Performance-Based Identities with Dr. Ben Walker

How do your achievements shape your sense of self? In this episode of Grow the Good, I sit down with Ben Walker, an expert in organizational behavior from Victoria University of Wellington, to explore the intricate world of performance-based identities. We discuss how the labels we attach to ourselves shape our sense of self and influence our deeper motivations. Ben offers enlightening perspectives on the risks associated with tying our self-worth too closely to performance and provides actionable strategies for fostering a healthier, more balanced identity. From expanding our social circles to engaging in activities just for the joy of it, learn how to break free from the cycle of constant self-evaluation and thrive in authenticity. Tune in to start transforming how you view success and to nurture a more resilient and genuine version of yourself.

Here’s what you’ll learn:

• Complexity of Identities: Performance-based identities involve how we see ourselves and the underlying reasons why achievements are so crucial to our self-concept.
• Multiple Identities: It's possible to have several performance-based identities that merge into a broader high-performer persona, which can lead to burnout if not managed well.
• Social Influences: The groups we interact with significantly affect our performance identities. Introducing variety in our social lives can help maintain balance.
• Value of Hobbies: Pursuing activities that don’t revolve around evaluation is vital for mental health, providing a break from the pressure of performance.

Importance of Reflection: Regular self-reflection and the courage to shift away from outdated identities are essential for managing and evolving our self-perception healthily.

LINKS:

Ben Walker LinkedIn | Google Scholar
Work Ethic, Perspective, and Identity with Alsion Tetrick
Play Your Way to Peak Performance with Elaine O’Brien

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The Grow the Good Podcast is produced by Palm Tree Pod Co.

Episode Transcript

Ben Walker (00:00):
If your ideal self is to be the best at whatever

(00:04):
the thing is in the world, it'sthe bullseye on the target. You
know, it's a really narrow thingto hit. The upside of that can
be more motivation, sort ofperpetual desire to be better,
but the downside is you neverreally get any satisfaction of
actually getting there.

Sonya Looney (00:31):
Hey everyone, welcome back to grow the good.
Formerly, the Sonia Looney show,this podcast is your guide to
continued personal growth,meaningful connections and a
positive impact on the world,challenge the notion that you
are broken or need fixing.
Instead, discover how tocultivate the good that already
exists within you and amplifystrength and potential you may
not realize you have grounded inthe science of positive

(00:53):
psychology and guided by thepillars of purpose, vitality,
resilience, hope and connection.
Each episode is packed withtools, stories and evidence
backed insights to help youcreate a more authentic and
flourishing life. I'm so excitedabout transitioning from the
Sonia Looney show to grow thegood. This has been a long time

(01:13):
coming, and I did a solo episodeyou'll be hearing soon, giving
you all the details about why wechanged to grow the good. It
feels like a new energy is here.
Typically, people love the newyear because of the fresh start,
and there is actually sciencearound how fresh starts can help
people change their habits. Butfor me, the New Year is now

(01:33):
symbolizing a different type offresh start. I'm still racing at
the professional level, but myfocus is primarily on my
business, on grow the goodexecutive and mental performance
coaching, on my keynotespeaking, and on becoming an
author, which is a little bitdaunting, and I'm still racing
and all those things, but myfocus has shifted to really

(01:56):
trying to rebrand who I am andwhat I do and that transition, I
could record a podcast aboutthat. That's tough. You know,
I'm still a professionalathlete. I still have sponsors
that are supporting me that Ialso very much care about. I
still care about racing. And onthe outside, it probably won't

(02:17):
look that different, but on theinside for me, it is very
different, a shift in what I amtrying to grow, and growing the
good is about growing the goodin yourself and others and in
the world. And I feel like thework that I've been doing has
been checking all those boxes,from finishing my Master of
Applied positive psychology lastyear to the coaching work
certifications and client workI've done over the last several

(02:40):
years as well to the topics ofmy keynote speaking this, this
name really helps signify andpull together everything that
I've been working towards. I'mso grateful that you're on this
journey with me, and I'd reallyappreciate it if you could share
the show with your friends andto help us get this momentum
going with our rebrand this weekis very exciting. So today, I am

(03:02):
heading back to Philadelphia, tothe University of Pennsylvania,
not as a student, but as amember of the instructor team
for the Master of Appliedpositive psychology. It's so
exciting. This is a dream cometrue. It was something I was
thinking about even while I wasa student, something that I
deeply wanted to do, so that Icould guide new students and be

(03:22):
a tailwind to help encouragethem and support them in their
learning journey, to increase mylearning journey, learning so
much from the students in theprogram, getting to hear many
new lectures and old lecturesall over again, staying very
close and engaged With thecontent of this master's
program, which I think is justabsolutely phenomenal, and to be

(03:43):
part of a team, a lot of thework I do is by myself, not that
I accomplish everything bymyself. I have great team, just
like I do here at Palm Tree pod,who helps this podcast grow. But
oftentimes I'm working solo withpeople supporting me, and to be
able to work on a team withother people in real time is
just something that I'm soexcited about. And I feel a new

(04:05):
momentum. I feel a shift inmyself, and I don't know exactly
what that's going to look like,and I think that's something for
a lot of us to remember as weare moving forward through
change or through transitions,or even whenever we're just
thinking about trying somethingnew, is a lot of us want
certainty, but you can't havecertainty if you want to have

(04:25):
adventure, if you want to havefulfillment, curiosity and
uncertainty go hand in hand.
Today's guest is one I'm veryexcited about, Dr Ben Walker. He
is an expert in organizationalbehavior and has spent years
exploring the psychologicalcomplexities of how we define
ourselves through ouraccomplishments. So Ding, ding,

(04:47):
ding, this is right on the moneyif you listen to any of my
episodes from the fall, I talkedabout my my research that I did
in my master's program that wonan award. It was about how
perfectionists can rethink a.
Accomplishment and find agreater sense of accomplishment
through thinking about theirpurpose in life and how the
impact of their accomplishmentsis more than just an outcome. I
think this applies to everybody,and I found Dr Ben Walker

(05:12):
through my research in doingthis work, and he has also been
a mentor in moving forward insome of the work that I hope to
do. So it's been really awesometo get to interview him on the
podcast, and a performance basedidentity is something that we're
going to talk about today.
Whether it's in your career, insports or in other areas of your

