October 14, 2025 • 57 mins
We all experience and process the world differently... and that’s what makes our brains so incredible.
In this episode, our hosts chat all things neurodiversity; unpacking what it means to be neurodivergent, why masking is so common, and the unique strengths that come with thinking differently.
They share reflections, stories, and laughs as they explore how neurodivergence shapes day-to-day life, from social expectations to those brain moments we can all relate to.
headspace resources:
headspace Centres – find your local service
headspace Work & Study – free, inclusive career and study support
Neurodivergent Resources:
Reframing Autism – Education, advocacy and community: https://reframingautism.org.au/
ADHD Australia – Awareness and practical support: https://www.adhdaustralia.org.au/
Amaze – Autism support and inclusion resources: https://www.amaze.org.au/
Apps for executive functioning skills
The Year I Met My Brain – Matilda Boseley
The ADHD Brain Buddy – Matilda Boseley
Colour Me Neurospicy
Watch our video podcast now on YouTube or via Spotify, Apple Podcasts or your favourite podcast platform.
This episode was created by Adam (headspace sessions podcast content developer), Ally (Senior Community Engagement Officer, headspace Adelaide), Santi (headspace sessions co-host), Beth (headspace sessions co-host), Jaime (headspace sessions podcast content developer) and Ben (headspace sessions co-host).
To learn more about headspace centres, visit: https://headspace.org.au/ or connect with your local headspace centre on social media.
Led by headspace Adelaide, in partnership with headspace Edinburgh North, headspace Marion, headspace Onkaparinga and Sonder. The podcast project is brought to you by our centre’s Youth Reference Groups. It is a headspace Adelaide Youth Reference Group initiative.
Produced by Shane (Youth Services Community Engagement Team Leader, Sonder) and Ally (Senior Community Engagement Officer, headspace Adelaide), recorded and edited by Rory at Podbooth Studios, Adelaide.
Recorded on Kaurna Country. Acknowledgment of country voiced by Yanni (Aboriginal Peer Support Worker, headspace Adelaide).
If you or someone you know is in need of crisis or suicide prevention support, please contact:
Lifeline on 13 11 14 (Australia)
Kids Helpline on 1800 55 1800 (Australia)
Disclaimer: Views and opinions expressed in this podcast are from young people and staff involved at Sonder’s headspace centres, or are guests invited to be interviewed. Information provided should not be taken as clinical advice.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Hi, my name's Yanni. I'm an Aboriginal peer support
worker at Headspace Adelaide. I'd like to acknowledge that the
land we operate from and a meeting on right now is the land
of the Ghana people. I pay my respects to their
Elders, past, present and future, and acknowledge
Headspace's commitment to makinga positive contribution to young
people who are Aboriginal. Hello and welcome back to Head
(00:31):
Safe Sessions podcast for another really exciting episode.
Once again, I am joined by a wonderful crew of Co hosts.
My name's Ali, and shall we hearfrom who's joining us today?
I'm Jamie. I'm Beth.
I'm Santi. I'm Benjamin.
(00:53):
Full crew today -1 minus our script developer for this
episode, Adam, but we know he's listening somewhere.
He's listening somewhere. And we're really thankful.
We're really thankful for him writing this very special
episode for us today. We're going to be chatting all
things neurodiversity. This episode is going to be
(01:19):
adjacent to a really informativeepisode that comes next.
But today we're gonna be a get abit vulnerable.
We're gonna get a bit real. We're gonna talk about our own
personal experiences with neurodivergence and what it
means for us. Before we get into all of that
good content, though, we once again have an awesome
icebreaker. And this one, it's pretty fun
(01:41):
and it's what something your brain does that makes you laugh.
Maybe roll your eyes or just go classic me.
I always used to laugh about my sister telling Jess stories.
Her name's Jess, and they were. Jess Stories.
Jess Stories. Like Jess telling Jess stories
so. They always said chess.
No, Jess. Like that's funny chess.
(02:03):
Stories they would be they wouldjust go on and on and you would
never get to the point right Andthen it would take like 3
different roads and all these different lane ways.
And like you, it was, it was a just story, like, you know, and
everyone in our family would laugh about it.
And then I realized that I do ittoo.
And I was. Like Beth stories?
Yeah, I was like, oh, I've been blaming her for this and I get
(02:26):
annoyed at her for it, but I do the exact same thing.
Peak modelling there. That just somehow reminded me of
the one I hate the most. I think so when I when I play
games like I, I tend to play on my Xbox, but I'm sitting on the
couch and I always forget. It happens until someone gently
reminds me. But I pretty much almost do a
(02:47):
running commentary of what I'm doing as if I'm like streaming.
But I've never streamed in my life before.
Like ever since I was a kid there, there was like there was
an audience, but the audience isn't there.
So it's like it, it's so annoying.
I can imagine it's like the mostfrustrating thing on the planet
to be even near me when it's hanging because sometimes I just
get so like involved in what I'mdoing.
(03:07):
I'm like, Oh no. What's that guy do it like you
don't do that during movies too do.
You. No, no, no, no, no, no.
I am. I am.
That's that's the thing that I think annoys me about it.
When I'm in the movies, like especially in the cinema, I'm
like, is that your phone? Are you checking your messages
right now on the couch? But then it's like the second
I'm playing games, I'm. Like look at that guy over.
There isn't he funny heart? No one's listening.
(03:28):
It's like, yeah, that's fun. I think for me it's if we go
into cinema and people just giveme like so many questions like
oh, I'm walking the movie. I'm like Oh my God, just just
don't. I'll answer all your questions
after the movie, but not I just does not work for me.
No, you're in your zone, Yeah. I'm that person.
(03:50):
I'm very funny. I'm not going to the movie.
And also like, shaking when theycan't, like, sit still.
Yeah. And they're right, right next,
man. Just like shaking the entire
role. And it's like.
Oh, you don't like other people shaking?
I thought you meant yourself. I'm.
I'm fine. Like, I'd sit and watch the
movie, right? I won't move at all.
There could just be one position.
(04:11):
Do you mean specifically shakingat the movies or like just
specifically at the movies? Or is it just anyone next to
you? Like.
Right now, next to you. Specifically at the movies,
because it's because they're shaking the entire row and it's
like the seats are also vibrating back.
What's that happening? And I see the next person just
shaking their legs. It's like, Oh my God.
(04:32):
Oh, interesting, interesting. Cribe, what about you?
Jamie, I think for me is something that my brain does is
like, I'll go to a social event and I will just like, go, haha,
like, just go absolutely socially crazy.
And then within about 10 minutes, I'm like, yeah, about
time to go home now. I just wish I had the ability to
(04:54):
spread out my social energies and it just being like, so
excited to go and then like, social battery's dead in like 10
minutes. Yeah.
And like, even my friends have arunning joke where it's like,
Jamie, you can't say in 20 minutes that your social
battery's dead. I'm like, yeah, OK.
They've figured out your how. About you.
(05:14):
Mine is I've come to learn over my 25 incredible years of life
that I can't write things down on like physical pieces of
paper. As good as my intentions are, in
an hour, whatever, I don't know where that piece of paper is.
It's just gone. It's literally evaporated into
(05:37):
thin air. I can be like, yeah, I really
need to write this down. I really need to put it in a
safe space. Where is that safe place?
I have too many safe places. And then I'm like, but what safe
place did I think I was putting it in at the time?
And I just, yeah, I lose track of them so I can't write things
down. I need a, I need to put things
(05:59):
in like my phone and have it in like a digital way because
otherwise I'm just going to forget about it.
So it's, it's really that like object Permian for me.
Yeah, yeah. Yes I write like 5 lists over
and over again. Like consistently.
I'll write a list, it has all the exact same thing on it.
I'll like RIP it out if it's oneword wrong and I'll like write
it again. So sorry to all the trees, they
are just being cut. Oh no, I I get you.
(06:21):
I have like 10 different notebooks for like just
different topics of my life. So it's it's pretty bad, but
yeah, that's mine. Thank you everybody for sharing
fun little moments that our brain does.
This leads really nicely into our first topic of the pod
today, which is what neurodivergence means to us.
(06:46):
You listening, you may have probably heard the word
neurodivergence or neurodiversity or
neurodivergent. However, the word has come
across to you in your life. You've probably heard about it a
lot recently, perhaps at school from people in your life, or
perhaps online on TikTok and Instagram.
(07:07):
But what does it actually mean? So neurodivergence can refer to
the idea that some people's brains just function in ways
that may be considered typical, or what we call neurotypical.
So these differences can affect how a person thinks, learns,
(07:27):
maybe processes new information,communicates, or just in general
experiences. The world that we live in,
Simply put, everybody's brain works very differently.
We all have a very different brain on this table.
You guys listening, listening probably have your own gripes
that you came up with while we were chat, chatting about ours.
(07:48):
Some of us might hyper focus forthings on ours.
Some of us might not be able to write things down on pieces of
paper. Whatever it might be, we're all
different and I think it's important to know it's not
weird, it's just different. Neurodivergence can include
things like autism, ADHD, dyslexia.
(08:11):
There are so many different terms that fit under that
umbrella, but basically it is just a way of thinking or
processing that doesn't fit thattypical mold.
I'm really eager to hear from you guys what your first
experience with the term neurodivergence was.
Maybe what you thought it meant at the time that you first heard
(08:33):
of it, or maybe how you noticed it in yourself or showing up in
others. I feel like the first, like, way
I heard neurodivergence was onlythat like that autism is only
thing that can fall under it. So I think as I got older, it's
been interesting to learn that people's brains work in all
(08:54):
different ways, not just yeah, limited to that.
So yeah. Yeah, I think my first time sort
of hearing about neurodivergencewas honestly I'd say it would,
it would be just before the sortof 2020 started.
I think that the term to me was relatively new.
(09:14):
I had what I would consider a decent understanding of, you
know, autism and ADHD and dyslexia, just either through,
you know, people I knew or my own understandings.
But the actual term itself, I found I hadn't familiarized
myself with it for quite a while.
For me, seeing it in myself is abit of a weird experience
because for me, I was, I was only diagnosed in sort of like
(09:38):
2022, roughly 2023 maybe even. But I grew up with thinking a
bunch of things, which is eithernormal or I just had a couple of
quirks here and there. And then sort of I had enough
different people in my life sortof emphasizing to me, hey,
that's not how most people, you know, go about that or perceive
(09:59):
that. That's not, you know, quite the
same. Not in like a negative way or
anything. But then it sort of prompted me
to actually look into it becauseI think I didn't, I didn't fit
the very sort of stereotypical child sort of behavioral
manifestations of neurodivergence where, you know,
you've got that stereotype that they're disruptive or, you know,
they're really loud and not listening to teachers in
(10:20):
classroom sort of thing. I was very sort of enthusiastic
at school and stuff like that. So I think I'd just gone under
the radar for the typical stuff,and I think that's why it was a
bit more complex for me at least, yeah.
I can relate to that in terms ofmy first kind of experience with
the term was those extreme versions of what ADHD or autism
(10:42):
can look like, or the really stigmatized versions.
I think my first time that I heard about ADHD was, you know,
the, the disruptive little boys in class that couldn't focus or
their, the behaviour wasn't good.
And that's, that came to be whatmy understanding was of ADHD.
(11:02):
So as I grew up and maybe I started noticing little things
about myself, I was like, well, there's no way that I could
possibly be ADHD or autistic because like, I don't, I'm not
disruptive like those little boys in class or, you know, I
don't have those same traits. So it took a lot of unlearning
for me to personally, yeah, be able to relate to that.
