October 28, 2025 • 28 mins
In part 2 of our neurodivergence spotlight, we’re joined by Esther Fidock, clinical educator and founder of The Neuro Nurture Collective, for a deeper conversation about what it means to be neuro-affirming.
Esther explores how young people experience neurodivergence in everyday life; unpacking terms like masking and shares practical ways to support neurodivergent young people at school, work, and in friendships.
Whether you’re neurodivergent yourself, supporting someone who is, or just curious about how to be a better ally, this episode is full of insight and hope.
headspace resources:
- headspace – what is autism?
- headspace – what is ADHD?
- headspace Centres – find your local service
- headspace Work & Study – free, inclusive career and study support
Neurodivergent Resources:
- The Neuro Nurture Collective – Assessments and therapy: https://www.theneuronurturecollective.com/
- Reframing Autism – Education, advocacy and community: https://reframingautism.org.au/
- ADHD Australia – Awareness and practical support: https://www.adhdaustralia.org.au/
- Amaze – Autism support and inclusion resources: https://www.amaze.org.au/
- Apps for executive functioning skills: https://adayinourshoes.com/apps-executive-functioning-adults-students/
- The Year I Met My Brain – Matilda Boseley
- The ADHD Brain Buddy – Matilda Boseley
- Colour Me Neurospicy
- Neurodivergent Burnout: https://neurodivergentinsights.com/autism-and-adhd-burnout/srsltid=AfmBOoqgCAGnM2mjZMIN8GHsOuOAyyHEzdhmt2FeBvQ-8RRjbmvaJ1CT
- Spoon Theory: https://neurodivergentinsights.com/the-neurodivergent-spoon-drawer-spoon-theory-foradhders-and-autists/srsltid=AfmBOop0XFRk3swBFezBd1nZNP4J-yqMkHLBogBzb6AeVnp5xgHHdbLR
Watch our video podcast now on YouTube or via Spotify,Apple Podcasts or your favourite podcast platform.
This episode was created by Ally (Senior Community Engagement Officer, headspace Adelaide) and Esther Fidock (clinical educator and founder of The Neuro Nurture Collective).
To learn more about headspace centres, visit: https://headspace.org.au/ or connect with your local headspace centre on social media.
Led by headspace Adelaide, in partnership with headspaceEdinburgh North, headspace Marion, headspace Onkaparinga and Sonder. The podcast project is brought to you by our centre’s Youth Reference Groups. It is a headspace Adelaide Youth Reference Group initiative.
Produced by Shane (Youth Services Community Engagement Team Leader, Sonder) and Ally (Senior Community Engagement Officer, headspace Adelaide), recorded and edited by Rory at Podbooth Studios, Adelaide.
Recorded on Kaurna Country. Acknowledgment of country voiced by Yanni (Aboriginal Peer Support Worker, headspace Adelaide).
If you or someone you know is in need of crisis or suicide prevention support, please contact:
- Lifeline on 13 11 14 (Australia)
- Kids Helpline on 1800 55 1800 (Australia)
Disclaimer: Views and opinions expressed in this podcastare from young people and staff involved at Sonder’s headspace centres, or are guests invited to be interviewed. Information provided should not be taken as clinical advice.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Hi, my name's Yani. I'm an Aboriginal peer support
worker at Headspace Adelaide. I'd like to acknowledge that the
land we operate from and a meeting on right now is the land
of the Ghana people. I pay my respects to their
Elders, past, present and future, and acknowledge
Headspace's commitment to makinga positive contribution to young
people who are Aboriginal. Hi everybody, and welcome back
(00:30):
to Headspace Sessions Adelaide. Podcast.
My name is Ali and welcome back to Part 2 of our Neurodiversity
Spotlight. If you watched Part 1 you would
have seen I was with my other lovely Co host and we had a
really, really great chat breaking down our own
(00:53):
experiences of neurodiversity and what it meant to us.
And I alluded to a really special Part 2 that was coming
soon and here we are. We are joined by a very special
guest today, Esther, who is a registered psychologist from the
Neuronurture Collective. Before we get into today's
episode, I'm going to do a little icebreaker as per usual.
(01:17):
And I thought it would be reallycool if we did a bit of this or
that with Esther. So I'm going to throw you a
bunch of this or that questions,not literally throw you just
just verbally and you let me. Know catch?
Yeah, yeah. You let me know what you prefer
and we'll do a very quick rapid fire.
OK? You ready?
Yes, sure. I don't get to ask you any of
(01:41):
this or that, no. I'm just asking you.
Yeah, that's good. No one needs to know about me.
OK. All right.
Coffee or tea? Tea.
Early bird or not owl. Oh.
God, I think I'm neither. I like to start my day at like
10:00. OK, So whatever that is, am I
allowed to say neither or is? Yeah.
(02:02):
That's that's fine. That's fine.
Music or silence when focusing. Music lo fi Yeah.
One big task or 10 tiny little ones?
I think 10 tiny little ones, yeah.
Notes app or a notebook? Notebook for sure, yeah.
(02:24):
Routine or spontaneity? I love a good routine.
Reading or podcasts? Reading sorry, sorry to the
podcast. It's fun.
And final one, cats or dogs? Oh.
I have a beautiful old girl, ourdog Luna, but we just got a
(02:46):
kitten on Saturday, so maybe I'll say cat, but just like
because we just got a kitten. Yeah, don't, don't show Luna.
Sorry, Luna. Yeah.
I'm also a cat. Person.
Yeah, OK. Yes.
So that's something you can knowabout me today.
I'm a cat person. Wow.
That's so amazing. Thank you for that.
I feel like I know you already. I would love to hear more
(03:10):
specifically about you and the amazing work that you do before
we jump into a very long list ofquestions that we have all about
neurodiversity. So yeah, can you please tell us
a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Yeah, so I'm a psychologist and I have previously worked in a
clinic working with children andfamilies, but I left the clinic
(03:30):
to start my own business a few years ago.
So now I have the Neuro Nurture Collective where I do autism
assessments online for adults, and I also have a team of people
who do therapy and also assessments as well.
So I do that largely. And I'm also organizing a
conference next year and I do a lot of like trainings and
consulting and all that kind of thing on autism and ADHD
(03:52):
specifically. Wow.
You sound very busy. Well, I mean, it's hard to say
no to things that you're really passionate about, I think.