(05:33):
life, it's so easy to get caughtup in the pursuit of best and
even in the pursuit of excellentthose are not bad things, but it
can become a problem at certaintimes, whenever it becomes
integrated into your identityand generate a performance based
identity. Now a performancebased identity isn't always a
bad thing, but it can becomeone, and we'll talk about that

(05:54):
today. We'll talk about some ofthe serious downsides of having
a performance based identity. Alot of us as athletes struggle
with this as cyclists, whetheryou're a professional or not, we
worry so much about what otherpeople think about us, and we
think that people only careabout us because we are
performing well. This issomething that I really struggle
with across multiple domains.
Performance based, identity isformed for different reasons,

(06:16):
which you'll hear about today,but we'll be peeling back the
layers and the complexities ofthis of what it means to be a
high performer. Dr Ben Walkerwill share his insights on the
pitfalls of performance basedidentities and how we can
navigate them. We'll delve intothe thin line between striving
for success and being consumedby it man that is hard, and I
think that this is such animportant topic for people who

(06:39):
are concerning themselves withperformance and with striving,
we'll talk about the nuances ofperformance based identity, how
they develop the potential harmsthey can cause, and strategies
for managing them in healthierways. Dr Walker challenges the
common assumption that obsessingover success is necessary for
achievement whether you identifyas a high performer yourself, or

(07:01):
you know someone who is drivenby a need to constantly Excel,
this episode offers a freshperspective. Dr Ben Walker's
insights will encourage us allto reflect on how we define our
sense of self and discover morebalance and meaning in our lives
beyond just the pursuit ofperformance. This topic is a
primary topic in my coachingbusiness. This is what

(07:23):
executives and high performersand athletes come to me to work
on. So if you know anybody whois who is managing their
performance based identity needssome help, some support. I'm
here. I'm here to help them bemore resilient. I'm here to help
them have more purpose in theirgoals and in their life moving
forward. So don't keep me asecret if you think that
somebody would benefit from myhelp as a coach. All right, so

(07:45):
let's get ready to redefine whatbeing your best self truly means
with Dr Ben Walker, hey.
Ben Welcome to the show.

Ben Walker (08:04):
Thanks so much for having me. Thanks for the
invitation. It's so

Sonya Looney (08:08):
much fun to kind of come full circle, because I
read a lot of your work from myresearch capstone for my
Masters, and then we got to chatabout it. So that was pretty
cool. You call yourself a worknerd. Can you tell me more about
what that is, because, I mean, Iidentify it as a nerd, so that's
working. Yeah,

Ben Walker (08:25):
yeah, it's a term. I only just started using that
term recently because I found itreally difficult and quite
painful to say to people whenthey ask me what I do, I
usually, in the past, I wouldjust give them my job title,
which is Senior Lecturer inorganizational behavior, and
when you say that to most normalpeople, their eyes just glaze

(08:45):
over and they go, the hell whatdo you actually do? Like just
creates more confusion thanclarity. So I found the term
work nerd really helpful to justgive people an immediate sense
of what I do. Basically, I'm anacademic at a university in New
Zealand, Victoria University ofWellington, and I study the
human side of work. And so allof that kind of falls under this

(09:10):
umbrella of the field oforganizational behavior. And so
we have psychologists andsociologists and anthropologists
people from looking at thesesort of human aspects of work
using all of these differentlenses and theories and research
approaches. And that's basicallythe field that I work in and

(09:31):
research. And hence the titlework nerd. So yeah, for me, my
interests are very much on thepsychological side. I'm really
interested in issues ofidentity, and sort of the
intersection between our worklives and our identities and
sense of selves. I'm sure we'lltalk about that a bit in this
conversation and in otherprojects, sort of research

(09:55):
programs I have, one is relatedto psychology, of engaging.
Experts and expertise, and howcan we sort of promote higher
quality interactions withexperts and organizations, but
also by experts inorganizations. And a sort of
another research program isabout looking at sort of counter

(10:15):
perspectives on motivation andhigh performance. So doing
research and studies that makeus think differently and think
beyond or maybe even rethink theconventional wisdom that's out
there about what leads makespeople perform at high levels in
their profession or occupation,and also what it's like to sort

(10:36):
of to exist as a high performerin whatever your chosen
occupation is. So, yeah, it's abit about me and my research,
and hopefully helps clarify thatwork nerd too.

Sonya Looney (10:51):
So performance is this buzzword that everybody
wants. I want performance. Iwant to optimize my performance.
What are some of the dark sidesto that, to always obsessing
over performance.

Ben Walker (11:05):
I think you can think about it. And I mean, the
tricky thing that I always thinkof with performance and making
it a really central part of yourlife is that it's so I mean,
it's always moving, you know?
It's a moving target, if you dohappen to be the best at
something at a given point intime, there's always the

(11:25):
possibility that you might beshifted to a new pond where
you're in with bigger fish, youknow. So if you become the best
at something in yourorganization or in your region,
even your country, right,there's always a possibility
that the pond that you'reperforming in can be expanded so
that you're then competing withpeople who are probably better

(11:46):
than you. So there's thatelement of uncertainty, but then
there's also the possibility, Ithink, and this is especially
true. I mean, it's probably lesstrue in domains like sport, but
it's definitely true, I think,when we think about a lot of
modern occupations, which arethese sort of knowledge based
jobs, where we tend to beworking with ideas instead of

(12:07):
things, and one of the points Ihear repeatedly from people
working in these kind of jobsabout performance is that they
don't really know whatperformance means or looks like.
You know, people have some ideaabout what the standards might
be to call yourself a worldclass consultant or something
like that, but at the end of theday, it's all very kind of

(12:29):
amorphous and ambiguous andreally hard to pin down. So
again, I think that in additionto that shifting cons thing, the
amorphous nature of performancein so many different occupations
and industries can mean thatyou're sort of, you know,
valuing something that'sactually really difficult to put
your finger on. And even if youdo manage to put your finger on

(12:53):
it, it might slip away from youvery quickly because of all of
that variation and kind of chaosaround performance.

