May 14, 2025 • 39 mins
Jennifer Griffith, author of the deeply moving memoir Both Sides of Then: Finding Love After Abandonment and the host of the popular podcast About Your Mother, which explores the complex dynamics of motherhood, family, and generational trauma. Jennifer's unique perspective comes from her own experience growing up with a mother whose past shaped their relationship in ways she couldn’t fully understand. Through Jennifer's exploration of her mother’s life, she reflects on how trauma can echo through generations, influencing how we relate to ourselves and our families. I really enjoyed our conversation about how everyone's story matters, the impact that your story can have on others, and how our past shapes our future!
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Follow me on Instagram:
Kathryn @kathryn_benko
Heart + Sole @heartandsolepodcast
Sole Fitness @sole_fitness
Follow Jennifer on Instagram: @byjennifergriffith
Purchase her new book HERE!
Check out her website HERE!
Subscribe to our new YouTube Channel and WATCH all episodes!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to the Heart and Soul podcast with Catherine Vanko.
I'm on a mission to celebrate breakthrough, empowerment and shameless
living in the lives of women everywhere. Join me and
let's live unashamed together. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back
to Heart and Soul today. I'm excited to be joined
by Jennifer Griffith, who is a fellow podcast host. She
(00:24):
hosts the very popular podcast About Your Mother, which has
actually reached the top ten percent of podcasts globally, so congrats.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
On that, thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
But in addition to that, she's also a new author.
Her book came out in November. It's a deeply moving
memoir called Both Sides of Them Finding Love After Abandonment,
and it has both the perspective of her mother's point
of view and her point of view, just to dig
deeper into past and generational trauma and how that affects
(00:55):
our future. So, Jennifer, thank you so much for joining
me on the podcast today.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Thanks for having me. I love your podcast, I love
it's purpose, love it. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Okay, so why don't you start by telling my listeners
a little bit more about who you are and what
you do well.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
I'm a recovering technology sales leader that had the eight
to write a book, and I left my tech career
ten years ago to write this memoir, the story of
my mom's life.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I always knew it to be told because.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
She's had so many, I would say, heartbreaking experiences. I
knew she couldn't write it for herself, So I wrote
her book in first person, the story of her life
being raised in an orphanage in Philadelphia and then having
to relinquish her first form my brother.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
For adoption in the decades before ROW.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
And then what I realized was I was also writing
about myself. So it's a dual memoir, like you said,
and it's my passion project and my life's purpose, I
would say. But through that, as I was trying to
sell my book, I launched my platform and podcasts about
Your Mother, What Your Story Begins, where I talk to
people about their lives and how they're connected to their beginnings.
(02:00):
And it turns out people like talking about their mamas.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
The amazing thing.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
It's you know, And I always trick people, and when
I'm doing readings, I say, raise your hand if you're
born from a mother and everybody raises their hand, and
then I asked them, we'll tell me if you know
the woman she was before she became your mom, and
it'll surprise you that so few hands go up. So
I think the thing that the one of the reasons
(02:25):
I had to write the book was because at thirteen,
my moms told me she.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Had found my brother.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
And I you know, at thirteen, I'm sassy and complicated
and trying to find myself, and I remember thinking.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Well, how did you lose a child?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
And he showed up a month later at nineteen years
old for my birthday, and my mom in that moment,
became a woman with a story. She was no longer
just my mom. And yeah, so that's that's how I.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Ended up here at fifty years old, with a memoir
in hand and a podcast. I love it.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I mean, you've clearly got stories to tell, and I
can't wait to dig deeper into those. But I mean,
it's true, like your mother is definitely the single, like
the biggest influence in your life from day one, But
we often look at our moms as just our moms,
like we don't think that they had a life before us,
and even now, like I'm thirty six, and like, I
(03:16):
still call my mom every day and don't ever like
it's harder for me to go it's hard for me
to be selfless in those conversations and not just like
vent about everything that I'm going through and I need
from her instead of asking like how are you? You know,
like she's still just such a caretaker to me, and
so it's hard to kind of like relinquish those roles
(03:36):
and get to know your mother on a deeper level.
So I think that's a brilliant idea, and I think
it's probably really therapeutic that you wrote it from both perspectives.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
It was, it really was, and I think it was
honoring my mother too, because I also tapped into I say,
my book goes into three buckets. It's the personal journey
that people, I think a lot of people can relate
to my story of you know, a struggle was self
worth and you know, becoming you know, kind of becoming
of age story. And then the second thing is I
(04:06):
tapped into the historical component of my mom's story that
millions of women found themselves in situations like her where
she was single and she was pregnant and single and
was shamed by society and sent to a maternity home
to deliver her baby for adoption. And I tapped into
the historical piece of it, and I where millions of
(04:26):
women did this, but they were shamed into silence.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
And so then I became like it was a bigger
thing for me. It was giving my.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Mom and these women a platform, you know, where we
could kind of expose how they were shamed and give
them a voice. But I will encourage people, as you
grow older to interview your mom and to ask them
those questions. And I don't think you should feel guilty
of relying on your mom that way, because that's probably
(04:54):
the happiest part of her day, is being your mom
and being there for you. But there is this law
unger tail thing that I think we can give ourselves
is interviewing our moms, like I said, and understanding their
stories because it really impacts the.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Way that they mother you.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
And so one of the things that my mom was
was she was somewhat critical and detached, loving and loves
being my mom, but she was somewhat critical at times
and just not always present. But when I wrote her story,
I understood why. I was like, oh, this poor woman
is thinking about every day she's thinking about where her
son is and determined to find him when he's eighteen.
(05:30):
And then I had so much compassion that I was
no longer how would I say I didn't have as
many conflicting feelings about the mother she was to me,
I totally understood her complexity and the emotional baggage that
she was caring that she couldn't even talk about on
the day to day.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
I know it sounds heavy, but it's actually very enlightening
and very freeing, incredibly freeing, one of the most ring
things I've ever done.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Well, I'm sure, and I think that's just that's just
a lesson that we need to hear for like all relationships,
is sometimes we we leave its service level and we
don't get to know the person's story, and because of
that we have these like judgments or preconceived notions. And
then the second you actually like hear someone's story, did
I pause out? Did I pause on that.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Just for a second? Yeah, you're good, Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
The second that you actually hear someone's story, it's like, oh,
it creates like it expands your heart for them, creates empathy,
it creates love, compassion, like you said, so let's dive
deeper into your mother's story and then the second part
will dive into your story.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Yeah, they collide, obviously, yes they do.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
So would you start by telling me a little bit
about your mother and how, especially now that you know
this having written the book, how getting pregnant at that
age and going through what she went through with your
older brother impacted her.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Oh so much.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
I think I'll take a step back though, because she
was raised in an orphanage, but how she got there
is incredibly heartbreaking. Her mother had three children under the
age of eight and then was pregnant with twins, and
she had the twins and she died shortly after. And
so her father was left with five kids under the
age of ten, and they lived in a poor area
(07:18):
of Manyunk, Philadelphia, and he had to put them in
a home, and orphanages were actually the foster care system
at the time, So.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
He put them in.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
The home and he ends up dying, and so they
are kind of left to be there.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Until they're eighteen.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
And my mom had a great experience there. I actually
interview her for my podcast that drops next week, so
people can hear her voice and telling her story. So
she had all of this pain that I always knew about,
and then you add this layer of Then she finds
herself in this perfect conundrum where there's no.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Such sex education.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
She's raised in the strict Baptist environment, there's very few
reproductive rights and even no contraception at the time. So
she just finds herself out in this world that has changed,
and she really was not equipped for it. And when
she realizes that she's pregnant, she doesn't really have a
lot of options. And so her society, you know, society
(08:19):
the way that it was, would have shamed her into
not you know, women that kept their babies at the
time were shunned by their family. Other families wouldn't play
with the children if you were a single mother. And
so she just found herself in this situation, and honestly,
she can't really talk about it very much. And so
what I did is I researched and interviewed other women
(08:40):
who went through the similar experience as well. She can
tell me so much, right, But then I also did
a podcast series on it and interviewed other mothers who
found themselves in maternity homes and was really able to
put the pieces together for it and realize how my
mom is the hero is that most of these women
never contacted their children, but my mom, based on her
(09:00):
experience and the orphanage, which is why it's so important,
she said, no, he's gonna know who I am, whether
he wants to talk to me or not. I will
find him when he's eighteen. And so she was rogue.