So sometimes I find myself taking on a lot because I'm so
passionate about getting neurodiversity affirming
practice out there into the world, which is why everything I
do really is trying to get this affirming practice way of being
(04:13):
into mental health spaces. So yeah, it's cup feeling as
much as it is sometimes a littlebit tiring I suppose, Yeah.
Absolutely. What kind of drew you to working
in this space? Well, I guess like, if I go all
the way back, all the way back, all the way back to like
kindergarten, yeah. I was just always the kid that
would become friendly with all of the kids who had disabilities
(04:36):
in the kidney space. Like my best friend had cerebral
palsy and I would just play withhim the whole time I was there.
And that kind of just translatedall the way through school.
In primary school, I went to a school that had what was called
the special Ed unit. And I spent all my time in the
special Ed unit with the kids inthere.
And just as I grew, I just, I guess, was always drawn to
working, particularly with children who I guess I didn't
(04:58):
really realize over time, but mostly drawn to supporting
autistic ADHD kids. I worked in therapy spaces.
I worked in like, you know, childcare and stuff like that.
I worked in inclusion spaces. And then eventually along the
way, which I think happens to a lot of people who are
symbolized, I realized I was autistic ADHD.
And I was like, that makes sense, actually makes sense.
(05:20):
So I guess from there I had a really lovely experience through
that kind of assessment process.And I was like, I want to be
able to provide people that assessment experience as well.
So that really led me to moving into this space where I provide
assessments. And then naturally, you know,
I'm doing assessments and I'm trying to find places to send
people for therapy. And that was quite tricky.
So then I guess that just led onto starting a clinic where I
(05:40):
have people that I trust that I know, I can say, well, if you
want to try this person, I know that they're going to have this
particular approach that I have in my assessment.
So I guess it's quite a long wayof describing how I got here,
but it's like I feel like it's just always been in my genes
that I'm going to end up in thistype of space, I guess.
Yeah, no, I, I can, I can sense that passion that's coming from
(06:01):
you. And what was going through my
mind is I feel like that's such a neurodivergent thing to be
like, I don't know anybody who can do that, so I'm going to do
it myself. It's.
So true. Yeah, I.
Guess I'm just kidding. I have the control.
Yeah, absolutely. I'm so.
Yeah, I'm, I'm so specific about, you know, like when I
hire people, I'm like, you got to, you got to do things in a
(06:23):
very specific way, not in like amicromanaging way, but like you
have to have, you have to be trauma informed, right?
Like you have to know what you're doing in that realm.
I'm not going to have anyone who's going to inadvertently re
traumatize clients. Like I'm very specific about the
way I approach things. Yeah.
Yeah. We talked about our own
experiences of neurodivergence in Part 1, and we talked about
(06:45):
kind of what we first thought when we heard that term, or what
our first experience was with that term.
For any young people who might be listening, who might not be
familiar with neurodiversity, what does that term actually
mean? So I think neurodiversity, if we
conceptualize neurodiversity is like everyone, like we are all
(07:08):
neurodiverse, we all have different neuro types.
If we think about neurodivergent, then that's more
people who diverge from what might be typical, I suppose.
So neurodivergent, I think the terms are used interchangeably
when people don't really understand the difference.
And you know, people who are really passionate about
semantics, people might say theywork with neurodiversity.
(07:29):
What they actually mean is they work with like autistic or ADHD
is. But I think also on the other
side of that, sometimes people say neurodivergent without
realizing that neurodivergent actually means a whole host of
things, not just autism, ADHD. So you know, like acquired brain
injury fits neuro divergent, forexample, right.
But I like, I largely talk aboutautism and ADHD just because
(07:51):
that's my experience and that's where my biggest passion is.
But when we say neuro divergent we mean you have a whole host of
different experiences. Yeah.
See, I didn't know that, and that's great to hear from
somebody just about the difference between, yeah,
neurodiversity and neuro divergent.
So yeah, thank you for clearing that up.
(08:14):
We often will hear terms within this space like masking, burnout
and sensory overload. And I know we talked about
masking in Part 1 as well. From your perspective, how might
these terms show up in everyday life for a young person?
I think for a lot of young people, they're really
(08:36):
indoctrinated into thinking thatmasking is something that
everyone does. So I think for a lot of people
it can be hard to realize and maybe really confronting as well
when they end up in maybe mentalhealth services that they're
doing life on hard mode essentially and not realizing,
you know, how can everyone else just do this?
How can everyone else just go toschool and get things done?
(08:58):
Like why aren't they struggling with depression as much as I am?
Why aren't they so anxious abouteverything?
And I think it's because if considering right back to
reception, right, you first start school and maybe you're a
kid who's a little fidgety and you go and sit down on the mat.
You're not allowed to fidget, right?
Like you have to sit still, you can't move.
So right from the get go, you'regas lid into not trusting your
(09:21):
body and not understanding what you need to be able to function.
It's really like trained out of you from the get go.
And I think there's some people who maybe are able to mask and
force themselves to adhere to these neuro norms and that
develops into masking. And then there's other kids who
just constantly get in trouble. They're like the naughty kids,
(09:42):
the ones that get sent out the classroom or have like teachers
come and you know, take them or they go into the playground or
whatever it might be. And I think particularly the
ones who tend to do a lot of masking might get up to that age
of like year six or seven. And then it becomes really,
really difficult to maintain that mask or having to, there's
(10:04):
a few different elements of masking.
There is that kind of suppressing your natural
tendency. So if you're a fidgety person,
you're an ADHD and suppressing that need that your body has to
fidget. That's a type of masking and
that's really exhausting. If you're an autistic person and
you have to a mask by participating in small talk, not
really very interesting. You're having to be constantly
(10:26):
switched on to think about what am I going to say next?
How am I going to approach this conversation?
Like what do I do if the conversation like dies a little
bit? If you're constantly scripting
and planning conversations in your head, if you're exhausted
after them, then I think it all really kind of comes to a head
when relationships change from like, you know, when you play in
(10:48):
like year three, maybe up to year 4, you play in the
playground, but then you end up in high school and everything
turns into more like conversational based connection
really. And I think that's where a lot
of people like it all falls apart because you're having to
spend so much energy trying to maintain this version of
yourself that you think is a true version of yourself.