(11:26):
For me, it was when I first did my diploma in forensic
psychology. But you know you there were
times when terms like ADHD, autism was just thrown out.
But like I just knew it as like a term rather than what it
actually meant in terms of my own experience.
(11:48):
I wouldn't say I'm new to diversion, but then I haven't
been tested for it, but I'd say I'm hyperactive.
I can't like even when I was a kid, I couldn't stay still.
Like parents would get teachers calling saying hey, he can't
stay still like when I was in myyounger years even now like I
that's exactly why I do sports is because I need to keep doing
(12:12):
something. Even at work it's I can't, I
can't just stay in still. I need to keep walking.
I need to like move, do something.
But yeah. I love that you found an outlet
for that, that you you notice yourself having maybe more
energy than other people do. And you're like, hey, well,
let's put this energy somewhere.Let's go.
That's I. Think it's more my mum that to
(12:35):
figure that out because and evennow I just start checking my
leg. It's even though I don't like it
at cinemas, I was. Like, well, isn't that?
Your friend. But that's in cinemas.
But like at a social setting, ifI feel like OK, it just comes on
and it's sitting still. It's not working for me, but
(12:55):
yeah. Well, shout out to Mum for
noticing. I know you're watching.
Oh yeah, she is. I think so.
Neurodivergence, the word itselfand neurodiversity, I didn't
really hear much of that until recently.
In the recent years that and that I've been working with my
(13:16):
psychologist in particular, likeshe's got pictures on her walls
and stuff of different things and like a cloud that has
neurodivergence, like all the different sort of disorders that
sit under that and stuff. And I think that's when I first
kind of focused on the word neurodivergence.
But I think I've always been aware of ADHD, autism and all of
(13:37):
those things. I went to a small country
primary school and we had very noticeably affected individuals
with autism and it was quite obvious and they would have
extra support and stuff in classas well.
ADHD was one of those things that was like the hyperactive
(13:58):
boys. I never really heard of any
females as I was growing up. Having it like that was not
something that was ever, you know, talked about noticed for
me. I always felt different and I
always felt like something wasn't quite right.
And it took a long time for me to get assistance with that.
(14:20):
And I think once I did, I then found out, Oh, okay.
Well, I've heard of now this term neurodivergence.
Well, that makes so much more sense.
A firm employee. It was a firm.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that.
Yeah, there's obviously so much that we've heard about
(14:41):
neurodivergence and our own experiences of what that meant
to us the first time we came across it.
What's one thing, maybe in particular, one myth that we've
heard about neurodiversity that maybe doesn't sit with us very
well? And I can think of a million in
my mind, and I see so many of you nodding.
(15:02):
Ben, what's on your mind? I think the one that sort of
really gets on my nerves becauseit's not a myth per SE, but it's
just a misunderstanding of like syndrome where it's sort of like
there's this perception that every neurodivergent person is
going to be like brilliant at something.
And it's sort of like, you know,you've got like shows like the
Good Doctor and stuff like that where it's like, you know, it's
(15:24):
just every representation of, ofneurodiversity in a lot of sort
of media is like, you know, Sheldon Cooper type thing where
it's like, you know, absolutely brilliant, like astrophysicist
sort of thing. Where it's, and yes, there are,
there are going to be things that neurodiverse people are
really good at, but it's not that, you know, every
neurodivergent person you meet is just like this hidden genius
(15:47):
that's really socially weird sort of thing.
Because I think that's the general perception of it where
it's sort of a lot less stable is probably the way I'd word it
in terms of how you'd actually live with neurodivergence in
your everyday life compared to the way it's presented.
Yeah. I think for me, it's
particularly with ADHD, mainly because it's like personal, but
(16:10):
being a female, no one ever talks about how that is they and
even just in general, they usually focus on the impulsivity
and the hyperactivity of like a young boy or things like that.
Whereas you can be high masking females like the symptoms are.
(16:30):
I didn't believe my sister when she mentioned that, Oh, Beth,
you know, maybe you have an HD lab.
Maybe that's something that's going on for you.
And I was like, no, really. And then I thought about it
obsessively. I was hyper focused on it and I
was like, Oh my God, that HD isn't what I actually imagined
(16:51):
it was because that's just not what I grew up thinking it was.
And it's actually like a whole nother level.
It's not just about those superficial things that people
see most of the time, yeah. I think what comes to mind for
me is this rhetoric that the media and society have at the
(17:14):
moment, and it's very prevalent at the moment in response to the
increase in diagnosis, especially ADHD and autism that
we're seeing. Their response is, Oh my God,
everybody just has ADHD and autism now.
And I think, one, that statementis devaluing any individual's
(17:35):
experience of pursuing A diagnosis and going through that
process. And two, I think we are living
in a world at the moment, very complex world, but we have so
much more understanding and information and resources and
technology available to us now that a lot of those people that
(18:00):
maybe slipped through the cracksearlier in their childhood are
finally now being seen and finally now have access to that
information that makes them think, oh, maybe like, I don't
fit that typical mold and maybe I should look into this
diagnosis. And I think rather than
society's response to that being, Oh my God, everybody just
(18:22):
has this now it And this is a quote from one of my favorite
books by Ellie Middleton Unmasked.
And she says, you know, rather than that response, we should be
thinking that, Oh my God, how did we let these people go
without support for so long? And I think that's really an
(18:43):
important reflection on this topic and one that I really
gravitate to. I've always hated that table
just function differently. Yeah.
Yeah, and that isn't a normal. And yeah, sorry if I'm throwing
a wrench in the works here. It might be not the greatest
topic for discussion. I suppose I might be at a little
out of date with, with sort of current research, but it's sort
(19:05):
of indicated as far as I'm aware, the most recent statistic
is if like a parent is neurodivergent, there's like a
50% chance of their child being neurodivergent.
So it's almost sort of they, they, they quite possibly could
be a literal increase in the prevalence of neurodivergence
because that's, that's a pretty big, like it's a literal coin
tosss whether someone's child will sort of live with
(19:27):
neurodivergence. If, if that study is correct and
up to date. Like I said, it's been a while
since I've looked into the information again, but I think
that just sort of goes to show it's sort of it's going to be
less and less of a divergent trait over time just by sheer,
you know, probability. So I think it's, it's really
good to sort of almost frame it as, as, you know, different ways
(19:49):
of thinking, not in the sense that it's different from the
norm, but it's just that uniquely distinct to a person's
individual context where, you know, we've, we've discussed it
in the same room. And obviously everyone refers to
neurodivergence on like a spectrum.
And the reason it's on a spectrum is because you can put
two autistic or two people with sort of ADHD next to each other
(20:10):
and they could have completely different experiences and ways
of sort of perceiving the world.Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's a very important reflection.
Yeah. So talked about what it may be
is like for us personally or theways that we've noticed in
others having a brain that wouldjust works differently from that
that norm in society. But I think what also doesn't
(20:33):
get mentioned enough is how often people feel pressure to
hide, hide it. And that's where the term
masking comes in. You may have heard of the term
masking, or you may have not, but essentially it's like
putting on an invisible costume just to fit in with the normal
(20:57):
or fit in with society, even if it means hiding parts of you
that you really enjoy or that make you feel the most yourself.
Examples of masking can maybe include mirroring other people's
behavior because that is maybe something that is the norm and
you want to replicate the thingsthat they're doing to fit in,
(21:21):
even if it doesn't come naturally to you.
Or maybe forcing yourself to make eye contact.
I know a lot of people just naturally feel comfortable
giving eye contact, but maybe toyou that isn't something that
feels super comfortable but you're forcing yourself to do it
just to just to fit in and feel normal.
There's so many different examples of what masking can
(21:43):
look like in in people. Have we ever noticed ourselves
or maybe notice it in others them masking or ourselves
masking? And if so, why do we think that
that happens for people? I probably spent a long like my
entire childhood and at high school masking.
(22:05):
I learned very quickly that I didn't feel quite right and that
I was, well, I felt that I was different.
And then especially when like, and I could deal with that and I
could probably show my true colours a bit more in primary
school. But then when I went to high
(22:26):
school, it felt like I was very different because there was a
lot of other people and I did end up being bullied quite badly
for some of the things that I would do.
So another part of neurodivergence is obsessive
compulsive disorder, and I was dealing with that quite a lot
(22:47):
through my childhood and then asa teenager growing up, and
everyone could see my compulsions, everyone could see
all of those things and they would pick on me for them.
I would then hide that. So I basically forced myself to,
I'm not sure any of that, still not acknowledging that I had OCD
(23:09):
until I was a young adult and past that stage.
But it was more so just out of safety.
Like you don't. And even in this day and age,
like with social media and just friends in general, no one wants
to be different. And when you feel like that,
like you try your best to try and fit in, like that's always
been quite a big thing I think, in society.
(23:33):
Yeah, I feel like for me, I wrote it here on my notes.
I feel like it's like that 24/7 customer service.
You're always putting on this costume or this cloak and
putting on maybe a different persona because you know, that
that maybe is more like sociallyacceptable or make you appear
(23:56):
cooler. And I have a very complex
journey with masking and it's, it's one that I haven't reach
the end of. I, my journey is very new and
early. I'm only just kind of navigating
what, what my identity is in this new divergent space.
(24:18):
But one thing I know for sure isI've always been a high masker.
But I, I think what I really struggle with is I don't know
what's normal and what's maskinganymore.
Like it's just become such a habit for me.
It's become this 24/7 identity that I, I, I don't know when I'm
(24:40):
masking or when I'm like, is this something that I actually
do enjoy? Or is this how I actually
communicate with people? Or it, it's, it's really complex
for me. The only time I can really feel
or acknowledge that maybe I havebeen masking is maybe when I get
in my car after socializing or get home and it it really
(25:01):
literally feels like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders
or a wall has dropped. Like, it's a physical feeling of
relief, like I'm safe or I can be me or I can sing Taylor Swift
as much as I have. Like I can really hone in on my
(25:21):
special interests and not be fearful of how that would be
perceived in society. So yeah, I wish I understood my
skin a little bit more, but it'svery complex for me.
I feel like very like that's very reliable for me.
Like I, when I saw my psychologist recently, she was
(25:43):
like, no, like, I just don't, I'm so organized.
I, you know, I can keep all together.
And she's like, that's like literally a form of masking.
Like you've just got strategies in place to compensate.
And I feel like I've now sort ofbeen just noting things and it's
like I was saying earlier about socializing.
It's like I I'll go somewhere and my mum's like, you're gonna
(26:06):
be so tired when you get back because she just knows I'm gonna
go there just almost like put ona big performance.
Yeah. And then by the time I get back,
I'm like, so drained. And it, it really happens every
time. And I always just thought, no, I
love socializing. But then I'm like, OK, that I
do. And I do love socializing.
I love seeing my friends. But then I'm just like, but is
(26:27):
it normal to feel so exhausted after like A1 hour catch up?
Like my friend will just wanna Murphy, if you're listening, we
just wanna hang out for like hours and hours 'cause he has it
like the biggest social battery I've ever seen.
Whereas he'll be around for likean hour and I'm like, OK, it's
time to. Get out.
I'm glad that you feel safe to be able to say that.
(26:48):
That's the other thing. But I think I'm really lucky in,
you know, through high school maybe I was a little bit more
nervous. I've really met my people in uni
and I think that's because we all do psychology so we all sort
of understand each other. And like my partner and
everything, I feel safe to be myself.