Sonya Looney (13:03):
It's like performance as an outcome is
something that shifts and isuncontrollable. But like, if you
view yourself as a performer, aperformer, somebody who
performs, can you differentiatethat a bit more? Because I think
you were talking about both ofthose a little bit. Yeah,

Ben Walker (13:20):
they're different things, right? So I think at a
base level, I mean, there's allsorts of big, sort of
psychological theories that saythat a funded humans have a
fundamental need for competence.
You know, we want to be at somelevel. We want to be good at
things. We want to feel likethat we have mastery over our
lives and our environments. So Ithink that that kind of goes

(13:42):
without saying, that that basicneed for competence is there.
But yeah, there is adistinction, I think, and that's
something I've kind of looked atin my research on performance
based identities, where peoplesort of shift from, yes, I have
the sort of need for competenceto making it an identity and
anchoring the sense of self toit, that it's kind of a

(14:03):
different a different kind ofrelationship with performance. I
suppose it's not necessarilyjust a box to check to say, Yes,
I have some degree of competencein my life. It's saying this is
a really central part of mylife. It's a central part of how
I see and understand myself andmy purpose in the world. So,
yeah, they are quite they'requite different relationships

(14:26):
with performance. I think one issort of, you know, if you're
just relating to performance, inthat first sense, it's more sort
of instrumental. You might wantto, you know, do a do a decent
job at work, to get paid more,or to be able to meet your
family's needs or whatever itis, really the other one is very
much a sort of more existentialrelationship with performance,

(14:47):
and, like you said, reallymaking it the center of who you
are, in the center of your yourworld and your life. I suppose
those are obviously too extreme.
And I think different peoplewill be at different places on
the spectrum between thosethings. But, yeah, it's a
helpful way to sort of, I guess,start that conversation and

(15:08):
think about, what are the sortof two, those two different ways
of relating to performance. This

Sonya Looney (15:15):
is something you and I were talking about a
little bit off the mic last timewas athletes and, you know,
coming from my world ofathletes, and there's probably
lots of people listening saying,Wow, I might, you know, be
forming a performance basedidentity, or I might have one
even, even if I'm not aprofessional, even if it's not
what I do for work, like thatthing that I put all my time and
energy into. Can you furtherdefine a performance based

(15:38):
identity? So people can startkind of thinking, Well, is this
something that I'm wrestlingwith?

Ben Walker (15:43):
Yeah, so I kind of think of it as, I mean, there's
a there's a technicaldefinition, and then there's the
sort of like, what you'retalking about is how, what would
be a sign that you kind of haveone. So the technical way, I
kind of think about aperformance based identity, or
have come to think about itafter, after studying it in
different ways is really havingtwo parts to it. So there's this

(16:07):
sort of performance selfknowledge, which is kind of the
label that people givethemselves and and that label
could be, you know, there'sloads of different labels people
could get themselves. They couldthink of themselves as a top
performer, as a good performer,maybe as someone who's a lot
better than they used to be. Ifyou want to sort of be, you
know, take a self focusedperspective. So there's a sort

(16:29):
of self knowledge as the labelpart, and then the second part
of it is what I sort of callpersonal meanings. And these the
reasons why that label mattersto someone. And with the
personal meanings. I mean, Ithink here too, it's important
to emphasize it's not just aboutthe sort of instrumental reasons

(16:50):
I was talking about earlier, whyanyone cares about doing a good
job at something. You know, it'sit's to get paid more, it's to
keep my job. It's to keep myboss happy and off my back, or
whatever it is, those sort oflike surface level reasons with
these meanings, they're muchmore existential and kind of
deeply rooted. So it might besomething like, you know, I

(17:14):
being that kind of performer isimportant to me, because it's
something I've invested so muchof my life into, and I see it as
kind of my calling, or as my mypurpose in life, to sort of be
really good at whatever yourthing is, sports, hobbies,
whatever. So, yeah, I thinkthat's an important distinction.
It's, I don't think you get to aperformance based identity just

(17:37):
by caring about doing a goodjob. There's some extra, sort of
deeper, more existentialmeanings that have to be. They
have to sort of be attached tothat label. And that,
ultimately, is what kind ofmakes the thing self defining.
And so this idea of selfdefinition, I think, is where we

(17:57):
get to the part of, well, how doyou kind of know if you have
one? And the test I always sortof use Well, you know, and it's
a blunt shortcut, admittedly,but I think it's helpful to
think for people to think if, ifyou took that identity away,
would you still be you? Wouldyou still have other identities

(18:20):
and other things in life andother ways of understanding
yourself that would still, youknow, you'd still be reasonably
intact if that identity was lostor erased for whatever reason.
And that's not always an easyquestion to answer, but I think
it's a helpful one to thinkabout to start along that path

(18:41):
of, sort of, you know,critically reflecting and
considering if this is anidentity that's sort of relevant
to to you as a person.

Sonya Looney (18:52):
Can you have multiple performance based
identities, like, say, I have aperformance based identity as an
athlete or as, like, whateverelse I might be doing.

Ben Walker (19:01):
I think, I mean, I totally think so in theory. And
I also think it's possible,though, that these sometimes
converge into something moreglobal. So I think, as part of
my PhD research was all on thisperformance based identity
stuff. I interviewed a bunch ofelite rugby players in
Australia, about 30 players, menand women. And I remember there

(19:23):
was one interviewee who sort ofjust seemed to take a lot of
pride in the fact he was good atkind of everything, and that,
you know, I'm sitting there worknerd, kind of being like, Oh,
damn you so talented and andamazing. But he was like, he was
clearly very good at lots ofthings. He was good at sports.
He was good academically. Youknow, he was getting into sort

(19:44):
of business things andinvestment, and he was very good
at these things. And I thinkthere was a for me, there was a
sense of interviewing him, thatthere was sort of a convergence
to not just having these, thesemultiple identities, but them
actually kind of fusing togetherinto something more global. And
sort of just seeing yourself asa as a high performer, more
generally. I think I rememberhim saying something like, you

(20:08):
know, it's not, it's not justgood enough to be a good rugby
player. Similarly, thinking, youknow, he's reached the the elite
level. I'm like, well, maybe itis, but he was sort of thing,
he's not just good enough to bea good rugby player. You've got
to sort of be good at everythingelse in life as well. And so
he's held himself to a very highstandard. But yeah, I think it
is. I think it's definitelypossible to have multiple
performance based identities,and I also think it's possible,

(20:31):
like I said, for them to kind ofconverge or fuse into something
that's, you know, a broadersense of being a high performer
in life, as opposed to just inone particular domain.

Sonya Looney (20:41):
And when I hear this, I think about how this
could be a good thing, but Ialso think about how it could be
a bad thing. And you know, ifyou view yourself as highly
competent, highly capable, andI'm somebody that can
essentially go after anythingand do well at it, that there
could be benefits there. But ifyou go after things and you
don't do well at it, and youridentity is at stake, then that

(21:02):
becomes highly problematic. Whatcan people do if they if they
feel that way, they feel like Ihave a performance based
identity, but I'm not performingthe way that I used to or the
way that I want to beperforming.