She was, you know, she calls herself stubborn, but she
was determined to tell him why it happened and that
she's that she loved him. And that's where my mom was.
(09:22):
You know, she's a hero in that way, and you know,
kind of broke the mold of what some of these women.
They took that secret to their graves.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
I can't imagine, well, I can't imagine having that kind
of background, like losing your parents, yeah, and and being
raised in an orphanage at the time. But then on
top of that, like I've I'm a mother and I
your identity changes the second you get pregnant, like truly,
(09:51):
you have this connection, this cell connection with this child,
and then for her having in that time to release
the child to someone else, it's got to feel like
there's a part of your heart that's like just not beating,
which sounds dramatic, but it really does. Like I just
feel like being a mother has changed my DNA. So
(10:14):
it's very I think honorable that she gave that baby
a home and then also that she was like, I'm
not going to give up on this baby.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
So she was a teenager you said when she got pregnant.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
No, she actually wasn't.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
She was in her twenties, So that gives you an idea.
And actually a lot a lot of them were teenagers. Yes,
a lot of these young women were teenagers. You know,
a high school girl that finds herself pregnant, and she
does she went away for a couple of minutes, you know,
she did see her aunt somewhere in the Midwest.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
But a lot of them were in their twenties like
my mom.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
And I think that becomes really important because it tells
you what the pressure was from what the message was
in society to these young women that you cannot do this,
You are shamed, are not honorable yours. You know, your
child's life is going to be greatly impacted if you
raise them alone. But to your point, when I had
(11:10):
my son and I was in the you know, you're
having your child, and to your point, you are changed forever.
There's this just connection that you have with your child.
I immediately thought of her and I thought, oh my.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Gosh, how did she do that?
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
How on earth?
Speaker 3 (11:24):
And then she made so much more sense to me
in that moment of why sometimes I felt she wasn't
present even though she was there. And I'm sure some
of us have had those types of moms that are
you know, they're there, but they're not really engaged, and
you know they give you love, but there's something missing.
There's just some sort of connection that's missing. And that,
to your point, was because she had been through that.
(11:46):
I could just feel it every day. And as a
mom now I look at her and I think, oh
my gosh, when you walked me to the school bus,
you were also thinking about him, wondering if he was okay.
And so it did open so many doors of empathy
and understanding for my mom and a lot of forgiveness
for I think moments in my life.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Where I was like, hello, are you there? You know?
You know, are you there?
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Mom?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Can you see me in front of you? You know?
Speaker 3 (12:12):
And I write about that in the book, And they're
little things, But as an adult, I look back and think,
oh my gosh, what why wasn't she more engaged in
that moment? And I do think it's all because of
everything that she experienced. And so when I was saying earlier,
it's such a it's such a gift to interview your
parents and try and understand them on a different level
if they're open. And I actually just did for your
(12:34):
listeners a series of Mother's Day questions that you can
ask your mom or reflect on them if they're not
with us anymore, so that'll be available to them too
if they want them.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Yeah, I think I just encourage people to do it
because it really floors me when people don't, you know,
when they I ask, do you know your mom is
the woman she was before she was your mom?
Speaker 2 (12:54):
And nobody knows?
Speaker 3 (12:55):
I'm like, oh, well, there's there's a story in there
for you to better understand yourself if you can, if
you can get them to share.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Would you mind unpacking a little more about how you
were raised, how she raised you, the connections y'all had
growing up, and maybe how her past impacted how you
were raised.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Yeah, she was a let me say this a lovely mother, loving,
loved being my mom. However, she was raised in the
orphanage to marry and have a child, and she was
definitely there for my father. So being raised in this
Baptist environment, one of the things they said.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Is cleave your husband as if right.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
You know, this is just a generation ago, this was
all going on, and so she, you know, while she
was there for me, the bigger job was my dad
and that and so in that way, when I had
aspirations to be these are true stories an Olympian or
where I wanted to that I had the sport picked
(14:01):
out yet, but I had all these aspirations to do
something great and big, and it just felt like they
were always getting squashed. And that I had. There's one
chapter where I write about where I was up for
going to trying out for the Zacomi Youth Symphony. And
I was incredibly musically talented because my mom was a pianist,
and so I just grew up with music and I
could read music at a young age. And I wasn't
(14:24):
allowed to try out because it was at night, and
it was at night, and at night that's when that
was her time with my dad to cook for my
dad and be with my dad, and so just little
things like that that compounded over time where I just
always felt like doors are being shut. But now writing
and reliving her story and dipping myself into her skin, I.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Can see why it was that way. You know, that
was what she was doing, exactly what she was told
to do, you know.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
And her thing was she wanted she wanted a normal life.
And so it was my dad and me and her
and a dog and a and.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
That was it, you know, that was where it ended.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
And you know, then other things happened, and it got
a little bit more complicated, but I think, well, no,
I don't mind at all. Here's chapter one. So my
mom sits me down, tells me I'm a brother. I'm
thirteen years old at the time. He comes the next
month for my birthday. And then within a couple of months,
(15:25):
my dad sits us down and says, I don't want
to be here anymore. And stranger than getting a brother
for Christmas? And how your dad say you no longer
wanted to be part of the family.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
He stayed.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
And this is where I, as an adult and a mom,
really had lots of questions, because then we never talked
about it, and as you can imagine, that's like a
pressure cooker with all of these you know, tensions going on,
but no release valve.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
There was just no release valve.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
And so I really wanted to understand how that happened
and why that was okay for my mom to stay.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
And so you grew up just the three of you,
your father, mother, and you, and then you find out
you have a brother at age thirteen. Is are you
and him now close or was it just kind of
like a meet and greet situation.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
No, that's a great question.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Yes, And one caveat is I did have two sisters
who lived on the East Coast, two girls from my
father's marriage, but they stayed on the East Coast with
their mom.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
So I was always aching for siblings in the house.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
So my mom's like, you have a brother.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
I was like, sweet, you know, she's pregnant and she's like, no,
I'm not pregnant.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I found him and yeah, So it's what was your
question again, I'm so sorry I lost.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Just asking what you and your brother's relationship is.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Oh. Yeah, so my brother is awesome. He was raised
by an incredible family and we had lots of years
where we were really really close. And then I think
to your point, when you have a child, you change
your perspective changes, And I think it's harder for him
now that he has this beautiful family to integrate our
family as closely as he had before, which I totally understand.
(17:08):
You know, it's adoption leads to a series of never
ending questions. And you know, questions sometimes are they create
complexity that you just don't want in your immediate family,
you know, right, And but he's wonderful and we do talk,
and you know, everything worked out for him, and you know,
I think it's great that he knows my mom and
that he knows the story as much as he can,
(17:29):
and you know, and that he's gone on to raise
an incredible family. Like for instance, I'm saying, this is
a proud auntie, but his oldest got into Sanford. You know,
everything's you know, he's everything's charging along.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
He's doing great. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
And that's the thing with adoption too, is sometimes you
can like break generational chains if you're not like ready
to mother by providing a family or giving him to
a family who is ready and for him to like
feel loved in that way. I'm just thinking back on
what you said about like the this being just one
generation before you, and how much has changed in society
(18:04):
since then. Like I literally was just on the phone
from my good friends last night who got divorced a
few years ago, and she is going through the process of,
like she wants to be a mom, and we're in
our older thirties and she can't find a man that
she likes, so she's like the process of like sperm
donor and like becoming a single mother, and like for
that to be something that we as women can like
(18:25):
own and choose now in comparison to what your mom
went through where she was like shamed for that and
like it wasn't even like an option for her to think, like,
oh I could just like raise this kid on my own.