And I find myself avoiding people who make me feel small
(27:09):
and make me feel like I can't bemyself.
Because there are certainly people who I'm like, oh, you're
cooler than me. And I don't know how I can like
fit in with you. And I don't know if I even have
the capacity to mask enough to fit in with you.
So I think I'm just lucky that I've found people who just let
me be myself, let me have my little like temper tantrums or
on a holiday together and I'm overwhelmed.
(27:30):
It's like they're just, yeah, yeah.
So I'm lucky. I think masking has been an
interesting thing to explore forme because there's part of it
that's like a very unconscious thing and there's another part
that I guess I would consider conscious.
To very briefly contextualize, when I was diagnosed with ADHD,
the psychiatrist sort of also said like, hey, you are
(27:52):
displaying several indicators ofautism spectrum disorder as
well, but you're too high functioning to bother with a
diagnosis for it because you wouldn't get any help.
I think the term high functioning warrants discussion
itself, so I won't go into that there.
But I found when I started, you know, actually being able to
have my prescribed ADHD medication, it helped alleviate
(28:14):
some of the impactful symptoms of my ADHD, but it also made it
quite apparent that I was masking the ADHD symptoms quite
well. But I hadn't touched on anything
that was impacting me from sort of autism symptoms.
And they became a lot harder to mask all of a sudden because it
would something that I would argue I'd been unconsciously
doing the entire time. But suddenly my priorities for
(28:36):
what was and wasn't appropriate had shifted and pivoted all of a
sudden. And I think that was a very
interesting thing. But I think growing up as a, as
a kid, I, I was very focused on trying to make sure people were
comfortable around me. And I think in my, in my child
mind, I sort of saw how much people gravitated towards, you
know, characters they care aboutin books and TV shows and movies
(28:59):
and the fact that there was a level of predictability to their
behavior. But you could almost anticipate
how a character was going to respond to something in that.
So I think when I was younger, Ialmost, even if I had a bit of a
more nuanced response internallyto something, I would almost ham
up the predictability of that behavior and set up a little bit
of a predictable pattern in whatpeople could expect from me so
(29:22):
that they felt more comfortable about it.
And then I'd just keep a bit quiet if my behavior was a bit
unexpected in terms of my perception of it.
Yeah. Oh.
The choice of asking yes, are there any ways that we
personally D mask or maybe strategies that we've noticed
(29:43):
for others to utilize? I fidget and I've tried to let
myself, it took a lot of practice to be OK.
Like OK, yes, Beth, it is OK to fidget.
It is OK to play with things when you're having conversations
with people, like that's fine. So I think that just helps me
self regulate, at least while I am, you know, so then I'm still
(30:08):
doing something but dropping themask.
I mean, I feel like for me that was work with a psychologist and
working quite a lot with that alongside medication.
Yeah, I find that and like I said, it's still a journey.
I'm very open to hearing other people's strategies if they have
(30:30):
any. But one thing that really helps
me, and I think it's actually quite common, they say that
neurodivergent people tend to gravitate towards each other
quite naturally. And I have found that to be very
apparent in my adult life. I'm like, oh, you're also, oh,
that makes sense. So it's been really nice that
(30:55):
when I am feeling really socially burnt out, those are
the people that I gravitate towards and I feel most
comfortable with. And I was kind of jumping on
what you're saying, Jamie around.
I really lean into those relationships and people who
have their own personal experiences with being your own
(31:17):
diversion because I feel so comfortable and I feel like I
can talk about my special interests for a long period of
time. Or if I'm really afflicted by
decision paralysis, I'm like, no, you just make a decision.
They're like, no, you just make a decision.
And it's just like bouncing off of each other.
And it's just like, oh, we're both, you know, we get it.
It's, it's fine. There's just that shared mutual
(31:39):
understanding. And also in addition to that is
when, you know, I do get in my car or get home after
socializing, I'm like, OK, I'm really going to jump on to the
things that I really enjoy doingand those, those those fixations
at the moment, all those specialinterests, because that's where
I feel most myself and that's where I feel safe.
(32:01):
So it's maybe watching somethingthat I've been really fixated on
lately or going down a research rabbit hole or listening to the
same song over and over again and not feeling like, oh, that
person's going to be annoyed if I listen to the song 13 times in
a row. Like that's where I feel just my
most comfortable and feel that wall just naturally drop for me.
(32:25):
I think, again, my answer's a bit similar to my last one in
that I'm just like really lucky with the people around me.
And so often I'm just honest. I'm like, guys, it's getting a
little bit too much for me. I'm putting my earphones in or
like often when we're going away, they'll all play ball
(32:46):
games and I'll engage around onegame and then I'll be like, OK,
I'm just going to lay back here and half listen.
Like I just sort of, I need justa space like for myself to just
be able to step back and just watch and be in the environment
but not directly engaged. Which is why I always gravitate
towards group situations becauseI love not having the pressure
(33:07):
of like, staying engaged the whole time because I find that
long, long things always wear meout.
And then, yeah, just being able to sort of picking the people
that make me feel like I can be myself.
And then also allowing myself tohave as much alone time as I
need. Yeah.
So yeah. Parallel play I feel like is 1.
(33:30):
The term came to mind or something.
Me and my housemate do all the time.
Me and my best friend do. Yeah, totally.
Well, like an hour of an activity and then we'll just
like look at each other. And that look is like, we know,
let's just sit on our beds and listen to TikTok.
Literally my friend, which is like, I was like, I'm coming
over but I'm so grumpy right now.
(33:51):
Just like we'll just watch TikTok together and like, it's
like I'll come over. There, like, I love being in
your presence and that to me feels like, like we're hanging
out, but I don't want to talk toyou.
Yeah. Pretty much.
For me, yeah, it's once I click with a person or a group, it's I
can just bring down that wall and it's kind of good as well
(34:12):
cuz most of the time I'm my weird self.
I usually tell I don't get what people think.
Yeah, good mentality. I'm just going to be me.
But oftentimes, like if I feel like my social battery's down,
come home, start, like get into a good book or just watch ATV
(34:36):
show that I'm really into. But otherwise, yeah.
Awesome. Yeah, I think what I'm probably
going to say it's, it's very reminiscent of what you've
already expressed in some capacity.
Like, obviously, Santi, you justsaid being yourself and Ellie,
you were talking about, you know, the weight coming off of
your shoulders when you finally got to sit in your car and just
get home. And I think masking, in my
(34:57):
opinion, is almost like a bit ofa subconscious rejection of the
self in a way where it's sort oflike you're you're trying so
hard to do what you feel is the norm and and blend in and you're
using so much energy doing it. I think for me, what's really
helped is sort of practicing that, that self acceptance and
authenticity because I sort of noticed around me, it was thanks
(35:18):
to my partner actually. She, she pretty much says
immediately what's on her mind and what she's thinking.
And I mean everyone like she's, she's like a capybara person.
Like everybody gets along with her, everybody loves her.
But I noticed even though she'd sometimes be like incredibly
blunt with what she was thinkingand what she was saying, people
want to hear her opinion. And they actually like, you
know, want to hear her advice and they appreciate her
bluntness because they know thatshe's not going to beat around
(35:41):
the Bush or try and like protecttheir feelings about it.
She's just going to tell them the way it is.
And I think for me as someone who is a bit of a beat around
the Bush, protect feelings kind of person, seeing that people
were fully accepting of that trait that I would be a bit
afraid to be like myself. I sort of just started trying to
almost communicate things that would be a little bit quirky or
(36:04):
strange, but sort of just more in a like, hey, giving you a
heads up way. Like I'm, I'm a horrible texter.
I, I'm horrible at text correspondence and social media.
I'm basically, if you message me, you can expect a response to
come in a few days to a week because I basically message by
carrier pigeon. And I used to try so hard to
promptly respond to everyone that was communicating with me
(36:24):
within minutes. And then it just got so
exhausting and now it's like I may take a few days to respond.
It's not that I dislike you. It's, it's not that I'm upset
with you in any way. It's just the way I am.
And, you know, I found that's a lot healthier in terms of
interacting with people I care about and people I know because
they know that our relationship is fine.
It's just that I'm bad at texting.
(36:45):
And I think, you know, people are a lot more accepting of, of
those, those differences and those quirks that I think we, we
sort of internally perceive because we've got this baseline
perception of normal that we're trying to adhere to.
But it's sort of the same, the same example of like, how often
do you know the specific things about other people compared to
yourself, right? And that applies to everyone.
(37:05):
So I find that really helps me. But it is a conscious effort,
yeah. It does.
And it takes like a lot of time to learn how to shift that
feeling of shame and guilt that you have in response to on like,
I'm a bad texter, I'm a bad friend because I can't respond
as quickly as other people or something that I would always
(37:27):
say to myself is I'm just so lazy.
Like how can I not do the thingsthat seem so mundane to people
like responding quickly to my friend or being able to just
like put my clothes away or justlike wash that dish or, you
know, just like very mundane things.
And it's taken a long time to shift that into I'm not lazy.
(37:49):
My brain just is literally wireddifferently.
And yeah, it it, it's a journey.So I completely relate to that.
And I love that you kind of mentioned with your partner and
I think this really leads reallynicely into our final topic of
this podcast about neurodivergent superpowers.
(38:09):
And I was almost thinking when you were saying that, that it
that sounds like her superpower,like just being able to tell it
how it is and respond really honestly and bluntly.
And the right people will respond to her.
And those are her people. And I think a lot of the
discussion around neurodivergence at the moment,
(38:31):
it's focusing on the deficits of, of neurodivergence or all of
the bad things that, or the difficult things that happen in
everyday life. And while those do have merit
and they do impact people, I think it's really important that
we highlight the incredible strengths that come along with
neurodivergent ways of thinking.So this is our opportunity to
(38:54):
flip the script right here. I want to know what you think
some of your neurodivergent superpowers are, or the
superpowers that you've noticed in other people, or maybe the
strengths. I don't know.
I, I'd love to hear from you guys first because I'm like.
Oh yeah, let's start. It's that thing where our brains
(39:14):
just naturally kind of wired to think about all the deficits or
the the the difficult things. So I need a minute with this
one. But yeah, I'm keen to hear what
you guys have to say. Well, again, I don't know if
this technically is my neuro divergent or my masking.
It gets a little bit like mixed together.
(39:35):
Yeah. But I do think that I am really
full of energy, which I think allows me to be like a really
welcoming person and really makepeople feel welcome and invited
to things. And I think that's nice.
I love that. Well, you very much are that
person, whether it's masking or not.
(39:57):
Is there. It's it's within me, yeah.
It's you, yeah. Exactly.
I think in in other people, I'veactually got a like, I've got a
mate who's brilliant at Rubik's Cube.
So he come on, he he like, he starts off with you sort of like
3 by three by three sort of Rubik tube.
But I saw him once get like a star shaped Rubik's Cube that
(40:19):
has like 5 things per segment. And he's and he can just like
solve it in like 10 to 30 seconds.
And it's I'm like, how, how? But I think for me, it's sort of
like this, like I'd call it likea silver lining superpower, But
because the way at least I experience ADHD is my train of
focus is quite literally like a train.
And it's moving at all times. But I have to almost jump on the
(40:42):
moving train and it could arriveanywhere between 12:00 PM in the
middle of the day and 11:00 PM at night.
And I can't control when that train comes along, but if I can
catch the train, I can, I can focus on something really
efficiently. So it means, you know, in terms
of uni, that means that unfortunately, my best strategy
for assignments is all nighters in one go, rough time and well
(41:04):
managed. But on the flip side, that means
I only have to worry about that assignment for one night.