Ben Walker (21:14):
That's a really good point. Arthur Brooks, who's a
professor of leadership at theHarvard Business School has a
really great video on this exacttopic. I think it just came out,
like a month or so ago onYouTube. And he sort of talks
about this, you know, themetaphor he uses is this idea of

(21:35):
the success machine and peopleseeing themselves as success
machines. And his argument inthat video is basically that,
you know, this is kind of like aform of objectifying yourself,
like reducing yourself to just anon human entity who achieves
things, is like a form ofobjectification in a way. And so

(21:58):
he's sort of saying, you know,existentially, but also
potentially morally. It's, it's,it's a, it's not necessarily a
place you want to be in. In thatvideo, I don't think the thing
for me is, I thought that was anamazing analogy. The video kind
of ended, though, without toomany, too much in the way of
like, okay, so what do I kind ofdo about that? One thing that I

(22:21):
think is bad advice for peoplewho might be struggling with
those kind of things is justsaying, Well, don't just care
less, you know. Just care lessabout doing well and and
everything. Will find it's liketelling someone who's who's
who's neurotic, like, just, justdon't worry about things so
much, you know. And I don'tthink that's necessarily good
advice, and the reason why is, Ithink, that also overlooks the

(22:42):
fact that ultimately, and thisis something that's true of any
kind of identity, and that we'veknown about identities for over
100 years, as identities areultimately products of your
social environment. They're notjust things that pop into our
heads and you know, through someamazing sort of coincidence the
products of our socialenvironments. So if you're if

(23:04):
you're someone who is attachinga lot of importance to and
making performance a reallycentral part of your life, it's
probably got something to dowith the kind of people that
you're hanging out with and thatyou surround yourself with most.
And so I think I really probablyone of the best bits of advice I
can give, because I think it'simportant for people to first

(23:24):
identify what those circlesmight be, and then the second
step is to kind of be like,Okay, maybe, maybe it's not
about necessarily getting rid ofthose circles, but adding in
other circles and communitieswhere performance is maybe less
of A big deal and there's adifferent set of values or
priorities that are emphasizedas important. I think that can

(23:47):
be a helpful sort of first step,and that's hard to do, you know,
because our social circles andour communities are not easy
things to change. They givestability to our lives. They
give us a sensible a sense ofbelonging. But as I said, I
don't think they it's a matterof either or, you know, I think
it's a matter of getting rid ofthose very performance focused
social circles that give a lotof meaning to performance and

(24:08):
reinforce it as something that'sa really big deal. I think it's
more about just adding on otherthings to kind of, I don't know,
diversify where you get youryour sense of meaning and
acceptance and some belonging inlife, if that makes sense, yeah,

Sonya Looney (24:23):
I think that's excellent advice, and it's
difficult, because in at leastWestern culture, everything is
reinforcing a performance basedidentity. Like someone posts on
LinkedIn, like, look at thisthing I did. Look how many likes
I have on social media, evenwhen somebody introduces you,
like, like, Oh, here's Sonia.
She's a world champion mountainbiker. It's like, well, I it's

(24:44):
something I did, but that's notreally who I am. And I don't
even like I struggle with thisbecause I don't like asking
people what they do for work.
And I'll know someone for awhile without asking them that,
because I don't want them todefine themselves based on what
they do. For work, becausethat's defining themselves based
on performance. So when you haveconversations and you even think

(25:05):
about how you're definingyourself, it's almost impossible
to to get away from that.

Ben Walker (25:11):
Yep, and I think that's that's sort of a great
counter argument to exactly whatI just said is that, yes, you
can sort of change communitiesand circles and things, but
ultimately, there is this, andthis is something that I, you
know, think about a lot, andread about a lot, and also think
about how we might be able to dothings differently. There is
this kind of broader sociocultural pressure to be good at

(25:34):
something, you know, and I thinkit's a bit unfair, too. I think
Americans often get a lot of theshoulder. A lot of the blame for
this American culture is oftenheld up as, like, prototypical
of the sort of individualistic,performance, focused, success,
success culture. And while theremight be some truth to that, I

(25:55):
think it's I mean, even youknow, being in New Zealand,
having lived in Australia forfive years I've seen really
similar things, you know, andagain, you see it at the
LinkedIn, the social media. It'ssimilar, you know, people might
say, Well, that's becauseAmerica is such a dominant
cultural force that's kind ofexported its values to other
parts of the world. I thinkthere's really some truth to

(26:16):
that. But ultimately, I do thinkyou see this kind of pressures
to succeed in lots and lots ofdifferent societies around the
world. So it isn't to yourpoint. It isn't an easy thing to
escape. But I do think with alittle bit of you know,
attention and deliberateness, itis possible to kind of find

(26:37):
yourself and move yourself intocircles or environments where
you're exposed to maybe adifferent set of values, where
maybe it's not so much aboutperforming better than others,
but doing better than you didpreviously, you know, so it's
more about self improvement andcompetition and comparison,
things like that. I mean, thatcan be a helpful sort of like

(26:57):
nicotine patch, I think, forperformance addicts, because
there's still something relatedto progress and and and doing
well. But if your referencepoint is yourself, a lot of the
time, that's going to,especially if it's if it's a new
activity you're learning for thefirst time, it's always going to
be a kind of upward slope, youknow, where you're regularly
getting better and better. Iknow in the world of sports, it

(27:19):
can be quite different, right?
Because physicality and thingscan begin to decline. So it
might, might be less helpful ofan approach in those domains.
Yeah, I think that that shiftingsocial, social circles can be
helpful. And then at a more likeindividual level, there's stuff
around, like exposure andResponse Prevention therapy. I

(27:40):
don't know if you've come acrossthat before, but it's like a
form of sort of therapy that'sused particularly with people
who have like obsessivecompulsive disorder and and it's
basically a form of therapywhere you're gradually exposed
to whatever it is that reallytriggers your compulsions to
almost, basically to make youbored of it and desensitize you

(28:00):
to whatever it is. So for peoplewho are sort of obsessive about
performance, I think that lineof therapy and thinking as well
can also be helpful. And, youknow, there's a lot of great
resources about that stuffonline. And it's not necessarily
something, you know, it'ssomething that you can easily
start to sort of build into yourown life and and make it sort of