(11:08):
Because as far as you're concerned, you know, perhaps
that you know, there's just there's something wrong with me.
I find this so hard and but everyone else can do it.
So it must just be something that is wrong with me.
And then you end up in mental health services because, you
know, it's social anxiety or it's depression or it's OCD, All
of these other things that actually do really commonly Co
(11:29):
occur with autism and ADHD. I mean, I think perhaps that's
largely how I see masking show up, is it becomes so interwoven
with someone's identity that it can be really hard to start to
think about, OK, well, what doesmy body actually need?
Like when I freak out at the shops, what is it that's making
me freak out? Like, there's a lot of these
(11:51):
things that go together, but younever realize that they go
together because you had never considered what sensory
experiences are overwhelming to you, for example, because you've
never been allowed to. Yeah, maybe your parents always
called you really dramatic or oversensitive or whatever it
might have been. So you've grown up with this
idea of who you are as a person.That's not actually who you are
(12:12):
as a person. Maybe you're just someone who
truly does have a level of sensitivity which means that
your brain finds it extremely difficult to function in really
social neuronormative situations, or at the
supermarket or whatever that might.
Be. Yeah, yeah, that was a very well
summed up explanation of maskingand I'm sure something that a
(12:34):
lot of young people listening could resonate with.
And I'm, yeah, really grateful that you provided a few
different examples. I know we shared a few examples
of maybe how we noticed it showing up in our own personal
lives and we did talk about someof the ways that maybe we try to
manage or notice ourselves masking.
(12:57):
Yeah. Are there any particular things
that when it comes to D masking that you encourage your clients
or young people to do? Yeah, I think it's a real
process. And this is something that I, I
wish people understood from, youknow, when you're in reception
instead of saying just stop fidgeting, understanding that
(13:19):
your body works better when you fidget because you need that
stimulation from your environment.
That's just how your brain works.
And I wish that was also the case with autistic kids who are
kind of put into social skills programs.
So there's this thought of, you know, this kids struggling to
make friends. So we'll put them in this social
skills program and then they'll learn how to make friends and
(13:39):
that will fix all their problems.
But what happens is it just teaches them to mask more,
right? It just teaches them to follow
all of the protocols that neurotypical kids engage rather
than teaching them, okay, well here's the neurotypical way of
socially communicating. And here's the autistic way of
socially communicating or the ADHD a way of socially
(14:00):
communicating. Because if you can understand
the difference between those twothings, then you are empowered
to be able to make a decision asto which one you will be
participating in. So maybe there are some
circumstances where you feel like masking feels safe and that
is something that you want to beable to do.
So if you are support and supported how to do that and you
(14:21):
also know that masking is going to be very tiring for you, then
you can manage that. If you know you've got a very
important party to go to, like you've got someone's 18th, but
you only know them and you don'tknow any of their other friends
because they're all kind of pulled from, you know, different
schools and different friendships, but they're very
important to you and you want togo and show up for them.
You know that you're going to bemasking and you know that it's
going to be very tiring for you.So maybe that's the only thing
(14:43):
you plan for the whole weekend and you don't pack your weekend
full of other activities and youjust set yourself up in your
little kind of safe haven space at home because you understand
how exhausting it is to mask. You can kind of create these
buffers around the edges. And I think that's a really big
piece that's missing for a lot of young people is that's
exhausting. If you know how to do it, you
(15:05):
can do it if you feel like that's what you need to do.
Whereas I think like autistic communication or ADHD
communication, you might find that you naturally do this with
the friends that you feel most comfortable with.
ADHD is tend to share a lot of personal experience.
And it's not because they're trying to, like, one up one
another. Yeah.
Or like, make it about them necessarily.
(15:27):
It's just a way of saying I see you when I understand your
story, and I'm going to portray that by letting you know about a
time when that thing happened tome.
And it's really connective. So again, I think if you learn
and understand how different communication styles look, yeah,
then you can start to unravel which parts are masking and
which parts are truly who you are.
(15:49):
Yeah, no, I find that really interesting that you brought up
that it's actually a physiological need that young
people with ADHD or autism, especially that example about
fidgeting, that it is something that they need to do as opposed
to something. And I, I know I, I noticed this
a lot in like my own friendshipsthat they're like, oh, maybe if
(16:11):
I don't fidget then it won't be like a habit that I continue to
form or something that I feel the need to do.
It will just go away. Yeah.
But for somebody who actually has ADHD or autism, that's
something that they need to do and it won't ever go away.
It's it's just the way that their brain works.
So yeah, I think really interesting that.
(16:31):
Reframing, I think is so perfectbecause we know now from the
research that actually very autistic people, for example, is
that you don't desensitize to the sensory overwhelm in your
environment. What happens is you just learn
to suppress or mask your experience of distress.
So what happens is there is thatidea of like, OK, you find going
(16:53):
to the store hard. Well, just keep going to the
store and then eventually you'llget over it.
But for autistic people, what happens is that that
desensitization doesn't happen. You feel the same level of
distress every single time, but you learn to like, guess, like
yourself and be like, I'll get over it.
Like, you know, just come on, everyone else can do it.
(17:13):
But it doesn't actually minimizethat, I guess fatigue that you,
your brain and your body experience when you have to do
things that are taking it out ofyou like.
And that's so contradictory to like a lot of the psychology
approaches that like. Anxiety treatment, yeah.
You know, you're scared of goingto the supermarket.
Just go to the supermarket 1010 times over and it'll get better.
(17:37):
But that's so interesting that for young people who may have
autism or ADHD, that will never kind of happen for them, and
things need to be tailored accordingly.
Yeah. So yeah, I find that really.
Interesting, This is why it's soimportant to find someone who
does neurodiversity affirming practice.
Is that a lot of autistic peoplethat you see will also have
(17:58):
anxiety and they might also havesocial anxiety and it can become
so intricate and understanding what it is that's causing you to
feel that way is so important before you start trying to treat
it. You know, anxiety, we can treat
anxiety like if you're feeling anxious about something that is
quite treatable, but if you're autistic, you don't know you're
(18:19):
autistic, you're treating professional doesn't know that
you're autistic, then trying to manage that anxiety is probably
not gonna work because they're not doing it through that lens
of understanding. You know, okay, what actually is
it that's making you feel anxious?
And does that relate to your neurotype?
Because then you approach it differently.