And I think as well it's, it's sort of built up my willpower
over time. And I think, you know,
especially with physical activities, the only thing that
sort of stops me from completingthat physical activity, even if
it's really taxing and really difficult, is if I were to, to
(41:26):
give up on it. So, you know, as a little bit of
a, a game sort of I, I went to a, a friend's wedding recently
and they jokingly said they wereexcited to see me dance.
And so I was like, oh, that's myassignment.
I'm going to dance and keep the dance floor alive for the rest
of the guests as long as I can. And I ended up dancing for four
hours straight because it was sort of this thing where even
(41:47):
though it, it can be physically taxing for me, I think because I
want to, I, I sort of can in a weird way.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think for me it's, I remember
everything, conversations, dates, events.
That's so cool. And I say how it is like, there
(42:09):
is no field to like, if you're going to do something and then
say something else, I'm just going to call you out on it.
Yes, it's a bad habit. But most of the time it's yeah,
I think my main supervisor is just remembering things like,
what's that in a conversation? It's like, no, this happened.
Nope, this is how it happened specifically but.
(42:30):
Actually, let me love my thing of evidence right here.
Like I have stuff to back it up as well.
Yeah. So it's just, yeah, remembering
it does become a pain as well, no?
It's superpower. Yeah.
We're flipping the script very good.
(42:51):
I have a few things but I think my main 1 is my insane
empathetic Dr. and like my my emotions.
I think one thing for me, like with my ADHD is that I feel such
strong emotions. It's like a whole body
experience, whether that's I'm excited about something, feels
(43:13):
like there is fire in my bones, or whether that is like I am
upset about something called angry.
Like it's like a whole body sensation.
And I think with my empathy as well, like I'm very empathetic
person and I always have been. And I didn't quite understand
that when I was a teenager and it was quite overwhelming.
(43:34):
But now it's, it means that I can just connect with people.
And especially like when you surround yourself with other
neurodivergent people and peoplethat like, you can just click
and you connect and it's amazing.
And then also just being so passionate, like I'm so
passionate about advocacy and I'm so passionate about like so
(43:55):
much love to give. If you know, I don't know.
It's like a big it's all the feelings.
Yeah, no. I get that.
I think like I'm going to jump on your van way about you're
just feeling things. And it's something that I hear
from a lot of my friends actually.
And it often comes as like a deficit of like, Oh, I wish I
(44:17):
just like didn't feel the way that I did as much as I like as
often as I did. Or why am I like, constantly
still thinking about this thing,like as if it's the worst thing
in the world. But I am always just like,
wouldn't you rather like feel these things so much more
intensely than not at all? Like, I think that's such a
(44:38):
positive thing. And while it is scary and while
we maybe need to reframe that inour minds and the way that we
feel about it, I think it's a really positive.
It's a superpower like that. We can feel so deeply about
certain things. I was going to say in terms of
my specific neurodivergence of superpower is more specifically
(45:01):
tied to like those fixations or their special interests.
I have like on repeat and annualfixation with the Titanic.
So if you want to talk about theTitanic, let me know.
I. Didn't have a fixation.
Yeah, yeah. It's just like those little
things like I, I know, I know a lot.
So I'd say that's my current superpower, just like little
(45:24):
random life, things that happen,I really gravitate towards.
So not that that was little or random.
That was kind of big moment in history, actually, but it's.
Going to say, I don't think I made it past when I realized the
boat was thinking. I got too.
I got too emotional. I had to like not I couldn't
watch it anymore. I was like, Nah, I'm out.
(45:45):
No, OK, it's devastating, but like if you watch a documentary
of it under the sea or the oceanat the moment, Oh my God, so
fascinating. I think there was a point when I
was in high school I did like full on research.
Yeah, it. Was like an extensive research.
There's got to be a club out there or something like Titanic
(46:08):
enthusiasts or something. Not that you're like enthused
about it happening, but just, you know, it's.
Happened, you know, Yes. But not trying to replicate this
in history. There's a podcast called Girl
Historians and they talk about. Girl stories, girl historians.
Oh girl. And they talk about the Titanic.
It's really, they're doing it quite a funny way.
(46:29):
I think they OK. Like.
It but did you watch Ocean Gate to documentary?
No, it's on Netflix. She says she's the yeah, and
then she's. OK, no, when I say expert, I'm
just watching the same documentary over again annually.
Like I'm not exploring anything new.
You're not just ringing the dopamine.
(46:50):
Yeah, I'm going back to my familiarity.
Yeah, true. Love familiar with World War 2
history? Yeah, I'm not.
I know, but like I know but it'sit's more the fact that how it
happened. And so complicated.
Yeah, so much so. Complicated, but it's just it.
This conversation reminds me just one thing I wanna preface
(47:11):
because we were things like yourADHD fixation.
I just oh, I can't stop ringing the dopamine out of certain
things. Yeah, like it will be.
Oh, what TV series are you watching right now?
I'm watching the same TV series I was watching when I was 10
years. Ago.
Stop. I'm watching the version every
year repeatedly. Yeah, yeah, I was like, and I
never get sick of it. True.
(47:31):
Never, never get sick of it. And it's like same with.
What's your TV shows? Oh God.
I don't want to say it on that I'm.
Saying Glee so. No, I'm actually.
I'm gonna watch. Well, no, not to the extent
Dance Academy. Oh.
My good. No, that's not that's.
Not and that's like. A lot of people would relate to
that. Yeah, I got to say though, I
(47:52):
think, I think that is another like superpower thing, like
unlocking someone's like fixation.
It's like it's like this sudden library of knowledge about
specific things has been opened up or I've got like I've got
specific things, like I've got my like, you know, different
universes and different fictional settings.
I love, but I also think it's sort of like the random trivia
(48:13):
knowledge I tend to just passively accrue on my like
Wikipedia and I'm almost weirdlygrateful for, even though I
can't control what information is retained because my like my
Co workers always joke. I'll come out with a random fact
and then we always joke like Philomena Kunk, like the, the
bit where she's like in ancient Egypt, the most significant
thing you could do in life was die.
It's like, I can, I can just like, we'll be talking about
(48:34):
something and I'll be like, oh, did you know this, this, this
and this? And they're like, how do you
know that, that that's like so fulfilling.
But when you have someone else explaining something they're
passionate about in great detail, like I've got a couple
of friends who like will love a particular video game or love a
particular series and they'll bebreaking it down for me.
And obviously some people be like, oh, that's really
annoying. But I feel privileged to be able
(48:55):
to hear sort of the the culmination of that passion.
And they're trying so, you know,earnestly to convey that
information to me in a way that,you know, will make me feel
equally as passionate about it. And I think that's a really
special thing, yes. We are the best teammate on a
quiz team, yeah. Yeah, 100% for sure.
(49:16):
OK, maybe we don't maybe like certain categories, but just
also this random like general knowledge.
Yes, yeah, pop me on your team. But specifically Titanic.
Yeah, honestly, I could list offa few, but yeah, if, if there's
got a, if there's a quiz night out there, that's Titanic thing,
(49:37):
I'm gonna be there. Amazing.
Well, that was a fun conversation.
There's so many things that are important to talk about when it
comes to neurodivergence. I think it's really important
that we end on just maybe reflecting on one thing that we
(49:57):
wish people better understood about neurodiversity, because
being neurodivergent, it doesn'tmean being broken or you're
weird. It's just we all have different
experiences and our brains are all different and the world
needs all of those types of brains and that uniqueness.
(50:18):
So what's one thing that we wishpeople knew about neurodiversity
or the biggest take away from this podcast?
I think one thing that I am, I'mpretty, I'm I'm in it right now.
This is what I'm like need to hear as well is that it is such
a broad banner and it is a spectrum neurodiversity and it
(50:40):
is like they were finding out more information about it all
the time and all these other things.
There are people when they will say comments like everyone is a
little bit neurodivergent or everyone's sort of things like
that. And whether that's the case or
not that everyone has their quirks or not.
I think the one thing for me that I just like to think of is
(51:05):
everyone has their own lived experiences.
If you are experiencing something that affects you so
deeply that it is impacting youreveryday life, then that is
completely valid. And just because someone says,
oh, everyone's just got a littlebit everyone, yes, everyone has
(51:25):
a personality. Everyone can be who they are and
things like that. But some people are affected
more than others when it comes to things like that.
And if it's impacting your dailylife and all of those things,
then don't feel like it's not valid If someone says that
comment because it. Is yeah, I'm hearing that a lot
(51:48):
or that it's really like trendy to yeah, autistic or IED HD.
I don't think it's trendy at allThese are real disabilities that
really impact people on their everyday life and disabilities
Also an interesting time on thisspace.
Some people really gravitate towards resonating with neo
(52:08):
diversity as a disability. Some people don't.
So take that as you personally respond to it.
But yeah, when no one's just jumping on this bat bandwagon
because they want attention, they're they're doing it because
it affects their real everyday life and it impacts things that
they're noticing that maybe other people aren't impacted by
(52:31):
as much. So I'm very much.
And jumping off of that from both of you again as well, I
feel like even though things impact me because of how highly
I'm asked, I still feel like I'mnot valid.
And it's not like I don't deserve to have that clarity
(52:52):
around like what's going on for me.
And so I think even again for myself, like what you're saying,
I think I myself and wish other people as well would know that
it is a valid experience like you say.
Yeah. Yeah, they're piggybacking off
what I was just. Piggybacking.
Yeah, what I usually tell peopleis it's fine to be different.
(53:14):
Like you don't have to be the same as the next person.
Yes, in certain settings you do have to tone it down a bit, but
just be yourself. Like on my own self, like
regardless of what setting I'm in, I tweak myself a bit, but
otherwise it's just be yourself,Yeah.
Don't change anything for anyoneunless it's needed.
(53:39):
But yeah. I guess on the bandwagon
conversation before I say my point, I think the, the, the
really thing that's kind of annoying about people talking
about it like it's a trend is there is literal psychological
and psychiatric backing. Like it's like it is a
diagnosable condition. And I think that's a really
important thing to remember because it's not like it's like,
oh, I'm going to go to the trendy psychiatrist, get a
(54:01):
trendy diagnosis so that I can hold this trendy piece of paper.
It's not like that at all. And it's usually you're seeing
someone because it's impacting your life in some way, shape or
form and you're, you're looking to understand yourself better.
But I guess my my final point onthe sort of final question is,
and it might sound a bit broad, but compassion doesn't require
relation or to or understanding of someone else's experience.
(54:25):
You can be compassionate withoutgetting it, for lack of a better
term. Like sure, some people are going
to put sock sock shoe shoe on, but it's not actually that big a
deal. If someone wants to put sock
shoe sock shoe. And you don't have to be like
why do you put sock, shoe, sock shoe, What's the problem?
You should be putting sock, sock, shoe, shoe.
Like it doesn't matter. And you shouldn't have to be
(54:46):
able to relate to someone wanting to put sock, shoe, sock
shoe on to respect that they just got to put sock, shoe, sock
shoe on. Even if you're not 2 shoes.
That's the the best way I can think to explain it.
But it's sort of like you don't have to get it.
You just, you can still be compassionate about it.
Yeah, yeah. I love that.
I think that's the perfect metaphor to end this episode and
to leave people with that's lostit.
(55:10):
She's gonna go home and be like,what I do?
Do I do so. So she should.
I've never thought of that metaphor before.
I'm just like, my mind is blown.Thank you.