It's just wild to see. It's it's cool, but it's
crazy to see how society is just like evolving and
(18:45):
it's not that long of a time ago.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
You know, it's not.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
And in fact, in my research, I reconnected with a
woman who lived in the orphanage with my mom, who
ended up in the same situation and decided to keep
her child. Her family disowned her. Her son never had
playdates with other families, like, it is incredible what she
went to and I'm having a conversation with her, going,
oh my gosh, I can't believe that so much has
(19:11):
changed in just a couple of decades. It's sad and
hopeful at the same time. Right, And I too, I
thought about it before I met my husband. I didn't
like my line up either of men, and I was
considering having a baby on my own as well, and
that would have.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Been just fine. Yeah, And that's the thing now, is.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Well, the thing with women in general is like we
have a ticking clock, Like we don't have a long
So if you're in your late thirties and you're single
and haven't found your person, that the fact that that's
an option and we have resources out there.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
To do that is it's cool. It's cool. It's very great, cool. Yeah,
it's great.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
And like the old company that I work for now
they pay for you to freeze your eggs. They have
a you know, a plan where you can.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Freeze your eggs.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
I love that's part of the dialogue because I had,
you know, second child and for two and that was
god awful, and so I just love that that we're
you know that we're putting women first, that we're.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Talking about menopause.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
You know that all these issues that were buried under
whatever society wanted us to look And if you're like,
I'm glad, we're just like breaking that ceiling and for
sure putting it all out there.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
So how did your mother, how she mothered you impact
how you mother your child?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Oh gosh, do you have another hour? Oh gosh? You know,
Glyss notes I.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
One of the reasons I wanted to write the book
is because I do think I am a complex mom.
I have a mother wound that you know, we have
a generational mother wound going on here, right and with
my mom losing her mom and my mom being complex
and affected by her trauma, and so I in many
ways wrote the books that my son could understand me.
I didn't want him to wait as long as I
(20:55):
had to wait to figure this all out. And so
the way that I'm mother him is I think I'll
follow my mommy sword a little bit. I think I
sometimes over mother because I was so unmothered, and my
mom will admit that, and it doesn't come from a
lack of love.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
My mom was like I just didn't she didn't really
know what she was doing. She didn't have a model
for it.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
She was raised in a very strict religious environment that
had lots of structure, but not a lot of love
and you know, individualization.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
You know, they were little children's soldiers, if you will.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
And so I think I over mother sometimes. But on
the good side, I tell him I love him constantly.
I hug him all the time. I was rarely touched
as a child, just because that was the environment. So
there's some good things that come from it too, And
I think it's, you know, at its core, I was
inspired to write the book for him, And isn't that cool?
(21:50):
And I know he's proud of me, so that's good.
But yeah, I'm a complex mom, I'll give it, you know.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
And that's the thing I think we are. I mean,
we are all a product of how we were raised,
whether that be good or bad. And that's why it's
so cool that like now it's like really encouraged these
days to like go to therapy and like unpack your
past and so that you can better understand your current
self and your future self for your kids. And yeah,
(22:19):
we live in a in a better time where we
are encouraged to unpack and use that as a resource
for parenting or whatnot.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Absolutely, and yeah, I love the changes that we're making,
and I love that we're giving women voices, but mother
voices as well.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
It's a complex role.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
No, And I think even in I'm a little you know,
almost two decades older than you. I was in that
age when I was like in my twenties and thirties
where they're like, you can have it all, you can
do everything, and let me tell you something. We were dying,
but like we were doing too much, and you know,
Cheryl Sandberg would lean in. I got the message, but
the message was also a little off.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
You know, it's.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Easy for certain people to lean in and who have
tons of resources, but there were some of us who
didn't have those resources, who were working just as hard.
And so I wrote a series called lean Out where
you know where I here.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
I was.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
I had this huge corporate job. I loved my job.
I had a baby at home.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
I was racing to the city every day, and I
was giving myself IVF shots on you know, business trips
and in the bathroom. And after I had my second miscarriage,
I was like, what am I doing?
Speaker 2 (23:27):
This is insane.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
So each I think each you know, mother generation, we're
getting better and better, and I like that. I feel
like this kind of current age of working moms on
the younger side are making more of a stamp and saying, no,
I'm not doing all of it. At the same time,
I'm going to make choices. Do you feel that way that, yes,
there's a shift in that dialogue.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
I definitely see a shift. I think like just as
women in general were kind of like encouraged to wear
a lot of hats, and like I think us being
you know, natural nurtures and and I'm like a natural
like perfectionist. Like it's it's hard not to want to
be good at everything and like accomplish everything and say
you can, and but then the reality is you can't.
(24:11):
Like I when I had my son, my business changed
a little bit. When I had my daughter, it.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Changed a lot.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
And by choice. It was not like my husband telling
me you need to let go so you compair in
our kids. It was it was me being like, Okay,
in this season of life, I can't do it all
and that's okay, and giving myself like grace there where
I feel like hustle culture, even in the last ten
years has really changed. But hustle culture kind of like
(24:40):
demands that you just give it your all to everything
and you can do it all, Like you can be
a great mom, a great wife, and like run a
business and YadA, YadA, YadA and still be active and
like all these things that you love to do, but
you just can't. And so there are there are sacrifices
that you have to make. And yeah, I think our
generation is like learning that and giving ourselves a little
(25:01):
more grace of like, okay, I can't.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
I think so I love that and this season of
life and you know, identifying that there are chapters and
that you don't have to deplete yourself in certain chapters
you're doing certain things and that's okay.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
I love that. I love that.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
I think I have to remind myself of the chapters
because I had kid I didn't have kids late, but
in the South, I had kids later, and so I
sent my twenties like starting my business and building it up,
and then thirty two, I get pregnant and I kind
of would compare myself to my mom who she had
(25:40):
me at thirty but by the time I was in kindergarten,
she like started a brand new career and became really successful,
and I think I like kind of beat myself up
of like I'm really not like financially where my parents
were when they had children or YadA, YadA, YadA. But
it's like, well, I I chose to have kids later
in my thirties, and I do have to relinquish some
(26:01):
like financial freedom because of that. But like when I'm
forty and my kids are in kindergarten, I have more time,
like maybe I can like push into something bigger and
better and like that be that season for that and
this is just not the season to excel in a career, yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
I think, And good for you for owning that and
accepting it and you know and recognizing that you're doing
really good work, you know ye raising these humans and
that's hard while taking care of yourself.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
I hope.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yes, I yes, And thankfully I have support from I
have an awesome husband, and I literally work in a gym,
so it's kind of nice. Like if I need to
like work out, I can like just go to work.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
I love it, That's right.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yes, Okay, So we are getting to the end of
my child's nap, so I want to ask you.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Some questions before we love off.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Speaking of seasons of life. So I have these questions
that I ask my guests at the end of every episode.
I haven't been asking them as much this season, but
I feel called to kind of throw them at you.
I didn't care, but here we go, okay, and I'm
going to try and rewrite them towards like your story,
(27:18):
but I don't know if it's going to come out right.
We'll see, Okay. What is something that you really love
about yourself as a mother right now?
Speaker 3 (27:28):
My desire and commitment to evolving, to his maturity and
his desire for independence.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
That's hard, Yeah, especially when you have to let go
because you've been like their caretaker and then they get
older and you're like.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
No watching, Yeah, opening the door and letting them fail
or you know, learn the lessons because it's so deeply
connected to your heart is is big.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
So taking out the mother role of that question. What
is something that you just love about yourself in general
right now?
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Oh? That's so sweet.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
I love what my book is doing in terms of
the conversations that it's sparking. I just I absolutely love it.