Yeah, I think that's some reallygreat advice.
(18:42):
Speaking of advice, what would come to mind for you for a young
person who's just kind of navigating this experience
really early on? Maybe they've just been
listening to some of the things that you've been saying or
reading some books or looking uptheir own research, and they
think that they might be neurodivergent.
Where can they start? Yeah, good question.
(19:05):
I think going back as well to what you said about some of the
experience of like masking burnout, like sensory overload,
I think if you're experienced, if you're doing a lot of
masking, you might be experiencing burnout and you
know that sensory overload then I think impacts that as well.
So if you are feeling like this might be an experience that
(19:25):
matches for you, there's a lot of resources online and I know
that there's so much on like TikTok and stuff like that.
I guess my warning, that warningmight be too much of an
aggressive word, but a lot of people on the Internet, they get
diagnosed with ADHD and then they talk about their ADHG
experiences without realizing that they're also talking about
(19:46):
autism. Yeah.
So I guess my only hesitancy with recommending that is to.
Yeah, understand that there is adifference between the two and
supporting someone who's autistic looks a little bit
different than supporting an ADHD.
So I guess there's a lot of amazing resources like Reframing
Autism is a really good website that's an Australian based one.
(20:07):
They have so many like blog posts and resources and lived
experience. People contributing to their
website and there's Youtubers like How to ADHDI think her
name's Jessica McCabe. She has a lot of amazing ADHD
videos. Yo Sam de Sam.
Yeah, an autism specific one. I think there's might be getting
a little bit older now, but I guess also seeking out other
(20:32):
people or professionals who are in this kind of area too.
You can find like professionals who are autistic, ADHD as
themselves and have that experience, that lived
experience to support you. So I guess yeah, maybe those are
my look for. If you look for someone who says
that they're a neurodiversity affirming clinician, they're
(20:52):
gonna use different language than other people.
They're gonna have a more of an understanding of specific neuro
types so they can support you more effectively I think.
And there's comorbidities. Yeah, because that does happen.
Yeah, yeah. What about for the people that
are trying to support young people who may be
neurodivergent, like friends, family, peers?
(21:14):
How can they support someone through that journey?
Yeah, I think developing a good understanding yourself, again,
there's so many amazing, there'spodcasts, there's books, like
there's so many amazing resources out there.
So I think giving yourself that psycho education about
understanding their experience, I think that's really important
because often, like what I said earlier and autistic ADHD really
(21:38):
suppresses their experience. And they might not even realize
that they're feeling distressed by certain things in their
environment or routine or whatever it might be.
So they might not be able to tell you what it is that's
wrong. But if you notice that something
is wrong, then being able to support them.
And I think that non judgmental real, like unconditional love
(22:01):
type of support and approach andunderstanding that one of the
things that happens for people who are really highly masking
when they start to edge towards burnout is that they lose the
ability to mask. So they might start coming
across as really rude or really aloof or really abrupt because
masking involves adding all of this like social padding when
(22:22):
you're writing an e-mail. It's like, hi, I hope you're
going well. Like all of those things become
just impossible to do because you don't have the cognitive
capacity anymore. And in the kind of
neuronormative environment that comes across as very rude.
So I guess what I'm saying is that if you can allow someone to
be themselves and not judge themand not take it personally when
(22:44):
they start behaving in ways thatmaybe are different than what
you're used to, I think that canbe really helpful.
The amount of times that I've just wanted to like send an
e-mail without being like, hi, Ihope you're well warm regards.
Like, Oh my God, the weather on the weekends, like just, I want
to get straight into the subjectof the message.
(23:04):
I know. I so get that.
Yeah, I so get that. This is what's good about
working in a business where likeeveryone at work, like all of
the clients that I see, you know, they're all off stick.
So like, it's fine to talk like this.
Yeah, yeah. But it, it's, it's that point of
really getting to know your young person because as we've
mentioned in previous episodes and, and this one as well, every
(23:28):
person's brain is so different. But especially for an autistic
ADHD, they're not going to be the same as if you put two
people next to each other who might present with both ADHD and
autism, they're not going to maybe present with the same
traits. So it's really important to get
to know your young person, find out what they need or maybe what
(23:48):
is more challenging for them or just what their current fixation
is at the moment to to get to know them.
And yeah, I think that's a really important point.
Yeah, being able to know like what someones current safe
foods, right. Like there's these
neurodivergent love languages oflike being able to make someone
their safe food or bring that tothem.
(24:09):
Not having any expectation of social interaction, but just
providing that support is so powerful.
We talked about this in Part 1 as well, and we shared some of
the common myths or misconceptions that we'd heard
in society around this space at the moment.
What are some that come to mind that you still hear that you'd
(24:30):
love to see change moving forward?
Or is there kind of one big one that?
I think I'll probably say like similar to the previous episode,
like that kind of idea that like, oh, everyone's getting
diagnosed nowadays. I think that is this this really
pervasive idea of neuro norms, which is where you everyone
(24:52):
should just suck it up and get it done.
And I think there's that idea that, you know, for like ADHD is
or to see people, there's this idea that you're just, you know,
not trying hard enough. So if you just suck it up and
get it done, you'll be right. So I kind of I wish that there
was more understanding of that'snot actually how it works.
Like for an autistic person, theway that their brain works is
(25:12):
that actually their sensory world is completely exhausting
and overwhelming for them. You can't suck it up.
You just you can't do that. You have to manage your
environment. So I guess maybe I wish that
that was more well known is thatit's not like, oh, it'd be nice
if the lights were a bit more dim in here.
It's like these bright lights. I'm going to have a migraine
later, you know, like, I think Iwish that that was more
(25:35):
understood. Yeah.
Like it's less of a choice, moreof like a need.
Yes, Yeah, we all, whether you're neurodivergent or not, we
all have needs. And actually realizing that,
yeah, the consequences of not meeting those needs for anyone
could be detrimental. But especially for someone who's
(25:55):
presenting with with neurodivergence, it can be
exceptionally more impactful. So having that understanding is
really important. Yes.
You've shared so much wonderful stuff and I know anyone
listening to you will hopefully take away something from this
episode. I've got one final question for
(26:17):
you and it's just you've kind ofanswered it through a lot of
your questions so far. But overall, what's one small
change that anybody listening could help make to create a more
neuro firming world or even likeworkplace or in their school
environment? You know what's one thing that
(26:38):
they can do? Yeah, I guess I, I wish that
everyone was just understanding of differences, even if they're
like a bit weird. Yeah, they're a bit weird.