No, we have talked about some really great things and I thank
all of you for sharing your veryvulnerable personal experiences
or the experiences of others that you've noticed in your
(55:31):
life. There are so many amazing
resources out there that will belisted and we'll we'll list our
favourites in the show notes. So if you are interested in
exploring this topic a little bit further or you're
neurodivergent yourself and you want to maybe access some tools
or resources to support you in your everyday life, we will have
those in our show notes. So please refer to them if
(55:53):
needed. As always, if this episode has
brought up anything for you and you would like to chat to
somebody, we also list some amazing help lines and support
services in our show notes as well.
So please utilize them or come and speak to somebody at
Headspace. If you want to know a bit more
about Headspace, we've got a whole first episode on
everything that we do and the amazing services that we offer.
(56:16):
So thank you guys so much for this incredible episode.
We're really excited for Part 2 of this episode, which will be
with a clinical educator on neurodiversity, bit more of AQ
and a style. So if you have any questions
that you are interested in having the answer to by somebody
in this profession, pop them in the comments or send us AD send
(56:40):
us Adm and we will pop them on our notes to ask our very
educated professional more to come on that.
But yeah, thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you
very, very soon. Thanks everyone.
Thank you. Bye.
Hi, my name's Yanni. I'm an Aboriginal peer support
worker at Headspace Adelaide. I'd like to acknowledge that the
land we operate from and a meeting on right now is the land
of the Ghana people. I pay my respects to their
Elders, past, present and future, and acknowledge
Headspace's commitment to makinga positive contribution to young
people who are Aboriginal. Hello and welcome back to Head
(00:31):
Safe Sessions podcast for another really exciting episode.
Once again, I am joined by a wonderful crew of Co hosts.
My name's Ali, and shall we hearfrom who's joining us today?
I'm Jamie. I'm Beth.
I'm Santi. I'm Benjamin.
(00:53):
Full crew today -1 minus our script developer for this
episode, Adam, but we know he's listening somewhere.
He's listening somewhere. And we're really thankful.
We're really thankful for him writing this very special
episode for us today. We're going to be chatting all
things neurodiversity. This episode is going to be
(01:19):
adjacent to a really informativeepisode that comes next.
But today we're gonna be a get abit vulnerable.
We're gonna get a bit real. We're gonna talk about our own
personal experiences with neurodivergence and what it
means for us. Before we get into all of that
good content, though, we once again have an awesome
icebreaker. And this one, it's pretty fun
(01:41):
and it's what something your brain does that makes you laugh.
Maybe roll your eyes or just go classic me.
I always used to laugh about my sister telling Jess stories.
Her name's Jess, and they were. Jess Stories.
Jess Stories. Like Jess telling Jess stories
so. They always said chess.
No, Jess. Like that's funny chess.
(02:03):
Stories they would be they wouldjust go on and on and you would
never get to the point right Andthen it would take like 3
different roads and all these different lane ways.
And like you, it was, it was a just story, like, you know, and
everyone in our family would laugh about it.
And then I realized that I do ittoo.
And I was. Like Beth stories?
Yeah, I was like, oh, I've been blaming her for this and I get
(02:26):
annoyed at her for it, but I do the exact same thing.
Peak modelling there. That just somehow reminded me of
the one I hate the most. I think so when I when I play
games like I, I tend to play on my Xbox, but I'm sitting on the
couch and I always forget. It happens until someone gently
reminds me. But I pretty much almost do a
(02:47):
running commentary of what I'm doing as if I'm like streaming.
But I've never streamed in my life before.
Like ever since I was a kid there, there was like there was
an audience, but the audience isn't there.
So it's like it, it's so annoying.
I can imagine it's like the mostfrustrating thing on the planet
to be even near me when it's hanging because sometimes I just
get so like involved in what I'mdoing.
(03:07):
I'm like, Oh no. What's that guy do it like you
don't do that during movies too do.
You. No, no, no, no, no, no.
I am. I am.
That's that's the thing that I think annoys me about it.
When I'm in the movies, like especially in the cinema, I'm
like, is that your phone? Are you checking your messages
right now on the couch? But then it's like the second
I'm playing games, I'm. Like look at that guy over.
There isn't he funny heart? No one's listening.
(03:28):
It's like, yeah, that's fun. I think for me it's if we go
into cinema and people just giveme like so many questions like
oh, I'm walking the movie. I'm like Oh my God, just just
don't. I'll answer all your questions
after the movie, but not I just does not work for me.
No, you're in your zone, Yeah. I'm that person.
(03:50):
I'm very funny. I'm not going to the movie.
And also like, shaking when theycan't, like, sit still.
Yeah. And they're right, right next,
man. Just like shaking the entire
role. And it's like.
Oh, you don't like other people shaking?
I thought you meant yourself. I'm.
I'm fine. Like, I'd sit and watch the
movie, right? I won't move at all.
There could just be one position.
(04:11):
Do you mean specifically shakingat the movies or like just
specifically at the movies? Or is it just anyone next to
you? Like.
Right now, next to you. Specifically at the movies,
because it's because they're shaking the entire row and it's
like the seats are also vibrating back.
What's that happening? And I see the next person just
shaking their legs. It's like, Oh my God.
(04:32):
Oh, interesting, interesting. Cribe, what about you?
Jamie, I think for me is something that my brain does is
like, I'll go to a social event and I will just like, go, haha,
like, just go absolutely socially crazy.
And then within about 10 minutes, I'm like, yeah, about
time to go home now. I just wish I had the ability to
(04:54):
spread out my social energies and it just being like, so
excited to go and then like, social battery's dead in like 10
minutes. Yeah.
And like, even my friends have arunning joke where it's like,
Jamie, you can't say in 20 minutes that your social
battery's dead. I'm like, yeah, OK.
They've figured out your how. About you.
(05:14):
Mine is I've come to learn over my 25 incredible years of life
that I can't write things down on like physical pieces of
paper. As good as my intentions are, in
an hour, whatever, I don't know where that piece of paper is.
It's just gone. It's literally evaporated into
(05:37):
thin air. I can be like, yeah, I really
need to write this down. I really need to put it in a
safe space. Where is that safe place?
I have too many safe places. And then I'm like, but what safe
place did I think I was putting it in at the time?
And I just, yeah, I lose track of them so I can't write things
down. I need a, I need to put things
(05:59):
in like my phone and have it in like a digital way because
otherwise I'm just going to forget about it.
So it's, it's really that like object Permian for me.
Yeah, yeah. Yes I write like 5 lists over
and over again. Like consistently.
I'll write a list, it has all the exact same thing on it.
I'll like RIP it out if it's oneword wrong and I'll like write
it again. So sorry to all the trees, they
are just being cut. Oh no, I I get you.
(06:21):
I have like 10 different notebooks for like just
different topics of my life. So it's it's pretty bad, but
yeah, that's mine. Thank you everybody for sharing
fun little moments that our brain does.
This leads really nicely into our first topic of the pod
today, which is what neurodivergence means to us.
(06:46):
You listening, you may have probably heard the word
neurodivergence or neurodiversity or
neurodivergent. However, the word has come
across to you in your life. You've probably heard about it a
lot recently, perhaps at school from people in your life, or
perhaps online on TikTok and Instagram.
(07:07):
But what does it actually mean? So neurodivergence can refer to
the idea that some people's brains just function in ways
that may be considered typical, or what we call neurotypical.
So these differences can affect how a person thinks, learns,
(07:27):
maybe processes new information,communicates, or just in general
experiences. The world that we live in,
Simply put, everybody's brain works very differently.
We all have a very different brain on this table.
You guys listening, listening probably have your own gripes
that you came up with while we were chat, chatting about ours.
(07:48):
Some of us might hyper focus forthings on ours.
Some of us might not be able to write things down on pieces of
paper. Whatever it might be, we're all
different and I think it's important to know it's not
weird, it's just different. Neurodivergence can include
things like autism, ADHD, dyslexia.
(08:11):
There are so many different terms that fit under that
umbrella, but basically it is just a way of thinking or
processing that doesn't fit thattypical mold.
I'm really eager to hear from you guys what your first
experience with the term neurodivergence was.
Maybe what you thought it meant at the time that you first heard
(08:33):
of it, or maybe how you noticed it in yourself or showing up in
others. I feel like the first, like, way
I heard neurodivergence was onlythat like that autism is only
thing that can fall under it. So I think as I got older, it's
been interesting to learn that people's brains work in all
(08:54):
different ways, not just yeah, limited to that.
So yeah. Yeah, I think my first time sort
of hearing about neurodivergencewas honestly I'd say it would,
it would be just before the sortof 2020 started.
I think that the term to me was relatively new.
(09:14):
I had what I would consider a decent understanding of, you
know, autism and ADHD and dyslexia, just either through,
you know, people I knew or my own understandings.
But the actual term itself, I found I hadn't familiarized
myself with it for quite a while.
For me, seeing it in myself is abit of a weird experience
because for me, I was, I was only diagnosed in sort of like
(09:38):
2022, roughly 2023 maybe even. But I grew up with thinking a
bunch of things, which is eithernormal or I just had a couple of
quirks here and there. And then sort of I had enough
different people in my life sortof emphasizing to me, hey,
that's not how most people, you know, go about that or perceive
(09:59):
that. That's not, you know, quite the
same. Not in like a negative way or
anything. But then it sort of prompted me
to actually look into it becauseI think I didn't, I didn't fit
the very sort of stereotypical child sort of behavioral
manifestations of neurodivergence where, you know,
you've got that stereotype that they're disruptive or, you know,
they're really loud and not listening to teachers in
(10:20):
classroom sort of thing. I was very sort of enthusiastic
at school and stuff like that. So I think I'd just gone under
the radar for the typical stuff,and I think that's why it was a
bit more complex for me at least, yeah.
I can relate to that in terms ofmy first kind of experience with
the term was those extreme versions of what ADHD or autism
(10:42):
can look like, or the really stigmatized versions.
I think my first time that I heard about ADHD was, you know,
the, the disruptive little boys in class that couldn't focus or
their, the behaviour wasn't good.
And that's, that came to be whatmy understanding was of ADHD.
(11:02):
So as I grew up and maybe I started noticing little things
about myself, I was like, well, there's no way that I could
possibly be ADHD or autistic because like, I don't, I'm not
disruptive like those little boys in class or, you know, I
don't have those same traits. So it took a lot of unlearning
for me to personally, yeah, be able to relate to that.
(11:26):
For me, it was when I first did my diploma in forensic
psychology. But you know you there were
times when terms like ADHD, autism was just thrown out.
But like I just knew it as like a term rather than what it
actually meant in terms of my own experience.
(11:48):
I wouldn't say I'm new to diversion, but then I haven't
been tested for it, but I'd say I'm hyperactive.
I can't like even when I was a kid, I couldn't stay still.
Like parents would get teachers calling saying hey, he can't
stay still like when I was in myyounger years even now like I
that's exactly why I do sports is because I need to keep doing
(12:12):
something. Even at work it's I can't, I
can't just stay in still. I need to keep walking.
I need to like move, do something.
But yeah. I love that you found an outlet
for that, that you you notice yourself having maybe more
energy than other people do. And you're like, hey, well,
let's put this energy somewhere.Let's go.
That's I. Think it's more my mum that to
(12:35):
figure that out because and evennow I just start checking my
leg. It's even though I don't like it
at cinemas, I was. Like, well, isn't that?
Your friend. But that's in cinemas.