I'm really proud of it. Super proud man.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
That's amazing. What is something that you're really looking forward
to in the rest of this year?
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Taking a break and going to Europe with my husband?
Where are you going?
Speaker 3 (28:24):
We're going to Switzerland and the south of France and
south of France and then Paris. And because my son's
going to a camp and we haven't done this. The
last time we did it was in twenty nineteen, right
before the pandemic, so we have not been on a
vacation like just the two of us like this, And
oh my gosh, what now six years almost?
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Yeah, it's time.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
It's time.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
That's okay, if you could leave my listeners, Actually no,
I'm gonna end with that one. My next question, what
is something that you're just currently kind of obsessed with
right now? Like we were talking about pop culture before
we press record, but like it can be something so
silly as like a food you love or like a
show your binging or whatever, just something.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
You know, I'm gonna tell you. And it's a good one.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
I because my son was a child, I can't believe
that I was not addicted to the show.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
But I am going through a total gossip Girl moment.
And yeah, and I'm having.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Really big feelings about Chuck Bass and I need to just.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Season one or season two.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
But you know, his his glow up, I guess the
kids call it the glow up is really intense for me.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
I think it's just because I'm fifty and I didn't watch.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
It because he was a baby at the time. But
Gossip of a Girl and I are having a really
good time.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
It's a phenomenal show. Also, as you're watching, you kind
of realize how horrible Serena is.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Oh, she's terrible. It's the worst.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
And like they kind of in the beginning, paint her
out to be, you know, the protagonist, and you're like.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
No, Sarena's like not it. It's all it's Chuck and Blair.
I'm Jack and Blair.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
They are it.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
They are it.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
And then I'm going a little anecdote because when I
find something I really like, I go double, I go
really deep. So maybe we'll do a pop culture podcast
just you and I next time, because I'm all over
the board. But what I really love about this is
their chemistry. And actually, you know, they rewrote the show
after they did the pilot because they had such Chuck
and Blair had such chemistry that they rewrote the entire
(30:27):
show and they became the central characters. Because Leyton and
Ed had such on screen chemistry, he was supposed to
be this like bad boy villain character that wasn't center center.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
I read that. Yeah, I've gone all the way deep
on this and I just.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Love watching two people connect like that on screen and
then millions of people get to enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
I just think it's cool.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Yeah, I just think and I try and imagine if
you're an actor and you get that part and you
find yourself.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Like in that moment, how cool is that? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Because when they introduced Chuck, he was a bad boy,
he was bounding it a terrible haircut, his outfit was,
his clothes were terrible, and then they you know, did
the glow up on him, and he just he owns
that part, which I just think is cool. It's amazing
what a little like wardrobe and globe will do for anyone. Okay,
(31:17):
my last question, and what is something Okay, if you
had to leave a little post it note of like
encouragement or like a little like you got this post
it note on our listener's mirrors.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
What would it say your story matters? Love it.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Your story does matter.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Your story matters. We all have a story to tell them.
They all matter. And then and yeah, go.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Ahead, I was gonna say, and get to know other
people's stories so that you, like we said earlier, and
like better understand the people in your life, the people.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
In your life.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
And then in the end, when you do that work,
like you really own your story and you know you
do something with it.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Whatever your podcast, you journal about it, you write a book,
I don't care what it is.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Then you realize your story isn't about you anymore. So
you asked me, what's the really cool thing going on now?
Is that I put my story in the world.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
But now it's not even really about me. It's about
what other people do with it. And that's magic.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
You know, this is so this is so dumb that
pop culture me is like connecting that with Taylor Swift please.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
So she wrote this song all too Well back in
like twenty twelve, twenty eleven. I'm upsessed with Taylor Swift
and it's kind of like a thing. But it's like
this song that wasn't even supposed to be a single,
and but it was released on her Red album and
like all of her fans were obsessed with it and
they made it what it was, like really popular because
of the storytelling is true story about her and Jake
(32:43):
Joonhall whatever. Well, now years later, when she's doing her rewrites,
she releases a ten minute version of that song and
and it even more so with ed added lyrics and
more story, and it even more so is like the
fan favorite. And then recently when she released her last album,
the last song of the album reflects on the journey
(33:06):
of all too well. The song it's called the Manuscript,
and she's like, it's the whole point is you know
that manuscript, that original writing was about me, but now
the story's not even about me anymore. It's for y'all.
It's about y'all. And anyways, that was like such a
long winded way of saying, like, yes, your story doesn't
become about you anymore.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
I'm so glad you showed that, because I'm flying, I'm
going to a book event in Ohio and so I'm
going to double click into this like I double clicked
and Chuck Bass, I love that.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Thank you for sharing. Yeah, And it is like that.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
It is when you put your energy out there and
you do the work right, and you're just curious and
you follow your curiosity. It leads you to just incredible places.
And that's really all I did. I just became really
curious about my family.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Also, I've noticed, like with this podcast, like I don't
know who's listening. It could be like just my mom,
or it could be you know, a random stranger on
the internet. But I've found that even with this podcast
or with just like sharing things on social media, I'll
get like dms from people that are like, like I
we could probably talk about this a whole other episode,
but I've I've lost four babies, I've had four miscarriages.
(34:13):
Oh I'm sorry, it's okay, But I have women that
I do not know all the time because I've shared
that those stories on the podcast slide into my dms
and be like, I'm currently miscarrying. What do I do?
Or how should I feel? Or what like what steps
did you take next? And it's crazy to think, like
my miscarriage is yes, they are deeply like ingrained in
(34:36):
my soul and I'll never like get past that trauma.
But I can use it to help someone else, and
so it's not really about me anymore. It's about these
other women who get to hopefully have a resource for
what they're going through.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
So anyways, I'm so glad you're doing that because those miscarriages,
people don't talk about it.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
I think there's so much shame in those and hurt
and yeah, I remember writing about mine a couple of
years ago.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Yeah, people, there's just so many women who experience that
and they just don't have anywhere to go, right, So
keep sharing that, I know.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
But that is the magic. You just you just nailed it.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
You know, it's no longer about you. You're helping others
and that's that's just awesome.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
And you are helping others too on your podcast and
through your book. What is the best way for my
listeners to connect with you? And obviously I'll put like
the links in the show notes for you listeners so
you can like buy her book and listen to her podcast.
But what's the best way that they connect with you?
Speaker 3 (35:31):
My all my handles are by Jennifer Griffith dot com,
So be why Jennifer Griffith dot com. There's another Jennifer
Griffith out there. Shout out to her. She's an author
as well. She's got a lot of books out there.
But yeah, we're it's hard. You know, we're a seoing
each other like crazy. So so I am.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
I know. I was like, gosh, should I change my name?
Speaker 3 (35:53):
Uh so buy Jennifer Griffith dot com. And that's Instagram
my website. I'm on substack as well and Facebook a
little bit on LinkedIn, but the website has it all.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Yeah, perfect, but listeners, I will link that in the
show notes. And Jennifer was soiga getting to know you
and we will have to like connect again in the
future about pop culture.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
Kelly, Oh, I don't come talk to you about it anytime.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Yes, it's like a passion of mine.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
So well, me too. Do you read the Daily Mail?
Speaker 3 (36:19):
I do?
Speaker 1 (36:19):
And did you like I'm like big on following like
page six on Instagram, like like it's really bad. But
basically like gossip Girl in real life, I follow her Dumi.
I don't know if you follow them, you got to
follow them. She knows like she knows all the like
celebrity tea and she basically releases it on Instagram as
(36:42):
if she is gossip Girl.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Oh my gosh, okay, I'm.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
In that era. You need to like connect with her again.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
This Gossip Girl just came on my plate and it's
a big It's been a big moment. You know. My
husband's like, oh my gosh, are you going up to
watch that again? I'm like, yeah, yeah, no, I'm.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
All all the way in chair.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
What season are you on?
