a container,no matter what, it doesn't stay
in that soil or that, you know,the soil in the pot forever. So
you always have to think about,you know, how are you going to
get it out of the pot and changethat soil. So one of the things
that I always say when we'retalking about food crops that we
know, you know, are perennial innature, don't get a pot that has

(09:30):
one of those, you know, reducedneck sizes where it goes in.
You really want that straightout, so that when you lift the
plant up and and get the soiloff, you can, you know, get it
out easily and put it back in.I've been stupid in my life. I I
think as horticulturists, we canprobably all admit that what

(09:52):
makes us good at our job iswe've done every dumb thing that
could possibly be done. And Ihave done that. I have put pots
in those beautiful, you know,vase shape that has the narrow
and then you can't get it out,and you end up having to break
the pot, you know, to get theplant out of it.
So that's my one comment isalways keep in mind that, you

(10:14):
know, we usually say every twoyears, you know, change the
soil. You're probably not gonnawanna do it quite that often.
But when you fertilize, makesure that you water very
thoroughly to wash, you know,the salts through the soil as
much as possible. So, thecontainer you select and plan on

(10:36):
where you're gonna place it sothat it can climb because it is
a true vine. It's gonna have tohave some some something.
So whether you put it close tosomething for it to grab onto or
whether you have a pot largeenough that can handle the
weight of a trellis that you putdown in it, it's gonna have to
have something to climb on.

I know it'll it'll bury on on the cultivar and
stuff, but how big would a, Iguess, a typical grape plant
get? Just so people have anidea.

Well, if I you know, we're just putting a
standard one, I would say thatthey're probably, oh, maintained
about five to six feet tall andprobably cordons four feet
either direction. So eight footwide, five foot tall. And so,
you know, if you were able toget a pot because grapes are

(11:28):
actually rather deep rooted, soyou're gonna have a restricted
root system. So I would imaginethat you might not be able to
get it as large in a container,because of that restricted root
size space, on there. But,again, you know, you really have
to think about, the weight ofthe plant when it has a crop on

(11:49):
it, for tipping over once it's,you know, in fruit.
So it it's obviously going tohave to be attached to
something, to stabilize it ifyou've got it in a container.

So we're focusing on Illinois, and we're just
before we started recording, wewere, like, going back and forth
reminding each other what zoneswe were all in. And I was like,
oh, really? I'm in zone six b ora? Like, oh my. That like,
everything's changed a littlebit.
But for for the most part, I Iknow there might be some folks
who they might travel to Europeand they see a particular type

(12:22):
of grape. They wanna, you know,grow something like that over
here, but European grapes aren'treally necessarily hardy in our
part of the world, are they?Like like, is climate a a big
deal when selecting thesegrapes?

It is. You know, I when we look at grapes,
we we have I'm gonna start withtwo big groups. So we have the
American grapes that are veryadapted to our climate, and we
have some American grapes thatare southern grapes. But
European grapes are aredefinitely a more Mediterranean
climate and not adapted to ourextreme winter. So it's not our

(12:59):
our spring, summer, and fall.
It's low winter temperatures.And so most of what we call
vinifera, so Vitis vinifera, orthe European Asian grapes, are
not reliably hardy here. Now wehave something like, Cabernet
Franc, which we can grow in thefar southern part of the state.

(13:20):
So there are a couple ofvarieties that what we call
slightly hardy, but most of themI would rate as tender. And so
that probably is, you know, oneof the, mistakes, growers make
is, you know, they'll gosomeplace like California.
They'll go up to the FingerLakes or the Great Lakes, you
know, where they have thosemoderated climates, you know,

(13:43):
where they can grow those typesof grapes. And then they bring
them back home and plant them,and the first winter kills them,
you know, to the ground, andthey lose them. And one of the
things with, you know, viniferagrapes, is they're all grafted.
Our European grapes aresusceptible to the American
phylloxera, which is an insectpest, that kills them. And so

(14:07):
all vinifera grape worldwide,actually, are grafted on to
American grape rootstock toprotect them from the root phase
of phylloxera.
And so, you know, a lot ofpeople, you know, they'll plant
their vinifera grape. It'll bekilled to the ground, and what
comes back up is not what theyplanted. It is the rootstock.
And that's why it comes backbecause it is adapted to our

(14:29):
climate, and they end up with,you know, a rootstock type of
grape.

So if climate, you know, it plays a big role, I
also think about soil. You know,it's Southern Illinois. You
know, climate and soil, I think,probably play a big role. And I
went to school down inCarbondale, you know, Southern
Illinois, rolling hills. But redclay, like heavy clay soil, how
how big of a a role does, like,soil or topography play in grape

(14:59):
growing?