(28:21):
part of your own routines.
There's different ways of sortof actioning, I suppose that
stuff, but yeah, I think thatcan be really helpful too.
Because ultimately, I think atthe at the root of a lot of the
stuff is often the kind ofobsessiveness about a thing. In

(28:42):
our case, we're talking aboutperformance, achievement,
success, status, those sorts ofthings, yeah,

Sonya Looney (28:50):
like, how you said to spend time? Like, like, look
at your social circle. Lookwhat's being reinforced in your
social circle. And I'm justpersonally thinking about my
life, and it's interesting,because the people that I spend
the most time around, and thatare my closest friends, have
nothing to do with cycling.
Yeah, it's from all thesedifferent areas. Probably it was
not on purpose, but it probablyhas helped me to just have some

(29:12):
diversity in what we talk about,what I think about, how people,
I mean, people still might viewme as like, Oh, you did this.
You do these things, but theyare talking to you for who you
are. Like, when you're walkingaround your neighborhood, it's a
different vibe than if you'rewalking around at, like, maybe a
conference or at a race or like,whatever people know you for.

Ben Walker (29:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think it's like, I alwaysthink that there is a bit of a
bit of a myth, or a sort of asort of commonly accepted belief
amongst amongst people, that inorder to succeed, you need to

(29:53):
care a lot about success, andthe more you. Care about
succeeding, the more likely youare to succeed. And I don't
think that's actually true. Ithink definitely there needs to
be a degree of caring aboutsucceeding. It also, I guess,
depends on what you define assuccess, to a degree. But I
don't think the link betweencaring about success and

(30:18):
actually succeeding is as strongas most people think it is. And
I think too, like, you know,some of the research that's on
goal orientation and thedifferent goals people can set
themselves is kind of, I think,pointed to the fact that
actually caring about successand caring about your

(30:38):
performance can can backfiremore than it can help you in a
lot of situations. So sometimes,to people realizing that that
actually to be successful, youdon't necessarily have to care a
lot about being successful, thatcan kind of help as well. And to
know that there is, there is alot of good evidence that would,

(31:01):
I would say, support that point.
Sometimes that can be a sort ofpowerful realization, because
people might have a very strongassociation between those two
things that they sort of need towind back and and weaken in a
way that's kind

Sonya Looney (31:18):
of like defining success as a needed outcome,
which you may or may not havecontrol over, and if you're
always focused on some outcome,then you're going to be tight.
You're going to be reallyfocusing on yourself too much,
and you're going to forget whyyou're doing something in the
first place, and you're probablynot going to be as focused on
the task at hand. You're goingto be focused on how am I doing

(31:40):
instead of what am I doing?

Ben Walker (31:43):
That's it, absolutely. And there's all this
sort of research too. And Ithink I'm seeing sort of popular
books coming out that kind ofget at this point as well, about
returning to viewing ouractivities, our work, even our
sports, as crafts, you know, andlooking at them as things that
we do because they're enjoyableand we like the process as

(32:06):
opposed to the outcome. I thinkthat ultimately is probably a
more, I mean, that can, I guess,has it has its own dark side
sometimes, but ultimately, Ithink it's probably a lot more
sustainable and probablyrewarding to relate to the
things you do, more as a craftthan just as a another vehicle

(32:28):
for achievements and, you know,outcomes. I think that that
shift in mindset can be, likeyou say, really helpful as well
taking attention off the selfand more on the, you know, the
actual doing that leads to theoutcome.

Sonya Looney (32:46):
Yeah, I love, kind of just going deep into these
things. So if you're and then,and then you can become too
focused on the doing that youstart over doing. And I've
thought about, you know, CarolDweck work a lot on fixing
growth mindset, and I probablyam taking it out of context
here, but like, if you'refocused on the effort, then the
effort becomes the outcome,almost it's like, well, I'm I'm

(33:07):
putting in the maximum amount ofeffort at all times, and now
you're overworking. The type ofwork you're producing isn't very
good, and you're just burningyourself out.

Ben Walker (33:16):
Yeah, and I think again, that is something that
I've heard a lot from people inthose jobs where performance is
really hard to define and it'sunclear. I think in those sort
of jobs, there is this becauseperformance is so kind of
invisible and hard to put yourfinger on, a lot of people just
revert to effort to figure outhow well they're doing. And so

(33:40):
this is where you get peopleworking. You know, 80 hour
weeks, just crazy hours, becauseit makes them feel successful,
because they don't really haveany kind of, like, clear or
objective measure. Butultimately, I mean, maybe there
is, there is achievementhappening in there, but the long
term consequences, I think weknow from from evidence on work,

(34:02):
Ill ism and burnout and thingsthe long term consequences are
usually not great. But yeah, itis very tempting, I think,
especially in context whereperformance is ever defined, to
revert to effort as you're sortof, you know, a proxy for
performance and achievement. Butyeah, it's a slippery slope,

Sonya Looney (34:23):
like the effort is not a proxy for performance. I
tell myself that sometimes, howdo things like perfectionism,
where it's which ischaracterized by excessive
striving and nothing ever beingenough, or imposter phenomena
where people can't internalizetheir success, even if they're

(34:44):
doing well and they're worriedabout other what other people
think about them, like, how doesall that play under the umbrella
of a performance based identity?

Ben Walker (34:52):
So I think that that perfectionism stuff, usually
people talk about perfectionismas a kind of trait, like an
individual difference. Stat isreasonably stable throughout
people's adult lives. And Ithink that is absolutely those
kind of traits, whether it'sperfectionism, whether it's, you
know, need for achievement,whether it's conscientiousness,

(35:16):
one of the sort of big fivetraits people might have heard
about, I think all of those kindof traits and that that
personality sort of profile as awhole, is probably a lot more
just, just inherently morelikely to develop, I think these
kind of performance basedidentities, well, sorry, I
should actually check myselfthere. I think they're a lot

(35:38):
more likely to attach personalmeanings to performance, where
they might struggle is withdeveloping the label. Part of
it, the self knowledge, part ofit, because that you know
something like perfectionism,nothing is ever good enough,
right? You're trying to be, ifyou're trying to be the perfect

(35:59):
performer, that that's probablya destination you're never
really going to going to get to.
Nevertheless, the torment ofthat, I think, is that
performance is so important toyou. It's a bit like that thing
of the, you know, the donkeywith the carrot on the stick in
front of them, always walkingtowards it, but never really
getting the satisfaction ofeating it. I think it's a
similar thing when it comes toperfectionists and these sort of

(36:20):
identities,

Sonya Looney (36:24):
and then the donkey gets the carrot and is
like, this, carrot isn't goodenough. It's not the perfect
crunchiness.