Speaker 2 (36:58):
I'm going to admit something I watched.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
I watched it all the way through, and I'm rewatching
it again because I would fall asleep. So now I
have to watch it when I'm like not falling asleep.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
I understand that it's coming.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
It is.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Well, okay, Thank you so much for joining me and listeners.
I will talk to you next week.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Thanks for listening to Heart and Soul. If this episode
encouraged you in any way, please leave a review on
Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Talk to
you next week.
You're listening to the Heart and Soul podcast with Catherine Vanko.
I'm on a mission to celebrate breakthrough, empowerment and shameless
living in the lives of women everywhere. Join me and
let's live unashamed together. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back
to Heart and Soul today. I'm excited to be joined
by Jennifer Griffith, who is a fellow podcast host. She
(00:24):
hosts the very popular podcast About Your Mother, which has
actually reached the top ten percent of podcasts globally, so congrats.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
On that, thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
But in addition to that, she's also a new author.
Her book came out in November. It's a deeply moving
memoir called Both Sides of Them Finding Love After Abandonment,
and it has both the perspective of her mother's point
of view and her point of view, just to dig
deeper into past and generational trauma and how that affects
(00:55):
our future. So, Jennifer, thank you so much for joining
me on the podcast today.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Thanks for having me. I love your podcast, I love
it's purpose, love it. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Okay, so why don't you start by telling my listeners
a little bit more about who you are and what
you do well.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
I'm a recovering technology sales leader that had the eight
to write a book, and I left my tech career
ten years ago to write this memoir, the story of
my mom's life.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I always knew it to be told because.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
She's had so many, I would say, heartbreaking experiences. I
knew she couldn't write it for herself, So I wrote
her book in first person, the story of her life
being raised in an orphanage in Philadelphia and then having
to relinquish her first form my brother.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
For adoption in the decades before ROW.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
And then what I realized was I was also writing
about myself. So it's a dual memoir, like you said,
and it's my passion project and my life's purpose, I
would say. But through that, as I was trying to
sell my book, I launched my platform and podcasts about
Your Mother, What Your Story Begins, where I talk to
people about their lives and how they're connected to their beginnings.
(02:00):
And it turns out people like talking about their mamas.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
The amazing thing.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
It's you know, And I always trick people, and when
I'm doing readings, I say, raise your hand if you're
born from a mother and everybody raises their hand, and
then I asked them, we'll tell me if you know
the woman she was before she became your mom, and
it'll surprise you that so few hands go up. So
I think the thing that the one of the reasons
(02:25):
I had to write the book was because at thirteen,
my moms told me she.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Had found my brother.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
And I you know, at thirteen, I'm sassy and complicated
and trying to find myself, and I remember thinking.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Well, how did you lose a child?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
And he showed up a month later at nineteen years
old for my birthday, and my mom in that moment,
became a woman with a story. She was no longer
just my mom. And yeah, so that's that's how I.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Ended up here at fifty years old, with a memoir
in hand and a podcast. I love it.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
I mean, you've clearly got stories to tell, and I
can't wait to dig deeper into those. But I mean,
it's true, like your mother is definitely the single, like
the biggest influence in your life from day one, But
we often look at our moms as just our moms,
like we don't think that they had a life before us,
and even now, like I'm thirty six, and like, I
(03:16):
still call my mom every day and don't ever like
it's harder for me to go it's hard for me
to be selfless in those conversations and not just like
vent about everything that I'm going through and I need
from her instead of asking like how are you? You know,
like she's still just such a caretaker to me, and
so it's hard to kind of like relinquish those roles
(03:36):
and get to know your mother on a deeper level.
So I think that's a brilliant idea, and I think
it's probably really therapeutic that you wrote it from both perspectives.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
It was, it really was, and I think it was
honoring my mother too, because I also tapped into I say,
my book goes into three buckets. It's the personal journey
that people, I think a lot of people can relate
to my story of you know, a struggle was self
worth and you know, becoming you know, kind of becoming
of age story. And then the second thing is I
(04:06):
tapped into the historical component of my mom's story that
millions of women found themselves in situations like her where
she was single and she was pregnant and single and
was shamed by society and sent to a maternity home
to deliver her baby for adoption. And I tapped into
the historical piece of it, and I where millions of
(04:26):
women did this, but they were shamed into silence.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
And so then I became like it was a bigger
thing for me. It was giving my.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Mom and these women a platform, you know, where we
could kind of expose how they were shamed and give
them a voice. But I will encourage people, as you
grow older to interview your mom and to ask them
those questions. And I don't think you should feel guilty
of relying on your mom that way, because that's probably
(04:54):
the happiest part of her day, is being your mom
and being there for you. But there is this law
unger tail thing that I think we can give ourselves
is interviewing our moms, like I said, and understanding their
stories because it really impacts the.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Way that they mother you.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
And so one of the things that my mom was
was she was somewhat critical and detached, loving and loves
being my mom, but she was somewhat critical at times
and just not always present. But when I wrote her story,
I understood why. I was like, oh, this poor woman
is thinking about every day she's thinking about where her
son is and determined to find him when he's eighteen.
(05:30):
And then I had so much compassion that I was
no longer how would I say I didn't have as
many conflicting feelings about the mother she was to me,
I totally understood her complexity and the emotional baggage that
she was caring that she couldn't even talk about on
the day to day.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
I know it sounds heavy, but it's actually very enlightening
and very freeing, incredibly freeing, one of the most ring
things I've ever done.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Well, I'm sure, and I think that's just that's just
a lesson that we need to hear for like all relationships,
is sometimes we we leave its service level and we
don't get to know the person's story, and because of
that we have these like judgments or preconceived notions. And
then the second you actually like hear someone's story, did
I pause out? Did I pause on that.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Just for a second? Yeah, you're good, Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
The second that you actually hear someone's story, it's like, oh,
it creates like it expands your heart for them, creates empathy,
it creates love, compassion, like you said, so let's dive
deeper into your mother's story and then the second part
will dive into your story.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Yeah, they collide, obviously, yes they do.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
So would you start by telling me a little bit
about your mother and how, especially now that you know
this having written the book, how getting pregnant at that
age and going through what she went through with your
older brother impacted her.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Oh so much.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
I think I'll take a step back though, because she
was raised in an orphanage, but how she got there
is incredibly heartbreaking. Her mother had three children under the
age of eight and then was pregnant with twins, and
she had the twins and she died shortly after. And
so her father was left with five kids under the
age of ten, and they lived in a poor area
(07:18):
of Manyunk, Philadelphia, and he had to put them in
a home, and orphanages were actually the foster care system
at the time, So.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
He put them in.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
The home and he ends up dying, and so they
are kind of left to be there.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Until they're eighteen.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
And my mom had a great experience there. I actually
interview her for my podcast that drops next week, so
people can hear her voice and telling her story. So
she had all of this pain that I always knew about,
and then you add this layer of Then she finds
herself in this perfect conundrum where there's no.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Such sex education.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
She's raised in the strict Baptist environment, there's very few
reproductive rights and even no contraception at the time. So
she just finds herself out in this world that has changed,
and she really was not equipped for it. And when
she realizes that she's pregnant, she doesn't really have a
lot of options. And so her society, you know, society
(08:19):
the way that it was, would have shamed her into
not you know, women that kept their babies at the
time were shunned by their family. Other families wouldn't play
with the children if you were a single mother. And
so she just found herself in this situation, and honestly,
she can't really talk about it very much. And so
what I did is I researched and interviewed other women
(08:40):
who went through the similar experience as well. She can
tell me so much, right, But then I also did
a podcast series on it and interviewed other mothers who
found themselves in maternity homes and was really able to
put the pieces together for it and realize how my
mom is the hero is that most of these women
never contacted their children, but my mom, based on her
(09:00):
experience and the orphanage, which is why it's so important,
she said, no, he's gonna know who I am, whether
he wants to talk to me or not. I will
find him when he's eighteen. And so she was rogue.