Well, I I usually relate that it is air
drainage that is very important,you know, for spring freezes and
so forth because there's quite abit of difference in
temperature. You know, whenwe're on a commercial setting, I
can easily say, you know, ifyou're looking for a site, you
need, you know, rollingtopography. Well, if I come to

(15:21):
my home, it's flat. You know?We're talking to homeowners.
A lot of times, that doesn'teven come up as an issue because
there's no choice. It's like,where's the best site on my
property to plant a grape? Andso, you know, when you're
looking at the best place onyour property when you're not
looking at planting acreage,full sun is is number one. A

(15:47):
well draining soil, and I don'tmean sharp drainage, just that
they don't like to have wetfeet. And so, you know, I have
grapes growing on fairly heavyclay, but it is not a wet site.
It doesn't sit in water, so itdoes well. So, a well draining
site. Deeper soils are betterthan shallow. You know, we have

(16:08):
some places in the state thathave, you know, like, hard clay
pans or fragipans, that have arestrictive zone, and the grapes
don't grow as well if you can'tget the roots through it, but a
deeper soil. But I'm gonna sayfull sun and well drained, not
wet feet, Like most fruit,they're very similar to most

(16:28):
fruit crops that what they like.

Alright. So if we've got our type of grape that
we want, table, wine, what haveyou, we've got we've picked out
our disease resistant cultivar,hopefully. We've got our
location, full sun, welldraining. When is the best time
of year to go plant our grapeplants?

You know, grapes are very much like all
plants. You can plant them anytime of the year as long as
you're providing goodconditions, except for probably
when the ground is frozen.That's kinda rough. But having
said that, you know, it's alwaysbest to plant most plants in the

(17:11):
early spring. And this isbecause temperatures are still
moderate, and they're startingto warm, and there's usually
sufficient moisture, And thepest pressure has not, you know,
build up strongly, at thatpoint, and it kinda gives you a
running chance.
The second time to plant wouldbe in the fall again as
temperatures are starting to getcooler at night. The plant's not

(17:34):
under as much stress. If youmiss those windows, then you
always have to think, is thisplant under more stress? So
instead of planting, you know,you know, in early April or
sometime during April, and Idon't go buy my plant, you know,

(17:55):
until June 15, what's different?It's a lot hotter outside, and a
lot of times the water hasstopped.
And so that just kinda locks youin your mind is I need to pay
much closer attention towatering this plant. And grapes
aren't one that we really worryabout sun. There are some plants

(18:16):
that we would put temporaryshade on. Grapes aren't one of
those. So it's mainly, you know,maintaining uniform moisture
while they're gettingestablished that's critical.

And I'll say if it's been sitting at the garden
center all summer, it probablyhas not been the best care for
it. Sometimes they are, but in alot of cases, there's a reason
they're on sale. They're onclearance.

That's definitely a good point because
not only that, they're, again,in that restricted root
environment in a pot. And sothey're under stress just period
being in the pot. And so, youknow, when you add to, not being
cared for, sooner rather thanlater is the rule for getting
them in the ground. Fortunately,grapes are kind of a desirable

(19:01):
weed, and I use the word weed inthat they grow well once they're
in a good planting environment.

So let's paint a picture here and and for those
listeners, and if you'rewatching on YouTube, maybe we
can find a picture of, like,what a grape growing plant, what
it looks like. Because thesehave to be trellis. Elizabeth,
you mentioned, like, a trunkand, like, cordons. So could you
paint a picture? Like, what whatare we doing?

(19:32):
Like, how is this growth habit,and what is it being supported
with?

I'm gonna preface this with that there are
entire books written ondifferent training systems. So
I'm gonna only talk about one,and it's one that's amenable to
most homeowners. So I wanna makethat clear that they're way
beyond what I'm getting ready todescribe. So when we plant a
grape so let's say that you wentto the garden center. As Ken

(19:58):
says, you go and you buy thispotted grape, it has several
stems growing out of it.
You'll go and plant it, and thisis a hard step for a lot of
people. I would recommend thatyou cut away everything down to
the shoot that you're going tosay this is the best shoot. Keep
one or two buds on it. Removeeverything else. And from those

(20:21):
two buds that need to break andgrow, that first year, you're
not gonna do anything but try totrain, you know, one of those
canes to go straight up for yourtrunks.
That first year, your whole goalis to promote as much leaf
canopy and run that up to yourtop wire. And on a trellis,

(20:41):
that's usually between the fiveand six foot mark. Five and five
and a half is a a good height,for it. So that's what your goal
is in year one. In year two, youshould be able to say, this is
in fact who's going to be mytrunk.
Remove everything else, youknow, that's below, and the idea

(21:02):
then is the buds will break. Inyear two, you're gonna form your
cordons, and think of them asarms. And one's gonna go to the
left, and one's gonna go to theright, and you have to have the
trellis wire for which they'regoing to be, you know, secured
to grow long. And those cordonsare roughly, four feet long when
said and done. And you don'tnecessarily, lay, you know, just

(21:29):
one cane down.
What we're looking for is,cordons that have buds.
Probably, I always use myknuckle about that different
distance between, you know, abud, the next bud. So if I can
do it all along, that. So that'syear two. You're gonna form your
cordons.
And it's in year three. Grapesare born on buds formed the

(21:54):
previous year. And so from thosebuds that you formed on the
cordons, the third year, thosewill form canes that will fall
down, grow down, and that's whenyou'll get your crop in year
three. So you got three years.