But like at a social setting, ifI feel like OK, it just comes on
and it's sitting still. It's not working for me, but
(12:55):
yeah. Well, shout out to Mum for
noticing. I know you're watching.
Oh yeah, she is. I think so.
Neurodivergence, the word itselfand neurodiversity, I didn't
really hear much of that until recently.
In the recent years that and that I've been working with my
(13:16):
psychologist in particular, likeshe's got pictures on her walls
and stuff of different things and like a cloud that has
neurodivergence, like all the different sort of disorders that
sit under that and stuff. And I think that's when I first
kind of focused on the word neurodivergence.
But I think I've always been aware of ADHD, autism and all of
(13:37):
those things. I went to a small country
primary school and we had very noticeably affected individuals
with autism and it was quite obvious and they would have
extra support and stuff in classas well.
ADHD was one of those things that was like the hyperactive
(13:58):
boys. I never really heard of any
females as I was growing up. Having it like that was not
something that was ever, you know, talked about noticed for
me. I always felt different and I
always felt like something wasn't quite right.
And it took a long time for me to get assistance with that.
(14:20):
And I think once I did, I then found out, Oh, okay.
Well, I've heard of now this term neurodivergence.
Well, that makes so much more sense.
A firm employee. It was a firm.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that.
Yeah, there's obviously so much that we've heard about
(14:41):
neurodivergence and our own experiences of what that meant
to us the first time we came across it.
What's one thing, maybe in particular, one myth that we've
heard about neurodiversity that maybe doesn't sit with us very
well? And I can think of a million in
my mind, and I see so many of you nodding.
(15:02):
Ben, what's on your mind? I think the one that sort of
really gets on my nerves becauseit's not a myth per SE, but it's
just a misunderstanding of like syndrome where it's sort of like
there's this perception that every neurodivergent person is
going to be like brilliant at something.
And it's sort of like, you know,you've got like shows like the
Good Doctor and stuff like that where it's like, you know, it's
(15:24):
just every representation of, ofneurodiversity in a lot of sort
of media is like, you know, Sheldon Cooper type thing where
it's like, you know, absolutely brilliant, like astrophysicist
sort of thing. Where it's, and yes, there are,
there are going to be things that neurodiverse people are
really good at, but it's not that, you know, every
neurodivergent person you meet is just like this hidden genius
(15:47):
that's really socially weird sort of thing.
Because I think that's the general perception of it where
it's sort of a lot less stable is probably the way I'd word it
in terms of how you'd actually live with neurodivergence in
your everyday life compared to the way it's presented.
Yeah. I think for me, it's
particularly with ADHD, mainly because it's like personal, but
(16:10):
being a female, no one ever talks about how that is they and
even just in general, they usually focus on the impulsivity
and the hyperactivity of like a young boy or things like that.
Whereas you can be high masking females like the symptoms are.
(16:30):
I didn't believe my sister when she mentioned that, Oh, Beth,
you know, maybe you have an HD lab.
Maybe that's something that's going on for you.
And I was like, no, really. And then I thought about it
obsessively. I was hyper focused on it and I
was like, Oh my God, that HD isn't what I actually imagined
(16:51):
it was because that's just not what I grew up thinking it was.
And it's actually like a whole nother level.
It's not just about those superficial things that people
see most of the time, yeah. I think what comes to mind for
me is this rhetoric that the media and society have at the
(17:14):
moment, and it's very prevalent at the moment in response to the
increase in diagnosis, especially ADHD and autism that
we're seeing. Their response is, Oh my God,
everybody just has ADHD and autism now.
And I think, one, that statementis devaluing any individual's
(17:35):
experience of pursuing A diagnosis and going through that
process. And two, I think we are living
in a world at the moment, very complex world, but we have so
much more understanding and information and resources and
technology available to us now that a lot of those people that
(18:00):
maybe slipped through the cracksearlier in their childhood are
finally now being seen and finally now have access to that
information that makes them think, oh, maybe like, I don't
fit that typical mold and maybe I should look into this
diagnosis. And I think rather than
society's response to that being, Oh my God, everybody just
(18:22):
has this now it And this is a quote from one of my favorite
books by Ellie Middleton Unmasked.
And she says, you know, rather than that response, we should be
thinking that, Oh my God, how did we let these people go
without support for so long? And I think that's really an
(18:43):
important reflection on this topic and one that I really
gravitate to. I've always hated that table
just function differently. Yeah.
Yeah, and that isn't a normal. And yeah, sorry if I'm throwing
a wrench in the works here. It might be not the greatest
topic for discussion. I suppose I might be at a little
out of date with, with sort of current research, but it's sort
(19:05):
of indicated as far as I'm aware, the most recent statistic
is if like a parent is neurodivergent, there's like a
50% chance of their child being neurodivergent.
So it's almost sort of they, they, they quite possibly could
be a literal increase in the prevalence of neurodivergence
because that's, that's a pretty big, like it's a literal coin
tosss whether someone's child will sort of live with
(19:27):
neurodivergence. If, if that study is correct and
up to date. Like I said, it's been a while
since I've looked into the information again, but I think
that just sort of goes to show it's sort of it's going to be
less and less of a divergent trait over time just by sheer,
you know, probability. So I think it's, it's really
good to sort of almost frame it as, as, you know, different ways
(19:49):
of thinking, not in the sense that it's different from the
norm, but it's just that uniquely distinct to a person's
individual context where, you know, we've, we've discussed it
in the same room. And obviously everyone refers to
neurodivergence on like a spectrum.
And the reason it's on a spectrum is because you can put
two autistic or two people with sort of ADHD next to each other
(20:10):
and they could have completely different experiences and ways
of sort of perceiving the world.Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's a very important reflection.
Yeah. So talked about what it may be
is like for us personally or theways that we've noticed in
others having a brain that wouldjust works differently from that
that norm in society. But I think what also doesn't
(20:33):
get mentioned enough is how often people feel pressure to
hide, hide it. And that's where the term
masking comes in. You may have heard of the term
masking, or you may have not, but essentially it's like
putting on an invisible costume just to fit in with the normal
(20:57):
or fit in with society, even if it means hiding parts of you
that you really enjoy or that make you feel the most yourself.
Examples of masking can maybe include mirroring other people's
behavior because that is maybe something that is the norm and
you want to replicate the thingsthat they're doing to fit in,
(21:21):
even if it doesn't come naturally to you.
Or maybe forcing yourself to make eye contact.
I know a lot of people just naturally feel comfortable
giving eye contact, but maybe toyou that isn't something that
feels super comfortable but you're forcing yourself to do it
just to just to fit in and feel normal.
There's so many different examples of what masking can
(21:43):
look like in in people. Have we ever noticed ourselves
or maybe notice it in others them masking or ourselves
masking? And if so, why do we think that
that happens for people? I probably spent a long like my
entire childhood and at high school masking.
(22:05):
I learned very quickly that I didn't feel quite right and that
I was, well, I felt that I was different.
And then especially when like, and I could deal with that and I
could probably show my true colours a bit more in primary
school. But then when I went to high
(22:26):
school, it felt like I was very different because there was a
lot of other people and I did end up being bullied quite badly
for some of the things that I would do.
So another part of neurodivergence is obsessive
compulsive disorder, and I was dealing with that quite a lot
(22:47):
through my childhood and then asa teenager growing up, and
everyone could see my compulsions, everyone could see
all of those things and they would pick on me for them.
I would then hide that. So I basically forced myself to,
I'm not sure any of that, still not acknowledging that I had OCD
(23:09):
until I was a young adult and past that stage.
But it was more so just out of safety.
Like you don't. And even in this day and age,
like with social media and just friends in general, no one wants
to be different. And when you feel like that,
like you try your best to try and fit in, like that's always
been quite a big thing I think, in society.
(23:33):
Yeah, I feel like for me, I wrote it here on my notes.
I feel like it's like that 24/7 customer service.
You're always putting on this costume or this cloak and
putting on maybe a different persona because you know, that
that maybe is more like sociallyacceptable or make you appear
(23:56):
cooler. And I have a very complex
journey with masking and it's, it's one that I haven't reach
the end of. I, my journey is very new and
early. I'm only just kind of navigating
what, what my identity is in this new divergent space.
(24:18):
But one thing I know for sure isI've always been a high masker.
But I, I think what I really struggle with is I don't know
what's normal and what's maskinganymore.
Like it's just become such a habit for me.
It's become this 24/7 identity that I, I, I don't know when I'm
(24:40):
masking or when I'm like, is this something that I actually
do enjoy? Or is this how I actually
communicate with people? Or it, it's, it's really complex
for me. The only time I can really feel
or acknowledge that maybe I havebeen masking is maybe when I get
in my car after socializing or get home and it it really
(25:01):
literally feels like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders
or a wall has dropped. Like, it's a physical feeling of
relief, like I'm safe or I can be me or I can sing Taylor Swift
as much as I have. Like I can really hone in on my
(25:21):
special interests and not be fearful of how that would be
perceived in society. So yeah, I wish I understood my
skin a little bit more, but it'svery complex for me.
I feel like very like that's very reliable for me.
Like I, when I saw my psychologist recently, she was
(25:43):
like, no, like, I just don't, I'm so organized.
I, you know, I can keep all together.
And she's like, that's like literally a form of masking.
Like you've just got strategies in place to compensate.
And I feel like I've now sort ofbeen just noting things and it's
like I was saying earlier about socializing.
It's like I I'll go somewhere and my mum's like, you're gonna
(26:06):
be so tired when you get back because she just knows I'm gonna
go there just almost like put ona big performance.
Yeah. And then by the time I get back,
I'm like, so drained. And it, it really happens every
time. And I always just thought, no, I
love socializing. But then I'm like, OK, that I
do. And I do love socializing.
I love seeing my friends. But then I'm just like, but is
(26:27):
it normal to feel so exhausted after like A1 hour catch up?
Like my friend will just wanna Murphy, if you're listening, we
just wanna hang out for like hours and hours 'cause he has it
like the biggest social battery I've ever seen.
Whereas he'll be around for likean hour and I'm like, OK, it's
time to. Get out.
I'm glad that you feel safe to be able to say that.
(26:48):
That's the other thing. But I think I'm really lucky in,
you know, through high school maybe I was a little bit more
nervous. I've really met my people in uni
and I think that's because we all do psychology so we all sort
of understand each other. And like my partner and
everything, I feel safe to be myself.
And I find myself avoiding people who make me feel small
(27:09):
and make me feel like I can't bemyself.
Because there are certainly people who I'm like, oh, you're
cooler than me. And I don't know how I can like
fit in with you. And I don't know if I even have
the capacity to mask enough to fit in with you.
So I think I'm just lucky that I've found people who just let
me be myself, let me have my little like temper tantrums or
on a holiday together and I'm overwhelmed.
(27:30):
It's like they're just, yeah, yeah.
So I'm lucky. I think masking has been an
interesting thing to explore forme because there's part of it
that's like a very unconscious thing and there's another part
that I guess I would consider conscious.
To very briefly contextualize, when I was diagnosed with ADHD,
the psychiatrist sort of also said like, hey, you are
(27:52):
displaying several indicators ofautism spectrum disorder as
well, but you're too high functioning to bother with a
diagnosis for it because you wouldn't get any help.
I think the term high functioning warrants discussion
itself, so I won't go into that there.
But I found when I started, you know, actually being able to
have my prescribed ADHD medication, it helped alleviate
(28:14):
some of the impactful symptoms of my ADHD, but it also made it
quite apparent that I was masking the ADHD symptoms quite
well. But I hadn't touched on anything
that was impacting me from sort of autism symptoms.