She was, you know, she calls herself stubborn, but she
was determined to tell him why it happened and that
she's that she loved him. And that's where my mom was.
(09:22):
You know, she's a hero in that way, and you know,
kind of broke the mold of what some of these women.
They took that secret to their graves.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
I can't imagine, well, I can't imagine having that kind
of background, like losing your parents, yeah, and and being
raised in an orphanage at the time. But then on
top of that, like I've I'm a mother and I
your identity changes the second you get pregnant, like truly,
(09:51):
you have this connection, this cell connection with this child,
and then for her having in that time to release
the child to someone else, it's got to feel like
there's a part of your heart that's like just not beating,
which sounds dramatic, but it really does. Like I just
feel like being a mother has changed my DNA. So
(10:14):
it's very I think honorable that she gave that baby
a home and then also that she was like, I'm
not going to give up on this baby.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
So she was a teenager you said when she got pregnant.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
No, she actually wasn't.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
She was in her twenties, So that gives you an idea.
And actually a lot a lot of them were teenagers. Yes,
a lot of these young women were teenagers. You know,
a high school girl that finds herself pregnant, and she
does she went away for a couple of minutes, you know,
she did see her aunt somewhere in the Midwest.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
But a lot of them were in their twenties like
my mom.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
And I think that becomes really important because it tells
you what the pressure was from what the message was
in society to these young women that you cannot do this,
You are shamed, are not honorable yours. You know, your
child's life is going to be greatly impacted if you
raise them alone. But to your point, when I had
(11:10):
my son and I was in the you know, you're
having your child, and to your point, you are changed forever.
There's this just connection that you have with your child.
I immediately thought of her and I thought, oh my.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Gosh, how did she do that?
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
How on earth?
Speaker 3 (11:24):
And then she made so much more sense to me
in that moment of why sometimes I felt she wasn't
present even though she was there. And I'm sure some
of us have had those types of moms that are
you know, they're there, but they're not really engaged, and
you know they give you love, but there's something missing.
There's just some sort of connection that's missing. And that,
to your point, was because she had been through that.
(11:46):
I could just feel it every day. And as a
mom now I look at her and I think, oh
my gosh, when you walked me to the school bus,
you were also thinking about him, wondering if he was okay.
And so it did open so many doors of empathy
and understanding for my mom and a lot of forgiveness
for I think moments in my life.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Where I was like, hello, are you there? You know?
You know, are you there?
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Mom?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Can you see me in front of you? You know?
Speaker 3 (12:12):
And I write about that in the book, And they're
little things, But as an adult, I look back and think,
oh my gosh, what why wasn't she more engaged in
that moment? And I do think it's all because of
everything that she experienced. And so when I was saying earlier,
it's such a it's such a gift to interview your
parents and try and understand them on a different level
if they're open. And I actually just did for your
(12:34):
listeners a series of Mother's Day questions that you can
ask your mom or reflect on them if they're not
with us anymore, so that'll be available to them too
if they want them.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Yeah, I think I just encourage people to do it
because it really floors me when people don't, you know,
when they I ask, do you know your mom is
the woman she was before she was your mom?
Speaker 2 (12:54):
And nobody knows?
Speaker 3 (12:55):
I'm like, oh, well, there's there's a story in there
for you to better understand yourself if you can, if
you can get them to share.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Would you mind unpacking a little more about how you
were raised, how she raised you, the connections y'all had
growing up, and maybe how her past impacted how you
were raised.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Yeah, she was a let me say this a lovely mother, loving,
loved being my mom. However, she was raised in the
orphanage to marry and have a child, and she was
definitely there for my father. So being raised in this
Baptist environment, one of the things they said.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Is cleave your husband as if right.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
You know, this is just a generation ago, this was
all going on, and so she, you know, while she
was there for me, the bigger job was my dad
and that and so in that way, when I had
aspirations to be these are true stories an Olympian or
where I wanted to that I had the sport picked
(14:01):
out yet, but I had all these aspirations to do
something great and big, and it just felt like they
were always getting squashed. And that I had. There's one
chapter where I write about where I was up for
going to trying out for the Zacomi Youth Symphony. And
I was incredibly musically talented because my mom was a pianist,
and so I just grew up with music and I
could read music at a young age. And I wasn't
(14:24):
allowed to try out because it was at night, and
it was at night, and at night that's when that
was her time with my dad to cook for my
dad and be with my dad, and so just little
things like that that compounded over time where I just
always felt like doors are being shut. But now writing
and reliving her story and dipping myself into her skin, I.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Can see why it was that way. You know, that
was what she was doing, exactly what she was told
to do, you know.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
And her thing was she wanted she wanted a normal life.
And so it was my dad and me and her
and a dog and a and.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
That was it, you know, that was where it ended.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
And you know, then other things happened, and it got
a little bit more complicated, but I think, well, no,
I don't mind at all. Here's chapter one. So my
mom sits me down, tells me I'm a brother. I'm
thirteen years old at the time. He comes the next
month for my birthday. And then within a couple of months,
(15:25):
my dad sits us down and says, I don't want
to be here anymore. And stranger than getting a brother
for Christmas? And how your dad say you no longer
wanted to be part of the family.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
He stayed.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
And this is where I, as an adult and a mom,
really had lots of questions, because then we never talked
about it, and as you can imagine, that's like a
pressure cooker with all of these you know, tensions going on,
but no release valve.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
There was just no release valve.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
And so I really wanted to understand how that happened
and why that was okay for my mom to stay.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
And so you grew up just the three of you,
your father, mother, and you, and then you find out
you have a brother at age thirteen. Is are you
and him now close or was it just kind of
like a meet and greet situation.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
No, that's a great question.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Yes, And one caveat is I did have two sisters
who lived on the East Coast, two girls from my
father's marriage, but they stayed on the East Coast with
their mom.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
So I was always aching for siblings in the house.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
So my mom's like, you have a brother.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
I was like, sweet, you know, she's pregnant and she's like, no,
I'm not pregnant.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I found him and yeah, So it's what was your
question again, I'm so sorry I lost.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Just asking what you and your brother's relationship is.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Oh. Yeah, so my brother is awesome. He was raised
by an incredible family and we had lots of years
where we were really really close. And then I think
to your point, when you have a child, you change
your perspective changes, And I think it's harder for him
now that he has this beautiful family to integrate our
family as closely as he had before, which I totally understand.
(17:08):
You know, it's adoption leads to a series of never
ending questions. And you know, questions sometimes are they create
complexity that you just don't want in your immediate family,
you know, right, And but he's wonderful and we do talk,
and you know, everything worked out for him, and you know,
I think it's great that he knows my mom and
that he knows the story as much as he can,
(17:29):
and you know, and that he's gone on to raise
an incredible family. Like for instance, I'm saying, this is
a proud auntie, but his oldest got into Sanford. You know,
everything's you know, he's everything's charging along.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
He's doing great. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
And that's the thing with adoption too, is sometimes you
can like break generational chains if you're not like ready
to mother by providing a family or giving him to
a family who is ready and for him to like
feel loved in that way. I'm just thinking back on
what you said about like the this being just one
generation before you, and how much has changed in society
(18:04):
since then. Like I literally was just on the phone
from my good friends last night who got divorced a
few years ago, and she is going through the process of,
like she wants to be a mom, and we're in
our older thirties and she can't find a man that
she likes, so she's like the process of like sperm
donor and like becoming a single mother, and like for
that to be something that we as women can like
(18:25):
own and choose now in comparison to what your mom
went through where she was like shamed for that and
like it wasn't even like an option for her to think, like,
oh I could just like raise this kid on my own.