So patience is the name of the game.

Yes. Think like asparagus. You don't get food
right away. You have to do somestuff first. Good horticulture.

So, no, one common issue we get well, not common,
but some one issue we get a lotof times with with ornamental
crops or vegetable crops, isherbicide drift damage. I
believe grapes are particularlysensitive, kinda like tomatoes.
You you whisper herbicide tothem and they Yeah. I They get

(22:42):
all shriveled up.

Yeah. If they even sniff a little bit. Yeah.
So they're like red budstomatoes. They're just super
sensitive to a particular typeof herbicide, and those are the
growth regulating type.
And without going into technicaldetail, I'm gonna say that,
twenty four d and dicamba wouldbe two of those that are most
common. And so I tell peoplewhen they grow grapes, you

(23:06):
better start liking dandelionsand clover and things like that
in your lawn because what we useto kill dandelions and clover
within a lawn are things liketwenty four d and dicamba. Those
are growth regulatingherbicides. And so, you you just
really cannot your neighbors, myneighbors all know I have

(23:27):
grapes, and they've beenwonderful. But if a grapevine
gets a strong dose, it couldpotentially, reduce your crop,
particularly if it happensbefore bloom, before fruit set.
Afterwards, it might just dingthe plant up. You know? So it's

(23:50):
you never wanna have drift. Butfor grapes, it's better if it
happens after your fruit is set,than beforehand. But I'm gonna
just say in general, if you'regoing to grow grapes, you're not
gonna be using any of thosetypes of Weed Be Gone is an
example of one of the productsthat can't contains a lot of
these types of herbicides.

And speaking of setting fruit, are are grapes
kinda like apples where you haveto have cultivars cross
pollinate, or do they will theyself pollinate themselves?

I'm gonna say by and large, most of those are
self pollinating. There are afew exceptions that need,
something to cross pollinate.It's not real common, and
usually it's it's quite, youknow, visible on the product tag
that it needs something crosspollinate. So there are a couple
out there that are available forsale, but by and large, most of

(24:42):
them will self pollinate.

So share let your neighbors know that you plan to
share grapes with them if theydon't spray their their lawn
right next to them, and that's areally good incentive, I think.
I'll deal with the dandelion andclover if I can get some
Elizabeth's table grapes.

Well, I think it kinda helps that, you know,
the new trend is a healthierlawn, you know, is is one that
is a mixed species. And so Ithink there's, you know, there
are still some that, you know,have the beautiful emerald grass
lawns, but, I think, you know,they're starting to catch on
that mixed species is is betterfor biodiversity. So it helps us

(25:22):
with grapes as well.

Yep.

So if we could go into our way back machine and,
think about all of the questionsyou've received, Elizabeth,
about grapes and mistakes. Whatwould you say is the most common
mistake that new grape growersmake?

Well, I can do it at different staging. You
know, the first one is pickingsomething that's just not a good
choice. You know, it's eithernot cold hardy enough or it has
such severe sun you know,susceptibility to disease, they
can't keep keep the plantsalive. So there there's step
one. Do your due diligence.
But I think the other one is atplanting. You know, grapes don't

(26:04):
compete well against weeds atall, and so they need to have
for at least their first fiveyears of establishment a
completely vegetation free zonebelow the vines. And so even if
you're just planting one, let'sjust say that you have, you
know, a patio arbor and you'rejust planting one, it needs to

(26:25):
have at the base of the vine acompletely vegetation free. And
we usually, you know, say, oneand a half to two feet, you
know, in all directions, at thebase needs to be for the first
five years. And I don't thinkthat people realize how

(26:46):
seriously, the plant is set backwhen it's in a competitive
situation with, you know, weedsor if they, you know, get a
great idea to plant ornamentalsor something at the base.
I I've been hearing all thesethings, you know, about
biodiversity. Well, not allplants play well nice with
others, and grapes are one thatjust does not do well with

(27:08):
competition, so bare ground. Sothat's probably the, you know,
the second thing that I see. Thethird thing I see is failure to
fertilize. I don't know wherethe mindset or how it's gotten
out that that grapes don't needto be fertilized, but they do.
They might not need to befertilized, you know, as much as

(27:30):
some crops, but they do needand, you know, you can always
look at a grape grapevine andknow whether it's struggling.
And I always tell people thatthe tendrils on the plant are
kinda like your gas pedal. Youknow, right now, if I were
looking at tendrils, if theydidn't extend beyond beyond the
tip of the plant, you know,we're in active growth phase,
those tendrils should be beyondthe tip of the, you know, cane.