And they became a lot harder to mask all of a sudden because it
would something that I would argue I'd been unconsciously
doing the entire time. But suddenly my priorities for
(28:36):
what was and wasn't appropriate had shifted and pivoted all of a
sudden. And I think that was a very
interesting thing. But I think growing up as a, as
a kid, I, I was very focused on trying to make sure people were
comfortable around me. And I think in my, in my child
mind, I sort of saw how much people gravitated towards, you
know, characters they care aboutin books and TV shows and movies
(28:59):
and the fact that there was a level of predictability to their
behavior. But you could almost anticipate
how a character was going to respond to something in that.
So I think when I was younger, Ialmost, even if I had a bit of a
more nuanced response internallyto something, I would almost ham
up the predictability of that behavior and set up a little bit
of a predictable pattern in whatpeople could expect from me so
(29:22):
that they felt more comfortable about it.
And then I'd just keep a bit quiet if my behavior was a bit
unexpected in terms of my perception of it.
Yeah. Oh.
The choice of asking yes, are there any ways that we
personally D mask or maybe strategies that we've noticed
(29:43):
for others to utilize? I fidget and I've tried to let
myself, it took a lot of practice to be OK.
Like OK, yes, Beth, it is OK to fidget.
It is OK to play with things when you're having conversations
with people, like that's fine. So I think that just helps me
self regulate, at least while I am, you know, so then I'm still
(30:08):
doing something but dropping themask.
I mean, I feel like for me that was work with a psychologist and
working quite a lot with that alongside medication.
Yeah, I find that and like I said, it's still a journey.
I'm very open to hearing other people's strategies if they have
(30:30):
any. But one thing that really helps
me, and I think it's actually quite common, they say that
neurodivergent people tend to gravitate towards each other
quite naturally. And I have found that to be very
apparent in my adult life. I'm like, oh, you're also, oh,
that makes sense. So it's been really nice that
(30:55):
when I am feeling really socially burnt out, those are
the people that I gravitate towards and I feel most
comfortable with. And I was kind of jumping on
what you're saying, Jamie around.
I really lean into those relationships and people who
have their own personal experiences with being your own
(31:17):
diversion because I feel so comfortable and I feel like I
can talk about my special interests for a long period of
time. Or if I'm really afflicted by
decision paralysis, I'm like, no, you just make a decision.
They're like, no, you just make a decision.
And it's just like bouncing off of each other.
And it's just like, oh, we're both, you know, we get it.
It's, it's fine. There's just that shared mutual
(31:39):
understanding. And also in addition to that is
when, you know, I do get in my car or get home after
socializing, I'm like, OK, I'm really going to jump on to the
things that I really enjoy doingand those, those those fixations
at the moment, all those specialinterests, because that's where
I feel most myself and that's where I feel safe.
(32:01):
So it's maybe watching somethingthat I've been really fixated on
lately or going down a research rabbit hole or listening to the
same song over and over again and not feeling like, oh, that
person's going to be annoyed if I listen to the song 13 times in
a row. Like that's where I feel just my
most comfortable and feel that wall just naturally drop for me.
(32:25):
I think, again, my answer's a bit similar to my last one in
that I'm just like really lucky with the people around me.
And so often I'm just honest. I'm like, guys, it's getting a
little bit too much for me. I'm putting my earphones in or
like often when we're going away, they'll all play ball
(32:46):
games and I'll engage around onegame and then I'll be like, OK,
I'm just going to lay back here and half listen.
Like I just sort of, I need justa space like for myself to just
be able to step back and just watch and be in the environment
but not directly engaged. Which is why I always gravitate
towards group situations becauseI love not having the pressure
(33:07):
of like, staying engaged the whole time because I find that
long, long things always wear meout.
And then, yeah, just being able to sort of picking the people
that make me feel like I can be myself.
And then also allowing myself tohave as much alone time as I
need. Yeah.
So yeah. Parallel play I feel like is 1.
(33:30):
The term came to mind or something.
Me and my housemate do all the time.
Me and my best friend do. Yeah, totally.
Well, like an hour of an activity and then we'll just
like look at each other. And that look is like, we know,
let's just sit on our beds and listen to TikTok.
Literally my friend, which is like, I was like, I'm coming
over but I'm so grumpy right now.
(33:51):
Just like we'll just watch TikTok together and like, it's
like I'll come over. There, like, I love being in
your presence and that to me feels like, like we're hanging
out, but I don't want to talk toyou.
Yeah. Pretty much.
For me, yeah, it's once I click with a person or a group, it's I
can just bring down that wall and it's kind of good as well
(34:12):
cuz most of the time I'm my weird self.
I usually tell I don't get what people think.
Yeah, good mentality. I'm just going to be me.
But oftentimes, like if I feel like my social battery's down,
come home, start, like get into a good book or just watch ATV
(34:36):
show that I'm really into. But otherwise, yeah.
Awesome. Yeah, I think what I'm probably
going to say it's, it's very reminiscent of what you've
already expressed in some capacity.
Like, obviously, Santi, you justsaid being yourself and Ellie,
you were talking about, you know, the weight coming off of
your shoulders when you finally got to sit in your car and just
get home. And I think masking, in my
(34:57):
opinion, is almost like a bit ofa subconscious rejection of the
self in a way where it's sort oflike you're you're trying so
hard to do what you feel is the norm and and blend in and you're
using so much energy doing it. I think for me, what's really
helped is sort of practicing that, that self acceptance and
authenticity because I sort of noticed around me, it was thanks
(35:18):
to my partner actually. She, she pretty much says
immediately what's on her mind and what she's thinking.
And I mean everyone like she's, she's like a capybara person.
Like everybody gets along with her, everybody loves her.
But I noticed even though she'd sometimes be like incredibly
blunt with what she was thinkingand what she was saying, people
want to hear her opinion. And they actually like, you
know, want to hear her advice and they appreciate her
bluntness because they know thatshe's not going to beat around
(35:41):
the Bush or try and like protecttheir feelings about it.
She's just going to tell them the way it is.
And I think for me as someone who is a bit of a beat around
the Bush, protect feelings kind of person, seeing that people
were fully accepting of that trait that I would be a bit
afraid to be like myself. I sort of just started trying to
almost communicate things that would be a little bit quirky or
(36:04):
strange, but sort of just more in a like, hey, giving you a
heads up way. Like I'm, I'm a horrible texter.
I, I'm horrible at text correspondence and social media.
I'm basically, if you message me, you can expect a response to
come in a few days to a week because I basically message by
carrier pigeon. And I used to try so hard to
promptly respond to everyone that was communicating with me
(36:24):
within minutes. And then it just got so
exhausting and now it's like I may take a few days to respond.
It's not that I dislike you. It's, it's not that I'm upset
with you in any way. It's just the way I am.
And, you know, I found that's a lot healthier in terms of
interacting with people I care about and people I know because
they know that our relationship is fine.
It's just that I'm bad at texting.
(36:45):
And I think, you know, people are a lot more accepting of, of
those, those differences and those quirks that I think we, we
sort of internally perceive because we've got this baseline
perception of normal that we're trying to adhere to.
But it's sort of the same, the same example of like, how often
do you know the specific things about other people compared to
yourself, right? And that applies to everyone.
(37:05):
So I find that really helps me. But it is a conscious effort,
yeah. It does.
And it takes like a lot of time to learn how to shift that
feeling of shame and guilt that you have in response to on like,
I'm a bad texter, I'm a bad friend because I can't respond
as quickly as other people or something that I would always
(37:27):
say to myself is I'm just so lazy.
Like how can I not do the thingsthat seem so mundane to people
like responding quickly to my friend or being able to just
like put my clothes away or justlike wash that dish or, you
know, just like very mundane things.
And it's taken a long time to shift that into I'm not lazy.
(37:49):
My brain just is literally wireddifferently.
And yeah, it it, it's a journey.So I completely relate to that.
And I love that you kind of mentioned with your partner and
I think this really leads reallynicely into our final topic of
this podcast about neurodivergent superpowers.
(38:09):
And I was almost thinking when you were saying that, that it
that sounds like her superpower,like just being able to tell it
how it is and respond really honestly and bluntly.
And the right people will respond to her.
And those are her people. And I think a lot of the
discussion around neurodivergence at the moment,
(38:31):
it's focusing on the deficits of, of neurodivergence or all of
the bad things that, or the difficult things that happen in
everyday life. And while those do have merit
and they do impact people, I think it's really important that
we highlight the incredible strengths that come along with
neurodivergent ways of thinking.So this is our opportunity to
(38:54):
flip the script right here. I want to know what you think
some of your neurodivergent superpowers are, or the
superpowers that you've noticed in other people, or maybe the
strengths. I don't know.
I, I'd love to hear from you guys first because I'm like.
Oh yeah, let's start. It's that thing where our brains
(39:14):
just naturally kind of wired to think about all the deficits or
the the the difficult things. So I need a minute with this
one. But yeah, I'm keen to hear what
you guys have to say. Well, again, I don't know if
this technically is my neuro divergent or my masking.
It gets a little bit like mixed together.
(39:35):
Yeah. But I do think that I am really
full of energy, which I think allows me to be like a really
welcoming person and really makepeople feel welcome and invited
to things. And I think that's nice.
I love that. Well, you very much are that
person, whether it's masking or not.
(39:57):
Is there. It's it's within me, yeah.
It's you, yeah. Exactly.
I think in in other people, I'veactually got a like, I've got a
mate who's brilliant at Rubik's Cube.
So he come on, he he like, he starts off with you sort of like
3 by three by three sort of Rubik tube.
But I saw him once get like a star shaped Rubik's Cube that
(40:19):
has like 5 things per segment. And he's and he can just like
solve it in like 10 to 30 seconds.
And it's I'm like, how, how? But I think for me, it's sort of
like this, like I'd call it likea silver lining superpower, But
because the way at least I experience ADHD is my train of
focus is quite literally like a train.
And it's moving at all times. But I have to almost jump on the
(40:42):
moving train and it could arriveanywhere between 12:00 PM in the
middle of the day and 11:00 PM at night.
And I can't control when that train comes along, but if I can
catch the train, I can, I can focus on something really
efficiently. So it means, you know, in terms
of uni, that means that unfortunately, my best strategy
for assignments is all nighters in one go, rough time and well
(41:04):
managed. But on the flip side, that means
I only have to worry about that assignment for one night.
And I think as well it's, it's sort of built up my willpower
over time. And I think, you know,
especially with physical activities, the only thing that
sort of stops me from completingthat physical activity, even if
it's really taxing and really difficult, is if I were to, to
(41:26):
give up on it. So, you know, as a little bit of
a, a game sort of I, I went to a, a friend's wedding recently
and they jokingly said they wereexcited to see me dance.
And so I was like, oh, that's myassignment.
I'm going to dance and keep the dance floor alive for the rest
of the guests as long as I can. And I ended up dancing for four
hours straight because it was sort of this thing where even
(41:47):
though it, it can be physically taxing for me, I think because I
want to, I, I sort of can in a weird way.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think for me it's, I remember
everything, conversations, dates, events.
That's so cool. And I say how it is like, there
(42:09):
is no field to like, if you're going to do something and then
say something else, I'm just going to call you out on it.
Yes, it's a bad habit. But most of the time it's yeah,
I think my main supervisor is just remembering things like,
what's that in a conversation? It's like, no, this happened.
Nope, this is how it happened specifically but.
(42:30):
Actually, let me love my thing of evidence right here.