Ben Walker (36:31):
Sometimes that happens too, right? People do
get it, but it's fleeting andmomentary and ultimately, maybe
disappointing. So yeah, I thinkall of that sort of those kind
of traits can definitely wouldbe a they're sort of like in
research terms, we'd say they'repart of the nomological network,
which is basically just sayingthe factors that move together,

(36:53):
that hang out with performancebased identities, you know,
they're they're things that livein the same neighborhood as one
another. So you tend to seethem, a lot happening together,
basically. And then withimposter syndrome, it's an
interesting one, because I thinkyou know, if I frame that in

(37:13):
this, this performance basedidentity language, imposter
syndrome is really a failure todevelop a performance based
identity where one is reallyactually warranted, you know,
so, so where it would actuallymake sense to have some sort of
identity as being good at whatyou do. But it's not happening

(37:35):
for whatever reason, right? Ithink that is ultimately sort of
the root of imposter syndrome,and then people, because of
that, because they haven'tinternalized their success, as
they say, you have thesefeelings of feeling like a fraud
and like you're not good enough,and that you're going to be
found out, and all that kind ofstuff. So yeah, I think again,

(37:55):
the closely related ideas, and Ithink that that performance
based identity thing kind ofjust, just helps to it helps to
give a way of explaining, Iguess, why that happens. You
know, why we have impostersyndrome? And, you know, there
can be lots of reasons whypeople don't develop performance

(38:16):
based identities. Part of itmight be something like
perfectionism, where even ifthey are really good, they're
not perfect, and because theirideal self is someone who's, you
know, the perfect performer,they they never really like,
feel like they can actuallyclaim that identity, you know.
And on the one hand, I mean, youkind of think about, you know, I

(38:37):
think about athletes like, likeCoby Bryant, for example, I
think was really infamous forhaving that kind of mentality.
You know, it can, from onestandpoint, I think it can be
something that creates a sort ofperpetual drive to be better and
improve and succeed. And even ifyou never really get there,
you're still constantly gettingbetter. So I think it can have

(38:58):
that sort of productive outcome,but then also the the other side
of that coin is all the thingswe've talked about around sort
of obsessiveness andworkitalism, burnout and so on.

Sonya Looney (39:10):
It almost sounds like how you define success. It
is kind of a key indicator of ifa performance based identity is
harmful or hurtful, or harmfulor helpful to you, like, yeah,
if you're, if your success is anoutcome, then you're, you're not
going to feel satisfied, andit's going to be not good for

Ben Walker (39:28):
you. Yeah, totally.
I think it's a, it's a reallyvalid point if your ideal self
is to be the best at whatever,you know, the thing is, in the
world that is a really, reallyit's the bullseye on the the
target, you know, it's a reallynarrow thing to hit. The upside
of that can be like, you know,like we talked about more

(39:52):
motivation, sort of perpetualdesire to be better. But the
downside is you never really getany satisfaction. Actually.
Getting there. So having abroader sort of ideal self or
target might be, you know, lesshelpful for motivation, but
maybe more helpful in terms of,just like, general life
satisfaction and well being andhappiness. You know, yeah, I'm

(40:13):
not the best, but I'm reasonablygood, and that's kind of enough
for me. It's this great bookI've been reading by an author
called Avraham Alpe. I think hisname is, and it's called the
good enough not the good enoughlife. And he basically makes
this argument, not just forindividuals, but for how we

(40:36):
think about community, societiesas a whole, that that may be
good enough should be the sortof goal that we idealize and set
as our central goal, as opposedto perpetual growth or perpetual
success. You know, maybe goodenough is good enough as
something to strive for, yeah,

Sonya Looney (41:01):
something that I've been kind of arguing for
the last couple of years is howgrowth can't be the only goal,
because with everything, even ifyou're pursuing mastery, there
are very long plateaus and maybeplateaus where you can't even
measure the improvement, becauseyou've been at it for so long.

Ben Walker (41:18):
Yeah, yeah. I think that's a great point. And there
does seem to, you know, thereneeds to be, I think, something
beyond just the superficialstuff, you know, the indicators,
the observable outcomes andachievements, that's it's
guiding whatever it is you'redoing. So, yeah, I really

Sonya Looney (41:37):
would agree with that. I think that comes right
back to what you were sayingabout the people you surround
yourself with, and being aperson who can impact other
people that so it's not justabout you or growing or being
you know the best at something,and this is what my work has
been. It's how do myaccomplishments impact others
and and how can that bebeneficial to my satisfaction

(42:01):
Well, being past how good I amat something?

Ben Walker (42:05):
Yeah, totally. And I think, you know, sometimes too,
you can, kind of, you can kindof make that if the activity
that you're setting your mind tois something that is going to to
benefit others, you can kind ofmake that work, I think, with a
performance based identity, youknow. Because if the outcome, if

(42:26):
good performance for you isseeing, you know, like I think
about my job and as a teacher,good performance for me is
seeing an idea click with astudent and seeing them just
push to think that next leveldeeper about whatever it is. The
topic is, you know, and so forme, if that's, that's my idea of
success, then caring a lot aboutthat kind of works, because

(42:49):
there's a broader benefit beyondme. And I think that's kind of
what you're saying, right,

Sonya Looney (42:54):
exactly. And I'll bring the athletic context into
it, like, maybe one of yourgoals is to be the best that you
can be at a sport, but in doingso, you will impact others like
you're setting an example forother people, you're role
modeling. And so being on thelookout for how that's actually
impacting other people, insteadof how good am I doing, that can
bring an entire other level ofsatisfaction. Yeah,

Ben Walker (43:17):
that's a really good example, and it's essentially, I
think the the shift isperformances becomes a means to
an end there, right? It's notperformance as an end in itself,
just because succeeding isinherently good. It's, it's
shifting from seeing performanceas a way to get to some broader,

(43:39):
like you said, some broaderoutcome, whether it's helping
others, whether it's rolemodeling, inspiration, whatever
it is. So, yeah, I think, Ithink there's a lot to do that,
you know, and taking thatzooming out, and taking that
broader perspective on, why isit that I'm actually doing this
and trying to be good at this?
What is the ultimate sort of endgoal? There's a lot of value to
to engaging in that kind ofreflection. Yeah,