Or like you, you're like, why are they doing that?
Like if they're not hurting anyone, then like, whatever, you
know, like I kind of just wish, I wish there was that kind of
(27:00):
overarching non judgmental nature of, you know, if people
are doing something weird, then like, whatever, yeah, who cares?
Like, I kind of wish that was just a thing.
I would love that too. That would be an ideal world.
Yeah. Hopefully with more
conversations being had about this, we will get there
(27:20):
eventually. Yeah, and I know it it hopefully
will happen with all of the amazing work that you continue
to do and people who are like minded continue to do in this
space. So thank you so much for coming
on our podcast and sharing all of the very informative things
that you did. We will have a little bit of a
(27:40):
chat later about some helpful resources that some listeners
might be able to navigate to in the episode notes.
So if you have really gravitatedto some of the things that
Esther has mentioned, we will include some helpful resources
in our show notes that you can explore whenever you're ready.
We also as a reminder, if anything in this episode has
(28:03):
brought up anything for you, please utilize our support
service. That's services that we also
list in our episode notes. But if it is an emergency
situation, please utilize Lifeline or 000 in those
circumstances. Thank you so much again for
being a part of that episode today.
We are so thankful for you coming on and sharing the
(28:25):
knowledge that you did. We can't wait to come back for
our next episode and. Yeah, hopefully.
We'll have a bit more things to chat about on camera.
Hi, my name's Yani. I'm an Aboriginal peer support
worker at Headspace Adelaide. I'd like to acknowledge that the
land we operate from and a meeting on right now is the land
of the Ghana people. I pay my respects to their
Elders, past, present and future, and acknowledge
Headspace's commitment to makinga positive contribution to young
people who are Aboriginal. Hi everybody, and welcome back
(00:30):
to Headspace Sessions Adelaide. Podcast.
My name is Ali and welcome back to Part 2 of our Neurodiversity
Spotlight. If you watched Part 1 you would
have seen I was with my other lovely Co host and we had a
really, really great chat breaking down our own
(00:53):
experiences of neurodiversity and what it meant to us.
And I alluded to a really special Part 2 that was coming
soon and here we are. We are joined by a very special
guest today, Esther, who is a registered psychologist from the
Neuronurture Collective. Before we get into today's
episode, I'm going to do a little icebreaker as per usual.
(01:17):
And I thought it would be reallycool if we did a bit of this or
that with Esther. So I'm going to throw you a
bunch of this or that questions,not literally throw you just
just verbally and you let me. Know catch?
Yeah, yeah. You let me know what you prefer
and we'll do a very quick rapid fire.
OK? You ready?
Yes, sure. I don't get to ask you any of
(01:41):
this or that, no. I'm just asking you.
Yeah, that's good. No one needs to know about me.
OK. All right.
Coffee or tea? Tea.
Early bird or not owl. Oh.
God, I think I'm neither. I like to start my day at like
10:00. OK, So whatever that is, am I
allowed to say neither or is? Yeah.
(02:02):
That's that's fine. That's fine.
Music or silence when focusing. Music lo fi Yeah.
One big task or 10 tiny little ones?
I think 10 tiny little ones, yeah.
Notes app or a notebook? Notebook for sure, yeah.
(02:24):
Routine or spontaneity? I love a good routine.
Reading or podcasts? Reading sorry, sorry to the
podcast. It's fun.
And final one, cats or dogs? Oh.
I have a beautiful old girl, ourdog Luna, but we just got a
(02:46):
kitten on Saturday, so maybe I'll say cat, but just like
because we just got a kitten. Yeah, don't, don't show Luna.
Sorry, Luna. Yeah.
I'm also a cat. Person.
Yeah, OK. Yes.
So that's something you can knowabout me today.
I'm a cat person. Wow.
That's so amazing. Thank you for that.
I feel like I know you already. I would love to hear more
(03:10):
specifically about you and the amazing work that you do before
we jump into a very long list ofquestions that we have all about
neurodiversity. So yeah, can you please tell us
a little bit about yourself and what you do?
Yeah, so I'm a psychologist and I have previously worked in a
clinic working with children andfamilies, but I left the clinic
(03:30):
to start my own business a few years ago.
So now I have the Neuro Nurture Collective where I do autism
assessments online for adults, and I also have a team of people
who do therapy and also assessments as well.
So I do that largely. And I'm also organizing a
conference next year and I do a lot of like trainings and
consulting and all that kind of thing on autism and ADHD
(03:52):
specifically. Wow.
You sound very busy. Well, I mean, it's hard to say
no to things that you're really passionate about, I think.
So sometimes I find myself taking on a lot because I'm so
passionate about getting neurodiversity affirming
practice out there into the world, which is why everything I
do really is trying to get this affirming practice way of being
(04:13):
into mental health spaces. So yeah, it's cup feeling as
much as it is sometimes a littlebit tiring I suppose, Yeah.
Absolutely. What kind of drew you to working
in this space? Well, I guess like, if I go all
the way back, all the way back, all the way back to like
kindergarten, yeah. I was just always the kid that
would become friendly with all of the kids who had disabilities
(04:36):
in the kidney space. Like my best friend had cerebral
palsy and I would just play withhim the whole time I was there.
And that kind of just translatedall the way through school.
In primary school, I went to a school that had what was called
the special Ed unit. And I spent all my time in the
special Ed unit with the kids inthere.
And just as I grew, I just, I guess, was always drawn to
working, particularly with children who I guess I didn't
(04:58):
really realize over time, but mostly drawn to supporting
autistic ADHD kids. I worked in therapy spaces.
I worked in like, you know, childcare and stuff like that.
I worked in inclusion spaces. And then eventually along the
way, which I think happens to a lot of people who are
symbolized, I realized I was autistic ADHD.
And I was like, that makes sense, actually makes sense.
(05:20):
So I guess from there I had a really lovely experience through
that kind of assessment process.And I was like, I want to be
able to provide people that assessment experience as well.
So that really led me to moving into this space where I provide
assessments. And then naturally, you know,
I'm doing assessments and I'm trying to find places to send
people for therapy. And that was quite tricky.