It's just wild to see. It's it's cool, but it's
crazy to see how society is just like evolving and
(18:45):
it's not that long of a time ago.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
You know, it's not.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
And in fact, in my research, I reconnected with a
woman who lived in the orphanage with my mom, who
ended up in the same situation and decided to keep
her child. Her family disowned her. Her son never had
playdates with other families, like, it is incredible what she
went to and I'm having a conversation with her, going,
oh my gosh, I can't believe that so much has
(19:11):
changed in just a couple of decades. It's sad and
hopeful at the same time. Right, And I too, I
thought about it before I met my husband. I didn't
like my line up either of men, and I was
considering having a baby on my own as well, and
that would have.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Been just fine. Yeah, And that's the thing now, is.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Well, the thing with women in general is like we
have a ticking clock, Like we don't have a long
So if you're in your late thirties and you're single
and haven't found your person, that the fact that that's
an option and we have resources out there.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
To do that is it's cool. It's cool. It's very great, cool. Yeah,
it's great.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
And like the old company that I work for now
they pay for you to freeze your eggs. They have
a you know, a plan where you can.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Freeze your eggs.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
I love that's part of the dialogue because I had,
you know, second child and for two and that was
god awful, and so I just love that that we're
you know that we're putting women first, that we're.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Talking about menopause.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
You know that all these issues that were buried under
whatever society wanted us to look And if you're like,
I'm glad, we're just like breaking that ceiling and for
sure putting it all out there.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
So how did your mother, how she mothered you impact
how you mother your child?
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Oh gosh, do you have another hour? Oh gosh? You know,
Glyss notes I.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
One of the reasons I wanted to write the book
is because I do think I am a complex mom.
I have a mother wound that you know, we have
a generational mother wound going on here, right and with
my mom losing her mom and my mom being complex
and affected by her trauma, and so I in many
ways wrote the books that my son could understand me.
I didn't want him to wait as long as I
(20:55):
had to wait to figure this all out. And so
the way that I'm mother him is I think I'll
follow my mommy sword a little bit. I think I
sometimes over mother because I was so unmothered, and my
mom will admit that, and it doesn't come from a
lack of love.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
My mom was like I just didn't she didn't really
know what she was doing. She didn't have a model
for it.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
She was raised in a very strict religious environment that
had lots of structure, but not a lot of love
and you know, individualization.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
You know, they were little children's soldiers, if you will.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
And so I think I over mother sometimes. But on
the good side, I tell him I love him constantly.
I hug him all the time. I was rarely touched
as a child, just because that was the environment. So
there's some good things that come from it too, And
I think it's, you know, at its core, I was
inspired to write the book for him, And isn't that cool?
(21:50):
And I know he's proud of me, so that's good.
But yeah, I'm a complex mom, I'll give it, you know.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
And that's the thing I think we are. I mean,
we are all a product of how we were raised,
whether that be good or bad. And that's why it's
so cool that like now it's like really encouraged these
days to like go to therapy and like unpack your
past and so that you can better understand your current
self and your future self for your kids. And yeah,
(22:19):
we live in a in a better time where we
are encouraged to unpack and use that as a resource
for parenting or whatnot.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Absolutely, and yeah, I love the changes that we're making,
and I love that we're giving women voices, but mother
voices as well.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
It's a complex role.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
No, And I think even in I'm a little you know,
almost two decades older than you. I was in that
age when I was like in my twenties and thirties
where they're like, you can have it all, you can
do everything, and let me tell you something. We were dying,
but like we were doing too much, and you know,
Cheryl Sandberg would lean in. I got the message, but
the message was also a little off.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
You know, it's.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Easy for certain people to lean in and who have
tons of resources, but there were some of us who
didn't have those resources, who were working just as hard.
And so I wrote a series called lean Out where
you know where I here.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
I was.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
I had this huge corporate job. I loved my job.
I had a baby at home.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
I was racing to the city every day, and I
was giving myself IVF shots on you know, business trips
and in the bathroom. And after I had my second miscarriage,
I was like, what am I doing?
Speaker 2 (23:27):
This is insane.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
So each I think each you know, mother generation, we're
getting better and better, and I like that. I feel
like this kind of current age of working moms on
the younger side are making more of a stamp and saying, no,
I'm not doing all of it. At the same time,
I'm going to make choices. Do you feel that way that, yes,
there's a shift in that dialogue.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
I definitely see a shift. I think like just as
women in general were kind of like encouraged to wear
a lot of hats, and like I think us being
you know, natural nurtures and and I'm like a natural
like perfectionist. Like it's it's hard not to want to
be good at everything and like accomplish everything and say
you can, and but then the reality is you can't.
(24:11):
Like I when I had my son, my business changed
a little bit. When I had my daughter, it.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Changed a lot.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
And by choice. It was not like my husband telling
me you need to let go so you compair in
our kids. It was it was me being like, Okay,
in this season of life, I can't do it all
and that's okay, and giving myself like grace there where
I feel like hustle culture, even in the last ten
years has really changed. But hustle culture kind of like
(24:40):
demands that you just give it your all to everything
and you can do it all, Like you can be
a great mom, a great wife, and like run a
business and YadA, YadA, YadA and still be active and
like all these things that you love to do, but
you just can't. And so there are there are sacrifices
that you have to make. And yeah, I think our
generation is like learning that and giving ourselves a little
(25:01):
more grace of like, okay, I can't.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
I think so I love that and this season of
life and you know, identifying that there are chapters and
that you don't have to deplete yourself in certain chapters
you're doing certain things and that's okay.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
I love that. I love that.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
I think I have to remind myself of the chapters
because I had kid I didn't have kids late, but
in the South, I had kids later, and so I
sent my twenties like starting my business and building it up,
and then thirty two, I get pregnant and I kind
of would compare myself to my mom who she had
(25:40):
me at thirty but by the time I was in kindergarten,
she like started a brand new career and became really successful,
and I think I like kind of beat myself up
of like I'm really not like financially where my parents
were when they had children or YadA, YadA, YadA. But
it's like, well, I I chose to have kids later
in my thirties, and I do have to relinquish some
(26:01):
like financial freedom because of that. But like when I'm
forty and my kids are in kindergarten, I have more time,
like maybe I can like push into something bigger and
better and like that be that season for that and
this is just not the season to excel in a career, yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
I think, And good for you for owning that and
accepting it and you know and recognizing that you're doing
really good work, you know ye raising these humans and
that's hard while taking care of yourself.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
I hope.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yes, I yes, And thankfully I have support from I
have an awesome husband, and I literally work in a gym,
so it's kind of nice. Like if I need to
like work out, I can like just go to work.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
I love it, That's right.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yes, Okay, So we are getting to the end of
my child's nap, so I want to ask you.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Some questions before we love off.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Speaking of seasons of life. So I have these questions
that I ask my guests at the end of every episode.
I haven't been asking them as much this season, but
I feel called to kind of throw them at you.
I didn't care, but here we go, okay, and I'm
going to try and rewrite them towards like your story,
(27:18):
but I don't know if it's going to come out right.
We'll see, Okay. What is something that you really love
about yourself as a mother right now?
Speaker 3 (27:28):
My desire and commitment to evolving, to his maturity and
his desire for independence.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
That's hard, Yeah, especially when you have to let go
because you've been like their caretaker and then they get
older and you're like.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
No watching, Yeah, opening the door and letting them fail
or you know, learn the lessons because it's so deeply
connected to your heart is is big.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
So taking out the mother role of that question. What
is something that you just love about yourself in general
right now?
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Oh? That's so sweet.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
I love what my book is doing in terms of
the conversations that it's sparking. I just I absolutely love it.
I'm really proud of it. Super proud man.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
That's amazing. What is something that you're really looking forward
to in the rest of this year?
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Taking a break and going to Europe with my husband?
Where are you going?
Speaker 3 (28:24):
We're going to Switzerland and the south of France and
south of France and then Paris. And because my son's
going to a camp and we haven't done this. The
last time we did it was in twenty nineteen, right
before the pandemic, so we have not been on a
vacation like just the two of us like this, And
oh my gosh, what now six years almost?