(27:53):
And if they're not, I wouldimmediately be saying you need
to fertilize those vines. Theythey don't have enough going for
them.
It's not until you get, youknow, a real strong fruit crop
on there does that kinda slowdown, on there. So fertility is
probably the other thing, andit's usually nitrogen that is

(28:14):
needed.

You know, I I recall it was it was you, and we
also had doctor Brad Taylor withSAU Carbondale came out. We
toured a couple vineyards, and Ireally saw, you know, the the
the plants that were strugglinghad a lot of weed competition.
You know? You and him were bothsaying, like, you gotta do
something about these plants atthe base of these these grape

(28:36):
grapevines. Like, that reallywas very telling.
Like, it really drove home themessage to me. Right.

So mulch? Could you just mulch the base of the
plant?

Yeah. You know, in a home setting, you know, and
as I said, I'm a home, you know,grape grower, and I just use
mulch to help keep, you know,all that under control. You
know, in a commercial setting,you know, that's not something
that they would normally do itin that manner. But for a home
setting, that that worksbeautifully.

Actually, you talked a little bit about after
planting and getting thattraining done. So after we've
got, you know, all thescaffolding and all that, the
cordons and all that set, whatis what kind of yearly pruning
look like once you kinda gotthat plant established?

Yeah. Once you've once you've got the, you
know, the actual architecture ofthe plant set up, there are
there are two basic ways toprune. As I said, there are
entire books on trainingmethods. Well, there's a couple
of different, there's there'scane pruning, and there's also,
spur pruning. And I'm gonna say,by and large, in Illinois, most

(29:46):
of our pruning is spur pruning.
And so what a spur is is justyou know, when I told you in
year three, those canes thatdrop down will form your first
crop. Well, the next dormantseason, you would cut those
canes down to short littleshoots, maybe this long, and we

(30:07):
call those spurs. And afterthat, that is where all of the
canes are going to come from. Soyou're kind of creating a
semenite permanent placement ofwhere all your canes are gonna
come off. And so, as I said,each spur should be about
Elizabeth's knuckle distance onboth sides of the of the of the

(30:28):
cordon.
And, you know, we usually onevery spur, I'm gonna say in
general, two canes will come offof that. And so if you kinda
keep in mind that grapes areborn on buds formed the previous
year, that they're not born onolder wood, that's you know, I

(30:51):
think that might be number fouron what home gardeners do wrong
is they don't prune enough. Theplant should really look like a
stick almost when you're whenyou're done. You know? The
trunk, the cordon with littlestubs, all over the place.
And I think it's difficult,maybe scary. I mean, that's too

(31:14):
excessive of a word, but itmakes them nervous to cut that
much off of the of thegrapevine. But if you just keep
in mind that they're they'remuch like peaches in that you
have to preserve so much of lastyear's wood to get this year's
crop. They're not like apples.You can prune too much off and

(31:34):
really, you know, severely hityour wood.
So that's why we have cordonsand little spurs on there so
that you kinda have, set up foryear after year. Once you have
it set up, it's fairly easy. AndI guess that kinda leads me into
the fifth mistake is notrealizing that all part need to

(31:56):
be replaced at some point on agrapevine. Nothing is permanent.
You know, let's say that you'vegot

a

grapevine and you get freeze injury. Let's
just say we get some crazy freakfreeze injury and the trunk gets
injured. And all of a sudden,the trunk starts shooting up,
you know, new new canes becausethere's an injury, and and all
the old growth just kinda lookssick. It it's just not growing
well. Well, do you keep thatsick vine that's been injured by

(32:28):
freeze, or do you start, hey.
I'm gonna take this new shootthat's coming up and start
training it up, and I'm gonnaretrunk this tree, this vine,
and record on it. It might takesome time. But I think, you
know, as an experienced grapegrower, that's when you
recognize if you've got blindwood on a cordon, you know,
nonproductive area, you don'tleave it that way. You just take

(32:51):
a nice little shoot. You lay itin, tie it down, and eventually,
can cut off, you know, thatplace that doesn't have
production.
So always remember, all parts ofa grapevine eventually will be
replaced. I think they get this,you know, in their mindset, it's
like, oh, I've seen thesehundred year old vines. Well,

(33:12):
it's not a hundred year oldvine. Maybe the root system's
been in the ground that long,but it's probably been retrunked
many, many times over thosehundred years. Just nobody told
them that.

Oh, that sounds so you would be making a major
commitment. I know a few peoplethat have, like, built an entire
trellis over their patio totrain grapes. Yeah. And, oh, if
you got hit by a late freeze orsomething, you're you're
starting over.

And it is. I you know, and that's what I, you
know, tell tell gardeners orbeginners that you always need
to be kind of preserving extraparts. Like, don't clean up the
base of the trunk so much. Youknow? Always have, you know,
something in reserve in casesomething goes wrong because
you're ahead of the game, youknow, keeping some spare parts,

(34:05):
on there.
And so, you know, we can havefreeze injury. Sometimes disease
sneaks in on you, and you haveto make the sacrifice of saying,
you know, I've I've got woodinjury to disease, and I've
gotta cut it away, and you needto lay something else in.
Plant's still alive. You justneed to do something to, you
know, lay in some new cordon oror start a new trunk. Alright.