So then I guess that just led onto starting a clinic where I
(05:40):
have people that I trust that I know, I can say, well, if you
want to try this person, I know that they're going to have this
particular approach that I have in my assessment.
So I guess it's quite a long wayof describing how I got here,
but it's like I feel like it's just always been in my genes
that I'm going to end up in thistype of space, I guess.
Yeah, no, I, I can, I can sense that passion that's coming from
(06:01):
you. And what was going through my
mind is I feel like that's such a neurodivergent thing to be
like, I don't know anybody who can do that, so I'm going to do
it myself. It's.
So true. Yeah, I.
Guess I'm just kidding. I have the control.
Yeah, absolutely. I'm so.
Yeah, I'm, I'm so specific about, you know, like when I
hire people, I'm like, you got to, you got to do things in a
(06:23):
very specific way, not in like amicromanaging way, but like you
have to have, you have to be trauma informed, right?
Like you have to know what you're doing in that realm.
I'm not going to have anyone who's going to inadvertently re
traumatize clients. Like I'm very specific about the
way I approach things. Yeah.
Yeah. We talked about our own
experiences of neurodivergence in Part 1, and we talked about
(06:45):
kind of what we first thought when we heard that term, or what
our first experience was with that term.
For any young people who might be listening, who might not be
familiar with neurodiversity, what does that term actually
mean? So I think neurodiversity, if we
conceptualize neurodiversity is like everyone, like we are all
(07:08):
neurodiverse, we all have different neuro types.
If we think about neurodivergent, then that's more
people who diverge from what might be typical, I suppose.
So neurodivergent, I think the terms are used interchangeably
when people don't really understand the difference.
And you know, people who are really passionate about
semantics, people might say theywork with neurodiversity.
(07:29):
What they actually mean is they work with like autistic or ADHD
is. But I think also on the other
side of that, sometimes people say neurodivergent without
realizing that neurodivergent actually means a whole host of
things, not just autism, ADHD. So you know, like acquired brain
injury fits neuro divergent, forexample, right.
But I like, I largely talk aboutautism and ADHD just because
(07:51):
that's my experience and that's where my biggest passion is.
But when we say neuro divergent we mean you have a whole host of
different experiences. Yeah.
See, I didn't know that, and that's great to hear from
somebody just about the difference between, yeah,
neurodiversity and neuro divergent.
So yeah, thank you for clearing that up.
(08:14):
We often will hear terms within this space like masking, burnout
and sensory overload. And I know we talked about
masking in Part 1 as well. From your perspective, how might
these terms show up in everyday life for a young person?
I think for a lot of young people, they're really
(08:36):
indoctrinated into thinking thatmasking is something that
everyone does. So I think for a lot of people
it can be hard to realize and maybe really confronting as well
when they end up in maybe mentalhealth services that they're
doing life on hard mode essentially and not realizing,
you know, how can everyone else just do this?
How can everyone else just go toschool and get things done?
(08:58):
Like why aren't they struggling with depression as much as I am?
Why aren't they so anxious abouteverything?
And I think it's because if considering right back to
reception, right, you first start school and maybe you're a
kid who's a little fidgety and you go and sit down on the mat.
You're not allowed to fidget, right?
Like you have to sit still, you can't move.
So right from the get go, you'regas lid into not trusting your
(09:21):
body and not understanding what you need to be able to function.
It's really like trained out of you from the get go.
And I think there's some people who maybe are able to mask and
force themselves to adhere to these neuro norms and that
develops into masking. And then there's other kids who
just constantly get in trouble. They're like the naughty kids,
(09:42):
the ones that get sent out the classroom or have like teachers
come and you know, take them or they go into the playground or
whatever it might be. And I think particularly the
ones who tend to do a lot of masking might get up to that age
of like year six or seven. And then it becomes really,
really difficult to maintain that mask or having to, there's
(10:04):
a few different elements of masking.
There is that kind of suppressing your natural
tendency. So if you're a fidgety person,
you're an ADHD and suppressing that need that your body has to
fidget. That's a type of masking and
that's really exhausting. If you're an autistic person and
you have to a mask by participating in small talk, not
really very interesting. You're having to be constantly
(10:26):
switched on to think about what am I going to say next?
How am I going to approach this conversation?
Like what do I do if the conversation like dies a little
bit? If you're constantly scripting
and planning conversations in your head, if you're exhausted
after them, then I think it all really kind of comes to a head
when relationships change from like, you know, when you play in
(10:48):
like year three, maybe up to year 4, you play in the
playground, but then you end up in high school and everything
turns into more like conversational based connection
really. And I think that's where a lot
of people like it all falls apart because you're having to
spend so much energy trying to maintain this version of
yourself that you think is a true version of yourself.
(11:08):
Because as far as you're concerned, you know, perhaps
that you know, there's just there's something wrong with me.
I find this so hard and but everyone else can do it.
So it must just be something that is wrong with me.
And then you end up in mental health services because, you
know, it's social anxiety or it's depression or it's OCD, All
of these other things that actually do really commonly Co
(11:29):
occur with autism and ADHD. I mean, I think perhaps that's
largely how I see masking show up, is it becomes so interwoven
with someone's identity that it can be really hard to start to
think about, OK, well, what doesmy body actually need?
Like when I freak out at the shops, what is it that's making
me freak out? Like, there's a lot of these
(11:51):
things that go together, but younever realize that they go
together because you had never considered what sensory
experiences are overwhelming to you, for example, because you've
never been allowed to. Yeah, maybe your parents always
called you really dramatic or oversensitive or whatever it
might have been. So you've grown up with this
idea of who you are as a person.That's not actually who you are
(12:12):
as a person. Maybe you're just someone who
truly does have a level of sensitivity which means that
your brain finds it extremely difficult to function in really
social neuronormative situations, or at the
supermarket or whatever that might.
Be. Yeah, yeah, that was a very well
summed up explanation of maskingand I'm sure something that a
(12:34):
lot of young people listening could resonate with.
And I'm, yeah, really grateful that you provided a few
different examples. I know we shared a few examples
of maybe how we noticed it showing up in our own personal
lives and we did talk about someof the ways that maybe we try to
manage or notice ourselves masking.