Sonya Looney (44:04):
something that I'm very interested in is just our
self narratives and how thatchanges, how we view the world,
how we view ourselves. So in thecontext of performance, the
things that you are saying toyourself, the way that you're
defining success, the way thatyou're that you're pursuing
things, am I looking inward? AmI looking outward? Am I looking
am I comparing myself to othersconstantly? Like all of those

(44:27):
things play such a key role. Andwhat is underneath all that is
how well you know yourself, howaware am I of the things I'm
even telling myself,

Ben Walker (44:36):
yeah, yeah, I totally agree with it. It's
something too, like just takingmy my academic hat still kind of
on, but taking it off for asecond, I think, like this year,
I've been on sabbatical, so I'vesort of been on lighter duties.
I haven't had to do as muchteaching and sort of service
stuff around the university.
And, you know, I've been workingas an academic now for. For six

(44:58):
years since finishing my PhD,and this was like the first year
where, because I had theirbreathing room, I actually felt
like I could think for a second.
I could pause and be like, Holdon. What's important to me
again? Like, why am I doing thisresearch project and this one

(45:18):
and this one, and why am Iteaching the course in this way,
and it was actually been reallyhelpful to just, you know, do a
bit of what you're saying, zoomout, re, you know, get back in
touch with, like, the purpose ofthe work, the purpose of of
striving to have theseaccomplishments and things and
sort of, you know, prioritizegoals and values and how those

(45:44):
two things relate to one anotherfor the next few years. And I
think the reason I sort of sharethat experience is because I
think a lot of the time, a lotof us just don't have the space,
the time or energy to do that,like I didn't for the last six
years this has been that, like Isaid, the first year, where I've
really felt able to do that. Sosometimes, you know, people

(46:06):
might not be able to connectthose dots or take their broader
perspective and zoom out a bituntil they just, like, take a
bit of a break, you know, and itmight need to be, like, in my
case, it needed to be quite along break, I think, which is
not always ideal, because noteveryone can take a sabbatical
or take leave from whatever itis that they're doing, but it

(46:27):
can be helpful for just thatreset on perspective, values,
goals and outcomes.

Sonya Looney (46:35):
Yeah. I mean, I'm so glad that you're having that
experience and that you're ableto connect with the purpose
behind why you're doing thesethings, and also, for some
people, it's it's too scary totake a break from. I'll give a
personal example. So you know,I've been a pro mound biker for
a very long time, since 2006 andI'm questioning why I'm racing

(46:57):
still. And I've been questioningfor years making sure that I'm
not doing it because it'ssomething I've always done, or
I'm too afraid to not callafraid to not call myself a pro
mountain biker. And I'm focusingnow on trail running, which is,
you know, it's still likeperformance and, you know,
running and stuff like that. ButI had to really work for,
actually, a couple of years ofletting go, of being brave

(47:18):
enough to say it's okay for meto let go of this part of my
identity and just take a breakfrom it. And so there's lots of
people listening, probably thatare thinking like, I don't I
don't know how to step away andtake a break to give myself
breathing room, because I don'tknow who I am if I do that and
I'm too afraid to face myself.
So like, how can people facethemselves?

Ben Walker (47:40):
Well, I think in your story, I heard something
that I think is a really keypoint, which is having something
else to kind of transition youout of, you know, into you know,
whatever the next destination,or what your future self might
look like. I think the I thinkthe great insights come out of

(48:00):
that story as having somethingto go to, you know. So if you're
going to let go of an identity,have another identity, or set of
identities, that you can kind ofgo to, even if they're still in
the early stages, in theirinfancy, something else that
gives your life purpose,structure, meaning, I think is

(48:23):
really important. I mean, yousee this all the time too, with
with pro athletes when they'reforced to retire, you know, so
if they have some sort of injuryor something happens, and
usually it is injury that forcesthem to give up sport, and they
haven't had a chance to do anykind of planning or setting up

(48:46):
what the next chapter lookslike. That's where you start to
get all of those sorts ofproblems around mental health
and identity crises and thingslike that. So I think the more
that people can sort of havethat foresight and think about,
okay, what's something I cankind of put there to lead me
into the next chapter of my lifeand my sort of myself more

(49:10):
broadly, I think is reallyhelpful. Yeah, it

Sonya Looney (49:14):
makes me think of like just what we were talking
about, like self complexity,having a diversified identity,
so you could do lots ofdifferent things. And even if
you are really focused on onething, like, there's still other
parts of you as a human that youcan express those interests. And
part two to that is, if you areshifting to something else,
like, you know, personally, it'slike, okay, trail running. And

(49:36):
then also a career inpsychology, which I'm really
enjoying, that it's very fun andvery interesting when you're
kind of transitioning thepressure, in some ways, is way
less like if I show up, forexample, to a running race, like
nobody knows who I am there,there's like, nobody cares how I
do like, all that stuff makes itso much easier than if I go to

(49:58):
another bike race and it's like.
Even if I just get on my bike,and there's all the thought
processes that I have to, youknow, go through of like, Well,
how am I feeling today? Whatdoes this mean, you know, and
all the mental skills I have toemploy to not let those become a
story. Yeah,

Ben Walker (50:13):
absolutely right.
And I think one of the thingsthat you kind of hinting at
there is, I think it's importantto to carve out at least one
thing in your life that's nonevaluative. So something in your
life where it is really hard toideally not something like your

(50:35):
work that you have to do a lotof. But you know, whether it's a
hobby or a sport, somethingwhere it's hard to figure out
how well you're doing, or it'shard to see how well you're
doing relative to others. Like,I think for me, the example of
that I have in my life is kindof like gardening, like doing
things in our garden, around thehouse, and I know that there's,

(50:58):
like, you know, there's,there's, there's a gardening
community on Instagram and ticktock and and YouTube. And if I
wanted to, I could see, like,how crappy a gardener I am
relative to those people. Butthe point is, you know, you have
to go out of your way to kind ofto make that connection. So for
me, it's just something that Ilove doing. The activity is a

(51:18):
lot of fun. It's nice to beoutside. You know? It's nice to
see things grow, in some cases,bear fruit or veggies or
whatever it is. So I know I'mnot necessarily the greatest
gardener, but it's for me. It'sa really, like, a non evaluative
activity, like, I don't reallycare about how good I am at it.
It's more just something I do,you know, for the for the sake

(51:41):
of doing, because doing itbrings me a sort of a sense of
joy and satisfaction. So I thinkas a, maybe as a reasonably
simple thing people can do aswell, if they really performance
inclined and inclined to care alot about that, deliberately
trying to carve out something,some kind of hobby or or
activity in life that that'sless evaluative in nature.