Well, let's dive into the meaty topic of pest
insects and disease. Now youmentioned, Elizabeth, primarily,
we're focused on disease. Iknow, like, Japanese beetles and
things can get on grapes. But ina backyard, I feel like it'd be
pretty easy just to do the old,you know, pick them off soapy
water thing. There are someinsecticides that you could

(34:52):
spray for Japanese beetles.
I know that's a pretty commonone, but it it it's really
disease that seems to be the thething that that is the why most
people call me at least. Like,what is this this issue with my
grape disease usually? Andoften, I'm just like, I don't
know. So send it to the plantclinic because crepes are

(35:13):
complicated in my eyes. So helpme out here, Elizabeth.
What should we be watching outfor insect and disease wise?

I guess I can't, say it enough. Do your
research, you know, and makesure that you don't invite a
problem. Because if, you know,if all the experts who have been
evaluating these grapevines saythat, you know, x y z is super
sensitive to x y z, you're notspecial. It will come to get you

(35:44):
eventually. That's just areality.
So, you know, for those that arelistening that have grapevines
and have, you know, struggledwith disease, what is nice is is
if you have one and you'recontrolling it, you're basically
controlling all of those if youdo a good job. And so I tell

(36:05):
people that we have, two controlpoints for fruit protection. So
that doesn't mean I'm nottalking about the leaves and
stuff. I'm talking about if youwant fruit, there are two
critical time periods that youneed to protect. And one of
them, you know, is late dormant.
I mean, like, like, very latedormant. If you're standing out

(36:25):
there and you're like, oh, Ithink those buds are starting to
swell, that's when you wanna doyour late dormant as late as
possible. And we do that fordiseases called anthracnose, and
that's something like a copperspray or a liquid lime sulfur.
So there there is a criticalcontrol point right there. The
next one, is immediate prebloom, and you're on a spray

(36:49):
cycle for about four to sixweeks after bloom.
That means going in every twoweeks. You know, if you don't
have a wash off event, thenyou'd have to add some sprays.
But that is the critical periodto protect the fruit so that you
know the fruit is not gonna getblack rot. You know? It helps

(37:09):
with anthracnose and pheomopsisas well.
And so you're controllingseveral diseases. I think, Chris
and Ken, the tricky thing is iswhat products do you need for
controlling, you know, these?And and it's very specific, for
grapes because when you'relooking at pesticides, you need

(37:30):
to have not only an effectivepesticide, but you need one
that's labeled for grapes. Andyou need to be able to apply it
within, you know, the preharvest interval or the PHI. All
food crops have, you know, a PHIfor their pesticides.
And so when I've alreadymentioned that the dormant
period, you know, you need tohave either copper or liquid

(37:51):
lime sulfur. And there are anumber of if you grow fruit
crops, you probably have thatbecause that's a dormant
application for a lot of thingslike peaches and apples as well.
And so, you know, there areother crops that you'll use that
for. But when we look at grapes,they have two diseases that are
not controlled by the normalfungicide, you know, that we use

(38:12):
in vegetable crops. You know, areal common would be
chlorthalonil, the activeingredient.
That does not have any activityon black rot or powdery mildew.
It does absolutely nothing. Andso if you use, you know, your
traditional fungicide on grapes,it it just isn't gonna help you
out at all. And so when we lookat grapes, it's really important

(38:35):
to know what is effective. Andso for black rot, something, you
know, that, has the activeingredient mancozeb is very
effective for black rot.
So you need to source that. AndI think ortho and bone eye
probably both make a mancozebproduct that you mix with water

(38:56):
and spray spray on. So that'syour e early season spray. There
is another product, that is madeby Spectracide, and it's called
Spectracide Immunox. I thinkit's, general purpose.
And the active ingredient ismycobutanol, And that is very
effective again against blackrot and powdery mildew. And so

(39:18):
that's the next one that youneed. So Mancozeb and the
Spectrocyte Immunox for grapes.So for grapes, you're going to
get some very specific, notgeneral, very specific. And
they're available, the not asreadily, so you might have to do
some looking around, ahead oftime to make sure that you've

(39:40):
got a supply of it.
But I also for late season,because I mentioned a PHI,
Mancozeb has a seventy seven dayPHI. So you can use it early
season to get you through thatblack rock window, but then you
need to stop. And then what canyou spray after that? And that's
when cap ten comes in. And so,again, that's why people should

(40:03):
be thinking, oh gosh.
That seems like an awful lot ofwork. That's why I go back to do
your research and find somethingthat's not quite so susceptible
to all these diseases because itwill really reduce how much, you
know, pesticide applications youhave to do. And that kind of
moves me to someone always asksme, I wanna grow these

(40:27):
organically. In Illinois, blackrot is our Waterloo. We do not
have an effective organicproduct for black rot.
And so if you wanna groworganically, it is critical that
you do your research and findsomething that is not, you know,
susceptible to black rot. Youneed to find one that has

(40:50):
slightly susceptible to giveyourself a fighting chance, to
grow grapes. And that's just mycomment on that. All the other
ones, can probably find anorganic solution, you know, for,
but black rot is the one that wedo not have a good organic
solution for.