Like I have stuff to back it up as well.
Yeah. So it's just, yeah, remembering
it does become a pain as well, no?
It's superpower. Yeah.
We're flipping the script very good.
(42:51):
I have a few things but I think my main 1 is my insane
empathetic Dr. and like my my emotions.
I think one thing for me, like with my ADHD is that I feel such
strong emotions. It's like a whole body
experience, whether that's I'm excited about something, feels
(43:13):
like there is fire in my bones, or whether that is like I am
upset about something called angry.
Like it's like a whole body sensation.
And I think with my empathy as well, like I'm very empathetic
person and I always have been. And I didn't quite understand
that when I was a teenager and it was quite overwhelming.
(43:34):
But now it's, it means that I can just connect with people.
And especially like when you surround yourself with other
neurodivergent people and peoplethat like, you can just click
and you connect and it's amazing.
And then also just being so passionate, like I'm so
passionate about advocacy and I'm so passionate about like so
(43:55):
much love to give. If you know, I don't know.
It's like a big it's all the feelings.
Yeah, no. I get that.
I think like I'm going to jump on your van way about you're
just feeling things. And it's something that I hear
from a lot of my friends actually.
And it often comes as like a deficit of like, Oh, I wish I
(44:17):
just like didn't feel the way that I did as much as I like as
often as I did. Or why am I like, constantly
still thinking about this thing,like as if it's the worst thing
in the world. But I am always just like,
wouldn't you rather like feel these things so much more
intensely than not at all? Like, I think that's such a
(44:38):
positive thing. And while it is scary and while
we maybe need to reframe that inour minds and the way that we
feel about it, I think it's a really positive.
It's a superpower like that. We can feel so deeply about
certain things. I was going to say in terms of
my specific neurodivergence of superpower is more specifically
(45:01):
tied to like those fixations or their special interests.
I have like on repeat and annualfixation with the Titanic.
So if you want to talk about theTitanic, let me know.
I. Didn't have a fixation.
Yeah, yeah. It's just like those little
things like I, I know, I know a lot.
So I'd say that's my current superpower, just like little
(45:24):
random life, things that happen,I really gravitate towards.
So not that that was little or random.
That was kind of big moment in history, actually, but it's.
Going to say, I don't think I made it past when I realized the
boat was thinking. I got too.
I got too emotional. I had to like not I couldn't
watch it anymore. I was like, Nah, I'm out.
(45:45):
No, OK, it's devastating, but like if you watch a documentary
of it under the sea or the oceanat the moment, Oh my God, so
fascinating. I think there was a point when I
was in high school I did like full on research.
Yeah, it. Was like an extensive research.
There's got to be a club out there or something like Titanic
(46:08):
enthusiasts or something. Not that you're like enthused
about it happening, but just, you know, it's.
Happened, you know, Yes. But not trying to replicate this
in history. There's a podcast called Girl
Historians and they talk about. Girl stories, girl historians.
Oh girl. And they talk about the Titanic.
It's really, they're doing it quite a funny way.
(46:29):
I think they OK. Like.
It but did you watch Ocean Gate to documentary?
No, it's on Netflix. She says she's the yeah, and
then she's. OK, no, when I say expert, I'm
just watching the same documentary over again annually.
Like I'm not exploring anything new.
You're not just ringing the dopamine.
(46:50):
Yeah, I'm going back to my familiarity.
Yeah, true. Love familiar with World War 2
history? Yeah, I'm not.
I know, but like I know but it'sit's more the fact that how it
happened. And so complicated.
Yeah, so much so. Complicated, but it's just it.
This conversation reminds me just one thing I wanna preface
(47:11):
because we were things like yourADHD fixation.
I just oh, I can't stop ringing the dopamine out of certain
things. Yeah, like it will be.
Oh, what TV series are you watching right now?
I'm watching the same TV series I was watching when I was 10
years. Ago.
Stop. I'm watching the version every
year repeatedly. Yeah, yeah, I was like, and I
never get sick of it. True.
(47:31):
Never, never get sick of it. And it's like same with.
What's your TV shows? Oh God.
I don't want to say it on that I'm.
Saying Glee so. No, I'm actually.
I'm gonna watch. Well, no, not to the extent
Dance Academy. Oh.
My good. No, that's not that's.
Not and that's like. A lot of people would relate to
that. Yeah, I got to say though, I
(47:52):
think, I think that is another like superpower thing, like
unlocking someone's like fixation.
It's like it's like this sudden library of knowledge about
specific things has been opened up or I've got like I've got
specific things, like I've got my like, you know, different
universes and different fictional settings.
I love, but I also think it's sort of like the random trivia
(48:13):
knowledge I tend to just passively accrue on my like
Wikipedia and I'm almost weirdlygrateful for, even though I
can't control what information is retained because my like my
Co workers always joke. I'll come out with a random fact
and then we always joke like Philomena Kunk, like the, the
bit where she's like in ancient Egypt, the most significant
thing you could do in life was die.
It's like, I can, I can just like, we'll be talking about
(48:34):
something and I'll be like, oh, did you know this, this, this
and this? And they're like, how do you
know that, that that's like so fulfilling.
But when you have someone else explaining something they're
passionate about in great detail, like I've got a couple
of friends who like will love a particular video game or love a
particular series and they'll bebreaking it down for me.
And obviously some people be like, oh, that's really
annoying. But I feel privileged to be able
(48:55):
to hear sort of the the culmination of that passion.
And they're trying so, you know,earnestly to convey that
information to me in a way that,you know, will make me feel
equally as passionate about it. And I think that's a really
special thing, yes. We are the best teammate on a
quiz team, yeah. Yeah, 100% for sure.
(49:16):
OK, maybe we don't maybe like certain categories, but just
also this random like general knowledge.
Yes, yeah, pop me on your team. But specifically Titanic.
Yeah, honestly, I could list offa few, but yeah, if, if there's
got a, if there's a quiz night out there, that's Titanic thing,
(49:37):
I'm gonna be there. Amazing.
Well, that was a fun conversation.
There's so many things that are important to talk about when it
comes to neurodivergence. I think it's really important
that we end on just maybe reflecting on one thing that we
(49:57):
wish people better understood about neurodiversity, because
being neurodivergent, it doesn'tmean being broken or you're
weird. It's just we all have different
experiences and our brains are all different and the world
needs all of those types of brains and that uniqueness.
(50:18):
So what's one thing that we wishpeople knew about neurodiversity
or the biggest take away from this podcast?
I think one thing that I am, I'mpretty, I'm I'm in it right now.
This is what I'm like need to hear as well is that it is such
a broad banner and it is a spectrum neurodiversity and it
(50:40):
is like they were finding out more information about it all
the time and all these other things.
There are people when they will say comments like everyone is a
little bit neurodivergent or everyone's sort of things like
that. And whether that's the case or
not that everyone has their quirks or not.
I think the one thing for me that I just like to think of is
(51:05):
everyone has their own lived experiences.
If you are experiencing something that affects you so
deeply that it is impacting youreveryday life, then that is
completely valid. And just because someone says,
oh, everyone's just got a littlebit everyone, yes, everyone has
(51:25):
a personality. Everyone can be who they are and
things like that. But some people are affected
more than others when it comes to things like that.
And if it's impacting your dailylife and all of those things,
then don't feel like it's not valid If someone says that
comment because it. Is yeah, I'm hearing that a lot
(51:48):
or that it's really like trendy to yeah, autistic or IED HD.
I don't think it's trendy at allThese are real disabilities that
really impact people on their everyday life and disabilities
Also an interesting time on thisspace.
Some people really gravitate towards resonating with neo
(52:08):
diversity as a disability. Some people don't.
So take that as you personally respond to it.
But yeah, when no one's just jumping on this bat bandwagon
because they want attention, they're they're doing it because
it affects their real everyday life and it impacts things that
they're noticing that maybe other people aren't impacted by
(52:31):
as much. So I'm very much.
And jumping off of that from both of you again as well, I
feel like even though things impact me because of how highly
I'm asked, I still feel like I'mnot valid.
And it's not like I don't deserve to have that clarity
(52:52):
around like what's going on for me.
And so I think even again for myself, like what you're saying,
I think I myself and wish other people as well would know that
it is a valid experience like you say.
Yeah. Yeah, they're piggybacking off
what I was just. Piggybacking.
Yeah, what I usually tell peopleis it's fine to be different.
(53:14):
Like you don't have to be the same as the next person.
Yes, in certain settings you do have to tone it down a bit, but
just be yourself. Like on my own self, like
regardless of what setting I'm in, I tweak myself a bit, but
otherwise it's just be yourself,Yeah.
Don't change anything for anyoneunless it's needed.
(53:39):
But yeah. I guess on the bandwagon
conversation before I say my point, I think the, the, the
really thing that's kind of annoying about people talking
about it like it's a trend is there is literal psychological
and psychiatric backing. Like it's like it is a
diagnosable condition. And I think that's a really
important thing to remember because it's not like it's like,
oh, I'm going to go to the trendy psychiatrist, get a
(54:01):
trendy diagnosis so that I can hold this trendy piece of paper.
It's not like that at all. And it's usually you're seeing
someone because it's impacting your life in some way, shape or
form and you're, you're looking to understand yourself better.
But I guess my my final point onthe sort of final question is,
and it might sound a bit broad, but compassion doesn't require
relation or to or understanding of someone else's experience.
(54:25):
You can be compassionate withoutgetting it, for lack of a better
term. Like sure, some people are going
to put sock sock shoe shoe on, but it's not actually that big a
deal. If someone wants to put sock
shoe sock shoe. And you don't have to be like
why do you put sock, shoe, sock shoe, What's the problem?
You should be putting sock, sock, shoe, shoe.
Like it doesn't matter. And you shouldn't have to be
(54:46):
able to relate to someone wanting to put sock, shoe, sock
shoe on to respect that they just got to put sock, shoe, sock
shoe on. Even if you're not 2 shoes.
That's the the best way I can think to explain it.
But it's sort of like you don't have to get it.
You just, you can still be compassionate about it.
Yeah, yeah. I love that.
I think that's the perfect metaphor to end this episode and
to leave people with that's lostit.
(55:10):
She's gonna go home and be like,what I do?
Do I do so. So she should.
I've never thought of that metaphor before.
I'm just like, my mind is blown.Thank you.
No, we have talked about some really great things and I thank
all of you for sharing your veryvulnerable personal experiences
or the experiences of others that you've noticed in your
(55:31):
life. There are so many amazing
resources out there that will belisted and we'll we'll list our
favourites in the show notes. So if you are interested in
exploring this topic a little bit further or you're
neurodivergent yourself and you want to maybe access some tools
or resources to support you in your everyday life, we will have
those in our show notes. So please refer to them if
(55:53):
needed. As always, if this episode has
brought up anything for you and you would like to chat to
somebody, we also list some amazing help lines and support
services in our show notes as well.
So please utilize them or come and speak to somebody at
Headspace. If you want to know a bit more
about Headspace, we've got a whole first episode on
everything that we do and the amazing services that we offer.
(56:16):
So thank you guys so much for this incredible episode.
We're really excited for Part 2 of this episode, which will be
with a clinical educator on neurodiversity, bit more of AQ
and a style. So if you have any questions
that you are interested in having the answer to by somebody
in this profession, pop them in the comments or send us AD send
(56:40):
us Adm and we will pop them on our notes to ask our very
educated professional more to come on that.
But yeah, thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you
very, very soon. Thanks everyone.
Thank you. Bye.
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