Sonya Looney (52:07):
I'm just smiling because in my like, I've talked
about my research a little biton this podcast, but I developed
a framework for meaningfulaccomplishment through a
qualitative study that I did,and one of the key points for
the type of meaningfulaccomplishment that gave you the
greatest type of self orgreatest type of satisfaction,

(52:27):
was because you could notmeasure it. It was or it was
very difficult to measure. Andthe fact that it was difficult,
especially for perfectionists,who are always trying to
measure, and say, Oh, this isgood enough or not good enough.
When you can't measuresomething, or if you can't
evaluate it, then it becomesabout the thing. It doesn't
become about the measurement.

Ben Walker (52:46):
Yeah, I think that's, I mean, I think it's
definitely true when it's sortof, it's a lower stakes activity
in the context of your life, youknow. So for me, it's something
like gardening, and for otherpeople, it might be a sort of a
sport they do just as a bit of ahobby, or different forms of
exercise and fitness can be likethat for people. And I think,

(53:09):
though, going back to what Isaid a little bit earlier, if
you have that in something thatis kind of a takes up a lot of
time and is really central toyour life, you can get that kind
of morphing into judging byeffort, you know? So because the
measures not there of outcomesor achievement, then you get

(53:30):
that slipping into judging basedon how much, how much effort Am
I putting into it. So I guessthe lesson there is when people
are trying to find these sort ofnon evaluative hobbies or
activities in their lives,avoid, trying to avoid that trap
of slipping into thinking, Oh,well, you know, I need to be, if
I want to be a successfulgardener, then maybe I should be

(53:51):
spending, you know, every dayafter, you know, like in the
middle of the night, like it's,I mean, it's a bit of a crazy
example, but that kind of justillustrates the point. You know,
that sometimes the lack ofmeasurement, sometimes people
will invent another measurementthat can give them grief. So,

(54:12):
yeah, can sometimes, you know,go it can go both ways, I think,
depending on how people kind ofapproach it.

Sonya Looney (54:19):
Yeah. I mean, we've covered how complex a
performance based identity isand how difficult it is to
untangle from that. If it'ssomething that that is causing
issues, and for some people, itisn't causing issues, is there
anything else that you want toto add before we have to sign
off here?

Ben Walker (54:37):
I don't think so.
Other than just to like, thefact that you use the word
complexity. You know, I thinkthese things performance based
identities and related topicslike worker holism and
perfectionism, I think they are,one thing I've learned from
researching these kind of thingsfor the last almost 10 years, I
suppose, is that they arereally. Complicated. You know,

(54:59):
they are very dependent on theperson and their context and
their communities and all thesesorts of things. And so I'm
generally, yeah, very all ofthat has had the effect of
making me quite skeptical ofpeople who offer really
simplistic prescriptions for howto, you know, it's like, it's,
it's hard to take that stuffseriously when you've seen from

(55:25):
all of these different studiesjust how complex these topics
are. And I think that, initself, is a good insight for
people who might be strugglingwith these things, to realize
like they are, they are complexthings. There's, a lot of moving
parts and but that doesn't meanthat you can't do anything about
it. It just probably requires,you know, a range of different

(55:49):
kind of interventions andapproaches. And it also probably
means that you've got to goyou've got to go easy on
yourself, because they are quitecomplex topics and sort of
psychological things. Having thekind of relationship you want
with performance or achievementisn't going to happen overnight.

(56:12):
You know, it's going to take along time to craft it. Even
myself, as someone who studiesthese things, I'm constantly
still reflecting on and tryingto sort of tinker with my own
mental relationship, with mysort of work and my performance.
So, yeah, I think it's, it'sgood for people to realize these

(56:33):
things are complicated, but itdoesn't mean that they can't do
things, I think, to to nudgethemselves more to having the
kind of mental relationshipperformance that they want to
have.

Sonya Looney (56:46):
Yeah, and I think that you make a good point that
it's not about making it goaway, and you probably won't
ever make it go away. It's howyou relate to it and how you
manage it. And that part is verycomplicated.

Ben Walker (57:00):
Yeah, it's complicated, but, you know,
there's things you can do. Imean, we've talked about some
things today. There's thingspeople can do. And I think it
is, yeah, like you say, a bit ofa bit of self acceptance, like,
if you're a perfectionist,you're probably never gonna
really stop being aperfectionist. It's, it's

(57:21):
something that's that's areasonably stable trait, but we
can become a lot more aware ofthose traits and how to, like
said, sort of manage theirimpact on our lives and our
happiness, I guess at the end ofthe day,

Sonya Looney (57:35):
well, thank you so much for being so generous with
your time and for coming on thepodcast. And where can people
find your papers and your work?

Ben Walker (57:44):
So if they're interested in research stuff and
just hearing more about what Ido, they can go to Ben Walker,
hyphen, phd.com, and so there'sa little blurb about the
different things I've been doingon there. And I think on there
too, there's a LinkedIn too. Ifyou're interested in sort of the
hardcore research stuff, there'sa link to my Google Scholar

(58:06):
page. And if they just want toconnect and talk more, my email
address and my LinkedIn link ison there as well.

Sonya Looney (58:15):
Thanks so much for coming on the show. This was
such a treat.

Ben Walker (58:19):
No problem. Thanks so much for having me.

Sonya Looney (58:22):
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of
grow the good I'm so excitedthat you are here, that you have
been with us through thistransition from the Sonya Looney
show to grow the good podcast,and we have some amazing guests
lined up. If you are trying toremember what our format was, we
do three episodes a month. We doone interview with a guest. We

(58:42):
do one moving meditation from meand one solo episode from me. On
the insides of performance, wellbeing and how to grow the good.
If you like the show, pleasedon't forget to follow us, or,
even better, leave us a fivestar review as that helps the
show find others. We really aretrying to build a tailwind and
some momentum with this show,because these guests have such

(59:03):
important insights that we wantto share with the world to help
it be better, to help peoplestrive from a healthy place. As
always, I'm with you on thisjourney of growth adventure and
our mission to be better, andI'll see you right back here
next week. You