What family is the grapes in? What plant family?

Spydus.

Mhmm.

I I think that it's just its

own family. Own.

Mhmm. Okay.

That up while we're talking.

Yes.

Looking right now. You'd think I'd know that,
but I think it's its own family.

Itaceae.

Yeah. Itaceae.

Itaceae. Okay. I was like, alright. I gotta gotta
clue. It's and my my brainoperates in plant family
sometimes, though, so I gottaplop it in its own little
category in my head.

Sometimes that's important to know. Mhmm.
Make kind of relationships toother plants.

Mhmm. That's how I I do a tree fruit. I'm like, oh,
yeah. Like, that's in the rosefamily. So we're you know, this
is the suite of diseases thatwe're dealing with here.

Yeah. With the rose family, you immediately
know fire blight is a is apossibility because it's
restricted to the rose family.You know, it's Japanese beetle
or, you know, one of those againthat you usually think of them
restricted to the rose family.But, man, when it comes to
grapes, they love grapes. And Iwill say, you know, we talked
about establishment.

(42:26):
That is you know, a maturegrapevine can take quite a bit
of feeding, you know, on theleaves. You definitely don't
want them on your fruit. Whenthey start going to your fruit,
then you better get in there, asChris said, and start knocking
them off into soapy water anddrowning them. But, you know, on
on young grapevines that you'vejust planted, they can totally
defoliate them in a quick hurry,and so can deer. Deer are a

(42:52):
serious pest to freshly,planted.
And so, you know, whenever I'veplanted new grapevines, I I do
my, my my cheap version of justhardware cloth bent around a a
wood stick so that, you know,there's some protection because
a deer will go after themimmediately.

So if if someone's got, a vine that's not producing
fruit, I guess it's gonna dependon why it's not fruiting, but
what should they do, to rectifythat?

Well, you know, one of the first questions I ask
is, is this a pruned grapevine?And and, usually, it's one of
two things. You know, it itneeds fertility is one of the
possibilities, but the otherthing is is usually pruning, and
then it it needs to be broughtback into a fruiting state. You

(43:43):
know, like many plants, ifthey're overly vigorous and, you
know, in a vegetative state andtoo much shading on itself, then
it's not fruitful, and you don'tget enough crop. And so,
usually, the first thing I sayis, have you run a soil test so
that we can see, you know,whether there needs to be a a

(44:03):
bump up in fertilizer?
But it usually has something todo with pruning. Then it needs
to have a lot removed to open itup to sunshine and make it more
fruitful.

So if somebody's got a grapevine that that hasn't
been pruned in a while, like,kinda like tree fruit, you do
that over a period of time toget it back under control. So
the same thing with grapes, orcan we just can you kinda hack
it back at hack it back anddump?

Yeah. It's it no. You can you can turn it into
what it needs to be, right fromright from you know, with with
apples, we usually, you know,save, you know, one to two big
cuts, and a a big cut would beanything you can't use your
loppers on. Anything that youneed to have a pruning saw or
chainsaw is a big cut. So, youknow, one, maybe two.

(44:52):
But grapes, no. You need to youneed to get them turned around
right away. And that's where,you know, if if you've got a a
grapevine that hasn't beenpruned, you really need to study
all the parts first to see ifwhat was the initial cordon is
already kinda in sad shape,whether the trunk is in sad

(45:16):
shape, because you might be in asituation where you're just
cutting the entire trunk andpreserving one of those new
canes coming up and starting allover. So I will say kind of
evaluate the situation. I was ina commercial vineyard just
recently, and the recommendationwas to cut them all off and
start over the whole entire thewhole entire vineyard.

(45:38):
It was in bad enough shape that,you know, they they bought an
existing vineyard that had notbeen cared for, and that's what
they did. And grapes, as I say,are kinda like weeds. They'll
they'll take off and go on you.

Well, I I see this trend happening quite a bit. You
know, we have we have our patioblueberries and tomatoes. You
know, you don't have to trellisthese things. You don't have to
worry about, you know, too muchmaintenance or care, so low
maintenance. And actually, mycounty director, she had
purchased some of thesegrapevines, mini grapevines or

(46:14):
something.
She thought, oh, I could justplant this and just leave it
alone. I might know the answerto this already, but Elizabeth,
are there any grapes that we canjust plant and forget some low
maintenance ones?