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Yeah, it's time.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
It's time.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
That's okay, if you could leave my listeners, Actually no,
I'm gonna end with that one. My next question, what
is something that you're just currently kind of obsessed with
right now? Like we were talking about pop culture before
we press record, but like it can be something so
silly as like a food you love or like a
show your binging or whatever, just something.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
You know, I'm gonna tell you. And it's a good one.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
I because my son was a child, I can't believe
that I was not addicted to the show.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
But I am going through a total gossip Girl moment.
And yeah, and I'm having.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Really big feelings about Chuck Bass and I need to just.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Season one or season two.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
But you know, his his glow up, I guess the
kids call it the glow up is really intense for me.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
I think it's just because I'm fifty and I didn't watch.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
It because he was a baby at the time. But
Gossip of a Girl and I are having a really
good time.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
It's a phenomenal show. Also, as you're watching, you kind
of realize how horrible Serena is.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Oh, she's terrible. It's the worst.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
And like they kind of in the beginning, paint her
out to be, you know, the protagonist, and you're like.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
No, Sarena's like not it. It's all it's Chuck and Blair.
I'm Jack and Blair.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
They are it.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
They are it.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
And then I'm going a little anecdote because when I
find something I really like, I go double, I go
really deep. So maybe we'll do a pop culture podcast
just you and I next time, because I'm all over
the board. But what I really love about this is
their chemistry. And actually, you know, they rewrote the show
after they did the pilot because they had such Chuck
and Blair had such chemistry that they rewrote the entire
(30:27):
show and they became the central characters. Because Leyton and
Ed had such on screen chemistry, he was supposed to
be this like bad boy villain character that wasn't center center.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
I read that. Yeah, I've gone all the way deep
on this and I just.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Love watching two people connect like that on screen and
then millions of people get to enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
I just think it's cool.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Yeah, I just think and I try and imagine if
you're an actor and you get that part and you
find yourself.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Like in that moment, how cool is that? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Because when they introduced Chuck, he was a bad boy,
he was bounding it a terrible haircut, his outfit was,
his clothes were terrible, and then they you know, did
the glow up on him, and he just he owns
that part, which I just think is cool. It's amazing
what a little like wardrobe and globe will do for anyone. Okay,
(31:17):
my last question, and what is something Okay, if you
had to leave a little post it note of like
encouragement or like a little like you got this post
it note on our listener's mirrors.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
What would it say your story matters? Love it.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Your story does matter.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Your story matters. We all have a story to tell them.
They all matter. And then and yeah, go.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Ahead, I was gonna say, and get to know other
people's stories so that you, like we said earlier, and
like better understand the people in your life, the people.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
In your life.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
And then in the end, when you do that work,
like you really own your story and you know you
do something with it.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Whatever your podcast, you journal about it, you write a book,
I don't care what it is.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Then you realize your story isn't about you anymore. So
you asked me, what's the really cool thing going on now?
Is that I put my story in the world.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
But now it's not even really about me. It's about
what other people do with it. And that's magic.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
You know, this is so this is so dumb that
pop culture me is like connecting that with Taylor Swift please.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
So she wrote this song all too Well back in
like twenty twelve, twenty eleven. I'm upsessed with Taylor Swift
and it's kind of like a thing. But it's like
this song that wasn't even supposed to be a single,
and but it was released on her Red album and
like all of her fans were obsessed with it and
they made it what it was, like really popular because
of the storytelling is true story about her and Jake
(32:43):
Joonhall whatever. Well, now years later, when she's doing her rewrites,
she releases a ten minute version of that song and
and it even more so with ed added lyrics and
more story, and it even more so is like the
fan favorite. And then recently when she released her last album,
the last song of the album reflects on the journey
(33:06):
of all too well. The song it's called the Manuscript,
and she's like, it's the whole point is you know
that manuscript, that original writing was about me, but now
the story's not even about me anymore. It's for y'all.
It's about y'all. And anyways, that was like such a
long winded way of saying, like, yes, your story doesn't
become about you anymore.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
I'm so glad you showed that, because I'm flying, I'm
going to a book event in Ohio and so I'm
going to double click into this like I double clicked
and Chuck Bass, I love that.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Thank you for sharing. Yeah, And it is like that.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
It is when you put your energy out there and
you do the work right, and you're just curious and
you follow your curiosity. It leads you to just incredible places.
And that's really all I did. I just became really
curious about my family.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Also, I've noticed, like with this podcast, like I don't
know who's listening. It could be like just my mom,
or it could be you know, a random stranger on
the internet. But I've found that even with this podcast
or with just like sharing things on social media, I'll
get like dms from people that are like, like I
we could probably talk about this a whole other episode,
but I've I've lost four babies, I've had four miscarriages.
(34:13):
Oh I'm sorry, it's okay, But I have women that
I do not know all the time because I've shared
that those stories on the podcast slide into my dms
and be like, I'm currently miscarrying. What do I do?
Or how should I feel? Or what like what steps
did you take next? And it's crazy to think, like
my miscarriage is yes, they are deeply like ingrained in
(34:36):
my soul and I'll never like get past that trauma.
But I can use it to help someone else, and
so it's not really about me anymore. It's about these
other women who get to hopefully have a resource for
what they're going through.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
So anyways, I'm so glad you're doing that because those miscarriages,
people don't talk about it.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
I think there's so much shame in those and hurt
and yeah, I remember writing about mine a couple of
years ago.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Yeah, people, there's just so many women who experience that
and they just don't have anywhere to go, right, So
keep sharing that, I know.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
But that is the magic. You just you just nailed it.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
You know, it's no longer about you. You're helping others
and that's that's just awesome.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
And you are helping others too on your podcast and
through your book. What is the best way for my
listeners to connect with you? And obviously I'll put like
the links in the show notes for you listeners so
you can like buy her book and listen to her podcast.
But what's the best way that they connect with you?
Speaker 3 (35:31):
My all my handles are by Jennifer Griffith dot com,
So be why Jennifer Griffith dot com. There's another Jennifer
Griffith out there. Shout out to her. She's an author
as well. She's got a lot of books out there.
But yeah, we're it's hard. You know, we're a seoing
each other like crazy. So so I am.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
I know. I was like, gosh, should I change my name?
Speaker 3 (35:53):
Uh so buy Jennifer Griffith dot com. And that's Instagram
my website. I'm on substack as well and Facebook a
little bit on LinkedIn, but the website has it all.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Yeah, perfect, but listeners, I will link that in the
show notes. And Jennifer was soiga getting to know you
and we will have to like connect again in the
future about pop culture.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
Kelly, Oh, I don't come talk to you about it anytime.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Yes, it's like a passion of mine.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
So well, me too. Do you read the Daily Mail?
Speaker 3 (36:19):
I do?
Speaker 1 (36:19):
And did you like I'm like big on following like
page six on Instagram, like like it's really bad. But
basically like gossip Girl in real life, I follow her Dumi.
I don't know if you follow them, you got to
follow them. She knows like she knows all the like
celebrity tea and she basically releases it on Instagram as
(36:42):
if she is gossip Girl.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Oh my gosh, okay, I'm.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
In that era. You need to like connect with her again.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
This Gossip Girl just came on my plate and it's
a big It's been a big moment. You know. My
husband's like, oh my gosh, are you going up to
watch that again? I'm like, yeah, yeah, no, I'm.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
All all the way in chair.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
What season are you on?
Speaker 2 (36:58):
I'm going to admit something I watched.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
I watched it all the way through, and I'm rewatching
it again because I would fall asleep. So now I
have to watch it when I'm like not falling asleep.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
I understand that it's coming.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
It is.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Well, okay, Thank you so much for joining me and listeners.
I will talk to you next week.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Thanks for listening to Heart and Soul. If this episode
encouraged you in any way, please leave a review on
Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Talk to
you next week.
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