(12:57):
Yeah. Are there any particular things
that when it comes to D masking that you encourage your clients
or young people to do? Yeah, I think it's a real
process. And this is something that I, I
wish people understood from, youknow, when you're in reception
instead of saying just stop fidgeting, understanding that
(13:19):
your body works better when you fidget because you need that
stimulation from your environment.
That's just how your brain works.
And I wish that was also the case with autistic kids who are
kind of put into social skills programs.
So there's this thought of, you know, this kids struggling to
make friends. So we'll put them in this social
skills program and then they'll learn how to make friends and
(13:39):
that will fix all their problems.
But what happens is it just teaches them to mask more,
right? It just teaches them to follow
all of the protocols that neurotypical kids engage rather
than teaching them, okay, well here's the neurotypical way of
socially communicating. And here's the autistic way of
socially communicating or the ADHD a way of socially
(14:00):
communicating. Because if you can understand
the difference between those twothings, then you are empowered
to be able to make a decision asto which one you will be
participating in. So maybe there are some
circumstances where you feel like masking feels safe and that
is something that you want to beable to do.
So if you are support and supported how to do that and you
(14:21):
also know that masking is going to be very tiring for you, then
you can manage that. If you know you've got a very
important party to go to, like you've got someone's 18th, but
you only know them and you don'tknow any of their other friends
because they're all kind of pulled from, you know, different
schools and different friendships, but they're very
important to you and you want togo and show up for them.
You know that you're going to bemasking and you know that it's
going to be very tiring for you.So maybe that's the only thing
(14:43):
you plan for the whole weekend and you don't pack your weekend
full of other activities and youjust set yourself up in your
little kind of safe haven space at home because you understand
how exhausting it is to mask. You can kind of create these
buffers around the edges. And I think that's a really big
piece that's missing for a lot of young people is that's
exhausting. If you know how to do it, you
(15:05):
can do it if you feel like that's what you need to do.
Whereas I think like autistic communication or ADHD
communication, you might find that you naturally do this with
the friends that you feel most comfortable with.
ADHD is tend to share a lot of personal experience.
And it's not because they're trying to, like, one up one
another. Yeah.
Or like, make it about them necessarily.
(15:27):
It's just a way of saying I see you when I understand your
story, and I'm going to portray that by letting you know about a
time when that thing happened tome.
And it's really connective. So again, I think if you learn
and understand how different communication styles look, yeah,
then you can start to unravel which parts are masking and
which parts are truly who you are.
(15:49):
Yeah, no, I find that really interesting that you brought up
that it's actually a physiological need that young
people with ADHD or autism, especially that example about
fidgeting, that it is something that they need to do as opposed
to something. And I, I know I, I noticed this
a lot in like my own friendshipsthat they're like, oh, maybe if
(16:11):
I don't fidget then it won't be like a habit that I continue to
form or something that I feel the need to do.
It will just go away. Yeah.
But for somebody who actually has ADHD or autism, that's
something that they need to do and it won't ever go away.
It's it's just the way that their brain works.
So yeah, I think really interesting that.
(16:31):
Reframing, I think is so perfectbecause we know now from the
research that actually very autistic people, for example, is
that you don't desensitize to the sensory overwhelm in your
environment. What happens is you just learn
to suppress or mask your experience of distress.
So what happens is there is thatidea of like, OK, you find going
(16:53):
to the store hard. Well, just keep going to the
store and then eventually you'llget over it.
But for autistic people, what happens is that that
desensitization doesn't happen. You feel the same level of
distress every single time, but you learn to like, guess, like
yourself and be like, I'll get over it.
Like, you know, just come on, everyone else can do it.
(17:13):
But it doesn't actually minimizethat, I guess fatigue that you,
your brain and your body experience when you have to do
things that are taking it out ofyou like.
And that's so contradictory to like a lot of the psychology
approaches that like. Anxiety treatment, yeah.
You know, you're scared of goingto the supermarket.
Just go to the supermarket 1010 times over and it'll get better.
(17:37):
But that's so interesting that for young people who may have
autism or ADHD, that will never kind of happen for them, and
things need to be tailored accordingly.
Yeah. So yeah, I find that really.
Interesting, This is why it's soimportant to find someone who
does neurodiversity affirming practice.
Is that a lot of autistic peoplethat you see will also have
(17:58):
anxiety and they might also havesocial anxiety and it can become
so intricate and understanding what it is that's causing you to
feel that way is so important before you start trying to treat
it. You know, anxiety, we can treat
anxiety like if you're feeling anxious about something that is
quite treatable, but if you're autistic, you don't know you're
(18:19):
autistic, you're treating professional doesn't know that
you're autistic, then trying to manage that anxiety is probably
not gonna work because they're not doing it through that lens
of understanding. You know, okay, what actually is
it that's making you feel anxious?
And does that relate to your neurotype?
Because then you approach it differently.
Yeah, I think that's some reallygreat advice.
(18:42):
Speaking of advice, what would come to mind for you for a young
person who's just kind of navigating this experience
really early on? Maybe they've just been
listening to some of the things that you've been saying or
reading some books or looking uptheir own research, and they
think that they might be neurodivergent.
Where can they start? Yeah, good question.
(19:05):
I think going back as well to what you said about some of the
experience of like masking burnout, like sensory overload,
I think if you're experienced, if you're doing a lot of
masking, you might be experiencing burnout and you
know that sensory overload then I think impacts that as well.
So if you are feeling like this might be an experience that
(19:25):
matches for you, there's a lot of resources online and I know
that there's so much on like TikTok and stuff like that.
I guess my warning, that warningmight be too much of an
aggressive word, but a lot of people on the Internet, they get
diagnosed with ADHD and then they talk about their ADHG
experiences without realizing that they're also talking about
(19:46):
autism. Yeah.
So I guess my only hesitancy with recommending that is to.
Yeah, understand that there is adifference between the two and
supporting someone who's autistic looks a little bit
different than supporting an ADHD.
So I guess there's a lot of amazing resources like Reframing
Autism is a really good website that's an Australian based one.
(20:07):
They have so many like blog posts and resources and lived
experience. People contributing to their
website and there's Youtubers like How to ADHDI think her
name's Jessica McCabe. She has a lot of amazing ADHD
videos. Yo Sam de Sam.
Yeah, an autism specific one. I think there's might be getting
a little bit older now, but I guess also seeking out other
(20:32):
people or professionals who are in this kind of area too.