Well, you know, I'm probably gonna give a wishy
washy answer to this becausewhen we're growing a fruit
plant, not just grapes, weusually are highly manipulating
them to towards our desire for acrop. And so I think there needs

(46:48):
to be an understanding that wecan pretty much walk away from
any plant, and let it do its ownthing, and it doesn't need us,
on there. You know, what mytakeaway on that is is you have
to think about, you know, is itsusceptible to disease? Because
that might come back and biteyou, you know, if you just walk

(47:09):
away and it was susceptible. Butone of the other things that
usually happens when you justwalk away and we're not
manipulating it with pruning,you know, and combing down
cordons and keeping everythingstraight and exposed to the sun
is that we don't have as muchyield.
And so I can say, yes. You know,if something happens in your

(47:30):
life and you have to walk awayfrom it, usually the plant is
not gonna die, but you might notget the yield potential, you
know, of that one or two vinesthat you would have otherwise
gotten.

I guess that that makes sense too. You know? Like,
you you can walk away. Theseplants aren't necessarily going
to just die right away if westop paying attention to them.
Like, there's a grower I workwith her, and she's got Concord
grapes that that came with thefarm.
And she I don't think she reallydoes anything to them, but she
just harvest them as much as shecan and makes maybe a gallon or

(48:05):
two of grape juice every yearout of it.

And, you know, even when I talk about, you
know, apples, you know, in acommercial in a commercial
setting, we've come up with allthis research because the whole
goal is to make you know, besustainable and make a profit.
You know, when we are homegardening, that's not
necessarily our goals, you know,on things. And so, you know, if

(48:33):
I give an example of having anapple tree, you know, that
reaches out and, you know, getsyou every time you try to mow
it, you know, a homeowner, youknow, is more likely to go in
there and, you know, lop thatlimb off to make life, you know,
a little bit easier for them tomow. And I think, you know, a
lot of home growing has to besomewhat adjusted to a home

(48:57):
environment, for that reason.

Yes. Alright. So we've we've weathered the storm
with our our pests and diseases.Our grapes are are ready to
pick. How do we know when topick them?

Well, I you know, for homeowners that don't
have the equipment, I mean,there's obviously you know, you
can buy a refractometer, youknow, and and measure the
bricks, you know, and and, youknow, pick at a certain bricks.
And that's how winemakers do it.I mean, they actually are are
looking at specific bricks. Butfor a homeowner like me, I go

(49:33):
out and, you know, I I sample.And I sample on the shade side,
you know, on the north side ofthe trellis.
I sample on the south side ofthe trellis. I sample at the tip
of the cluster, and I sample atthe shoulder. When it tastes
good to me, that's when Iharvest. So I always tell

(49:56):
people, don't go on colorbecause they go through raisin,
and that's the coloring phase, alot sooner than they're truly
ripe before they have builttheir sugar content and before
they have their full flavorprofile. And so it really is a
go out and taste them and see ifthey're ready to go.

(50:17):
Now there are you know, not tomuddy the waters, but I guess I
am. There are some, Americanvarieties like Edelweiss that
you know, we always talk aboutAmerican grapes having a foxy
flavor to them or a muskiness.Well, Edelweiss is one that is
super musky, almost to the pointof, you know, distasteful. And

(50:41):
so it is kinda one of thoseexceptions that we harvest it
before it's fully ripe. And so,it's it's an exception.
Otherwise, I would just say doit on taste.

I guess if you go out and you harvest, are there
any methods for, like, storingor preserving the grapes that we
harvest? I suppose refrigerationor or fermentation, but, yeah,
what what how do we store thesethings that we've harvested?

Yeah. Grapes are usually good in the
refrigerator for about twoweeks, you know, if you've
harvest them in good condition.You know, there there's not some
underlying fruit rot. You knowhow fruit is. If there's one bad
berry, it it can spread.
So assuming that you have, youknow, done a good job of
cleaning, they'll store in therefrigerator for you to be able

(51:32):
to decide, you know, what you'regoing, to do with them. In my
home, I grow, like I say,Sunbelt, which is a Concord
style. When I harvest, Iimmediately go into, pressing
because, these, grapes, anythingthat you're going to chill, is

(51:55):
gonna precipitate out, thetartrate acid in there. And so
you'll have I've I've suppliedyou a picture, for that, to see
that. But we call those, winediamonds.
And so tartrate acid is whatgives grapes their flavor. It's

(52:16):
part of the flavor profile. Butone of the distracting things is
is when you, squeeze the juiceand it gets chilled down, they
precipitate out, and we callthem wine diamonds. And so it's
totally safe to, you know,ingest these crystals, but it's
not really that palatable. Andso when I, bring in, my grapes,

(52:42):
first thing I do is I pressthem, and then I just stick them
in the refrigerator for, youknow, at least a day, to get
those, to precipitate out.
And then I filter them out justthrough cheesecroth. And then I,
you know, go through whateverI'm gonna use it, jams, jellies,
or just juice. But I think thatis one thing that you got about

(53:02):
a two week window, to decidewhat you're gonna do with your
grapes, if you're just gonna eatthem fresh or if you're gonna
actually, you know, juice themout and and make vines or jams
or jellies or something likethat. But be aware of wine
diamonds. And we call we callthat gosh.