You can find like professionals who are autistic, ADHD as
themselves and have that experience, that lived
experience to support you. So I guess yeah, maybe those are
my look for. If you look for someone who says
that they're a neurodiversity affirming clinician, they're
(20:52):
gonna use different language than other people.
They're gonna have a more of an understanding of specific neuro
types so they can support you more effectively I think.
And there's comorbidities. Yeah, because that does happen.
Yeah, yeah. What about for the people that
are trying to support young people who may be
neurodivergent, like friends, family, peers?
(21:14):
How can they support someone through that journey?
Yeah, I think developing a good understanding yourself, again,
there's so many amazing, there'spodcasts, there's books, like
there's so many amazing resources out there.
So I think giving yourself that psycho education about
understanding their experience, I think that's really important
because often, like what I said earlier and autistic ADHD really
(21:38):
suppresses their experience. And they might not even realize
that they're feeling distressed by certain things in their
environment or routine or whatever it might be.
So they might not be able to tell you what it is that's
wrong. But if you notice that something
is wrong, then being able to support them.
And I think that non judgmental real, like unconditional love
(22:01):
type of support and approach andunderstanding that one of the
things that happens for people who are really highly masking
when they start to edge towards burnout is that they lose the
ability to mask. So they might start coming
across as really rude or really aloof or really abrupt because
masking involves adding all of this like social padding when
(22:22):
you're writing an e-mail. It's like, hi, I hope you're
going well. Like all of those things become
just impossible to do because you don't have the cognitive
capacity anymore. And in the kind of
neuronormative environment that comes across as very rude.
So I guess what I'm saying is that if you can allow someone to
be themselves and not judge themand not take it personally when
(22:44):
they start behaving in ways thatmaybe are different than what
you're used to, I think that canbe really helpful.
The amount of times that I've just wanted to like send an
e-mail without being like, hi, Ihope you're well warm regards.
Like, Oh my God, the weather on the weekends, like just, I want
to get straight into the subjectof the message.
(23:04):
I know. I so get that.
Yeah, I so get that. This is what's good about
working in a business where likeeveryone at work, like all of
the clients that I see, you know, they're all off stick.
So like, it's fine to talk like this.
Yeah, yeah. But it, it's, it's that point of
really getting to know your young person because as we've
mentioned in previous episodes and, and this one as well, every
(23:28):
person's brain is so different. But especially for an autistic
ADHD, they're not going to be the same as if you put two
people next to each other who might present with both ADHD and
autism, they're not going to maybe present with the same
traits. So it's really important to get
to know your young person, find out what they need or maybe what
(23:48):
is more challenging for them or just what their current fixation
is at the moment to to get to know them.
And yeah, I think that's a really important point.
Yeah, being able to know like what someones current safe
foods, right. Like there's these
neurodivergent love languages oflike being able to make someone
their safe food or bring that tothem.
(24:09):
Not having any expectation of social interaction, but just
providing that support is so powerful.
We talked about this in Part 1 as well, and we shared some of
the common myths or misconceptions that we'd heard
in society around this space at the moment.
What are some that come to mind that you still hear that you'd
(24:30):
love to see change moving forward?
Or is there kind of one big one that?
I think I'll probably say like similar to the previous episode,
like that kind of idea that like, oh, everyone's getting
diagnosed nowadays. I think that is this this really
pervasive idea of neuro norms, which is where you everyone
(24:52):
should just suck it up and get it done.
And I think there's that idea that, you know, for like ADHD is
or to see people, there's this idea that you're just, you know,
not trying hard enough. So if you just suck it up and
get it done, you'll be right. So I kind of I wish that there
was more understanding of that'snot actually how it works.
Like for an autistic person, theway that their brain works is
(25:12):
that actually their sensory world is completely exhausting
and overwhelming for them. You can't suck it up.
You just you can't do that. You have to manage your
environment. So I guess maybe I wish that
that was more well known is thatit's not like, oh, it'd be nice
if the lights were a bit more dim in here.
It's like these bright lights. I'm going to have a migraine
later, you know, like, I think Iwish that that was more
(25:35):
understood. Yeah.
Like it's less of a choice, moreof like a need.
Yes, Yeah, we all, whether you're neurodivergent or not, we
all have needs. And actually realizing that,
yeah, the consequences of not meeting those needs for anyone
could be detrimental. But especially for someone who's
(25:55):
presenting with with neurodivergence, it can be
exceptionally more impactful. So having that understanding is
really important. Yes.
You've shared so much wonderful stuff and I know anyone
listening to you will hopefully take away something from this
episode. I've got one final question for
(26:17):
you and it's just you've kind ofanswered it through a lot of
your questions so far. But overall, what's one small
change that anybody listening could help make to create a more
neuro firming world or even likeworkplace or in their school
environment? You know what's one thing that
(26:38):
they can do? Yeah, I guess I, I wish that
everyone was just understanding of differences, even if they're
like a bit weird. Yeah, they're a bit weird.
Or like you, you're like, why are they doing that?
Like if they're not hurting anyone, then like, whatever, you
know, like I kind of just wish, I wish there was that kind of
(27:00):
overarching non judgmental nature of, you know, if people
are doing something weird, then like, whatever, yeah, who cares?
Like, I kind of wish that was just a thing.
I would love that too. That would be an ideal world.
Yeah. Hopefully with more
conversations being had about this, we will get there
(27:20):
eventually. Yeah, and I know it it hopefully
will happen with all of the amazing work that you continue
to do and people who are like minded continue to do in this
space. So thank you so much for coming
on our podcast and sharing all of the very informative things
that you did. We will have a little bit of a
(27:40):
chat later about some helpful resources that some listeners
might be able to navigate to in the episode notes.
So if you have really gravitatedto some of the things that
Esther has mentioned, we will include some helpful resources
in our show notes that you can explore whenever you're ready.
We also as a reminder, if anything in this episode has
(28:03):
brought up anything for you, please utilize our support
service. That's services that we also
list in our episode notes. But if it is an emergency
situation, please utilize Lifeline or 000 in those
circumstances. Thank you so much again for
being a part of that episode today.
We are so thankful for you coming on and sharing the
(28:25):
knowledge that you did. We can't wait to come back for
our next episode and. Yeah, hopefully.
We'll have a bit more things to chat about on camera.
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