(53:23):
I just had a senior moment. Coldstabilization. Sorry. By putting
it, in the refrigerator, to toforce that to happen. I don't
know if you've ever had, grapejuice that hasn't been cold
stabilized before it was put inthe jar.
You know, they maybe wentthrough the canning process, and

(53:44):
then they stick it in therefrigerator, and all of a
sudden there's just this whitelayer at the bottom. Those are
all those, crystals that haveformed that you kind of avoid
pouring in your glass. And so bydoing it ahead of time, you can
avoid that. Again, it's allsafe. It's it's part of the
grape that we normally eat, butit's that chilling that causes

(54:07):
it.

There are some diamonds we don't want.

Yeah. There's some diamonds we

Alright. So wrap so wrapping up here. We didn't ask
you at the beginning. What isyour preferred method of eating
grapes? Table, raisin, fermentedjuice?

I'm an equal opportunity. I I keep I keep
raisins on on hand at all times.They go into every salad. I eat
a lot of curries. They're in Imean, I cook with them, so
they're in.
We have grapes and fresh grapesin the refrigerator as well, but
grape juice is one of ourfavorite. Either I made it or we

(54:48):
buy it when we run out. So I'mgonna and I definitely imbibe
it, fermented as well. So I Ijust am an equal opportunity. I
don't know that I have afavorite one over the other.
I I just thoroughly enjoy them.

Alright. And I guess do you have a favorite
grape variety? If there's onlyyou only grow one type of grape
variety, what would it be andwhy?

Oh, it has to be a Concord. I I've been ruined
as a child, you know, growing upwith Welch's cooperative. I you
know, the rest of the worldoutside of The United States,
you know, just is appalled thatwe eat American grapes. You
know? They that foxiness is atotal fault.
You know? And that might be, butI have an acquired palate for

(55:34):
it. I will always love it. Ilove it as as juice. I love it,
you know, sparkling, and I loveit fermented.
And so I think that it I wouldalways have a Concord grape. My
second one is anything that has,you know, the Muscat heritage in

(55:55):
it. I I really like that flavor.And there are a lot of options
of muscat flavoring too in intable grapes and wine grapes. So
if people like muscat, there areseveral.
You know, if you look at,something like Neptune table
grape, which is, very suited toIllinois seedless, it has that

(56:19):
muscat, background flavor thatis very desirable to a lot of
people, that nice sweetness,almost a cloying sweetness, but
good. But I'm gonna say aConcord type, like what I grow,
Sunbelt.

I

mentioned Oh, I I'll I'll mention that I grow
Sunbelt. One of the problemswith Concord as you move to a
warmer climate is it does notripen evenly, and so it has
green berries. And so that's whySunbelt was developed, was to
have more uniform ripening in awarm climate. So that's why I
have that instead of thestraight Concord.

Hopefully, my great trepidation has not, you
know, scared anyone off ofgrowing this because now at the
end of the show, I feel like Icould do this again. So,
Elizabeth, do you have anyparting words for someone like
me or someone listening orwatching that is going to be
starting their grape growingjourney?

Disease resistance. Disease resistance.
Disease resistance. There'snothing and I think we can all
disagree or agree on this isthere's nothing more
disappointing, than to havedisease take out your plant and
just struggle to get it undercontrol, particularly, you know,
if you don't have the the, youknow, the time or the

(57:39):
inclination to be, you know,spraying, you know, every other
week, if not not more for it. SoI I'm gonna say do your
homework, and you can find somevarieties out there that are are
very good, that almost seem likeyou can walk away if it weren't
for the pruning requirements.

Well, that was a lot of great information about
growing grapes in your very ownbackyard. Well, the Good Growing
podcast is a production ofUniversity of Illinois
Extension, edited this week byKen Johnson. And a special thank
you to our special guest today,Doctor. Elizabeth Wally.
Elizabeth, thank you so much forbeing on the show today.
It's always so great to have youhere and to learn from your vast

(58:23):
amount of great growingknowledge as of today that we
got. Thank you.

As always, it was a pleasure,

Thank you. And Ken, thank you very much for for
being here, editing, and andalso, you know, growing the
grapes. Do you grow grapes, Ken?

I I don't, but after today. Like you, I I feel
more confident now.

So Mhmm.

Maybe sometime down the line. When I have more time,
I'll try.

Next year.

I was saying thank you, Elizabeth, as always. It's
great having you on. And Chris,let's do this again next week.

Oh, we shall do this again next week. It's
milkweed, the plant of the yearfor 2025. We'll talk all about
Asclepus, that genus. Nowthere's many different species
out there I think we can cover.So I yeah.
We are going to be discussingmilkweed next week. So listener,
thank you for doing what you dobest and that is listening. Or
if you're watching us onYouTube, watch it. And as

(59:23):
always, keep on growing.

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